Ever catch yourself being too nice for your own good? We're dissecting the "Nice Guy Syndrome," unraveling the mystery behind those acts of kindness we use as currency for approval and acceptance. You'll come away from our conversation with fresh perspectives on how to be authentic and assertive and why setting boundaries isn't just about preserving self-respect—it's also about building more profound, more genuine connections with others.
Resources for Further Exploration
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Ever catch yourself being too nice for your own good? We're dissecting the "Nice Guy Syndrome," unraveling the mystery behind those acts of kindness we use as currency for approval and acceptance. You'll come away from our conversation with fresh perspectives on how to be authentic and assertive and why setting boundaries isn't just about preserving self-respect—it's also about building more profound, more genuine connections with others.
Resources for Further Exploration
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland :And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today? No more, mr Nice Guy, this is one I'd like to call redefining strength, overcoming the Nice Guy Syndrome. I want to start this one off by asking a question which is could your niceness be a hidden contract you're not aware of? But before we get into that, let's talk about something interesting that you ate this week.
Lindsay:I went to Archie's Tapin' Table again I think we are out of free meal by now and had a really delicious pasta dish with broccoli, rob, some fancy mushrooms and a basil sauce and, of course, his fresh salad, which is made with watercress and other greens. That's so good.
Cleveland :Yeah, I had the same and it was amazing. You made me remember I remember eating the salad because the pasta was amazing. I took it to work the next day for lunch and folks were like what is that? It looks delicious and I was like yes, it is. But yeah, so good, yeah, so good. But out of those two things, I really enjoyed that watercress salad. You love watercress and you made me remember like you look, because what do I love it at Bodai Village.
Lindsay:Oh right, the watercress dumplings are your favorite. You always get two orders, so you can greedily eat an entire order yourself.
Cleveland :But it's so good and you know what I like about the way that I eat now is we get to eat so much and get to continue to lose weight because we're eating things that are not, you know, like full of saturated fats and oils and the things that kill you. And when they're tasty, I could eat. It's great to eat a bowl full of greens and as much as I used to love oxtail, a bowlful oxtail is going to kill you. A bowl full of watercress is absolutely not.
Lindsay:No, and you enjoy what you eat. So I mean, I do occasionally get a memo from you that it's a little too healthy tasting, but you get over it quickly, yeah.
Cleveland :So what was your devil of the week?
Lindsay:This week was really a little bit more of last week just feeling really overwhelmed at work and dealing with difficult people. So I get really frustrated when people blow me off and you know that happens a lot. In the past few weeks it's happened a lot and I just I don't have the patience for it anymore. So I'm just at this crossroads now deciding what's going to be next for me.
Cleveland :Oh yeah, meet me too. I would say my devil of the week has been a little bit dealing with other people, but then I like to realize that other people need to deal with me also. I'm not, it's a two way street. We went to go see that Bob Marley movie last night.
Lindsay:Fantastic movie. I loved it.
Cleveland :Great movie. I talked to a couple of friends of mine and they said you know they're that not everybody's happy about it. You know the critics are really kind of savaging it, but the word of mouth is really good. But one of the concepts with all of that out of the way, one of the concepts that I really enjoyed about that movie, which has helped me think about my devil of the week is, is the Rostafarian ideal of I and I, which they explain, instead of saying you and me or me and you, is to think about us as I and I, like a unification, yes, and that that unit unity. And so, as I approach, my devil of the week, when I go back into the office and go back into the subway and go back to driving, is not to think about people as individuals who are annoying me, because I'm probably annoying them too, but think about them as I and I, and that's my badge of making accident.
Lindsay:And what I took away from it was what he said, which was you can't think of vengeance and do the work that has to be done. Oh, yeah, right. So we're always looking to get even or to get back at somebody, and instead it's like stop worrying so much about what other people are doing and how it's impacting you, and do your own work right. Keep your side of the street clean.
Cleveland :Yeah, that's right, you know, and even though I want to say it was a very high level version of Bob Marley's life and it probably could have gotten a little bit more of the nitty gritty, the movie was really good because it was just about the unifying message of Bob Marley and Rastafarianism. I'm going to butcher that.
Lindsay:Rastafarianism.
Cleveland :Rastafarianism and the concept of Rastafarianism and how it is about peace and unity. And I do think at this time, this juncture of time that we're in, that people are like scattered and everybody's gone about their own way and their own, but their own ideals. That to have this idea of I and I is I think I agree with you.
Lindsay:I think everybody right now, in the world that we live in, it's all about me, me, me, me, right, and never about the collective or trying to. You know, get along with others and being able to we've talked about it in many episodes compromise, right and be able to be who you are, but also be okay when other people are themselves as well.
Cleveland :Yeah, absolutely, absolutely so. So if you don't have anything else to add, let's just jump on into that to our main topic, which is no more, mr Nice Guy.
Lindsay:How do you know? I didn't have anything else to add.
Cleveland :Well, did you I don't know. No, but you made an assumption. Because I'm not a nice guy, but maybe I am.
Lindsay:You are a very nice guy, but you're also a nice asshole, and we'll get to that.
Cleveland :Yeah, we'll definitely get to that. So let's talk about this. So no more, Mr Nice Guy. So I started this off with a question could your niceness be a hidden contract that you're not aware of? And, Lindsay, I want to ask you what do you think that question means?
Lindsay:I think it goes back to just this concept of awareness, right? Are you being who you authentically are, or are you entering into relationships under false pretenses of who you are?
Cleveland :Right, yes, that is it Exactly. In the book no More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert A Glover, that's what he talks about and he introduces the idea of the nice guy syndrome.
Lindsay:So let me just give you a brief definition of what the nice guy says oh, I have so much to say about this, so go ahead. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Cleveland :Oh, I knew, that's why I picked this one out for you. The nice guy syndrome is a behavioral pattern where individuals prioritize being overly nice, agreeable and accommodating in the hope of being liked, loved or rewarded. The nice guy syndrome refers to a behavioral pattern of observed in some individuals, typically men, who believe that by being overly nice, agreeable and accommodating they will be more liked, loved or rewarded in their personal and professional lives. This syndrome is characterized by a set of traits and behaviors that are driven by the desire to gain approval and avoid conflict at the cost of one's own needs.
Lindsay:Absolutely. I agree with everything said there. So basically, the nice guy syndrome refers to somebody with no boundaries and no backbone, who's willing to compromise their own authenticity because they're so desperate to be in a relationship. Right, that's what you're saying.
Cleveland :Yes, and so, basically, when you come across like that and this is for all you nice guys out there who are like why doesn't she like me? I'm a nice guy this episode is for you right, Because I think the key of what Lindsay just said is the desperation that that nice guy brings across.
Lindsay:And if you look at it I could think of so many couples I've seen in therapy where the guy's the nice guy and over time the relationship doesn't work out because the woman is not being a nice girl.
Cleveland :I think one of the things that you said to me is in a prior relationship before me. You specifically broke up with the guy because you didn't feel he was authentic, because he just let you do whatever the hell you wanted.
Lindsay:Yeah, I can't, I don't follow a set of rules, but I also have your own opinions and be who you are, and I think that's one of the strengths in our relationship is that we're very comfortable with our own individuality in addition to our togetherness, and you know you and I think also I think we both told each other who we were right from the very beginning.
Cleveland :Yeah, that's true. Let's talk about some of the characteristics. So let's unpack the nice guy syndrome. The characteristics of a nice guy are people pleasing, conflict avoidance, seek and validation, disease, favorite difficulty, setting boundaries and engaging in covert contracts. What do you think about that?
Lindsay:I think that let's talk. I mean, they're all very interrelated, right, because they're all almost traits of the people pleaser, and people pleasers avoid conflict because they don't want any situation where someone may think about them in any way but nice.
Cleveland :Yeah, yeah, one of the things that I used to struggle with, because I will say in the past that I suffered from. I'm a recovering people, pleaser. Yes, I am a recovering people, pleaser.
Lindsay:And one I'm sorry I didn't interrupt you because I know that I do that sometimes. But, I think that the like I always say right people pleasing is both your superpower and your kryptonite, because your job at work is to people please. So there's difficulty probably turning it off and not doing, because sometimes you come home and you try to solve a problem here that like doesn't need you to solve it but you're just. That's the role that you're in.
Cleveland :Yeah, yeah, and the problem with people pleasing had a conversation with a friend of a few weeks ago who was talking about taking a promotion at work and, instead of thinking about how that promotion was going to impact his family or himself, he was worried about what people in the office would think about if he took that promotion. I mean, isn't that? What do you think about that right? That, like he was more concerned about. Well, I don't want to come across as being somebody who took a colleague's job that got fired and I was like what? Like huh?
Lindsay:Like well, that person is probably not even going to know, but but that's just getting in your own way.
Cleveland :Right.
Lindsay:Right, and I always say to you wherever you need to go for work, I'll go with you, because to me it's not about the physical place, right, it's about being together. But, yeah, people, but people want to people please. And I have this with clients a lot and I say to them and mostly female clients, but it's like okay to want people to like you, but not at the expense of sacrificing everything about yourself and who you are. Right, and even as a person myself who's like, I don't care if people like me or not, and I really don't. I've worked hard to get there. I still don't want people to not like me. Yeah, right. And so I see where there's like very fine lines between you know being this way or not.
Cleveland :What do you think about the? And part of what goes into people pleasing is avoiding conflict, right, and nice guys typically want to be the peacemaker. They want to be the person that makes that makes the problem go away. And why is that a problem?
Lindsay:I was just saying that, like, that's directly related to people pleasing avoidance of conflict, and that is because the people pleaser wants people to like them. So if there is a conflict, there may be a negative point of view about that person, and then everyone doesn't like them, right, and so that's. Those two are very, very directly related, and you know, we can move immediately into the next one too, about seeking validation, right? Oh, I'm so nice to everybody. Everyone's going to say such wonderful things about me.
Cleveland :Yeah, we have a she's. She's older so she doesn't list about the podcast, so we can shit on her momentarily. But we have a neighbor that we have that swears that she's a nice, that she's a nice guy and she has the most and this goes back to the avoidance of conflict that she has the most passive, aggressive behaviors that I would rather just fight with me.
Lindsay:Right, or how about just leave me alone? Or leave me alone.
Cleveland :Right, and so not even a fight.
Lindsay:It's just like but out.
Cleveland :But that, that, that, that self-awareness, right, right. She calls me the other day to be like you're going to get a ticket if you don't put away your recycling. And I'm like wow, thank you very much. Five minutes later, what comes?
Lindsay:The recycling truck. It's she, but that's a situation of somebody who is grossly uncomfortable in being alone and being in their own life, so they have to interject themselves into everyone else's affairs. She doesn't do that with me because I don't talk to her, because I told her that she misdirects her energy, and ever since then we haven't been friends.
Cleveland :But she is someone and not to call her out, but she's someone who's seeking validation because she's thinks that she's so unaware that she thinks she's nice she also happened to come outside and wish you a happy Juneteenth last summer.
Cleveland :So let's talk about her level of awareness for a minute and I wanted to say hey, ma'am, I didn't know what Juneteenth was, just like you didn't know what it was a couple of months ago, and but that is the problem with the person. And I'm saying nice guy, but you can be a nice lady also, but that is the problem with the person who is trying so hard to be nice, right? What do you think about that?
Lindsay:Yeah, I said it. The person that's trying to be so nice is completely unaware and lacks authenticity, maybe because they're too afraid to be who they are or, in some cases, they don't even know who they are Right.
Cleveland :Right, and so that leads us to the next part, which is one of your, one of your favorite, which is setting boundaries. Nice guys and nice ladies have difficulty setting boundaries, and, lindsay, that's your jam, so let's talk about boundaries.
Lindsay:I absolutely love boundaries. If you want to have an interaction with me, this is how it's going to be Right. Boundaries are a way of telling people how to love you and how to interact with you, and so when you don't set those boundaries right in the people pleasing right, the nice guy syndrome when you don't set those boundaries, people walk all over you and then often people get annoyed that they're treated in a certain way, but then they still don't say anything because they want to avoid conflict. So they're living in this perpetual cycle of being unhappy.
Cleveland :Right. And when we think about the kind of people that we're attracted to as men and as women, do we want the person that's like the milk toast guy, or the person that is just like well, you know, sarah, you know he slapped you, but I'm not going to say anything because maybe he's having a bad day?
Lindsay:I don't. I mean, I don't want that kind of person and I don't think there's anybody who does want that kind of person. But you know, you and I are very different because we have a very fun dynamic, I think in most of our lives. Right Like this morning, you came in the kitchen and you were like yeah, okay, I'm ready to eat, warm that up for me.
Cleveland :But I was just playing.
Lindsay:I don't think you were playing, but I just think that it's also very funny because, like, that's our dynamic, right, I love to cook for you and do these things, but it's just so funny sometimes. Right Last week you said you came home from the store with something and I said, do you want a sandwich? And you handed me the roll you bought and you were like, yeah, you can make it now.
Cleveland :You know and I something I've caught myself as my one of my bosses at work, always when I'm interacting with folks and I am a nice guy and folks always say that I'm nice, but I am, I can get aggressive. Oh, he's a nice asshole.
Lindsay:Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that later, but I actually enjoy cooking for you. Like I also feel like these things are very funny because I'll look at you and I'll be like what? Did you just say to me and you're like oh my God and I always came out that way, I always catch myself.
Cleveland :I won't say which, because I have several bosses at work, but this one boss, always, when he, when he sees me interacting with folks and I'm like I need you to do this, I need you to do that, he's like thank you please. And I'm like oh, shoot right.
Lindsay:But it is. I do that to you at home too. I'll be like please, did you say please?
Cleveland :But yeah, but that is like a level of regression. But moving on, not to digress. I want to talk about this piece which is important, which is covert contracts, and for those of you who have never heard of a covert contract before, it is engaging in behaviors based on unspoken expectations that others will reciprocate in a specific way. In other words, you, the person, has to be a mind reader. Thank you, yeah, which leads to frustration and resentment when those expectations are not met. Lindsay, let's talk about that piece for a little bit.
Lindsay:Let's talk about this, because when I you know full disclosure here, I call you my producer and director because I don't do any of the research, sometimes I'll be like I have an idea for, oh look, it's not. Again. I'll be like I have an idea for a talk, like a show topic, and you'll go and do all the research and send it to me, because we both know I'm a procrastinator and you're a go getter. But I think that that is that's just like another way of getting pissed off at somebody because they're not mind reading. Right? Oh well, you should have done this, right? It's like, well, you should have just told me that that's what you needed or wanted. I'm very clear with you. When I want something, right, I mean, you know what I want from Tiffany, right?
Cleveland :Oh, yeah, yeah, Well. Well, because one of the listeners will send it to you if I, if I say what it is. But the importance and I think Dr Glover talks about it. There's an example in his book that he gives about why a covert contract is bad, and he gives an example of a young man who has a young lady in his life that he's been pining for for the last three years and their friends, and he goes over there when she's hurt and when she's heartbroken, and when she breaks up with somebody, he's always there to pick up. One evening he receives a phone call from her and was like hey, my flight is coming in from Tokyo at three o'clock in the morning. Can you come to the airport and come get me? And this guy is like yes, this is the moment I'm going to make up a name. This is the moment that Sarah is going to tell me that she's in love with me. Right, obviously, I'm coming to get her at three o'clock in the morning. She's going to know that I'm the guy for her and and, and this is going to be my moment.
Cleveland :She only wanted to ride. She only wanted to ride to her boyfriend's house, to which the guy spazs out and flips out on her and is like, oh, you're using me. And she's like what? Like you volunteered to come get me. Well, after she asked. But yeah, but after she asked. But what was the problem in that guy's, in the story that he created in his head in that covert contract?
Lindsay:Well, he created a whole story that there was going to be like a happily ever after attached to it. But you know, this is this is also such severe manipulation on the other part. I mean, she knew what she was doing and so it's just this. Awareness it's. Awareness is a big, big thing for people. You have to be aware and you know that's. I have to do a whole episode on awareness because lack of awareness is something that I see every single day at work and in my personal life with people.
Cleveland :And folks who sign covert contracts or create covert contracts who think they're nice are, in a way, Dr Glover points out, you're a creep right, Because the reason why type A personalities or assertive people get what they want is because they say what they want right away and they give the person the option to say yes or no.
Lindsay:Right Earlier today, I was laughing about something and you were upstairs and I said I was going to show it to you.
Lindsay:But very briefly, right, it's this whole idea of like just doing what people like you know, just doing and doing and doing and then getting nothing in return, kind of, and then getting annoyed about it. But there was a woman on Instagram who and you do this, or reminded me of you, which is why it gave me a laugh but when I ask you what you want for dinner, you're like, oh, whatever, anything is fine. So this woman actually was asking her husband the same thing and then she put on index cards in a pot anything, whatever, I'll eat anything. And then when he wanted dinner, she put the index cards on his plate. And I just laugh because it reminded me of you, it's. But you know, people just need to speak up and and this is like like let's get through these, because I have a lot of yeah things that these episode and talking points brought up for me and I said to you, this reminds me of so many of my clients individual and couples.
Cleveland :So we'll just run through these last points so that you can get to your talking points. But once again, lindsay, you already brought this out is all of these things, the seeking validation, the people pleasing, the difficulty, setting boundaries, the covert contracts. It is a lack of authenticity and people will smell that lack of authenticity a mile away. And the real life implications for the for those folks out there who are nice guys and nice girls is these behaviors are impacting your personal relationships, they're impacting your professional growth, they're impacting your mental health because they lead to unsatisfying relationships. Because you were so timid and you don't tell Sarah that you like, or that Bob that you like him. It leads to misopportunities and those misopportunities and resentment leads to emotional distress.
Lindsay:Right, I mean there's expectations. Do you remember what I said to you when we, before we, met?
Cleveland :No, you don't know, but go ahead.
Lindsay:Oh, you called me.
Cleveland :Oh, I know what you're going to say yes, yes, go ahead, but you can tell the audience because they wanted to make a plan to go out and I said I'd have to get a sitter for the kids and we arranged everything.
Lindsay:And then you said, all right, well, we'll just have to figure it out, because I like to make sure that my friends get home safe.
Cleveland :And you said to me oh, I want to be more than your friend.
Lindsay:No, I said I'm not looking for any new friends.
Cleveland :Oh, that's right, that is right and I was like oh, oh, that was nice, that was direct and and, unlike other women, and what I always appealed, what always appealed to me about you, as I had dated several women before you, after my divorce and everybody I was like 30s, like late 30s, early 40s, and everybody was acting like they were in high school, like oh you know, and weren't really like I like to say playing games. And what I liked about you from the very beginning is you were direct, you were clear, you still very clear and direct, you know.
Lindsay:Oh, I tell you what I want and need. I have no problem, yeah.
Cleveland :But that is, and you are a nice person, but when you, when it comes to your needs, like you are unafraid to express yourself.
Lindsay:So I want to, I like to say I'm kind, I don't believe in being nice. I think kind is a better version, kind and kind. I always tell my clients be kind, not nice.
Cleveland :Yeah, be kind and firm, Right. And that makes me I want to move on to the second, to our second segment is the psychology behind the nice guy syndrome, and I know you have a lot of of points that you want to drop here, so I'm going to let you drop all those nuggets, because you are the mental health expert. Individuals who are suffering from the nice guy syndrome often find themselves in unsatisfying relationships. Why? Because they feel unappreciated and misunderstood. Their inability to express genuine needs and desires leads to internalized resentment and feeling stuck. Professionally, these people are often overlooked for promotions and opportunities because and this was me in the past because of their reluctance to assert themselves or take initiative. This syndrome also affects mental health, emotional health and contributes to anxiety, depression and low self-esteem. And, lindsay, I'll let you take it from here.
Lindsay:I think I see this with so many clients and I have a lot of clients in really unhappy relationships, and when you started to talk to me about this episode in particular, I told you today, when I was reading through it, that this reminds me of so many of my clients, right, really nice men that I see as clients whose wives walk all over them and they tiptoe around because they have nice guy syndrome, right, they? Oh well, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and it's going to be fine. Oh, I don't want to upset her, dude, but you're fucking miserable. You're miserable, right. And so what happens is that we sacrifice our own authenticity, which then, in turn, right, is a sacrifice of our own happiness and contentment, because we're so busy watching what someone else does that we have to kind of cater to their every whim so that we don't rock the boat. I love to rock the boat, by the way.
Cleveland :Yeah, you know that I was going to say something.
Lindsay:No, I'm not.
Cleveland :No, no, you don't know what I was going to say, but I'm going to you know because this is a family.
Lindsay:I saw the look on your face and I knew where it was going.
Cleveland :This is a family show, so so we'll keep it. We'll keep it rated G. But yeah, that is a really important thing. What's? Because it leads back to attraction.
Cleveland :Many years ago in the Jordan Harbinger show and I think he had Dr Glover on on that particular episode he talked about a personal friend of his that is a nice guy and that this guy, no matter where he went, would always try to bring his wife right.
Cleveland :And so there was an incident that they were going to go and have a guy's trip and everyone agreed that they were going to have a guy's trip, but no one. I'm going to just say, in this case, this guy's name was Tom, but none of the guys wanted to bring Tom, because they were like Tom is going to want to bring his wife and that's going to change the whole dynamic of the of everything, right. So Jordan was like listen, I'll talk to him, I'll tell Tom listen, we're doing a guy's trip. This is only going to be for us, your wife can't come. And Tom agreed to it Day before the trip, who shows up with the airport with Tom, the wife, the wife right? And they were like they literally told him you can't come, bro, that's it. If you come, if you and this woman get on the plane together, then you guys are having your separate trip and you are not with you, are not with us.
Lindsay:You know what's funny? I went on that girls trip recently A few. I went to Jamaica last year, I went to Key West this year and I just have to say that I'm pretty sure that you did not want to be a part of either one of those. No desire.
Cleveland :No desire. But to get back to that point is like Jordan said hey, tom's a nice guy. Right, he's a nice guy. He was trying to make his wife happy. But then Jordan said, at the same time, this guy's wife comes to him. And it was like, hey, jordan, tom could really benefit from manning up. You know like he needs to learn how to be a man.
Lindsay:Tell him yeah.
Cleveland :And don't go with him. He's like you, like what are you talking about? Like you force him to do, it's like you force him to go everywhere with you and so, and so this is an example that Jordan was saying that this nice guy syndrome will destroy, ruins friendships, it ruins your marriage because it's you lack assertion and you lack boundaries.
Lindsay:Well, and we have seen that with some friends of ours too, where it's like, if you want to do a guys night out, that there are certain parties that are like, well, the guys are going to go out, well, you're not going to go. And I'm always like no, and then the person will be like, well, what are you going to do? And I was like, well, I'm pretty sure there's like a bottle of wine with my name on it and like a Hallmark movie waiting for me.
Lindsay:I don't mind those moments at all. Yeah Right, I think that you know I go on retreat every year. You stay home, right, you do your thing, and when I go away, that's your opportunity to do the things that you like to do that you don't really have time for, because when we're together, we spend time together, which is also really nice. I mean, this weekend we had a weekend alone that we had to give up because the kid needed some assistance and support. So the Queen mom flew off to have a girls weekend with her aunt in Maine.
Cleveland :And we just knew that this was going to be, and we were so excited.
Lindsay:We're going to be alone. We're going to do all these things Now the oldest one just needed our support, so he flew in, and here we are just parenting, going with the flow.
Cleveland :Yeah, that's that, yeah that's. Oh, my God, you got me, woo. But we digress for a moment as we think about the real world implications of being parents. But I want to talk about, like, some of the root causes of this nice guy syndrome and why these things and why couples end up in this scenario. Right, because it's so funny. When you ever meet, you meet these couples and we've got couples like this, that it is where the husband is nice and the wife is aggressive. The wife invariably always complains oh he's, he's soft, he's weak, and I wish he was stronger and it's like huh Like right.
Lindsay:I think one of the funniest things is our friends Joanne and Anthony. When he asks what are we doing, she'll sometimes say, anthony, your event planner is off today.
Cleveland :So figure it out with your friends, right and?
Lindsay:I think that that's hilarious. She's like she'll call me and be like I had to tell him that his event planner was on a break. Right, but you have to be. Let's bring it back to what I was saying about you. Right, you have to be a nice asshole. Right, you can be a nice guy and you can be kind and you can treat your partner well, which you should but you can also have your own interests. You can speak up, you can have opinions and you can be who you are, and if your partner doesn't like that, then you shouldn't be together, because it means that they don't like the real version of you.
Cleveland :Right, Right, One of the things as we move on, I want to talk about the root causes and you and I often think about when we sit down with clients and sit down with folks. What are the root causes behind this? Like, where do you think these as an as an expert in this Lindsey, where do you feel like these root causes arise?
Lindsay:Well, you know, the work that I do with clients we talked about this today is I primarily do in our child work with clients.
Lindsay:I don't believe in using, like textbook, cbt or DBT steps. Sure, they work for some people, but I believe that the people that we are today is a result of what happened to us growing up, and so a lot of the behaviors that we have are, for my own example, if I'm triggered by something, it's often not like current day Lindsay, it's three-year-old or 10-year-old or 18-year-old Lindsay who had experiences, and so we don't have like. We take these patterns through life, often because that's what we've learned from the way that we were raised, and then we become the people we are today. And so if you're raised with people who don't want to rock the boat, right, then you don't rock the boat. Or, on the alternative, right. If you're raised in a really tumultuous household, oh, I'm not going to be that way, right, I'm going to be the complete opposite, right? So we take what we've seen and experienced and then we develop our own relationship patterns and our own personality traits based on that.
Cleveland :Yeah, when I sat down with my buddy a couple of weeks ago that was telling me about that delimit his professional life I asked him like what was his his? There's a Japanese turn that I got from one of my clients called Ikegai, which is like what is your life purpose? And I was like, before you start thinking about your desire to please others or how is this decision going to please others, you really need to analyze and think about how do you please yourself right? And part of this, this nice guy syndrome, is for the desire of approval.
Lindsay:Absolutely, but that's also, you know. Every single characteristic that you described of the nice guy feeds into that.
Cleveland :I want to. I want to jump into this idea a little bit more and we glossed over it a little bit more about about covert contracts, because I think this is a really deep pathology or really deep part of the covert contract right, and I want to once again. A covert contract is a psychological concept that is often discussed in the context of interpersonal relationship and communication, and it refers to an unspoken agreement. Was Lindsay referred to mind reading? Covert contracts are common among individuals who struggle with direct communication of their desire and needs, leading to a range of personal and professional issues, and number one is unspoken expectations. What do you think about that?
Lindsay:Um, well, that's people pleasing at its finest and the mind reading right. This is what I need you to do, but I'm not going to tell you, and then I'm going to be mad when you don't do it.
Cleveland :Yeah, dr. One of the ironic things that Dr Glover points out in the book is the guy who the nice guy or the nice lady across the street is actually an asshole. Why? Because their kindness is tied to not genuineness. Like I'm not doing, like when I'm kind to somebody is because it's genuine. No, you're kind. Yeah, I don't expect reciprocity, you know when.
Lindsay:I shouldn't ever expect right that that there's. I mean, obviously there's always reciprocity, reciprocity and relationships. But you just have to also relinquish, like you're saying, expectations of people and how they're going to react in return.
Cleveland :Yeah, but people who think they're nice guys, or who, who who aim to be nice guys, they have what Dr Glover calls conditional giving. That is, I am doing this nice thing for you, be it a favor or a gift or an act of kindness, because you think that I expect you to give me my hidden expectation.
Lindsay:So I expect you to just keep reading my mind right, Right.
Cleveland :And that leads to the next part, which is disappointment and resentment.
Lindsay:Well, sure, because then I'm mad at you now because you didn't read my mind, right, right, one of the things that I think in our relationship that's very funny is how we argue, right, is that like, yeah, I'll have a bad day and you'll start yelling at me, but I'm like, oh, I needed was for you to ask me what happened, and so we're very clear in our expectations. But yeah, it's like I'm mad at you now because you didn't anticipate, right, like I know with you how to interact with you. If there's something specific that I want for a gift, I better just tell you where it is and where to get it.
Cleveland :And the danger of a covert contract is once again, that manipulation piece right. And manipulation happens from time to time in relationships. Most times it's unintentional, but covert contracts once again are is like a is an asshole move because it is manipulative, because you who hold the contract know what you want and it's an attempt to really get control.
Lindsay:But is it or is it unawareness, right? Which is what it brought me to? Is this level of unawareness, like I want something but I'm not going to tell my partner what it is, and I just want them to, like, read my mind and go do it for me, and then I'm going to get mad at them when it doesn't happen? So it's like this. You know, it's very different than, like you know, an unspoken agreement right, yes, right.
Cleveland :Well, unspoken agreement is at least we agree, right.
Lindsay:Right, but you know you have to have and this is what I tell clients all the time expectations are the most important discussion that you have to have before you enter into a serious relationship with someone.
Cleveland :Yeah, and once again, it's damaging, because you are asking someone to love you and I want you guys to listen to this. You are asking someone to love you without their consent or without their knowledge, right, and then you're going to get upset because that person is not loving you without their consent or their knowledge. What do you think about that?
Cleveland :Yeah, it goes back into the same thing, right Of like I'm going to do this and I'm going to act like you should know, and then I'm going to get upset when you don't do it, and in relationships, be you the nice guy, the nice girl, a covert contract in a marriage or a covert contract at work, or a covert contract in a friendship is is going to is dooming both parties to failure. The person who's forming the contract is likely to be let down because their expectations are hidden, and the other party, who doesn't even realize that they're in an arrangement with you, is going to feel manipulated, blindsided by the unexpected expectations that they're aware of. It's like that story in the airport. So, even though, yeah, old girl was manipulating him by coming to get him because she could have asked a boyfriend, but when the guy exploded on her and was like, oh, I thought you loved me, she was blindsided, or at least claimed to be blindsided.
Cleveland :Well, because she thought it was going to continue to go the way that she wanted it to go right, and so the next part that we're going to really jump to is how do you overcome a covert contract or what's a, what's a, what's a way to get out of a, you know, to stop that behavior?
Lindsay:To become aware of yourself and put boundaries into place. Really, yeah, talk to it. Yeah, I mean like awareness is a huge thing for me and I see this and you know, often we talk in this, in these episodes and in this podcast about like intimate and romantic relationships, but all of these things actually apply to work relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, you know, relationships with your family or children. It's not just in like intimate relationships or romantic relationships, right, it's. It's that you have to have authenticity and awareness. This is who I am and you have to be comfortable with that, and I think I said it last week when we recorded.
Lindsay:But I'm doing this new training now and it's fantastic and it's intense and it's a year long training with Gabor Maté and it is all about resolving your own stuff before you work to help other people resolve theirs right, and keeping the mirror clean, meaning that when you look in the mirror, even though most of the time we see the negative things about ourselves, is resolving them and saying, okay, these things are a part of me, right, and it's this level of awareness that this is who I am, and getting to love that person. And, if you ask me, nobody should be in any kind of relationship if they don't have that awareness about who they are.
Cleveland :Yeah, yeah, and before we move on to our last piece, I want to give examples of covert contracts in a relationship. In a romantic relationship, one partner might be consistently doing all the household chores, secretly, expecting the partner to show affection through verbal acknowledgement or physical acknowledgement. When that's not expressed and you can, I can think about couples that you've seen the partner feels undervalued or ignored.
Lindsay:Absolutely, absolutely. See that with my individual clients too. Against that whole walking around in an eggshells thing, right, nobody can see who I am because it might rock the boat, it might upset the other person, tilt the scale, so to speak.
Cleveland :And in the workplace this can be an employee and I have an example of. I have a colleague who I'm not going to work for people?
Cleveland :I'm going to. I'm not going to get into her whole philosophy, but she talked about working like really hard and not being noticed for many years and that's because her boss pulled her to the side and they were like, hey, you don't speak up, right, you don't say that you want anything. It's like the saying the squeaky will gets the grease. So in the workplace it's an employee who might go above and beyond in their duties and expect a promotion or a special recognition without ever telling their super superiors like hey, I want a promotion, like hey, I want that job. And that lack of anticipated reward will lead to job dissatisfaction and disillusionment.
Lindsay:Well, I think it's hard in a workplace sometimes, yeah, but because you know, yes, you have to be. It goes back to delivering the message, kindly Right.
Cleveland :Right.
Lindsay:I mean, I, like I said, I work for myself, so I couldn't last a day in corporate America. It wouldn't work for me because I would tell everybody all about this. That's the problem I have. That's why I love interchild work, because, like, I'm going to tell you all about yourself and I'm very successful with my clients because of that, because they're just like oh, I thought, I thought you.
Cleveland :I thought you were going to say you was very successful at telling me all about myself.
Lindsay:No, because it took you like eight years to finally see it yourself. Yeah, and I still see it. I don't try to convince people of of anything. I think that we all, we all learn it about ourselves at our own pace and we all become aware of our own stuff at our own pace. And I don't feel the need to tell you, because I think that you I mean sometimes I'll say it to you, but then I'll bring it back to my own stuff as well Right, like, oh, you're a great person, oh, you're a codependent enabler. And then I'm like, oh, but my family is abusive, so right, and that's the way that we fight. But I think that we also it's almost like that equal and opposite reaction like, right, for everything screwed up that you have in your life, I have something just as screwed up in mine, but that's true.
Cleveland :I feel like that's a lot of, that's a lot of couples and you know it's a lot of folks. That's everybody, Everybody.
Lindsay:Everybody Right, and what happens is it's like you know, people know who they want to be and I think, even with this right, and it's like how do you get? I tell my clients, how do you get from where you are to where you want to be? 99.99999% of it is fear, right, there's fear in the way. So it's like how do you conquer that fear and accept yourself to then become the person you want to be but still have success in relationships and have success in your career and in your, like you know, in your friendships?
Cleveland :I want to move on and we'll quickly go this segment before we get to our final segment is. I want to just talk. I'm going to just hit these two points and then, lindsay, I'll let you pick it up from there. Is the cost of being too nice in relationships? Is it leads to unbalanced and unfulfilling relationships due to a lack of genuine communication and emotional honesty? And at work it leads to it leads to lack of career growth. Right, because you never speak up at work Like Johnson, never speaks up like Johnson, and you become known as the guy who's the pushover and who and who wants in the workplace. Do you want, do you have, somebody who's a manager or who's going to be a leader in your industry? Do you want the aggressive go-getter or do you want the hey guys, let's go get the milk and cookies while they're doing this hostile takeover?
Lindsay:Yeah, well, you know what I think about that. I like I said I don't work for people because I don't believe in like a hierarchy in organizations like that. I speak up at work. But because I'm a contractor, I have that ability and if people decide they don't want to contract to me anymore because I have boundaries and that's on them, I don't care. I mean, that's happened to me a few times in the past couple of years where the one company had the issues of the payroll and I was just they were like well, you know, you have to soften your approach. I'm like soften, well, why don't you soften my approach with the mortgage company who would like to be paid right and with the you know car finance company who would like me to pay for my car, and everyone else.
Lindsay:You know you have to have a set of boundaries where you tell people this is how I'm willing to be treated and being able to stand up for yourself, right, and, I think, for me. I've done a lot of work in that area. I think that you're still learning a little bit, oh yes.
Lindsay:And it's because you work for somebody else and so when you work for yourself you could do whatever you want. Right? I mean to a certain extent right. I mean I have a set of, like ethical and moral boundaries that I adhere to with work. I would never go in and be completely inappropriate. But I'm able to navigate difficult situations in a different way because I don't work for some company that where there's a hierarchy of people where, like this one's above me and then this one's above them and then this one's the next one, and the you know info is trickling down. I'm just like, if this doesn't work for me, then this isn't the company for me to contract to.
Cleveland :Yeah, that's true. As we move into our final segment and I really, really want you to speak to this because I feel like this is where you excel Moving beyond the nice guy syndrome, what are some key takeaways for somebody who's trying to move away from being a nice guy or a nice girl? What are some things that they that you would recommend? I'm a client, I'm sitting down with you, Lins, and I'm like Mrs Oaks I really well, they don't call me that, I don't let them.
Lindsay:But I tell them Mrs Oaks is like your mom, but no, it's just I. So I have a mandatory practice with some of my clients and the first one is to do a 40 day meditation program by Tara Brock and Jack Cornfield, and I send all of my clients a link to this free program and I tell them if you don't want to do it, okay, but I'm going to keep reminding you to do it. And I tell every single one of my clients to have one consistent practice in their life, whether it's that breath work, yoga, taking a jog right, whatever it is that works for you. Find one consistent practice in your life to drain the emotional battery right and to give you a lot of clarity, because what happens when we do those things? Stuff comes up. Was it you that said to me today that stuff comes up for you when it's quiet.
Cleveland :No, not me. No, we were talking about that today. I don't know who it was, but it wasn't me.
Lindsay:No, no, it was because it was saying you were uncomfortable, it was silence.
Cleveland :Oh, you know what? No the feedback that I got in class today is that sometimes I just you know when I am.
Lindsay:You rapid fire.
Cleveland :That I rapid fire and I don't give people enough time to sit in the silence.
Lindsay:But you then said to me, when I said to you oh, you don't like the silence because it makes you uncomfortable, Then you did tell me that when your own therapist is quiet it makes you a little anxious, right?
Cleveland :Oh, yes, that makes me. Yes, yeah, that annoys me.
Lindsay:So, like in the quiet and maybe this will be helpful for you as well in the quiet is where all the stuff comes up, right, and that's why when I go on retreat, I have such huge breakthroughs in what I want to do next, because you sit in a lot of space, you have your own room.
Lindsay:There's no cell service really, you got to hold the thing up and walk around the property, there's no Wi-Fi, but there's a lot of quiet, right.
Lindsay:There's a lot of trauma release, breath work, there's a lot of meditation, and so in those quiet moments, people are mistaken that they can't breathe or they can't meditate, because then stuff starts coming into their head, and my meditation teacher and I agree with her would argue that the stuff that's coming up for you is the very stuff that you have to work on. Right, and I tell my clients that you have to have a practice where you really tune into yourself every single day, not when you're in crisis, because then, like I told you a few weeks ago, when a client came and said, oh, my girlfriend's going to kick me out and I was going to propose to her, and I said, oh, you waited too long, right, like you cannot wait until you hit rock bottom to decide like I'm going to change. You have to have like expectations for yourself for who you want to be and how you want your life to look. And if you don't, you're never going to have that Like why do you want to live the life that someone else wants you to live?
Lindsay:Yeah, Well, that's what nice people that's what nice guys think yeah, yeah, and it's oh.
Cleveland :One of the things that Steve Harvey says Steve Harvey, and I don't listen to everything that Steve Harvey says but one of the things that he said about nice guys is the reason why women because nice guys are always like why do women love assholes? Right, and Steve Harvey says is because the asshole comes clear, he's clean, he's clear with what he wants. Right, he leaves no guesswork to it. Right, I want you, I want you, and I want you for these reasons, and I want you right now, and so, yeah, I want you. The asshole gives the woman the clear choice to say yes or no, but it's not even necessarily an asshole Right the aggressive man.
Lindsay:Right. Well, how about, just like the person who knows who they are? Right, because I don't consider you aggressive, like you know, when I think of aggressive, I think of someone who you know gets in your face and is, like you know, would raise a hand to you. Right, there's like a level of aggression. When I think of you, I think of someone who knows who they are, knows who they want, what they want, and then I know who I want.
Lindsay:Knows what they want I said I misspoke and who then is able to be assertive, Right? I think assertive is a better word than aggressive.
Cleveland :Assertive.
Lindsay:Right. This is what my expectations are and this is what I need from the relationship.
Cleveland :And that type A person. The reason why they win a lot, even though they might be miserable or they might be difficult to work with, is the type A person is clear in what they want. There's no confusion, there's no repetition. There's there's. There are other personality flaws and there and we'll talk about that another time but the reason why those guys win and oftentimes why nice guys finish last, is because they have these keys that you need to embrace or have to overcome the nice guy syndrome, as an assertive person is, an is is authentic. An assertive person sets healthy boundaries. An assertive person is self-reliant and an assertive person knows how to handle conflict.
Lindsay:Yeah, I would agree, and that's attractive to people, right? Like you know what you want, like with me, do you know what I want?
Cleveland :All the time.
Lindsay:Yeah, and I know what you want right, and I know that you're working towards your goals and that's what's attractive about being with someone who has those boundaries.
Cleveland :I think that's it for this topic. Lindsay, did you have anything to add?
Lindsay:I don't have anything to add. I just think it's work on your authenticity, learn who you are and go with it, and then attract a partner who likes that whole, complete version of yourself.
Cleveland :Yeah, To quote what Lindsay said or to follow up with Lindsay said, I would encourage each of you out there who is struggling with not being nice or wondering why things are not going your way, Sit down and reflect on your own behaviors and consider if you might have nice guy or nice girl syndrome. If you're a listener to the show, we definitely invite you to share your thoughts and experiences related to this topic. Please email us at gettonnowthedevil at gmailcom and Lindsay any other thoughts.
Lindsay:Oh, just what I said. Right, work on yourself, constantly be working to be a better version of yourself.
Cleveland :Yeah, work. It's worth the time. It is definitely worth the time and if, for anybody who's looking to read anything more on this topic, there's no more. Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert A Glover, the foundational book that delves into the nice guy syndrome and the officer strategy strategies for overcoming it, daren greatly by Brunet Brown, explores the vulnerable power and vulnerability, and authentic I can't talk today Authenticity of creating meaningful connections.
Cleveland :Because you are solo weekend was interrupted, oh, very interrupted. Boundaries by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr John Townsend, which I'm sure Lindsay probably has a copy of, provides guidance on how to I think you have a copy of it Provides guidance on how to establish healthy boundaries in various aspects of life. And the assertiveness work by Randy J Peterson offers practical exercises to improve assertiveness and communication skills. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay.
Cleveland :And this has been another episode of the Devil. You don't know if you really can't speak. Oh, I can't talk today. I think it's I'm tongue tied. I'm going to say one more time.
Lindsay:It's all the teenage parenting you've been doing.
Cleveland :The unexpected teenage parenting that we've been doing, as I like to tell the kids here. I might not have been in a room when you got made, but, luke, I'm your father now, but this has been another episode of the Devil. You don't know. If you like what you heard, please recommend this to your friends and rate and review us on iTunes, spotify or whatever platform you are listening to us on. Until the next time.