Coming off a delightful Thanksgiving and cherishing family fun, we kick things into high gear, inviting you to join our dialogue on the intricacies of communication and connection. We've all been there, that moment when the fear of judgment and failure keeps us on the sidelines, hindering open and authentic communication. Lindsay offers first-hand insights into this struggle and the empowering journey of overcoming it.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Coming off a delightful Thanksgiving and cherishing family fun, we kick things into high gear, inviting you to join our dialogue on the intricacies of communication and connection. We've all been there, that moment when the fear of judgment and failure keeps us on the sidelines, hindering open and authentic communication. Lindsay offers first-hand insights into this struggle and the empowering journey of overcoming it.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland and this is Lindsay, and this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:Connection and the art of communicating.
Speaker 1:Oh, the art of communicating. That sounds very interesting. I can't wait to get into that topic, but first, but first.
Speaker 2:What did you eat this?
Speaker 1:week. So this last week was Thanksgiving, at least the previous week before. We took a week off because we have the family here and it was a really good time a lot of celebration, so much fun.
Speaker 2:So much fun. Love having all of the kids in one place, and my mom and your grandma, jean.
Speaker 1:Grandma Jean. We tried to get her, her new boyfriend, to come out, but he's shy. And then my brother actually came all the way back from vacation. Cabo sent from Cabo to investigate what is going on with grandma and her new boyfriend. I don't think he's happy.
Speaker 2:Thanksgiving. She did say I'm 80, baby, I can have a boyfriend.
Speaker 1:I can have what I like. So if he listens to this episode, they're not doing anything, they're just for grandma be happy. Let grandma be happy. But what did I eat? You made so that day. You made some amazing, some amazing food. You had the roast. It was what? Not the turkey, what was? It that we made.
Speaker 2:Well, the night before we had some company too, and we had the vegan butternut squash lasagna which was amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my oldest son, our oldest son, came over the night before me at some. Yeah, that was amazing.
Speaker 2:That's one of his favorites, so I made it for him. On Thanksgiving we had a like a vegan turkey right, yeah, it was a vegan turkey Originally. We were going to make the I was going to make my own, but I didn't really have time and we had a lot of people coming over, and so we used one of the frozen ones. But we had all the fixings and everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cranberry, You'd made the really good mashed potatoes butternut squash, green beans, a salad.
Speaker 2:We had everything. It was delicious. One of the vegan cheese tray that's right From.
Speaker 1:Rebel Cheese From Rebel Cheese so good. I kind of almost want to do a Rebel Cheese commercial, but they're not one of our sponsors yet.
Speaker 2:But they are going to be on Shark Tank soon, so if you're in search of some really good vegan cheese, I have to say this is like second to none.
Speaker 1:Yeah, second to none. It was really good. I totally forgot about that. And where do we go? For those of us, for those of you who live in the New York area, who might want to try some vegan cheese, where's a good place for them to go? Lenz.
Speaker 2:Riverdale and I think Riverdale sells some of the Rebel Cheese actually in the Essex market. Yeah, it's one of my Down on Essex Street so yeah, sometimes you get it delivered to the office to bring it home. But I'm trying to lose a little weight so I'm trying to stay away from the vegan cheese right now, but it is quite delicious.
Speaker 1:So, lenz, let me ask you something what is your devil of the week, or what was the challenge that you had to overcome this week?
Speaker 2:Right. So I had breath work on Friday and coaching with Trish one of my favorite people who hopefully will be on the show next week and she and I were talking about what is between where I am now and where I want to be. And I said fear, Fear of failure, fear of judgment and criticism and like fear of not looking the part where I want to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of I want to say imposter syndrome, but then when you said it I don't think that's kind of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:No, not really. I think just more of you know I have all these ideals and these things that I want to do, but it's like of people looking at me and being like, oh, she swears or she's a little chubby or whatever it is, and so is that going to get in the way of people you know, seeing me like authentically in that role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not. You're not chubby, you are just right. I might have to edit that out. Thank you.
Speaker 2:But what was your devil of the week?
Speaker 1:Wait a minute. We do have the explicit tag, so I can do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, you didn't even talk about the turkey soy curls I made.
Speaker 1:Oh, the turkey soy curls. I wanted to say that before I get in that devil of the week, lindsay made this delicious, amazing turkey soy curl sandwich with cranberry sauce on it and gravy.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was awesome. It was awesome. The soy curls are awesome. My devil of the week has been my devil of my lifetime, which is learning and it's funny because it's going to go into today's topic which is communication. Which is learning the value of, as one of my colleagues likes to say, the using the economy of words. Which is learning to say more with less. And that has constantly been a challenge of mine and I have continued to work on it and refine it and I think that has been my devil of the week.
Speaker 2:You know what I would love to see be your devil of the week in the future not having a diarrhea of the text when you're mad at me. Oh, that is true, because you just love to text, even from downstairs, and then I don't see it for hours later and it just feels so shitty to have someone send you all those crazy texts. Crazy texts, yeah, it really doesn't. Really, I'm going to be like you know, really transparent. It feels terrible to like open up your phone and have this barrage of texts because you were like in some kind of mood about something and you need to take it out on someone.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good, right, because that segue leads us into what we're talking about, which is communication and proper communication, and oftentimes, communicating with oneself. When I do that, it's not necessarily because I am trying to barrage you with texts, because I'm trying to communicate, right.
Speaker 2:I think you get your feelings out that way. Yes, and it was really early in the morning so it really wasn't even the time to have like a conversation that was loud, but right, I think what you said is right, like communicating with yourself is so important. Right, because when we can communicate better with ourselves, then we can enhance our communication with other people. I'm reading this book for my meditation, training the art of communication, or the art of communicating, by Tic Tac Nan, and one of the things that he says in the book, one of the first things, is that loneliness is the suffering of our time. What do you think about?
Speaker 1:that I think when we look out at the world today and we look out I think the Surgeon General actually had a comment on this where I know the Surgeon General had a comment on this where he said that the number one danger to most Americans today is loneliness, and we live in this unusual time where we are together but alone.
Speaker 2:Right and that was one of the other things that I had read was that we are connected all the time. We have all these devices at our fingertips, even right now on the show. Right, we're in front of a bunch of devices and we are so connected to these devices, yet we are so lonely. Yeah, to quote Jimmy Buffett in his song everybody's on the phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everybody's on the phone.
Speaker 2:He says everybody's on the phone, so connected and all alone.
Speaker 1:And it's unusual, right, and when we look at everything that's going on in the world today, I think you can see it right that people just don't know how to communicate it. I was listening to a podcast the other day and there's an organization called Braver Angels, which is an organization that unites Republicans and Democrats together so that they can talk and communicate and they can exchange ideas, but we are all so siloed and that question that you asked me just made me think that people are siloed, right, people are in their own echo chambers and they're alone and they don't know how to communicate.
Speaker 2:But even when they're with other people. And I think about that time that we dropped the middle one off at college in August and then we were like, oh, let's go take a walk in the park. And we pulled up into this little park and it had a walking trail and there were so many families, and do you remember how many people were?
Speaker 1:on their phones Everyone.
Speaker 2:Everybody was on their phone, they weren't looking at nature, they weren't even talking to the people that were walking with them, but almost everybody with. I think you can probably count on one hand the number of people that did not have a device In their hand while they were taking a walk, which meant they were connected to this device and so disconnected from what they were actually doing, and they were like walking but not even realizing they were walking. They're with family, but not even realizing that they were with family, or even with friends, and so I think that's the truth we're so connected, yet we're alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. Everybody's on the phone, all connected, but all alone. If I, if I felt like I could sing right now, I would have sang the lyrics, but that goes back to self-awareness, right and mindfulness and connecting with yourself.
Speaker 2:Right, and once you can connect with yourself, I actually don't like to be on the phone that much and I feel like I'm on it more, like actually less often than usual, and I leave it in other rooms of the house and I know that you do that too and then I'm always pinging it to find it where it is, because I'll use it if I'm making something and I want to check a recipe or get an idea for something, and then I leave it in the kitchen and I come upstairs and someone for work is like texting me. I'm calling you, I'm calling you and I'm like I don't even know where the phone is. And then you got to get the watch out, which I don't even you know. You were saying to me today like that I don't even have the Apple watch on all the time.
Speaker 2:Right, you were like what's going on with you and that watch that we bought? And I truthfully, only like the watch for exercise. Yeah, that's why I wear the watch, so I can monitor how many steps I'm taking and how many minutes of exercise I get. But it's pinging on my wrist all day and most useful thing about that watch is, yes, the exercise, but also telling me where my phone is?
Speaker 1:Yes, and what time it is. I want to go back to what you talked about in the very beginning, which was we had a miscommunication this week, which is common in marriages and relationships and families and I barraged you with text messages one morning. And it goes to go back to this point of what we're talking about, which is self awareness. Right, if I was more aware about what was going on or what was being said, or even aware about what was what happened that upset you, I wouldn't have been so keen on hammering my point hammering not Right and I hammering my point.
Speaker 2:What my problem is is and it was evident right from my lack of response to your text is that you're, you're like fight and I'm flight. So when we get into those situations I'm going to be one of two things I'm either going to be a crazy angry bitch or I'm going to run and hide and you're not going to hear from me all day. And it depends on what you know, which way the wind blows, right. And so I think I said to you and we've talked about it before in other situations, but that's going to be my default setting. Sure, your default setting is the fight. You want to come in and Right.
Speaker 2:So if, if, if, we could change right, if you could change that angry kind of pushing at me thing, then I can change my default setting. But the default setting that you have, that like bombarding me with texts or getting really angry, that is a trigger for me. That then pushes me into either being really mad and fighting back or just going and hiding. And the biggest thing I've gotten out of this mindfulness training recently is just being quiet and not saying anything and feeling my emotions and you know seeing what happens. So and that's been a problem.
Speaker 1:So I know we've been For our whole relationship, but not even our whole relationship, right, that's been a problem for my whole life, right when I had a boss that I was cool with once, and even a colleague was like oh my God, I'm so surprised that this email you were upset about something and I was I was really upset About something and I was. I was ready for your barrage of your six paragraph email and you and you didn't do that. And and one of the things that I've worked to improve on is self awareness but this isn't just about you and I, but this is about the folks that listen to our show who might be struggling with with couples, Right, and so what's something that you would suggest to somebody?
Speaker 2:I do that also in other relationships. If someone is pissing me off, I don't respond and I go into that mode. That it's this art of communicating Right. It's disconnect from the devices and be with your person, and you have to be able to look at your partner and say, hey, this is my shit, me getting angry or running away Like I know that that's mine to fix, but if you could bring something else to the table, I might be able to learn to react in a different way. And and our patterns come from childhood trauma yeah Right, I'm not being heard, seen, supported, respected, whatever it is, but in and I tell this to my clients often if you change your behavior and your partner still reacts the same way, you're going to see if they're able to make the change or not. And then you get a lot of answers in your relationship. So, but I don't want to, you know, kind of get off topic.
Speaker 1:So no, we are. We still are on topic with the whole topic. Is that purse? Basically, to communicate effectively, it starts with yourself, right? So for me, I'll use myself as an example for me to communicate effectively. Something that you once said to me is does it need to be said now? Does it need to be, does it what?
Speaker 2:was it you say it needs to be said by me? Does it need to be said now and does it need to be said at all?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that takes a quality of self awareness. It takes mindfulness.
Speaker 2:It takes a mind. I mean, mindfulness is the big thing for me right now. Right, we had a thing where you spilled a glass of wine on my white shirt today.
Speaker 1:Oh, I just knew I was in a ton. I just knew I was in it. I just knew I was in a ton of trouble.
Speaker 2:I was like oh well, just throw it in the garbage.
Speaker 1:It's just a shirt.
Speaker 2:But that is what this mindfulness training has done for me Is it's put me in this place of just being like, ok, that's really not that big of a deal, and but that came from the last. You know. Four or six, maybe weeks now I've been in this training of really sitting and breathing and disconnecting from all of the external stuff so that I can connect more deeply with myself. And a shirt isn't important, right? Cleaning the dishes isn't that important, but the way that you sit in your suffering and develop compassion and healthy communication skills is important.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that's benefited our relationship and I carry this over into other relationships we talk about our bickering and arguing Just to give you guys an example that healthy couples bicker and argue from time to time. But it's how you handle that bickering and arguing and I think one of the things that I've continued to work on, and other folks continue to work on, is like actively listening to yourself and understanding like what it is that I'm trying to communicate.
Speaker 2:Right, and and that kind of comes to the next point of when we do that, we connect with our own suffering. Right, like the trauma from your past, your reaction is a result of trauma you've experienced the way I react as a result of trauma I've experienced. And so when you connect with your own suffering, you learn to be more compassionate and open with other people and then you connect more deeply with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's important and I think it's important to set clear intentions, one of the reasons why we have have had miscommunications. Listen, we've been married for five years.
Speaker 1:We've been together for almost five years next week, almost five years of anniversaries coming up and we've been together for eight years. But I think one of the things that we've done to correct almost nine years, almost nine years, almost a decade Time flies when you have in fun, time flies when you're having time flies when you're having fun. But I think one of the most important things and this is something that I fail to do from time to time I do it, and I fail to do it in my professional life too it's sometimes set clear intentions. Right when I talked about my devil of the week is, I want to make sure that I'm not just running off at my mouth is because sometimes I have a tendency and other people do I'm just using myself as an example which is to talk and not even have what am I saying, like, why am I talking? And? And that leads not setting a clear intent, leads to miscommunication. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I think so. I think that you but I think that's your way of like of almost dealing with your suffering and anxiety Whereas I go internal, you start to tell the story externally to other people to get all the feedback, because then that helps you to feel better. For me, I sit and cry Right. Right. We're like very opposite. We were out with friends last night and said the same thing that they were very opposite to, and I think the woman said opposites attract.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's true. So it is true, but I think you have become more aware of it and I try to communicate with you in the moment in a in a better way, so I can say what I'm feeling, and I try to own my own emotions and not put it on you, but just to say like, when this happens, this is what happens to me.
Speaker 1:And I think what's important too is when you have that communication it's either successful or fails is to have reflection Right. When we disagree, or when I have a disagreement with someone at work or in the or another family member, I often go back and say what failed in that conversation.
Speaker 2:Right. What role did I play in it? And it's. This is in every relationship. When there is some kind of downfall or something happens, what role did I play in it? Right, even in horribly look abusive relationships, what role did I play?
Speaker 1:And it's important to look at that because no matter the relationship, every person plays a role in that relationship and we often get comfortable in the role and then that becomes that default for us, and it makes me go back to think about what I listened to an expert once say is that the problem oftentimes of communication is no one wants to accept. Everyone needs to be the hero of the story and oftentimes what happens is folks don't want to accept their part in what they did to create miscommunication.
Speaker 2:Yes, and another thing that I was thinking about when I was doing some reading and planning for the show with you was that there's really two key components to communicating with people. The first one is deeply listening, and then the second one and let me know what you think about this is loving speech, which means telling people the truth, even when it's hard to hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, it's very important. Oftentimes I sit down with clients and I sit down with colleagues and coworkers and the first thing they tell me is oh, I don't want conflict, I don't like to fight. And conflict is important because conflict is the way that you resolve a difference of opinion.
Speaker 2:Well, it's how you. If you don't want any conflict, then that means that you're willing to compromise your authenticity to please somebody else, instead of standing strong in what you believe in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's why it's really important to understand, to really understand. Go back to my initial, to what we talked about a little bit, which is set a clear intention when you communicate, but right Don't, and often what leads to arguments and misunderstandings is not even being sure what it is that you want to talk about.
Speaker 2:Well, it's hard for people to communicate and having difficult conversations.
Speaker 2:Again, learning to tell people the truth is a big thing that comes up.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it comes up in your sessions with clients, but it comes up in sessions with my clients where people are afraid to communicate their own feelings to their partner because they don't like the way that their partner reacts.
Speaker 2:But the problem is is that we learn a lot from our partner in how they react to our boundaries and our clear communication, and so if we don't communicate with them, then this resentment builds up, and I'm seeing that with a couple of clients now that are having some problems in their relationships. Is that the resentment is building up because, oh, I don't want to say this, because then the reaction will be, and I know how the reaction is they get angry or they yell at me, or they have a mental health issue, and so I don't want to disturb that. So it's like OK, so you should just live in this unhappy state of limbo because you don't want to come to the table and say, hey, this is how I feel, I know it's mine, but can you come to the table with something else, yeah, and I think what I found with clients, especially with couples that are suffering with communication problems, is that there's really there's talking, and then there's listening, and then there's actually having a real back and forth, which is a dialogue.
Speaker 1:I had a client a while ago who talked about that his partner was upset with him because he doesn't do things the way or he doesn't communicate with his family in the way that she thinks that he should communicate, and oftentimes Dr Kovie talks about that in communicating with a partner, it's not your way or my way, it's the right way, and he talks about that in the seven habits of highly successful people when it comes to communication, and I want to know what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2:Well, that reminds me of when couples argue right, there's one person, since it demands, or the woman's perspective, the partner's perspective, and then there's actually what really happened right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. There's always three sides to the story.
Speaker 1:Your side, my side. And what really happened and what really happened.
Speaker 2:And one of the interesting things about folks is sometimes we just see it from our point of view and I have to say that's one of my devils that I need to conquer is that after the fact, I sometimes still want to be right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I once said to you, like, if you already know, if you already know the answer to the question, and why are you asking me? Right, and I think that we're aware of it because we're trained to be aware of it and, as therapists and as counselors, like we're trained to be mindful. But for the vast majority of the folks out there, they don't realize that they might be blocking their own path of communication. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Oh, I say that again.
Speaker 1:I said that a lot of times. Folks don't even realize that the fact that they are already convinced in their own rightness that it blocks communication.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I mean, a lot of people are convinced in their rightness. But it's not about being right, it's about being in a relationship whether it's a romantic relationship, a family relationship, a friendship. You have to be open to other people's perspectives. But I had this with a client this week too, where I also don't try to push people. If I feel someone is really set in their opinion, I'm not going to try to convince them, I'm just going to say OK. And I have a client that just started doing that in his relationship and he said it's really hard for him to not react and not get angry. So you have to just work out those things. All the time we argue rarely. I did go to the basement this week when the washing machine broke and I saw how messy the basement was and I was like we should really have a fight.
Speaker 2:So we have to go clean the basement, but we communicate after the fact and we resolve it and sometimes we talk about it still for a couple of days. But there has to be an openness to being in the relationship and if you really are committed and loyal to your relationship and you want to make it work, then you have to not worry about being right and you need to take the other person's emotions and suffering into account.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you a question how does empathy play into proper and into good communication?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, empathy is, I think, I mean I think that's just as important as compassion. It's you have to really it's about the suffering of other people and really putting yourself into that suffering and feeling that suffering for them. I was actually thinking about that yesterday because we have the kid at college that they had that incident this week, oh yeah, and we received an email that someone had put a camera in the communal dorm bathroom and all of these women were compromised, basically because somebody in the dorm was a male student, was taking video of the young women in the dorm in the shower. And I remember just saying to myself and I don't think I even said this out loud to you, but I felt for his parents- yes.
Speaker 2:Because I thought how hard for them, right, because it's such an embarrassment and it's so sad, right, and obviously this kid is suffering with something. But it's like nobody's thinking about the suffering of those poor parents who sent their kid to college and didn't realize that their child had these horrible struggles, right, and this horrible suffering that caused him to do this. And it's amazing that part of me said I feel bad for these parents because obviously they're going to be on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and judgment. And it's not them, it's not their fault.
Speaker 1:And I like that point because part of what breaks down communication in marriages and friendships and in society today is this lack of empathy. Right, so you're going to have folks that are going to go out and not only go to rightfully be upset with these kids, but then you're going to have folks go out and blame his parents, right and go to attack them. But empathy and communication is important because when you're feeling passionate about something, you want your emotions to be understood right, Absolutely. But what causes arguments is when you don't want to understand the other person's emotions. And I think what you said to that point was being empathetic to a horrible situation, or even being empathetic to hey, I wanted peanut butter and you gave me chocolate.
Speaker 2:Well, we talked about this a few weeks ago in another episode too, when I said I think the parenting episode when I told you about someone I know from high school who posted about a kid who had been driving without a license or a suspended license and killed a police officer and everyone kept saying where were the parents? Where were the parents? And it was. There's no empathy there. Right, we have to think beyond the tragedy, because I'm sure that those parents feel horrible and they don't deserve that kind of treatment or criticism or judgment because their child made a choice.
Speaker 1:And then to your point. Empathy means that you really want to understand what the other person is coming from right, what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:Well, it's understanding, I think. I said it earlier understanding your own suffering, right, sitting in your own suffering and then understanding the suffering of others. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And what happens is Benjamin Franklin once said the only reason two people talk to each other is because the other person is waiting for their turn. I want to ask you what do you think that means? I want to get your interpretation on that. That. He said what Benjamin Franklin once said the only reason two people talk to each other is because the other person is waiting for their turn. And I want to get your interpretation on that.
Speaker 2:Well, I do think people talk just to talk and to fill the space. I always say to you right, I think there was an issue here. If remember, you had an issue at work and you had come home I don't know if you remember this, this was a while ago now, maybe like six or eight months ago, and you retold the story to me so many times because I'm sure you were trying to like make sense of it in your head and I remember I said to you you know what? Why don't we just sit here and for 10 minutes not say anything? Right, I mean, we do like to talk to each other, but it's usually about something. It's not this mindless chatter just to fill the space. And I do, I do agree with that. I think people can't sit quietly Right, and that's where this mindfulness thing comes into face. And I know I into place, but I talk about it like ad nauseam.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I, I mean, the perfect example was today, when you spilled that wine on my shirt and I was like whatever.
Speaker 1:And you were like what I was like what? I'm not in trouble, I'm not getting punished.
Speaker 2:But it's, we don't always have to talk because, like I think, dharma Mitra, my yoga teacher, who I like, love dearly right, he's like mid eighties now and he says you should only speak if what you have to say is of greater value than the silence. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:And that's something I've come to learn. Um, I think sometimes folks just talk to talk or they throw their opinion out there to throw their opinion out there with not with no reaper. The Bible says that the only weapon that is greater than the sword is the tongue, and the tongue can hurt. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because it's you know you're spouting off at the mouth hurts me. When I spout off at the mouth, it hurts you, right? Um, I definitely agree with that. I think that we, we, it's, and it's again, it's just to fill the silence, right? But there's also so much criticism and so much judgment. We were talking about this, you and I, earlier today when we were having breakfast, about how we I can't remember what you said to me, but we talked about how we live in a society where it's people speak to criticize and judge, but never to tell you what good job you're doing, right? Yes, I, I agree with that.
Speaker 2:So you know, the tongue is sharp and you do. That's where that whole compassion, empathy, you know, and like understanding people's suffering, comes into place. Stop and think before you talk. Right, be quiet. I always stop and don't say anything, and I've, much more recently, have started doing something when people talk to me and talk to me and talk to me, where I'm just like okay, and I listen and I don't offer anything. Sometimes people don't even want you to talk in return. I have a lot of opinions, but I just learned that I don't always have to get some, yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the things I learned as a counselor. Becoming a counselor is a lot of times my clients just want to talk. They don't even even necessarily want my feedback.
Speaker 2:They want to come invent. Yes, right, but that's a frustration for me, that's a that's a devil for me. What?
Speaker 1:Why letting somebody vent?
Speaker 2:Because I feel that, no, the devil for me in that is that they don't want to hear what the therapist has to say. And sometimes it's like you just come here and talk about the same thing every week but you're not doing anything about it. And I think it's a struggle for me with the communication because, like, I'm the kind of person where I'm like, if I want to get somewhere, I'm going to go, right, I'm going to figure out how do I bridge the gap between where I am and where I want to be. And it's not always easy, and that's why, with Trish this week, we talked about, like, what is what is holding you back from where you want to be? And for me it was fear. One word, fear, and fear is like a low vibration, right? So it's like, just do one thing at a time. You don't have to look a certain way or sound a certain way to play a part, right, but be who you are, because people actually want you to be authentically who you are, and that's actually what the people want. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I always say and I wrote this in a paper for school recently on it's not, people don't want to know when. When communicating, people don't want to know how much you know, they want to know how much you care, and that is the key to effective communication. A lot of times, what gets us messed up and I'll use and it's not just necessarily you and I, but what messes people up is they want to get you, they want to get their point across without hearing the other person's point.
Speaker 2:And that comes back to this being able to tell people the truth in a nice way. In a nice way, but how do you do that Right? How do you?
Speaker 1:how do you tell someone the truth in a nice way? I want to get that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I've had this with people, right. I mean, we've had this with the oldest of my three, right it's. You know, you have to stop and look at your role in the situation, Right, and I even have this with a colleague often where I say to her you don't need to be so involved in this. Right, you have to be able to speak to people and say to them hey, figure out what your role is in this and why do you need to be so involved? Or why do you need this outcome? Right, why can't you pull yourself back from this? It's about identifying triggers. I think I mean that's a lot of the work I do. I do a lot of that in that inner child work, in my own therapy and my own breath work, because I do think a lot of the patterns that we bring into our adult life come from like inner child wounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to go back and make the argument, not even a argument, but the statement. What you just said is that it goes back to a lot of times when people go to communicate is because they don't even have a clear intention of what they want to communicate. And an angry reaction, right, and I'm thinking of somebody in particular that I know, but you could think this is not a video podcast, cause what you just mouthed, I read the person, I picked it right up.
Speaker 2:But you have a reaction and I actually often play this devil's advocate with this person and I say, well, maybe he wants to spend time with you, right, maybe his reaction is not feeling wanted or supported or seen by his wife, and right, we have to. We just have to be quiet, we just have to shut our damn mouths and read the room and and feel the feels, because what happens is when we're quiet and you, you struggle with this when it comes to meditation. I love meditation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do struggle.
Speaker 2:I love meditation so much, but I didn't always.
Speaker 2:And I and I can tell you right now that when I started on this path, my gosh many years ago and I'll tell you a quick story before we go is that the oldest of mine had a second grade teacher who studied under Dharma Mitra in the city and I was going through the divorce and all of this stuff with my family because my family thought, oh well, you shouldn't get a divorce, right, you should just sit here in this miserable marriage because you have your housewife and you have all the things that you need and all the money that you need.
Speaker 2:And I remember that his teacher said to me go see Dharma Mitra, because when you sit and listen to him give a spiritual talk, the answers will come, and it doesn't matter what he's talking about. Somehow the lesson will apply to your life. And I spent so many years literally laying there, meditating and just sobbing Right, because it's like being quiet is hard, all your shit comes up and all your suffering is right in front of your face and there's nobody to talk to you because the entire room is silent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like what you're saying to me, that the key to clear communication is first being quiet in your own mind and then, instead of trying to prove your point, really trying to genuinely understand what the other person is saying to you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because often your reaction is a result of your own suffering. Right, I'm reacting this way because this is my experience.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and it goes back to what Ben Franklin said is that only reason two people talk is because the other person is waiting for their turn? So, instead of actually listening to what is being communicated, the person's already in their head. Well, I already know what I'm going to say back. I already know what I'm going to say, and that's 90% of why arguments keep going, because, instead of listening to what your partner is saying, you're already in that response and you've caught me with that.
Speaker 2:You're going to be surprised that I'm going to say this, but it's actually probably good that you fight via text, because I don't respond and then it gives us hours to cool down. But that's why.
Speaker 1:I fight via text.
Speaker 2:Don't do it anymore.
Speaker 1:It's the therapist, it's the therapist in me. So, as we, as I, want to ask you one last as one last question boy, does time fly when you're having fun? I like to say that I always have fun with you. Always have fun with you too. Um, how does stress play into miscommunications with couples and people and in life?
Speaker 2:Well, stress activates the nervous system, right Any time. If the nervous system is activated, right, we're going to have a reaction Right, and it's often an emotional reaction, right, and you do that when you had a bad day at work. You come home when I had a bad day and something happened, I'm like blowing up or I'm pissed off, right. And so it's in those moments, sitting in the stress, not reacting Right. That's the biggest message that give my clients when they're arguing with their spouse or their spouse does something. Do not react, because the fastest way for you to see if your spouse is recognizing your change in behavior and is willing to also meet you somewhere in the middle is to not react.
Speaker 1:I remember one day I came home and I had a stressful day, and I usually don't take out what happens at work, at work, um but I had a fight with um, our oldest daughter, um, and I came home and I was like, oh, she's a delight.
Speaker 2:Now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's a delight now, now that she's got her own job and she's making her own apartment and her own apartment and she's making money and her own medical insurance and her own oh definitely her own medical insurance. And I came home and I had we and her and I had had a fight. It was that day that she had said I'm not, I'm going to block you and I was like, please block me.
Speaker 2:I don't even want to see your spouse, yeah.
Speaker 1:But then I came home and I was after the queen mom, I was after you.
Speaker 2:And what did I say to you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you were like what happened, right?
Speaker 2:No what I said to you was I see what you're doing here. You're mad at her, so you want to be mad at everyone else too. To prove a point, you were like, oh shit, right, but it felt good though, but so how do you shut it down right there?
Speaker 1:But you made me aware, right, you made it. And it goes back to the point of the intent. What was my intent? What was the point? What was the point I was trying to make? Or what was I trying to do? And I think what happens in miscommunications and what leads to and when we look at the world scene, especially what's going on in the world right now, where we have wars and reports of wars, it's miscommunication, it's people are angry and they're upset Because people are disconnected, and that's going to be the last point I'm going to make before we go.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're going to do part two. Connect with yourself, breathe, sit, turn off your devices. Don't sit and watch TV all the time. A lot of times, you and I sit in the dark. I'm like I don't even want to watch TV, oh yeah, and we sit and do nothing at night. But learn to sit with yourself and learn to be comfortable with everything that's uncomfortable, right? I mean, that's exactly what the devil you don't know is. And that's why we did this, because it's about getting really comfortable with the uncomfortable path to comfort as we wrap, and I do think that stress management is very important to communication.
Speaker 2:But that's self care. Right. When I feel stressed, it's not like let me yell at Cleve, it's let me take a spin around the block, let me run to the gym and get on the treadmill, let me sit and this is something I do often during the day, but you're not here because I work from home a lot and I'm very fortunate to work for myself. I'm really trying to get you to buy that house in Barbados so I can go live there.
Speaker 1:And I'm trying to get my brother to go into us at the house in Barbados so we can all go live there.
Speaker 2:But I, during the day, I check in with myself, and this is something people can do when they're stressed, at work or anywhere. I check in with myself with my body, I open my mouth, I relax my jaw, I check my shoulders, I drop them, I turn my head from side to side and a lot of times I just I'm fortunate enough to have a meditation space in the house and so I just roll out my map, pull out the cushion and I just sit down and I breathe and I take 10 minutes, because I do believe that we waste much more than 10 minutes a day when we're stressed right, we're not productive, we are feverishly typing or we're yelling at someone or we're busy complaining, but instead go within, go inside of yourself, sit down, check in with yourself physically, check in with yourself mentally, breathe, spend 10 minutes meditating and I can guarantee you're going to come back in a better space and the stress is going to be gone.
Speaker 1:One of the things I love about being a therapist is a lot of times I learn things from clients right, and this goes back to the point that you just made. I had a client the other week who was getting like really antsy was his wife had asked him to help out with the Thanksgiving dinner and he just spazzed out and instead of arguing about like he's as he got, he got more and more frenetic. His wife was like hey, I think you need to go for a run, I think you need to go outside. She could have argued with him, but she didn't. She was like she was empathetic. She realized that he was being stressed and stressed out and said go outside for a run. And I asked him how did that work out? And he was like oh, I drained my battery.
Speaker 2:Right, well, that's what I always say. It drains the battery, but that's also a really good partner, right, who recognizes their partner's suffering.
Speaker 2:Right and says hey, it's not going to benefit him to help me prepare a meal right now, and it isn't going to benefit me either, with him acting crazy like this in the kitchen. I mean, you weren't really in the kitchen on Thanksgiving at all. I just said I'm going to let you know what I need help with and this is your job and that's how you do well, right, and but that's the truth. She knows what her partner needs and this is a big breakdown in relationships when it comes to communication, because there's so much focus on this. I have to be right and I have to do this. This is the way that I want it and I can't move from that. I can't stray from that.
Speaker 2:So, knowing your partner and that's from deep listening and really understanding your partner I know that for you, the gym is a non-negotiable. You need to go to the gym. That drains your battery, you feel better, you look better and you just are happy when you come home. And for me, I sit and meditate religiously every single day and no one's here, so sometimes I'm chanting, I'm burning sage, I have candles going, but I start my day from a place of like calm, right, and I drain my battery so that when I start the day and this is an important point for people is that you have to do these things as a practice religiously, every single day, not just when you're stressed, because when you do that your stress and anxiety threshold is lower, so you can do these things every day and then your anxiety and your battery kind of stays drained. But this is the problem People wait until they're in this moment of panic to practice something and then they're like oh my God, I need to do something right now.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I'm so anxious and it's like but if you did this every day, you would be more connected with yourself, you would recognize the signs and you would recognize how your body feels before you get to that stage of complete and utter panic. And then you hit rock bottom and you're like I need a therapist right now, I need to go to therapy right now. I need to go find a therapist, I need to go and go out for a run and I need to meditate and I don't know what to do. Right, but you do know what to do, because all of us have the tools within us to listen to our bodies and to drain the battery, but we just don't use them because we don't think that we have the time.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and a lot of times we're upset with ourselves or upset with another situation, which leads to miscommunication. We're about to wrap, but and, lindsay, I'll let you, because I'm a good, I'm learning to be a good communicator, I'll let you get the great communicator. I do okay. I do okay. From time to time I want to ask you and I'll let you put the closing points. Are some? So if I was sitting in your office with you right now and I was a client and I needed you to give me some quick pointers or some summaries of how to better communicate, just in a quick summary, what are the key points that we want our listeners to take away when it comes to better communication?
Speaker 2:Deep listening, disconnecting from devices and being present within yourself. And then being able to identify and this is a hard one sometimes we could talk about this another week, but being able to identify what the communication is triggering in you or the lack thereof is triggering in you, and identifying your own emotions, because that's the key when you can identify my partner did this and I feel this. Then you could say, okay, well, I've got to figure out where that comes from and how to resolve it within myself.
Speaker 1:And the last thing I want to add and I just to co-sign off of what you said is in the Bible and believe. If you believe in the Bible or not, this is said. The golden rule is treat others how you want to be treated, talk to people in the way that you want to be talked to and hopefully the communication should. If you have a reasonable partner or you're talking to a reasonable person, the communication should go well from there.
Speaker 2:Right, and if your partner is not able to meet you there, then it might not be the partner for you, or they're just not ready yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds good. As we wrap. Is there anything else that you want to add? I don't think so Okay, what are we going to talk about next time?
Speaker 2:I'm not even sure yet. Oh, we'll figure it out, we will, I'd like to have a couple of guests.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're definitely going to have some guests coming up. 2024 is going to be an exciting year. We have a big vacation coming up. I can't wait, can't wait. Three weeks off. Maybe we'll record on vacation, maybe we won't.
Speaker 2:We should. It'll be like a relaxed version of ourselves, without the office and the external stresses.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a plan. This has been another episode of the devil, you don't know. Okay, we'll see you next time.