Celebrating a milestone birthday for our dear friend Dafne, we couldn't help but marvel at the intricacies woven into the tapestry of adult friendships. We raise a glass to the connections that sustain us through the rollercoaster of life.
Dafne's 50th bash echoes the significance of inclusivity and sets the stage for us to unpack the highs and lows of nurturing relationships beyond our formative years. From the spontaneous bonds of childhood to the intentional ones of adulthood, we share insights and personal tales that will have you nodding along and examining your social circles.
Recommended Books
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Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Celebrating a milestone birthday for our dear friend Dafne, we couldn't help but marvel at the intricacies woven into the tapestry of adult friendships. We raise a glass to the connections that sustain us through the rollercoaster of life.
Dafne's 50th bash echoes the significance of inclusivity and sets the stage for us to unpack the highs and lows of nurturing relationships beyond our formative years. From the spontaneous bonds of childhood to the intentional ones of adulthood, we share insights and personal tales that will have you nodding along and examining your social circles.
Recommended Books
Recommended Articles
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today? Friendship, friendship, navigating friends as adults. This was a topic that I that we came up with just the other day because we went out to our friend Daphne's birthday party. It was her big 50th Happy birthday.
Cleveland Oakes:Daphne is one of our biggest fans of the show and she and one of my best friends and another one of Lindsay's best friends and during the toast segment it was really interesting to hear everyone talk about meeting Daphne, because Daphne is one of those people, lindsay. That I would like to say as a multiplier.
Lindsay Oakes:She just loves friends and she will do anything for anybody Right. She's kind to everyone. Her friendship knows no boundaries. She is never I don't think I've ever heard her say anything mean about anybody.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I remember a few years ago a great experience that I had with Daphne as we went to her. The remember the neighbors had a barbecue across the street and they invited us over and Daphne just happened to be hanging out. And Daphne, like, instantly made friends with everyone there and, if I recall right, she got us invited to a baby shower.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, definitely so. She and I have worked out together. We've done boxing classes together. We have just had a lot of fun together over the years. I met her when my oldest was in kindergarten we had just moved and when he was going to kindergarten, daphne's daughter was turning five and she called the school in the summer and got the list of all the kids in the class so she could have a party and everyone could meet before their kids went to kindergarten. Wow, so that was how I met her. She had just moved up to New York as well, and that was how I met her and we became friends pretty much immediately after that.
Cleveland Oakes:And what was amazing is when everyone raised a glass and toasted to her. It was all to friendship and I know there was one gentleman there that said he was new to New York, didn't know anybody and Daphne has been his near and dear friend.
Lindsay Oakes:She also married us.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, and she also she was the officiant at our very tiny Saturday night wedding five years ago, five years ago, and so this one is dedicated to Daphne, and it's about making friends as an adult, which is real challenge, and so I'm going to call this one for her not for her, but for some of you folks, it is right, and so we're calling this one beyond the playground, navigating adult friendships. But before we get into that, let's talk about our usual stuff, which is, lindsay, what was something interesting that you ate this week?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, I went out on Friday because you were working late and I went again to our cheese tap and table, my you know fave place in the neighborhood, and the plant based special of the week was lentil butternut squash tacos. It was so good. Wow, sounds delicious. It was topped with greens and like pickled radishes and onions. You really would have loved it but you were working.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I was working in. My devil of the week was that it's been a long time since I actually had to stay late at work, so it was a little bit disconcerting and challenging. But I had a big project that was due and, honestly, it worked out for the best that I stayed, because it turned into like a real cluster and I had to really test my patience. I'm somebody who is typically kind, typically patient, but I had a moment where it was like about 530 on a Friday night and everybody was long home and I was looking at four more hours in the office and I just had a moment where I like spazzed out over a miscommunication with somebody. But we got it, we got it resolved, but everyone was. But since I have this reputation for being patient, it actually made everyone laugh that I spazzed out. And what did you eat this week? Something interesting I ate this week. We went to bowdye this this morning and I really love bowdye.
Lindsay Oakes:Don't talk too loud the kid doesn't know. We went.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, that's right. The Queen mom doesn't know we meant, but when she listens to this episode we'll be busted. But we went to bowdye, which is bowdye kosher village in, was it? Where's it at?
Lindsay Oakes:college point bowdye village. It's a kosher vegetarian restaurant.
Cleveland Oakes:Look at me making up names, yes, but at least they got it's in college, point. Flushing, flushing. I don't even know where I'm going, I just know it's in Queens. The food is amazing. We have the dim sum, we have vegan dim sum. Oh, it's so good to die for. So good, so good. So we had some vegan dim sum and that was good. So you know, with all of that being said, let's just jump straight into this.
Lindsay Oakes:So, so, lindsay, lindsay didn't have a devil of the week, I guess.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, did you Well, go ahead, let's say what is it?
Lindsay Oakes:I'm sorry, I'm just really eager.
Cleveland Oakes:We had all that great talk about Daphne, so I'm really just eager to jump into it no, no. But what was your devil of the week Work? Tell me about it.
Lindsay Oakes:No, I'm just burnt out. I told you like I feel, like I'm tired every day. I can't catch up on sleep. I have so many things going on and I never say no at work. I'm great at saying no to things, I'm great at having boundaries, but when I never say no to more work because I love money and I like to do things. So this week I had to ask them to cut back on the amount of work they're giving me, which was really difficult, but I had to take a little break because it's too much. I have so much that I need to do and no time to do it, and so, once again, it's finding that balance, and this week it was. I have to shut down a little bit of the work.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, sometimes we have to be our own best friend and know that something's just too much.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah definitely that was me this week. I'm still tired now.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but you're doing it. You're doing it. We had a productive day. We went out and got a wine fridge. We're grown ups now.
Lindsay Oakes:And I made a list of all the things that we need a handyman for in the house, and you don't want to see it because that'll be your devil of the week.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh no, I see how long it is. Listen, as long as I am not the handyman that is doing it, as long as it's not my honey do list, we will call Sunny, If you were it would be a lot cheaper.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, it would, but I don't think you can fix some of these things.
Cleveland Oakes:No, no, but Sunny is the handyman of choice. But let's just jump right into this topic, and the first thing I'm going to talk about is the friendship paradox, and that's a little something that I made up, because it's this idea about adult friendships that we live in this world that were more connected than ever before through social media, but many adults have found it challenging to form and keep meaningful friendships, and so I wanted to talk to you about some of the psychological and societal factors that contribute to this friendship paradox.
Lindsay Oakes:This is a huge struggle for me. I'm very introverted and it's very hard for me to meet people. I always say my circle is small, but I'm just not good at navigating new relationships.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, when we go out, you were always. Last night I thought was a great example that you were bonding with folks. We actually met reconnected with a friend that wanted to hang out immediately today and we're like no, but I know them already.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, right, and I think that was what the point of last night was when you have really good, true friends, even if you haven't seen them right in six months, a year, when you come back together, it's like no time has passed, right right, that's.
Cleveland Oakes:That's the really good thing about, about real and lasting friends. One of the things and I want to ask you about this about making friends on social media. So I remember when Facebook was huge and it's not as huge as it was I think the kids have moved on to other things but I remember, maybe about 10 years ago, when it was at its at its height, you would go to somebody and they have like 800 900 friends. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think that's more of like you graduated with these people, you went to college with these people. I don't necessarily think that they're all friends, right, they're acquaintances, neighbors. We have a lot of our neighbors on Facebook who I wouldn't necessarily call friends. We know each other, we say hello, but we don't spend time with each other outside of you know a quick wave when we go by.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, and it makes me think that social media is a superficial interaction and it promotes, like, quantity over quality. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I think so. I don't spend a lot of time on social media, but the acquaintance factor doesn't bother me. What I think is the struggle for me is watching everyone post about how fabulous their life is. And that's what I'm like, you know. Okay, it's amazing. So your kid must never have done any of the things that my kid did and that I don't. I wish they didn't do.
Cleveland Oakes:And that leads me to the next, to the next point with that, social media often leads to comparison and envy. What my oldest, what our oldest son, likes to say. He used to have a bunch of social media profiles and then one day he came to me and was like dad, I'm getting off of everything. And I asked him why? And he was like because I'm not a celebrity and I'm not here to curate my life. And what do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I think it's. You know, it's like a lot of keeping up, right. So it's keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. Right, and that's. He did it because he was just tired of seeing all this stuff and how much stuff gets like washed into your feed that you don't even ask for. Instagram is a perfect example.
Lindsay Oakes:If I look at one vegan influencer I have, you know, I'll scroll through and, funnily enough, the one that I like the most never shows up anymore because they're trying to show me 500 new ones that I haven't seen before, and then I have to go and try to remember who it was that I actually wanted to see, right. So there's also a lot of forced connections, right. The other thing I find strange is when a friend of a friend starts to try to, like you know, connect with you, right, and I had this recently with a friend of mine texted me and asked me if someone was my friend and, by the way, different states, no connection, because I know them from two different realms but this person tried to friend a friend of mine that lives in Alabama and she was like I'm just not going to accept it and I was like, totally fine, I wouldn't either.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, because it's weird, right, it's, and that's, I think, what you're saying. With the quantity, right, because there's no connection between these people.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, you touched on like three things that I wanted to talk about, which is comparison and envy, overwhelming, time management and then, in that case of friends reaching out to friends, like privacy concerns, um, uh, one of the things that I think is is and I had a young client that we sat down and he was talking about uh, he called it the Riz, uh, that they were. They were him and his buddies were looking at a video of a young man. He was like that guy has the Riz, and I was like what is the Riz? And they were. He meant charisma and and I was like that's young people speak.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's young people speak. And I was like why does he have a charisma? Well, look at him, he's outside in the world, like, so wait, so. So, because this guy is outside in the world and doing things, that gives him charisma, right. So which makes me think that when you have these friendships that are based primarily online, there's a lot of comparison and envy, because people only showing the best parts of their life, there's a lot of overwhelming, and this young man struggles with that, right, I think we have a friend, um, that we know in real life that spends a lot of time posting online and you always talk about that.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, definitely. I don't think that we need to know everything about everybody's life. Right, there's the privacy part. You know, post something every now and then, but I don't need to know where everybody is every minute of every day. Right, I don't need to see pictures of kids and grandkids and everything that they do Pictures, pictures, pictures, pictures, and we're like that. I have a filter where I, or a setting where, if someone wants to tag me in something, I have to accept it, which is the greatest thing, because then people can just tag me and I never accept it. Yeah, me, neither.
Lindsay Oakes:I think I'll put you under that you did, because I don't want people to know where I am all the time. I have enough people bothering me at work and you know I have clients reaching out all the time that my private time is my private time. I don't want to be bothered when I'm not working and I don't want people to know where I am all the time. Sometimes, because I don't want them to know. The place exists, because I like it a lot and I don't want it to be busier, but just other times because I don't think everyone needs to know everything. We grew up in a time where we didn't have access like this and our kids always think it's so funny that if your mom and dad needed you at school they called the office and remember they would paid you over the intercom to come to the office.
Cleveland Oakes:Cleveland Oaks. Come to the office Right.
Lindsay Oakes:And now, when the youngest one comes home from school, it's actually funny. She told me this week they have to put their phones in a pouch in some of the classes. And she was telling me about the teacher is sitting there and it's an all girls school, right? So the teacher is sitting in her chair on her phone, not even looking at the girls, and going all right, girls, put your phones in the pouches. And she's on the phone. And so the little one is telling me she's like mom, that's just ridiculous, right? I mean, she's telling us to put the phone in the pouch, but she's on the phone, and then she's put. You know, during class she'll say to them oh, hold on, and she'll like get a message.
Cleveland Oakes:And that makes me think of this idea and it's something that used to get on me about is like so when you have friends online and you have friends in the real world, who should you be spending the majority of your time with? Like, where are you really getting and I want to get your thoughts when are you really getting those quality interactions at when you're texting or when you're talking to someone in person?
Lindsay Oakes:I think when you, I think in person interactions are always better quality interactions, because I always say when we text with everybody, you can't really read the tone, the mood, things like that. Texting can come across one way and a person intended it to come across a totally different way. Yeah, I think you sat down.
Cleveland Oakes:This is something that you had to teach me when we began our friendship which is because lovers should be friends is hey, don't have an important conversation with me over text. I think you sat down and talked about that with a couple you still try.
Cleveland Oakes:But yeah, I want to get your opinion on that Cause I think you had a couple that you saw a couple of weeks ago that you gave them some advice on, on maintaining their friendship as a couple, and then they hung up from the session and immediately engaged via text, and that was a problem for both of them, then.
Lindsay Oakes:Because when emotions are high, it is never a good time to have clear and positive communication. Right, if you're, you know, nervous system is activated. If you're really hyper vigilant about something or you're really triggered about something, it is better for you to take a step back, pause, feel all the feels and then come in for communication, and if it can't be face to face, then a telephone call is better than texting. I, when you have communication like that via text, it's like hiding. Right, it's hiding, that's what it is.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't have to actually talk to the person, so I can avoid a really uncomfortable interaction. Yeah, that sounds about right.
Cleveland Oakes:And also when you depend too much on digital interactions and you have this new generation of people and I see it all the time that they don't know how to talk or interact with each other. They don't know how to read body language or cues Weird.
Lindsay Oakes:Dude on 90 day fiance. Oh yes, the bachelor party.
Cleveland Oakes:What's his name? Clayton Clayton, so strange.
Lindsay Oakes:His. That is his best friend, who he had only just met because his fiance made him, and even she says I wish we would go out more and socialize more and be out with friends, and his only friendships and interactions are online with people. And that's also very interesting because he's a very, very, very, very weird, because I feel that maybe there's like some insecurity or lack of confidence there that you can't go out and socialize.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and another thing, and as we, before we move on to the next topic, is online persona versus reality. I could be anybody online, you know that does Absolutely. And what you find is that sometimes people and we've had these interactions with our friends that in real life they're great people. Online they're fucking assholes.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, absolutely. I was just listening to something somewhere. Oh, I was watching a movie actually the other day when you were working. It was a cheesy hallmark movie they all are, but one of the one of the actors in the movie was it was just that he was face to face with a woman and they really enjoyed each other's company. She was a writer and she wrote anonymously like an advice column, and he was triggered by the column so he would write back to her and he named himself something else and it went back and forth that way and eventually they found out that it was each other, but the interactions online were so different than the interactions that they were having in person.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. And then there's one last piece before we move on to the next topic is fear of missing out. We have, oh yeah, I do not have.
Lindsay Oakes:FOMO. Please don't invite me, please Don't, and I know I don't want to go.
Cleveland Oakes:I know in an earlier podcast you talked about how social media had caused like FOMO among some of our friends, but I want you to just touch on that story again about the rules of posting and not posting.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, first of all, once again, why do you have to tell everybody where you are all the time? I mean, we were out with a couple once and she was taking all these pictures and I said to her are you going to post that? And she's like I'm allowed to post whatever I want. And I'm like, ok. And then she tagged me. I didn't accept the tag, of course, because I never do unless it's like you and me, but I feel like that's done on purpose to make someone else jealous or to cause friction, right, especially because this is this weird triangulated situation that we have.
Cleveland Oakes:And it did cause friction from what I remember.
Lindsay Oakes:It caused. It always causes friction. That's why I said last week I don't make plans with these people anymore. I wait for them to make plans with us and I don't always go either. We have not really been available lately. I've been very busy, you've been very busy, super, and I feel like right now we're just kind of taking a break and when I, when I go out, I want to go out with you. I don't want to go out and you know, have to deal with the one who's, like, got to be the center of attention all the time in the room, and then you have the other one that's vying for the attention and yeah, but I don't have FOMO. If you don't invite me, it's OK. Yeah, if I'm not free and you still go out with the other person, that's all right, I'm still going to talk to you tomorrow.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, my schedules are so busy. I remember a few years ago there was a little kerfuffle where there was a family gathering and somebody didn't get invited, and you know, somebody's husband didn't get invited. And eventually it all worked out. But I remember telling my my brother listen, next time your daughter gets married, please don't invite me.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, I was. Hopefully she's not going to have to get married, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but I'm like yeah, but I was like I don't even understand what they're complaining about, because I have so many obligations that it's actually a bother for me.
Lindsay Oakes:I didn't even go with you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, it was actually a bother for me to go to go out there, which leads us to our next topic, which is barriers to bonding as a Lindsay's pouring out some of the the vino. So when we were kids, we had so much time to really make friends and you didn't have any responsibilities, you didn't work, maybe you went to school and you came home and you spent some family time, and then you know, you got to spend time with your friends. But what is one of the biggest things that you find challenging, lindsay, about trying to maintain friendships with in them as an adult?
Lindsay Oakes:I think there's a lot of things. There's a lack of time, being in different places, different stages of life. You know differences in personality as we grow older, and a big one is distance. Right, people move to different places and you don't really. I don't maintain a lot of friendships the way I would like to maintain them, especially from college.
Lindsay Oakes:But when we grew up, you went to school every day and those were your friends, right? My? I lived in a neighborhood, I think we had nine or 10 kids right on our one little street. So you're outside playing. It's naturally to connect with these kids because you're throwing a ball around and they run around and want to come and play. Right, it's so different and I think also it's our own self-esteem as adults too, right, when you're younger, you're just, you don't have all of these hangups about who you are and what you look like and how you're going to be judged, and then, as an adult, I think that those can impact. You know bonding as well, because now there's a, like, a higher level of awareness as an adult. Does that make sense to you?
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, I think one of the things that people struggle with as a adult is the changing life stages. Oftentimes I've sat down and I'll let you definitely speak to your experience, Lindsay where you have a client that every all of my friends are getting married. I'm the only one or all of my friends, it depends on where you're at or all of my friends are getting divorced and I'm still single. And so what do you tell someone when they come and their and their friends group is transitioning on without them?
Lindsay Oakes:Do I have clients like that?
Cleveland Oakes:I feel like you talked about somebody the other day that they were all their friends were buying houses, oh well, that was a little bit of a different situation.
Lindsay Oakes:That was more about a marriage situation. What was your question? Again?
Cleveland Oakes:About, about changing life stages, about when you're, when you're someplace like as you get older, and as and as, and people are doing different things, like somebody's we're getting to that age where some people have grandchildren and some people have children and some people have.
Lindsay Oakes:I had my children very, very young, so a lot of the friends that I had with kids my age were much older than me. But in this particular situation I know what you're talking about was this was a couple and they were still dating and not married and you know he was still having a good old time in the city and all of her friends have gotten married, have kids, they've left the city, they've bought houses and so this has been a big point of contention in their relationship because she wants those things Right and so there's some time. Is that balance issue again, One person wants one thing and the other wants another thing?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and as you get older, I think it means that you have to prioritize who you friends with. Right, you'll meet people and be like, oh, I don't have time for my friends. But when you get older and you have a family and you have a wife and kids, those your friends become your spouse. Your friends become your children, your friends become your grandchildren. And what do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I agree, and I have so little free time, especially right now, that in the free time that I have, I want to spend it with you because I enjoy your company. So when we're so busy doing things all the time, right, these are the people we spend the most time with our kids, grandkids, spouses, and so I think it's you know that you're right, those you know I mean you and I spend a lot of time together every night, but you know, on the weekends too, right now, I like, even when we're, even when we go out, we can always ask people. We do a lot of day trips up to vineyards and, you know, hiking and little towns for shopping and brunch, and we could always bring people with us, but I don't usually want to yes, because we spend so much time with other people that I'm fine with you.
Cleveland Oakes:I hope you're fine with I am very fine with you. What I think what I think what drives our friends crazy a lot is that who always want to hang out with us. We had somebody reach out to us today, and I'm not saying that we're the bees knees because the kids definitely don't want to hang out with us, but that we're so busy and we are so fulfilled with each other that it is hard for us to make time for friends at time. That doesn't mean that it's healthy or great. You should have other interests outside of your spouse and outside of your immediate family, but that's just the truth of it.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the things that I liked about last night is about how vulnerable everyone was when everyone was up there toasting. I remember one young lady getting up and saying that it was hard for her to make friends because she's shy and she's introverted and that the great skill that Daphne has is I called Daphne a multiplier. She's a connector of people. And what do you think about that for people who are hard to open up and are hard to be vulnerable?
Lindsay Oakes:I agree, but I have to say that if you're a really kind person who makes good friends and you're a good friend, right you have all the qualities that a good friend possesses. You probably attract people who are also good friends, which is why it was so easy to socialize with people last night. There was no not fitting in or not feeling, you know, because we've gone to other places and we've just not, like I could sit all night and not talk to anybody, Right, Especially if there's like a big age gap or something. But I think I think it's. You know, when you attract quality people, they're kind to everybody as well. Like you know, you were able to go off and talk to the guys last night. I was able to sit and talk with the women and we were able to kind of hang out and have a good time, Even though the teenagers had a good time, right. You know our the Queen mom never leaves the house, so you know it was a good time for her if she actually came out. Yeah, I was.
Cleveland Oakes:I was, I was glad that she came out, um, and then the last thing I want to talk about in this piece is like setting routine and and and creating a comfort zone. Um, as an adult, we often settle in routines, um, and we often, but times become resistant to change. A person will be lonely, but it's like, oh, I don't want to try something new. I remember, uh, and especially and this happens with people who are divorced I remember getting divorced, um, what is it now Like? Going on 10 years?
Lindsay Oakes:over.
Cleveland Oakes:You lose your friendships. Yeah, yeah, you lose your friendships. I've had clients that go through that struggle. They go through breakups and it's like, how do I make new friends, um, and it's like sometimes you just got to break a routine. Um, what I did for myself is I started taking acting classes and I started doing small projects, and I'm still friends with a lot of I'm not an actor, obviously. You've never seen me in anything but those connections that I made at that time. I'm still friends and still talk to a lot of those people and I still network with those people.
Lindsay Oakes:I think that's because there's a shared interest. I always say when I go on meditation retreat even if these people I see them once a year the first time I went there I was so out of my comfort zone but everybody just welcomed me with open arms, right, so like if you know what a sangha is, right, a sangha, or like your people and the things you know. It's like that was your group probably of people that you felt comfortable around because you had shared interests, right, and you were similar personality styles and similar career interests or hobby interests. And for me, the meditation group was a bunch of people who had a lot of spiritual beliefs, a lot of compassion, a lot of empathy, and so for me I feel most at ease with people that I have something in common with.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think it's important. You stepped out of your comfort zone. That's what you did and you talked about in the first episode. Is you stepped out of your comfort zone? You did and you went someplace that you weren't sure that you're going to be comfortable and you and I remember we went. Where were we at that? We went to dinner with one of the young ladies, syracuse.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, yes, yeah, oh, I met her, phoebe. I got you so lovely. I love her Still. Stay in touch with her. Yeah, it's, it's hard, I think, for me. I actually want to go on retreat again this year, which I'm trying to figure out just because of the timing with school and everything and how busy I've been, but it's, it's important to make the time to do the things that you like to do, and this is all about stepping out of your comfort zone. I am not comfortable going places around here alone. I often would rather stay home than go out, and I think one of the things I say most about where we live right now is that I don't have a sangha, I don't have a community of like-minded people. Right, I'm vegan. I'm kind of like a modern day hippie. I meditate, I breathe, I check in with myself, I do a lot of yoga. I don't. I can't find those people here. Yeah, I cannot find those people here, and I've tried and that's that's been a real struggle for me as an adult.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and it's interesting to go into that, as I remember many years ago when I was at FedEx, I had a colleague that was super shy, that moved from another state and he didn't go to therapy. I would have, and this was back even before therapy was huge. This is in the 90s. But what he did is he stepped out of his comfort zone, he started going to bars and he started going out to places and forced himself to talk to people. That's one of the things I think that Albert Ellis did. Himself. The founder of REBT thought he was found that he was shy, found that he was found difficulty talking to women and making friends, and he just got out of his comfort zone and went and did it. What do you think about that? By just getting out of your comfort zone and going to do that?
Lindsay Oakes:I'm all about that. I think that's great. If you can do that, I for one, I'll get out of my comfort zone and go somewhere. I think I went to Key Largo on a trip alone when I was getting divorced and but my thing is is that I just bring a book and I don't talk to anybody, and so I can go because I'm not worried about people. You know what people think of me or if they approach me and if I'm going to make connections there. But if you can do that, I think it's great.
Lindsay Oakes:But it's also really important to like yourself and to be able to go and do those things alone. Right, I just started this new training and I've only just started listening to the modules, but it's a year long training and it's led by Gabor Matay, and he says that once that you can see yourself clearly in the mirror, right, meaning like, once you can look at yourself and see yourself clearly, with all the good parts and all the bad parts, right, then you can have compassion for yourself, and then you can go ahead and have compassion for other people, right, and it's so interesting because once you do that, you step out of your comfort zone, right, you have this recognition of like oh, this is who I am, I'm OK with it and I need to go and do this.
Cleveland Oakes:And what's what's? What I find ironic is people. I want to touch back on the social media, the computer piece of it again, is people think that is making friends. Well, I have a lot of friends, or you know, because I'm on social media. What I found with clients, especially those who have suffered with depression and anxiety, and even my own self when I went through a divorce and it was a very dark and depressing time for me is I got out of the house, right, I did like what my, what my patient says, I got the Riz.
Cleveland Oakes:People will tell you boy Cleveland, you're very charismatic. I am charismatic because I forced myself out of my comfort zone. I joined an acting course. I joined some acting classes. Some of the things one of my clients have done and one of my friends have done in the past is go to improv shops or to take comedy lessons or to go to pottery things and I'll go to paint and sips is to actually get out of the house, go outside and, like Albert Ellis and like that gentleman I worked at FedEx with you, get the Riz, or charisma, by practicing, by meeting people. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I agree, I always admire that about you because I would probably stay inside 95% of the time if I could. I mean, I'll go for a walk, I'll go out in the neighborhood for a bike ride, but I like to be outside. But I really struggle with that and it's something that you're really good at and I don't know if it's. You know, I really didn't realize that was a struggle for you. I just thought that you were just so naturally like yeah, I'm gonna go. You know, and you just you're really good at meeting people because you're very extroverted and you have, I feel, like you could talk about any topic. Someone could bring something up that happened like 37 years ago at noon on a Tuesday and you'll be like, oh, I totally remember that. And oh, my God, here we go. Right, you'll talk about anything. I'm not like that. So you are like you're getting out of your comfort zone. I would never even know that you're getting out of your comfort zone, because you're always. You always seem so comfortable.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it took practice. Somebody at work told me the other day like what don't you know? And I was like a lot, but they won't let you.
Lindsay Oakes:You have so much weird factual information that I don't have to read anything, and if I want to know about something I tell you and then you read it for me and then you report back.
Cleveland Oakes:And then I come back it's like yes, this is what happened. Before we close the section out, I just want to recap some of the things that we talked about about making connection in real life, which is find, get outside, go outside, find an activity group, don't go online. I mean, if you have to go online, and that's one way, if that's the only way that you can interact, but if you really want to meet people, because the universe designed us to be social creatures and to be social animals, you have to do it outside and in groups. So you can take a community class, you can go to Pilates. There are even apps that are now designed to. I think there's Bumble for Friends or something like that.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think another point too right is what Lori brought up a couple of weeks ago when we had her on, which was that if you go places and you think that people are looking at you and judging you, but they're really not paying attention to what you're doing, and so sometimes you have to go more than once to form those friendships, if you go to a yoga class every week, at the same time you're going to start to recognize these people and you're going to start to chat with these people and you're going to make friends or form a relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's going to move us. So I think that's a great segue to our next topic, which is friendship maintenance keeping those flames alive. So, as we begin winding down this conversation, we've given you a lot of strategies on how to make friends, but how do you maintain them? Lindsay, what are some strategies for you that you think about?
Lindsay Oakes:Staying in touch, checking in on people, sending a quick message, Right. That's something that you struggle with. I struggle with it a lot.
Cleveland Oakes:I call myself a bad friend. The other day it was speaking of being friends with your children and friends with family. I missed both my son's birthday in the last week and my other son reached out to me and was like, oh man, they felt a type of way, and that is just me. I grew up with a Jehovah's Witness, it's no excuse and I didn't celebrate birthdays, and so one of the things that has even as friendly as I am that I have had disconnects in falling out with people is because I haven't recognized those special days for them and I did not do the regular check-in with them. And that's really important. What do you think?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think it's important. I always say to you too, you struggle with reaching out to people, and I'll be like, oh how so. And so you'll be like, oh my god, I haven't texted them in forever. But then on the flip side, they're also not texting you, Right? So I guess? But communicating, spending time with people, supporting them, being supportive and having open communication, respecting people's boundaries People are at different places in their lives. I have a good friend who's my age, who has a three-year-old. My youngest is 16. That's a huge age difference. So it's being helpful and offering them advice and being patient with them when they don't have the time or if they have something going on, and just being appreciative and grateful for what they offer you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think it's important also to be flexible, and I think you brought out a good point about friends not reaching out to me either. A few years ago I had a friend reach out when my dad passed away and it was somebody that I had worked with for a long time at work maybe about for 13 years and that person lamented how people at work didn't reach out to them after they were laid off, and they mentioned one specific person in particular and I was like hey, do you know why that person didn't reach out to you? Because this happened to them and they're probably embarrassed. And I tell to that person sometimes you have to take the first step with friends and not assume that they're not reaching out to you because they don't like you, but oftentimes people have other things going on in their life. Well, I mean.
Lindsay Oakes:A perfect example is my friend who I hadn't heard from and we didn't have any kind of conflict or anything. But I did reach out to her a couple of times and I hadn't heard back and I was like, oh, this is odd. And then it turned out that she was in a really bad car accident, remember, and I was like, oh my god, I had no idea until she called me two weeks later. So it's like we can't make assumptions, or if people don't respond, you get petty or things come up. How many times do you read a message? I do this all the time with work even I see a text and I'm in the car at 9.30 in the morning and then three days later I think, oh my god, I never responded to that person Because 500 other texts came in. So we do have to be patient with people and we have to realize that they do have other things going on in their lives and we can't make assumptions.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and part of that is, and part of being flexible is, embracing life changes. I think and we actually talked about this person earlier in the car today sometimes when friends get boyfriends and friends get girlfriends or they have romantic relationship, their platonic friends get upset and I remember a few years ago that you had a friend that was very intimidated by our relationship and I just want can you talk on that? Like, can you talk on that necessarily, that experience, but how would you advise people handle that?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's the other person's problem. I mean, you didn't even know her, so it was something going on within herself where she struggled with me moving on after a divorce and meeting somebody else, maybe because I couldn't spend the same amount of time with her that I previously spent time with. She had a lot of judgments and horrible things to say about you and ultimately, at the end of the friendship, she'd wanted me to go somewhere with her and like to have brunch, and I didn't respond to the text quickly enough.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because I think we were out, we were food shopping or something, we were somewhere.
Lindsay Oakes:And I didn't respond quickly enough. And then I ended up saying, oh, you know what, clevis, here for the weekend, I'm not able to go. And then she said that I owed her an apology for not responding soon enough. And I was like what? And then a couple of days passed and then she said if I didn't give her an apology, then the friendship was over. And I really, just at that point I didn't even know what to say because I really didn't know what I had to apologize for. And I said that. I said I guess I'm sorry that you're upset, you know. I said sometimes, you know, you don't respond to me if you're otherwise engaged with somebody, and I don't, it doesn't bother me, right, but I don't, for whatever reason. This was a big problem and you know that was all her stuff, not mine, right? Her own insecurities, her own envy, whatever it was of her not feeling like she was going to meet anybody, I don't know. But yeah, we to this day have not spoken because of that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I remember something that you told me that kind of hurt my feelings because I thought that person like me. There was a picture of the boys together and that person was like train wreck and wasn't supportive at all.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, no, and you know, if I thought it was a train wreck, I wouldn't have introduced my kids to your kids and the kids wouldn't have met you and I wouldn't have met your kids. Right, this was something that was planned and we also didn't introduce kids for a really long time, so it wasn't like we met in a week later. Everyone was hanging out, right.
Cleveland Oakes:Something that Daphne said that struck me and made me realize like wow, she's a good friend. She said last night she was like, even though Daphne was officiated our wedding. She said last night that when you first met me and was like woof, you know, I'm dating this guy, that she was like woof, I don't know, I don't know about this, I don't know, but that was the first time in the eight years that I've known Daphne. That was the first time that I even thought that she had trepidation about our relationship. But she said she as a good friend, she felt it was her job to not say anything and to be supportive. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, and she loves us. Now she said that she wants what we have, right? Um, I think that she I mean she ended up marrying us, so she definitely likes us, because she is one to tell the truth, oh.
Cleveland Oakes:Daphne will definitely tell the truth.
Lindsay Oakes:She will tell the truth. So, um, yeah, absolutely, she's and she's, she's so wonderful and she's so kind. And you know, I didn't actually even hear her say that last night I don't know where I was but yeah, she said that, she said that. But it's true, right. It's like, you know, we meet people and when we have friendships and people go through these life changes, right. Sometimes we look at it and we're like, oof, I'm waiting to see what happens, right.
Lindsay Oakes:And maybe she felt it was too soon or maybe it was a trigger for her because she was going through a divorce, I don't know, right. But but we maintained the friendship, right. And the other thing that she said, which we talked about in the beginning, was the thing that she loves about me is that we could be busy. And you know, she said, oh, sometimes I feel like a bad friend, like we don't talk enough. I hardly ever see you, she said, but then we always just resume where we left off. And I agree with her on that, right. And that's what a good, solid friendship is Somebody who is a good friend, who accepts you the way that you are, with all of your faults, right, and all of your strengths, and can pick up where you left off.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I'm going to sing here for a second. Don't go changing to try to please me. But that is what. What friendships? That is what a friendship really is. I want to move on to our next up to two as we as we start to rap. But this is one that's really important to me. Jordan Harbinger, who has a great show, used to host the art of charm, now hosts his own show, the Jordan Harbinger show. It's always says that you fly as high as your five closest friends, and then he adds to that that you don't need more than five friends. Um, and we have a friend we had old name remain nameless and they listen to the show, they'll know who we're talking about.
Lindsay Oakes:Even know if I have five close.
Cleveland Oakes:But but I want to talk about quality over quantity, right, and we have a friend that, no matter where they go, they pick up like 15, 20 friends. It was like they go on vacation and like here, and then here's on the social media, here's all our friends and they're with 20 people and then they maintain that those, they try to maintain those friendships.
Lindsay Oakes:Now I know in a recent conversation that that person told you that they felt stretched then, that they felt lonely because they couldn't hang out with anybody and didn't feel like they had any quality friendships, you know? And well, right, because you can't have quality friendships with 500 people, right, you can't, right. And so that you have to figure out is so that you don't have to be alone, so that you don't have to sit quietly with your thoughts? Right, let me busy myself by talking and going and meeting people, because it's just so uncomfortable for me to sit here alone and not talk to anybody.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, one and one, and and, and and. Moving on to something else, it's important to be present with the five of the three people that are really important in your life. I think one of the things that we do, especially with social media, is I and we go out. We talked about in the episode when you know everybody's on the phone and people are out and they're spending time together and are they really when everybody's on their phone?
Lindsay Oakes:No, absolutely not. That drives me crazy. Sometimes I don't even take the phone out, like especially when we go on vacation. I'll do a quick check in in the morning and then, when we go off to the beach or dinner, I just leave it in the hotel room.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I'll leave it in the car, leave it in the, you know you never know where your phone. Yeah, I never know where my phone when we go away, because I came there to spend time with you, right, and I came to spend time with friends. You know I would friends. You know I spend time with friends when I'm at work and I'm working. I'm focused on working. You, can you know that I will? It'll be hours later before I respond back to your attention.
Lindsay Oakes:I just put a quick phone call in and then you're usually not available to pick up. So then you look at the text to tell me I'm not free and then you respond to me and that that works for us, Like I just dinged your phone If I want to ask you something or we need something, you know with the roof or whatever's going on here in the moment, which seems like a lot, A lot, but I just say if my kids are with their dad, he's capable of handling an emergency and I can't get back from Barbados or Tortola or Guadalupe to handle the emergency and he's with them, so they're not going to be bothering me, so I can leave the phone because there's no work call or no friend.
Lindsay Oakes:That can't wait three or four hours, Right, I, I really I mean you and I really enjoy spending time together, so which I think is, you know, an unusual thing for a lot of people in relationships. But I don't need to be connected all the time, I don't. I don't need everyone to know where I am and what I'm doing, and I think that that's just a big like a thing where people need to be told how wonderful they are. Right, this week I saw someone I went to college with who posted something about how the daughter has like a 4.0 and posted all the grades and the letter from the school and all that. That's fantastic. I'm happy for her.
Lindsay Oakes:But you know when you do that, you're not thinking about all the people whose kids didn't go to college, or you know whose kids are struggling with mental health issues or in specialized schools, right, or you know kids that you know have had their own struggles and then, because the struggle is real for the parents too and I've talked about that before Like it's great that you have a successful child, but why does the whole world need to know? Yeah, why do you have?
Cleveland Oakes:to do that humble brag.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, right, do you agree? I?
Cleveland Oakes:think it's so unattractive, like I just think people decide like I don't want to mess with that person because you don't even realize how your online persona is coming off as braggadocious.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and I think that people, just I think it's you know, we should actually dedicate an entire episode to awareness, because I think most people are just completely unaware. They don't, they're not aware of their own behavior, they're not aware of the impacts of their behavior on other people. You know, I think that most people walk around unaware in this world.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think that's yeah. And in order to maintain friendships, you have to be aware it takes. You have to cultivate it, Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, but you also. It's a. It's a reciprocity, right? I'm working with a family now and I said to them do you know what reciprocity is? Because everything for the kid was no, no, no, no, no. And then they're coming to family therapy because the kid is just rebelling and not speaking to them. And I said, well, that's all she can control, right, she can control not talking to you and she can control how much food she puts in her mouth. So, you know, she's got a lot of health issues because she's so thin. And the parent, you know, she's passing out and the parents are freaking out.
Lindsay Oakes:And I said would it hurt to say yes, sometimes? I said, and then I taught them what reciprocity was. And the mother, they're, they're not Americans. So the mother said, oh, can you tell me again? I want to write that word down, right, but you know there's a give and take in all relationships, right? And one piece of parenting advice that I learned from you which is very valuable is you can't say no to everything, right, you can't say no to everything. Then you are going to lose your kid, yeah, right.
Lindsay Oakes:Or you lose your friend, right. And so it's like in a relationship, there has to be reciprocity, right, and it doesn't have to be equal, right. I always say what's fair isn't always equal, but there has to be a back and forth, right. You do things for people, you check in on them. You know, I don't expect, because I brought Daphne a birthday gift, I don't expect her to give me a gift on my birthday, right, right, but there's a reciprocity, there's a social exchange. A social exchange, right. An understanding, checking in, being there for somebody, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And it's funny, I had that as we wrap. I had that discussion with the middle son, the 20, I'm bad with the age, the 27 year old, yeah and he was talking about, oh, how he's having a hard time and how he's struggling with certain things and with making friends and being successful, and I was like, dude, it's a reciprocal relationship. If you don't put anything into the world, the world is not going to put anything into you. And if you're sitting home and you think you're going to make friends by sitting at home and sitting on your ass and on the social media and on the games, you're not going to make anything. I think you had a comment that you were getting raised, saying no, I was just thinking about it.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, he's, he's on the struggle bus right now in a big way, and you know we have helped him out. But it's also like, also sometimes people get stuck in being the victim, Right, and you know we that's another episode actually in itself that we've talked about doing. But you know it's that when you talk to them, it's like when you're in that victim mentality, you don't even hear.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and who wants to be your friend with a victim.
Lindsay Oakes:Not me, not me. It's like complaining, right, when someone complains all the time, right, I think. I said to my friend she has a three year old and she's very funny. I said to her um, she was having trouble getting the kid. The kid kept taking her clothes off and wouldn't go to daycare. And I said, scoop her up under your arm in her diaper, put her in the car naked and take her to daycare, and I can guarantee you that will be the last time that that child doesn't get dressed in the morning. Right, and she didn't listen to me, sciao. And she called the daycare and said OK, we're on the way now. And it was 10 30 in the morning. The daycare said yeah, I'm really sorry, but this is disruptive to our routine and she can't come now.
Lindsay Oakes:And then the what Right? So, and I said I said you are in charge, not the three year old, not the three year old. And so like you can't say no to everything, yes, but like you also can't be the victim here, you didn't follow the rules, so now you can't go.
Cleveland Oakes:I know many years ago SNL used to have a skit called Doug in Debbie. I think it was Doug in Debbie Downer.
Lindsay Oakes:I think you talked about that a couple weeks ago, I think you talked about the complaining, yeah, and it's like nobody wanted me.
Cleveland Oakes:Hi, this is Doug and Debbie Downer, and if you are that person, I had to sit and tell somebody who's having trouble in their relationship. Sometimes you are the villain. You have to think about the role that you're playing in not keeping friends, not maintaining friends. If you are somebody who is constantly losing friends, maybe you are the person at fault, Always having drama with. Whatever friend you meet or whatever friend group is always content. You in, it's always conflict and it's always.
Lindsay Oakes:Look at yourself right, yeah, absolutely, I always say that. Right, there's a common denominator.
Cleveland Oakes:So Lynn, I'm going to, we're going to wrap. I just want to let you summarize and some key points that you think that you can share with the listeners, if there's anything that stood out to you per se that you would like to reiterate before we wrap, like something that a takeaway that you would share.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think, learn to see yourself clearly for all of your positives and all of your challenges right, so that you can be compassionate and that you can have reciprocal relationships with people. I think that's the big takeaway, right, because you're not going to have healthy, positive relationships with anyone if you don't have them with yourself first.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I can't really add more to that than that. So some recommended resources for those of you who want to read a little bit more on this topic. There's friendships don't just happen, the guide to creating a meaningful circle of friends by Shasta Nelson. How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is the famous book by Dale Carnegie. Also, the art of friendship 70 simple rules for making meaningful connections by Roger and Sally Horschau. And then, if you just want some quick things to read, you can read how Friendships Change in Adulthood, which was an article in the Atlantic for a few years ago. The New York Times also had an article about why is it hard to make friends over 30?, and it really talked about the specific challenges of making friends over 30. And then a last piece that I could recommend is 10 tips for making new friends on psychology today. With that being said, lindsay, any idea what we're going to talk about next?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, there's a lot of ideas floating out there, but we'll surprise everyone.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, I'm going to sing real quick, because one of the things I want to do is let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. So maybe in an upcoming episode we're going to talk about intimacy. But, with that being said, this is Cleveland, and this is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this has been another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know If you enjoyed what you heard. What you heard it was. My inner media came out for a second Rate and review us on iTunes, spotify or whatever platform you listen to us on. Also, get the word out and let your friends know. And if you ever want to ask us a question or if you have a letter written on the show, write on the show. Email us at gettoknowthedevil at gmailcom. Until the next time, give me the good to talk to no one. This is all I ever want to give you. I know we've been through way too much, but we'll make it through here for you and I'll buy you some Later. Talk about it. Talk. There's no need to bring it up. Nothing you say makes it better. Mm-mm. Make it all. Tear apart issues left behind. Nothing, you say makes it better.