Heartache and Healing: Embracing Grief, Accepting Death, and Finding Joy After Loss

The table was set with jackfruit nachos, an unexpected yet delightful twist in our health-conscious journey when the conversation took a profound turn. This week's episode is a heartfelt exploration of grief prompted by the personal story of my father's passing from COVID-19. Together, we traverse the emotional landscape of loss, from the strains of family dynamics to the solace found in accepting the inescapable reality of death, revealing the profoundly varied ways my family and I have navigated our sorrow.

Through candid discussions and introspection, this episode serves as a compassionate guide and a testament to the universal experience of loss, offering a beacon of understanding for anyone seeking solace amid heartache.

- Cleveland

Resources

Personal Narratives:
The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion
• This memoir delves into Didion's experience of losing her husband unexpectedly, offering a raw and intimate look at the process of grieving.

When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi
• Written by a neurosurgeon who faced a terminal cancer diagnosis, this book explores what makes life worth living in the face of death.

Wave by Sonali Deraniyagala
• A heartbreaking account of loss, where Deraniyagala narrates her experience of losing her family to the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami and her journey through grief.

Practical Guides:
On Grief and Grieving: Finding the Meaning of Grief Through the Five Stages of Loss by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and David Kessler
• This book outlines the five stages of grief, providing insight and comfort to those mourning, and is considered a seminal work in grief counseling.
Healing After Loss: Daily Meditations For Working Through Grief by Martha Whitmore Hickman
• Offers daily meditations that help individuals cope with the day-to-day realities of loss, providing comfort and encouragement.

It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand by Megan Devine
• A practical guide that challenges conventional wisdom about grief, offering a compassionate perspective on how to deal with loss in a healing way.

Philosophical and Spiritual Insights:
Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom
• This book shares the author's visits with his former sociology professor, Morrie Schwartz, who is dying from ALS. Their conversations cover life's essential lessons, including how to cope with death.

The Art of Dying Well: A Practical Guide to a Good End of Life by Katy Butler
• Butler offers clear-eyed advice and practical steps for living well in the latter part of life and making wise choices to ensure a peaceful death.

Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End by Atul Gawande
• Gawande, a surgeon and public health researcher, explores the intersection of medicine, quality of life, and how we deal with mortality.

Staring at the Sun: Overcoming the Terror of Death by Irvin D. Yalom
• This book examines how the fear of death significantly influences our lives and offers insights into how we can live more fully by confronting our mortality.

These books offer a range of perspectives on death, from personal accounts of loss and grief to advice on living well in the face of mortality. They can be a valuable resource for anyone seeking understanding and comfort during difficult times.

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

Cleveland Oakes: 0:01

This is Cleveland.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:02

This is Lindsay.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:03

And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know. This week we're going to take a change and go from a happy topic to one that's a little more somber. We're going to talk about death and unexpected death. But before we get into that, Lindsay, tell me something good that you ate this week.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:21

Well, I think probably ate the same thing, which is a big hit. The jackfruit nachos that I made. They were supposed to be enchiladas, but you decided you wanted something that you can hold in your hands and that was crispy. So I made these jackfruit enchilada filling and then we just used it on nachos with a bunch of veggies and some homemade corn tortilla chips.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:46

Oh, delicious, as always delicious. I hit out the park. You know, what's so funny is, before I became vegan, these things would have been like, so unappealing to me. But now that I am and I'm eating it, it's just amazing how delicious and nutritious these meals are and they actually have contributed a lot to my health and the positive means.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:03

And we have not used oil now in our cooking here since we came back from Florida when I told you I was going to cut out the processed food and the oil and I think we're probably about 95% unprocessed and the only time we probably eat oil is if we go out. I had to cook that way.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:19

What's interesting about this, about eating, and then even today's topic is I think you put me on the two books which are how not to die and how not to die it and really the folks don't even acknowledge that what we eat is really what contributes to our poor health Absolutely, and I think Americans especially are so obsessed with. I need my steak, I need my potatoes.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:40

I need. My bacon and cheese are the big ones I hear. I can't give up cheese. I can't give up cheese, right, oh, but I love bacon and I have a lot to say about that, but I'll probably just keep it to myself.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:54

And without getting into too much of the topic, dr Gary, you know, many years ago, talked about dead things and live things and he made a good point. He was like if you put dead things and this is before veganism became popular, I think I was listening to this on my way to work in the 90s but if you put dead things in your body, you are expecting your body to build new cells and new life with dead things.

Lindsay Oakes: 2:17

Yeah, dharma Mitra says that if you eat things that are fried and dead and frozen, then you're going to be fried and dead and frozen. Basically, you are what you eat, right? I read how not to die yet because I am always interested in plant-based nutrition, and then I picked up how not to die, because it has separate chapters for different conditions and you know, I've been very interested in. My cholesterol and blood pressure are fantastic, which I know you envy Mine, not so much.

Lindsay Oakes: 2:51

But I'm trying to get yours there and so how not to die has a whole chapter just on reduction of blood pressure. I think that's the biggest thing you struggle with, and you do love processed food, so that's where that comes from. But I want to live a long, healthy life with you because I love you and I don't want you to die. So you know, I've been giving you healthy eats and people are noticing how good you look. Oh yeah.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:15

What's been your devil of the week this week? Gee whiz, I don't know. Well, if you can't think, I'm going to give you time to think about yours. Yeah, let me think what's yours. I can tell you 90 day fiasco.

Lindsay Oakes: 3:26

Oh my God, that's always a devil for me. Yes, you know what. I'm going to go with you on that and I'm going to tell you why. And then tell me, because I get pissed at myself every time I watch that show.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:35

It's such a great show?

Lindsay Oakes: 3:36

No, because it's not. Because I feel like every time I watch it I'm putting money in these people's pocket and that bothers me so much. But it's such a it's like a train wreck you can't look away.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:44

But it's, that's yeah, but that's it, so yeah. So that's been my devil of the week, because sometimes I sit down there and look at those couples and I'm going to call out. I'm going to call out Jasmine and Gina. If you listen to the show, we'll get you on here. We would love to interview you and talk about it.

Lindsay Oakes: 3:57

No, I would not love to interview them.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:59

Okay, we wouldn't love to interview and talk about your crazy relationship, but that relationship drives me so that shit. Insane, crazy. That is my devil of the week. That is just ah, ah, but I can't. It's like a train wreck. I can't look away.

Lindsay Oakes: 4:13

Yeah, it's terrible. Their relationship is awful. Yeah, no, I can't, it drives me. It drives me bonkers that show. So but yeah, I just I get. I do get annoyed with myself because you put it on and I sit there and I watch and I'm like every time we watch these people make money off of us, which then makes me matter, but then I just can't seem to stop.

Cleveland Oakes: 4:32

So what I'll do is you were watching me play some Baldur's Gate 3 today and you were like, oh, this is the game that everybody's talking about. I think I might like this. Maybe I'll show you how to play it. I probably won't, because if you get into that, I think I'll lose you.

Lindsay Oakes: 4:44

I'll never see you again, I don't think I want to play a video game. I really I don't, really. Sometimes I just don't like to do anything at night, not not play a game, not read a book, not watch anything. I like to sit in the dark. Last week I had a particularly difficult week with work and I think one night you came upstairs and you were like what are you doing? And I was like I'm just sitting in the dark, don't put a light on.

Cleveland Oakes: 5:03

Well, that's good, that's good. That's sometimes how I like to be. But with that, let's segue into this topic, and what I was thinking about with this talk is a topic is coming up on the anniversary. May 1st will be the third anniversary of my father's death. He died unexpectedly of COVID. In the last week I've had a couple of colleagues. Those fathers have died unexpectedly and it made me think about this topic of embracing the inevitable is how do you navigate through grief?

Lindsay Oakes: 5:32

And I also had a loss at work recently too, with a woman that owned one of the companies that I contract to, who had been sick for a very long time and she passed so so.

Cleveland Oakes: 5:42

So, with that, I want to give you guys a warning. This episode might trigger some of you who have had a recent death or or or or might have a sick relative. So if this is one you want to skip, we'll give you time to skip it and you jump ahead. But for those of you who need to listen to this and might need some challenges with dealing with grief, we are here for you and that's what we're going to talk about. So the first thing that I want to talk about is is coping patterns and mechanisms and understanding grief.

Cleveland Oakes: 6:10

I can tell you in my own personal story is that my dad passed away Unexpectedly. He was 84. He got COVID about three years ago and him and my mom got COVID at the same time. My mom was very active. She's fit, she used to go out and walk every day. My dad was very sedentary, he was overweight, big guy. They got COVID at the same time and my mom never had a single symptom. My dad, completely within, was gone in like in one, in one week, and so it was something that really just devastated the family. If you remember, if you, if you recall I do- remember, I remember how Well your family is.

Lindsay Oakes: 6:50

all y'all lived together, so this was a very big impact. Right, your mom had a multifamily home and, you know, like a lot of families, right, they had space for the family to have an apartment or a unit in the home and you know, culturally I think that's what you guys do. And so you had raised your kids there, right, with their grandparents around. Now they weren't all living there at the time because people had moved out and moved on and you didn't live there anymore. But you know his death really impacted them, because it's very different than a death. If your grandparents, you know, like my parents, live in Florida, my children are close with them, but there's a difference of living in the day-to-day life with your grandparents, right, and for you living day-to-day with your parents and really helping them out, then there is, if you don't have that, you know, kind of closeness in proximity to them. So I remember your entire family was devastated.

Cleveland Oakes: 7:42

Yeah, and what is funny about grief is we all have our own ideas about grief and what grief is. I remember my sister and I had a sharp division because I had already accepted that my dad was going to die. And she was like you know well, you got to pray and you got to do this and he's going to die because you don't believe. And she didn't really respect my process and I tried very hard to respect hers, but it was difficult, it was really difficult and for a time that did cause a division in the family, because I had already moved on to practical matters. I realized I was like you know I won't say her name, but I was like sis, he's sick, he's 84 years old, the chances of him coming out of this are inevitable and we can sit and we can pray and we can have faith, and if that's what you need to do that makes you happy, then do that. As for me, I'm moving on to what needs to be done to help mom.

Lindsay Oakes: 8:39

Right, well, and you said moving on to practical matters, so, and again, that's a difference in opinion, right, right, what was practical to you might not have been practical to her. I think that one thing I know about you is that you are very strong and you're very good in times of trauma and tragedy. I know that when I am not doing well mentally or something happens like I know that you're kind of like my strength and pillar and you have emotions, but you know you don't wear them on your sleeve, right. And so I think the difference was how the two of you were processing the situation. Maybe for you there was a little bit of denial of like, well, he was older, right, you'd already made an excuse, he wasn't. Well, it really wasn't that much of a surprise to me, whereas your sister was in the other side, was hanging onto this hope, right, right, yeah.

Cleveland Oakes: 9:31

And, I think, a lot of my family and still. I talked to my brother the other day and he still like grieves my dad. I grieve him and I realize he's gone, but you know I've also learned to let go. That doesn't mean that my brother or my sisters are wrong for their love and still holding on to him. It just means that we've processed that grief differently.

Lindsay Oakes: 9:50

But I think you, you still have grief, because there's times where you say, oh, I miss my dad. But your memories are different, right, they come from your brother and sister, come from a place of like. They're still like, absorbed in the loss, whereas you remember his life in funny things that happened on the day to day, right Things around our house, where you're like, oh man, I wish my dad were alive, because he would tell me how to fix this.

Cleveland Oakes: 10:15

Yeah.

Lindsay Oakes: 10:15

Right, or, oh my God, I remember when my dad used to do that. That's so funny. Now I do it Right, it's things like that. So your, your memories of him are different, like they have this kind of like longing for him and this still this big sadness, and you're having these happy memories of his life and what you learned from him.

Cleveland Oakes: 10:31

Yeah, I've, I've. I've taken what my dad has done and for me, I've taken his life and put it in a positive legacy. For instance, when I sit down with clients, I quote Papa Cleave a lot and some of the things he used to say, which was if you love your wife, you love her children.

Lindsay Oakes: 10:49

Boom that was may he rest in peace. I remember that because I thought, my God, this man is coming and he's raised four kids and I have three kids and like one of them was a lot, one of them was a lot and I remember you came in, just I'm ready. Yeah, I got this, I'm helping.

Cleveland Oakes: 11:06

But that was a lesson right. That's a legacy that I remember from Papa Cleave was that if you love the woman, you love her children also. Another tidbit of information that he used to give them I share with clients who have limiting beliefs is it's a poor frog that doesn't croak about his own pond. And what he meant is like if you do not believe in yourself and if you do not hype yourself up, then no one else is going to hype that person up. That's going to hype you up.

Lindsay Oakes: 11:29

Yeah, you're on you're. You are your own best advocate. I tell people right You're the only one who's going to fully advocate for yourself, so get to know who you are and be comfortable with it. Yeah.

Cleveland Oakes: 11:39

When I, when I think about my dad, I think about the scripture in Ecclesiastes 7 1 that says a good name is better than precious ointment and the day of the death is better than one's birth right. And that offers us a contemplative view of life and death that life that even though death is a finality right, but death is also a release in that it's the end of the story.

Lindsay Oakes: 11:59

Well, it's a finality in some traditions and cultures, but not in others, and we'll get and we'll definitely get to that piece.

Cleveland Oakes: 12:07

Right, but? But when you think about death, we'd always think about the tragic pieces, but there's a completion of life, there's a legacy of impact and oftentimes we go back and we think about with the dead, with least. When I think about my dad, I think about the wisdom and I think about the perspective that he gave me.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:24

Yeah, I mean I've not really lost anyone very close to me in a long time, which is, you know, I've been very fortunate. My grandmother just turned 97.

Cleveland Oakes: 12:32

She still drives and lives alone, and yeah, one of the funniest things we wrote to dinner was like last year and grandma was reflecting on Lindsay's grandmother, was reflecting on her long life. And, lindsay, what did you say to your grandma?

Lindsay Oakes: 12:44

Only the good day young. Only the good day young. To which?

Cleveland Oakes: 12:46

she was like Lindsay's grandma. This is a video podcast, so it was like she was like what? And then she laughed. She laughed itself.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:53

But she's not the nicest person. She's all right, she's, she does. Okay, she's okay, listen, listen, she's not the nicest person and so it was a joke and it probably was like a little semi joke, but we need an.

Cleveland Oakes: 13:04

we need an inheritance. Grandma, you're all right with me?

Lindsay Oakes: 13:07

No, I don't want an inheritance from anybody.

Cleveland Oakes: 13:10

I don't even like that.

Lindsay Oakes: 13:11

You just said that.

Cleveland Oakes: 13:11

I'm just playing. I'm just playing. But let's talk about the stages. Let's talk about the stages of grief. Right, the stages of grief, famously, were first conceptualized by Elizabeth Kubler Ross and her 1969 on book on death and dying, and originally this was intended to describe the stages of grief and terminally ill patients, but then popular culture took it on to like move it on to other people, move it on to other circumstances, and so those stages of grief or denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, and I think when my sister and I were arguing, and you remember the various things with my other family, was when my brother was like let's pray. You know, let's pray. You know that that was the denial, that was the anger and that was the bargaining. And what are your thoughts on that?

Lindsay Oakes: 13:57

Yeah, I mean, it was maybe like a lack of acceptance that this was impending, right. So yeah, I would agree with that. And definitely, I mean, emotions run wild all the time in families, right? Families, members want to do things one way, another way. There's a lot of control factors, there's codependency, there's, you know, manipulation. All these things come into play with families.

Cleveland Oakes: 14:17

So you know there's bound to be some kind of anger and disagreement, and then also the bargaining piece which probably plays off of the anger and then the depression piece is especially us as counselors is something that we see, and how would you talk to somebody who's dealing with depression and relate it to a death?

Lindsay Oakes: 14:35

Well, I think it's important to allow people to grieve, and I don't know if it's necessarily depression right, it's situational and it's allowing people to have the time right to process what happened and to figure out how to move on right. And I always say, just because you feel it, you don't have to fix it Right, so it is okay to have a new normal and a new way of doing things without this person in your life.

Cleveland Oakes: 15:03

Right, right, right. And I think acceptance too. For me, acceptance means that it doesn't necessarily mean being okay with death. It's being okay that there's a new status quo. I think of broth and Bono's nested systems and I think of the chrono system and the way I often describe it in my life. There's a period of time in my life that I was Cleveland son and that was my dad's name same name as me and then there's a period of time when my dad is gone. So there's a period of time before my dad and there's a period of time after my dad and I've come to learn to accept it. I don't like it, but I've learned to accept it. And that's what acceptance of death means to me. What does it mean to you?

Lindsay Oakes: 15:40

You know it's so interesting that you bring this up because recently I was thinking about death and I was. I've done so much work on myself and sorry, I know I hate when there's that in the middle of the episode. I was thinking to myself like you know, what would happen if I lost a parent or my grandmother or a sibling.

Lindsay Oakes: 16:08

And I don't want to say that like I don't want to sound like I don't care, but I wonder, with all the work I've done on myself and how independent I am and how in touch with my feelings I am, I don't know how it would impact me, because I feel that the last time I really like lost somebody close to me was so long ago, like I lost my grandmother, my mom's mom, when I was in college and then my grandfather, my grandmother who's still alive, her husband when I was maybe in like 2001. So that was the last time that I lost someone really close to me and I feel like I've been on this kind of path of evolution and growth. So I don't know what to how to answer that, because I was wondering that myself as I watch my parents age and we go to see them and you know they might be slower than they were a year ago or the last time we saw them, and so I do think about that a lot and I'm like I don't know. I don't know how I would feel.

Cleveland Oakes: 17:01

I don't, I don't know if I would be devastated, I don't know if I would be OK, and I can't say so as I as, as as a therapist and I've been in grad school right now and I've been in me and my fellow therapist A lot of us have come. Especially I had one colleague that that the whole reason for her coming to therapy to come, her journey as a council began because it was her way of accepting the fact that her husband died. Right it was. It was the way that she, she came to accept it.

Cleveland Oakes: 17:32

So accepting it doesn't mean like, wow, this person's dead, yeah, I've gone on with my life. It's understanding that the world is now a new normal. I know that's something that folks said with covid and I got my own opinions about covid and the ba ba, ba new normal. But really death is a new normal. Now you have to go on without your husband or without your wife, or without your dad or without your God forbid without your child, and it is hard to accept. But acceptance means that you've learned to now go on without that person.

Lindsay Oakes: 18:02

Well, it doesn't mean that you're over the loss or that you don't think about the person, right, but you've just adjusted to a different reality, right, right, and it's hard, right, and it's hard to adjust to a different reality.

Cleveland Oakes: 18:11

And and to Lindsay, to your point, I had a colleague the other day that his dad just died. His dad was 91. And even though he knew that his dad was slowing down and his dad was getting you know, you know was nearing the end of his life, it still is hard to accept that life without his father. He had the benefit of his father. I think this gentleman is maybe about 45, 46 years old, and so he had the benefit of his dad for 46 years.

Lindsay Oakes: 18:37

And so you can imagine that is hard to accept, absolutely Right, because it's like one minute everything is normal, right, or in your normal, and then the next thing, next moment, that person is gone, right. So what do you do with that? Right, and even with your father, right, his death was pretty quick. It was just a couple of weeks, I think, from the time that he got sick until he passed, right, and he got progressively worse. So, yeah, there's a shock that comes with it when the person is well and all the other sudden is gone. So I think definitely there's a shock, right. And then that's that affects how you would grieve, right, Because if it's completely unexpected, right, I mean it's. You know, grief is interesting because it's it's. I think it depends on who the person was and what your relationship was to them, right, and then what the you know, how how close were you to that person? How often were you with that person? Right, because death is different for someone If you didn't know them that well.

Cleveland Oakes: 19:29

Right, versus the person If it was somebody that you saw regularly right, right, and so let's move on to our next topic, and which is these two topics going to be tied. So it's navigating an expected death and navigating an unexpected death. So let's start with navigating an expected death. So, whether it is due to a terminal illness or advanced age, it is still a profoundly emotional and challenging experience, and it involves not only preparing for the practical aspects of that impending loss, but also coping with the emotional, the psychological and, oftentimes, spiritual dimensions. Right, and so, once again, one of the things that we talk about when expecting, when an expected death, communication is important, right? And, lindsay, how do you think that open communication would benefit families or couples that have an expected death? That's coming.

Lindsay Oakes: 20:18

Well, I think, with an expected death, you can almost plan in advance for it, right, and the person who is dying, right, or who's ill and is expected to you know, you know, leave this realm is able to maybe tell you how they want things to move forward without them, right, which is a different. That's the end if you're experiencing a sudden death. So I think that's a part of it, right, and so people have the opportunity to really kind of, you know, clear the air, so to speak, right, and then they can openly communicate with the person who they're going to lose and almost set things up ahead of time.

Cleveland Oakes: 20:55

Yes, yes. I think some of the struggles that we have as families about death, especially expected death, is that we don't want to have these conversations. I can think about my own parents before they died. They didn't want to put any of their affairs in the order. They were very resistant to writing wills. I can think about our friends that we used to live with over in country club that their parents are the same way that they're in their nineties and they're very resistant to it. But open communication means that you are hey, let's sit down and let's have a real conversation about the expectations about the end of your life. And I think one of the things I appreciate about your mom and dad is they have said we are not. What do they have? What are your folks?

Lindsay Oakes: 21:31

Yeah, they're there, my mother said their affairs are all in order. My father does not want a mess when they go. He does not want challenges for people. He doesn't want them to have to sort through you know 80 years or 100 years of belongings. Everything is cleaned out and listed of where it's going to go and who it's for. And yeah, it's interesting because I do. I've watched my parents over the past couple of years and I don't think it really hit me until I realized, like my oldest is 19, almost 20, my God. And when he was born, right, my dad was 55. That's like five years older than you, right? And it's like shit, like now it's like I've watched my dad age over all these years, right, and you know so. Now it's like it's so hard to believe.

Cleveland Oakes: 22:18

Yeah, yeah, and that's, and that's it. That's an important part when the death is expected is to make practical preparations Attentive attend to a will, attend to a financial planning, think about funeral agents. I know when you're alive or when you're well, it's not. You know these are things that we don't want to think about, or even when a person's health is declining. But making practical preparations will help you manage that expected death better. I want to talk about seeking support and I want to talk about about self care. I know recently you had a friend whose uncle was dying and that person sat vigil like from morning till evening for weeks every day and I want to get your your thoughts on that.

Lindsay Oakes: 23:01

I don't think it's healthy, right. I don't think it's healthy to be that absorbed in it. I think it's okay to go on and do things in your daily life, right, because sitting there, I think, just makes you feel worse.

Cleveland Oakes: 23:13

Right.

Lindsay Oakes: 23:13

You're just watching that person in constant decline every time a machine beeps, you're, you know, I imagine your nervous system is so activated, right and so, yes, and so you know, while I understand every it's, it's different. I think too it depends on who the person is, and you know, in her culture, I think they're very close with family. So it's, you know, that was what they did. But personally, me, I don't know that I would do that yeah.

Cleveland Oakes: 23:40

And I think it's important in that case and I know a lot of us, especially in in in cultures that are black, brown and yellow that we don't seek support right. We think we can do everything on our own and we try to. We try to be atlas holding up the world, but it's crucial in these circumstances that you lean on support, that you go to grief counseling, that you lean on family, friends and support groups and, and more importantly, self-care, especially for a caregiver of a loved one. Self-care is essential during a taxing time. Lindsey, tell us about self-care.

Lindsay Oakes: 24:12

Well, everybody needs self-care. But during those times, especially right, allowing people to do things for you, allowing people to be there for you Right, just being able to take care of yourself, making sure you're sleeping, you're eating, you're surrounded by supportive people Right. And because I think it's easy when things are difficult, right. Especially because people are very you know, a lot of people are not so open with their emotions, so I think it's easy to go into this place of avoiding and isolating.

Cleveland Oakes: 24:43

Right, and that's important.

Cleveland Oakes: 24:45

And before we move on to the next point, I want to talk about acknowledging grief, right, oftentimes, us as men, and us as black men and us as people in color we and I had a whole conversation with my son about it the other day there's this belief that, oh, you know, we're supposed to just be strong and we're supposed to. But recognizing and I can think about this in my own case, where I cried about my dad and I did cry over him but recognizing that grief can begin before the loss occurs, is called anticipatory grief and it's important that these, to acknowledge that these feelings are normal and to allow oneself to experience them as part of this part of the important coping process, right, I remember one time I sat down with somebody and they actually felt guilty because they felt relieved that their parent died and I had to sit down and talk to him was like, dude, there's nothing wrong with you feeling guilty. It was like that's their free and there's, and that relief is gone. I've acknowledged your grief, but now they're free and you're unburdened.

Lindsay Oakes: 25:46

So right, and it's it's. Also, I have a client who cares for her ailing mother and it's a lot right. I mean, essentially she's given up her entire life to care for her mother, so I don't think she even knows what she would do if she didn't have that right now, right. So it's like you lose a little bit of yourself in that person and I imagine that in that kind of situation, when your parent can't toilet independently and has all of these ailments and, you know, has you up all night and doesn't remember who you are, right, like, I imagine there is some kind of relief in being like oh, that was really hard.

Cleveland Oakes: 26:26

And so the last piece on this is fostering acceptance, which is to you know, understand that, while the death is impending and the loss is just to accept it, right. This invokes acknowledging the reality of the situation right, expressing feelings openly and cherishing the time that remains. And then you know, for my colleague, that their father just passed away. One of the questions that you asked me, and you always ask me this is is there a legacy project that that person was working on? Is there something that we can donate in their name? And so, lindsay, let's I want you to address that piece. What is a legacy project or what is something that you can do to cherish somebody's memory that has passed away?

Lindsay Oakes: 27:06

I think what we were saying was yesterday. I think I was asking you about this because you said I would like to send something and I said, well, maybe because he died suddenly. Right, they'd found out he had cancer or something and he died suddenly. Is that maybe they're accepting donations in his name to cancer research or something like that, right? Other things that you can do for people are I'm a very big believer in not asking people what they need because they're going to say nothing.

Cleveland Oakes: 27:35

Right right.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:36

And so typically what I do is I just ask someone will you be home today at this time? And if they say yes, I say, okay, great, we'll be bringing dinner over, right. And we did that for my friend when her mom was very sick. I kept asking do you need anything? No, no, no, no, no. And she lived so close to us. And then finally, I just said are you going to be home? What time will you be home tonight? And she told me and I said, great, I'll be over with dinner. And we brought enough dinner to get them through the weekend.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:59

And she said that was just such a gesture. She said I didn't have to cook, I didn't have to clean dishes. She said and that was just such a relief because I was able to go see my mom get my daughter and not have to worry about that at night, I could just sit down and do what I had to do. So it's just, you know, doing things with people from a kind and generous place, without asking them if you can do it, just kind of letting them know this is what's happening today, yeah, so so.

Cleveland Oakes: 28:26

So, moving on, we're going to jump on to our next topic, which is navigating unexpected death, right? So, unlike an expected death, unexpected deaths where there may be time to prepare, and emotionally Anonik, let me go back. Unlike an expected death, unexpected death does not allow you time to emotionally prepare, and I've had a couple of those oh more, he would like to admit in my life of unexpected deaths, at least four or five, and it's hard. But I think for the most important piece of an unexpected death is to take the time to acknowledge the shock and the grief. Lindsay, what do you think about that?

Lindsay Oakes: 29:04

No, I agree with you. I think you know, in those moments you really do have to take time and really be kind to yourself and allow yourself to feel all the things that you're feeling, allow yourself to cry, you know, don't go back to work so quickly. And you know, know that it's okay to feel pissed off. You know, one moment to be laughing, the next and to be sad and crying. Right, all of these things are how we progress through situations and you know, when someone's life is just taken so quickly and we don't expect it right, I mean it's just like a really it's like a jolt to the nervous system.

Cleveland Oakes: 29:38

Yeah, I always tell my clients you're allowed to feel all the feels and it's okay to acknowledge the shock and you don't have to fix them.

Lindsay Oakes: 29:44

That's what I say. You could feel them all, but just because you feel it doesn't mean you need to fix something. It is okay to feel.

Cleveland Oakes: 29:50

Yeah, in my own experience with my sister who's a police officer, and my mom and folks is even three, four years later. I tell them it's okay to seek professional help, it's okay to get support, and what do you think about that?

Lindsay Oakes: 30:04

I absolutely agree. I think your mom had been crying and it had been like six months, and somebody said something like oh, she's crying again. I said she had 50 years with that man. Right, you don't lose 50 years of memories and good times, right? They don't just go away in six months, right? I mean, I've only known you for eight years, but I think like I couldn't imagine my life without you. Right, I would be very sad if something happened to you. And so you know, we have to feel all those things and know that it's okay. And it's okay if you feel it today and then tomorrow you're okay, and then the next day you're not again, that's okay too. That's all normal.

Cleveland Oakes: 30:43

And that makes me think right. So one of the things that people think about the stages of grief is they think that it runs in a chronological or sequential order. It does not. Kubler-russ said it absolutely does not. Also, allowing yourself time to grieve does not run in a sequential order. Grief does not have a timeline and because a sudden loss is unexpected, it often is prolonged grief. When I sit down with a client who's gone through a sudden loss, or I sit down with a friend who's gone through a sudden loss, I describe it as you're in the middle of a good book and now you got to chapter five and of a 10 page book, and pages in chapters six through 10 are ripped out. What do you think about that?

Cleveland Oakes: 31:25

Yeah, it's the unexpected right, so you have to allow yourself time to grieve right.

Lindsay Oakes: 31:31

Yes, and you don't know how you're going to feel from one day to the next, right, hence I'm saying the unexpected right, one day you're okay, the next day you're not. Oh, chapter six is missing. But here's chapter seven. Right, you don't know, and it's okay to be like that and it is okay to.

Lindsay Oakes: 31:45

I had once had a friend of mine not a client, a friend was in the grocery store. This was recent. Her sister's been very, very ill with cancer and it's just gotten progressively worse and it's, you know, very a lot of emotions for her and also her parents are elderly, so she's caring, you know, going to have to become their caretakers, where that was her sister's role. And she texted me and she said I'm standing in the middle of the grocery store and I'm crying and I don't know what to do. And I said you leave the cart and the nearest person you see you say I had an emergency, I have to go, I'm sorry. And you leave your cart there and you go, I said, and then you go, sit in the car and you cry, and if you could come back and get your groceries, you get them or you go and buy some takeout food and you try again the next day. But it's OK to feel that way and you can tell people I had an emergency. I have to go.

Cleveland Oakes: 32:32

Yeah, and that moves us on forward to our. That's a natural segue to our next piece, which is healing and moving forward after a death. Right, healing and moving forward after death of a loved one is a deeply personal process that's marked by a complex range of emotions and adjustments. While the pain of loss may never completely disappear, finding ways to cope and gradually reintegrate aspects of joy and purpose in your life is possible, and number one way of doing that is, as you just said, is acknowledging grief.

Lindsay Oakes: 33:01

Well, that goes for a lot of things that go on with people, I say with anxiety, with depression, with grief. If you say it out loud to somebody else, it's now out in the open, right? So you don't have to keep it in and keep all the feelings in. And that was exactly why I said that to her. I said, like it is OK to cry at the grocery store. I said you're probably never going to see those people again and your sister just gave you some really horrible news. So you just go and you don't even need to say I'm sorry. You just say I had an emergency, I have to go and that's it right. But feel all the things Sit in them, right, and then it's OK if it takes time.

Cleveland Oakes: 33:39

And remember that acknowledging grief there's this idea that, oh, a person's supposed to be sad and this person's supposed to be down but acknowledging grief, remember it can manifest in numerous ways. This can be sadness, this can be anger and, like I even said, it can be relief. It could be like, wow, that person's dead, and sometimes that might be. I always think about 9-11. And I always think about couples that I see and I'm like how many of those couples that they're spouse or that person in their family is gone and they're like, holy shit, woo. And even though that might be a weird way to think about death, that is a legitimate reaction that some people have is relief, and it might and it seems so odd to think about, but it's something I know I'm not going to get into, but I think it's something that to sit on and pause and think about.

Lindsay Oakes: 34:27

Yeah, I agree, I agree, and it's interesting the way that you said how different people handle things differently, because then that kind of flows into the cultural perspectives on death that you and I had talked about recently, and how different cultures deal with and grieve in different ways.

Cleveland Oakes: 34:44

Right, right. And before we get on to that piece because I definitely do want to jump, because you have a great story that you're going to share is I just wanted to think just on this piece. Before we move on, is you have to peel on your personal timeline. Somebody I know who suffered a loss at the same time as my dad died made the comment to me that grief is a chronic condition, and understanding that healing operates on its own timeline and that healing is different for everyone is important. There is no set schedule of when you should be over a loss and you have to accept that your grief can resurface at any time. It could resurface in a week. It could resurface in five weeks. It could resurface in five decades, lindsay.

Lindsay Oakes: 35:29

I agree 100%, and that is OK. There is no timeline, there is no set schedule for when you're not going to feel upset anymore or where you're going to change a perspective on it or when you're going to make a shift emotionally.

Cleveland Oakes: 35:44

As our expert on mindfulness, Lindsay, I want you to tell me about the self-care piece of taking care of yourself after a death.

Lindsay Oakes: 35:51

Well, people need to take care of themselves all the time, but even more so when you're going through a really vulnerable time and that's just being able to sit there to feel, to reach out to people, look for support, but just be kind to yourself.

Cleveland Oakes: 36:10

One of the things that folks don't do after death especially sometimes it's hard for them after the death of a child or a death of a spouse or a death of a loved one is they do not give them permission themselves, permission to feel happy, and oftentimes somebody's like oh, I found somebody else that I love or I found something else that I enjoy, and they feel guilty as if they're betraying the person that is gone. But enjoying life again is not a betrayal but is a testament to the strength of the human spirit that you can find light after darkness. What do you think? Lent?

Lindsay Oakes: 36:43

I agree and I think that's very true because I think, if something happened to me, I would like you to go on and enjoy life and still do the things that you enjoy doing.

Cleveland Oakes: 36:51

No one beats you, baby.

Lindsay Oakes: 36:53

Aw, you're so kind.

Cleveland Oakes: 36:56

And that means reinvesting in life right, which is gradually consider new activities, new relationships or goals that can bring you back to a sense of purpose in your life. And this is not about replacing that person, but finding loss, but finding ways to fill that void in your life that are healthy.

Lindsay Oakes: 37:15

And I do want to touch on briefly also just support groups. When I have clients that have cancer or have a parent with an illness, or I always suggest that they find a support group right, because, yes, therapy is great, but I, as a therapist, cannot relate directly to every experience you have or every medical emergency that occurs in your life. Yes, I can understand because I've been in a relationship. Right, I've been in a failed relationship. I've been in a successful relationship, I've been. You know, I've had things happen in my life that have impacted me, but I have never cared for an ailing parent like that and lived with them. Right, I have never lost somebody tragically, I haven't had cancer or lost a close relative to cancer. So you have to find a group of people who can really relate to your experiences, that can be there for you, that can answer your questions without judgment.

Cleveland Oakes: 38:13

Yes. So, seeking support, Surround yourself with a set of supporting network of friends, family or support groups that can provide comfort and understanding, share memories and emotions with others who have experienced similar losses, so that you can be particularly therapeutic. As I go on, you know, I always tell folks everyone ends up an orphan, and the way I've gone on to honor my dad is to support folks that have, because we're getting to this age, unfortunately when you're 40s, you're 50s, you're 60s, even your 30s that we're starting to lose our parents. I mean, it happens right and it's for me. When I come across somebody who's just lost a parent, I actually try to be there as a helping ear and a lending ear and I just sit there and listen. I don't offer advice and I just offer this support.

Cleveland Oakes: 39:01

This is going to move on to our last topic, which is the cultural differences in death, and it's just so interesting that some of these cultural differences I think here in the West, death is to be dreaded, it's something that we're scared of and it's something like that's ooh, the boogie man. But I think, lindsay, you recently had an experience at an African funeral that was like that just blew your mind, and can we just touch on that a little bit Absolutely.

Lindsay Oakes: 39:27

So I went to a wake of viewing for the woman I was talking about earlier who passed, that owns one of the companies that I contract to, and just such a lovely woman. She's from Nigeria. She has six children. Her children are spread out around the world I think one here, someone in Canada, some in England, some still in Africa, lots of grandchildren. And she was ill for a long time.

Lindsay Oakes: 39:57

She ended up passing away on January 3. And the office sent around her a little flier for her services and so it said at the top of it celebrating a life well lived. And so they had a viewing, which was not a traditional wake that I'm accustomed to, but it was called a service of songs and it was a color coding of what you should wear, which was purple. And then the following day, for her funeral service, it was a color of navy blue, and then they had a big joyous reception after the funeral. And so I went with some colleagues to the viewing, and it was from 4 to 8 PM and we grabbed dinner first and then we went over and when we were on our way someone else from the office said aren't you coming? This is almost over. And so I didn't realize that it was not like a typical viewing where you come in and you pay your respects to the family, but it was like a four hour party in the funeral home and so Sounds like an.

Lindsay Oakes: 41:02

Irish wake. So I went and everybody was dressed to the nines in such beautiful African attire, right With the head wraps and in the color coding. They gave out snacks. When we walked in and there were live music and people were singing and dancing and like not one person in there was crying no one. And I thought, wow, this is so beautiful and so different than anything I have ever been to in my life.

Cleveland Oakes: 41:29

It's interesting because in Judaism, indigenous African religions and the majority in New Zealand, they all view death as a significant part of life and all of them view death as a transition. And then listen, if you are atheist or whatever, we respect your points of view, but this is just the cultural piece. But as a friend of mine we saw Dave, as we saw it yesterday he's like thank God, I am a person with faith and that I believe the things I believe because it gives him comfort, right, and so if you're somebody who doesn't believe in this and you don't believe in the afterlife, there's 100% fine. The Bible does say the dead are conscious of nothing. I don't know what happens, but I promise you all, if I die and there's a way back, I'm gonna let you know that I'm all right, I don't think there's a way back, but if there is I'll let you know.

Lindsay Oakes: 42:19

Well, and you know it's so interesting. Right To look at how different cultures. Right, instead of standing there and crying, everyone celebrated this woman who was so joyful and so happy and who would do anything to have your back. Right, and I thought, wow, like what a lovely celebration of somebody. Why cry when you can be singing and dancing and spending time with people that you love? Right, celebrating a life well lived.

Cleveland Oakes: 42:44

Yeah, one of the things I don't wanna close on is the. In the Bible it says that the day of one's death is far better than the day of one's birth, and I wanna just touch on that piece before we continue. So I know I referenced the scripture earlier, but this is from Ecclesiastes 671, that the day of death is better than the day of one's birth. And interpreting this verse requires considering the broader themes and the philosophical reflections that are presented in the book of Ecclesiastes. And that whole book and that's a topic for another day is about the exploration and the meaning of life and the transient nature of human endeavors.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:19

One of the things King Solomon talks about in the book of Ecclesiastes that life is like striving after the wind, that it's all vanity. I like to say a friend of mine told me I curse too much in the podcast, but fuck it. In other words, it's bullshit. Right that a lot of the things that we go through in life are bullshit and Ecclesiastes talks about that. But what's interesting, when Solomon talks about the day of one's death is far better than the day of one's birth is because it means that you've made a legacy. And we talk about those things in mental health as ego despair.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:48

And ego integrity and ego despair is when you live your life and you haven't done shit with it and you're like fuck, I'm 80 years old and it's like, oh my God, I'm scared to die because I haven't done anything. Ego integrity, on the other hand, is when Barbara Bush died and she was like 93 years old, she was like I've done it, I'm ready to go, I've accomplished it all to give me my reward. And so, to me, the day of one's death means that it is complete, it is accomplished and, hopefully, you lived a good life. I'm gonna close and then I'll let Lindsey close on her point.

Cleveland Oakes: 44:20

When I was studying management, I think the guy who owned Son Glass' Hut decided to sell the business, and when he was asked why he sold the business because he said he wanted his tombstone to read. This man was a good father, a good husband and a good grandfather and he did not want his tombstone to read. This guy owned Son Glass' Hut. And I think, when you think about ego integrity and ego despair, that the day of one's death being better than the day of one's birth means that you have done out, you have set out, you have accomplished and you are free to move on to the next plane. But, lindsey, I think you had a point about the Bhagavad Gita.

Lindsay Oakes: 44:54

I do. But I also just you saying that actually reminded me remember when we went to the Key West Cemetery how they had all of the epitaphs like said something that the person had said during their life and it was very, very interesting. So you just saying that about what he wanted his tombstone to read was really very interesting because I think in Key West they were like I told her I was sick, it was on the tombstone. That was one of the funny ones and things like that. So, yeah, very interesting.

Lindsay Oakes: 45:22

But after having been to Miss Betty's service and hearing you talk about death and you and I have talked this week about the different celebrations of death, even in your religion, growing up and what I've experienced, and then seeing this, it made me because I'm really into, you know Hindu and Buddhist principles and I read a lot of those texts it made me explore what do like, what would the Bhagavad Gita right, the Hindu scripture, say about death? And it's a lot of what Dharma Mitra would also say that the physical body right is not permanent, the soul is permanent. So when you leave the physical plane right, your body goes, but then your soul goes on to be reborn right, yeah, yeah, I think that's a really important piece, a really important piece.

Cleveland Oakes: 46:12

So, as we wrap Lindsey, any closing comments about grief or dealing with death or what would you success for clients that are dealing with it?

Lindsay Oakes: 46:20

I think everybody's process is different and you know, be sensitive to people that are going through a loss or experiencing a loss and it comes to a lot of the things that we've talked about in relationships, right, except it doesn't have to be an intimate relationships is just being able to support someone and be understanding and really listen to them during their time of need.

Cleveland Oakes: 46:41

Yeah, and some resources that we can. As we close, I want to just give folks a list of resources that they can follow up on as a part of this discussion and they'll be listed in the show notes. And they'll be listed in the show notes, but one book that I can think about. The two books I want to just mention by name are the Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion. It's a memoir that involves her experience in losing her husband unexpectedly and when Breath Becomes Air, and that's also a good one. But, with that being said, as therapists, we would both recommend that you go out and get professional help grief counseling, support groups. This is not a journey that you can navigate on your own, but it is one that you need plenty of support, plenty of support and plenty of friends to help you navigate the journey, lindsay. Any last point?

Lindsay Oakes: 47:31

No, I think you covered it.

Cleveland Oakes: 47:32

And this has been another episode of the Devil you Don't Know. Please rate and review us on iTunes or any platform that you are on, and if you have any questions or want to be on the show or have anything that you want us to address, email us at gettonowthedevil at gmailcom. Let's get started.