Have you ever been in a heated debate over something inconsequential as dish liquid? Cleveland and I sure have, which led us to a profound understanding of the art of letting go in relationships. Please tune in to our heart-to-heart, where we unpack the everyday irritations that build into destructive habits, the importance of picking our battles, and why mastering mindfulness could be your ticket to a calmer, more respectful partnership.
Listen for an episode packed with revelations on personal accountability, constructive communication, and tips on weathering the storm of lifestyle changes while strengthening your relationships.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Have you ever been in a heated debate over something inconsequential as dish liquid? Cleveland and I sure have, which led us to a profound understanding of the art of letting go in relationships. Please tune in to our heart-to-heart, where we unpack the everyday irritations that build into destructive habits, the importance of picking our battles, and why mastering mindfulness could be your ticket to a calmer, more respectful partnership.
Listen for an episode packed with revelations on personal accountability, constructive communication, and tips on weathering the storm of lifestyle changes while strengthening your relationships.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:And this is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil you Don't Know. But first, Lindsay, what are we going to be talking about this week?
Lindsay Oakes:Letting go Moving beyond destructive relationship habits.
Cleveland Oakes:That sounds like a very interesting topic. I think one of the things that when we conceive this episode, we will jump into our normal banter in a second. When we conceive this episode, we were trying to figure out what was the difference between resentment and letting go.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and I said to you I wanted to do an episode about this, because one of the most frustrating things for me as a counselor is meeting with couples who come to therapy thinking that they have a big emergency and it's something really simple, like their partner repeatedly leaves a snack on the counter and won't put it away and I thought, well, it's really not a big deal at all, like there are real problems in relationships and if that's going to be the cause of resentment, right, and an inability to let go in the relationship, then you have to take a little bit of a look at yourself.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it reminds me of a scenario a few years ago where some friends of mine were having an argument over something like as basic as a dish liquid in the home and they couldn't figure out, you know, who was going to get it or what was going to get it. The husband tried to come up with a solution. The wife didn't like it and when we were talking about it later on I was like yo, bruh, that argument was about so much more than dish liquid.
Lindsay Oakes:I always say that to my clients. I'm like it wasn't about the dirty dishes in the sink, and one of the recent things that I've run into is someone who said their husband doesn't pay attention to small details, and I said to them well, neither does mine, but it is what it is.
Cleveland Oakes:Some days I don't know where we are, where we're going and how we're going to get there, but you love me nonetheless.
Lindsay Oakes:I do and I just choose to let those things go because, right, there's, it's. All goes back to the mindfulness that I practice. But, like, if I'm going to pick on you about all those little things, it's going to cause me aggravation just as much as it's going to cause you aggravation. So I may as well just go and put something away or pick up after you and you know honestly I think I say it more out loud I'm sure you pick up a lot of things after me, but you just don't say it. I'm sleeping when you do it. Yeah, I let it go?
Cleveland Oakes:I let it go. But before we continue on this topic, I want to just get back to our usual routine and then we'll go back, which is to talk about our devil of the week and something great that that we ate I can tell you today. Last week, on my last episode, I promised that Lindsay was going to make me this amazing kind of like vegan.
Lindsay Oakes:But I didn't make you the sandwich that I said I was going to make you. This is a completely different one.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, but it was amazing. I don't even know what the name of it was, but it had vegetables. It had this hot maple vinegar, hot maple syrup on it. Go ahead, tell the audience what you made me.
Lindsay Oakes:So you love sandwiches and I love you, so I would like your blood pressure to come down a little so that we can have a long and happy life. Stop stressing me together, but I have made a resolution that we will be going more whole food, plant based, so getting off the processed like toe furky type of sandwiches that you love, so I. Last week we went to the H mark, the Asian grocery store which, by the way, is like a produce heaven for a vegan and I got tons and tons of oyster mushrooms and so I made a batter with some chickpea flour and soy milk and some seasonings and I put them in the wet batter and then I put them in some ground up like oats and breadcrumbs that I made from a whole grain bread. Probably didn't even know.
Lindsay Oakes:I made my own breadcrumbs I'm good like that and I and some nutritional yeast and more herbs, and so I air fried those until they were really crispy, and so the idea is that oyster mushrooms can be like vegan fried chicken. And then I just made a miso mayonnaise for you. I don't like mayonnaise, so I didn't eat it and I made a hot maple like dressing to put over it, so I gave you a sandwich with miso mayonnaise, these air fried really crispy oyster mushrooms, some mixed greens, some sprouts, hot banana peppers and this maple hot sauce mixture I made and I served it for you on like a nice toasted roll.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, eventually, when we get our official website up and running, I think it'll be a great idea, as if you put pictures of these delicious meals that you make, along with the recipes, for our viewers, so for our listeners, so that they can emulate them at home, because it sounds complicated. It was not so easy, so easy.
Lindsay Oakes:So easy so delicious. I also happen to have a really well stocked vegan pantry, which I think is overwhelming for a lot of people. I have probably every type of flour you can have right Garbanzo, whole wheat, rice, quinoa, and probably 10 other types of flowers. And I have every kind of grain that you can imagine, from like millet to farrow to barley, to four or five different kinds of rice is, and so our pantry is well stocked. I have, I think, two or three shelves of herbs right in the in the cabinet, or spices.
Cleveland Oakes:You have so many herbs that I have to, when you, when you can't find something, I have to like get into the cabinet itself physically, like it's almost like an episode of Doctor who in the TARDIS and the cabinet is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside and like dig around and fight past Ergon and and Cayenne and all these other like turmeric and all these other things, but you have a very extensive spice cabinet.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and so I just I, you know, it's very easy for me to find an idea and then roll with it and put my own spin on it, and that was what I did for those sandwiches today. My whole it started for me this morning as saying I know people make fried chicken with oyster mushrooms, but I don't want to fry it because we've really not been eating oil, and so I just did a little research about how I can bread it and crisp it, and we have a really great ninja air fryer. And there was your sandwich.
Cleveland Oakes:Wait, holy shit, wait a minute. So that sandwich was not from a recipe, you just craft, you just sandwich. Alchemy that together.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I just looked at how I can bread it and how I can air fry it to get it as crispy as if you put it in oil, and then I just whipped it up for you and, lucky for you, I have a bunch more. Actually, use the same breading that I use to make crispy cauliflower that you like, and next time you want more. You just throw it back in the air fryer to kind of crisp it up again and you make yourself another sandwich.
Cleveland Oakes:This reminds me of my 50th birthday in the Finger Lakes. What type of sorcery is this? I just knew that was just from a recipe that was amazing for you to have alchemy that together and vented that you are the sandwich wizard which I now.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you love sandwiches, so my goal was to just make you a really yummy sandwich, and I did that.
Cleveland Oakes:I bestowed that on you. What was a challenge for you this week? What was your devil of the week? I had a really bad week at work.
Lindsay Oakes:I didn't help. No, you were okay. Well, no, I did say to you that I just needed you to say you got like mad at me because I had a bad week and you started yelling and I was like. All I wanted you to say was tell me about what happened today.
Cleveland Oakes:I wasn't mad at you that you had a bad week. I kind of had a bad week.
Lindsay Oakes:So why did you yell at me when I called you about it? I was on the way home from that foster care agency where nobody showed up for that damn appointment that I drove all the way down there in the South Bronx at four o'clock in the afternoon as a favor to somebody that I work with who said can you please do this for the office. And then I called you and all I said to you was I'm in a really bad mood and you started yelling at me. I think I was just you did. You started yelling at me and then I hung up on you and I cried on the way home in the car.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, no, no, no, I didn't know all of that, but I think I was just. You know, I it was. I don't even think I yelled, I think it was just a miscommunication.
Lindsay Oakes:No, you yelled at me. You started yelling at me on the phone, but we don't have to get into it here. But no, it's a good. You know you did and I and I actually said to you All I wanted you to say in that moment was like tell me what happened. Yeah, Tell me what happened. But I feel like maybe you thought you did something and so a lot of times you go into that defense mode and so you thought I was mad at you. Yeah, I think I went into high defense.
Cleveland Oakes:It was just the error of comedies, right, I think, one of the things that I liked what Laurie said last week and I'm sorry that you cried, I didn't know.
Lindsay Oakes:It was probably like I didn't leave it, it wasn't even that I had a really bad week and that was like my devil. But it wasn't just that I had a bad week. The whole week I you know, full disclosure I go into some really terrible neighborhoods, really low income neighborhoods. I see a lot of really traumatic and sad things when I do home visits and I just really sometimes the families can be really challenging and I really think it's just kind of a result of their lifestyle and what they've been exposed to. So I don't take it personally, but when it's like one after another you're showing up and people aren't home After they've confirmed that they'll be there, you get to this point where you're like shit. I could have seen five other people who would have been home and now I drove all over creation. I parked in these neighborhoods where parking is not plentiful, and then I don't even get paid, so it's like I'm just joyriding around the Bronx. Yeah, oh, I was so annoyed.
Cleveland Oakes:And I think my devil of the week is related to your devil of the week where I just was having a bad week and I think when you called me on the phone and I do apologize, it wasn't, even if it was just a little tear, it was not my intent to make you cry. I think I was just.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you didn't make me cry, it was just, I think, a result of just going through the day and everything was just piling up and piling up. I went to that one house and the family was at the grocery store and I'm like, but we have an appointment, where are you? Well, you could just wait, and I was waiting in a housing project, so I didn't feel safe. I was really the only white woman standing in this hallway and I think a lot of times people mistake me for being like ACS or someone's going to come and take the kids.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, that's what I thought you were in our first date.
Lindsay Oakes:And so it's frustrating because it's like I didn't feel safe and nothing has ever happened to me. I've only had a couple of times that I've really felt like I was in danger. But it was just, I think, the frustration of it and the lack of respect for time which we'll talk about that in another episode, because I am so triggered when people don't respect my time.
Cleveland Oakes:One question I have for you. At least did they get you something from the supermarket when they came back?
Lindsay Oakes:They didn't even come back with any bags, which was how I knew they were lying and the kid was sleeping in the stroller.
Lindsay Oakes:And there were two. Mom and dad were there and I was very calm and I just said one of you needs to wake up the baby, while the other one gets out the key and opens the door, because now you have pushed my whole day 45 minutes behind. And then that was it. And then they went in the house and started to tool around and do other things and I was like, listen, if we're not doing this now, I'm leaving, I'm leaving. So it's just, you know, it's like, and I think this is going to kind of come down to a little bit of what we're going to be talking about today.
Lindsay Oakes:I was able to let it go in the moment, but then, as the day went on, and then I'm showing up at other people's houses and they're not home when they confirmed and, by the way, still haven't responded to me five days later. And then I had the mom, who I offered her another time after she already blew me off Because she had to run an last minute errand while I was driving to her house in another burrow Wow. Then, when I asked her to reschedule she gets busy around the time that I want to come that was her excuse. Well, now I get busy around the time that you're coming, and now today she's responded and let me know that she freed herself up and I was just like, well, I'm not free now. So you could have been cooperative and flexible five days ago.
Cleveland Oakes:And that's a pet peeve of mine. I'm going to get into my devil of the week in a second because it's related to your devil of the week, which is also related to our topic. But one of my personal heroes and mentors, jordan Harbinger and this is something that I've talked to you about time and we can definitely do a whole episode on time Talks about this idea that people who aren't busy or who don't value their time do not value yours, and that seems like that's something that you are running too frequently and it does seem like something like you might have to build up a lot of resentment and you might have to let go right.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, absolutely, and I'm OK. I have to say that practicing breathing and meditation and mindfulness definitely keeps me at a lower stress and anxiety level, wherein I even recognized when I was in the car after this big blow off at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, when now the traffic back here was about an hour, which was annoying I realized in myself that I really was more just kind of frustrated and kind of felt sad. But I wasn't really mad at these people, I was just like my stress level didn't go up. I was just kind of like this is just really so disrespectful and I think the trigger was like I don't do that to people, Like if I'm going to be somewhere or someone has to be here, I'm home.
Cleveland Oakes:Well as professional folks, right. That's what. That's the whole thing and that's what Jordan talks about is professional people respect each other's time and they realize that it's a commodity, right? Folks that don't appreciate time are probably not professional and probably are not and this is not to shit on anybody but are probably not successful. But I want to move on to my Devil of the Week and then we're going to get into the topic.
Cleveland Oakes:So my Devil of the Week is related to your Devil of the Week and, as I was kind of having a rough week myself here, work's been great but it's just, it's the winter time and it's New York and it's just blah and it's like 20 degrees and we have a house full of pets and sometimes I do not want to be a pet owner. That is the clear truth. But it's got nothing to do with the pets. It's not their fault, it's not my fault, it's not anybody's in this house fault who loves those pets. So I was just having a bad moment because, like the dogs, who I feel sorry for, even though I act frustrated with them, I kind of feel sorry for them because in 20 degree weather it's like they're looking at me, I'm looking at them and I'm like, oh, they just cry.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, like I sit in and cry. I wish you could go outside too, buddy. So I think when we had that little dust up, I was feeling frustrated and blah.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you probably got home and no one had fed the pets or let them out all day. And then you got home from work and you hate coming home and stepping into pet responsibility. I always try to feed them before you get home, because I know that you don't like to. Yes, yes, and that's true, right, like I think we both like the pets better when they can go outside and when we can even take them for a walk because they enjoy it so much, and then when they're inside they're quiet. But our dogs have this obsession with being outside. It is just the craziest thing. They will sit outside all day, every day, and then when you bring them inside they cry. I don't know if it's all the stimulation and excitement that's going on outside, but like it's very hard in the winter which is why we need to move.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, what I've decided to do and this is gone now is a good segue into our topic of letting go is I've just decided to let go If they want to go outside. I read and this is not professional advice I've read when it's under 45 degrees, you can let a dog stay outside for every minute for a degree. So when they go outside, I try to put on a little timer. If it's 20 degrees out and they're like barking and scrapping at the door, I talk to them and because I know dogs speak limited English, because whenever we say walk outside, they're like ah, no, you can't say walk in front of them, yeah they go crazy.
Cleveland Oakes:So I talk to them. I'm like listen, we're going to do this for five to 10 minutes. You're going to go out, I'm going to watch and then you're going to come back in. But then they're like little kids where they just want to go back and forth. But let's get into our topic. So letting go is a concept that refers to the process of releasing attachment to specific thoughts, feelings, memories or desires that negatively impact one's emotional well-being or life experience.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and then what I want to say is, when I was looking up information and we were talking about this, I said to you great relationships, this is friendships, intimate relationships, family relationships begin and end with yourself. What do you think about that?
Cleveland Oakes:I definitely do right, because I think when you are content with yourself, when you are fine with yourself, that you can be content and fine with other people. Because I have a good relationship with myself and I realize that I do fuckery and I do assholery at work. The other day somebody asks me when am I going to get that promotion to be an SVP? I was like, if it's the SVP of assholery and fuckery, please give it to me. But I realize that there are things that I do that need to be forgiven. There are things that I do that need to be let go, and because I want to be forgiven or I want people to accept me, I've learned to let go of small stuff. Period across the line.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, and I think that's what makes our relationship so successful. And when I researched this topic about the biggest complaints or the biggest struggles in relationships and destructive habits, I thought these are not things that you and I have always had we have done these things in the past but I think that we love and respect each other enough that we have decided that things are not really always that big of a deal. So let's get into it. Let's talk about the first destructive habit in a relationship complaining, the unproductive echo.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, so what do you think about that, about complaining, and what is the unproductive echo?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I remember when we met, you told me one of the most things you find most unattractive is complaining.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I remember that. I mean that was from the first months of our relationship. I've never really been much of a complainer. I probably complained more about the job and things. But I was going through a lot of change when we met and constant complaining often arises from a desire for change or, and it doesn't encourage any positive action, because it brings people around you down. Right. You always say, like a Debbie Downer, right, think about that phrase for a moment.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, debbie Downer. I remember SNL many years it was. It was it was a Doug and Debbie Downer and it was like, everywhere they went, this is dog and Debbie Downer. I don't know. I'll watch this.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, yeah, that was like back. That was back when the show was extremely funny, but yeah, but it was, it was a good point, right, and it and it does. It creates a negative environment and places people in a defensive position. If you can imagine when somebody is and it's the same over and it gets tiring, right. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:No, it does get tiring right and it's just not. It's not a constructive way to communicate with somebody, whether it's a friend or a romantic partner or a family member, right, and it actually hinders, like, a positive relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:Tell me about that idea of the unproductive echo. Like, what does that mean to you? I can tell you what that means to me. I think of an echo, I think of going to the Grand Canyon and I'm saying like hello, hello, hello.
Lindsay Oakes:I was just going to say that.
Cleveland Oakes:But then what is the unproductive quality of that echo?
Lindsay Oakes:Because there's no solution. It doesn't. It doesn't resolve anything. It doesn't solve a problem, right? It just keeps going right and it's almost like after a while, I think Sometimes after a while you don't hear things right. Think of it like when you have a TV on in the background and you're doing something, right, you don't. Sometimes you don't even know what's on. Or if you, sometimes you'll talk to me about something and I'm doing something else and you're like almost an unproductive echo right In the background, and then I'll turn around and be like oh my God, were you just telling me?
Lindsay Oakes:like a whole time in its story and I didn't hear a thing you said, right, and it's not usually a complaint, right, but that's what I think about. It's not. It's it's like the inability to really have a healthy communication right and a mutual understanding with somebody. It's just like you're just like like in their ear all the time about things.
Cleveland Oakes:If you ever, if you remember Charlie Brown, remember the adults in Charlie Brown were, like all, unproductive echoes and I remember, I remember that and just remember as a kid being like wow, that is how adults sound to me, right. I remember when my mom would come nag me and like nagging is just this unproductive thing that just creates so much resentment, so much anger. And it leads to the second point that you brought up, which is where that unproductive echo leads into criticism, which is which is far more than feedback. And so how does criticism differ from feedback? And then how does that feed back into that unproductive echo?
Lindsay Oakes:Right? Well, there's a difference between criticizing someone and providing helpful information right, and I think we talked about it last week which is instead of pointing the finger, or a few weeks ago. Instead of the pointing the finger, right, it's being able to tell somebody how you feel and express your emotions and maybe tell the truth, but in a positive and healthy way that doesn't impact the relationship. Because criticizing right, and the third point, blaming which you know we won't get too much into right, they are what I always say to my clients. That's like a finger pointing you're this and you're that and you're doing this and it's your fault. And I did this because and that causes what I call the shame and blame game. So now we have a little disagreement about something and we've started to point a finger and tell somebody how all the things about themselves that they probably don't want to hear and that sometimes shouldn't come out of our mouths, right. And now we've created a whole new problem.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, one of the examples I always use when I sit down with clients is imagine if you got on a plane and halfway through the flight you heard the pilot and the co-pilot in the cockpit going at it. It was like you suck and we should have turned. We should have turned right and dipped this 30,000 to give this miles lower than that. And this is all you hear coming from the cockpit. What will you, lindsay, as a passenger who needs Xanax in the vodka before she gets on every flight?
Cleveland Oakes:think about those two guys in that point.
Lindsay Oakes:You did not take Xanax when I went to Key West.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, you did.
Lindsay Oakes:I had three mimosas in the Delta Sky Lounge, but no, I do actually have a very, very I am very scared of flying it's. But the problem is I love to travel, so I am, but I am terrified of flying.
Cleveland Oakes:So imagine you, terrified of flying. What ends up?
Lindsay Oakes:happening is that you start to doubt yourself. You go into this fear mode, right, you, you know you, just you. You start to believe certain things are going to happen.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, will those two pilots make it to their destination if their finger point and criticize the whole flight?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I mean probably because the air traffic control tower will, you know, will correct them. But what happens is right. When we start to criticize people and I do say this to all of my clients, right, because this is a big CBT thing the more that we start to tell people about themselves, they start to believe that, and that's where low self-esteem and not feeling good about yourself comes from. And then you have all these negative core beliefs that you wouldn't have had if someone didn't sit there and tell you all the things about themselves.
Cleveland Oakes:So would you feel comfortable, more comfortable, as a passenger in that plane?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't want to know what's going on in the cockpit. Ever, okay, ever. I don't, ever want to go on a plane where it's where we're sitting in the airport and they're like there's just some mechanical difficulties, but we'll board in about two hours. I don't, I don't want to know. I would rather not know. Yeah, because for me, it's this fear. Right, this is like one of the greatest fears that I have. There's very few things I'm afraid of, but flying is one.
Cleveland Oakes:So it seems that in order for anything to work and it doesn't have to be a pilot and a co-pilot in a plane, it could be a first mate in the captain that they can be you and me. Yeah, and that we can't work effectively, we can't get to our destination if we are finger pointing.
Lindsay Oakes:Yep, and we used to finger point, right. So, to be straight up, like we used to finger point in our relationship and then we would. We learned how to argue in a better way, right, everybody argues.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, of course.
Lindsay Oakes:But we don't have to criticize and blame and that also goes back to what I said first, which is that great relationships begin and end with yourself Because when you criticize someone and you start blaming someone, it's really kind of a way to not have to take personal accountability for what's going on within yourself.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I want to drill down into that third point, which is the blame piece which you have labeled as evading personal responsibility. One of the things that when I used to work at FedEx, many, many years ago our district manager one of the things that I loved about that woman is that, as a professional, if you went to her and said, well, I did this because, say, oh, I will tell you a perfect example of that.
Lindsay Oakes:In my first marriage I asked my first husband to go to counseling because he had a lot of anger issues right, and I don't have to get into my personal relationships here. The first one he went. He would stay after work and go, and then when the insurance statements started coming in the mail, I realized that he was actually lying to me and never went. Eventually he did go. At that point it was probably a little too late and then he wanted to go to couples therapy. And we went to couples therapy one session, got a babysitter for the kids, went to couples therapy and every time I said something his response was well, I did that because I did that. Because I did that because I left couples therapy. I shut down after that because I thought I'm not saying anything else because everything is being blamed on me here.
Lindsay Oakes:And the thing is we're both responsible for things right In our relationship now. We're both responsible for things and we, when we come through on the other side and resolve something, we both take a personal accountability for it. So we left there. I didn't talk to him the whole night. I spent the whole next day crying with my friends after a yoga class and I thought to myself you should never leave an interaction like that, feeling worse than when you went in. And I did that because it's like, oh well, you're so shitty that you made me do it, kind of thing.
Lindsay Oakes:And I thought, wow, and really what it was was I wasn't feeling supported and I wasn't feeling heard and I was a stay-at-home mom at the time. But the specific examples where I think that the kids were very sick and I was sick as well and my ex-husband was like couldn't stay home, and then Ben had a horrible reaction to an antibiotic and we had moved and I didn't know anybody in the new neighborhood and had to leave Flaila with a stranger down the street who was home at the time and rush him off to have an emergency treatment for an allergy, and I thought, wow, I have no support here. No support. The only support I had was financial support and that just wasn't enough for me. But I did that because I did that because was eventually was completely what destroyed the relationship, because there was no personal accountability. I had to work and I'm really sorry that you felt that way and I couldn't get there in time. That would have gone a lot further than well.
Cleveland Oakes:I did that because I remember a couple of years ago I had a scenario in which I was talking to a couple that were having some marital issues and it was clear to me, as a marriage counselor, you were not supposed to have an opinion, but it was clear to me who the problem was.
Cleveland Oakes:And I remember the gentleman in this case, everything that his wife said while I stole her check because, well, I did not pick up the kids, because I cheated on her, because I'm like, bro, stop, like, if we are not going to deal with the issue of your personal growth, first of all, you need personal therapy. But if you are going to constantly blame the other person and take no accountability for your behavior, then there's no reason to be here. There is absolutely no reason to be here. And so, part of blaming, yes, you may have done something because, but did you have to take that particular action, right? Like I may be mad about what you did, but did I have to burn? I? Well, I burned down the house because I was mad at you, right?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and it's just about being able to say right, like it comes back to yourself, right, and that's how the interesting thing right now about how you and I argue is that we say Debate fiercely. I say to you like this is how I feel when this happens, and you look at me and you'll say this is how I feel when this happens. Right, and I think right, when you are of, like you're a rational person and you want your relationship to work, you have to take into accountability your partner's feelings. Well, I did that and it made him feel this way. So like I need to do something different next time, because that's not working.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, what's been successful for me in my career, in my friendships and in my marriage, especially for me, is accepting that I can be the SVP of ass, hollery and fuckery. Right that perhaps I did do some dumb shit that pissed you off or made my boss upset or made a colleague or made a friend upset and and I'll just, and I will accept the blame and I will say, hey, that was my mistake.
Cleveland Oakes:You know where, many years ago, on a program at church, when I was used to go to church, somebody made the good point. Where there's no word, the fire goes out. And I feel like blaming, blaming, blaming, blaming is throwing wood into the fire. Was. If you tell me, hey, ba ba ba, this happened, you made me feel this way. I'm not. I'm going to think about it, I'm going to internalize it and I'm not going to justify my actions and go back and blame. One of the original blamers, if you believe in the Bible and Bible is Adam. When God asked him why did you eat that apple, he said, instead of saying like, hey, I loved my wife, hey, I didn't want to die, he was like God, this woman you gave me made me eat the apple. And God didn't take that excuse. Yeah, because blaming is fruitless, it goes nowhere.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and let's move on to the next one, right, which is nagging the repetitive barrier.
Cleveland Oakes:I am Gene's son. I nag, you don't nag, not anymore.
Lindsay Oakes:I used to you don't nag, but tell me, like, what do you think about that? Why would you call nagging a repetitive barrier?
Cleveland Oakes:Do you know what the Chinese water torture is, where it's like that one drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, and I'm going to do it a hundred more times to drive the audience crazy.
Cleveland Oakes:But that is what nagging is. Nagging is you are talking to me about something that I cannot change, something I changed already, something that you don't want to change or something I don't want to change. Right, and that's what it's. You know, nagging involves persistently urging a partner to do something that they do not want to do. It is different from asking your partner to stop drinking or to stop committing a crime. It is like, just like you always leave your socks here, you always leave your socks here.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I have right. Here's an example. Right, I have a client who is very successful and his wife is constantly telling him to do other things you should do this, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. And he's like but I'm very financially stable right now, so it's not really a good time for me to take a big risk, right, and so it's. When there's so much nagging like that, right, it can, it can. It creates a feeling of frustration and it feels like your partner is trying to control you and there's really no cooperation. And he said to his partner hey, you know what, maybe you should take the risk because right now you're not working, but since I have the stability of a career with medical benefits and a very good income, then perhaps we should focus on you taking the risk now, right, and then maybe later I can change things up.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, One of the things that I often sit find when I sit down with a couple and this can definitely be a topic for a whole nother episode is a lot of folks don't even understand how families work. They don't they. They didn't come from a fully functioning family, so they don't know what a mother's supposed to look like. They don't know what a father's supposed to look like. Society has taught them that toxic, that all masculinity is toxic and anyone who's who believes in being a woman or a traditional role of a woman is soft and weak. And we have all these weird ideas in our head, which leads to weird ways to communicate, which leads to and since we do not know how to communicate, because unfortunately a lot of families no longer believe in traditional gender roles or traditional roles in a family, or even know how to cooperate in a family it leads to poor communication, which leads to nagging.
Cleveland Oakes:And this habit, no matter in what kind of relationship you are. If you're in a friendship, where you nag. If you're in a homosexual relationship where you nag. If you're in a heterosexual relationship where you nag. If you're in a polyamorous relationship where you nag, you are pushing all the motherfuckers in your life, all the fuck away from you, right? Because it makes people feel controlled and it makes people feel angry. And instead of nagging in any of these circumstances, no matter what you are, you need to foster a spirit of cooperation in your relationship and in your family.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, because you need to be on each other's side. Right, I mean, that's like a really important in a relationship, there has to be that mutual respect and that mutual support which then brings us into the next, which is worse than nagging, I think, is threatening, right, like controlling someone through fear. Right, you know you need to do this or or I'm going to leave, or you need to do this, or I'm not. Right. And even in friendships, a perfect example was you were my friend first, right, which I've dealt with in a specific like triangular situation. You have to do this because you knew me first, so you shouldn't have gone because I wasn't free. Right, and I'm just like, oh, right, and I have to say that the and we've talked about that, I think relationship before on the show for me is this you know, controlling the friendship dynamic. And now what's actually happened for me is I've taken a step back from both of those people and I've thought you know what, if they want to go out, they can coordinate and then come to us last.
Cleveland Oakes:You're big on boundaries, so I want to ask you a question how is threatening different from setting a boundary?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, threatening is, like you know, is exactly right. I think I was telling you. The other day, I had a client that was like, if you don't marry, like the wife said to him, if you don't marry me, I'm going to go and marry someone else. Um, okay, right, so go ahead. Because the threatening really is just. It's about that. There's no mutual respect, there's no cooperation. It's like this is what I'm going to say and this is what you're going to do, and if you don't like it, then I'm going to go and find someone else who is going to do it. Um, you know, boundaries are just being really clear in what the expectations are. What will I do in this situation? What will I not do?
Lindsay Oakes:And in the situation with my friends, when they started doing that it was, I remember I called the one who had the big problem and I just called her out on it and I said, hey, this is what I heard. What's up? Stop acting like this, or tell me what's going on. Perfect, yeah, and that was exactly what I said. And you know what? We cleared the air.
Lindsay Oakes:But then I saw that person do the same thing then in another triangulated relationship with another friend. And you know, what's interesting is that we've, both because of that and because of taking that trip this summer, stepped back from those relationships, and you know it really, because it also puts such a different dynamic into the relationship. You don't enjoy hanging out with the people as much when you see their behavior like that. It's a turnoff, it's gross. Like I should be able to go out with this one or that one, or you or her, and on any night of the week, and it doesn't really matter. If you want to go out with somebody and I can't come, I don't care. Please go, yeah, yeah, please go. Like, please, please go.
Cleveland Oakes:You know, in many of my conversations with both clients and friends who have had relationship difficulties, there's this difference of this understanding of an ultimatum and a boundary setting. Right, and I just want to co-sign on what you said there. Right A threat the primary intent of a threat is to control or manipulate the other's person's behavior. It is about exerting power over someone to get what you want, often out of fear, frustration or desire to dominate, whereas setting a boundary, on the other hand, the intent of setting a boundary is to communicate one's needs, limits and expectations in a relationship.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, that's what I said. Right, these are the expectations that I have for the relationship. If you cannot meet them, then we are not going to be friends. Yes, because I cannot follow a set of rules that you have put into place for me to engage with you.
Cleveland Oakes:Right and the way. A boundary to co-sign on what you just said. The way a boundary differs from a threat is that a boundary is about self-care. It is about respect and it is about ensuring your personal values and limits are understood and respected. It is communicated in a healthy way. It is. I would prefer for you not to. If you want to remain friends, I would prefer you not to do that. It is different than well. If you want to be my friend, you just need to do what I need you to do, and that's it.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, which kind of leads into the next point. Right, punishing oh, you didn't do this because, right and punishing is like a really destructive consequence. Right, and when we think of punishment, we probably often think about raising kids. Right, kids are punished. I know, growing up I was punished for my behavior. Oh, you can't go out, you need to go in your room, you need to do this. Right and punishment is humiliating. Right, there's like you withhold from someone based on what you want to control. What do you think of that?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, I totally agree with that Controlling. I want you to love me, not because you fear me, not because you fear the consequence of me. I want you to love me because of me. And where punishment comes is it creates where sheer punishment comes. It creates a relationship that is based out of fear and not one that is out of mutual spec, admiration or love.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and I think as we get older right, and we look at upbringing right, and you and I have both said this recently as our parents age, right, we look at the dynamics of the relationships. Growing up and in my home there was a lot of punishment and a lot of control and now it's just, like you know, it damages the relationship, right, it causes a lot of resentment. You want to retaliate against someone. I'm really I consider myself to be pretty good at letting go of certain things. I think I said to you a few weeks ago, like sometimes you just have to decide, like you know what, okay, I'm just like I'm not that person anymore, right, and I'm not going to hold on to these things and I'm just going to let it go, right. But you know, in a romantic relationship, like you know, punishing can look like withholding of, like sex or affection, and it's just, it's just kind of gross.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and relationships. I think of punishment as revenge. Should there be punishment for certain things in life?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, 100% Punishment or a consequence for the behavior. Right, because punishment is humiliating and controlling. But here's the consequence, right, and here's the perfect example of a consequence for your behavior. Right. Went to that woman's house and she had to run errands Talk to her Wednesday and she was too busy at the time. I was going to come next week and now, all of a sudden, today, the last message I got from her was Wednesday and I said if you can be flexible, hey, let me know. And now today she said oh sure you can come. And I said oh well, unfortunately you didn't respond to me since Wednesday and now my schedule is full. We'll have to wait until the week of the 29th. Right, that's not a punishment, that's a consequence for not responding and not being responsible, you know, and accountable in the situation.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, when I, when I encounter friends or couples and I've had, you know I won't the the the innocent children may name was, but I've had couples and you know some of my ex-in-laws the way they deal with interactions with each other. They give each other the silent treatment, they withhold sex, they punish each other. I'm not going to associate. Well, you never withhold sex.
Cleveland Oakes:We're going to have to just believe that I just paint. I just fainted dead away in my chair and nothing makes me faint that way. Okay, I never. Yes, yes. That is something that also confused my ex-wife also. She was like I thought we were mad at each other and I'm like nah, we're good For now, for now, for now, for 30 minutes. Give me 30 minutes and I'm going to be angry again, but not an angry person.
Cleveland Oakes:Not an angry person. Oh yeah, it really made me laugh. Okay, let me gather my, let me gather my thoughts. I guess I will keep that in the show because it was very funny. But but punishing, but punishing, you hurt yourself, right? And so in a relationship when you punish, two adults should not punish each other. There is no intent or no reason where I come home and I'm going to be like I'm going to punish Lindsay, unless it's because I'm going to punish Lindsay, oh my God. But there is no reason for me to come home and punish you, right, because you are grown, you are a grown ass, full adult, as my, as my daughter Skyler would say. You are a full adult woman. You should know what you're doing. I should not have to come and punish you. To me, when I think about punishment and the relationship, it's about revenge, which makes me think about the retaliation, right, that's what I said earlier.
Lindsay Oakes:It's like, oh, you know you're going to do this, all right. Well, I'm going to do this in return. And how often do we do that with kids, right, and I, I remember, with the youngest right, who's who's enjoying so much, her only child, them right now that she went through a phase and it was, oh my God, it was hellacious over here, right, and if she didn't get her way in the throwing and the things. And I remember her therapist said to me oh well, you know, I can't keep seeing her because she's not opening up to me, and I was like, how about we change course? And like get to the bottom of why she's so angry? Because she thought she was punishing us. Do you remember that?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, I believe, and this is why punishment doesn't work for me. I was talking to my barber the other day about some stuff that was going on in his family and I was like dude, I am a believer in mutually assured destruction, right. Mutually assured death and destruction On consequences, right?
Lindsay Oakes:And what ended up happening was when I said to her therapist well, why don't you shift your sessions away from what she's not willing to talk about right now and into, like, the like behaviors that we're seeing at home, right, the anger, the throwing things, the slamming, the breaking things and I have to say that might have been a year ago, right, yeah, we have not had those situations since, right, so it's like let's stop punishing people, right? Because I think, also, she felt like therapy was a punishment for her behavior. Would you agree? Oh, I 100% agree.
Cleveland Oakes:And so, when we were able to look at it, and say, hey, let's try this approach instead.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't think that we have had an issue like that since, do you agree? We have not, and things here have been really, really, you know, really peaceful and really great. And you know a little bit of a little bit of bickering when the truck driver comes home from college, but the aspiring truck driver comes home from college, but you know we have to also then kind of move in. Let's move into our last point right Before we go real quick.
Cleveland Oakes:I want to go back to this idea of mad. Right? Mutually insured death and destruction is this idea, and it's what would be like a nuclear war. When you punish in a relationship, it leads to mutually assured death and destruction where neither one of you are going to be prosperous. Right? This mad is a doctrine or principle that if two opposing sides use nuclear weapons in a conflict which is in a marriage, in a family, it's punishment. It's going to lead to the complete annihilation of both the attacker and the defender. It is predicated on the possession of this case of nuclear weapons, and by two parties, or, in this case, in a marriage or in a relationship to people who are holding on to, who are not letting go, to people. I've got a point to prove right.
Lindsay Oakes:I mean, that's me without my oldest, right, and you sometimes get like that with one of yours, but, like with my oldest, that's definitely a thing and that's why I had to just kind of relinquish control and say, as hard as this is, as a parent, I need to let him make the mistakes and I need to let him figure it out and I hope, I hope I don't lose him and I hope something doesn't happen to him. But, like, we cannot control and threaten people into doing things and you know, I think it's helpful to have a support group as well, that I have right. But it's so true, we cannot threaten and control people into doing things right, because I feel, as soon as he enters the house, right, my anxiety level goes so high, right, and you can say that you'll agree, right, yeah, yeah yeah, and I definitely think that and I see it happen.
Cleveland Oakes:I see that quality of me For me. I understand right. I understand what mad means. I understand that if we go down this road, you're going to burn, I'm going to burn, and for me that's sometimes. I'm fine with that consequence. But if that is not a consequence that you want for your relationship or for your marriage, you really need to think about what you are doing, why you're doing. It. Is what I'm going to say, going to alienate my husband or my wife or my domestic partner or my lover or my friend or my friend, or is it going to burn us both? If it is, then maybe you don't need to say it right, maybe you don't need to do or say it.
Lindsay Oakes:I always tell you do I need to say it? Do I need to say it now and does it need to be said by me? Because most likely if you notice something in someone, other people notice it too and you don't need to be the one who says it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think punishment and relationships differs. And then we can definitely move on to our last point. But I think punishment and a relationship differs from setting a boundary in a relationship or consequences, because punishment and a relationship punishes not only you, but it not only punishes the other person, but it punishes yourself through the actions right when you deny it, when you create an unhospitable environment in your home, you are creating an unhospitable environment for yourself, you're creating resentment to your partner, for yourself, and you may be getting your way now incrementally through punishment, but you are also building up barriers between yourself and the people that you are punishing, Right, and remember here's a perfect example.
Lindsay Oakes:And then we're going to move on. Remember when the young one here was getting all the detentions because she was wearing the Doc Martens with the Catholic school uniform and then throwing on some you know, graphic sweatshirt that wasn't the school v-neck, and she kept getting the detentions. And it got to the point where it was so inconvenient for me and I felt like it was disrespectful of my time because I would either have to cancel clients in the afternoon to go and pick up right or bring at 7 30 in the morning to just serve this detention. And then I'm sitting in all this traffic and then I can't start my day until later. And I finally I said this is what's going to happen.
Lindsay Oakes:The school gave you the Metro card. I understand it is very inconvenient for you to take the three public buses to get to your school, which probably takes 90 minutes, even though the school is a 10 minute drive away. Right, and that if you are going to get the detentions because you are not following the rules and you're going to have to pull out your Metro card and get yourself there. On public transportation, here is the MTA website and you can put the address in from home to the address in its school and you can figure that out and do you know what happened.
Cleveland Oakes:The whole behavior changed.
Lindsay Oakes:Have we had a detention? Now we have not no detention, and that was it. It wasn't. There was no screaming and arguing and threatening, it was just a simple. Here's the website. You figure out how to get there, but I can no longer be, you know, sacrificing my time and my job so that I can bring you because you made a decision not to follow the rules. So with that, let's move on to our final point, which is bribing, or rewarding to control. So what do you think about bribing?
Cleveland Oakes:I think that's the opposite end of punishing right and punishing is I'm going to control this relationship by hurting you or by abusing you? Then bribing is the opposite I'm going to control this relationship by giving you everything you want. It's like an ultimatum right, yeah, but it's the opposite, in that it doesn't really teach the person, in my opinion, and I don't know if it's accurate, but it doesn't really teach the person responsibility, it doesn't teach them rules.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, it's like manipulation right, yes. And it's not. It's not like you know. I think the opposite of bribing is probably like a healthy negotiation. What do?
Cleveland Oakes:you think? I definitely think a healthy negotiation is the opposite. Because it's like if? Because when you bribe all the time, that's still going to build up resentment on your part. Because it's like why, why am I always, why am I always the one giving, why am I always the one giving in and I'm the? And the other person is going to walk all over you. What do you say? What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, absolutely Right, Because when you do that, then it's like you're just being taken control of, right. There's like nothing that's genuine about it. It's very transactional. You're going to do this and then this is what I'm going to do.
Lindsay Oakes:And if you don't, then this is what I'm going to do, and we're big fans of 90 day fiance, but I can think I can think I get so mad when you say that I get so mad at myself for watching the show because I feel like I watch it and then I get so pissed off because these people are getting paid and so if I watch it then they make money. But then I watch it and I'm blown away how people can actually behave this way in a transactional way.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, it is.
Lindsay Oakes:I'm going to get a green card from you and so, and so here it is. Right, it's often the one person here in America is not as good looking and doesn't have as much to offer, right. And so they go somewhere else and get someone that they think is so hot to trot, right. And then they're like, oh, I'm going to bring them back here and they're going to have to stay with me because I'm going to do this for them, right. And it's just like oh, it makes me so mad that we even watch that and I tell you that every time because it's like you watch it and it's a train wreck. But then at the same time, you're like I'm giving these people fucking money every time I turn the shit on.
Cleveland Oakes:And I want to think about two, two relationships in there that are the bribing and the punishing Jasmine and Gino, angela and Michael. When I think about Jasmine and Gino, we think about Gino's behavior. Like Jasmine, yeah, I want to marry you. Here's a ring, here's what is he constantly doing in that relationship that Gino is doing wrong.
Lindsay Oakes:He doesn't have any boundaries with her. I mean she talks all the time about. I mean it's like, bleeped out on the shelf, I'm going to go and fuck Dane because he's better than you. And then, and then Gino cries and buys her a new ring and then they make up, right, or takes her to Miami, like in last night's episode, and then they make up and it's like, okay, so you're going to behave poorly, okay, but I am going to manipulate you into staying with me because I have absolutely no self-esteem, right, and I don't think that I have any self-worth, and so this is the only way that I'm going to be able to keep you. As if I behave this way.
Lindsay Oakes:But most times what happens is these people get the green card and then they break up, right, and that's why it goes back to the first thing I said in this episode right, that great relationships begin and end with yourself, right, your own self-esteem, your own self-worth, you know the things that you want, what your needs are and your own happiness. And if you are happy and content with yourself and you're okay with the choices that you've made, thank you. Then you are okay and you are ready to be in a relationship, right, I mean, I know that I have people I don't even have friendships with because the complaining is so much that I'm like I just can't do this it's annoying Right.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't want to listen to people complain Now if that's different than if a friend comes to you and says like I'm going through something, right. I just, you know, I'm feeling this way and I wanted to call you and ask if it's normal, right, because I feel like I get that a lot as a therapist, right, I know you can't be my therapist, but, like, can you tell me about this? This is how I'm feeling. That's different, right. That's different than like the relationship is contingent upon these factors.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think we all have those friends that you see, it's like oh my God, here comes blah, blah, blah with their load of problems and then no solutions.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, we have to be able to offer somebody something and they have to be able to offer us something in return. Right and I said it in our last episode when we had Laurie on right that, like good friends, really good cherished friends, are few and far between right, and so you have to have your ride or die people right, and like she's one of them and Denise, my other friend, Denise, who I was in Key West with she's one of them and the three of us happen to have a really awesome, you know relationship altogether. But it's just like one of us can go with a complaint and crying and like I think when we are having issues with the one here, remember I called Denise and we had to cancel plans and she's like that's okay, I'm bringing wine, I'm on the way, Don't worry, I've done this before. Right, and so it's like good friends.
Lindsay Oakes:I felt like she had a siren on when she came to wine mom wine mom wine, but you know, really good friends, compliment each other right, and, like I think Laurie said yesterday, right, they turn your traumas and tragedies into humor right, and they make you feel that you know what.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, you're going to go through this stuff, but we can come out together on the other side right, and that's romantic relationships, friendships, whatever it may be. Right, we have to surround ourselves by the people who make us a better person, right, and who really support us and help us and help us to see that we can come out on the other side right, and that's the very thing that made me want to become a therapist. It's like I have been in the trenches, right, I have added up groceries on a calculator, I was a single mom, I have juggled everything. But now here it is right, years and years later, where it's like I've found a really healthy, loving relationship. Right, I love you in case I didn't tell you today, but I you know, and I've come out on the other side and I've climbed out of the trenches and I've seen like you can come from those dark times and make it happen.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and on that note, I think this is a good spot to end it. I just want to wrap up and I'll let Lindsay have the last word. In this episode, we explored several destructive relationships have it that can hinder the growth and health of our connections. Recognizing these patterns is the first step toward change. In our next episode I don't know what we're going to talk about, but, Lindsay, I'm going to let this show close with you. Any thoughts about this episode and what we're going to talk about next?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't know what we're going to talk about next, because we usually are fly by the CDR pants, like you know. We'll see a client or we'll read something and we'll be like, hey, we should talk about that, right. But I think that you know, we'll figure that out. In the meantime, we got to get up a little bit of a website or a blog so that you can post all the wonderful things I cook for you, because you know, in a dream world for me, everybody would be vegan and also post all my fashion tips.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh my.
Lindsay Oakes:God, this man has way too many clothes and let's just talk about I'm going to close right after this. But, oh my God, how annoyed am I. I am trying so hard to lose weight and I lose like two pounds. And this dude comes back from freaking Florida and I'm like you look so skinny and he's like, oh, I haven't lost any weight. And then he comes home from work, oh, I went to the gym and I got on the skin with us 10 pounds without even trying. And I'm like, god damn it, so frustrating. It's so frustrating. And like you do, you look fantastic and you're really embracing this whole food, plant based lifestyle that we've, you know, taken on this year, and I love you very much and you do you look amazing. And you know, and I think also for everybody, right is just like have compassion for each other and communicate, set boundaries in a healthy way, but like don't shut people out, don't punish them, don't criticize them, don't play the blame and shame game, because that's a really ugly and unattractive game.
Cleveland Oakes:So, on that note, this has been another episode of the devil you don't know. Email us at get to know the devil at gmailcom and rate and review us on iTunes or Spotify or whatever platform you're listening to us on.