As we wade through the tides of judgment and rush to conclusions, the recent public scrutiny of Jonathan Majors brings to light the pressing need for patience and forgiveness in our culture. My co-host Cleveland and I offer a candid reflection on this, intertwined with personal battles against disappointment and the pursuit of work-life balance. Grappling with the emotional intricacies of guilt and shame, this episode traverses the landscape of personal growth, self-forgiveness, and societal expectations. Join us in this heartfelt discussion and discover how letting go can elevate your spirit and heal the world around you.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
As we wade through the tides of judgment and rush to conclusions, the recent public scrutiny of Jonathan Majors brings to light the pressing need for patience and forgiveness in our culture. My co-host Cleveland and I offer a candid reflection on this, intertwined with personal battles against disappointment and the pursuit of work-life balance. Grappling with the emotional intricacies of guilt and shame, this episode traverses the landscape of personal growth, self-forgiveness, and societal expectations. Join us in this heartfelt discussion and discover how letting go can elevate your spirit and heal the world around you.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Lindsay and this is Cleveland. And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, Cleveland. What are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk about forgiveness. There are a couple of things that happened in the news recently that I wanted to touch on. So this, this, and it's the holiday season, so I wanted to talk about forgiveness. But before I get into that topic, you know I got a lot to say. Let's let's just jump into our usual questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what was your devil of the week?
Speaker 2:Oh, my devil of the week was probably this topic that we're talking about, forgiveness, which was something that happened recently in the news in New York that really it was hard for me to let go, and so you know I want to. I'll talk about that a little bit more, but I would say letting go was was was my devil of the week, where I just kept on. It was something that happened, disappointed me and I just kind of kept revisiting it over and over again and then I was like you know, let me let it go, it's not going to benefit. So I would say my devil of the week was letting go of letting go of disappointment.
Speaker 1:Very good. Very good For me it was unplugging completely for work, because I am really bad at that. I still actually have quite a bit of work to do, but everybody knows I'm on vacation and so I have not been checking emails, checking texts, and I've just not been responding and I'm doing things on my own pace. So but so since we came down here to Naples, florida, which we love, what has been something really good that you've eaten this week?
Speaker 2:Well, so I do want to give an apology to for the audio this week, because we are traveling and I called myself packing all of our gear and I left the mic stands at home, so we are holding the mics in our hand and so there might be a little bit of a dip in the audio. But, that being the case, I would say someplace that I ate this week which was amazing was I love curry, which is down here in Naples, was a nice Indian spot that you found where they cook the food from scratch and what I love. It's one of those places and you only see this. The only other place I saw this was in Guadalupe, where you have all these impatient Americans which are like we prepare. This is not a fast food restaurant.
Speaker 1:It says that there.
Speaker 2:As soon as you walk in, it says this is not a fast food restaurant. Yes, and so it takes time to make your meal from scratch, but I would say I had the spinach.
Speaker 1:I forget, like spinach and yellow lentil doll or something.
Speaker 2:Yes, spinach doll, spinach doll, and that was. That was delicious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I had a vegan korma, which was awesome. It was just loaded up with vegetables. That's actually something that's a challenge, for you is going somewhere and not being in a hurry. So over the past several years, I feel like you're a little less stressed when you go to dinner and it takes a little while.
Speaker 2:I always. I always have an agenda when I go up, but that's part of being from New York and New Yorker and always being busy is, yes, it is very difficult. It was interesting. We went out to the Mercado down here a couple of nights ago with your folks and the gentleman at the valet was talking about how impatient people are these days. We just, like you know, I said this one gentleman, he's like there's a line, there's like 20 people online and there's this one gentleman he's 80 years old and the guy's like tapping his feet and, you know, shifting around all, and it's like sir, do you have a hot date that you're going to? And the joke I wanted to make is I was like hey, you know, your funeral, your funeral is 15 minutes away. You can wait, but that is, that is one of the things I enjoy about being on vacation, even, you know, is this ability to relax and unwind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've actually been doing a lot of relaxing. We took a nice walk through the nature preserve yesterday. We're being able to sit outside. The pool is really cold, but we've been sitting outside and reading and relaxing and just talking to each other and it's been really nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, going to take a bike ride, probably later on today and go see the folks and just just just continue to hang out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's get into it Right. So what is forgiveness and what made you want to talk about this so much this week?
Speaker 2:So this is our second. Just just for transparency, this is our second go at starting this episode, because when I first started it, I just got so passionate on this topic that I just went off to the races and so I'll talk to the races now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to go, I'm going to go off to the races now, right, so, so, kind of what got me on this topic is what happened recently in New York with John up, with the actor, jonathan majors, who a lot of the articles were celebrating it, calling it grand opening, grand closing. Now I will say this that domestic Violence is a serious crime and if you are someone who is in an abusive relationship, either physically or emotionally, verbally abusive, you need help and we, you know you really need to reconsider and get out of that situation. So so I do want to say that, right, I'm not weighing in on the actual event. The actual event. What I'm weighing in on is this idea of you make a mistake and everybody wants to cancel you.
Speaker 2:I mean, here it is, this guy got convicted of a misdemeanor crime and immediately, immediately, despite you know the fact that it was a misdemeanor, is like, yep, you lose your job, that's it, you're done, you're finished in Hollywood, kid, and that's it. And it just Ask me, whatever happened, what happened in our culture to forgiveness? Are there things that are unforgivable? Yeah, I would say, what are those? We'll talk about it in this podcast, but don't people deserve sometimes a second chance right, and that's just kind of the question that this is about.
Speaker 1:Do you feel I was thinking this, that the because he's famous and he's a celebrity, that the reaction is different than if it were you or me or the person next door?
Speaker 2:Oh, obviously, if you read any article in Forbes or Vanity or Vanity's Vanity Fair or even the New York Times, everyone said that this is. Even his lawyers are said this is this is definitely because he's a celebrity. This is the kind of event that, nine times out of ten, if it would have happened to me or you, I might not even got arrested. It wouldn't even gone anywhere, right? Which goes to show that there is a disparity in our legal system, that these things are only taken seriously on a certain level. I dare say part of it, too, might even be the color of his skin, right?
Speaker 2:There's a great book by by, by Wes Moore, who is the young, the governor of of Maryland, and he it's the other Westmore and he talks about A gentleman with his same name who had a completely different fate, and they talk about the quality of forgiveness or the quality of second chances in that book. And one of the things that one West says to the other, who is says, who says sometimes a first chance is a last chance, and part of this quality of forgiveness or the lack of forgiveness that we give is don't people deserve sometimes a second chance, depending on the nature of the offense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely agree with you, and I think that forgiveness is not so much about forgiving the other person, but it's also of absolving yourself of any guilt or any suffering that you have at someone else's hands, right, whether you're the offender or the victim. There is a portion of forgiveness that plays into both of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the first thing I want to talk about is, you know, just segueing into that, right, because there's a lot of issues there. Right, there's a lot of issues and it goes, and, like I said, I know the major's case is is much deeper than than than I'm saying, but there's just. I just wish there was this quality If you made a mistake, that let's help you, right, let's help you reform, right, let's help you. Let's not take everything away, but let's help you reform. But I want to start about the importance of self-forgiveness, which is something that you were talking about, well, I also wanted to before that.
Speaker 1:I also want to say that it's also for in regards to forgiveness. I was listening to a podcast and you know we hold on to even these world struggles, right, wars and things like that in other countries. And why are we holding on to those things Like why can't the new generations change and stop that suffering, right? Why do we repeat the patterns over and over again?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so let's talk about the benefits of forgiveness and starting with the beginning, but the benefits of self-forgiveness, right. There are times and I look back upon my own story, life where it's like I can't believe I did that, I can't believe I said that. And there are times even I like to say this, this, this statement that I like to make this. Each of us like to be the hero of our own stories, but sometimes it's important to recognize that you might have been the villain in somebody else's and then how do you let go, how do you forgive yourself of something that you might have done to hurt somebody?
Speaker 1:Well, I had a client. She said to me right, I don't want to give this any of my energy any more, I don't want to come and talk about it in therapy. I don't want to sit here and talk negatively about the offender, but I don't want to hold on to it anymore because I suffered enough with this story. And so you know that was one of the most profound things I think that a client has ever said to me, because most clients you and I know come to therapy and they talk about the same things and they complain about the same things over and over and they like to wear the badge of the victim, right, and instead it's like what would happen if you just let go of that, right, so it's not.
Speaker 1:And when you forgive and you let go of what someone did to you right, it doesn't mean that you're ignoring the truth of the suffering, right, or that you're saying, oh, whatever, this person can go on and keep doing those things, right. But really what you're doing is you are releasing the suffering from yourself, right, and you are finding compassion, and it doesn't mean you have to forgive and forget, but it does free you up, right, because what happens when we hold on to things is that we get stuck in this place of suffering right and so we're basically letting someone control our happiness, right?
Speaker 2:And I think it's important too, because it differentiates. It sounds like you're saying that differentiates between guilt and shame and understanding that there's a difference between guilt, or regretting one's behavior, or shame, which is feeling fundamentally flawed, right? Here's the thing I got a surprise for everybody in the audience. We're all fundamentally flawed, right, and there's this.
Speaker 1:There's we all. We all need to forgive and we all need to get forgiveness. Everybody has done something at one point in their life to upset someone else right or to hurt someone else.
Speaker 2:And here's the interesting thing guilt. Even though we oftentimes want to avoid feeling overly guilty for something, guilt is an important part of it, because guilt for something you did will lead to course correction right, whereas shame. Shame is different than guilt, because shame is like oh, I'm the only person that ever did that, I'm the only person that ever over eight, or I'm the only person that ever over drank, and it's like, it's it just. It leads you further into yourself.
Speaker 1:It harbors those feelings in a bigger way. Right, we can just let go of things. And shame and guilt are very, very low vibration emotions, right, there's some of the lowest things that you can feel and so, right, even if you haven't been victimized in a really traumatic and tragic way, we still everybody has shame, Everybody shame, guilt, fear, right, Because people we talked about this a few weeks ago in another episode people constantly project all of those feelings onto people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One of the things I found especially working with men, and especially of men of color in the community, is this idea that we are supposed to be the best at what we do. Right, we're like Wolverine, wolverine is like hey, bub, I'm the best at what I do. But men especially in a lot of times men of color have this idea that they must be perfectionist. Right, and you see it in culture, right when you go. If we were to go see Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom, we're not going to go see Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom, and you look at somebody like Jason Momoa. What's this idea that they put on men today? That you must be what, and this is the same idea they put on women that you have to be the height of physical yeah, you have to have the perfect body, the hair right.
Speaker 1:I mean, people just loved him in that first movie. I didn't get it. But we all know I like chocolate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, and Matthew McConaughey, which is that?
Speaker 1:white chocolate that's my boyfriend yeah that white chocolate.
Speaker 2:You get the white chocolate past. I do like him, but it's like this idea of avoiding sometimes what happens with us, especially in self forgiveness and issues where we can't forgive ourselves is this idea is like I can't believe I messed up. My own personal mentor in therapists has said to me you know, like I was having a tiger mom moment on myself where it was like it has to be an A and has to be an A plus. And he said to me why does everything have to be an A?
Speaker 1:Right, but that's a pattern that you brought with you from your childhood. Right, because I also strive very similarly to you know make a lucrative income and you know more is better. Right, and so you know you came from an upbringing I think we talked about this in the last episode of oh well, you know we don't go to college. Right, the religion holds you back. This is what you do, and so, in a way and you can tell me if I'm wrong but there's a part of you that's like well, I'm going to show them. Right, because I can be this and that and I can do this and I can go on to great things.
Speaker 1:Or maybe it's the screw them. I'm not going to be in this religion and I'm going to show them what you can be without it, right, and so I imagine there's some part of having to prove yourself right. I mean, I feel like that for myself.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things that you can avoid, especially perfectionism and learning to forgive yourself, is realize hey, you know what? I can't always hit, I'm not going to the reason why people like LeBron James go to when goes the practices because you're going to miss some of those shots. Right, it's good to have a standard, but you have to have realistic expectations, right, and that takes away that aspect of perfectionism that we often put on ourselves that we can't forgive ourselves. Also, self forgiveness improves well-being and productivity, and let's talk about that for a little bit, lindsey.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't even know. It's not even just self-forgiveness, right? I think you have to talk about both sides of it.
Speaker 1:Yes we always have to forgive ourselves and let go of things, but we also have to forgive other people, right, and there's a lot of courage and integrity in being able to do that and to be able to. I'm always envious of people who don't let things bother them, and I feel like I'm working on it, but the heart and mind are trainable, right, so we can learn to not focus on these things and not sit in them and dwell on them and sit in this suffering that we have.
Speaker 2:And that brings us over to our next topic, which is the benefit of forgiving others and understanding, and understanding when to forgive and how to forgive, and I like that you said that, lindsey, because I believe that learning to forgive others gives you peace of mind. I think it was Maya Angelou who once said is letting someone holding a grudge in your heart, is letting someone live there in your heart rent-free?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. Dharma Mitra, my teacher, says love everyone, forgive everyone, everything. And in the Bhagavad Gita, lord Krishna declares forgiveness to be a godly quality, foundational for liberation, and is contrasted with the anger and harshness that characterize the ungodly who stay in bondage. Right, so that's what you're saying. You just become like a prisoner to yourself and other people.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Forgiving others leads to healthier relationships and it leads to improvements of health less anxiety, stress and hostility and fewer depression symptoms.
Speaker 1:And for somebody like myself who has struggled with high blood pressure for many years, in cholesterol I always Not anymore, not anymore because I am vegan, but it does improve overall heart health, right, I think there's a scripture in the Bible that talks about the holding onto emotions like leads to physical illness and letting go is like oh, Right, I have a friend, gary, and when I was growing up we would go on these religious retreats and that's where I met him, through the church, and I'm not religious now, but, like you, you take lessons out of these places and these events in your life, and Gary once said something about disease, or cancer being a high disease of anger. Right, which is kind of what you're talking about right now. You hold onto these things and they manifest within you and then they just grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you think about over the course of your life and I'm sure there are many of you guys in the audience that can think about a coworker you're like, oh dude's gonna die of a stroke, or that guy's gonna have an heart attack, or that relative that you just knew, because every time you saw him they were like, ah, you know, it becomes this endless cycle, like, is it your physiology that has you stressed? Is it your stress that has you? You know, has your physiology messed up? But it really goes to what you're saying is health and peace of mind go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And when you don't hold on to the suffering, you're paying attention to your own well-being.
Speaker 2:So when you do hold on to it, you're just causing yourself more suffering and as somebody who one of what's so funny right, because a lot of what goes on in our society is all these people fighting for social justice, where you have two sides well, you're woke and your social justice warrior. But learning to forgive leads to empathy and understanding, and I think part of what goes wrong in conversations with people today is everyone wants to punch everybody, and I know I said last week that Mike Tyson said that part of the problem with the internet is that you know you can say stuff and not get punched in the face, which is true, but also too, at the same time, everybody does want to punch everybody in the face for having a difference of opinion. So, Lyns, how can empathy and understanding, how does that help? How does being forgiving, being forgiving help play into that?
Speaker 1:I think you're willing to look at the other side of it and say, oh, you know, this person is really struggling, they're suffering, they're going through something, right. And the other part of it, too, is what my breathwork teacher always says is that what other people do, think, say, their actions, their behaviors, that's theirs, and so it's learning to remember in those moments that what other people do belongs to them and that's their own stuff that they have to look at. Yeah, right, anyone could say anything to you, but you just have to remember, oh, that's not mine, right, I can't control that. And the only thing that really is important is what you can control. And you can control your own thoughts, your actions, your behaviors. And I always try to look at people and say, hey, they're really struggling, right. I always play the devil's advocate, right?
Speaker 1:I remember when little miss the queen mom was in school, remember, she was being bullied by our neighbor who kept flipping the desk over of all the girls' books, and I just said to her just pick them up and be nice, be kind. You don't have to be friends with this person, but you know, and I think for her I feel like that's those words were very powerful and she really doesn't have a lot of strife with the other kids in school. She lets things go. The kids, for the most part, our kids are very easygoing, maybe because we are. But it's that when you let other people impact you in a way and we've always talked about this too it's like you start to believe what other people say unless you can say you know what. That's theirs, that is their suffering. They need to figure out why they feel good or why they try to build themselves up by making other people feel bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a difference between passiveism than what you're saying, understanding it doesn't make you weak to forgive people or to have compassion or empathy for people. It doesn't. It just frees you up. Think about people who become so angry. Yeah, right, I think you and I say this all the time driving down the street, people just drive these fast. They're cutting in and out and weaving in and doing all this stuff and it's just like I don't know. You've got two cars in front of me. It's really worth it, right? But that also, that kind of behavior, doesn't come from being content and being happy with yourself, right. There's some kind of suffering that's making you need to get two cars ahead.
Speaker 2:Because what we're not talking about is is is passiveism, is where's you let, where you don't defend yourself. But it goes back to the principle that Gottman talks about in marriage and this also transcends marriage is first seek to understand and then you'll be understood. One of them, one of them I'm a comic book fan and one of, and any of you guys out there who've ever read comic books will know that one of the biggest tropes in comics is when two superheroes first meet each other. They always fight. You know, spider-man and Wolverine meet each other and it's like hey, I don't know who you are, bob, yes, weird, wall crawling guy. And then Spidey makes make a flipping comment and they wind up fighting because they're both heroes. But they just immediately their reaction is look at this costume freak. And they're both freaks and costumes, right, and so sometimes it what will avoid an argument is first let's understand, right, let's understand where this other person is coming from, and then let's try to make our point of view.
Speaker 1:So first seek to understand, then, before you be understood, so you don't even have to understand and I stand by that because I always tell everybody excuse me, still have a little bit of this cold that when you seek to understand everything that everyone does, it's not possible, gotcha and it causes more suffering. But what I say is respect people's choices, respect the patterns. This is what their experiences in life were that brought them here, but you don't have to understand it. Yeah Right, I will never understand the religion that your family is a part of. I will never understand that. Does it work for them? Sure, do I care that they go? No, absolutely not. But I don't seek to understand it. I'm just like you, know what that works for them.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like you're saying that empathy in this case is just you know what.
Speaker 1:Let them rock out, that's for them Well empathy is just being able to look at where someone comes from and really kind of relating to them or feeling for them. I feel for this person because clearly they've had some kind of struggle or trauma in their life, some kind of suffering that's made them be this version of themselves.
Speaker 2:I want to give you an example of something that I've encountered. Let me see if this is what you're saying. In the past, I've worked with folks that have had strong personalities and then I've gone and looked at them like, ah, this guy's short, or maybe this guy was the only person that's a little judgmental, but you know what? But maybe this guy's short, maybe he got picked on, and I'm not saying that, but sometimes you have to look at it from this person's point of view, 100%. And then sometimes I've interacted with somebody and they're coming off of me in a certain type of way and that always makes me think you know, wait, wait, wait. You know, is it me or is it them?
Speaker 2:And I think the important thing about forgiving other people is realizing that when that person is interacting with you, it's not you that they're there. They're having some kind of fucked up, yes, yeah. And and I tell you like this, right, and for folks that are struggling for forgiveness, my first marriage didn't end well. My, you know, my first marriage ended with my first wife being unfaithful to me, but that actually was one of the best goddamn things that ever happened in my life, because it helped me understand that her lack of faithlessness had nothing to do with me and it was all about her. And a lot of times when you're interacting with people like that car flips you off or that guy drives in front of you, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and I've had folks Right.
Speaker 1:This is not me, yeah. And a perfect example is a couple of weeks ago, your ex-wife called and she kept saying to you oh, I know your wife is going to be so upset. And you're like, no, not really. Yeah, right, but isn't it interesting? Because her new husband gets very upset when she interacts, right? So it was a projection of her own stuff onto you. I don't care if she calls you, I don't think that you love her or want to be with her, but I do think you've forgiven her. Yeah, right. And that's where she, you know, for whatever reason, right. She didn't feel supported and loved and she didn't get the attention that she wanted to get or thought that she should get, right. And so then she went out as an adult and she found that from a hundred other men, yeah Right. Which then in turn, really hurt you. But like you always say, now, right, yes, did it hurt, but on the other side of it, you win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't say I don't need to get sued for slander, I wouldn't say a hundred other men, but in the but in, but in, but in, yeah, what she couldn't find, what was in herself. And that's a lot of times what is going wrong with folks. Right and you'll, and, like I said, not to digress too hard, but when someone slides to you as someone cuts you off on the road, you know, like we often says oh, I guess he had a surgery that he had to get to right Is, is is yeah, Somewhere very important that he had to be right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's really important to get your point across. It just be like realize ah, that's that guy's problem.
Speaker 1:No, you don't need to ever get your point across Right.
Speaker 2:Never yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, I always say that you don't ever have to prove a point to anybody. All you just have to say is okay, let them go, who cares? Who cares? I always for every person on the highway that doesn't let me in. When there's a merge, I let like two or three people in, right and it's, but it's you know, I want to people to have the sign, you know, to give the same kindness that they get, and I think that's that's a big struggle, because I do think that there is so much suffering in the world, and that's why I always say meditation and mindfulness, and I talk about it ad nauseam, even with my clients. Right, but the mind and the heart are trainable and you can learn to process things differently and you can learn to be Okay with the state of things and realize that, yes, this is going on around me, but it doesn't mean that I need to be consumed by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and before we close out on this, on this topic, I do just think it's an important that folks Recognize that it is that everyone has a story Right, um, absolutely, and, and that there's and we're gonna talk about, and that our next topic is gonna be situations where forgiveness is not Necessarily beneficial.
Speaker 1:Yes, I did that already. Yes, I've decided that's okay with yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh see, look, you forgave me already. Um, but that everybody has a story. So we're not saying be pacifist, we're not saying you to not stand up for yourself when you are, when you need to, but first try to ascertain what the fuck is going on before you pop off.
Speaker 1:Don't let someone rob you of your happiness and your contentment and your joy because that's really what happens when you don't forgive people. Listen, let everybody do what they're gonna do. You can't change everybody, yeah, but your actions can impact the way that other people behave when you think about being safe.
Speaker 2:There's a self-defense expert that I that I've listened to in the past. That's, hey, the biggest thing that you can do to remain safe is to Is to not start the fight in the first place. And he was like. A lot of times, what you see With people are salting strangers or shooting at each other. It's something that could have gotten let go right. It's something that, hey, you know what. You stepped on my shoe, you cut me off, you bumped into me by accident. Hey, you said something that in like, you know, he's like nine. He was like you may be in a mood to fight and that other person might be in a mood to kill. So he was like. Sometimes it is better just to think about the situation. Is it worth me in? Is it? Is it worth me? A fighting with this person I should have. Just you know what. I don't know what's going on with that individual.
Speaker 1:I'm just let it go right, and I actually would love to bring you on retreat sometime, because when you go to a place where everybody is very compassionate and empathetic and At peace with themselves, to come back into society is like I call it, like the reintegration. It is hard, right, because you come from a place where it's like imagine if everybody lived with such joy and content Right and learn how to just release their suffering in a healthy way, right, right, the world would be such a better place. And I always say Imagine if everyone meditated, the way that I like to get up in the morning and meditate and breathe, and the way that I like to Practice mindfulness in my training. Imagine if everybody in the world did that right. What an impact that would have.
Speaker 2:Right, that's true. So we gave some situations and we gave some advice for forgiving yourself and forgiving others. But here are some scenarios and, lindsay, I'll let you start off, but can you think of a scenario where that forgiving, forgiveness or Un unlike, just unrelenting forgiveness or is just would not be beneficial?
Speaker 1:No, I can't because, again.
Speaker 1:You're then deciding to sit in your suffering and stew over something that's not serving you in any way. Yeah well, here's my client last week said it perfectly she experienced severe sexual trauma when she was a toddler and and she's the one who said I don't want to talk about it anymore. I do not want to give this person any more space in my mind and in my heart, right? And that's not a person who came to therapy to heal from that, right? This person came to therapy, you know, because of other struggles that are ongoing in her life. But to be able to say that is really is really what forgiveness is all about, right, I don't talk to the person, but, like I, I Forgive them. I forgive them and I also forgive myself for holding on to it for so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, part of what, what you know here here are some, some things that you can, what you want to do when you, when you are in the process for giving yourself or forgiving others. If you don't want to reduce your culpability in a matter, right, sometimes self can, forgiveness can be misused.
Speaker 1:I did that because yes.
Speaker 2:So self forgiveness is not. I did that because it's self forgiveness means that you take responsibility for your actions and you take and you make constructive change.
Speaker 1:Accountability goes a long way. That's right. Always say that to you, right? One of the things that is a huge trigger for me is when people are not Accountable for the way that they act or behave.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even though in the second point is, even though we said express empathy for victims, lindsay, does that always mean sometimes, just because you forgive somebody, that that means that the relationship just goes back to how it was?
Speaker 1:No, you don't have to have the relationship with that person at all. Yeah right, but you can decide that and I'm a big, I'm telling my clients that too. You, you have to decide. Do I want a relationship with the person or do I not? And if I do, then I need to relinquish the expectations that I have of the relationship, and I have to understand that this is the way that this person is.
Speaker 2:I think the scenario that you would talk, that you touch touched upon earlier, is is a person might want to. They just want to get rid of that situation in their head. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're ever going to be friends with their abuser, and if their abuser needs to go to jail, then that abuser very damn well should go to jail and serve and serve time and be punished for that wrongdoing. But it means that just because you've forgiven somebody doesn't mean that you forget I've had, you don't have to forgive and forget.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, and my meditation teacher that I'm working with now, jack Cornfield, says just that right, it doesn't mean that we need to condone what happened in the past. It doesn't mean that we forgive and forget, but we have to see the impact that our actions have on ourselves and others. Right, and you have to do what it takes to protect yourself and protect other people that you love. Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.
Speaker 2:Yep, I think that pretty much sums it up. I think that sums it up. So forgiveness is just. If we're going to sum it up, forgiveness is important because you have to forgive yourself at times, at times you have to forgive others and then, at the time, it just frees you from your suffering. It frees you from your suffering. It frees you from your suffering.
Speaker 1:All right, on that note. On that note, we've got some outside sitting to do.
Speaker 2:Outside sitting to do outside sitting and sipping Lenz. Where can the folks get to if they want to get in contact with us or they have some topics they'd like to hear us talk about in 2024?
Speaker 1:Get to know the devil at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:And this has been another episode of the Devil, you Don't Know. If you like what you hear, please rate and review us on iTunes or wherever else you're listening, and subscribe. It's hip-hop and roses to your gut.