But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcase where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, and the Empyrean Series, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Season 7 Episode 4: DCC Book 2 Carl's Doomsday Scenario Part 2!
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Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read, and talk about it. For our seventh season, we're reading Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman! This episode covers Book 2, Carl's Doomsday Scenario, Chs 15-end, with Jessica as the vet and Kritter as the first timer, and special guest Anne, who has read all but one of the DCC books!
Anne's Website: https://www.annekostecki.com/
Anne's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annekosteckidesign/
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome And Book Two Setup
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and talk about it.
SPEAKER_04I'm your host, Critter.
SPEAKER_00And I'm your host Jess. And welcome to season seven, episode four, where we're talking about the second half of book two in Dungeon Crawler Carl, which is Carl's Doomsday Scenario. We've got me here, we've got Critter here, and we've got a new friend to join us today. Welcome, Anne.
SPEAKER_04Welcome Ann. Hi, I'm so glad to be here. Yay! So Anne is a friend of mine. Um what's weird is we became mutuals on TikTok before we realized that we actually had a mutual real life friend and that we both live pretty much in the same city. And so now we hang out, you know, periodically.
SPEAKER_00Like we just amazing.
Meet Anne And Her Fantasy Art
SPEAKER_04Great. Yeah, I was just at Ann's house for an Oscar's party the other weekend, and it was fabulous. Um, so yes, Ann and I are friends. Anne is an artist. So the reason I found her on TikTok is she had this epic dragonstone painting that she was like, you know, dragonstone from Game of Thrones. Um, so that was the first, I think, artwork that I saw of hers. And, you know, I followed because it was awesome. I've actually got it on my wall right there. Um, but yeah, uh, and so yeah, Anne is amazing. She uh she has a uh business that she runs with her art. I'll put her website in the description of this video, and I'm gonna let Anne tell you about what she does uh now. And and she brought a little artwork piece. I didn't know.
SPEAKER_01Do you recognize this character?
SPEAKER_04If you're on YouTube, you can see that it is a Persian cat with a little purple tiara and some glasses.
SPEAKER_01And some accessories. Uh-huh. And um, I'm primarily a watercolor artist. I've been painting for a really long time. Um, I do art fairs, I sell, you know, original paintings as well as like stickers, stationary, temporary tattoos, other stuff like that. Um, a lot of my artwork is fantasy inspiration, which is fits right in with the podcast. Um, I was a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, I think, like a lot of us growing up, and that was kind of like the gateway for me to get into fantasy. And I really like Dungeon Crawler Carl because I love apocalyptic stuff and like dystopia. So that's kind of my flavor. So yeah, I'm wearing my achievement shirt. I don't think it's a new achievement. And also, I am very much a traditional book reader, so I've never listened to the audiobooks, and I know it's supposed to be a great experience. I know, I know. So I I I want to, but the problem is audiobooks are really slow for me because I read really fast.
SPEAKER_00So you can change the setting because I have the same problem as FYI.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, audiobooks are good, but like I I sometimes I get really impatient and I'm just like, I have to read. And I I really like real books too, rather than like Kindle.
SPEAKER_00So that's just like you know, why read all reading is good reading in here.
Why Generative AI Crosses Lines
SPEAKER_04Amen. Amen. So true. Okay, well, welcome and very excited. So, given Anne's presence here, we thought we would talk about kind of a hot button issue for butt are there updates. As a local artist, Anne is now combating with this new thing that I think all three of us are not a fan of, which is generative AI. Um, yes, we're gonna talk about AI. Don't worry, we're not gonna talk about it for very long. So, Anne, how much do you hate AI and why?
SPEAKER_01So, um, yeah, I think in the art space specifically, AI doesn't really have uh a point. Like, that's like the best way to put it because I think most people would agree with us. As art consumers, we like things that were created by people with a story behind it. And AI, I mean, my biggest problem with AI is that it is scraping data from artists without their permission and amalgamating it into new Frankenstein creations. So um, that's my big issue with it. And also, I think that the end result almost always looks really cheap, like fake. And like I know that people are like, well, it's getting better and better, but like that's not the point. Like, to me, that's not the point. So, other people, I've heard the arguments that AI makes art more accessible to people, but art is one of the most accessible hobbies. Art is like music, it's dance, it's you know, sketching, drawing. People sketch with their mouths who don't have hands. Uh, dolphins, elephants, and other animals can draw. So, like, art is accessible in my opinion. So, you just have to practice. And, you know, there's also the environmental concerns, data centers, like that. That's something that bothers me on a tree hugger level. I also grew up with Fern Gully being a big inspiration in my life. So like I try to be a you know sustainable. A lot of my artwork is actually upcycled painting materials. So, like cool. For me, I just that on another level, the environmental level also bothers me. So I'm not a fan, yeah, you know, that's yeah, no sense.
SPEAKER_04It's like I think the I didn't realize this whenever I whenever this started becoming popular, people posting these AI images, AI filters on TikTok, all this other stuff. Um, but the fact that it trains itself on real people's work is just it's kind of sickening, especially because people are using it for things like, for example, in the book space, there are some authors who were like, okay, I'm self-publishing, so I'm going to make the cover of my book from AI, right? Because I don't want to like commission something, I don't want to do it myself. And to me, that's just like it just gives me the heebie-jeebies. People are using AI to write books, to write scripts, and they all feel like a robot wrote them. And I think it's not just the generative AI either. I think it's people are starting to rely on it in like everyday life. Instead of Googling, they'll they'll go to Chat GPT. And for example, like, and it's it's terrible because the other day I was like, so this is like a personal anecdote, but we're looking to replace our deck because it's literally falling apart. And I Google, because I've had some issues with that, like, do I need a permit? Do I not need a permit? Like the county I'm in is a real B about that stuff. And so I was like, okay, do I need oh no, it's not the deck. I have to replace the siding. So I Google, do I need a permit to replace my siding? And the of course, the stupid AI result comes up first, and it's like, yes, you need a permit to replace your siding in this county. And I was like, gosh dang it. But of course, I never rely on the AI because it's so much trash. And I'm glad that I didn't because I actually went to the relevant website, clicked down, scrolled down, and you know what? I don't. So the answer it gave me was literally the opposite of the correct answer. So I'll say before you say before you rely on AI for anything, understand that it's probably wrong, whether it's factually wrong or ethically wrong because of the environmental impacts or because it's stealing stuff from real people. So that's where I'm at. Yeah, Jessica, do you have any thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Uh all of that. So I live in an area where uh data centers are popping up fast and loose, and there's lots of concerns about the environmental impact in our neighborhoods. Uh, you know, that is quite literally happening where I live. So it's a real thing. Um, I myself am not creative. I can't do stick figures, but I know a lot of creative creatives, and um, whether it be voice actors, whether it be cartoonists, no matter who, um they're all feeling the encroachment of this really gross product. I I mean, it's just how I feel. Uh, I I find it I understand the impetus to advance. Like, I don't really take issue with that. I'm kind of an early adopter personality. Like, yes, let's let's see where we can make the technology work for us, but when it robs humans of human experiences, that's where I, you know, kind of draw the line. And it it's endangering the livelihoods of people that I genuinely care about. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen.
SPEAKER_04We all agree. Amen.
SPEAKER_01And and so tie it back to oh, go ahead. I was gonna say about the inaccuracy thing. Like, my biggest issue with AI is that if I do a quick search, like how long does this food last in the fridge? The AI answer is often wrong. Yeah. And yeah, it will leave out important information. Like, for instance, like rice grows bacteria really quickly when you cook it. It only lasts, I mean, I think the FDA says three days in the refrigerator. Just fun, I just want to let everybody know that. If you Google it, how long does this dish last in the fridge? It will give you the wrong amount of information. So yeah, like be safe on the floor.
SPEAKER_00You know, so I again, because I'm not a creative person, I work in a very uh type A job, I guess. And so AI is happening in my workspaces as well. And even though I am an early technology adopter, I have a really, really hard time with it because accuracy is such a huge aspect of the work I do. Uh so Google but verify was already kind of our standard, uh, because uh in my line of work, a lot of times you have to start researching topics you don't have a previous knowledge of. So it is acceptable to Google it and then find an acceptable primary source. However, uh, I much like Critter was saying, have seen plenty of people who just ask Chat GPT and now and don't do the verify piece anymore. Plug it in. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not that's not real. No, no, no, we do. And I've disabled it on my browsers because I can't stand it.
SPEAKER_04I need to do that. I keep being like, oh shit, that's the AI result. Like, I need to disabled it.
SPEAKER_00It's such an easy thing to do for me, right? Like, I don't need to just be instantly irritated every time I open my browser.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and now it's like every app I open, Canva, for example. So, like to make thumbnails for YouTube to like it's you know, I'll I'll upload an image and then I want to like remove the background. That's what I use Canva for, like you know, the for fonts, for headings, stuff like that. But now, like the first tab that comes up is like AI, what it wants me to like generate images with AI. And I'm like, no, like, can I just can we not? Can we just not, please? Uh so it's interesting, just the absolute philosophical divide we have, where some people are like, oh, it's not a big deal. I'm just I'm just using it in the early stages of development of X, Y, and Z and all this other stuff. And then there's other people like me, and I feel like you guys, and Mr. Critter, who's a software engineer who just literally detests it with all every fiber of his being. Yeah. Um, so it's like if we go to parties, I have to be like, we can't talk about AI. Like that's how passionate he is. He freaking hates it. Um, so yeah, anyways, uh, you know, if you disagree with us for whatever reason and you want to cite your sources that aren't the AI results, let us know in the comments. But um, you know, I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong. I'm just here to tell you that I don't, I'm not gonna believe you.
SPEAKER_00Um I will tell you, I will tell you my one devil advocate, which kind of touches on what Ann said, and then I'll let it go. Um, as somebody who deals with a little bit, what is it called? Is it a fantasia where you you have trouble visualizing things? I think that's what it's called. So I have I have seen value in that to generate an image for myself to visualize something, not to create art that I'm even keeping just to help me visualize.
SPEAKER_04Interesting.
SPEAKER_00So in that way, I think that's probably the only way that I've used it in that way.
SPEAKER_04It's like an accessibility thing, sort of.
SPEAKER_00Yep, which is silly. Um, it's a silly thing, but I mean, they always commission an artist to draw it for you. But if I wanted so you know, I do when I do tabletop RPGs and things like that, like I I I purchase images. You know, I don't that's not what I use that for. However, if I want to try and figure out what I think something will look like in a D space, sometimes that can help me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's interesting. It's an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered.
SPEAKER_00But it does not even come close to wiping out the threat that I feel, the very real threat that I feel that poses to the creative people I love. God.
SPEAKER_01It's not just that either, and like not to go off on a tangent, but it is like a financial bubble. Like if you look at how much money is being poured into AI, it is untold sums. Like things have not been invested in like this. I just I am like genuinely concerned that when a lot of these companies go bust, like who's on the hook for it? Like, it could cause problems.
SPEAKER_04There's an AI bubble in the economy that I don't want to even consider right now. Uh crazy money is all I have to say. It is, it is, it's scary. Uh what a world, what a fun topic.
SPEAKER_00So speaking of, you know, antichrist AIs, crawler carl.
SPEAKER_04Oh my gosh, that actually is kind of oh my god, the segue. Well done with the segue.
SPEAKER_00I peaked, I'm gonna be downhill the rest of the night.
SPEAKER_04I love it. I love it. Yes, dungeon crawler Carl. Let's do it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Boom. So, Anne, I would like to this, I'm gonna grill you just gently. Okay, just a little bit. Um, so when we go through, I think you said that sometimes you've listened to a couple episodes, so you you generally know what we do. Or okay, great. Yeah. So uh for this series, every time we've had guests, it's been amazing to have all of these guests. I like to just start with a couple of like show your receipts. So obviously you're a fangirl, which is a huge spoon because this is definitely a fangirl to safe. Uh my questions, and you've already answered what medium you uh devoured it in. Uh, my questions are what's your origin story with Dungeon Crawler Carl? How did you, you know, how long ago did you read it for the first time? How did you happen to come across it?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so about a year ago, my friend Miranda um recommended the book to me. And I had heard a lot about it um through book talk and like a lot of like Instagram to people really loving this book. And I will be honest with you, things that people really hype up, I tend to be like, can't be that good, can't be that great. You know what I mean? Like I had been burned before, and I usually am very skeptical as a reader. And um, I picked it up and I read the first one, and instantly from like the first few chapters, I was like, I love Carl.
SPEAKER_04Amen. I fight you for him. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01I immediately was like, yes, and then it all the love only deepened the more I read the book. Amazing. And um, and I was like actually surprised because, like I said, I had been really skeptical. There had been some other series I had tried I didn't really liked, and like this one I really liked because I think it's kind of like it's fast. Like, you know, like the world is introduced at a really good pace. And um, even though there's a lot of stuff that I don't quite know what's going on, because I've never played DD, and I've haven't played a lot of RPGs, and I think the only lit RPG I've actually read before is Ready Player One, and that was like years ago. So, like that's kind of my background.
Drunk Donut And A New Rivalry
SPEAKER_00Amazing. So you're kind of like between Critter and I. So Critter's got the Ready Player One in their back pocket. I had not. This is my very first lit RPG. I have a very little bit of tabletop RPG and almost no gaming, and critters got you know, background with gaming, fair amount of gaming experience. So nice. That's cool. Yeah, that's that's it. That's all the grilling. You got 100%. That's okay. That's perfect. I love it. Um, so as we go into this, I have this one's really loosey-goosey, critter. We're gonna bounce around wherever you want to be. I do want to, I do feel like we should start out with the wonder and joy that is drunk donut, because that is where we picked up after the break. So, as a huge donut stand, how did you feel about our our little drunken donut?
SPEAKER_04Okay, I okay, it was funny. The narrator did such a good job like slurring her words, like as it was happening. Um, so it was really easy to visualize this cat and also the way he was like, she hated it. She was like, and then she took another sip, like it was so relatable. Um, because it was like probably her first time drinking alcohol, right? Like, I think that we've witnessed. Um, but what I did not expect was what came after, which was the reveal that they're pinning her now against Lucia Marr's dogs because of the stuff that she said while she was drunk. Like, yeah, like of course a cat's gonna be like those gross dogs or whatever. And now it's like this this feud, um, which I think is gonna pan out. I'm curious to see how it pans out because Lucia Marr seems like a real piece of work. Um, I mean, she was a kid, she is was a kid, and so it's just gonna be I don't know, I don't know. I'm like I'm nervous. I'm nervous about it because she's uh she seems like a bit of a contender.
SPEAKER_00But if anybody needs a good arch nemesis, it's donut, right?
SPEAKER_04Like true for the for the plot.
SPEAKER_00Yes. We do a lot for the plot. Um and would you say that uh so critter, I've already outed her that you know, donut, at least currently, is her favorite to my knowledge. No.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, Carl.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I apologize, I stand corrected. Okay, it's fine. Um book one, you were very much, I'm here for the donut.
SPEAKER_04That's fair. No, I think I went into it knowing there was a cat, and that so I was like, the cat was a big draw for me. But then I met Carl and sure, kind of like Ann, the rest was history, I think.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that makes it easy, right? And Carl is easy to love.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. B is a fool. Sorry, you were asking Ann something, and I interrupted.
SPEAKER_00I was just gonna say who is your favorite, and she was like Carl.
SPEAKER_01Like, well, yes, I'm because I was like, Carl is is the main attraction in this picture. So I love Carl.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04He's like one of my book husbands. I think, like, you know, I say like Pear and Avara from The Wheel of Time, which I don't think, and you haven't read The Wheel of Time, correct?
SPEAKER_01No, I'm sorry. My brother's read the whole series, and he's like, When are you gonna read it? And I'm like, someday. It's okay.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, so I have there's a character in there that is one of my book husbands, and I think at this point I can safely say that Carl is one of my book husbands. And it it's not an award I give away like we share, we will share. We'll be we'll be uh what are they first sisters? Uh yeah, sister. Sister-wise, like five.
The Talk Show Turns Deadly
SPEAKER_00Um so I yeah, I just I got a big kick out of Drunk Donut. Um, I also think that it's fun, you know, with us splitting the books in halves, it kind of seems like every episode we get to talk about a live show experience. And so for this half of this book, we went to the Ripper Wonton show. And how to whatever extent you'd like to share with us, Critter, how do you feel it went compared to previous live appearances for Carl and Donut?
SPEAKER_04This is the one where there was a failed assassination attempt against them, correct?
SPEAKER_00It was it it was successful, just the wrong target.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Um, that was shocking, I think. Like, I don't know why I thought, oh yeah, they're in the, you know, they're immune from all damage because they're on the surface of Earth. Like, that was a stupid thing to assume. Um, and like it's funny how they'll I assume on rereads, you guys, if you reread it, you might have like, well, actually, no, I guess I also reread the passage. So on the second read, I was like, oh, they mentioned like this is a rental trailer. You can tell because X, Y, and Z. And then later it becomes important that it's a rental trailer. And they mentioned that the food is weird. Like, it's because the food is for the lady who ended up who was supposed to be in the trailer. Like, I don't know, all of it was little hints about what was coming. And so on a second read, I appreciated it even more. But yeah, I was shocked by that. I thought it was obviously it derailed the entire interview, and and like I don't even remember what they talked about anymore, other than the fact that Carl went on like the rant about politics. Yeah, okay, and you go ahead. Like, I remember that Carl kind of like popped off.
SPEAKER_01I thought it was kind of interesting that like right before all this went down, they were talking about sedition. Like on the show. Yes, they were. Like uh Carl was like, hey, if you don't like your government, rise up and overthrow them. And that's big. Yes, that's the Carl I know. He just says crazy stuff. And he does it because he has no sense of self-preservation.
SPEAKER_00Well, he's in an he's in an apocalyptic world.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What's the harm?
SPEAKER_04I feel like I have to push back on him not having a sense of self-preservation because I want to say it was the last uh read, but he got it was whenever he got awarded an anklet. I can't remember. But anyways, the AI's like, anklets are a little much. Like they're gaudy, and like you would think that they would accessorize a foot, but they suck. And because Carl read between the lines that the AI doesn't like an anklet, he gave it the donut. So like there are some ways that he's like, you know, forming, like molding himself to accommodate this ridiculous scenario, which is what surprised me about this talk show that he just, you know, just said, go ahead and overthrow your government out of the like.
SPEAKER_00He said the quiet part.
SPEAKER_04Mordecai is gonna be so mad.
SPEAKER_01I actually love it when Mordecai's mad. I don't know why. It's so funny. There's so much comedic interactions, like when they get mad at each other and like the conversations that they have, I'm just like always laughing out loud. Yeah, it's just awesome.
SPEAKER_00So I think Mordecai is probably my favorite mentor, like right up there with the mentor from Karate Kid, you know, just everything about the Mordecai Carl dynamic is delicious. I love it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh to your point, the madder Carl makes him, the more fun I'm having.
SPEAKER_01It's just great because, like, you know, that's a great comedic device. Like, there's the tension between donut being like afraid of the gore and stuff, and like getting messy, and then Carl's just like ramming into things. And like, that's another thing that like in this book specifically, they really up that the ante with the like the viscera, the gore, the like this this descriptions of the smells and stuff, and that stuff like physically revolts me, but like it sets the scene, right? It's like I don't know, giant rotting sea monster.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and then you fall into it, and then it and then it pops. Oh my god, yeah. No, but it to it turned up the turned up the gross factor, cringe feelings, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, yes. And on a little bit more of a serious note, the reason I brought up the live show experience, um, I think I've mentioned it it when we talked about it in the past. Like I feel like every time we get a new live show interaction, we get a bigger peek behind the curtain kind of thing. And so the thing that really stood out to me for this half on reread was I feel like this live show experience showed us more of those interracial dynamics that are happening, the intergalactic racial dynamics that are happening, and where they're frayed and just straight up tense. Um, we saw a lot more of that, or at least I did, more than I got out of previous live shows that we've seen for them. So yeah, I liked um I liked that Carl kind of upped his game. He's no longer uh just planting, well, I mean, he thinks that he's planting seeds, but that was pretty overt. Yeah, you know, the call out first edition was pretty blatant. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Definitely I realize that I also have one of Ann's paintings right here, but you can only see the wing. So yeah, it's a dragon. So, yes, there's a dragon in this episode.
Hobby Reveal And Stolen Memories
SPEAKER_01I think it's a lot of dragons. I was gonna say, I know on previous episodes you guys mentioned the two hobbies that they were getting and they revealed it. They did. How did you feel about the reveal of the hobbies?
SPEAKER_04I felt semi-vindicated because I think with Sesta Punta, I I mentioned like, well, it sounds Spanish. And so I tried it. I was like, okay, you know, maybe it's like a siesta. That's why I guessed it involved. I know, dumb. Um but the fact that it's kind of like, you know, South American, I think, in origin makes me feel pretty good. Um Central or South American, one or the other. Um, so, anyways, that felt I felt fine about that. And I like it that it's like the first of all, that it has an origin in Carl's life where he like he was chugging things on like the Antarctic ice slab or whatever, like years ago. So they clearly have access to his memories, which is wild.
SPEAKER_00Um does that feel very like slumdog millionaire to you, or is that just me?
SPEAKER_04What I've never seen Slumdog Millionaire.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. I know before I answer the question, and do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I know what you mean. Um it kind of feels like like fate, like you know, like said, but the AI has access to his memories and like his feelings and thoughts and stuff, which is so creepy. And like playing out it playing out like that is very cool, but it's also kind of like a violation, I think. Very much because like it has if it has access to that, then it has access to everything that's ever happened to him and everything that he's ever done. So, like that's I mean, but that's the mountain that he's fighting.
SPEAKER_00Like, that's the emotional mountain that he's fighting, right? Like, they have legitimately taken everything from them, they have no privacy, they they have no belongings, they have no freedom, they are they are a product of the game now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which is so every time you like think about this book, it's like, damn, this is dark. But then when you're reading it, it's like this is so much fun. So fun so dark under the surface.
SPEAKER_01There's a I was gonna say there's a lot of like dichotomies and tension in this book where like it's very dark humor, obviously, but like um it's kind of like absurdist too, because like you know, they're doing it feels meaningless, like they're just doing this for entertainment, but like people are dying, and like the stakes are high. Yeah, you know, we've already encountered characters that have died that had family die, and we had to witness that, and like it's just for played off from like laughs for everybody, or like, you know, like drawing the little, for example, the little fathom dwarf who got his arm bit off, and it's like a joke, but also it's a little kid who got his arm bit off.
SPEAKER_04Like that's me, like that was such a it was just a silly situation, and then it's like, oh yeah, the healing potion didn't grow his arm back, so he's just left like that now. I don't know, it just it's interesting the way these things play out. It's you know, because the Benjamin the lizard or whatever that he was concerned with was like funny, but also like it was sad.
SPEAKER_01It was really sad, like so much sad.
SPEAKER_00I um so I had I I feel like again, I we tested this on this again a little bit leading up to this, but again, going into this half, I feel like it ramps up a little bit more. The almost manic quality of the preloaded NPC storylines, uh, speaking to that absurdist and dark humor piece. Um, you know, so we've got the elves when they first encounter Carl, they have been preloaded matrix style uh with background story, and they have the story about a pedo, and that means that they instantly hate, you know, donut on site, um gum gum and the prostitutes and uh just all of it, uh right up to the um climax of the book, which is about remix telling his story and how really kind of maniacal that came across because he had to play his role, he had to tell his story to satisfy the game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It was super dark. And like, do you guys have access to the uh what's it called backstage with the pineapple cabaret pieces? Is that in the audiobook or is it only in the physical book?
SPEAKER_00You're gonna just say no. Okay. Well I don't have physical, I have Kindle and audio.
NPC Programming And Existential Horror
SPEAKER_01So in the I think it might be on the Kindle versions, maybe not though. In the physical books, they have little chapters at the end of all the books that give you backstage at the like NPC perspectives. Oh yeah, I'm dropping some lore here. Um, it will really deepen the experience because they talk about like how these characters are like a little bit self-aware that they used to be alive in the universe. Yeah. I have critter, don't you have a fish? I do, yeah. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. I mean, the books I got, I get them off in the library. Um, they all have that at the end, and it's all it's it's extremely disheartening because, like, you know, that's to me is part of the darkest part of the storylines, is that all of these organisms used to exist, aliens, etc., and then they've been wiped like computers and then implanted with fake memories, storylines, and stuff like that. And some of them have a semblance of consciousness underneath all that, and they're like, they're like, something's wrong, something's wrong.
SPEAKER_00And they're like, it's kind of like and their consciousness is like bucking that programming.
SPEAKER_01It's like the Truman show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So like they're like, I can tell something's wrong, and like it it like unravels, right? And it's very interesting. Like, I we always like those kinds of stories where like it's like the matrix, like you know, the Truman show where the universe has has conspired against you almost.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, so and it's layers of the onion. So I I like that we're seeing the story from the dungeon level, from the earth level, from the galaxy level. We're seeing it from the crawler level, from the NPC level, from the galaxy level, like all of those different layers and how they interact and how they have to navigate them to try and get through to the end.
SPEAKER_04Um so you mentioned like how all these things are like preloaded, and that got me thinking, and I don't they may have explained it in the book, but now I'm like second guessing. But the remix storyline, right? They said that Mrs. Featherfall or what the the lady. Miss Quill. Miss Quill. Miss Quill like was finishing a spell that had been cast by generations prior or something something they referred to it as hereditary, it was three generations, right? And so, like, are those previous crawls like, or was that just part of the story? You know, are they saying that it's been generations past, or is it just like we're just we're or is it just lore that they download? Lore, like that they're saying, oh, this is round three of this extremely long spell, when in fact it's round one, but whatever, you know, like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I think it's that that's my guess, is that it's they're pre they're like loading them with information saying, Oh, this is some ancient thing that you've been working on forever for years, and it's just like nothing just part of the part of the crawl.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, it's just it's it's because those some characters go for like, for example, Mordecai. Obviously, he's like unique, but like he's been in the past dungeons, granted for like certain companies and maybe not for other companies, but that's because he wasn't created, right?
SPEAKER_00Like he was a crawler, right?
SPEAKER_04Right. So then the question, but but so was remix.
SPEAKER_00Right, but they tampered with his memories, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so it's just really it's it's it it's a mind F where you're just like, okay, is this real? Is this not real? And I uh it's real enough because it's gonna blow up 75 square miles or whatever it was. Um, but yeah, it was crazy. That was so can I just say like the way this book played out, the way we separated it from one chapters one to fourteen to the 15 to end was it was it read like two different books. Like the fact that the circus storyline, yes, that could have been its own book.
SPEAKER_00And then I had to remind myself that that was this book because we met um Batista, and I was like, oh, oh, that's right. This was this was this book.
SPEAKER_04Because then like the transition was we're gonna go into the Desperado Club, and so we start like it's a new book where we're like, we're gonna go shopping and Dona's gonna get drunk, and then we're gonna get a quest. It's like literally there, it's like two separate books.
SPEAKER_00It's like we took a long rest and started over.
SPEAKER_04We could not have split this book up better, but it was interesting because I feel like in book one, I really loved the first half, and I I enjoyed the second half, don't get me wrong, but it felt a little almost redundant because it felt like they kind of understood what they were doing and like it was more routine. This one was just like so different in the first half and the second half that I never got bored, um, which I thought was great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, amazing.
Hecla And Katya Enter The Party
SPEAKER_01Um I can ask you guys something if that's okay. Go ahead, Dan. When we countered Hecla and Katya, what were your thoughts on them, critter?
SPEAKER_04Um, sure. So I let's see, what is it? The the stranger. So are you familiar with Stephen King? Um The Outsider. The outsider. Okay, sorry, I'm like so dark. So dark, but like the way Katya was described kind of reminded me of like the outsider, because like I don't know, I don't know. There's also like characters in the Cosmere that kind of do what she does, the like face forming or whatever. And so it's just kind of like horrifying to consider um the way that she has to like mold herself. Um, and so I I I could picture her actually pretty well because I've seen like I want to say maybe in the outsider, but in other things, you've seen people with like their features like melting or whatever, and that's kind of how I pictured it. Um but Hecla seems like I mean, obviously, I'm you know, women can do no wrong. But at the same time, like if she's trying to steal donut from Carl, man, we're gonna have words. I don't know. Like, I don't love it. Um it every time we come across another crawler, I get really nervous because at any point they could just kill kill you for experience and and your items. And donut and Carl are so powerful and they have so many good items that they're a huge target. Now, even more so because there's a bounty on their head, apparently, as revealed at the end. At the end, yeah. So I would have such trouble trusting people. The fact that they trusted Katya with the detonator, when they went into the building, I was like, uh, like no no no uh I hated that. I hated. I think I would have trust issues in the dungeon.
SPEAKER_00So not to take away from that point about Katya, because that is a that was like an on the edge of the seat kind of moment, like, well, we're gonna find out how she feels pretty quick. Um, I liked when we met Hecla, uh, because to your point, every time we meet a crawler, we don't really know how it's gonna go or what to expect. However, we've only had either good or bad experiences. And Hecla held her cards close to her chest, right? So we we left that episode of Ripper Want on not really knowing what Hecla thinks of Carl and Dona, which is interesting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Who what did you think of them, A?
SPEAKER_01Um I like that I know. So I've read up to book six, so I had to I re reread some sections because I was like, I don't remember what happens exactly in every single book. Yeah, but I I remember feeling bad for Katya because she was only level nine when they met her. She was like nervous, and like when she described her doppelganger powers as being painful, yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, like everything's just so hard in this universe, everything has to be so horrible. Like I just felt bad for her. She seemed kind of like a pitiable character.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and I think that's why Carl like took to her, right? Because she was level nine and she did need somebody. And Carl, I think that Carl at heart is a protector, um, regardless of what his life was like pre-Krawl. I think that Carl is a protector at heart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Carl. Carl. But I can't marry him because everybody else already has. He has a car on now. He does. I'm sure he's got a following.
SPEAKER_04Happy to be a part of it.
Bomb Logic And The Soul Crystal
SPEAKER_00Just happy to be here, folks. Just happy to be here. Yeah, yeah. Um, let's talk about our boy Carl, though. Uh, at any point in this book, did you feel like he may accidentally blow people up? So I felt like when we were reading through this book, he has a lot less concern playing with incendiary devices to the point where other people are like, I'm not gonna touch that. It tells me I have like a 80% chance of triggering it. Um so I'm just wondering if if you picked up on that, critter, that he's he's a lot more casual about bombs.
SPEAKER_04But he's allowed to be. His his his uh abilities, his class let him be, I think, if I'm remembering right. So I it's it is funny because like when he examines things, it's like you know, 99% chance of being fine. Like it's not gonna degrade while you handle it. There's so many things that he has that other people don't have that I think um it it didn't bother me at all. I was like, ha, yeah, of course. He's he's the anarchist or whatever. Um, but I will say that the moment he put the like exploding nuke into his inventory, that's the moment that I was like, well, again, no, no, no. Like, what are you doing? Like, obviously, that was the only choice, I guess. But like now, now what? How are you gonna get it out without boom, you know?
SPEAKER_00So, again, in my mind, I'm picturing like a plastic case that you put like baseball cards in.
SPEAKER_04Oh, see, I'm I'm picturing a princess Diana Beanie Baby because I've seen a plastic case with Princess Diana in it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, same difference, right? Like, mine's probably not quite the same dimensions, but I think we're all living in the same clear plastic cube world. Um, and I'm just like this is it. I know there's more books, but how the hell do you catch a catch a soul crystal explosion? And by God, he did it.
SPEAKER_04You better just have your inventory forever. You better just never have to get things out of your inventory.
SPEAKER_00So, what's it like to walk around with a nuke in your backpack?
SPEAKER_01Only Carl knows.
SPEAKER_04Only Carl knows. I mean, I guess like in the in the gaming sphere, there could be an item that makes you indestructible. I'm thinking like Magic the Gathering, indestructible for five seconds, indestructible for 30 seconds, right? Like there are there are ways, presumably, that he could take it out of his inventory, but we haven't seen them yet.
SPEAKER_00So it is true. We have not seen anything like that yet. I just think it's funny because there were a couple of times where I caught it as I was rereading it. People were like giving him the side eye about how casual he was being as he was playing with you know these things. And he's like, No, it's fine. See, it's fine. And they're all kind of looking at him like he's a little crazy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Speaking of like, oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01All I was gonna say, like, one of my notes was I love how he is like a pyromaniac. That's like adorable. But the other thing that I always thought was really funny was that in this series, like there are classes and races that have like magic powers, like there's necromancers and stuff like that. And I always wondered how something, I'm not gonna say mundane, but of the of the material world, like explosions, like like how those work together. Because I'm sure there's like some classes that like maybe they're completely protected from bombs or explosions, right? They can make like a force field around them or something. And I always wondered how like all of those like worlds exist in this type of scenario where like there's magic and then there's non-magic, and Carl is like a non-magic, but it's almost kind of like it's a magic because he can handle these devices and these incendiary devices, and like he knows he has like a downloadable knowledge of how to handle them without setting them off. But like Donut doesn't, but she has other skills, you know.
SPEAKER_00So I I love that for him though, right? Like, I love that he picked the compensated anarchist and that he's kind of trending this way to this because it doesn't matter if you're squaring off against Gandalf. If you punch him in the nose, you punch him in the nose. Do you know what I mean? Like he's got, you know, it's like Harry Potter. Right. Potentially he's got, you know, resistance to magic spells and all of these other things that you might see, whether it's from the tabletop land or the gaming land or whatever. But a punch in the nose is a punch in the nose. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's obviously an a gross oversimplification, but that's what I think of is that um he didn't choose something hugely wild, far-fetched, magical. He he chose something that was grounded in a skill set that he could do.
SPEAKER_04To Anne's point, though, like, you know, how I think both Carl and Donut are immune to poison at this point. But like somebody could be immune to fire. That would be wild. But like I always wondered.
SPEAKER_01I was always like, what if he comes up against an opponent or a boss or something, and that boss is completely protected against explosives?
SPEAKER_00So it depends, right? So I again just coming from the TTRPG space, can't even speak to the gaming space, the TTRPG land, they they're likely resistant to fire, but they're not resistant to the force damage, right? Like there's an explosion that has more than one mechanism of injury to it. And yes, somebody could be so beefy and so tanky that it does not matter, but likely something's gonna get through unless they have a shield, to your point, Anne. They could have either a physical shield or a magical shield. Um, but those things, as we've seen even with Carl's protective shell, has a has a cooldown time, right? Like has a duration, has a cooldown time, uh, might be uh might be just a fleeting item, which if once they use it, they can't get it back.
SPEAKER_04Jessica and I also have experience with the wheel of time where you know immunity to magic can be tricky, right? If you're a magic wielder, but then you just like shoot your magic into the bricks next to the person and the bricks fall on them. You know, they're always surrounded.
SPEAKER_01But that's what I see. I was gonna say that's what I love about this, is like you were talking about the cooldowns and all that, like the limitations give it more creativity. You know, the limitations allow you to be creative and building up this defense and this offense. And you know, I was thinking like when Brandon Sanderson said like limitations are greater than like what was it? The limitations are greater than the like invincibility. Like the weaknesses are in the important part, like this, like how you how you creatively work around your spell's limitations. That's that's where the fun comes in. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I love that with Carl because I feel like I feel like he gets inventive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he's so creative. That's one of the things I love about him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um he is smart. You were saying in your other episodes, like the the the AI is always dunking on his intelligence, but like he's really smart.
SPEAKER_04He's so smart.
SPEAKER_00And again, joke at this point, yeah, yeah, and again, it's like um in in comparison to you know uh donuts incredibly high stat, right? So it's completely out of scale and not real.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's it's not just the AI who dunks on him. Apparently, like he has a reputation of being like unhinged, which is so funny to me, because like he's the opposite, I think. Like, but yeah, no, I because they said Hecla or whatever, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_00He swings for the fences. See, I don't think he's dumb. I think he swings for the fences. I think he plays like it's the ninth inning, which it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're in the apocalypse. Like, why would you pull your punches?
Reality TV Edits And Donut’s Growth
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's fair. I like how the reality shows like deceptively edit the clips to make it look like he's nuts. And that's kind of a comment. That's kind of a comment on like how our media does that. Like, our media is about getting people emotional and like editing and and out of contexting things. And so, like their media is the same.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, in the same way that like they're they're creating this feud between donut and the dogs, and it's completely manufactured. Donut did not mean to call them out. She was drunk, but it's like, you know, it's doing it for the views, man. Doing it for the views.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, the Caesar Flickerman of it all. Yeah. Quote critter. Yeah. Um, I think that we did talk a little bit about the big dramatic ending with the big old bomb. Um, we saw more mercy plays from Carl in this. We saw um we saw that softer side, that protective side, come out a little bit. Uh for example, with the prostitute burgundy, although it was Donut who ultimately did the kindness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then Carl trying to do his best by everyone, and instead of just running away, doing what it took to save Katya and everybody, and trying to close down the stairwell, like have have them trigger the bomb to try and save as many crawlers as he could. Yeah. So if you had to pick one, which one was your favorite Carl moment out of this book? No pressure.
SPEAKER_02Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, um, I don't know. Favorite, I mean, I always love it when he blows stuff up. That's amazing. It's just fun. Um, it's fun. And I, you know, I I love the moment. I think this was highlighted. So I had happened to have a digital copy of this book, and this part was highlighted when he said, Maybe we should have tested them first. And they said, That's what they're gonna write on my tombstone.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01I love those moments.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Gosh, what was my favorite Carl moment? I mean, I think it was the moment he decided that they weren't gonna run. Like that that feels like the right moment for sure.
SPEAKER_00I think another heart string tugger between him and Donut.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And she's like, I know that she's dead or whatever. That was sad. That was this time, right? That was this time. That was this time.
SPEAKER_01Have you guys noticed like a progression in Donuts, like I would say, humanity almost? Like she kind of started off as like a childlike, like funny character, but like when she says stuff like that, like I know she's dead, it's just like yeah, and hard.
SPEAKER_04I think she's definitely like she started out very young-minded. Um, but over time, I think she's grown into some of her intelligence stat and wisdom, honestly. Um, but she, I don't know if it's Carl rubbing off on her, but she's definitely got a a soft, softer side to her that she didn't necessarily, I feel like, have always like with Katia, for example. Like it was her at first that was like, we have to help her, we have to help her, or whatever. Um, so no, I really appreciated Donut. And I got I was getting like annoyed with Donut in book one when she was just all about the like views and whatever, like that's all she cared about. And now she's she's like tan, like she's not as big about that, uh, at least on the page, which is I appreciate. Um so yeah, I I think she's definitely growing. I I I love that she decided to stay with Carl. She's like, you know, you said you were gonna leave me alone, and if you die, so no, I'm yeah, don't get me wrong. I do love donut. I just really love Carl.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I can't fault you there. Yeah. Um, do you have any fave moments that we haven't touched on? Either of you. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so the the hobgoblin lady.
SPEAKER_03Yes, you I have really good hearing. Still can hear you.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna do that. Yeah, no, that just made me laugh. And yeah, if that was pretty, that was great. I love it Oh, oh, and the the the the video game stuff popping up, the shiny case, how like that's literally straight out of video game stuff where it's you know, it glints out of the corner of your eye. It's like Zelda or like something like that, where you're like, oh, I'm supposed to notice this, you know, and it might as well be like doo doo doo doo do do do do do do do, you know, once you see it, yeah, it's flashing. Um I'm glad that Carl recognized that as important. And then it's so funny how like the beanie baby and the case were like the top two valued items in his inventory once he put them in there. So, you know, hint, these are important.
SPEAKER_00Uh, my favorite uh not necessarily a moment, but I there's a quote in here from the AI. Uh, when they pass the first quest and then immediately get dumped into the second quest, and the AI says, unf yourselves. I just lost it. I um yeah, I thought it was hilarious. I actually texted that to my husband when I read it uh the first time.
unknownNice.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, really? This is amazing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, they took that quest and turned it up to 11. The fact that it was like, we're trying to, we're doing a gum shoe, who done it, who's killing the prostitutes thing to like, oh, by the way, it's actually a second apocalypse.
SPEAKER_00Like it'll leave it to Carl to go like Super Saiyan and and just essentially demolish the building.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah, yeah. We love it.
Best Baddies Plus Folklore Monsters
SPEAKER_00You know, that's that's what he does. Uh we have one other thing that we do we've started doing recently, is we ask people who their favorite baddie is. So I will ask Critter to go first and to give you a second to think about it. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I'm so ready for this, actually.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good, because I'm not. I'm totally making it up after you.
SPEAKER_04Okay, because I will say that um, oh my god, remix or whatever. He he was annoying. The audiobook narrator made him very annoying. Like, wait, wait, let me finish my story the way he was doing it. I was like, okay, finish. Finish your fucking, you know, like finish your dang story. Um, not remix. Mine is the Borant Corporation because they took away their boxes and it made me so mad. Like, Carl and Donut keep getting gypped out of stuff, and it makes me so actually, I don't think I'm supposed to say jipped. Sorry. Carl and Donut keep getting robbed of stuff. And it's like it's driving me nuts. The fact that they were going to get a celestial loot box, and instead of them getting it, that random dude who was trolling them in their Discord server got it. That drives me nuts. I want them to get, I want Carl to get those wings so bad because I think in this read, Donut was like, you either need to figure out how to climb or figure out how to fly.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, that would have come in handy.
SPEAKER_04So, anyways, Borant can go they can go all day long. They can go somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead, Ann. Do you have your answer? I like that answer a lot because I remember feeling like that's not fair when that happened. I was like pounding the table. But um, I kind of love the dynamic between Carl and I I I know everyone's gonna uh Prince Maestro of the Skull Empire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like after that assassination attempt, they had that whole thing where they're like, We're gonna, we're gonna totally take out Carl or whatever, like that. I like I like that because it's like ongoing and dramatic, and like there's this whole family dynamic, and like we know they're gonna be there on later floors, and like they hate each other, and like the family themselves have their own drama, like the Sopranos kind of stuff going on. Yeah, and like and like I'm always interested in that because I like those ongoing dramatic tensions, even though I hate Prince Maestro like a thousand percent, like so much hate. Like, I hate him so much. And that in the first book, when he had that show with the kids and they were like glare on their perfect, like I was like, you suck.
SPEAKER_04He's an ongoing POS. And honestly, like that's part of the reason I considered picking Lucia Maher because like the ongoing now, she feels like a villain to me because there's this tension, like you know, she's threatening Carl and Donut now. So I'm obviously mad at her.
SPEAKER_01So, anyways, and her her physical description is horrifying.
SPEAKER_04Horrifying horrifying.
SPEAKER_00So she's yeah, I mean, she was a child when she went in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I'm not blaming her, I'm blaming Borint and like you know, the alias.
SPEAKER_00But if you've ever watched a horror show, horror shows with creepy, horrific children are super creepy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And one more thing I was gonna say really quick because I'm in I'm really into folklore. And in this book, we had Crasu, which I didn't know existed, and I Googled him and I was like, ooh, that's really scary. And then uh Lucia Mars a Lajabless, Lajablis, I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, which is another um Caribbean mythological figure, which is very interesting because like when you read it, like I highly encourage people to like if you're not familiar with the folklore or the mythological figures, if you Google them, they are fascinating. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah, they were both named. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Sourced from the real world.
SPEAKER_01Oh, they are sourced. A crasu is a South, um, Southeast Asian like demon spirit, like a ghost that feeds on the blood of the living. And then the Lejablis is another thing, but it's actually kind of inspired by like Catholicism and like like voodan, and like there's a lot of cultural exchange with how like that came to be. So it's like it. I I like that the author is like sourcing real folklore from Earth and like it's bringing it into this world, and it's making it like kind of reminds me of like Diablo, if you've ever played that. Yeah, like a little bit of that, a little bit of yeah, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_00I really like that.
SPEAKER_04I didn't know that. I'm glad you brought that up.
SPEAKER_00Those are great call-outs because uh they were both new to me, and I uh I I love mythology, so I love hearing about new kinds of monsters. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like, you guys are are you guys planning on finishing the series? Like reading the rest of other people.
SPEAKER_04Unless unless I like hate one of the books, which feels like unlikely.
SPEAKER_01Well, I would say like he keeps like keeps the auntie up, like there's more interesting like mythological things coming in and like things I didn't know, and I had and I considered myself somewhat like knowledgeable about world mythology, but like I was like, wow, this book is like teaching me all these things I didn't know.
SPEAKER_04Like what's your best baddie, Jess?
SPEAKER_00Uh she took my answer. Oh Maestro.
SPEAKER_03Maestro! I know. Next time, you go first. Yeah, uh did we not say he got bombed in the counter bombing? His mom was on the transport.
SPEAKER_00Uh so it wasn't Maestro, it was the brother. Why am I having such a hard time?
SPEAKER_04The brother. Okay. It was the brother.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I forgot. So bad. So bad. Okay, for some reason it's on the fire brother.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It is.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it was his brother and um and his mother were on the transport that got bombed in retaliation.
SPEAKER_04Okay. All right. So Maestro's still alive and kicking.
SPEAKER_00So for this book, I was gonna say Maestro's brother is my favorite baddie.
SPEAKER_03Okay, okay. What is his name is?
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's terrible. We we could just call him, we can just call him Dane. We we we'll do that.
SPEAKER_04We did that with uh um, you've read Fourth Wing, so we did that with uh what's his name now? We called him Dave. We called him Dave, his name's Dane. Right now, let's call him Dave.
SPEAKER_00Who's one step above Chad? Like, yeah, literally.
SPEAKER_04Uh we hated Dave for quite a while. He was annoying, but he was for a while, really annoying. Really annoying. But you know, those redemption arcs, what are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04For sure.
SPEAKER_00So I think we went through our favorite baddies and last call for any other standout moments that didn't get a shout out from either of you.
SPEAKER_01Um, one other thing on the folklore point, I always think that this book has a really uh the series has a really interesting relationship with like religion, like the made-up religion with the elves, like a pito and then like oak fell and all that being like the antichrist and they worship her. And I'm always like, oh, that's weird. And then there was like a moment where Batista said it was like kind of a heavy moment after they met him, and he said, How will God how will we make it to heaven if God doesn't recognize us when he had to change his form? And I remember thinking like curious. I was like, wow, because like there's people in there who like believe in like various religions, and like this whole experience must rock their world. Yeah, like being in this dungeon and like having their memories in like taken from them and like being forced to like change their bodies and like fight and kill things, you know. Which like imagine if you were like a Sikh or something, or a nonviolent religion, like a nonviolent practitioner, and like you had to go in and like do this. Like, can you imagine? Like, I don't know, this like it has like these heavy moments in it, which you know, it's it's kind of like you get a little bit of whiplash, you're reading the funny moment with Donut and Carl, and then it's like, oh, this serious like afterlife conversation, and then yeah, leading up to that.
MVP Votes And Dragon Verdict
SPEAKER_00I had actually forgotten that Batista had three family members that died, and that's how he got pulled into their story. Like, I forgot that until I reread it this week, and I was like, Me too. Oh, oh, that's right. And then that leads into this very serious conversation of uh what if my god doesn't recognize me? And I'm like, Good lord, yeah, yeah, you're coming right at me, bro. I know, yeah, yeah, they just don't let up. No, so it's you know, but that's part of the draw, right? Like it's an incredible read, it hits all the beats, it goes from one to the other. Um, yeah, I love it. I've I love it, yeah, me too. Uh so yeah. With that, we go into our closing segment, which is where we go through and with this new format for each read-through, we pick a runner-up and an MVP for this half of the book. So, in case Critter didn't warn you, I would like Critter to go first.
SPEAKER_04I like forgotten. Um bitch.
SPEAKER_01Uh I actually wrote mine down if you go first then. Um I wrote my Love a Prepared Guest is Mordecai because I mean, Mordecai. Is that your runner-up? That's my runner-up because I was reading through the other guides, like Katya's guide and like the other groups and Batista's guides about how terrible they are and how they don't even care and like they have no input, and there's and they're telling them to change into races and classes that are like goofy or like not that helpful. And then that guy's like on his game. He's actually helping them, he's giving them good information, he was helping them with the all the quests, and like he's like curmudgeonly in a like cute British kind of way, and like I just have this vision of him, and I'm just like, he's always like he's always there, you know? He's always so helpful, and he's better than the other ones. So that's a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. And then um, do I pick up? Wait, no, no, don't don't pick up. Wait, that's like okay.
SPEAKER_00Critter, can you do a runner-up or you need to?
SPEAKER_04Okay, I'm remembering now. Um, I'm gonna pick Donut because of the scene where Carl gets completely uh KO'd and she just went for it. She just like magic missiled people to death and like protected them and stuff. Like she, yeah, she held her own with obviously with uh oh my gosh, Mongo. Um, as they were, as those like whatever they were, those zombie things were filtering through, and Carl gets yeeted up into the air by the anyways, all that stuff. Like Carl was out of commission and Donut took took care of things. Someone picked Donut.
SPEAKER_00Okay. For this half of this book, I am gonna come out early for Katya as my runner-up. So she is completely and over her head um and is thrown in uh with Carl and Donut, and doesn't have the skills or the strength or anything necessarily that they do, uh, but is game, right? And came in clutch with the swordsman bomb. Uh just because it didn't play out the way that we thought it would, didn't mean that she didn't stick to it and do a hard thing. So I like Katya as my runner-up for for the test. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_00So, Ann, if you would like to give us your MVP.
SPEAKER_01Well, do you want to guess who it is? No.
SPEAKER_04You can tell us. It's Carl.
SPEAKER_01It's Carl. He did the Doomsday scenario. He he captured the soul crystal. I mean, I can't really pick anybody else. That's something like I assume like no one else or almost no one else has ever done before. So now he's got it in his inventory, and I am so excited to see what happens. Can't wait to see what happens with that one.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh critter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I don't know if I've ever not picked Carl. Like now that I'm thinking about it for every single half book, maybe, maybe I have. But no, it's Carl 100.
SPEAKER_03No, you picked Carl last time.
SPEAKER_04Every time. Um, no, it's I mean, it's Carl, and for the same reasons that Ann said, and I actually forgot about this until just now. Um, but the fact one of my favorite parts were uh Carl, whenever they're like running to the door or whatever, and it's like a group of crawlers and they're all trying to get there. Um and some guy gets knocked out, and Carl gives him a potion, the guy wakes up and he's like, get your dick out of my face. Yes, he's naked.
unknownI forgot about that.
SPEAKER_04But, anyways, yeah, so not only is Carl saving the world with a nuke in his inventory, he's also doing it pantsless, porky pig style. I love it. So, anyways, yeah, and the fact that like the whole universe has now seen him bottomless is just like the fact that he like described being not a shy person, but also kind of mortified by that, like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Um so oh, and we didn't talk about the fact that Donuts Tiara got exploded. So that I'm curious to see the implications of that. Um I don't I don't know if if yeah, I don't know how that this is gonna play out. Like, is it gone forever because of the magical spell or is it gonna show up again? Um, but anyways, yeah, Carl's an MVP.
SPEAKER_00Um, in a drastic change of events, Carl is also my MVP. I think it's the first time. Yeah, I think it's his first time for me. Uh, but he yeah, he just keeps on keeping on, doesn't he? Just keeps being awesome. Uh so I don't even think I'd have to actually do math. I think it's Carl. Oh, wait. Oh, no way is it Mongo.
SPEAKER_04It's not Mongo's second.
SPEAKER_00Carl by one. Okay, so and in full disclosure, we had four voting members last visit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and Mongo pulled ahead.
SPEAKER_04Really? Yeah, in the first half of the vote.
SPEAKER_00Because he defended Donut while she was magically asleep. And we were all like love for Mongo. Um but yeah, no, I'm looking and I counted it out. So, but Carl had a couple of votes too. So taken together, we looked at the counts. Mongo was the first half, Carl was strictly the second half, but by one, it's Carl for the book.
SPEAKER_04For the book, Carl!
SPEAKER_00Carl.
SPEAKER_04And at the end of the book, we also usually say whether or not there was a dragon because of the name of the podcast. But are there dragons? And there kind of was. One of the tattoos was a sea dragon on that lady on Silver. We're counting it.
SPEAKER_01I was like So were we?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was pretty excited because I know a sea dragon, I believe, is technically a fish, but in my mind, there are also dragons that live in the sea, and that's what I choose to picture. Um, therefore, there are dragons in Dungeon Cross. A wind is a Carl book, too.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say on the mythological, well, kind of note, the Leviathan, the biblical creature of the sea, is said to be a sea dragon, you know, the one that appears at the end of days. So that could also be a sea dragon. And I that's how I envisioned it. It was like a Leviathan.
SPEAKER_00So you're saying when we get to the rapture, I'll be like, hey mom, look, there's a dragon.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you could. I mean, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04All right, all right. Well, I guess that wraps us up. Congratulations, Carl. Ann, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04I loved your insights. The the mythology and all that stuff is fascinating. I hadn't even thought about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I actually didn't either. I was excited to learn more.
SPEAKER_04Now I want to like Google it, but I like I I I'm so nervous about Googling because I don't want to get any spoilers. But I think if I Google real world things, then that should be safe.
SPEAKER_01Like just Google craft to yeah, and then like don't don't tag Dungeon Crawler Car on it. And like I'm afraid of getting spoilers too, so I haven't been looking stuff up recently in the books. So I need to read the next one, and then I think I'm caught up.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, and there's gonna be a new one in the fall, I think.
SPEAKER_01He writes so fast.
SPEAKER_04No, oh, never mind.
SPEAKER_03Sooner.
Next Book Plans And Follow Us
SPEAKER_04Sooner! Sooner. Okay, yeah, soon. So anyways, okay. Uh let's and if you were curious, we are indeed moving on to the next Dungeon Crawler Carl book. Book three is the Dungeon Anarchists Cookbook. We'll be reading chapters one through 17 for an episode drop on April 14th. So you'll have a couple of weeks. We're keeping our normal pace, um, and we hope you'll read along with us. Uh so that is all. Thank you so much for tuning in to our fourth episode of season seven of Butt Are There Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sadai, and me, CraterXD, and special guest, Anne. Don't forget to follow us at Butt Are There Dragons on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and Butt Dragons Podjust1T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as CraterXD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. New achievement! Wannabe Scholar. You have read a whole two books. Wow. Reward! You get to read another book. Well, half of it at least, for our April 14th episode.
SPEAKER_01Bye. Bye. Bye bye.
