Have you ever felt like walking between being a supportive partner and sounding like a broken record? Cleveland and I unpack this problem, sprinkling in our two cents on the importance of affirmation, validation, and the power of backing your significant other without tipping into the nagging zone. Through laughter and earnest reflection, we also address the pressing matter of building trust and extending encouragement, sharing stories of personal compromises and the growth that stems from navigating change with your partner.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Have you ever felt like walking between being a supportive partner and sounding like a broken record? Cleveland and I unpack this problem, sprinkling in our two cents on the importance of affirmation, validation, and the power of backing your significant other without tipping into the nagging zone. Through laughter and earnest reflection, we also address the pressing matter of building trust and extending encouragement, sharing stories of personal compromises and the growth that stems from navigating change with your partner.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland, this is Lindsay, and this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, contrary to last week's episode about destructive relationship patterns, this week I thought we could talk about healthy relationship habits.
Cleveland Oakes:Ah, an equal and opposite reaction. I like that. I like going in the different direction. But first, before we get on that topic, tell me something interesting. You ate this week.
Lindsay Oakes:All right. So I went to Archie's Tap and Table on City Island my favorite place to go because Alex makes awesome vegan food. I went twice, once with a friend when you were working and then you were envious, so we went together. One night I had an awesome fresh kale salad with homemade pickled cherries Never even heard of those Roasted beets, pomegranate seeds, roasted squash and some grilled I think, king oyster mushrooms on top, and then the other night he made me a pasta and then he made these eggplant rolls for me like really thinly sliced eggplant filled with a fresh veggie and caper filling. It was really good. What did you eat this week?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, Alex always knocks it out the box, and so I went with Thursday night and I had something similar and that salad that you described. He gave it to me also that next night. Awesome, but even more interesting than that was this morning. You made some blueberry pancakes with a fruit bowl, and while that may sound plain to a lot of you folks, it was good for me because I'm working on both lowering my cholesterol and my blood pressure, and that's something that I normally wouldn't have eaten in the past. I think I was being a New Yorker. I'm a bacon, egg and cheese guy.
Lindsay Oakes:You haven't been a bacon, egg and cheese guy in a long time I have not been but that was, I wouldn't let you eat that.
Cleveland Oakes:No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, but that wasn't it. That was a really good meal. That those blueberry pancakes in the fruit bowl, what was it? What was your devil of?
Lindsay Oakes:the week. My devil of the week is something that's plaguing me for a while now, and it's just finding balance. I have had a huge influx of new clients lately. I'm working still as a contractor for the Department of Health and doing all that developmental testing, and I'm struggling from to kind of close the gap between where I am and where I want to be, which is what this show is about, and it's been really hard for me because I'm good at saying no to things, but when it comes to work and money, I like money and I often take on more work than I should and that's my own fault and something I have to work on and so my big struggle is finding balance right, how to turn that off so that I can actually do the things that I want to do cooking, going to the gym, you know, even just getting out and moving a little bit more, spending time with myself, spending time with you. So that's something that I've been working on. How about you?
Cleveland Oakes:For me, my devil of the week was just dealing with burnout. Like you, I was very busy. I'm in grad school, I see clients, I work full time and it kind of came out at work a little bit this week and some emails that I sent to some folks that were assertive, but as I was pulled to the side and was like my guy, that was kind of mean. That email you sent was kind of mean, and so for me it was being balanced and also being balanced and just learning to put some things aside and dealing with burnout. What was interesting in class on Saturday is the professor ended it with the most important thing about being counselors and being therapists is taking care of yourself, and so what I said I was going to do is drink some vino, which we got to over the course of the weekend, and now I am nice and balanced and relaxed and ready to record.
Lindsay Oakes:All right, well, let's just jump right into it. So last week we had talked about and I think a few times a book that I had been reading that the therapy practice sent in the mail. Sometimes they send some books that they get from publishers or different authors. The book is called the Secrets of Happy Couples and we had talked a while ago about how most couples are actually living in these mediocre marriages. And last week we talked about destructive relationship habits. And when I started to read more, it referenced another book called the Eight Lessons for a Happier Marriage, by the Glassers, and I thought this is a really good way to shift in counseling with my clients, because a lot of times my clients come and they have a whole list of complaints about their partner, right, and they are nagging or they're producing and directing, as my friend Agnes would say. But I think it would be more helpful to follow up on that with some actual healthier habits, right, instead of so much of a focus on the negative, being a little bit more positive with clients.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, so it sounds like this is a part two, basically, of last week's episode, where this is the sequel.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and it's a comparison and a contrast right to what some of those destructive relationship patterns were. So number one is listening, and listening is so much more than just hearing what your partner has to say. What do you think about that?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, one of many years ago, and I'm a talker, right, if you guys listen to the show, I can chat and I can go on some long wind episodes. I might be doing one right now but I'm bummed. But active listening to me means that you actively listen when a person talks. Say, for instance, I was going to say many years ago when I was working at a job, somebody came to me and said Cleveland, god gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason, and that's because it's more important to listen. So active listening goes beyond simply hearing words. It involves fully concentrating on what is coming out of the other person's mouth, understanding and responding by remembering what's being said, which is the opposite of a way. A lot of couples and conflict talk, which is where they're not communicating, but each one is just talk over each other.
Lindsay Oakes:Exactly Right and I agree. So, and it's really just understanding where your partner is coming from. You may not agree with what they're saying, but really hearing them out, processing what they have to say and then understanding them right. This is where my partner is coming from. This is what my partner wants.
Cleveland Oakes:And what I sounds like you're talking about there is that couples need to express empathy and understanding in each other to have effective communication.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, and something that we'll talk about a little bit more later is I always say it's Understanding is not always as important as respect, which we'll talk about later. But you know, it's just being able to say, like, my partner has a different point of view than me, right? Or my partner does things a little differently than I would, and you and I do things very differently. Very so I think it's just you know, being able to realize that and not be so opinionated is really important.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think that too. What do you think about nonverbal communication? There's a lot of times that I come in and I'll see you and you'll have my. You're back to me and instantly I will be like are you okay, are you all right? What? Why is that important? Or is it important in a relationship to in your point of view?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and, on the contrary, sometimes one of us will say something and the other one will give a look right. So don't you remember when you were younger and you did something and your mother would give you that look and you just knew the look right? I think nonverbal communication is definitely very important, but one thing I noticed with you is that if I'm quiet which I'm not a very talkative person like you are if I'm too quiet, you always think something is wrong with me. Yesterday we went out to our friend's house and I was quiet and I was having a great time and I would contribute to the conversation, but not as much as you would.
Cleveland Oakes:But I'm sorry you made me laugh, but I'm gonna go ahead.
Lindsay Oakes:And you repeatedly asked me if I was okay. And then, like, when we got in the car, you were like, are you okay tonight? And I was like I'm just fine, I'm relaxed, I'm hanging out, I'm having a good time. So, you know, sometimes you don't always have to talk, but you can just be there and be listening to what the other people have to say and contribute. Right, as Dharma says, speak when what you have to say is of greater value than the silence.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I like that right. But I do think it's important in couples to view, to check out nonverbal communication, to make sure that you know that you're doing cues right. What I do find during the course of the night okay, maybe last night I was being a little too proactive but I do think it's important as a husband or as a partner to make sure that you are watching your partners verbal, your nonverbal cues make sure that something I said didn't make you uncomfortable or make the person uncomfortable. So for me that is important. You know effective listeners pay attention to body language, eye contact, tone of voice and other nonverbal cues to understand what is being fully conveyed.
Lindsay Oakes:And I don't mind when you do that, it doesn't bother me in any way, but it's just funny to me because I'm like you've known me for so long. I'm just not a very big talker, so but I agree, I, and I think it's actually nice to check in on your partner right, and to make sure they're okay, because then that's another way of supporting them right, which is what we're going to get into. Next, number two supporting, standing by your partner, lending them support when needed, whether or not you agree with what they're doing. What do you think?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, I think that's very important. I think it's even more important than what some people do is. I told you so. One of the worst things that you can do when your partner makes a decision is to be like I told you, so I knew that wasn't going to work, and I think is, so it is very important to be supportive.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and people do need to make mistakes. So you know, if you don't support your partner, ultimately they may not take a chance. Right, and if it doesn't work you can always do something different. But the support piece is very important and we've supported each other through a lot of things. Right, you lost your dad when we were together. We've gone through, you know, struggles with the kids together and we just support each other and often we wouldn't resolve a problem in the same way. But we don't step on each other's toes with the way that you or I would resolve.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think good support goes back to a piece that we, that you talked about, in communication, which is being patient and open-minded and also clarifying what it is that your partner wants right, and then going back and using a skill that we use in therapy, which is summarizing what, what, what your partner just said. I do think that is an important way that you can be supportive to a partner and a time of need.
Lindsay Oakes:One thing that you and I both do in our relationship which is really positive is that sometimes we'll ask each other do you want me to say something, or do you just want me to listen? Right, and it's you know. We can then ask for the support that we need. I might want your opinion, you might want my opinion, or you might just want a vent, or I might just want a vent, right, and so that also goes in with support, right? Whatever it is that you need from me, I'm going to give to you, and one and another thing that's important is affirmation and validation.
Cleveland Oakes:A lot of times in couples that we've seen or couples that I know, for instance, that I've seen that the relationship is going wrong, it's, it's, it's criticizing and invalidation.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, shaming and blaming.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, shaming and blaming. I think there's a, there's a role, there's. What's your favorite saying about the play I want you to use? Do it like your active producing.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, my friend Agnes, who is a therapist. We enter graduate school together and she says that oftentimes when you have two people in a relationship, there's this one that's doing all this producing and directing, but they don't have any role in the play and so they're busy telling their partner what to do, and that's exactly the opposite of listening and support and probably most of the other things that we're going to talk about today. And since she said that to me, I'm like oh, it's so interesting because I see that in a lot of my clients that I see individually with relationship problems and with couples, that I see there's often one person that is much, much more vocal than the other, and if you watch the two of them together, there's your nonverbal language that you were talking about before. Right? Nonverbal communication is that, like, one person will be going on, and on, and on, and on and on, and you can just see the partner just shrinking right, they're embarrassed or you know they're hurt, they're looking away, there's no eye contact, and then they react in different ways.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, gottman talks about it and it's something I speak with couples about, which is turning towards each other instead of turning away. Affirmation and validation means that you validate each other's feelings and experiences and oftentimes in relationships that are going haywire, it's that you know this person is like I think, I think, or I'm telling you, or, as you said, they're acting and directing and they aren't playing an active role in the relationship, and I think that nagging and that complaining like pulls people out right.
Lindsay Oakes:Definitely. I think that's what happened with a session that I had recently where one partner was much more vocal than the other and now the other partner, you know, walked away from the session, really upset, and you know it happens, it happens. But I say we have to turn it around now and see why are you so upset that your partner is bothered by that behavior in you? Yeah Right, so it kind of gives a talking point as well.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, support means that you're on the same team, and one of the songs that I always sit down and speak to clients about is Boy George's Karma Chameleon, which is every day is like survival You're my lover, not my rival, and that means that you know we're in a team. And part of being a team means that you have nonjudgmental listening, which means that when your partner comes to tell you something you don't judge, you allow them to express themselves without criticism.
Lindsay Oakes:But that's really hard for people because nobody really wants to hear about their faults, Right? And so I think that people that do the work on themselves are more open to saying yeah, I did that. And people who really aren't ready to do the work, they aren't ready to look at that. So when someone has a complaint about them or someone expresses a feeling, they don't feel supported and instead they feel you know, they feel a certain way, they get offended, they get upset and it's really because they don't want to look at that quality or that characteristic in themselves.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, what I've found with couples that don't practice nonjudgmental listening there's a lot of secrets and lies in those relationships, because the one person feels like, oh, I can't talk because this person is going to judge everything that I'm going to say, so therefore I'm not going to say anything, or I'm going to say something that they want to hear, but not the truth. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I think that that's interesting. I actually think a lot of couples do that. Yeah, right, I do. I think a lot of couples do that. I think that and and or they make excuses right. When you start to call them out on it, they'll make excuses right, especially with individual clients. For example, I have a client that's having a lot of relationship problems and when I call him out on it, he's like, oh, but she's so nice, she's so great, and I'm like that's interesting, right, because I'm sure that you didn't think she was being so nice when you did the things that you did. So, right, there's. It's like people go on the defense. They can't look at their own shit, because once you see your own shit, you can't unsee it, right. And then you're like, oh crap, I'm doing that thing again, right, and I'm going to be really aware of it. And then we become hyper aware of it, right, and then, and then we end up not being our authentic selves because we're tiptoeing around a person who's not stable.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, makes sense. And I do want to ask you one last question about adaptability in being supportive. What do you think about being adaptable in a relationship?
Lindsay Oakes:I think I already said it right. It's lending support and, you know, being a shoulder to lean on for your partner, whether or not you agree with what they're doing or saying, right, yeah. So you have to adapt and you have to say you know, this is the way, this is the way that it's going to be. So I either have to deal with it or not deal with it. Right, and if you want, if you love somebody, then you need to adapt.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. Once again, it goes back to that good communication and it goes back to teamwork. It's this idea of being a team, one of the funnier sayings that was told to me in my first marriage, and I always remember it as a man maybe the head of his family, but his wife is the neck. You can't turn your head without your neck, and so it seems that the key between but being supportive means that you are working as a cohesive unit and by building community, by using emotional intelligence and also by providing constructive feedback.
Lindsay Oakes:Right Learning to tell the truth in a nice way. We talked about that a few weeks ago. Remember when we talked about an episode on communication? But let's dive into the next topic encouraging your partner Right. Last week we talked about nagging, and so encouraging differs from nagging in that you are encouraging your partner to do something that they have an interest in or that they want to do, Whereas with nagging your partner, you're trying to get them to do something that you want them to do that they don't necessarily want to do.
Cleveland Oakes:How is I want to play devil's advocate for a second how is encouraging a partner different than a partner who might be invested in something that is a pipe dream? Like, let's say, lindsay, I come home on 50. I'm going to be 51 this year and I tell you, lindsay, I want to be a rapper.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I mean, I luckily I could support our family, so it's not going to be an issue for us. But no, I mean, I mean that's kind of really a very out there. Yeah, right, that's not something we would encounter here's something that we're going to encounter right, that's something that's very real in our relationship is that in two years I don't want to live here anymore. I want to live somewhere warm. I'm willing to compromise and be in the continental United States with you, because you're afraid of living in the Caribbean, but it's going to be a big risk.
Cleveland Oakes:Wait, wait, wait. I want to go back, Not afraid. I just don't want to live in a confined space. It's very claustrophobic. As beautiful as the islands are, I don't want to live someplace that I'm surrounded by water and it's ironic from somebody living on the island of Manhattan but I don't want to just be someplace where I can't go anywhere. That that is the breadth and the extent. But I am open to it because I am support your dreams and I support what you want.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. But ultimately I said, ok, I'll go to warmer weather with you and we can be somewhere where you have what you want, which is important to you, right, which is good hospitals and businesses that are open every day of the week Because your boy is getting old.
Cleveland Oakes:But to your point about encouragement is is that we have encouraged each other, even though it's not something that was like a number one on my list. We compromised, we talked about it and now we are in agreement on a warm destination, and now we're encouraging it.
Lindsay Oakes:You know we're just going to be a lot of change, right, because it's going to be a big career change for the both of us, because I'm going to give up right now which what's very lucrative to me, right, and you'll be giving something up as well.
Lindsay Oakes:So it's, you know, and kind of, we have to encourage each other to really take a risk and make a plan, and you know, it's very different than me saying to you well, I'm going to go anyway If you're not going to come with me, right? Oh, you need to do this or you need to do that, right? I'm not nagging you about it, I just said this is simply this is my dream, this is what I want to do. And I told you when we met eight years ago that once everyone was out for college, I'm out of here, especially for the winters, and so you've had eight years to process it, and I think now it's getting close, it's on the horizon, and so you're like, oh, I think I have to go, so it's so it sounds like in our own relationship and other was to be successful.
Cleveland Oakes:That encouragement means that you support each other's personal goals. Yeah, absolutely.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know and it's not going to be an easy move for us you know we're used to a certain lifestyle, but you know, sometimes you got to change right and you can't. You can't control right what's going to happen when you get there, but you just have to have some faith that it's going to work out.
Cleveland Oakes:And one of the things that has worked well for us especially in a couple who see things completely differently about us, about life goals is being open to new experience. It's like I was very closed when I first met Lindsay. I was very close to the idea of leaving Brooklyn. I was very close to the idea of leaving New York. I was very close to the idea of going pursuing therapy or becoming a therapist or even going back to school. And Lindsay encouraged me. She didn't nag me. She encouraged me to try new experiences, to travel new places and to explore new things, and that is a key to I wish we did this show when we went to Sebastian's on the beach.
Lindsay Oakes:Talk about your devil. Well listen, that was hotels without a lobby. Yeah, hotels without a lobby. That was a new experience for me.
Cleveland Oakes:That was definitely a new experience for me.
Lindsay Oakes:Hotels with an adding machine.
Cleveland Oakes:Hotels with an adding machine takes you half hour to check out all the local hoodlums on the car. Lindsay, you're back, girl, you know. So that was. Those are my friends. I know those are your friends in it, but it was a new experience for me and it was something and you felt safer because they knew me Because they knew you.
Lindsay Oakes:But that is what encouragement means that was from my wilder days before you Pre. I call it pre-cleave and post-cleave, anyway, yeah, so that's really what encouragement is right. And if your, if your partner is struggling through the transition, is, you know, helping them out with that listening again, right, it goes back to the other parts, right Listening and supporting them. So let's move on from that and talk about trust, right? Trust is an essential, healthy habit that you need to have in a relationship, because if you decide to be in a relationship, you're making a decision to trust the other person. If you can't, then you shouldn't go into the relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I agree with that. Oftentimes I, when I'm sitting down, you know, as I'm telling you the truth. So for any of you guys listening that wonder if what your therapist thinks about your relationship when they're sitting with it, sometimes we are sitting there and being like run, motherfucker, run.
Lindsay Oakes:Sometimes. But if people would listen to us and put these habits into play, we wouldn't think that.
Cleveland Oakes:And so when I sit down with a couple that does not trust each other, I read that is my. That's. The first thing I want to say is like run, like, if you do not trust each other, why are you together? But I can't.
Lindsay Oakes:But that's an important thing to bring up because honestly trust the first part is you have to trust yourself that you're making a decision to enter into a relationship that's going to be, you know, healthy, is going to work for you, where your partner is going to work for you, and the only reason you shouldn't trust that person is if they actually gave you a reason To not trust them.
Lindsay Oakes:So if they've done something to the contrary, then I could see where there's trust problems. But if you go into a relationship and you're jealous and you don't trust right from the beginning, that's something that's going on with yourself, and I think that's actually interesting that you bring that up, because a lot of people, I think, enter into relationships not trusting themselves because they can't be alone and they don't like themselves and so they think that this other person is going to add some kind of value to their life. But if you don't trust yourself and I always say this too right if you don't love yourself, how could you love someone else?
Cleveland Oakes:Trust is the cornerstone of any healthy relationship, starting with yourself, and it provides the foundation for emotional safety, stability and mutual respect. One of the things that I think about trust is you have to build trust through consistent behavior. One of the stories I've shared with clients is that if you are a puppy that has been kicked his whole life or been mistreated his whole life, you've learned not to trust people and you can maybe take that into another relationship and destroy that relationship for somebody who hasn't done anything to you, just because your experiences have taught you that people are not to be trusted.
Lindsay Oakes:Can we talk about something in our own relationship for a minute, because I think it's interesting, right? Because I think no, it's not. Don't worry, it's not about what I said earlier. I won't embarrass you like that. But remember, when we met, you had been in a tumultuous relationship for years, and so I think both of us had some issues going into the relationship and we've worked them out.
Lindsay Oakes:But I remember one of the things that you used to do was like if I didn't pick up the phone right away, or I think one night you came home from work and I wasn't here and you were like what the fuck, where are you? And I was like I'm at therapy. But immediately and this is how things work, right, it's immediately. I was saying this before right, this is with adaptability that you were talking about Immediately your mind went to the place where you had someone in the past who had you know was unfaithful. And meanwhile I'm like five blocks away at my therapist and you're sitting outside the house and you're like I'm going to wait in the car, I'm going to come and find you. I'm like what? I'm like I'll be home in 10 minutes.
Cleveland Oakes:I think I was playing.
Lindsay Oakes:And right and so. But on the other hand, right, what do I do? I just shut you out, like if something happened, I'd be like nope, just don't come over today. Right, don't do this. No, I don't need you, I could do it myself, right? So both of us brought stuff from a previous relationship into this relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:But and one of the things that I've seen destroy relationships, is that armor that people put up because they're that puppy that's been kicked or because they think the world is a, is a, is a cruel place, is that they come in and they're not honest and they're not transparent because they're not looking at their, at their, Maybe they have shame or guilt or fear about how what they're going to say is going to be received.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and I think that's one of those kinds of emotions in another episode, because shame, fear and guilt are like an episode in itself. Right, because those are very low vibration emotions and we all need to learn to get rid of those things and accept our past experiences as part of who we are.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and so, and to finish my thought, too Sorry.
Lindsay Oakes:No, no, it's fine. I know I interrupt you too much. No, it's fine. Let me tell you I don't interrupt you. You'll keep talking for the whole hour and I'll be sitting here just looking at you.
Cleveland Oakes:I get feedback about the show, and what's so funny is the men was like oh man, you know you should be stepping on your lines. And the women are like, oh my God, you talk too much and I love when she shuts you down, so don't go changing to try to please me. But to your point and to my point it's when you don't trust your partner, it's not a partnership, right? If you can't be honest and transparent with the person that you sleep with, then who can you be honest and transparent with?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, and if you can't be that way with yourself, you definitely can't be that way with your partner.
Cleveland Oakes:So, before we move on to the next topic, I do want to ask you and this is another thing that I see couples hold on to that they hold on to the past is how do forgiveness and understanding play into trust?
Lindsay Oakes:Well again, if you're not, if you are going to move forward in a relationship and there was a breach of trust or a violation of your trust or some kind of betrayal, if you're going to move forward in that relationship, then you have to be willing to give your partner another chance and leave that behind, because moving forward means leaving the past in the past. If you can't leave it there and it's going to come up and plague your daily arguments and you're going to start with the you know well, you did this and you did that Then it's not going to work ever. You have to be willing to put that behind you and let it go and move forward from a place of you know what. We're going to be different this time.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and it seems like trust moves between a place of independence and interdependence, with independence meaning that you trust your partner to do something independently without you, right?
Lindsay Oakes:And I do work with a couple right now that is struggling with things that happened in the past. Right, and even though one person has expressed their regret and embarrassment over what happened, the other person is like well, I just don't trust that they won't do it again. It's like then why are we here? Right, because why are you wasting your money every week if you don't really know if you want to move forward? Right, because you could sit at home and not know Right, right, right.
Cleveland Oakes:And so for the person that's broken the trust, before we move on to our next topic, it means it's, it involves a sincere apology and a commitment to change. But you also have to restore. You also have to be consistent with that commitment to change in order to restore trust. And trust, getting it back once it's lost is very hard.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, Well, I think, especially when you're at an age where you want to start a family with someone. Right, and a lot of women I see right like getting to their 30s, their biological clock is ticking, they say they really want a family and I think the thought of starting over is scarier. Right, Then the thought of, you know, staying with their current partner, even if they're not 100% satisfied or don't trust them. What do you think?
Cleveland Oakes:I think so I agree, 100% agree.
Lindsay Oakes:So let's move on to the next topic, which is respect. This is something that you and I talk about a lot, and when you respect your partner, you should never, ever, ever do anything that demeans them or reduces their self-esteem or how they feel about themselves. What do you think?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, I agree Right. One of the things that was a challenge for me in this relationship is I did come out of a relationship in which I was rivals or enemies with with my ex-wife, and oftentimes that would make me talk about her or in a way that she was an enemy, and that's something that I brought into this relationship where I would, you know sometimes, oh well, Lindsay did this and Lindsay did that, and I can't believe that she did this and that's not. That's not how a relationship should work right. It's not showing respect.
Lindsay Oakes:No, and I remember when we met. You know your ex has had a lot of struggles. I'd like to think she's hopefully, you know, doing a little better now, but she's had a lot of her own struggles and I remember when we met, there were times where she would text you and reach out and it would be really hostile and I would just take the phone and respond and be like you know what happy holidays to you and your new partner, right, and then she would just change the whole tune, right. So it's just, you know, you just have to. You have to move on right.
Lindsay Oakes:Respect people, don't talk about them. Because when you talk about your partner with other people and I have, I know people who do this All the time, right, and I'm thinking of one person in particular that I know who talks so much trash about her husband that it's like why are you married to him? Right, because all it looks like to me is that he's a jerk and you're not flexible and you're criticizing and you complain and you blame him for everything and you take no accountability for, maybe, why he may be acting this way.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, many, many years ago, when I was in the Kingdom Hall, when I was a Jehovah's Witness, a brother gave a great talk and I do value a lot of the things that I took away from that religion, but he gave a great talk about what does it mean to bad mouth your partner? And basically what he said is to your point exactly is when you go and disrespect your partner, you are disrespecting yourself, because people are looking at you like, well, such and such, as an idiot, and they'll be like, well, you're the idiot that married her or you're the idiot that married him, and so you're really not doing anything that is any beneficial. When you go out and you bad mouth your partner, you're disrespecting the state of your relationship, you're in your disrespecting yourself and you're really making yourself look foolish to everyone. Right? Have you ever gone out with that couple that doesn't respect each other? And then they argue in the front of everyone.
Lindsay Oakes:It's embarrassing, it's really embarrassing, right. We don't. We don't really hang out with a lot of couples that do that. I do know a couple of people who do this and mostly talk about it, and my colleague of mine and I were talking actually about this too, because she knows someone who did this and she actually was out with her a bunch of people from her job, and one of them was complaining about the husband again and again, and so she finally said well, if you're so unhappy, why don't you just leave him? And do you know that? That woman has never spoken her again?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, well, please, don't Please don't Right.
Lindsay Oakes:That's crazy, Because that's the truth, Like I usually say to people, right? I learned this from Zila, the energy healer I work with, and she said you can say to somebody you know I'm going to give you five minutes to complain about that and then tell me what you're going to do about it. And that's what I sometimes feel like saying about people Like you can't solve other people's problems, but you can solve your own Right, and you need to be. When you're in a relationship and I said this last week during a session you have to accept your partner the way they are, Right. You chose to enter a relationship. So maybe that person is not ready to heal from their trauma, Maybe that person is not ready to come to couples therapy and tell the big secret, but you have to be able to be with that person and say I can hold the space for all your emotions, whether they've come out yet or they haven't. What do you think?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think so. I think that's important because respect is a fundamental element in healthy relationships and influences how partners interact and influences how we communicate and influences how we support each other. If you do not have respect in a relationship, you do not have a relationship.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. And we have to let our partners face all of their like terrifying feelings, right, and their own convictions and truths when they're ready, and so we just have to respect the process you know for them. We can't say, oh well, he does this and he does that, right, well, you married them. And I always say to my clients too guess what she or he did that before you moved in together? Yeah, you just chose not to look at it because the sex was good and the dating was fun or whatever. It was right, right. But now that you're living together and it's in your face every single day and it's the routine of working and coming home and having other responsibilities, right, whether it's children or running around for appointments and things on the weekends and running errands you chose to marry that person. So at one point those things didn't matter as much. So now why are they a problem?
Cleveland Oakes:And another thing that I see when folks don't respect each other is there's no equality and there's no fairness. There's one set of rules for you and there's one set of rules for me, right? And one of the famous sayings is what's that sometimes husbands make about wives is what's mine is yours and what's yours is yours, and a lot of times, that is what breaks up a relationship. I think you told me a couple that you had a couple maybe a while back, that the person was well, I think this and I think that, and I think this and I think this, and then the husband finally exploded and was like well, I think you don't want me to have any fun.
Lindsay Oakes:That's absolutely exactly what happened, and I was just sitting there and I was like, yeah, bro, I don't think she wants you to have any fun either, but I couldn't say that and you know, and it ended up being a big point of contention. But I actually really liked them as a couple and I really I actually would love to see them come out on the other side. I think it's going to be a challenge for both of them. They both have a lot of work to do, but I would love to see them come out on the other side together and work through this, because I think that you can do the work. It's not easy, but you can do it.
Lindsay Oakes:And I think it is so much harder to do the work than it is to throw in the towel and go on a dating app and find someone else to go out with tomorrow, and I think that's another part of the problem. Right, if I can just sidetrack from it, we should actually talk about dating in an episode. But part of the problem is with online. It's just too easy to go find somebody else tomorrow, and so you don't have to make it work because, oh, this isn't good enough. Well, there's 500,000 more people that I could click on.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, a colleague of mine used to call that app intoxication. Now here's something that we've struggled with, even in our own relationship, is privacy, and oftentimes what we see is what we see when folks I know you're laughing Because you know what I'm thinking- about it is respecting each other's privacy, which is not invading personal spaces.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, I thought you meant the kids are home and we can't get busy.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, well, that too, well, that too, but no, no, no, I'm talking about stuff, sorry.
Lindsay Oakes:No, when I talk about private. You made me laugh there. It's been a minute.
Cleveland Oakes:No. I'm just kidding, it has not been. Well, yeah, literally, probably like a minute, like a minute literally, but no, when I'm sorry it's fine to digress. You're bringing some humor to the show. When I'm talking about privacy, I'm talking about invading folks privacy. Sometimes couples think well, just because I'm married to this person, I have a right to look through their emails, I have a right to pick up their phone, I have a right to look through their belongings without consent. What are your thoughts on that?
Lindsay Oakes:No, because if you trust that person, then you respect their privacy, right, right. I mean, I think that we've both been in situations where I think my phone when we first met my phone was on the counter and my ex-husband had texted me about something with the kids. And you were like, well, why is he texting you? And I'm like we have three little kids? And you were like, oh right, and there was something recently where you left it out and I was like, oh, that's gross. But you were like, yeah, it is, and so, yes, but also, why would you go and seek out that information?
Cleveland Oakes:Right. Why are you looking for clues? One of the things that I talk about in. I had a couple that came and saw me some time ago and the partners were arguing about emails that had been sent during a period of time that they weren't together and I had to actually sit down and remind both of them that email was not written for you. It was not written with the intent that you were going to see it. It wasn't written with the intent that it was. The message wasn't for you. It was not for you. It was the person cheating on you. No, you just did not like the content of what was in your partners, what they had to say. But if I were to go pick up my mother's phone right now and invade 81-year-old grandma Jean's privacy, she got a boyfriend.
Lindsay Oakes:You don't know what you're going to see. I don't know what I'm going to find.
Cleveland Oakes:And so if you go to invade someone's private thoughts, I mean, let's think about it realistically Do you want everyone knowing what's in your mind?
Lindsay Oakes:No, don't you remember that movie? What was that movie where the guy could, like he I don't know if he hit his head or something and he could hear everything that women were saying. Do you remember that? Oh?
Cleveland Oakes:yeah, I kind of remember it's an older movie, but I can yeah what, what, what, what.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, he was going crazy yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:What women think or something like that.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, something like that.
Cleveland Oakes:But what you can imagine that private thoughts are private, and if you go into some, if you invade somebody's privacy, I'm going to tell you 10 times out of 10, you're going to find some shit you ain't want to find, and so you really have to you hiding something?
Cleveland Oakes:No, but nobody's hiding anything. But you are going to find something that you did not want to find. It doesn't mean that the person's cheating. It might be that the dude likes Cheetos and you want him to eat ravioli, but it is important and would you agree on this, in respecting each other's privacy, right?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely Everybody you know. I mean, listen, you and I are very, we're very different because we also live our own lives in addition to living our life together. Right, I travel. You've had to go on some trips for school by yourself, like, if I didn't trust you, I'd be going with you and like I don't really need to come. Yeah, like you can, you know we can do things and come back together.
Lindsay Oakes:I think you've also said, too right, that like cheating is like having a second full time job, right, like you have one partner which takes up a lot of time and space and thought and then when people cheat, it's they have, they go on and they are like doing something else that they have to remember a whole set of lies about. Right, and so you know, I think the problem is that the couples like that is that there's definitely trust issues, either within themselves or things that have happened in their relationship, and what's coming out with the couple you're talking about is they see something and it's a trigger for whatever those trust issues were even if it didn't happen in their relationship, right, which means they don't fully trust themselves or their partner and they shouldn't be in the relationship which we just talked about.
Lindsay Oakes:So, but let's move on from respect and talk about. Talk about acceptance, Right, because in any relationship there's going to be differences and imperfections, and acceptance is not easy, but it allows us to embrace and acknowledge our partner's acceptances right, Even if they challenge our own beliefs or our own perceptions of things, and so acceptance is vital in the harmony and understanding in a relationship. What do you think of that?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I can't remember the scripture off the top of my head, but it's like love hopes all things and doers all things. Love never fails and we talked about that in an earlier episode. But acceptance, you know, means that it involves embracing each other's individuality, the flaws, the differences, while fostering a non a judgmental and a supportive environment. And once again it goes back to that idea of karma. Chameleon, every day is like survival You're my lover, not my rival, and I think that is what destroys I don't think I know that's what destroys relationships.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, and this came up with a couple I had recently and actually it's funny because I brought it back to our relationship. Something that you do a lot is leave tissues around the house and like you don't even blow your nose, and you also fill your pockets with all kinds of things Like I will literally find like the wrapper of a teabag, a sleep mask, in your pocket, right, and it used to get so annoying, and now I just scooped them up and throw them in the garbage and I'm like you know what? I chose to marry him and I love him. So like he did this when we met and now, eight years later, he still does it. So like I just have to be like all right, it is what it is Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Same thing with your socks. I don't know what it is with you and socks. You probably buy 500 pair of socks a year and you probably know where two pair are right now, and I will find your socks in the craziest places, Like once I found your socks in a bin of potatoes in the back of the kitchen.
Lindsay Oakes:Another time I found them in dirty socks in my drawer of clean laundry and I'm just like I just take them out and throw them in the laundry bucket now. Right, because I could sit there and fight with you or I could just be like. You know what? I accept this. This is how he is, and all of his positive qualities, you know, outweigh this.
Cleveland Oakes:So it sounds like there that you're practicing three things right, patience and tolerance, forgiveness and understanding, and you're also giving me non-judgmental support.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but I think you also give those to me, because I think I'm more vocal about your bad habits than you are about mine.
Cleveland Oakes:And one of the funny things I just want to say. I laugh because I have two colleagues who I love dearly my buddy Sam, who wants to come on the show, and Sam, if you listen and eventually will have you on. But Sam, when I'm not around, he will dump tissue all over my desk. Just because that's what I do, like I'll come back to my seat. There's tissue on the floor and it's just so bizarre. And even my colleague MC used to say that when she didn't see me she knew I was at work because there would be a trail of tissue up the hallway.
Lindsay Oakes:What is that? No idea, I don't even think you know that you're doing it. I really don't. But, it's very funny.
Lindsay Oakes:I must have done something in my childhood, you know so in order to, you know, have a harmonious and successful relationship, we have to accept our partner's flaws right? One thing that I had with a client a long time ago and it hasn't come in a long time was that his wife would just not do the dishes, and he hated that. And I'm like, dude, he didn't. She didn't do them before you met, right, she didn't do them before you met, you know what? Now you just live together and so she doesn't do them. And the thing is, she knows you're going to do them, so she doesn't have to do them, right? So it's like you just have to accept that she's not going to do them.
Lindsay Oakes:End of story and that goes to the point that it shows that I have to accept that you're going to keep putting our nice glasses in the dishwasher until they're all ruined, even though I've told you again this morning that I can't stand it. And then you know what I did an hour later, after you were in the kitchen, pulled another one out.
Cleveland Oakes:That you put in.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh my God really. But you know, that's, that's the thing, right, okay? So like I just have to, just I just go in behind you now and take them out and hand wash them.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, I was testing you on flexibility and compromise and showing flexibility, showing flexibility in your expectations means that you're willing to compromise.
Lindsay Oakes:So I'm willing to take them out and wash them by hand after you put them in, because you're too lazy to wash them by hand.
Cleveland Oakes:Maybe I'm just not, I'm just not paying attention, but it goes.
Lindsay Oakes:but we have a harmonious relationship because we're like we we despite my flaws and I think we found humor in each other's flaws right and that's really important in the success of a relationship. We laugh a lot together, Like we do stupid things and we sometimes we just sit and laugh.
Cleveland Oakes:And sometimes with couples I sit with. The biggest problem they have in these relationships is the lack of flexibility that one partner has, and it's like if you are inflexible and if you are unwilling to compromise, you should have stayed single 100% I.
Lindsay Oakes:That's a good place to move on, because I have nothing else to say. You are absolutely right. Let's move on to the final point Negotiation, negotiating differences. Every relationship has conflict. If someone comes to me and tells me that their relationship is wonderful and they don't fight, I do not believe them, or I tell them then they shouldn't be in that relationship because that means that nobody has any boundaries and nobody is willing to be assertive with the other person to be who they authentically are Right. What do you think?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think negotiation of relationships is a crucial skill because it helps both partners find a mutually satisfying solution to a disagreement. I'm in an insurer's that both individuals needs and desires are acknowledged and addressed.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and it's not like you need to do it my way or I need to do it your way. It's like let's find a mutually agreeable solution. Right. There's compromise, understanding and a willingness to work together that comes from that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and in Dr Kovie's seven habits of highly successful people he talks about win-win situations, win-lose situations and lose-lose situations. A negotiation, when it comes out, should be a win-win, but a lot of times couples get into it where it's a lose-lose or a win-lose. What do you think about that, lindsay?
Lindsay Oakes:I do. I think you're correct. It's for some reason, I feel like in regards to the lose-lose, right? I mean, here's the perfect example my clients that you were talking about earlier with that. Well, she doesn't want me to have any fun. Right Now we're on a lose-lose because they've taken a break from each other and couples therapy because nobody could come to the table and say, oh, this isn't working. So both are so stuck in their point that who's winning right now?
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right. Dr Kovie in that book gives an example of a man who had a house that was worth $2 million and had a, was going through a divorce and the judge decided that he had to sell the house and give the money to the wife. Right so, and split them, and split it halfway. It was like it was. It was more than a $2 million, it was like a $10 million house. Do you know how much? The man sold the house for how much? $1, and gave his wife $50.
Lindsay Oakes:Because he didn't need the money.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but that is a lose-lose scenario and a lot of times what happens in a relationship is that folks will burn. It's scorched earth. You can't go into a relationship with a scorched earth mentality, whereas if I lose, you lose. I had another colleague that used to be in the NFL and he left the NFL for that same reason, because he was like, if my wife is going to get half of what I'm going to get, she's going to get half of nothing. And he went on to become a driver at FedEx and and I was really interesting in is I don't think that folks understand that when you don't have a win-win scenario which is a goal, which is a, which is a negotiation- that should be a goal in relationships, right, a big goal.
Lindsay Oakes:I win, you win, I accept you this way, you get to do this and we're both happy. Yeah, god, it drives me crazy. I do know how many couples I see or have clients in bad relationships and I want to say to them but you can't. As a therapist, I want to say to them run, run, pack your shit and run, but I can't. So I sit there and I'm like, oh, okay, and then we talk it through. And then the next week guess what?
Lindsay Oakes:It happened again because the person wasn't ready to go and put up a boundary or to tell them how they felt and like, yes, speaking your feelings is not easy because you don't know how the other person is going to react. But do you want to not be who you are and live in this mediocre life where you're not happy and you don't get to say what you want and what you like? Would you rather do that for the rest of your life? Or would you rather give your partner partner the option to say you know what? No, I can't meet those expectations, I'm out of here. So like what would you rather? I would rather I'd rather be alone yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I'd rather be alone if that was the case. So let me ask you a question as we, as we, as we're getting close to wrapping up how is an ultimatum different than boundaries? So several years ago I had a client and that we were sitting down and we were talking about where he was unhappy in his relationship and I was like, well, why don't you just set a boundary? And he was like no boundaries and ultimatum, that's ultimatum and how. I just want you to understand. And then we had to have a conversation of where ultimatum and a boundary are different.
Lindsay Oakes:So, ultimatums are, and ultimatum is if you don't do this, then I'm doing this, or if you do this, then I'm not doing this. Right, that's an ultimatum, it's an if, then A boundary is simply a way of teaching people how to love you and respect you. This is what I need, right? This is what makes me feel good. Right, I mean a perfect example. Here's a boundary, right?
Lindsay Oakes:I had a work situation recently where I started with a new company that I was contracting to and I contract to a lot of companies and, long story short, the woman that I had to report directly to was very nasty. Repeated emails, like if I sent five reports in. She sent me five responses saying she didn't want them until all the packets were complete. And that's not the way any other agency does it, and that was not laid out in the beginning for me in how they like things done. So I was just doing my job the way I've done it for 20 years, and she just got progressively nastier and nastier with me. There was a gender error in there and she sent me a rude email that she's not a copy editor, and I simply went to the woman who assigned me work and I said these are the children that I have not done developmental testing for yet, and I listed them out. Please take them and give them to someone else, and do not give me any more work.
Lindsay Oakes:That's a boundary. I will not be treated this way by you. That's a boundary. That's not an ultimatum. That's a you are treating me this way. It makes me feel this way. That is not on it. That is not acceptable to me. I don't allow people to treat me that way.
Cleveland Oakes:So where ultimatum differs from a boundary is it's an open end discussion that explores another alternative, whereas an ultimatum is like we're gonna do it this way and we ain't talking, no more. Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:And there's no other way. Right, it's my way or no way is the ultimatum. And I think that's you know, that's a big thing, because it ended up working out in my favor, because the office said no, we want you, we'll give you another supervisor. But I said I will not be treated this way, like I will not go somewhere and allow someone to treat me this way because of one error or because she didn't tell me her rules ahead of time. Right? And so you know, having boundaries with people is being able to be who you are and to maintain that feeling. Right Of feeling good, feeling content, feeling like you're caring for yourself. If you let someone treat you like that, every time that I open the email from her right now, it's been what I mean.
Lindsay Oakes:That was back in October, so now it's what? Three more months, right, four more months. I would have anxiety every time I saw an email from her. I've relieved myself of that anxiety, putting up the boundary that I will not be spoken to this way and if this is the way that you people work, then I will not be working with you, end of story. And that's not an ultimatum. I'm not saying fire her, right? I'm saying this doesn't work for me, yeah absolutely.
Cleveland Oakes:The last point that I want to make on for me on this topic is a commitment to mutual satisfaction. Negotiating means that once again, it means that you win or I win. A commitment to mutual satisfaction means that both partners should be committed to achieving outcomes that increase the mutual satisfaction and enhance the relationship, rather than focusing solely on individual gain. Right and so what I think about this is a selfish lover.
Lindsay Oakes:Did you say negotiation means it's either. I think you said that wrong.
Cleveland Oakes:What? Maybe I said it backwards, so I'm going to say it again.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, because the negotiation is okay. It doesn't mean like a lose. Lose, yeah, no, that's what I said.
Cleveland Oakes:So it's a commitment to mutual satisfaction. So negotiation if I said it wrong is a negotiation means that you win. I win right. And when I think about a commitment to mutual satisfaction, I think about someone who's a selfish lover. I remember the Richard Bay show years ago and the woman he was talking about. When a man is a selfish lover, it's like he's on top of her and it's like bang bang, bang, bang, bang bang bang, bang, bang bang, and it's like there's no satisfaction in it.
Cleveland Oakes:Who wants that? And so in a relationship, you should want to make sure that your partner gets the same level of satisfaction as you're getting in all aspects of the relationship. And that's just really my final thought on that.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I agree with you. So I think at this time we can wrap up, and you know we'll be back with another episode very soon.
Cleveland Oakes:So this is another episode of the Devil you Don't Know, and if you would like what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes or whatever platform we're on, and you can email us at gettonowthedevil at gmailcom and we will answer your questions on air.