Can you pinpoint what makes you angry? Our rollercoaster ride of emotions often has us labeling ourselves as angry, but isn't it something deeper we're feeling? In our discussion today, Lindsay and I, Cleveland, delve into the heart of anger, peeling back the layers to reveal what's truly at its core. Lindsay's unique perspective on emotions is a compass, guiding us to understand our feelings better. We reflect on the state of the world, the destructive nature of unaddressed anger, and how to identify the root cause of this overpowering emotion in our journey to manage it effectively. But it's not all gloom and doom. Drawing from our experiences, we underline the power of community, connection, and empathy in grappling with these feelings. As we're amid the holiday season, we encourage you to draw upon these virtues, keep your emotions in check, prioritize self-care, and nurture healthy relationships. We share tools and resources for managing anger, emphasizing mindfulness and physical exercise. So, whether you're feeling a pang of anger or merely intrigued by the concept, join us in this enlightening conversation as we unravel the intricacies of this powerful emotion.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Can you pinpoint what makes you angry? Our rollercoaster ride of emotions often has us labeling ourselves as angry, but isn't it something deeper we're feeling? In our discussion today, Lindsay and I, Cleveland, delve into the heart of anger, peeling back the layers to reveal what's truly at its core. Lindsay's unique perspective on emotions is a compass, guiding us to understand our feelings better. We reflect on the state of the world, the destructive nature of unaddressed anger, and how to identify the root cause of this overpowering emotion in our journey to manage it effectively. But it's not all gloom and doom. Drawing from our experiences, we underline the power of community, connection, and empathy in grappling with these feelings. As we're amid the holiday season, we encourage you to draw upon these virtues, keep your emotions in check, prioritize self-care, and nurture healthy relationships. We share tools and resources for managing anger, emphasizing mindfulness and physical exercise. So, whether you're feeling a pang of anger or merely intrigued by the concept, join us in this enlightening conversation as we unravel the intricacies of this powerful emotion.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Lindsay and this is Cleveland, and this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, this is new Cleveland. What are we going to be talking about today? Oh, I know, I know, I know I did a fake outfall you guys, I know you guys.
Cleveland Oakes:You used to be me starting the show. I decided today would be in the holidays and everything that's going on, and this being the day after Christmas to talk about something that's really been on my mind for the whole year, which is, thank you the whole year, which is the fuckery that was 2023. And when I talk about the fuckery that was 2023, I mean overall it was a good year. But I feel like when we look at the news and we look at the state of the world and we look at even communication at work and home or online, there's a lot of anger in the world and I feel like people are angry and angry all the time and no one wants to talk. No one knows how to talk to each other or what to talk about, and I feel like we're always fighting and trying to cancel each other out and I just really, the day after Christmas and the holidays, just wanted to spend the time to reflect on that and what it's meant to me and maybe to our audience for the year.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, so when you say we are all, who are you referring to?
Cleveland Oakes:When I say we are all what.
Lindsay Oakes:Angry.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, I mean, we I'm not angry. Oh well, yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:You're never angry.
Cleveland Oakes:But I think us, we as a culture, right that when we look out To the collective, the collective right and I think the discourse is angry, and it's angrier than I've ever seen it before where people are. There was a great episode of Doctor who and I'm a science fiction guy and it was on Disney Plus and it was the episode with Neil Patrick Harris and the doctor comes back from an adventure and London is on fire and people are in the street fighting with each other and the doctor's like what's going on and he finds out that everyone is angry because everyone is convinced that they're right and it's destroying everybody. And even though it was satirical, it was satirical in its nature, it really was talking and that was the Christmas episode. Well, that was the episode before the Christmas episode. The Christmas episode was yesterday. It was, you know what so?
Lindsay Oakes:people are bothered by other people's opinions in the episode.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, oh, that's so funny and it's destroying the world. It is literally the toy maker who is the villain. Neil Patrick Harris has realized that the one thing that will destroy humans than anything else is their anger and their willingness to just be right.
Lindsay Oakes:They're there, need to be right all the time, and I think I actually don't really watch much TV, and I might have been reading a book when you were watching that episode, because I do remember looking up and saying is that doogie howser?
Cleveland Oakes:Yes.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh yeah, he's just guest starring on this episode and I went back to my book. But let's talk about anger a little bit, because one thing that I always say is I can be upset about things, but I never tell you I'm angry.
Cleveland Oakes:Do you notice that? Yeah, I have noticed that. I've noticed that, like you can be passionate, but definitely you don't hold on to anger and you don't hold on to it, and I think that's important, but go ahead.
Lindsay Oakes:Because I don't think that anger is the real emotion that people feel. I think that anger is like a protective reflex or a cover for something else, and there's always something beyond it or behind it, and that's why I never say I'm angry.
Cleveland Oakes:But why do you think so many people in the world today, like you see it when we drive down the street right, or we live in New York City and you see these interactions where a simple bump, where someone bumping into someone else, leads to them being stabbed or getting pushed on train tracks, and so, even though you don't express anger and I know that I can get angry, I don't like being angry, but I know that I can get angry why do you think, what do you think is going on in the world that so many other people are out of control with their anger? Like, how have you?
Lindsay Oakes:learned Because I don't think people are in touch with their actual emotions and how they feel about things, and I think that anger becomes the result of not expressing emotions and pushing everything down and then, when it comes up, it erupts into something else.
Lindsay Oakes:For myself, and I will say there probably was a time in my life I'm sure there was that I was angry about things. But I actually think that there's a different way to label emotions. I don't really think people are angry. I think that they are feel disrespected, unsupported, unheard, sad, whatever the other thousands of emotions are, and one day we should actually read a book that I have here by Brene Brown about emotions and the differences in different kinds of emotions, because it's very interesting. But I do not ever say that I'm angry. When I communicate with you, if I'm upset about something, I'll often tell you I feel disrespected, I feel unheard, I don't feel supported, right, I feel sad, but I never, ever say I feel angry. But I think that it's a very easy emotion for people to access, because then they don't have to look any deeper at what's really triggering them or bothering them.
Cleveland Oakes:So how would you sit down? So, since you don't feel anger, how would you sit down and help someone who does? Let's say, I'm a client that comes down and I come down and I'm like you know what, lindsey, I come home and I'm just so frustrated with my husband and my kids and no one understands me, and I'm frustrated with my boss at work and I'm just really angry all the time. How would you help that person?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I help them to look back over patterns in their lives and identify what it is that they're feeling. I did this last week with a client who was really angry. She's caring for an aging and ill parent. When we dug a little deeper she said she was angry. But then when we dug a little bit deeper she just felt kind of this resentment and sadness and she felt that she was alone. So in the end she ended up saying, wow, that's actually what I feel. I'm not angry, I'm just really frustrated that I'm the only one here to take care of her and I'm really resentful that I had to put my life on hold and give up the things that I was doing to do this. So the anger I feel becomes a cover for something else. It's like the bouncer in a club it kind of protects you from getting in.
Cleveland Oakes:And I think what you just said here is a really good suggestion for folks, which it sounds like you're suggesting mindfulness and self-awareness, which is something that we talk about every week. If you feel that kind of passion and heat coming on, what would you suggest?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I am a big fan of mindfulness and breath work, so I always say stop and don't react. But that is actually one of the hardest things for most of my clients to do, because most people that feel angry aren't able to access those deeper emotions and so they erupt and I love you dearly. But you usually have two modes fine and angry. Oh, yeah, yeah, so you do erupt, so can you relate to that in any way?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah. Well, what I do is I'm a big. There are things that You're a big, giant teddy bear. Well, I'm a big giant teddy bear, I'm also a big nerd, and so there are some topics I talk about which are the Bible, sex and Marvel comics and DC comics. Those are the four things.
Lindsay Oakes:But you also push your emotions down and you don't like people to see you emotional. Yes, and part of that is probably from your upbringing and how you were raised, but you push a lot of things down and then when it comes up, woo, we should all get out of your way.
Cleveland Oakes:What I was getting ready to say when I made that offhand comment about Marvel, comic Sex, dc and the Bible is that I'm kind of like the Incredible Hulk and I have my friend that we went out to dinner with the other day. I'm not going to say his name because he's probably listening to the show. We have similar personalities, we're both congenial. But don't make me angry because I'm like David Banner from the Incredible Hulk TV series, because you're not going to like me when I'm angry. Yes, I said David Banner because for the CBS show he was David, not Bruce Banner, because the execs back then thought Bruce was not a strong name. But I digress. But I am like that right when you push me, don't make me angry. You push, you know, and so, because I know what pushes my buttons, I try to walk away from the stuff that makes me angry Right, but what should you do instead?
Cleveland Oakes:I don't know. Tell me, tell the audience you have to dig deeper and see what it is that's causing that yes.
Lindsay Oakes:Because I really think that people become angry when they lack a feeling of emotional safety. Yes, do you agree with that?
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, yes, and one of the things that I have that I can think of is empathy and understand. I think people automatically get caught up in their point of view and their righteousness. And it brings me to this idea of one of the things that I see that I see has caused a lot of division in the world today is social media and online communication, because it puts us in these echo chambers where people just feel that they can say anything, and they can say anything and get away with saying anything. Mike Tyson once famously said on his podcast you know, what the internet has messed up is because it lets people not realize that they need to get some people need some other fuckers need to get punched in the face. And that's what Mike Tyson says is that the internet has set up something that people can just say and do whatever they want without the repercussions. And I feel like that social media piece has led for a lot of folks to work up this anger and this resentment and they don't know what to do with it.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, I think you were telling me earlier that there's a list of things that cause people to become angry, so why don't you share some of those? Yeah?
Cleveland Oakes:So some of the things that I have that I put together were social media online communication. We definitely see it in the world today political and social divisions, economic stress, information overload, mental health issues, cultural shifts and one of the things that we were just talking about and I wanted to let's drill down on this piece for a second is lack of community and connection. How do you think that?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't know. Listening to you read that makes me feel like am I just oblivious or avoiding all of these things?
Cleveland Oakes:Well, maybe you are avoiding all that. I think well, because you don't well see. So here's the thing about you, what I love and appreciate about you. I'll say hey, did you hear about that meteor that hit Japan like two weeks ago? And you're like what? It wasn't the amazing race. So what I like about you is the reason why I think you manage yourself is that you avoid a lot of these things, whereas as me, as somebody who's out in the world and the minute I come in sometimes work at 7.30 in the morning people want to talk about Donald Trump and DeSantis and the economy.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you work in the media, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And that. So I do think for a lot of people that these are things that bother them. But I want to ask you specifically it's something that you can talk about is community and connection. How do you think that plays into anger? How do you think folks can come back in this holiday season?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't think people are connected, and I think that that's the problem. We're so connected to the social media and to the media and to the TV shows and all of these ways that people are living that are completely unrealistic and fake. Yes, media is so fake. Social media is horrible, right? I mean, just think in the past couple of years, if the media outlets didn't make such a big deal of COVID, do you think that the communities would have such a fear over that?
Cleveland Oakes:I think it would be a different. I think it would have been a different right.
Lindsay Oakes:I think there was a messaging in where not anti-vaxxers nor conspiracy, no no, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that media makes it gives people this level of anxiety and stress that we wouldn't otherwise have. Because if you watch the news on any given day, please tell me how much good news you see. I cannot tell you the last time I watched the news or read a newspaper. I do not follow anything that's going on in the news and the social media thing sure, I scroll, I read it, I will comment on it to you and I will actually often say to you isn't this funny? This person was just complaining about this very thing and now they're posting about it.
Lindsay Oakes:Just how wonderful that part of their life is. It's just that there's just such a lack of awareness and a lack of connection with ourselves and with others. And I think that's where all of this comes up, especially at this time of year, because we're really vulnerable at this time of year. We're going out to parties and spending time with family and we talked about it in our last episode that family and the people that are supposed to love us the most are the ones that also happen to limit us the most and don't believe in us the most and want to hold us back the most.
Cleveland Oakes:And we often see that, right, and I've been a therapist for a short time now You've been a little longer than me but one of the things that we always encounter this time of year are people that are Thanksgiving. It's Christmas and people are, even though this is supposed to be a time of peace and joy. People are more on edge this time of year than usual, right, and so how?
Lindsay Oakes:Because there's so many expectations of them. I think one of the best things that we've started doing at the holidays is just getting on an airplane and going away, because there's no expectations and even the kids now nobody's looking for gifts, nobody's looking for anything else. We go away, we have an experience, we get a couple of little gifts for everybody else, but we just enjoy each other's company. I think that you and I both also have really good, healthy boundaries with people, so I would say that people don't really expect us to conform to anything, would you?
Cleveland Oakes:agree. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. One of the things that I know why you like the Caribbean and when I think about anger and when I think about all this conflict and this that we have in society today, is you go to someplace like the Caribbean and I was actually talking to somebody about it the other day and it's just not there. And I'm not saying to people there, don't get angry and they don't fight, but you go there and the pace of life is just so different.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think right, and you hit the nail on the head with that. And really one place that I love and I am very, very clear about that is Tortola, and I love to go to the British Virgin Islands because there's a lack of connection to the real world, to media and social media.
Cleveland Oakes:I want to flip that and then I'm going to let you continue what you said. It's not a lack of connection to the real.
Lindsay Oakes:I think they're more connected to the real world and that they have they're more connected to themselves and to each other and they're not connected to all of the devices and all of the brainwashing that's out there that's a better way to say it.
Lindsay Oakes:And so when you go there and you go any night of the week, that you go to sit at a bar and listen to music and have a drink, not only are you there with tourists, but you're there with the local people. You've got the doctors sitting next to the garbage men sitting next to the postal worker and there's no judgment about how they should be or who's better than who, and there's no real clear difference between the classes of people. But all of the people are happy and they're really content and full of joy with their lives. And that's why I like to go to those kinds of places, because you can take these people with these multi-million dollar houses on a cliff that they're probably renting out for $500,000 for the season and they can sit next to the garbage man on the island and everything is cool. And it's almost like people go there and they can leave their identity behind because they don't have to be anything more than they really are at their core.
Cleveland Oakes:And it sounds like right there from what you're saying two suggestions that you could make to somebody who's dealing with anger or dealing with frustration.
Lindsay Oakes:Move to the islands no.
Cleveland Oakes:But as well, yeah, move to the islands, or put into practice some of the things that you just talked about, which is the mindful listening, right when you go to Barbados, you go to the Caribbean, the British Virgin Islands there's just level of nobody's judging you I actually was talking to somebody the other day about all the culture wars that we're having here in the United States and you go someplace that's quiet and it doesn't just have to be the Caribbean, it's someplace simpler and the folks are just focused on living. They're not focused on these issues and, because it's communities, they listen to each other and they relax.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and just to go back a little bit on what you're saying is, when I went to pick up the middle one from college for Thanksgiving, I spent a few days in Pennsylvania he's in Lancaster, so it's rural, but then they have the little urban city area and there were all of these protests going on with all of the young students in the area.
Lindsay Oakes:And then I came home and I drive around for work and I listen to a lot of podcasts and I listen to a lot of spiritual talks and I was listening to Tara Brock talk about all of this conflict that's going on now between Israel and Gaza and how angry people are. And do you know? There's actually I'm going to divert for a minute but there's actually a professor at I think it's Harvard who teaches a whole class on happiness. So I don't know if you know this, but it's very interesting and people focus so much of their energy and become so angry about that, but what they're not doing is focusing their energy on what's going on right in their very own community. That can be more impactful with their own work.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and so that was the first time I had ever heard that and thought about that. But you can protest here, but in reality it's not really going to do anything there, but focus your energy and your work right on being angry or frustrated or upset for what's going on right in your community that's impacting the community as a whole.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, right, and I think that's what one of the things that I have written here in my notes is lack of community and connection. Right, so we're not saying do not be concerned about wars and the stuff that's going on in places around the world, right?
Lindsay Oakes:but focus your energy on what you can really work on and what you can really kind of work toward fixing. And the thing is, is that, like, it can be done in these other places, right In the Caribbean? You go there and you've always said it right, there's not. You don't feel unsafe. These people are welcoming and kind, and maybe it's because they don't have access to all that we have access to. Right, we go to the Caribbean and we've been to places where you're lucky if the Wi-Fi works well enough.
Lindsay Oakes:We were in Culebra and you're holding the phone up to try and get a signal. Right, the Wi-Fi it's you get. I mean, remember in Tortola the power goes out once a day. The wind blows and you lose the power, but these people are all just happy, right, their island can be completely destroyed by a storm and they all come together and help one another. So what are we doing wrong here in our own communities that we don't have that? And a perfect example is you and I live in a very small community. Yes, it's an urban community, but it's very isolated from the main urban area. Right, draw bridges. Only a couple thousand people live here, yet there's so much conflict over stupid shit.
Cleveland Oakes:Stupid shit.
Lindsay Oakes:Right amongst the people that are living right next door to us and right across the street and three blocks away. So it's like people need to get more in touch with their selves, with themselves and figure that out. Right? Why am I so worried about what everyone else is thinking and what everyone else's opinion is? This is something I'm passionate about. Can you tell?
Cleveland Oakes:Well, yeah, yeah, because there's something that you like to say, especially when we see someone driving recklessly down the street or what do I say there being a menace.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, because they don't practice self-care.
Cleveland Oakes:Self-care, self-care. And once again, I think there's reasons Because, as you said when you talked about anger in the beginning, I will go back and agree with you. A lot of times when folks are angry, it's about something else. It is something else that is going on that really made them anger. And then you really have to understand is why am I reacting this way? Why is it that we see these incidents of road rage where somebody shoots someone just because you know like they got too close to their car, right, it's like is that worth going to jail for the rest of your life for?
Lindsay Oakes:Because you couldn't just get out and say, okay, you know what, I'm sorry I did that. People are so angry, but because you know why? Because they have so much unresolved crap beneath the surface. That's why, right, because if everybody was in touch with their emotions and can communicate how they felt about things, there wouldn't be an eruption like that. Right, and that's something that you and I both work on in our relationship. I'm very aware of. Like, even today, I snipped at you and I said you know what? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I was triggered by that.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't like when things don't go my way, when we're recording, right, that's a perfect example and I shut it down, because that's what I do. I shut it down and I'm aware of that. But then we were able to just move past it, right, but it's like when you hold on to things and they build up, and they build up and they build up, right. I had a client last week who said this to me it was our first session and she said I don't have any emotions. And then, as soon as a little tear leaked out, she like oh, mopped it up and that was it.
Cleveland Oakes:Everything was fine. So that goes back to what I have written down here, which is a lack of conflict resolution skills oftentimes leads to problems, and can you speak to that when you talk about that client? And how does that lead to anger?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think people don't know how to resolve conflicts, because when we resolve a conflict, it doesn't mean that we have to side with the other person, right, right. And it doesn't mean we have to say they're right and we're wrong. It can just be like, hey, we can agree to disagree, right. Or like I told you a few weeks ago, right, jack Cornfield says you don't have to convince anyone of their opinion, just say, ok, if someone is wrong and they're 100% wrong, and you know it, who cares? Right? And so you have to figure out. Why is that such a trigger to me that I need to be right, right, is it more important for me to be right or for me to maintain this relationship and just feel peaceful within myself? And that's a big piece of it. And I think actually the big devil for both of us is probably going to be to go on a nice little silent retreat when the kids are at camp next summer.
Cleveland Oakes:I can't wait and for me and, like I said, especially because this topic of anger is so important to me, because I see so many angry people in so many situations I've seen especially when we look at car accidents or even what goes on here in the city are things that if someone would have just taken five seconds and taken a deep breath and would have done a breathing exercise before they went out and did something, that that thing could have gone a completely different way.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely right. It's all in the matter of taking that breath, Because what happens when you're angry is you often regret what you did there, right, right. Do you think there's anybody that goes to jail and is like, oh, I don't regret shooting that guy so I can give up the rest of my life, or I don't regret calling that person terrible names, like once you're angry and you erupt and things come out of your mouth and actions come out. You can't get them back.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, that's right, and I've known folks that have flown off the handle and have known somebody to say man, I went to go punch this dude. In a minute that my fist connected with his face, I felt like instant regret, and so you have to really take a beat and try to think these things through in the heat of the moment. What are some tips that you think would work for folks as you, as a therapist is? What are some things that you go through with your clients to talk about working through anger?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, even at this time of year with family, what I say is you determine what type of relationship we have with them and release the expectations, because if you don't have any expectations of someone, then you don't have to behave a certain way. I know in a big thing, right, and if my dad ever listens to this, right, with my dad I used to have such a tumultuous relationship because he had so many opinions about my life and I would get so upset about it. But when I said to myself he's not going to change, that's who he is, and I set up boundaries, like, ok, we can have a relationship in this way, right, so you set the boundaries for the relationship and that's what you have to do, and that's one way to avoid it. And if the person oversteps those boundaries, then you can decide I'm not going to have a relationship with this person or I'm just going to say, ok, that's who they are.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, for me, one of the tips that I use is I practice forgiveness, especially when we think about this time of year, the holiday season. The Bible says, and the Bible says the measure of forgiveness that you give is what you will receive, and so I do believe in forgiveness. Now, I don't believe in forgetting, so there's this different right.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but you could forgive people right because that's compassion and empathy, but it doesn't mean you need to continue a toxic relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:That is yes.
Lindsay Oakes:But if you carry that with you then that just becomes anger right and it just sits there and it bubbles up and you get frustrated, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the things that I like and I want to make that distinction right that you can forgive, but you do not have to carry on a toxic relationship anymore. One of my favorite movies is Captain America, civil War, and this movie is several years old and so I'm going to do a little bit of a spoiler here. At the end of the movie, tony and Steve, captain America and Iron man have a falling out that they were like yo, you, my boy, but I don't fuck with you, no more, right? And so sometimes that happens. It's not like they had this continued feud or they had this, and then, fortunately, the Avengers get back together in the next movie. They put their feelings aside, but at times and I like what you said is sometimes you just get to a point hey, you know what, I forgive you, but I don't have space in my life for you at this moment.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and it doesn't mean that I don't have room to love you or I don't have compassion for you, but it's like I acknowledge that you are not ready to look at your own stuff. So be it Right. And that's where that active listening comes in, and just holding space for people to have the experiences that they have, because Everybody has to come around to their feelings at their own time. I can't make you change. You can't come to me and say, lindsay, I don't like this. You need to do that, because then I'm going to just be more annoyed. Right, but we have to look at that and let people have their own journey and experience their own journey.
Cleveland Oakes:And to your point, lindsay, I think that goes back to mindful listening, right, and having conversations, because it helps. Mindful listening and empathy help because for me and I just described it like this a little earlier is that sometimes I think of anger in, like the, all these wars and all the terrible wars and all the terrible things that are happening around the world today are like people trying to force other people to do things their way and so to see it their way. To see it their way, and if you got to use physical violence, think about it right. If you have to use physical violence to make someone see things your way and you're both reasonable people then perhaps you've crossed the line. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Definitely, and you have to respect people's boundaries and you have to also understand that that person could be 100% wrong, but who cares? Why is it so important for you to be right? And I know someone like that. And it's super frustrating, right, because it's what do I tell you all the time? Oh, she's texting me today. I'm not even responding because it's annoying. I don't need anyone to convince me of anything and I don't need to convince anyone of anything else. Right, and we strayed a little bit because we started to talk about this time of year and feeling anger. Right, and this is where anger comes from. But being around family can be so triggering at this time of year.
Cleveland Oakes:And so how would you suggest for folks like that? And I know a lot of clients come in and I At least your expectations. Yeah, and I have scenarios, like multiple scenarios, of folks this time of year like, oh man, fudge, I got to deal with the folks and so how would you, you know, like, specifically help somebody deal with that right now?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, go in and deal with the folks, but release the expectations you have of them and don't worry about trying to convince them of anything else. Why not just go and have a good time? Change the subject. Certain subjects don't need to be talked about, right, and you should know that very well because you're married to me, yes, and you know there's two things I never talk about Politics and religion.
Cleveland Oakes:That's right and I love to talk about both, because I like to stir the pot. I know you do. You do love to stir the pot.
Lindsay Oakes:But again, that's just that part of me that avoids, you know, all of the media and the news coverage and the social media and I don't, I just I don't like because I guess it bothers me, it's a trigger for me when people get so activated in their opinions.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but that's once again. You know, like you used to say, like to say, and we talk about the Caribbean a lot, and you know, one of my favorite more say songs is like has a lyric that says, back in the days when we were frightfully poor, I just loved you more. And there's this idea that when life is simpler, you know that things are easier. Right, and when we look at a lot of celebrities and we look at celebrity, but life is hard because people make it hard. Yes, and that's what I was going to say. Right, because you look at the only celebrities that have millions of billions of dollars and they talk to it about colleagues all the time, and they are miserable, they're angry, they are upset, they're upset.
Lindsay Oakes:They're doing all the same stuff that you and I do, that we don't have as much money, and they're going on social media and they're making grants and whatnot, and it just seems like they're not mindful and they're not practicing mindfulness and they're letting their emotions get the best of it, but I think, that goes back to what I said on our last episode, which is you have to come from a place of everybody wins, like I can have my success, but other people can win too, yeah, right, and then that's where there's that equality, because if somebody is happy being the garbage man or the postal worker who cares, like, why do you care so much? Right, my, I remember and I said this before my parents were so adamant, when my sister was dating, about what kind of person she should date and who could provide for her. And it's like look at my first marriage. Sure, I mean, I could still be married and probably have some big house and a ton of money, but I was miserable. I was miserable.
Cleveland Oakes:I almost spit my wine out for a second.
Lindsay Oakes:I know because I was thinking about what you always say. Right, but the thing is, is that you could stay in a situation and have all those riches? But are you really rich? Yes, and is and is our material things and money what makes you rich? No, but like peace of mind and happiness and finding joy and not having expectations of other makes you very rich.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, one of the things that I always say is hold on a second.
Cleveland Oakes:Let me just find it as I like to talk about the seven fruitages of the Spirit from the Bible as we wrap up, and it'd be just to bring it back to this time of year and the holiday season and what it's all about.
Cleveland Oakes:The fruit of the Spirit is a biblical term that originates from the Christian New Testament and specifically from Galatians 5, 22, 23. And I think this is a fitting place to end off on as we, as we talk about the holiday season, and just bring it back to to what the seven fruits of the Spirit are. They are love, not the well, not just the seven fruits of the Spirit, but what the fruits of the Spirit are. They are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. These are all things that the Bible says, in addition to many other holy texts, that people should manifest to control their anger. Right, and when we think about this time of year and what this time of year is supposed to be about, it is supposed to be about love, it is supposed to be about joy, it is supposed to be about peace and patience.
Lindsay Oakes:I agree 100%, and we will be experiencing all of those things. And I told you what I want to do on Christmas. I want to wake up, I want to drink my coffee outside, I want to take a very long bike ride and then I want to sit on an umbrella, under an umbrella, on a beach, until it's time to go to my mom and dad's house, and that's how I'm spending Christmas, and it will be very joyful and very peaceful.
Cleveland Oakes:Now, before we wrap, I just do want to give just some caveats, because I know we started off giving anger a bad rap, but is there ever a period that anger can be beneficial for you in your life? Like, are there things that you can use anger for?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, maybe it can be like a check engine light for you, right A shit. I really have to look at myself and see why I'm reacting like this, and I have to change the way that I behave with other people, because it's impacting them in a way that's hurtful or disrespectful and it's not making me feel good. I know that I used to react that way, so I can't say I never felt anger, but I just remember that I one day thought like once something comes out, it can't come back in, and then that was for me a really reflective moment of I really need to kind of monitor what comes in and out. The thing is so, yes, it becomes that check engine light for you, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And I like what you said there right. For me, healthy anger has motivated, for me to change and for me to make change when I look out. One of the reasons why we started this podcast is because we saw a need for folks that needed to change, and so we could have been angry and we could have just been like, oh, I'm going to go behind my keyboard and say a whole bunch of other things, I'm going to just, but no, we decided to go out and motivate, take the energy of our energy, of the things that we were not happy about, and do what Barack Obama said and be the people that we're waiting for. So that is one of the good things about anger. It also helps you set boundaries and, at times when you need to defend yourself, that is what anger is good for. So not saying that anger is always bad, but it is unmanaged anger. That is that is.
Lindsay Oakes:Maybe it's a good way to get you to have some forward motion yes, right, and to reflect on yourself and to make a positive change. Right, and to get the know the devil that you don't know. Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And as we, as we wrap up, uh, I want to list a couple of things. If you're somebody who's dealing with anger or dealing uh with, uh, with anger issues and, and, and realize it at number one would definitely we both suggest go out, uh, go out and get some help. Uh, go out and go see someone. Um, there are some sources for anger, for anger management. So, if you're dealing with anger or anger management and need some resources, there are books, uh, online courses, workshops, this therapy and counseling, um. But let's say, in regards to book, there are titles like anger taming a powerful emotion by Gary Chapman and the anger trap by Les Carter that offer practical advice. Um, and both of these books are are are widely recommended. If you're looking for an online course and dealing with anger, there is a Udemy Coursera and even there are local community centers that you can probably find in your area that will help you with anger management.
Lindsay Oakes:But also practice mindfulness, practice meditation, and there's so many free resources online for those things and I know people say that, oh well, when I meditate or when I try to practice mindfulness, all these thoughts come in my head, but really that's just an indication of oh, this is some stuff that I have to resolve. Right, and I will say, because I am now taking that training under um Jack cornfield and Tara Brock, who are very, very well known in the area of mindfulness and I'm doing that meditation, mindfulness teacher mentorship program and they have a ton of free resources online, including a 40 day free mindfulness program where they send you an email every day and it's about five to 10 minutes of your day of just learning to be present. But they also have a ton of YouTube videos and she also has a podcast and it's. You know, people always frown upon that stuff and think it's hokey and weird, but I have to say that, like when you can learn to stop and think and feel, your life changes immensely.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, um, I think too, along with that is physical exercise is very important I find sometimes and I for myself and for clients when I'm feeling really stressed and aggravated. And one of the things I love about work now that's made my day different is that we have a gym at work and so I can actually oh, I thought it was going to be that because you're going to quit, no, no no, no, no, no, no.
Cleveland Oakes:I love my job, I love my job, I love all my job. Yeah, I love all my job, I love that job.
Lindsay Oakes:So what are you going to do in two years when I'm in the Caribbean for three, four months?
Cleveland Oakes:I'm going to be with you with my new job because, as a you know, because I, I I throw my hat into the ring and into a couple of things I never do.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, you know, when I say I love my job and are there days that frustrate me, there, are there people that sometimes frustrate me. Yes, right, but I also know that there are times that I frustrate people and I have a realistic expectation of of how I'm perceived, and and and and, and and and then how others perceive me and maybe how I'm interacting with folks. But, once again, my, my approach to it now is mindfulness and meditation, and I always go back to when there's a conflict at work or if I have a sharp disagreement with somebody, it's always think about what? What did I do to contribute to that? Right, you know, because we have this thing as humans that are, that are called mirror neurons, and that if somebody reacts to you angrily, then your automatic response is to be angry back. You're going to reflect that back and it takes a little bit of mindfulness to take an argument that could escalate and and you and you be the one to take control and back it down and not go on on autopilot.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I would agree, and I think it's just you know learning to manage your emotions within yourself, and then you care less about what other people say, you're less activated and you're not triggered.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think what's something that you like to say, like I give zero fucks, or the less fucks I give, the happier I am.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:I always say, yeah, that's something that I give, like, I don't get angry about things because if I don't have to be unless it's something that's important to me or something that is like a real, that is a real like injustice Other than that, you know, I think, I think about it. I think about it. I think about how it leads into, how it plays into my life. Is it something I need to get upset about? Do I really need to go on the internet and spend 15 minutes or an hour like ranting on Twitter or on Facebook or fighting with strangers, or can I be living in real life and enjoying my real life?
Cleveland Oakes:Right, as we close, one of the things I want to say when you think about folks in the Caribbean, what makes the Caribbean, in the islands, and and if you ever travel to places like Fiji and Malaysia, or even poor places or places that are not I don't want to say poor, but not quote unquote in air quotes as it as as joyous, as those folks aren't as angry, because they are living life. And because they are living life and because they are doing the things that they need to do, they're in touch with nature, they're in touch with their families. They're in touch with society. They can go outside and go let the sun shine on your skin. Is that they are a lot less pissed off and angry than a lot of us here? In the quote, unquote civilized civilized.
Lindsay Oakes:one more thing Last year we went to Barbados. Let me tell you about Rico. I can guarantee you Rico, who rents the beach chairs, is a very happy man. He does not seem to be looking for anything more than sitting under a palm tree eating his jerk food, drinking his rum punch and renting his beach chairs every day. That man was as happy and as congenial as can be and I said to you when I got home from that lovely vacation I want to be like Rico, right, because that man has no stress and he's happy. Yeah, he loves his daughter, he brought his daughter to the beach, he's got his wife, his mom, and he's happy, right. So it's like, want for nothing more and just be happy with what you have.
Cleveland Oakes:And I can't say it any better than that this has been another episode of the devil. You don't know, lindsay, and I wish you love, nothing but love, joy, peace and happiness in 2024.
Lindsay Oakes:And we'll see you after vacation.
Cleveland Oakes:See you in the new year.