As Cleveland and I sank our teeth into the spicy gochujang tofu at Archie's, little did we realize this culinary delight would be the perfect segue into our latest podcast episode. With the wisdom of Gabor Maté's Compassionate Inquiry ringing in our ears, our conversation unravels the hidden impact of our childhood 'holes' on professional and personal spheres.
Wade through the murky dynamics of unhealthy workplaces alongside us, where similarities to dysfunctional families are too close for comfort. As we recount stories of favoritism and the downfall of poor management, the undeniable importance of leadership that inspires and supports becomes crystal clear. Expect candid tales from listeners, like Ethan, who remind us that the ripple effects of toxic work cultures can extend well beyond the office walls, testing the strength of our relationships at home.
Join us on this transformative journey as we arm you with the tools to emerge unscathed from the toxic tangles of work and life.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
As Cleveland and I sank our teeth into the spicy gochujang tofu at Archie's, little did we realize this culinary delight would be the perfect segue into our latest podcast episode. With the wisdom of Gabor Maté's Compassionate Inquiry ringing in our ears, our conversation unravels the hidden impact of our childhood 'holes' on professional and personal spheres.
Wade through the murky dynamics of unhealthy workplaces alongside us, where similarities to dysfunctional families are too close for comfort. As we recount stories of favoritism and the downfall of poor management, the undeniable importance of leadership that inspires and supports becomes crystal clear. Expect candid tales from listeners, like Ethan, who remind us that the ripple effects of toxic work cultures can extend well beyond the office walls, testing the strength of our relationships at home.
Join us on this transformative journey as we arm you with the tools to emerge unscathed from the toxic tangles of work and life.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know. Oh, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about this week? Toxic workplaces yeah, toxic workplaces, and how to survive them. But before we begin that, let's jump into our usual topics. Lindsay, tell me something interesting. You ate this week.
Lindsay Oakes:I ate once again at Archie's tap and table and I had the plant-based special of the week spicy goju cheng tofu with rice and veggies. It was awesome.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I also had the same thing. Because you had told me about it the week before, I didn't have an opportunity to get any of that tastiness, and then I made it happen.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, Alex has just blown it out of the water with his plant-based specials.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, what's so funny is, a couple of weeks ago, when we were in there, when we invented the salty peach with him, he was like I absolutely don't cook with tofu. And then you told me you had this amazing goju cheng, which was tofu. And I'm like Alex, what happened? And he was like I cook with tofu now.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, he actually pressed it, smoked it in the smoker, so he had to put it in a part of the smoker where there's no meat touching it, and then he smoked the tofu and then marinated it and cooked it. It was really good.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it was really, really, really good. What was a devil of the week for?
Lindsay Oakes:you. I'm on the struggle bus for the last couple of weeks, so I'm just really taking a deep dive in my training into my inner child.
Cleveland Oakes:If you don't mind, sharing is what has led you to the struggle bus.
Lindsay Oakes:So I am in this training with Gabor Mate called Compassionate Inquiry, and it's a year-long training, so there's eight modules, but you repeat the eight modules three times. So you do one through eight, and then you do one through eight again, and then you do one through eight again. So I think what pushed me over the edge, I made you listen to it. I must have listened to it a hundred times and it was called Triggers and Holes and it was about AH Almus's theory of holes, that you are born and all of your essence is intact. You're this perfect individual, right? You don't know any imperfection, you don't know any of the toxicity of the world. And he says in that that, like, infants are narcissistic, right, because everything is about them. They cry and someone comes and feeds them and saves the day. So, anyway, what happens is that then we start to develop holes where we're lacking self-worth from things that happen to us. So Gabor Mate used the example that when he was born, and he was an infant, his mother had just lost her parents in Auschwitz and his father was away. So his mom was experiencing all this grief when she gave birth to him and she couldn't properly care for him. And so that was the example that he used was that then he began to develop these holes in himself. Right, I'm crying, I'm not worthy, I'm not being nurtured, my mom is passing me off to a stranger, right, I don't have a bond. And so you develop these little holes every time that your needs are not met or you experience some kind of you know event that leads to trauma.
Lindsay Oakes:And he says that then you go on in your life to do things to kind of cover up the holes and to then be worthy to someone. So he used the example of so I went to become a doctor and so I can be worthy to people. And then he says when you know now, if you look at it, when you're triggered, it's because someone opens up a hole. So if you say something to me and I get upset really has nothing to do with you, but it opens up that part in me that I don't want to look at.
Lindsay Oakes:And so, yeah, so I've been doing that training and, yeah, that was really hard because it kind of got me reflecting on myself and my own faults and challenges and then how I've passed them onto the kids. And now the kids are going to need years and years of therapy from me messing them up, but then it just yeah, it just made me really sad. So, you know, I told you earlier I just needed to cry for a few minutes, but it's like I can't get out of my head and it's been really a struggle. And I said to Trish you know, when you're awake, in a world of people who aren't awake, it's very lonely.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I get that. I get that. It's one of my ex-brother-in-law used to say in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and so sometimes I get that feeling. I do understand that feeling of like, wow, everybody else here is kind of kooky, but you know I I definitely am kooky.
Lindsay Oakes:That's not the thing. It's just that it's, you know, when you're working on your stuff and you really, you know, internalize it and you kind of go within you, don't you know. The purpose is that you're actually going to start to try and heal right and heal the wound that's still very open, and a lot of times you think it's not open, but then you go back because I, you know, in particular you know I'm not going to say what it was, but I thought I was fine and healed from it but then it just keeps coming back again, because I'm like shit again. I'm like come on Right.
Lindsay Oakes:And my own therapist was like, yeah, because the wound is still open, and I'm like I don't want it to be open anymore. And I think what's so hard about it is often then people go out and they make plans and they do things and they distract themselves from feeling the pain, right, and so I have not been doing that because I've just been sitting in it and it sucks, yeah, and it's a big devil for me and it's probably going to be going on for, you know, the next year while I'm in this training. It's fine.
Cleveland Oakes:It's really important. Honestly, it really is very important to do the work. I wish that I had such a deep devil of the week in comparison to that. I do not. My devil of the week is I'm trying to finish Baldur's Gate 3 so I can move on to Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth. But in all seriousness, my devil of the week is just like just trying to find time for myself and to do things for myself and just to find that space where I can get that balance to be an individual and pursue my individual goals but then also at the same time, be a husband, a friend, a counselor and a worker and oftentimes and a dad and a dad, oh, and a dad. And Queen Mom has been special this week. Queen Mom's been special. The Republican and the young Republican in Florida has been special. The other fellow, tim Huckleberry, has been special.
Lindsay Oakes:But we do have been home from Spring Break, from college and he looks fantastic. He's chosen his major and, yeah, I'm just, I'm so happy, he really. He's like the one kid I never really worry that much about because I'm like, all right, this kid's got it.
Cleveland Oakes:Which means that he's doing that. He just means he hasn't been caught yet, that's okay.
Lindsay Oakes:I'd rather not know, I think we told him once right that when his brother tried to throw him under the bus or something, ben does it too, he does it too and we were like, well, the good thing about him is he doesn't go and blab to everybody.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, he doesn't get caught. Yeah, when Tim Huckleberry tried to throw the college drop in under the bus, I was like yo bro, well, he may do all of that, but you know what? He's never gotten caught. So I don't care to which. Tom Huckleberry was like damn it, foil again. But let's go ahead and just jump in into this topic of the week, which is we're going to talk about toxic workplaces. You work for yourself. I know you worked in corporate for a little bit, so this is something that you probably doesn't apply to you so much. I have a lot of opinions about it, oh, a lot of opinions about it. Where I work at now is a great place. It's challenging at times, you know. I wouldn't really classify it per se as as, as as as toxic.
Lindsay Oakes:I would classify your workplaces toxic.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, yeah, no, I wouldn't, because I work there and I need my job, so definitely would not classify it as I don't work there.
Cleveland Oakes:So I would definitely not classify it as toxic. I would classify it as as challenging as a challenging the workplace, which most of most of corporate America is. But let's go ahead and get into the definition of what a toxic workplace is. A toxic workplace is an environment that negatively impacts employees well-beings, productivity and morale due to harmful culture, practices or leadership. It is categorized by a consistent pattern of destructive behaviors and organizational dysfunctions that can lead to significant stress, anxiety and dissatisfaction among employees. What's interesting about a toxic workplace, too, is we can actually take this and think about a toxic home, and so some of these things are going to be definitely interchangeable. But, lindsay, what do you think about that definition of a toxic workplace?
Lindsay Oakes:I mean, I worked in corporate America for a very brief time and I would never do it again and I agree with that very much. I think you know it's this stress and anxiety and then you can't let go of it and you can't go home and just turn everything off when you get there and it just leads to such negative thinking, right, and it really, I think, impacts people's self-esteem and self-worth as well.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah, some signs and symptoms of a toxic environment are high turnover rates. I always tell folks, when you go someplace, go to a new job. One of the things I learned many years ago when I was in a training program, in an adult training program to switch careers was you need to, when you need to go on Glassdoor and you need to go on all these websites and find out what the corporate, what the corporate, what the corporate culture is. So does this place have a high turnover rate? Is there widespread employee burnout and is there a culture of fear?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I mean, I think I don't. I mean I do know a lot of people who work in the corporate sector and I think that there's certain companies that are definitely not like that, but there's a lot more that are. And I think I think you're going to run into anywhere where there's a hierarchy and someone tells somebody else what to do and then they tell somebody else and then that person tells you right, and there's always this I'm better than you are because I'm higher up than you are, so you need to listen to me. So there's like a lot of like power and control too.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, there's a, yeah, there's a lot of power control. One thing that I've come to learn, especially as and I'm thinking about previous jobs and other places that I've worked, is that a lot of people bring their baggage with them to work and, unlike you, who you started this segment about, talking about doing the work, a lot of folks bring that, all that toxicity, that dark energy, with them to the workplace and it just really spreads around.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, when you're not happy in your life, you bring your stuff with you most of the time unless you do the inner work. And I happen to do the inner work a lot and I told you it's very uncomfortable, so I know why people don't do it. But at the same time, I mean, if you're going to bring it there and then you're in a situation where it's toxic and you're miserable, then you know why. Wouldn't it spill out into that environment and onto the other people you work with?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and once again, like I said, a lot of things that we're going to talk about here can you can also apply to families, right? Some of the signs and symptoms of a toxic workplace or poor communication, negative leadership styles, high stress and burnout, bullying, lack of a team spirit and low morale and engagement and unfair practices. What do you think about any one of those topics?
Lindsay Oakes:No, I agree, because the difference, right, when you work in an environment like that and then you work for yourself, like I do, is that, you know, for the main part, I communicate in the way that I want to communicate. You know, you're very much manipulated when you work in corporate America, right, and you have to follow rules. You and I both know I'm not good at following rules, so it wouldn't work for me to work there, but you know, of course, poor communication, right, as you have a hierarchy. The message is, like, you know, given to somebody else and then given to somebody else and then given to somebody else, and there's always something that gets lost in translation.
Lindsay Oakes:I think that a lot of times, people that are in these higher positions or these leadership roles are, you know, not necessarily very kind and they don't treat people well.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know, and I think that there's no real reciprocity, right, because the bottom line is is that you need to do your job. So the person that's up on the top sending down the orders, right, and the assignments, should be treating people the way that they would like to be treated. But a lot of times they're treated a certain way because of the role they're in, and then the people that are in the lower roles, right the peons, so to speak, are treated poorly. So I think you know, and I think that a really good leader would be more collaborative, more communicative, right would ensure, actually, that none of these things are taking place, right? No, not like high stress and burnout, not allowing certain behaviors to occur. You know that, I think that that's you know. I mean, all of those things would fall under actual positive leadership, right? So, of course, negative leadership probably is the cause of most of this stuff.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I want to also flip this too, because I want to talk about toxic workplaces and maybe even a little bit of toxic family. How would you see these same things impact a family negatively?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh well, I mean, you know you have to always have reciprocity and collaboration and families, right, compromise. And so if you have one person and I see this when I do family therapy, but I if you have one person in the family who's calling over all the shots and talking over everybody and controlling everybody else, you know that feels very much like toxic behavior and bullying, right, that there's not a kind of unity amongst members in the family. And you know there's not, it's not healthy communication, because other people can never get a say in anything, right, right, so it's very similar.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and it makes me think about negative leadership styles. Right, and a negative leadership style and I can come this is really going to be an interchangeable talk with, because a workplace is a family, right? These, unfortunately, the people that we spend the majority of our time with in our lives, are the people that we work with, and so they become our work family, but then we don't want to take these things home to our actual by my own work family you are a family of one.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, but then that's why you're mostly happy when you come home at the end of the day. But we want, we don't. We want to make sure that we don't take these negative leadership styles, right? You don't want to be a single mom or a single dad, or even a married couple, and you're negative leaders, right? The Bible says a father, a good father, doesn't aggravate his children, or good parents don't aggravate their children, right? So so when you are in a role of leadership speaking of what you're saying, lindsay either it be at work, where you might be a big boss at work, or you're a big boss at home you have to really work with your team in a way, or your family or your team in a way that that fosters you know, like love. You know, fosters love, cooperation, if it makes sense, even in a corporate world.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and you want the reciprocity because, especially in a family, but even in the workplace, right. If something negative happens, you can't be afraid to go to somebody and have an open dialogue about it. Right, and that happens in families a lot too. I always tell my kids I would rather you tell me a bad truth than a good lie, right, and let's have open communication, because if ever something happens and you need me, I want you to be able to come to me.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and one of the biggest problems in both a toxic workplace and a toxic family is unfair practices right, which is inconsistent policies, enforcement of rules, a lack of accountability, especially on the parental or managerial level, and favoritism right, let's talk about that.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think, in regards to like policies and rules, it's different between corporate America or, you know, when you work for someone else versus when you're in a family situation, because I always do also say what's fair is not always equal Right, If you have kids that have different needs, right, you know, due to whatever right I mean because we have, you know, one who has some, you know, struggles with learning, disability, and so you know what we expect from him might be different than what we expect from you know. First example the Queen Mum who, let's say, really pulled it together. By the way, she has straight A's and one B plus. So, thank God we're over that hurdle. And I think, also like, in regards to like, well, favoritism, I mean, everyone probably has like a favorite person in the family, but I think in the workplace I always say it's about who you know, right. Right, it's most often about who you know. You build connections with people and then you use those connections to benefit yourself.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, like in a good family or even in a great workplace, it should be about what's. Everyone should be equitable, and I do agree with you 100% that different folks have different needs, and so I can't treat Tom the same way that I treat Sarah, and I can't treat Sarah the same way that I treat Nancy. That would actually not be fair, right, as I learned many years ago, because you have to approach everyone differently. But there should be a consistency in your style. It should be a consistency in your approachability as both a parent and as a manager at work. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
Cleveland Oakes:So we're going to move on to our second segment. This is a. This is a listener email that I'm going to read, that we received a couple of weeks ago, which got us really thinking about this topic. Some of the names, and obviously the names in the workplace, is going to be changed, but I'm going to read, I'm going to. I might read the whole thing. I might truncate it a little bit, but I'm going to go ahead and just read this.
Cleveland Oakes:It's very long you can truncate away, go ahead. So this is Ethan's story. When Ethan first set foot at his job, he felt like he arrived. The energy was electric, he said, the stakes were high and the promise was intoxicating. And I think we've all had had jobs like that, where we whoo. I remember my first job many years ago at a delivery company which will be name nameless. That I was like this was exciting and I, like Ethan, was like wow, this was, you know, like this was these.
Cleveland Oakes:These early days were good, but then there were warning signs. And Ethan goes on to say that while leadership was charismatic, they wielded their authority like a weapon and praise was scarce, criticism was everywhere and it built a culture of fear. Right. And Ethan goes on to say that the environment was cutthroat and he watched his own moral compass begin to falter. And here's the problem, right, with a toxic workplace is that it began to seep into his personal life.
Cleveland Oakes:Ethan goes on to say my home, which was once an extension of peace and joy, became extension of his workplace despair. Conversations with his partner, because he was so miserable about work, were turned into venting sessions and then the sounds of his children's laughter, which used to bring comfort, only brought you know, like him annoyance, and it was like a relentless pressure. Eventually, ethan decided to leave the job, which was one of the hardest things he had ever did. But he had to make a choice between his workplace and his family. And even then Ethan goes on to say that the road to recovery was long. It was fought with challenges. He had to go to therapy, he had to work to rebuild the relationships with his family and he slowly learned to find joy again from those everyday moments. Lindsay, what do you think about that? As somebody who even opened up this, this, this segment of the show, talking about some of the challenges that you faced, what do you think about Ethan's story and how Ethan had to escape that toxic workplace because it was impacting his family?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think most people can't really escape the toxic workplace often because they're not able to do so financially Right. So that's challenging Because you have to be able to have, like you know, enough money or resources to leave, Right. So that's why I think people often feel trapped. But I also think it's communicating right when you come home to your partner, it's being able to let your you know partner know what's going on for you, because you need to have someone that can hold space for you and give you the time and the space that you need to kind of recover from the day, right, or to shift your mental space.
Lindsay Oakes:Criticism is is a huge, huge thing in the workplace. You can do 99 things right and one thing wrong, and you never get praised for any of the 99 things that you did correctly. And that is one of the things that drives me crazy about workplaces like that, where you're working for other people Right, Because you know earlier, when you talked about morale, morale would be a lot higher if someone said hey, Cleave, you did a great job on this project, Thank you so much. Like you hit it out of the park.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and then there's even a way to give feedback in a way that, hey, when hey Cleave, you messed up, but let me show you how you could have done better right.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but it can't always be the negative right, because I think what happens a lot is people, and you too. If something goes wrong at work, it's almost like you go back to being a child, because it's like you get in trouble. You get in trouble for something you did and that's just gross and weird.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I've caught myself and I'll give this example where my boss corrected me just the other day because something went wrong and I started yelling at somebody, right, and he was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up, we don't do that right, you know. And I caught myself, right, and it was going back to Ethan. I don't need the pressure of my job to make me act out of character, right, and I don't need the pressure, or the perceived pressure, of something make me act out of character, not only with a coworker that doesn't deserve it. Or come home and bring that home. And, lindsay, so I want to ask you a question, like looking at Ethan's story, when you sit down with a couple, or if you sit down in a couple in Ethan's case, what would be some advice that you would give to a couple that the workplace, that that the workplace is spilling into the home?
Lindsay Oakes:The way that I, you know, address it with people, because a lot of what I hear from clients are well, I should do this, I should do this, I should do this. Everyone talks about benefits and all of these things, right, Medical benefits, benefits of working in places, pensions, a union, all these things, and it's like, but they don't really like their job, and so it's. You know why should you follow this linear path, or this path that someone told you right to follow? Because, at the end of the day, your own happiness is going to be better for yourself and in your relationship. And if you hate a job every single day and now you need to, you know spend 25 or 30 years there to get all these benefits that you went there for right. I mean, you're talking about like living an inauthentic life for the next 25 or 30 years, Like you couldn't pay me enough money to be a classroom teacher. Remember that time I did it for like a week.
Cleveland Oakes:You did it for like a week and a half and I was like out of here, Bye.
Lindsay Oakes:No, you can't. You couldn't pay me to do that, because there's also no autonomy. When you work for other people, you have to follow a set of rules, and we know I am not good with rules. I would not be good in your workplace because I would have been fired after the first day when I told everyone about themselves. And I, when I was in corporate America for a very short time, because I was basically using it to pay for grad school, they, they, I worked.
Lindsay Oakes:I mean oh, it was crazy, and I mean I've been out of there long enough so I could tell some stories. I won't say where it was, but I was like an executive assistant for two partners and one of them was just, I mean, he was just rude, so he would come to the cubicle, not even though his, so the offices were kind of on the perimeter with the windows and then the cubicles with the admin were in the middle. So he would come out and go pst, pst, and I'd look over and he'd slap, a, post it on the door and then slam the door.
Cleveland Oakes:That's crazy.
Lindsay Oakes:And then I would go running over to get my little post it note to tell me what I needed to do next, and it would be like go get me a snack. That's what it would say. Go get me a snack. Oh, like I didn't really realize that I worked in a restaurant, okay, so it was stuff like that.
Lindsay Oakes:And then I had another boss who wife also worked there and she would be looking for him all day, all day, like calling Do you know where he is? Do you know where he went? I'm like he said I don't know, maybe he's in the bathroom, I don't know. Like I don't, I don't police him and follow him around. Well, what's on his calendar today? Finally, I had to say to the dude please tell your wife to stop calling me all day, and if you don't pick up it means you're busy, like ridiculous. And I'm like I don't come here to, like, you know, be the boss of everybody and you know, tell you where your husband is. And baby said him for you. And I don't come here to serve you snacks because you're too lazy to walk, you know, around the hall to the kitchen. So, needless to say, it didn't last very long there.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, sounds like you had poor leadership, right? That's what it sounds like you had there.
Lindsay Oakes:It wasn't the leadership for the admin staff. Actually it was not poor. The problem is is that you know, when you're working for these really high powered people who make a lot of money, they don't treat you well because all that they can see is what they need to do next. And I'm not saying that about everybody, because there are some people in those positions even that I know that are very kind people and would never treat the staff like that. But you know, I think for the most part, what I experienced was this sense of entitlement.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I mean we're going to pivot here for a second and we're going to not necessarily even talk about it from the workers role, but now we're going to talk about it from the leadership role. But that is important as we transfer, as we, as we go on to the road transition for that word.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I was looking for that as we transition to the role of leadership, because when I studied both sociology and management in college, there are managers and there are leaders, right, and sometimes what happens in corporate America and in families also is a good manager is not necessarily a good leader and there are quality differences between managers and a leader, where manager just is, like you know, gets make sure the work gets done, and then a leader if I just came, I just came in, saw a dune last night dune part two, which is great is Paula tradies right. So a manager is fade.
Lindsay Oakes:if you, if you see the movie, I don't know anything about what you're talking about, but go ahead. Yeah, well, listen to, because I was not with you. I was out for dinner with a friend.
Cleveland Oakes:So for the millions of you who saw a dune part two last night millions of you have seen it A manager is fade fade. Is this evil guy who works for the Harkonins, who was like, just get it done? Yeah, we got to make it happen. And Paula tradies is the inspiring leader of the of the Fremen right, and so a leader understands what it is to get people to work in. A manager is the guy that just goes out, work of these buzz, buzz and put this, put this stuff, put the stick it note on the window, go get me snacks.
Lindsay Oakes:So it's almost not even call it a leadership role. They should just call it an authoritarian role in most places, because that's what that person is.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right and leadership is not. Author. Author. Author, tear off, say it again for me Authoritarian is not authoritarian, I cannot talk to you didn't even drink, no no, no, I think it's my mushroom coffee is not authoritarian right. A leadership leads and it's inspiring right. When you think of good leaders, you think of a Martin Luther King, you think of a Malcolm X, you think of a Jesus Christ, you think of Gandhi, and these were guys who are leaders.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and a good leader also. You know they support their employees and they back them up, and I have actually in my profession, seen both types. Right, I did have one supervisor for evaluations where I contract out. Who did, you know, call me and accuse me of something that actually didn't happen. But because it was the pressure coming from above her, and that's what I was saying earlier. Right Now she no longer works there. I actually saw her last week and she's so happy in her new job and it's like a completely different version of her. And then I've had people like Miss Betty may she rest in peace who would go to a meeting, and if someone said the evaluation team said something or did something, miss Betty would like no, that not my evaluators, because I don't hire people that do that. Right.
Cleveland Oakes:So it's like that support from above is also very important, right, and so let's go on to that which is the role of leadership, and so if you are in a workplace that you manage or you lead, or if you're in a family that you manage or you lead, this is, this is for you, right? So examples of poor leadership are authoritarian as, as, as Lindsay's pointed out, a micromanaging. Don't you hate micromanagers? Oh, I hate micromanagers. If you ask me to do something, just let me do it.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, let me do it.
Cleveland Oakes:And let me do it my way or even worse than a micromanager, I would have to say, is a disengaged manager, which is, which is I learned in school was a laissez faire manager and a disengaged manager, and a disengaged manager is one that is like Cleveland. I need you to do this, and then it gives you very vague or no instructions right and then probably doesn't even remember they asked you to do it.
Lindsay Oakes:and then something happens and then you get in trouble for it because you took the you know the role or the position, the task from the person. Yeah, no, I hate micromanaging. Now, I used to have a woman at an agency that I would, that was a micromanager. She would call me at seven in the morning, seven, 30 in the morning. I refused to pick up the phone, which would drive her nuts, and then it would spur a text. And because, all? Because she wanted a report.
Lindsay Oakes:And I'm like, first of all, no, I have very good boundaries, you know. So before nine and after five you could try me, but you're not going to get me. And on the weekend, yeah, you can ask for something and you might see it Monday, but you're never going to see it on Saturday or Sunday, even if it's all done and sitting here. Because I don't and because if I respond once, they're going to expect me to respond every time. So I refuse to respond, and so I.
Lindsay Oakes:But the micromanaging piece makes me crazy because it's like just let me do it my way. And I had to put this woman in her place and then she still called me and then I blocked her and the only way she could access me was email. But that's how she accessed me after that and then she left the company and she was upset that I didn't respond to her goodbye email. So she called me because by then I had unblocked her because we had told her she could call me for something. And after she asked permission in the email and she was upset that I didn't acknowledge her departure from the company and so she called me out. She said didn't you hear that I'm leaving? I said oh yeah, I did. Good luck to you. I don't know what you want me to do. Like a song and dance. You have no respect for my boundaries. You're very rude and pushy and meddlesome. So good luck, I will not miss you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it sounds like your advice would be what. Someone came into my workplace as a trainer a few years ago and said manage up. So if you don't necessarily like the way that leadership is running things, then you still respect your leadership. But you're like this is my boundary and I'm going to manage up.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I agree, I call it vibrate up or vibrate out. Like I operate at a certain vibration and I'm not going to come down to your level. So you either vibrate up or you vibrate right out of my life, that's it.
Cleveland Oakes:That's it. Let me ask you a couple of questions. So what are your ideas or what would you like to see, or what would you recommend for a good leader in either the workplace, in both the workplace and in the family? What are some aspects that make somebody a good leader?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think, relinquishing expectations for one and having an open dialogue with people. So, yes, there's rules and boundaries, but also allowing people to have some flexibility with those and being willing to compromise. I think the biggest one is recognition for positive instead of always. Recognition for, like, I can't talk to you today for the negative or the criticism for things that happen, because at the end of the day, it's like if you look at a math problem, there's probably two or three ways to get to the solution, so it doesn't always have to be the way that this person says.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I agree. Also, too. You just lead by example. One of the things that I'm and it's gotten me in trouble from time to time in multiple places is I'm in the suit and tie and if I see my guys working or the guys that work for me working, I will go down and I will help. I have mopped the floor. I have mopped the floor. You've moved furniture. I have moved furniture.
Lindsay Oakes:And you've gotten yelled at for doing it.
Cleveland Oakes:And but that is my thing, where I like to lead by example. I am not going to ask you, as a leader, to do something that I would not do myself. One of my former managers used to say if you want soldiers to die for you, you have to give them the reason why, and you have to have them want to die for you. You can rule by fear and you could lead by fear, but let me tell you, when you lead by fear, the minute that those soldiers get a chance to take you out, they're going to take you out.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, they're going to storm you, but if you lead.
Lindsay Oakes:It's going to be like 20 against one, Just like with kids. Yeah, you can only do so much. But if you're very authoritative with kids and you are not having open dialogue in the house and compromising and you only say no and you never say yes, what do they do? I mean they're going to sneak out, they're going to go and do things that they shouldn't do and they're all going to team up and they're all going to do this Because I have to say we're pretty lucky Because our kids are really very good. I know that they do things I'm not naive in that way Because I know what I did when I was their age but I know that they do things. But they are also open with us about what they do and we have a lot of open dialogue.
Cleveland Oakes:So and you want to lead as both a parent and as a manager at work. You want to inspire people. I want people to not fear me. I don't necessarily need you to love me either, but I want you to respect me and know that I have your best interests at heart. Therefore, I need you to. That makes you loyal to me. Yeah, honestly.
Lindsay Oakes:But you know, the goal should always be that you want your kids to be an even better parent than you were. Right, and I think that you want to take, when you grow into adulthood, you want to take what you learned from your parents and say you know what. This is what I would do differently, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And I'm transitioning that back to work Is just like you want your kids to be better than you. We had this conversation in the office the other day. I want my workers to be better than me. I want to take you, and every great manager that I've had my current manager has that philosophy that he wants to take you, he wants to mold you and he wants you to go spin off in your own direction and grow right.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and every role is essential in the workplace, right, the women who clean the bathroom and clean the offices are equally as important to those people that are making millions of dollars a year, right, and because, let me tell you, those people would not touch the toilet with a brush. Right, probably at work or at home. So when you have these people coming in, their role is essential too. Yes, and so you should be treating them respectfully, especially knowing you're not going to do it yourself.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, many years ago. That makes me think. Many years ago I had an opportunity to talk to Steve Kappus, who at one point was an executive of one of the major networks. And Steve Kappus said you need to respect everyone in this building, be they the president of this company down to a cleaner right, because you do not know who people know. And he said I know, for instance, that he worked at a company where the president of the company went to high school with one of the janitors and the president of the company regularly would go consult that janitor about people's behavior before he promoted them. And if the janitor was like, yeah, that guy's an idiot, then you know who didn't get a promotion, that guy.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, but that's good morale in the workplace, right, and that's one of the things I love. When you go to say, like the Caribbean, right, you don't see that difference in economic status between people impacting their social interactions, right, you can go out and the sanitation worker is sitting next to the doctor and they're playing dominoes and they're having a beer, and that's what I love about that is, when you go to these places and we'll have a whole episode on this right, but you're not. When you go to those places, they don't have the programming that we have in society because they don't have access to what we have. Right, even though they have Wi-Fi and they have technology, it's not still to the extent that we have, or they just don't care because it's not as important to them. It's become important to us. So when you go to those places, there's more equality, and when you go to the workplace, there's all this inequality, but the inequality is actually created by the people there.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's definitely not leading by example. No, there are a couple other topics I want to go through here, but here's another one that I think is damaging both in the workplace and in families is when there's no clear values and expectations. Right, what do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh for sure. I mean, you need to know what is expected of you, but then there also has to be compromise, right? So I think the expectations and the compromise go hand in hand. That also is the case in relationships.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, 100%. How about this one? Address issues promptly. What do you think about that, in both the workplace and at home?
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, I do agree with that, because I don't think that you should let something go or do what my old boss did that time, where she texted me on a Friday about something that happened and I said, well, I called. And then I called her because I was like I'm not going to let this go until Monday and she was texting me back I'm not available, I'm in the salon. Well, you texted me about this from the salon, so I said to her this is going to make me anxious or this is going to be on my mind all weekend. So that's not fair. And if it's really not a big deal, then you should not have brought it up on a Friday afternoon. She called me. She called me right back Because if something happens and it's serious enough to warrant a discussion, you can't wait weeks, right.
Lindsay Oakes:And that's a struggle that we had in our relationship in the beginning, when we met, was that you would be upset that I did something, or I'd be upset that you did something, but it would come out like six weeks later, right. And that's what happens when people argue and don't have this open communication. It's like all of a sudden they dump a bucket of complaints out on the other person and it's like but how did I? If I knew that bothered you, I wouldn't have done it in 15 different ways.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, Also too. Another good point here is to promote psychological safety, and I think that's important once again, both in families and in teams. As a mental health expert, how do you think it's and how can you promote psychological safety?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think just being kind and compassionate with people and empathetic because psychological safety really comes from your own work that you do on yourself, right, nobody that has poor mental health, right, or severe anxiety or depression or is struggling with all of this cyclical or negative thinking, is entering a workplace in a clear space.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, that's psychologically safe. And so you have to constantly do work on yourself in order to be able to feel psychologically safe. Because if you go to the workplace and you take care of yourself, then I always joke about it, but I always say I have like a psychic firewall around me that goes in all directions, so I only let people in a little bit and I don't let people permeate that space. And you're not psychologically safe within yourself if you're taking on stuff from other people and if you're allowing what other people say and do and how they act to impact you. Because, at the end of the day, the only thing that you can control is what you do, say, think, all of your actions, behaviors, thoughts. But if somebody came to you at the workplace and you were so triggered by it, like I said earlier, right, it would open up a part of you that didn't feel like you had self-worth in that area rather that you were insecure in, so you have to learn not to take on what other people do.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, one of the things. And Dr Gabor talked about it in one of his oh love him. In one of the lectures you let me listen to he called it dark energy and even though he was talking about as a healer, but he was like we absorb the dark energy. Go tell the audience about that.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, well, we do, because when you're around people taking in all of their stuff, right, then of course you're going to absorb that, and that's where self-care comes into play. That's for me where meditation and breathing and taking time by myself to be with my thoughts and to really feel the emotions that are coming up for me that's where it kind of that protects me from that, because it allows me to separate what's mine and what's not mine. But we do, and as a therapist and as like healers often do, my own therapist said to me last week like people are talking to you all the time, no wonder you don't want to talk to anybody this week. She's like, when somebody is talking to you all day, right, and a lot of clients do come and unload, right, especially when you just get to know them, because you've, you know, the first few weeks you're establishing rapport, they're dumping. You know 20, 30, 40, 50 years of their own stuff on you, right. How do you separate yourself from that, right, and how do you not have any kind of transference or counter-transference?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%, though just one more of the topic I want to talk about before we move on is diverse. Foster inclusion and diversity right In a home is, you know, the young man?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, we have a very diverse home.
Cleveland Oakes:Very diverse home. I used to say with my original set that I live with Clarence Thomas, mike Tyson, marilyn Monroe and Thomas Jefferson. Now you can add the Queen, mum, the college drop-in and Tim Huckleberry. Everybody's not gonna do things your way, right? And so what you have to do as a parent is foster inclusion and diversity, right, lindsay? How would you suggest you would do that in the home?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think letting. Well, we let the kids do a lot in the house, right, as long as they adhere to a specific set of rules. And our rules are few, right? No drugs, no drinking, no smoking and no sex in this house, right?
Cleveland Oakes:And Except for the people who pay.
Lindsay Oakes:That is. I have actually said that to them. There's only two people in the house that can have sex and it's not any of them, which yielded a lot of grunts and groans and a lot of gagging from the Queen Mum. But you have to let kids learn right, and we talked about this in another episode a while ago. But when you don't let your kids have autonomy and do things and make mistakes for themselves and then learn from those mistakes, all you're doing is preventing the inevitable that they are going to make the mistakes later. So we're very much. We let the kids do quite a bit and you know we do have.
Lindsay Oakes:You know, and that's what's important in the home, and it's definitely not saying no all the time. I would say it's no when it's a hard no, and sometimes it can be a maybe. If there's a compromise, like if it's a no, you can't do this, but maybe we can come up with an alternative plan. And then there's the yeses, and that's why when the kids get upset if I say no, they get so frustrated. But I'm like you get to do a lot of things.
Cleveland Oakes:And it's celebrating the differences. One thing I always try hard not to do as a parent is well, your brother did this and your sister did that and your cousin did this is everybody's different right. So celebrate the difference. Now to flip this back to the workplace. This is not microaggressing people. This is not talking to your, your, your coworker from Puerto, from Puerto Rico, in like, in, in, in your poor Espanol. This is not walking up to me, as some coworkers have done in previous jobs in the past my man and giving you like the black handshake and giving me the the sole breath.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I'm ridiculous, that is not. That is not diversity and inclusion.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, let's talk about awareness on our next episode, right? Because, like, that is the like biggest case of lack of awareness.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but we're all guilty of it from time to time. We sure, yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:But in in different ways. Not, I mean, that's really outright like craziness.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the things I say about fostering and inclusion and diversity is remember several years ago H&M got into a big trouble with the ad with the little, with the little black kid. So it's a little black kid and he had a T-shirt on that said the greatest monkey in the jungle.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, oh yes.
Cleveland Oakes:Something like that, and and and. Here's the thing is if that would have been a diverse room, there would have been some folks in there that would have been like I don't. I don't think this is.
Cleveland Oakes:I don't think this is good, right. It's kind of like when Trader Joe's had Trader Ming's and Trader Jose's right. There might not have been somebody in the room, and I'm not necessarily saying I disagreed with those, but it's it's. It's when you have one set of people with one point of view, you are going to have blind spots. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, absolutely, because your experience as a black, experiences as a black man, are very different than my experiences as a white woman, and there's some things that I'm never, ever going to understand or relate to.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and vice versa. Right, there's going to be a lot of the same. I'm going to just run through this next piece real quick.
Lindsay Oakes:I mean a lot of people do say that you're the whitest black man they know.
Cleveland Oakes:But my kids. I've had multiple. I had my kids say that all the time. I had a colleague once tell me a young white girl and it's very funny. It was like you're like a white guy's bad impersonation of a black man, of a black man, and I just laughed my ass off. Yeah, it's funny because it's true.
Cleveland Oakes:But I'm going to move on to this next piece that we'll run through, and this is legal and ethical considerations. Why do you not want to have a toxic workplace? Well, one, you're going to run into harassment and discrimination claims. Two, you're going to be in violation of labor laws. If you are someone who is a shady, shiesty person at retaliation retaliates, and my company has a clear policy against retaliation. That is. That is something that we train in every, every, every year to go through the company policies. These are clear violations. You know these are clear things negligent hiring and retentions and you'll be in trouble for breach of contract If you work for a good employer. A good employer is is going to not only be mindful of these things, they're going to make you mindful of these things.
Lindsay Oakes:The problem I have with this is that I actually don't think anyone really ever gets in trouble that does these things Right. Sometimes it does, yeah. Very rarely, though Right. Often what happens is these people that are creating the toxic workplace have been there for years and years and years, and they continue to be there for years and people complain about them and nothing gets done.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah that is true. That is true, that happens. But it goes back to the case where I said that person and it's easy to say quit. But one thing I appreciate about the young people I wish you would quit young people.
Cleveland Oakes:I got to do a lot of editing this episode of the young people, of the young people that I work with. Is that a lot of the young people I work with are like no, I had a young fella that didn't get what he needed for his family Some a little while ago and he was like, ah, it's not going to work for me. I appreciate you. Nothing but love for you, but this job is going to do for me what I need.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I mean I had a situation last week with work and I work for myself, but I had received a referral and it was in a neighborhood that and it's my own stuff, right, because last time I was in that neighborhood it was a crime broke out and the cops had to escort me back to my car and the police office who said it really not safe for you, as a white woman, to be walking around in this neighborhood when you don't live here and you don't belong. And I got another referral for that neighborhood and I scheduled it via a video call and the case coordinator was okay with it at first and then all of a sudden, one day she's like the mother doesn't want a video, I'm like, but the mother scheduled two video calls with me already and so she was like well, are you going to go in person? And I said to her well, did you go in person? And she didn't answer me because she didn't, because she works remotely. Yeah, so you know it's, um, you know it's.
Lindsay Oakes:It's hard in those kinds of situations too, right, but I didn't feel very supported in that. But I ended up just giving it back and saying find someone else to go. And you know what they still haven't, because it's not a safe place for you know, and that's and that's very sad, right, because families shouldn't be treated differently because of where they live, and you know we can talk about that but because there's a really great socioeconomic divide in New York city and you know I, really, you know me I'll go anywhere. But in this particular situation, I just felt very unsafe and I felt like I was attacked because I said no, I'm not going to go there.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, no, no, yeah, and it goes back to what I said much earlier. Um is, I'm not going to ask you to do something that I wouldn't do myself, Right?
Lindsay Oakes:But you say that all the time, like you're willing to go and clean a toilet if you have to, or change a light bulb right or a vacuum in office. Yeah, if that's what it's going to take to get it done, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And that's what I do. I try to get it done, and I get it done here too, oh my God, okay. So as we come up on our last topic, which is strategies for coping and for change, lindsay I'm going to talk about, I'm going to kick this one to you which is your favorite. So, if you are in a toxic workplace or in a family that might be getting a little bit out of control, what's the first thing that you can do? It is set your set the boundaries.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, Sorry, I didn't know. I was I. You were said you were going to ask me a question and then you just kind of kicked it with your finger wagging in the air, Cause you I don't know what you're asking, Because every week you stay setting boundaries. Oh, I love boundaries. Yeah, Absolutely.
Cleveland Oakes:Boundaries are really important and that's really where there's a lot of problems in any relationship family relationships, working relationships, intimate relationships yeah, here's my favorite one that I like to talk about, which is and we even talked about it in my grad school class this week is focus on what you can control. Concentrate on your work and responsibilities, and focus on the aspects of your job that you enjoy and can control, rather than the toxic elements that you can't change. What do you think about that, Lindsay, about focus on control?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, Because you really can't change anybody or anything. And let's face it, at the level you are, unless you're at the highest level, they don't really care what you have to say. So you can, you know, you really just all you can do is what you can do. Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:As I as I always tell the kids and I tell anybody, and I tell those two people at work too, and I got to discipline somebody at work. I'm like, hey, when you're Kanye West, even then you could do whatever you want. When you Donald Trump, you could kind of say whatever you want, but even then there's repercussions to your actions.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and I always tell the kids well, when you pay all the bills and have your own house, then sure you can go ahead and do that there, but you can't do it here.
Cleveland Oakes:You can't do it there. If you are also in a toxic workplace or in a toxic situation, you can seek support.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, everybody should have support anyway, because you know how I feel about going to therapy and having you know practices to keep your nervous system, you know, in a more relaxed state. But everybody should have support.
Cleveland Oakes:This is one for this one is strictly for work. I mean because if you're documenting everything at home, then you have a problem. Document everything right. Keep records, keep emails, keep messages and notes from meetings. Documentation will be crucial for you If, because you have to set a case. I know, many years ago I had a colleague who his boss, you know, falsified a whole bunch of stuff about him, framed him for some stuff, and this guy had no. He was like boom, boom, here go all the receipts, here's the email, here's this email, here's that. So that piece is very, very important.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I document every phone call and text that I send to parents because what they'll say when they don't respond to me. The coordinator will call and be like, oh, the parent hasn't heard from you. I'm like, oh really, and so I'm still put them on the phone with me and I'll say to the parent like oh, mrs Smith, I called you and left voicemails on these dates and texts on these dates. And I'll say, I'll say why don't you put us on hold while you check and then come back and 100% of the time, oh, I see it now. Oh, I thought so. And then the coordinator's like what? I'm like I told you, I didn't lie, I do my job and I do keep track. I document every call and every text that I send.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, here's another one for you that you've been always trying to get me on, and I talked to my own clients about this, which is practice self care. What about that lens?
Lindsay Oakes:Yep, if you do not practice self care, you become a menace to society. I need to say no more.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, here's another one Use company resources. If you have a EA AP, I'll plan. Or if you, yeah, eap plan or counseling service or mental health days something Lindsay's always trying to get me to take and I'll take one eventually. These resources are important. Yeah, I agree.
Lindsay Oakes:But we speak up.
Cleveland Oakes:What do you think about that lens?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I always speak up, so, but you have to speak up kindly, because I'm not. As often times if you're speaking up about something that happened, it may not be received so well and that's why it's important to put it kind of back on yourself. Which I talked about with one of my own clients who had a struggle with work last week and she was like I'm just going to ask for a new boss and I was like, or you could say to your manager these are the things that are not working for me. You know I need to be paid on time, which means my boss needs to sign off on my notes or whatever it is, and I, you know, I said to her that's a better way than just going in there and demanding something is to bring it back to yourself.
Lindsay Oakes:This is really stressful for me. My notes aren't getting signed off on on time. You know the availability, you know is messing up my schedule, whatever it is, and she also happens to have other responsibilities. But you have to speak up, but you have to speak up kindly. So it's not like you did this and you did that. It needs to be like. This is what's happening for me. How can we solve the problem?
Cleveland Oakes:And it goes back to that first point about boundaries, right, Speaking up as part of boundaries. You know, sometimes and I had a meeting many years ago at another place where an executive said you know, you guys are scared to speak up, that boy over there, he ain't scared to speak up and he gets what he what he wants and he gets what he needs right, Interesting.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:So the squeaky will gets the grease. I know when you first, yeah, when you first met me, you know I was a people pleaser. You know I still kind of have people pleasing tendencies. However, now I'm a little more selfish If some, if I paid for something or funny thing, as you've always been selfish at home.
Lindsay Oakes:You've never been a people pleaser to me, because you feel safe here and you know I'm not leaving, so you can have all of your negative flaws here and keep working on them.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's a wonderful thing, just like you speak up, but I see.
Lindsay Oakes:I do. I have a lot of opinions. I will own that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but no. But that's good though, because you speaking up has helped me to change. And then it's if you as long as Lindsay had said before, if you speak up in a polite but firm manner and say, hey, that is, I cannot be kind not nice. Yeah, be kind. If you speak up in a kind because niceness is perceived as weakness, I get it.
Lindsay Oakes:It's fake.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but if you speak up in a kind yet firm manner and say this is something I cannot do, what's the worst that can happen?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I want to actually segue, because I said be kind, not nice, and you could tell when people are being fake nice. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and versus actually people who are kind, and I actually read something the other day about when people are being fake like nice. You can actually read it on their face If you look at the upper part of their face, because kindness and happiness comes through the whole face. But when you're just being nice, it's like kind of this fake, weird smile on your mouth. Yeah, the eyes are dead. The eyes don't.
Lindsay Oakes:The eyes have this weird look in them. It was very interesting. I have to find it, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:The eyes don't yeah, the eyes don't twinkle. You could smile with your. You could smile with your mouth.
Lindsay Oakes:It would be like this.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, you can smile with your mouth, but your face yes.
Lindsay Oakes:But your face, not like anyone could see what I just did yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:But no, no, that was definitely the definition of a fake smile. Develop an exit, Develop an I'm going to just go through some of these other ones real quick. Which is develop an exit plan. Which is have a backup plan. You don't just have to quit a job, but you can slowly start working your way out of there. Seek professional development, seek professional help and always, as Lindsay said, when you have, when you're kind, when you're kind, you stay professional. And the last thing is to detach yourself emotionally from the toxicity. Lindsay, talk a little bit about that piece. What does that look like? To detach yourself?
Lindsay Oakes:from the situation. That's what I said earlier. Actually, I had expanded on it earlier when we talked about you know the kind of negative work environment and you know taking on from other people. We just have to practice your own self care so that you can detach yourself for that and realize that your emotions and feelings are your own and that the way other people you know behave and interact with you is really more about what you know where they're lacking self worth.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, so, as we approach the end, we're just going to just jump to our last topic, which is leaving a toxic workplace.
Cleveland Oakes:When you decide to leave, when you decide to leave a toxic workplace, or even if you decide ultimately to leave a family in the case of a divorce, it should be with a plan right. This American, not this American life. I was listening to a stuff you should know episode from 2019 about breaking up, the science of breaking up, and one of the things that they said scientists have seen in a break up is one person has already gone through that grieving process and has already made that plan to detach and made that plan to leave, and the other person is usually totally blindsided that oh wow, this was not working right. So if you are in a toxic workplace, you need to go through that grieving process. As Trump, deciding to leave a toxic workplace is a significant step and it takes planning. Lindsay, what are some of the things that you would suggest people do if they're planning on on leaving their job, or what are some steps that you would take?
Lindsay Oakes:Um well, I'm never leaving my job because I haven't actually worked for anybody in so many years that I can't even remember what that would have been like for me. I think just having a financial kind of cushion to fall back on, trying to have another job lined up right or something else to do and sometimes before you even do leave right part of the exit plan should be building things up so that when you do leave right you're really ready to dive into the next thing.
Cleveland Oakes:And let me go back and ask you instead is when should someone consider leaving? Like what emotional state? Like what would? What would be some emotional cues that you would read in yourself, or a client to tell them? Hey, I think it's time for you to get out of here.
Lindsay Oakes:When you're not being able to be authentically who you are right, when you're not content and when you're not happy and there's so much criticism all around you and people are just coming in and being so negative all the time. That to me would be enough. I can't be around like complainers and people who have the victim mentality and stuff like that. I'm never for working in that kind of environment, so I'm always about telling people to just get out.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, when a job no longer aligns with your happiness, with your career goals, with your values, I stayed. There was one place that I worked many years ago that I should have long exited. I think I did that twice in my career where I should have long exited, where the corporate values didn't match with mine and I'm. Both times I paid for it. I paid a high price for it when I did not exit a culture that did not match my own.
Lindsay Oakes:But it kind of begs the question for me. I don't really know that many people who love going to their corporate America jobs. So how many people are really happy in that grind, right? So then it's like if you're not happy, right? How many people are just living so inauthentically every day and just going through the motions and this is their status quo? Yeah, how miserable does that sound?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah it is, it is hard, it is hard, but I do think it's possible really that you could find a balance right. And if it means, like I said, like a lot of young people I work with, they'd be like nah, this ain't for me, deuces, look at how many times the young lady over in Queens, our daughter in Queens, has done it right. Look at how many times that she's been like yeah, yeah, I'm going to yep, not, not working for me, not, not for me, not for me, not for me, and a lot of. And I used to look at that like, like what. But then I started reading statistics with young people. Young people, they're not happy with the job, they're not like us Well, not like me because you weren't happy with a job and you were like screw it, I'm working for myself forever.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, oh, I'm never working for anybody else. I do contract, though in a lot of different capacities. So I technically do work for people, but it's typically on my terms and I get to say what I'm going to do. But they all know that going into it and it works. And if the contracting relationship doesn't work for me which it's very rare, but sometimes it does I just leave and I just tell them that I'm taking time off. But you have to be able to, you know, because you can't, and that's I admire. That about this generation is that they won't be mistreated.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, I do admire right, but then on the flip side of that, they also are like a lot less accountable.
Cleveland Oakes:That is true also. So it's a fine balance and, with that being said, this is just so. I'm going to stop here. I think this is a good stopping point here. Just want to just say one more thing, which is leaving a toxic workplace can be a daunting decision, but it's important to weigh both the pros and the cons and prepare adequately for a transition. Why be great to win that mega millions tomorrow and, as my boss likes to say, and have that F you money? You know we can't right, and until your Kanye or Donald Trump or any, or or.
Lindsay Oakes:I would love to be a housewife. Yeah, the real house, the real housewife, not a real housewife. I want to be Gleeves house. Oh, I just want to cook and clean and see my therapy clients and just be happy.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, maybe we might be balling like that one day. But yeah, you just really have to just make sure don't just run, don't get up and run, but you really just have to make sure that you have a transition in place, that you do the process in any situation, relationships work, wherever it may be.
Lindsay Oakes:Every time you run, you still take all of your problems and your baggage with you. So it's like a lot of people think that they're going to leave and then they're going to go somewhere else and start over. But yeah, you can sure, but all that other internal stuff is still coming along for the ride.
Cleveland Oakes:And I couldn't say it better than that. Lindsay, if you have anything, do you have anything else to add?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't have anything else to add. This is interesting because you know you sent me these notes for the toxic workplace and look at spilled over into family lives and included a lot of info, a lot of info, a lot of info.
Cleveland Oakes:What are you going to talk about next week?
Lindsay Oakes:I don't know, Maybe awareness? I'd really like to talk about trauma, but you know that would span several episodes. I think, yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:I think awareness, because I remember I think one of my somebody I know who's a big fan of yours, who listens to the show weekly, was like I want you to talk about awareness, so maybe it'll be a big topic for me because I think most I said earlier right, being awake in a world where people aren't awake is very lonely and it's very hard because when I go into that internal space for me it's hard to go to other people. I can talk to you about it because, you understand, I can talk to, like my spiritual yogi, sangha friends, but I can't really talk to regular people in my life like my kind of more, like my acquaintances or not my really close friends about it, because they don't get it Right. Right, they don't get it. And if you, you know, and I I said to somebody this week I said I know you think who was having a lot of problems at home, and I said I know you think I'm a weirdo, I know you do, and like it's okay Cause I'm totally fine because all, like a lot of the things that I do, you know they would look really weird from people who don't do them, but you know they're very impactful in my life, right, the breath work, the meditation, all the chanting, you know all that stuff.
Lindsay Oakes:It's very impactful for me and it looks weird on the outside. But I said to her you know you really do need to incorporate some kind of adaptive strategy in your life, because your nervous system is all the way up here all the time right. The battery is always fully charged. So you know self care is so, so important and you know going on an internal journey, so it sounds like we're wearing it with that many episodes right there.
Cleveland Oakes:It sounds like we're probably talking about awareness the next time you see it. Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:And I have so many exciting things coming up right Because I'm in this training. I just booked a silent retreat in August for six days and I am taking a class I'm starting April 1st called the power of awareness. So maybe then we'll do the awareness episode once I start that class, because that should be interesting and I should learn a lot from it, and then next year, actually as soon as this training ends. I was just accepted into a two year teacher certification training for meditation and mindfulness with Tara Brock and Jack Cornfield, which is so cool because I've been waiting on a wait list to take this training because it's so popular. So finally, in three years I'll be certified.
Cleveland Oakes:You told me already.
Lindsay Oakes:So, yeah, I'm really excited and I think it's going to really lend to a lot of great topics for us. So, yeah, those are all the exciting things that will be coming over on our show for the next three years.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, wow, good stuff, good stuff. So this has been another episode of the devil. You don't know, this has been Cleveland. I'm Lindsay and we'll see you next time.
Lindsay Oakes:And I do. I love you very much because you really do support me so well when I'm not feeling good. Thank, you.
Cleveland Oakes:Thank you on that note. Now, we'll see you next time.