But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, the Empyrean Series, Project Hail Mary, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Season 7 Episode 13 DCC Book 7 This Inevitable Ruin: Chapters 1-43
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Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read, and talk about it. For our seventh season, we're reading Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman! This episode covers Book 7, This Inevitable Ruin, Chapters 1-43, with Jessica as the vet and Kritter as the first timer.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them hasn't read and talk about it. I'm your host, Critter.
SPEAKER_03And I'm your host, Jess.
SPEAKER_00And we're here to talk today about chapters one through 43 of Dungeon
Welcome And Reading Plan
SPEAKER_00Crawler Carl Book 7, This Inevitable Ruin. How hyped are you, Jess, to be on the penultimate book that's currently out?
SPEAKER_03I'm super hyped. Uh all through my reread of this first half. Uh I was just like, gosh, this is such a banger of a book. I'm so excited to get back to it. And it means we're one step closer to book eight because I'm getting anxious. I'm getting ready.
SPEAKER_00And why are we getting anxious? Specifically, you?
SPEAKER_03Specifically me. So I, the good friend that I am and podcast co-host, have delayed my reading of book eight so that we can buddy read it. So half a book away from getting to read that. But in the meantime, you know, I've got no contact and no spoilers with DCC up to book eight. And I'm anxious. I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00We're both ready, but you have waited in in some ways longer than me. A little bit longer. Because you could have read it earlier and I couldn't have without all the context. Mr.
SPEAKER_03Jessica is like to, you know, likes to lord it over that he got to read it first, but yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, we needed him to moderate the Discord, so you know he did us a service. Yes. Yes. So thank you, Mr. Jessica. But be nice, be nice. We're almost there.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, we have just a little itty bitty, but are there updates to get us kicked off? And I think that your news is super fun. So let's let you go first. Critter had some great new content that she shared
Brandon Sanderson Interview Plus DCC TV News
SPEAKER_03with her fans.
SPEAKER_00Well, I had the crazy opportunity to interview Brandon Sanderson, the author of the last three books of the Wheel of Time series and The Cosmere and the Sideoverse. If you're not familiar, what are you doing? Because his books are all over the bookstores. Um, I couldn't believe I got the opportunity. I did the interview. I've been editing the interview. I've been slow, but it is finally available now on my YouTube, and I'll be posting snippets of it over time on my TikTok and Instagram. But the full thing is now up on my YouTube at CritterXD. So if you're interested in that at all, we talked about the Wheel of Time, we talked about the upcoming, the next Mistborn trilogy, we talked about his TV and movie adaptations that are coming up, and we talked about the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So, you know, I mean, there's something there for everyone, I think.
SPEAKER_03It was a very well-rounded, because obviously I watched it the second you dropped it. It was a very well-rounded conversation.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. And the story behind that is wild because I so I am um I'm friends with the Cosmere the Sanderson track coordinator at JordanCon, and he's such an amazing guy. Shout out to Billy. Um, and I asked him months before JordanCon if there was any, any way I could possibly talk to Brandon just for like a 60-second TikTok, right? I was like, any sort of an interview, I would love one because I've been talking about him for five years. And Billy was like, I'll reach out. I'm kind of the I'm kind of the guy that coordinates with the his team anyways. And it was just kind of like, oh, we're not sure, we're not sure, we're not sure. Turns out at the con, I get an email, I think it was on Friday, can you do Saturday at 2 p.m.? Well, I had a panel that ended at 2 p.m. and I had a panel that started at 2.30. But you better believe I was like, I sure can. Like, I'm gonna make that like I literally, absolutely. So um, yeah, in that 30-minute window, I got that interview in, which the whole video is like 19 minutes. Some of it is the intro and outro, but like, you know, it was like show up, set up, do the interview, bleed. And uh, and I think it was it was an amazing, it was an amazing time. He was a great sport, and I really appreciate him for doing that. So check it out. Okay, Jessica, you said mine is really exciting, but yours is also really exciting, especially for Dungeon Crawler Carl fans. So, what's the news?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, we're just coming off of uh San Diego Comic-Con, and a really, really awesome announcement got made at San Diego Comic-Con that we have Jeff Hayes, the narrator, is giving voice to our beloved Donut in the TV adaptation. And pretty safe to say that we're donut stands on this channel, and um, we're pretty excited to see Jeff Hayes, you know, continue representing Donut.
SPEAKER_00Amaze, amaze, amaze. Amaze, amaze, amaze. Uh, I'm so excited. Like, I can't. The only better news, I put this on my threads, the only better news that we could get is that he's playing both donut and the AI, but we'll see. I don't want to be greedy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, I can't wait to see where they take that. It could be I I mean, I I respect it. They're giving it to us in dribs and drabs. It's gonna take a long time for us to get to the point where the show is real, so probably good to dole it out, you know, to kind of spread the info.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I also I feel like Seth McFarland is gonna scoop up some of the voices, and he could do a good AI, so I'm not trying to be like, it's only Jeff. I'm not one of those that's like, it has to be this, or I'm not watching. That's not the person I am. But I am one who's really excited.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. We're all about the hype train. Uh, Seth McFarlane, that's a really good point, actually. I've seen him do interviews where much like Jeff Hayes does in the narration, Seth McFarlane just switches from character to character to character, like in front of you at Jimmy Kimmel's desk or what have you. And it's pretty epic. So yeah. Time has a chance. Yeah. So that's that's our quick but are there updates. So without any further ado, we will hop into the first half of this inevitable ruin. So critter for this half of the book, we started
Prologue Payoffs And New POV Chapters
SPEAKER_03right in on some added context to the poly interaction and how that really went down. And I feel like at the end of last episode, you were left wanting, much as I was the first time I read it. Did this kind of slake your thirst a little bit and satisfy you more than what you got out of last book?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Yes. I mean, I can't remember exactly what I said, but it was something along the lines of it couldn't have been a nothing burger. They wouldn't, he wouldn't have taken us on that long journey for it to be nothing. And rather than it being a nothing burger, it was an everything burger. It was the thing, the huge thing. So that was really fun.
SPEAKER_03Yep. I love the fact that he gave that to us right out the gate. Um, it it started this book off with a bang. Uh, I'll say it multiple times through tonight's episode for sure, that I forgot just how much I love this book. We are only halfway through, and I was like, Yeah, this was a really good read. I devoured this. I devoured this book, and I am excited to get back into it.
SPEAKER_00I feel like every interval of three, every time you get the outside world in the dungeon, it's like, okay, stakes way higher. Yep. Like it's it, those are the banger books. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that we got, we got prologue point two, kind of, where we got uh the first of several installments throughout the first half of this book of some former crawler perspectives. Um, this was a relatively new format. We have not heard any chapters in anybody else's voice other than the epigraphs when when he's reading snippets of the book. How did you feel about this new convention and hearing these new perspectives?
SPEAKER_00So I first have to say I was kind of embarrassed because I've been proselytizing, as you do as a Dungeon Caller Carl fan, to like people in my work. And they were like, Oh yeah, like, is it in first person? And I literally had to be like, Well, I think it's from Carl's perspective. So yeah, like I literally had to like we are such vibes girlies.
SPEAKER_03Sorry. For any of you who don't know, Critter is just getting over some crud, but she's being a rock star and she is still here to put in the time.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. We're such vibes girlies. I don't know if you could have answered that. I assume you could have, and I did ultimately answer it correctly, but it was still like a huh. I think it's first person. But anyway, so the fact that they did shift perspectives here was interesting. Um, but uh yeah, I love I love a good, you know, lore drip. I love a lore drip. And so this was it's it's and the fact one of the payoffs that we got from the lore drips was let's just say explosive. So um I was I was a big fan.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I think I just want to tangent for one second because we do it every once in a while. What you're saying about proselytizing to your coworkers, also same, but um, it's kind of making the rounds around social media. Uh, because as we've mentioned several times before, Dungeon Crawler Carl is really rising
The Dungeon Crawler Carl Elevator Pitch
SPEAKER_03through the ranks in terms of popularity. It's definitely making the rounds on book talk and across social media everywhere. It's on fire, as it should be. It's a heck of a series. Um, but the newest thing that I've seen um across all of my social media is we all as crawlers need to get our elevator pitch down because otherwise you sound like you're on drugs if you try to describe this series to other people. So collectively, as donut holes, we all need to get together and start nailing down our elevator pitch so that we don't wind up in those situations.
SPEAKER_00So let's on the fly take one minute to in tandem do this together, all right? And we'll clip this and put it on our social media, okay? Okay. So we're hitting the 10-minute mark right now in the recording. It might be different on YouTube or whatever, but let's try to do this in a cohesive way. Ready, you start.
SPEAKER_03Dungeon Crawler Carl is a book series about Carl and his ex-girlfriend's cat Dona, who get trapped outside during the apocalypse, which then turns into them getting sucked into um a dungeon crawl that is the apocalyptic potential end to our world and all that that entails.
SPEAKER_00And they have to progress through multiple floors that have different themes. The first several floors are very DD coded. So there's monsters, there's magic. Uh, but if you don't like fantasy, there's also anarchy and social commentary. So what starts as something that feels very surface level, very what's the word? What's the word? Uh-da-da-da. Superficial. Superficial. Thank you. Sorry, I'm sick, so don't blame me. Very superficial, gets very deep and very heartwarming, but stays super hilarious and irreverent at the same time.
SPEAKER_03If you like pop culture, if you like to be surprised, if you like a good payoff, this is a good series to try. And it only gets better the further in you get.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, it never gets old. And scene. Okay, that was pretty good. We hit it like right over a minute. Um, so if you have your Dungeon Crawler Carl elevator pitch and you want to share with us in the comments or a Discord, hit us with it because I don't know how well we did. Or just give us a score, you know, one to ten. Thumbs up, thumbs down. Just let us know how we did.
SPEAKER_03If you're listening to this, you know that we can we can talk at length about the topic. So for us to hone it down to a minute is kind of a big deal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So yes, uh, squirrel. I'm gonna squirrel us back to our um bullets. So, yes, we got basically a double um prologue, which was cool. And then we start right in with some action. We have a little bit of business that's being conducted that's uh a continuation
Rend Bonding And Donut’s Jealous Spiral
SPEAKER_03of where we left off at the other floor. The thing that jumps off the page for me here is rend. So as we saw at the end of last book, it was heartbreaking. Uh Serengal Gore um passed away uh voluntarily, and um their um tummyacre.
SPEAKER_00Yes, tummy acre milliacre slash tummy acre, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yes, whichever one it is, um Carl has inherited, however you choose to put that. Um, and he has to find a way to break that to donut. And that goes pretty much exactly how I expected. I don't know, critter, how did that go for you? Were you expecting any kind of graciousness from her majesty Queen Chong?
SPEAKER_00No, no, no. Both times I read it, I laughed out loud when she initially goes, What? Because that's exactly what I expected. And the fact that she's trying to sell him to people for five dollars even after he's bonded to Carl, absolute perfection. And you could tell it was jealousy, right? I mean, I know it was it wasn't veiled at all. She's like, you're cheating on me. You're cheating on me. It's so obvious. When she's like, she's moved on from pet status, but still she covets that place in Carl's heart, and she doesn't want anybody else to have it, basically. Like, I can have a pet, but you can't because because you just can't.
SPEAKER_03I cannot be replaced.
SPEAKER_00Basically, yeah. Even though I've moved on from that position, you can't you can't backfill it. Okay, that's just them's the rules, and then Carl broke the rules.
SPEAKER_03And then, you know, to add insults to injury, donut becomes uh aware in real time of the donut holes and donut hole merch. And again, just another little ridiculous interlude, but it was so much fun uh to hear her go off uh about the merch and it's illicit. I think it was illicit butthole porn. I can't even remember. It was hilarious um for the horror of donut.
SPEAKER_00Well, and the way it was described too was like when Carl saw it, he was like, Oh, you had to kind of look at it for a while to notice like the X in the donut or whatever was actually supposed to be, you know, her backside. So it wasn't, it was clearly like a subtle wink nod situation. And so I want to see like somebody like if somebody hasn't created the shirt because it sounds hilarious.
SPEAKER_03Um let's not forget that Louie was wearing it like under levels, you know what I mean? Under layers, trying to keep it on the DL. Uh, I did think it was kind of funny that there was a little bit of back and forth about different things that other people have gotten on shows. You know, we've not gone to shows with any of the other crawlers, so we have no idea what their showgoing experiences are, but apparently one of the shows that they've guested on likes to give them merch.
SPEAKER_00I mean, Ellie underwear. The fact that they haven't told Ellie, like, I think Ellie would dig that. I think Ellie would like show on board.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think she just totally roll with it. And then the answer was never given on what Katia was given to wear.
SPEAKER_00So question mark. Oh my gosh, it's probably carl related. I just thought of that. Oh, it's probably carl related. Oh no. Yeah, that's actually hilarious.
SPEAKER_03So um, I'm gonna take it back though for a little bit to a more serious note. There are two things that stuck out to me as I was reading this. Again, when I read this the first time, I absolutely devoured it. I went really fast. So when we read through, and I have to stick to one half, um, it does make me read a little bit closer.
Military Ranks And The NPC Ethics Problem
SPEAKER_03Um, two things stuck out for me that I don't know that I necessarily picked up on the first time through. One is it's a little crazy the shift that happened for me as the reader, trying to think of all of our crawlers as military personnel. And see, so I feel like there have been some unspoken hierarchies absolutely happening. Um, because obviously in those situations, somebody has to take control. Um, and we've spoken to some of the unspoken power dynamics that happened, and some spoken, right? Um, but now they have actual military titles, and that was a bit of a shift for me to like kind of get situated and accept that and to see how that all shook out. Um but it was a good one, it was just a different way to think about them, and then almost immediately on the heels of that, as we go into our first the first meeting that they're supposed to have with Juice Fox, I realized something that did not occur to me last time. I have no idea what this experience was supposed to be like for them if they hadn't been warlords. Do you know what I mean? Like, so if they hadn't managed to secure themselves a spot as faction warlords, what would that look like? You know, we got a little bit of drops and drips from the other crawlers, the old older retired crawlers. They probably would have been like conscripted by one of the other factions. And what? Like the the point is to just survive? Does it matter if your faction wins or doesn't win? I don't know why it occurred to me this time around, but it just kind of stuck out to me like this is a truly unique experience because they're the first team that's ever managed to secure uh a faction spot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just imagine they're a lot like the crawlers in the sense that they just get they're just cannon fodder. They either have to hide or get conscripted. And I have a feeling that it also depends on whether they're non-combatant. Like, I don't know if a non-combatant MPC could do, you know, could get conscripted or whatever, or if they would just be, you know, they could just get steamrolled if they it came into Lor Lor Loraskus. Lorakos. Lorakos thing is like, why am I saying Lorascus? Because I think I saw TikTok earlier about Damascus. So, anyways, um, or no, I just read Damascus here on my notes. That's what that's what happened. Um, but yeah, I've honestly just today I was pondering the nature of NPCs once again because I couldn't remember like where did they come from? Like, were they physical beings or were they like, you know, orked up out of the mud? A la the Urukai. You know what I mean? Like, where did they actually come from? That's my biggest the like if it got answered in the earlier books, I have forgotten. And I know in the meeting in this book, Juice Box said, like, you put memories inside of us, but like, where did us originate? That's my question. And if we already know the answer, feel free to let me know in the comments. But if we don't know the answer, don't. Or do you know the answer? Well, I guess you do, maybe.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I excuse me. Um, my understanding, what I remember from my read to this point, and this is not a spoiler because it's based on everything that we've done up to this point, is that some of them are real life born beings. They might be left over from a previous crawl or something like that, and some are, you know, raised out of the mud uh using like creature generators by the AI.
SPEAKER_00Okay, right. Okay, that's what I thought. So there's a mix, and then of course, we always do find a random crawler here and there, random crawler, or yeah, as you said, a random dungeon-born via crawler.
SPEAKER_03Or, we know there, yeah, there's a lot of there's we're very unclear about Damascus and um his brother, that his name is Escaping Me.
SPEAKER_00Anaconda Anaconda?
SPEAKER_03Yes, they're referred to as their kids, but were they actually dungeon-born?
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, so it's it's really intense, it's it's complicated and yeah, and so unethical in so many ways.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, lots of lots of ick associated with that. So, speaking of ick, um, as we go into that, uh Louie and Juice box are reunited. And so I'm looking to get your take. Louis and juice box are going to get married for the good of the realm. Is that ick or no ick?
SPEAKER_00Juice box is not long for this world. The fact that there's a two-stage wedding and it hasn't been officially officially completed until the second stage. Juice juice boxes. I mean, I guess one of them is gonna die, but like I would be so mad if we lost both Louie and Farraz. Um, you know what? He might do that to us. He might do that to us, but you could tell that Louie doesn't want it. Like, at least that's the subtext. And so, but he's doing it for the good of the order. And so I think Matt Dinneman, because he's a softie, will remove the issue. He will, he will eliminate the problem.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Love me some juice box. And I hope she goes out with a absolute bang, but it's not gonna happen. I don't think, I don't think.
SPEAKER_03Official prediction. So you you you don't even think it's gonna happen, so you don't have to care if it's ick or no ick. You're just like no.
SPEAKER_00I it's sad because like if it happens, Louie, I don't think wants it, and that's sad. And like, I I like juice box, I don't want her to enter into a loveless marriage either. But it is kind of like yeah, also, because yeah she's just like all over him, and he's just not into it.
SPEAKER_03Marriage alliances, I mean, yeah, yeah. Who defunk it?
SPEAKER_00Who would?
SPEAKER_03Um, and we already talked about the crawler flashbacks. Uh so then we get into our first real combat, and then all of a sudden, Florence throwing up a message going, Hey, you better get your butts back to the back to the honey home hideout. So
Reinforcements Arrive And Katia Gets Closure
SPEAKER_03I I just want to know, no pressure either way, did um did a bunch of Former cookbook authors and crawlers and 50,000 people showing up. Did that make you blubber like a baby, or no? Because either way is fine. Um, either answer is cool.
SPEAKER_00I totally cool. I I won't, I did get a little misty. You know, the fact that they were all very brother, brother, brother, and Carl's feeling all like excited and they all do the chant and all that stuff. Like, yeah, no, it was it was very nice. I did not blubber, but I did feel some deep feelings.
SPEAKER_03I I absolutely get caught up in the whole uh restoring faith in humanity. There, there's hope again. Like I was completely swept away in that moment with Carl. Um, and I'm not mad about it, other than you know, it's only slightly embarrassing.
SPEAKER_00Not embarrassing at all. That's why I read books, that's why I watch movies. I want to feel things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I definitely went for the complete ride on that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So uh, and of course, the fact that it completely changes the game for this floor, right? Like not 50,000 apparently isn't a lot, but it's a heck of a lot more than they had before they showed up.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. Exciting times. Plus, they came in with insane amounts of knowledge, which is you know, we found already incredibly valuable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that was that was fantastic. Um, and we finally get some resolution with Katia's drug use. So I'd love to hear how you felt how how you felt about the Katia healing Katia and um Carl healing story before it rolls into like full action mode.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that it well, I mean, the way it was written was interesting because it was like very, very brief. Like we're holding hands, he's in a hospital. Boom, action. And then we get it like reversed, where we're like, actually, this is what happened, because we can watch your dreams. Um, so I'm really glad that we finally got the backstory of Katya and her adoption and like her addiction, what was going on, the fact that her husband or boyfriend or whatever he was was hashtag the worst. Or have you seen uh what is it? Parks and Rec, the worst. No, anybody? Okay, so let me know if you get that reference. But uh, we hate him. But I am very glad that Katya is supposedly over what she was dealing with. Um, and I did feel for Carl though, because he's like, she's mad at me, like for a second before she explained it. I was like, oh, why is she mad at Carl? But it was okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I I remember distinctly, I went back and I re-listened to this part technically three times because I went back and re-listened to it as it was happening. Because I was like, we were driving, we were we were driving somewhere, and I was left going, wait, did I miss? I feel like I missed stuff. And so I rewound it. And then, like you said, you get a little bit more after once the action kicks up. Like, oh, okay, I didn't actually miss it, it's still coming.
SPEAKER_01It's still coming.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I remember doing the same exact thing last time, honestly. Like having to go through and be like, Did I fall asleep? Because I'm forever falling asleep with the book rolling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so I I re-listened to it a couple of times. Um, I really liked it. I think that it it spawned some interesting conversation in my house. Oh, about um, yeah, Mr. Jessica asked me if I thought there was anything romantic either existing or possible between Carl and Katia. And I told him, my opinion, that was a very intimate scene. And I'm not saying there isn't a possibility of it, but I believe that Katia knew that like Carl couldn't pour from an empty cup and kind of cut and run emotionally before she got too invested. That's my take on it. I also don't need romance in my book, so I I'm not mad about it, but I hadn't really thought about it until Hubbie asked me. And so now I'm asking you, what would you what are your thoughts on whether or not Carl and Katia have any kind of romantic between them?
SPEAKER_00I have no romance vibes from them. I do think they are incredibly close, and as Carl even put it, sibling close, and that that was a very platonic intimacy. Like they were helping each other through it. I'm thinking, I'm trying to think of like close siblings in literature that I could liken them to. But I'm drawing a blank right now.
SPEAKER_03You could do Vax and Vex from critical.
SPEAKER_00Vex and Vax, thank you. They have incredibly emotional scenes together. Never in your life would you be like, oh, they're into each other. You know what I mean? I mean, maybe some people would, but those people are messed up.
SPEAKER_03Well, and and so that's what I said. Like, you can have something be incredibly intimate. Like I took that healing scene to be very intimate, they were very close, but that doesn't make it romantic in nature for me necessarily.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, look at everything that Frodo and Sam went through, right? Granted, me, I was like, okay, that's a little, that's a little romantic, but like many other people would never say that.
SPEAKER_03So yeah. So that was that was just a fun conversation. And then, of course, we we roll into in true Dinneman style, we roll into just an absolute shit show, right? Like we go right into um did Mr. Jessica think that they were romantic, by
Shady Power Plays And Adjutant Court
SPEAKER_03the way. He does, he thinks that there's something under there.
SPEAKER_00Okay, time will tell.
SPEAKER_03So, yeah, we roll into some really serious action where people are trying to pull some shady stuff. They had insider knowledge and they pull Carl out of his body at just the right moment. And we got another She-Maria sighting in all of her terrifying glory. Um and it had ramifications on all levels. Uh and we got to see some of the adjutants working real time and how they function. How'd you like that? Rules Lord.
SPEAKER_00I loved it. I was a fan. I'm I'm so far, I'm really into uh what's her face?
SPEAKER_03Um Baroness Victory.
SPEAKER_00Baroness Victory. Yeah, I love her reasoning. Everything she says, I'm like, that sounds right. I think she's probably right. Even though it's sometimes sometimes I'm like, uh, I wish it was working.
SPEAKER_03Getting her all worked up.
SPEAKER_00I know. Sometimes I wish it her rulings would go a different way, but I think when she does make them, it makes complete logical sense and that she's a just adjutant in my mind. And yeah, yeah, I do like the fact that there's like, you know, little quorums that they they have little pow, not powwow, sorry. I'm gonna cut that.
SPEAKER_03Um they have to do the they had a minor consensus, right? Or a minor quorum.
SPEAKER_00Minor quorum, right? They have little gatherings where they have to do rulings. And so, like, you know, in the courts, this this thing exists where it's like, I'm gonna uh oh my gosh, you know what? I can't think right now because I'm sick. But I'm a big fan of the proceedings. I think it all makes sense, and it kind of also brings me to, I'm sure you're gonna ask me about the AI, but um the whole we all have our limitations. He said it over and over and over and over again. And he's like, he has to he has to follow the rules, except when he doesn't want to, but are there rules and are there like rules? Yeah, yeah. And so I'm just so curious about how that's all gonna play out, like whether there are rules that even the AI can't actually break.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. I don't know if we any of us know that. Uh, the only other thing I would say about Baroness Victory, uh, yes, I think she delivers in every scene that she comes in. Um, and I'm not a rules lawyer at heart like you, so that really kind of says something. Uh, I also think that she's incredibly even-handed and um it lands every time she's on the page, it lands. Um, and I'm it brought back to mind that quasar was all about her, and he was a thousand percent correct.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No quasar yet, though, right? No quasar yet. No quasar yet.
SPEAKER_03So we see a lot of shady stuff going on, and then we see our um well, let's not skip over Donadia's demise. I almost did.
SPEAKER_00As because it happened so quick, and it was just like, bye, you know, bye Felicia. I'm surprised Dona didn't say that.
SPEAKER_03I actually, yeah, that would have been, but let's talk about um our girl was dripping with vengeance for that particular situation.
SPEAKER_00Well, so was Carl in a scary way.
SPEAKER_03And the implications that they just essentially toppled a society, a whole society.
SPEAKER_00Bye. And that was like the easiest thing that they'll probably do on the ninth floor. Probably, yeah, yeah. I did like Donut's final line. Like Mongo would like to express his disappointment in how you ruled on the pet show. Like, amen. Yes.
SPEAKER_03So, if nothing else, what we should take away is that she definitely is a grudge holder from way back. Noted.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, oh yes. As she, I mean, Denadia, yeah, like they both had a right to be mad, but I was surprised with how mad Carl was. You know, like he she's worse than the Skull Empire, she's worse than just because she like pretended to be nice. I don't, I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I think that's what it is. I also wonder if some of that is infectious from Donut. Like Donut took Donadia's treatment as betrayal, and I think that out of solidarity for for donut, um Carl wasn't surprised by it, but it was still a betrayal, and you you know hurt my friend, and so yeah, I guess that can't stand.
SPEAKER_00I was also thinking it almost feels semi-artificial, as if like having the ring amplifies his rage and vengeance. Because it's we've seen that it's incredibly dangerous, right? It like it makes him thirst for blood, essentially. Um that's kind of the take I had. Like this feels like this feels more than Carl. Like, no matter what, this feels more than how Carl would be. So what's going on? And in my mind, it's the ring. It's the ring.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's actually a far more reasonable explanation. It's it's definitely giving cursed object. Yeah, it's definitely giving cursed object vibes, right? Uh, so I want to pivot just one second to game mechanics because we are in a different floor, we're seeing different things. Again, I feel like as somebody who games more, the game
Territory Control Tactics And Trench Exploits
SPEAKER_03mechanics, the capturing of the castles, you can't possess if your territories aren't adjacent. Are these mechanics that you're familiar with that that resonate with you from games that you've played?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it feels rather than necessarily so I guess I could liken it to a video game like Civ, like Civilization, but more so, like some of my favorite board games are territory control games, like Scythe, or I'm blanking. But like if you've played Scythe, it's a great game. It's asymmetrical. Everybody starts from like their base on the map, and they all have different abilities, and then you have to kind of just score points essentially and like take over land. Um and so yeah, that's kind of what it feels like. And this is an interesting, it's like shaped like Hunger Games 2, right? Like the clock. In my brain, at least, it's shaped like Hunger Games 2, the clock. Um, but exactly. Right. And so yeah, it's like an interesting, like I would love to play, like if they make a Dungeon Crawler Carl uh Faction Wars board game, I would play.
SPEAKER_03I mean, they are doing a T RPG. I would assume that they're gonna do some Faction Wars content for that, but I haven't tapped into that in a hot minute. I'll probably take a look now that I'm not as worried about spoilers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but also just give me a board game. I like give me the give me the Faction Wars board game, man. Like, I'll put that on my shelf in a heartbeat. So, no, I'm it definitely feels true, you know, and like well, in like Civ, for example, you have like uh great generals, and so there are people who, when they're present, they affect the troops around them, which feels very much, you know, like AoE effects or like um not Ellie, uh the the Amani. Amani, thank you. Amani like coming in and just like casting stuff on everybody. Like it's yeah, it feels it's it's living up to its TTRPG, lit RPG.
SPEAKER_03Background.
SPEAKER_00Background, yeah. It's it's uh genre.
SPEAKER_03It's just yet another, it's just another framing, like another floor dynamic that is kind of foreign to me. So I was like just wondering if it lands for somebody with a stronger gaming background.
SPEAKER_00And no surprise, it's actually I think it'll land like depending on how much you like war, right? This one is war times a million. So that is actually probably the biggest drawback for me, and I'm loving it, don't get me wrong, but like the parts where there's big scale battles, I'm kind of like, okay. Like we talked about this when we read Helm's Deep. It was kind of like, okay.
SPEAKER_03Like, I'm sure there's amazing five armies. It's incredible, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_00So awesome. There's then in this case, there's invisible guys, and there's crazy pets, and like, and but you know, it's something there's a big boom. But at the same time, like I live for the the intimate moments, interpersonal moments. And so, granted, almost every big battle has those, but that's but I'm reading through paying attention, but I'm reading through all the action to get to that stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the moments of connection really matter, yeah, and we're we're both like that. We we have definitely established that. Um the Helm's Deep is a really good comparison because I forgot that, but it is exactly the same way. However, with this new floor, with this new dynamic, with the military applications, the Denneman has found yet another way to amp up the action, right? So they are not only is Carl fighting a war on multiple levels, the team is genuinely fighting on multiple fronts.
SPEAKER_00Um to they're getting regiment tattoos. Like, what are we talking about?
SPEAKER_03Crazy. Um, yeah, it's it's a good thing. Cheese sticks and slugolos losing their mind. And yeah, we're seeing some stuff and the regiment names too. Um yeah, just another way to level up the action. Well, for sure.
SPEAKER_00And like change the vibe, right? As we said in our elevator pitch, you never get bored because almost every floor, it's like, oh yeah, you thought you thought you figured us out. It's gonna be completely different.
SPEAKER_03We're switching it up.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03And then the use of trenches. So trenches are not a thing in any type of anything, no games that I've played, no books that I've read, you know. And uh they he found a way to make trenches interesting and uh a low-key terrifying um in that first half. So neat.
SPEAKER_00Neat. The closest I can think of is like, did you ever play, I don't know what it's called, like the pipes game? Most rudimentary game of all time, but like there's there's like sludge coming, like lime green sludge, and it's on a grid, and you have like pipes that you can lay to try to keep the sludge away from like from spilling or whatever. Oh and I know that's like dumb and it's not fully trench related, but to me it's like, yeah, so like you throw in a trench right in a spot that then you know creates like like the whenever they put water in one and then poison the water, like that kind of thing. Yes, that kind of that's the closest I can think to like what do I know? What have I played where that was kind of the dynamic? Um, and that's the closest I could come.
SPEAKER_03And then the other part of that is just, you know, they found another exploit that nobody else has been able to take advantage of, but they are, you know, because everybody gets these trench scrolls, but they never have an opportunity to use them in regular gameplay. But because they're faction warlords, they get to leverage this donut hole, this um uh princess posse? Yeah, no, the royal court of princess. What are we talking about? What is it called? The thing where it's a it's a weak spot, like it's an oversight, it's a exploit? Exploit. There we go. Okay, sorry. I thought you just said that's really, really hard. I did just say it nice.
SPEAKER_00I think you and I are both like running a little slower, like our at least me especially, and maybe I'm rubbing off on you.
SPEAKER_03Maybe, or, or maybe I'm still writing a term paper. Who knows?
SPEAKER_00Fair enough.
SPEAKER_03Uh, so we got through some of the mechanics conversations, but can we just talk about for better or for worse? How epic was Rosetta taking out King Rust?
SPEAKER_00My word. My first mistake, what do you do? Like, you're gonna ruin it. But then I was like, but get him, girl. Like, get him. Essentially,
Rosetta’s Revenge And A King Falls
SPEAKER_00yeah, it was like how Carl reacted, where he's like, blame her.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was damn majestic. That's how I the way it was like I can't even get mad at her.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not mad at all. And then she robbed him blind, just yes, no notes. Yes, and then kept rubbing it in too that they were they were broke, which was hilarious.
SPEAKER_03Donut is ruthless, donut is absolutely ruthless, and I honestly am not mad about it because as she grows up, matures, evolves. Um, yeah, her her digs are on point.
SPEAKER_00I live for her burns. Like no one does it better.
SPEAKER_03So while we are talking about donut, we get into just one more um of the former crawler perspective chapters from a crawler called Volteague.
Voltigue’s Tragedy And The Ultimate Sacrifice
SPEAKER_03Um, and I don't know if you caught it, and I don't think I necessarily caught it on my first read, but Volteague also was given a pet biscuit and was transformed and had a pretty sad story. Um, but there were some things about Volteague's story that stood out to me. Specifically, he was talking about uh they, I don't actually know if Volteague had a gender. Um, they were talking about how just because they were given the pet biscuit doesn't mean they instantly had intelligence or comprehension, and that that came later and that there were changes associated with it. Um so in uh in a world where we're talking about donut and we have seen some slightly erratic behavior, more erratic than you would expect from her. It got me thinking, I didn't know if that stood out to you while you were reading it, either the times that you went through.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I was definitely like, oh, well, we definitely saw development in donut, but I don't know if it took as long as the third floor, I think is what he said, whenever he finally started to kind of like understand what was going on. Um, but no, it did it definitely did ping me.
SPEAKER_03And then the other part of that is obviously life after the crawl, where Voltigue didn't have any of what he was before transformation, and also didn't have any of their special abilities. Which feels ridiculous the crawl.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like if they can transform him into that, he should retain the abilities of a gargoyle. Like that makes sense to me. I don't know. Makes me mad.
SPEAKER_03But I love that we got all of that build-up because then we got almost immediate payoff, yeah, with Voltig um sacrificing himself for the cause in a very, very epic way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And single-handedly taking out one of the factions.
SPEAKER_00I mean, just slay. And that is one that I had to the first read, I had to like rewind because I was like, wait, who is this? What's going on? What's he doing? Like, I couldn't tell. Like, wait, he's he's for one of the factions. I think the thing I've missed was that he wasn't on the Princess Posse, like, like that he had infiltrated the the factions.
SPEAKER_03So he was on the factions.
SPEAKER_00He was on the I can't remember the the block operatic.
SPEAKER_03Oh yes. The operatics.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the operatics. Right, right, right. And so, like, that was the part I missed. And so, whenever he was doing his suicide run, I was just like, oh my gosh. Wait, is that really happening? Um, so I mean, bless Voltig. And Rosetta's reaction. So I assume Rosetta knew based on her reaction after the fact. Yeah. And no one's told Carl yet.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_03So and then the last piece just that, you know, Voltig carried Voltig had met Porthos and carried all that guilt that he carried the cookbook and he only wrote in it once. And he didn't feel it's not stated, you know, but I imply heavily based on what's mentioned in that chapter, that he doesn't feel like a real cookbook author. He doesn't feel like a real member of the resistance because he's done so little.
SPEAKER_00Um he made up for it. He certainly made up for it. Spectacularly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So it was just that was just a heck of a thing. And that was immediate, right? Like we were introduced to them and then they were gone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, I I really enjoyed that part. It was really sweet and really sad, and how he gave a shout-out to was it Mozart? You know, he'd really gotten into classical music and that he was like blaring it. And I wish, and I I I bet Matt Dinnam is answered this question. Like, what was he actually listening to? Like, you know, the action. I don't know. Yeah, I would love to know that.
SPEAKER_03Um, fun side note, I downloaded uh the Matt Dinneman playlist off Spotify this week so that I could run to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I can't wait.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Um, and that brings us to the last real showdown for this half of the book, which is an interaction between Orin, Carl, eventually Donut, and Growler Gary. Only we're not really Growler
Growler Gary Is Not Gary
SPEAKER_03Gary, are we?
SPEAKER_00No, we're not.
SPEAKER_03We are an unhinged and untethered AI and asking for relationship advice from Donut. And I still found myself surprised after seven books. Um, he manifested a scenario I still didn't see coming. Um thoughts, feelings, opinions on this interaction.
SPEAKER_00I will say, I don't know if I was supposed to know what he was alluding to. Was I supposed to know what he was alluding to?
SPEAKER_03I'm disagreeing with you. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00I think like once we went to the um the faction leaders council, the battle lord council, and they mentioned is that what happened? Or when whenever we found out essentially that one system had gone dark, like a former crawl system had gone dark, I thought, like, okay, is his girlfriend the AI for that system? You know, like are the AIs communicating across the universe, or is his girlfriend juice box? Like who, like who I'm anyways, yeah, I'm Skolapendra, because I don't know.
SPEAKER_03So I can tell you one answer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So the girlfriend that they're referencing in the beginning is Agatha, the she does say Agatha. That's right. Yes. However, they mentioned that whoever the ex-boyfriend in jail has another ex-girlfriend that is also kind of talking to him on the sly. We don't know how, and we don't know who that player is. Okay, that's yeah. I didn't get it out of that.
SPEAKER_00Right. So in my brain, I'm like, are these AIs? Are these who are these who are these people who are who what's going on?
SPEAKER_03Like so we know that Agatha is a residual, right? Which is like a presence of a former AI.
SPEAKER_00Wait, what? The residuals are I thought they were like a race, or not even a race, but like a no, I thought they were just like people to people from the outside that had worked their way into the dungeon somehow. Not true. They're a specific, they're an AI.
SPEAKER_03I'm like, hold on. I don't I don't dare Google it. Um, I know that they I thought that the whole idea is that they let me let me rep on that. They definitely come in with the intention of educating the new AI. Yes, yes, because they are essentially being held hostage by the crawl and are not told how they can feed themselves, take care of themselves, or anything like that. So it's they treat it as a hostage situation. I might have inferred that Agatha and residuals in general are somehow former AI.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's interesting. I thought they were like one of the early at least the one that we met with Carl. Polly. I thought Polly was just one of the brain worms. Like he like got into Polly via brain worm, but they also said that humans have an interface, so like I guess maybe he could have gotten into Polly via an interface. Unknown. Let us know if we should know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like spoiler-free.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I can also go back and look at it because we know that like details get lost in the shuffle here. Amen. Yeah. Um, and then we see Juice Box do something really epic. And well, let's not discount the awkward dinner party of a warlord meeting that they had, right? So we got people are getting punched, people are getting kicked out,
Warlord Dinner Chaos And Juice Box Transforms
SPEAKER_03um Cascadia is wasted, yeah, and Rosetta, um, Odat rather shows up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Juice Box makes a scene.
SPEAKER_00Major scene.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Scary looking. I need to see fan art of what the heck she looks like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm a little scared, but yes, I would.
SPEAKER_00Just based on the description, I don't think I'll like it.
SPEAKER_03I do want to tell you one thing that is not told in the audio. What juice box changed into is called the unwashed.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03Just for your information, because I wanted to know. No, I like I looked it up.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03Because I was like, I I think we're gonna find out in a little bit, but I wanted it, it was obviously the very last thing that happened before we broke. Uh, so I just thought I'd share that with you. That's what it's called. Beyond the wash.
SPEAKER_00Sounds demony.
SPEAKER_03Definitely sounds menacing and not at all like a problem. So that brings us to first off, another really great breaking point. We picked a point with tension.
SPEAKER_00We did. We did.
SPEAKER_03We did a good job.
SPEAKER_00We did.
SPEAKER_03Uh, any other notes for you, Craig?
SPEAKER_00Um touch up. Oh, yes. Okay. So I when Donut showed up in Orin's office and then yelled like, Damascus, what are you doing here? And ran out the door and then came back, she did something. I don't know if she dropped a doggy door. I don't know what she did. She did something. I don't believe it was just like, oh, what are you doing here? Leave the room and come back. Absolutely not. She's smarter than that. And I don't know what she could have possibly done, but like something happened there. I'm just making a prediction. And that's all. That's all. That's all I had for this. Love it.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely love it. Um, we're gonna go into our faves and our runner-up and MVP, and I have picked zero things. So I am gonna be picking off the cuff for all of our picks. This is gonna be great. Yeah, um, I will give you the
Favorites Runner-Up MVP And Final Predictions
SPEAKER_03option to go first. Do you have a favorite mob slash fight?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, I'm gonna violate our rules so bad again. Um, but I'm gonna pick the AI because that was kind of creepy. Like, really, and usually I'm like, oh, AI's team Carl, so I'm team AI. Now I'm not really sure. Now I don't know. I feel like the AI might just be the big bad here, but we'll see. And the menace is is heightening.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So you took my answer, so I'll switch. Uh, but he was low-key terrifying in that. So when his voice changed pitch, and you know, he sounded like he was possessed.
SPEAKER_00Um stick with the metaphor, whatever it was. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh yeah, no, he was scary. It was it was good, well delivered. So because we did that, I'm gonna go with um Rosetta killing King Russ because it's such an epic superhero movie moment. Um, and even though we don't really know Rosetta's full story, I have no doubt that it is well deserved and it's the culmination of years of heartbreak for her that she's able to, you know, exact vengeance on him. I have no doubt.
SPEAKER_00One of the most like slay queen moments in the entire series, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_03So that'll go that'll go down as my fave. It wasn't really a fight, but it was epic.
SPEAKER_00It was epic.
SPEAKER_03Um, any other fave moments? I think we already I think we covered a lot. Okay, great. Yeah, so then we're gonna go into runner up. This is the part of the game where we pick who is our runner-up and MVP for the first half of this book. And Critter looks confident. I am gonna I actually thought about this.
SPEAKER_00I thought about this ahead of time, and that is never what I do. I usually roll in expecting to change my mind or think whatever. My runner-up MVP is Volteague because what an absolute legend. You know, he comes in as a pet, picks a race that ends up being just exactly the wrong thing for him and his personality and his relationships. He suffers for it outside of the dungeon, and yet, and he's got guilt, he's just laden with guilt for not doing what he wishes he would have done with the cookbook, and he finally, in his mind, in such an epic fashion, makes up for it. Like, what a what a legend. I that's yeah, like it was it would that was an easy one for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good one. That's a really good one. For me, I'm gonna go a little out of pocket for my runner-up. I wanna pick uh Baroness Victory because I feel like we are at a point in the story where there is so much happening outside of the dungeon that is so crucial to our team and that she is coming in clutch in ways that they couldn't do for themselves. So I feel like it's really easy for me to give her runner-up for this half.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so MVP critter.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so my MVP for this half of this inevitable ruin might surprise you. It is Mordecai. Because he helped develop the cure, obviously. And he was working on the cure before he even had Rosetta there to help him with it. Um, they just kind of modified it to apply to Carl as well. And then in the moment when Carl could have died in 17 ways, Mordecai realized what was going on, like played the people that were surveilling him, said he was making one potion, made another one, and saved Carl's life a thousand times over, and made it so that one of the I mean, it wasn't necessarily well, kind of kind of what he did ultimately got rid of one of the factions as well. So I feel like Mordecai, I mean, you know how much I love Carl. Mordecai protected Carl. King.
SPEAKER_03And that's a solid, like we totally skated over that part of the story, too. So that's a solid. So I'm glad we got stuff about it. Yes. Um, so I'm also gonna go a little off brand for me as well. I'm gonna go with Horthus as my MVP, as the head author, to my knowledge, who has manifested this influx of former crawlers and cookbook authors and mercenaries. Because I believe without that influx, the first half of this book would look very, very, very different.
SPEAKER_00Oh god. I mean, I mean, great choice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So I feel like Porthos is the one for me for this half because he clearly is the brains behind how all of them got there, and it's giving this team a real fighting chance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it's a great choice, which is so funny because now, like, who's gonna be the MVP for the book? Time will tell. Time will tell. Oh, we also didn't talk about Carl's tattoo. I don't know what it's gonna be. A dri a chain shaped like a dragon, like, and it's that he stole an ability that Lee Na has?
SPEAKER_03Yes. No, Lee June. It's the brother.
SPEAKER_00Wait, he already got Li Jun's eye. I thought it was that he had to get Lee Na. I thought, right? Like I thought he got something from Lee Na because he already had something from Li Jun.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and it was voluntary. Sorry, got it swapped.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, um, and so I that's why the chain makes sense.
SPEAKER_03That's why the chain makes sense because she has the chains.
SPEAKER_00I forgot about the chains. Okay, and the dragon-there are dragons, there are dragons there. Oh yeah, dragon. Um, but also like I thought the dragon that she had was her card. Like, does she have an ability that summons dragon? I don't know. I'm just like, I'm I'm excited to find out. We'll have to go back and look.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I don't retain a lot about other people's abilities.
SPEAKER_00I just remember the tail end of last book. I recall somebody, Carl, observing dragons, and like at some point. So I I assume they were cards because they talked about, you know, obviously they went to Japan or whatever, and you assume there's gonna be dragons there, but whatever. Um, sorry, that was a big aside at the very end. Uh, but I felt like, yeah, that's a big mystery that we're gonna have to get solved.
SPEAKER_03It was amazing. Yeah, and and what would it be, an episode without any tangents?
SPEAKER_00Amen.
SPEAKER_03Not in this economy.
SPEAKER_00Not much where they're dragons.
SPEAKER_03No, definitely not. So, with that, we're going to say thank you for joining us. And our direction would be to read the rest of Dungeon Crawler Carl book seven, This Inevitable Ruin, for our next episode, which is going to be dropping on August 18th.
What To Read Next And Where To Follow
SPEAKER_03We want to say thank you so much for tuning in to our 13th episode of season seven of Butt Are There Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sedai and Critter XD. Don't forget to follow us on Butt Are There Dragons on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and Butt Dragons Pod Just One T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as CritterXD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. New achievement. Bye-bye, fail safe reward.
SPEAKER_00Yes, bye.
