If You Don't Believe It Why Are You Crying?

Ever brushed off a cutting remark with a quick smile, only to feel the sting hours later? This episode peels back the layers of that age-old saying about sticks, stones, and words to reveal the surprising heft words carry in our emotional lives. Cleveland and I dissect why many, especially men, don the armor of indifference against verbal barbs, exploring the societal pressures that coax us into silence and the toll it takes on our health and relationships. We delve into the often invisible battle lines drawn between emotional resilience and vulnerability, sharing stories and expert insights on how recognizing and processing our feelings can lead to more authentic and fulfilling connections.

Resources

Books
Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ by Daniel Goleman
This seminal book introduces the concept of emotional intelligence and its importance in personal success and relationships.

Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life by Marshall B. Rosenberg
Rosenberg presents a transformative framework for expressing ourselves in a way that inspires empathy and mutual respect.

The Language of Emotions: What Your Feelings Are Trying to Tell You by Karla McLaren
McLaren offers innovative practices for understanding and making the most of your emotions.

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead  by Brené Brown
Brown discusses the power of vulnerability in creating strong connections and living a full, courageous life.

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol S. Dweck
Dweck explores the impact of our mindset on our lives and guides adopting a growth mindset for personal development.

Articles
"The Five Components of Emotional Intelligence at Work" (Harvard Business Review)
This article breaks down the components of emotional intelligence and its relevance in the workplace.
"How to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence ― 6 Essentials" (Psychology Today)

Offers practical tips for enhancing emotional intelligence in everyday life.

"10 Communication Secrets of Great Leaders" (Forbes)
Useful insights into how effective communication can improve leadership and relationships.

PodcastsThe Science of Happiness by The Greater Good Science Center
Practical, research-backed tips on happiness practices that foster emotional well-being and stronger social connections.

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Offers a rare glimpse into the emotional and intricate world of relationships through real-life therapy sessions.

Unlocking Us by Brené Brown
Brené Brown discusses ideas, stories, and experiences that reflect the universal quest for connection.

Websites
Greater Good Magazine (Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley)
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/
Features articles, quizzes, and videos on psychological research, practices for happiness, and emotional well-being.

Mindful.org
https://www.mindful.org/
Offers resources on mindfulness, meditation, and how to live a mindful life, fostering emotional health and resilience.

Psychology Today: Emotional Intelligence
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/emotional-intelligence
A collection of articles exploring various aspects of emotional intelligence, its importance, and how to develop it.

TED Talks: A Collection of Talks on Emotional Intelligence
https://www.ted.com/topics/emotional+intelligence
Inspiring talks from experts on the importa

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

Cleveland Oakes: 0:01

This is Cleveland.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:02

This is Lindsay.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:03

And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?

Lindsay Oakes: 0:09

If you don't believe it, why are you?

Cleveland Oakes: 0:11

crying. Well, if you don't believe it, why are you crying? That is an interesting title. I'm not sure I know exactly what it means. I think I know, but for those of us in the audience, tell us a little bit about this episode and how you conceived it and what it's all about.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:26

So I was talking to somebody last week who told me that they had an argument with a parent and I think it was in particular with their mother and when they went to complain about it to the father, the father called them a name and criticized them. And so I asked that person well, do you believe that about yourself? And they said no. So I said well, if you don't believe it, then why are you crying? Because inevitably, when people talk about us or say something negative about us, if we really don't believe it, then we wouldn't be impacted emotionally by it.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:05

Yeah, that makes sense to me. It makes me think of the old saying sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. But then be honest with you. Sometimes words hurt really badly.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:17

Oh, words definitely hurt. I definitely agree with that. I think most people are not aware of how they interact with other people, but words are very powerful.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:28

I want to ask you a question why is it that people tend to pretend that negative words don't impact them, even when it comes from a stranger?

Lindsay Oakes: 1:39

Well, why do you pretend, things don't bother you?

Cleveland Oakes: 1:42

Well, I could go into a lot of reasons I would say for me myself I just want to look strong, Right?

Lindsay Oakes: 1:49

I think it's embarrassing. People want to avoid embarrassment, or maybe they really want to believe that they are not that way.

Cleveland Oakes: 2:02

Yeah, man, I think of a couple of factors that I know that I rely on why I don't get so stressed and sometimes I do. You've seen me repeat, You've seen me go get caught on repeat where I go over a scenario over and over again and I pretend I'm fine and I'm actually not fine. But I would say for me it's like social expectations. Right Is why I don't like to admit. Always one of my feelings are hurt. Growing up as a man, growing up as a black man, we're often told boys don't cry and boys don't get upset. But when we look at a lot of the crimes that take place in the world, especially road rage and crimes of passion, it is because someone was hurt by someone's words or actions or deeds.

Lindsay Oakes: 2:49

I agree with you. I run into this a lot with clients, men and women, who get the message from a very young age that they should have a thicker skin, don't cry, don't be so sensitive. And they grow up and, like you, unlike the examples you were just giving then anger becomes the replacement for that, because all of the other emotions are pushed down and suppressed, and then people don't really know how and if it's OK to let them out. And so what ends up happening is they often come out as anger.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:25

Yeah, and it's interesting that social norms and expectations do play a significant role in shaping how individuals express their emotions. As a black man, it's not just our culture, but it's a Latino culture, asian culture, arabic culture. Showing emotional vulnerability is seen often as a weakness, and it often prompts individuals to mask their true feelings in order to conform to the societal expectations of strength and composure. A lot of times when we sit down with couples, I'm amazed at how many men just don't really feel comfortable with communicating to their wife how they feel.

Lindsay Oakes: 4:02

Definitely, and usually it's because they fear what the reaction is going to be, and that's a lot of what I see. It's the same when you work with somebody individually. They often come and they often have difficulty communicating how they feel about something or if something happens in their life, they have a big overreaction to it when I think about this.

Cleveland Oakes: 4:26

it's often times the pressure is compounded, especially in a professional and corporate world and in social settings where you must maintain a certain image. I think it was back in the 70s 80s. I can't remember the deodorant commercial, but it was like never let them see you sweat.

Lindsay Oakes: 4:43

Oh, I don't remember that one, I'm old.

Cleveland Oakes: 4:47

So, because of that, people oftentimes and I don't want to generalize and just say it's folks of color, it's white people too, but people often downplay the emotional impact of a negative interaction so that they can perceive that, so that they can fall in line with what is perceived especially and it doesn't have to be men, but a lot of times it's men- Well, I think with men, it's this be strong, be tough mentality.

Lindsay Oakes: 5:17

And I think there was a generation where it was less OK to be emotional. Right, I have a great client that I work with and he came because of anger issues and he's one of my favorite clients because he does the work and he's like I don't get angry anymore, I just don't care anymore. But underneath it, right, we're still learning to access a lot of the other emotions. But you know, when people grow up in hard times and a lot of times with black and brown Latino people, right, you're growing up in a very different way than, like white, privileged folks and I think that's why, when you refer to those types of people that you are, you know they're probably more likely right, when you're growing up in hardship and you have to be tough, right, that's how you learn to be yeah, and so I think that's why you refer to that.

Cleveland Oakes: 6:10

Yeah, oftentimes when I work from folks in the inner city and my initial answer with you is as a desire to appear strong, when I work with folks in the inner city, both men and women and of all colors, when they talk to me about their relationship issues and their lack of being open like I've sat down with people that are, that are want to be in love but then are very scared to be emotional or open themselves up to that person because they do not want to appear weak.

Lindsay Oakes: 6:42

Right and vulnerability can make you appear weak to people.

Cleveland Oakes: 6:47

Yeah, A closely related to social expectations is the individuals that desire to appear strong both to themselves and others, and this desire often stems from personal values and past experiences or is influenced by role models that people look at that are stoic or resilient. And there's nothing wrong with being resilient and we'll talk about emotional resiliency in a time later in this episode but by downplaying the emotional impact of negative interactions, individuals may feel they upholding a standard of strength and independence, but I think and you can speak more to this that they're actually harming themselves.

Lindsay Oakes: 7:26

Definitely, and I did want to go back a moment because I did say vulnerable and use the word vulnerable a few moments ago, and I was listening to Gabor Maté last week say that the root of the word vulnerable, the Latin root is, I think it's volness and it actually means wound Right. So when we're vulnerable with someone, right, it's very difficult to be vulnerable, but it's almost that kind of gives us this opportunity maybe to open a wound right, to hear something that we don't want to hear, and so that's another reason why it's so hard for people to express their emotions or to be vulnerable with someone else.

Cleveland Oakes: 8:06

I want to ask you about emotional resilience. Right, and emotional resilience refers to the ability to adapt to a stressful situation or crisis. People with high emotional resilience, which I like to think of myself, but I've been told that I'm stoic and that I push my emotions down, which is, which is true. Someone in class asked me that the other day, like why do I feel the need to push my feelings down? And I said, at least for me, when I sit with a client or I sit with, and both as a therapist and both in my other, in my other job where I do client services, I often feel that if I become emotional, that I am taking away from my clients' experiences.

Lindsay Oakes: 8:45

So interesting that you say that, because I am the opposite of you and I will tell my clients if I'm triggered or can relate to something that they say, and I'm also very open with them that I'm not healed and then I'm still working on my own healing and that it's okay to experience emotions or to be upset by something that is said or done.

Cleveland Oakes: 9:09

So that's what I want to ask you uniquely is what is the difference between emotional resilience, which I think I have, or pushing emotions down and discarding them, which is definitely something that not only you have observed, but people that have only known me for a couple of weeks have observed also?

Lindsay Oakes: 9:27

Well, I think suppressing or repressing the emotions is more. It's almost like an avoidance and it's a denial, right, whereas emotional resilience is. You are in my this is my perception solely, but you're aware of it and you maybe learn to manage it right. It makes a change in you right, it helps you to become stronger. And when we are emotionally resilient, I think that we do see things from a different way and I think we begin to realize it's okay to feel this way. But now what do I do with the feelings?

Cleveland Oakes: 10:10

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because, even though I do push my emotions down a lot and I've come to acknowledge that I grew up watching Star Trek and I believe in the Mr Spock and Vulcans who are like you know, we're about logic and human emotion is dangerous, but at the same time it is a good thing. Right, without digressing too much on my love of Star Trek, we should have Laurie come back out and talk about Star Trek a little more. I want to talk about the role of processing emotions and communication. Right, this is something that we've had in our relationship and I've sat down with couples where, um, yeah, they, they try to build love, they're very tailored. They see, if you're attracted to the new culture, I may push my emotions down, but when I am hot in the moment, I really, really, really want to talk about it and address it in that moment, and sometimes you are like don't want to talk about that, pete, don't want to talk.

Lindsay Oakes: 11:02

One thing I always say about you and I think actually I've noticed a shift in you recently but one thing that I say about you is that you have two modes fine and angry because you do push it down, or wait until it's gone too long, and then it all comes out, and I think it's worth considering how downplaying negative emotion relates to an individual's style and communication, and what's important is if you have a partner that processes negative emotions or negative interactions differently than you.

Cleveland Oakes: 11:36

Like you said, and using our own examples, sometimes in the heat of the moment, I want to talk about it right then. I want to talk about the hurt right then, and you need time to fully acknowledge and process what you're feeling before we can come back and have a conversation.

Lindsay Oakes: 11:52

I don't like to speak impulsively, I do. I like to sit in it and I like to identify what the emotion is and then I like to look at what hole or wound it opened in me, so then I can communicate more effectively with you. Right, and it kind of goes back to that argument that we had it was a while ago now, I think last summer where where we had this shouting match about the painting in the living room and you said, oh, you're just going to run away again. And I said, and then I thought about it and I think a little later or the next day, I said you know, this is what triggers me and this is how I feel and I know it's mine to work on. But can you try to bring a different approach to the table so that I don't get so activated? Right, but I do, I need that processing time and I think that that's.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:49

You know, people don't express their emotions and they don't communicate. Oftentimes, most of my experience with couples is that they don't communicate. There were never expectations set before. They, you know, made the long term commitment and then they never set them after, because it feels like it's too late, and then what ends up happening is every little thing becomes a big argument. And I think I've said to you recently, when I see couples, I'm like my God. People fight over the stupidest things. And it's not even really about that. It's about years and years and years of not feeling heard or supported or loved or whatever. You know, whatever it may be, and so people just react from this place. I mean, you and I, I can't even tell you the last time we had an argument where we screamed at each other no Right, but do you agree that people don't know how to identify their emotions and acknowledge them and then communicate effectively?

Cleveland Oakes: 13:49

Yeah, In our experiences between ourselves and our colleagues, we've had people argue about Cheetos, dark meat on chicken dishwashing liquid, and it's never about any of those things.

Lindsay Oakes: 14:02

No, it really isn't. And I had a client recently who said I'm just so tired of feeling unheard and I was like, yes, yes, yes, right, but he didn't get here overnight, right, he got here with lots and lots of work. And then he said aren't we supposed to grow together? And I said yeah, and sometimes we outgrow our partner.

Cleveland Oakes: 14:24

Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit more on this topic because, like I said, the title of the topics, if it didn't hurt you, why are you crying? What if you don't?

Lindsay Oakes: 14:36

believe it. Why are you crying?

Cleveland Oakes: 14:37

If you don't believe it, why are you crying? So what is, what are the long term consequences of suppressing emotional hurt and let's I want you to tell me about? First, from a psychological aspect.

Lindsay Oakes: 14:50

Well, I mean, I think it's proven in research that the more that people tell you about yourself, the more that you believe it. So if you're only told wonderful things about yourself, right, you're going to have this really kind of inflated ego. But if you're only told negative or critical things about yourself, then that's what you're going to learn to believe over time. And when I meet with clients, I always tell them I said this a few weeks ago to look in the mirror and look at yourself. And what do you see? And often most of my clients actually all of them only see the negative, right, they don't ever see any of their positive qualities. And so over time right, this is a significant contributor to anxiety, depression, other mental health issues and feelings of embarrassment. Right, when people tell us so much negative about ourselves, who do we want to go and talk to about it? It's almost embarrassing to tell other people.

Cleveland Oakes: 15:48

Right. What are the physical health consequences of this?

Lindsay Oakes: 15:53

Well, I am actually a very big believer that all of this emotional suppression causes physical pain and this proof I think it's something like 90 or 95 percent of cases of pain that go to the hospital can't be identified with any actual reason. I just I just heard that a few weeks ago in something I was listening to. You know, I listened to podcasts and all kinds of psychological lectures when I'm driving and that was what they said, and it was in one of the trauma lectures that I was listening to. I might have been with Peter Levine, but he was saying that he that that it's like it's just unexplained, there's no reason that people experience this kind of pain. For myself I don't know if you remember this I used to have this chronic kind of like neck pain.

Lindsay Oakes: 16:42

I used to always go to the acupuncturist so he can, you know, twist and contort my neck and back and crack things and put needles in. And then a few years ago, when I went on retreat, I did this huge trauma release breath work session. We did this energy healing and all of this meditation and we disconnected, you know, from the technology because there was no access there and at the end of four days I could turn my head for the first time in years, wow. And since then I've never had that problem again. Whatever I was holding on to, I released and that pain is completely gone. And it's been two years and it has never come back. And I really, really believe that when we hold on to all of that emotional stuff, it really creates physical pain within us.

Cleveland Oakes: 17:31

Yeah, science has proven that chronic suppression of emotions is linked to a range of physical health issues. I always quote this book. The body keeps the score and you always correct me and it's like ah, it does, I'm referring to it, right, and sometimes I'm not, but this is includes. This suppression includes a range of physical health issues, which include cardiovascular health problems, a weakened immune system response, a higher susceptibility to chronic conditions like hypertension and diabetes. The stress associated with unemotion, with unaddressed emotional pain, will manifest itself in the body, leading to some somatic symptoms without a clear medical cause, which is what you just said.

Lindsay Oakes: 18:12

Right, absolutely. That's very true, and that's exactly what that book I mean listen to the title of that book. The body keeps the score, but not the mind, right? That's not the emotional or psychological piece. This stuff manifests in physical pain and illnesses in the body.

Cleveland Oakes: 18:28

What's funny is I've sat down with both friends and clients and I've talked to them about things that make them unhappy and things that you know. And what's funny is they'll be talking about something that makes them unhappy and they won't realize that it makes them unhappy until I say well, how did you feel, how did your body feel, when you were talking about that?

Lindsay Oakes: 18:46

Well, there's a big disconnection between the mind and the body, right Gabor would say, between the mind, the heart and the gut. And so a lot of times there's that disconnect. You don't realize how, what you feel, because the thoughts start going and most most mental, you know, illness conditions kind of live in the head. So it's this kind of cyclical thinking or this negative thinking, and so you know we don't, we don't have a connection to our actual physical body until you learn to have that connection. And the way to do that is really through having some practices of kind of sitting with your emotions and really feeling them. That's why I like somatic work so much.

Cleveland Oakes: 19:28

One of one of my mentors often brought out the point that if you hang out with somebody and after you hang out with that person, if you feel physically depleted or ill, then that means that your body is trying to tell you, no matter what your emotional attachment you think you may have to that person, that you may love them, that you may like them, but if you feel physically ill and drained after you associate with somebody your mom, your dad, a lover, a co-worker that is your body literally telling you that this person is no good for you.

Lindsay Oakes: 19:59

Well, sometimes it's not for me. Sometimes I just need to. If I'm going to hang out with people like that because I don't say eliminate everyone from your lives, right, Because I have some good friends that can just be a lot, so I can be a lot. No, that's not true. I could hang out with you all the time, but I have some people that I'll always say to you. If we're going to go out with somebody specific on a Friday or Saturday night, I need to spend like a few hours in the afternoon just laying down to preserve my energy so that I can go out and handle that. Otherwise I'm like I'm done, I'm done?

Cleveland Oakes: 20:37

How does the suppression of emotion negatively impact relationships?

Lindsay Oakes: 20:42

Well, because eventually, over time, you develop resentment for people, right, if you and I were together and you and we learned this very early on, because I remember when we started dating you were very much used to be a people pleaser I call you a recovering people pleaser and I remember once, early on, maybe in the first year of dating, you dumped a bucket on me of things that I had done over a six month period that you didn't like, but I had no idea because you didn't communicate them to me. And you know your partner is not a mind reader, and so you have to communicate how you feel with someone, and when you don't, it comes out in a host of other ways, especially with, like, all of the arguing right. It comes out about the dishes or the Cheetos or whatever it was that the person did, but that's really not what it's about at all. So when we suppress our emotions, right, we're just completely closing off our relationship from the other person.

Cleveland Oakes: 21:42

And it's something that men are frequently guilty of.

Cleveland Oakes: 21:45

I am not. I don't want to generalize and say only men do it, but whenever I sit down with couples, that is usually the communication pattern, and I've been guilty of it myself where I you know, as Lindsey said, that I will hold on to something that pissed me off and instead of you know saying it on Monday at 9 55, as soon as it happened, I hold it for two weeks and then on Tuesday, seven days later, it's like, ah, I hit you with all this stuff and it's. And I've had couples sit down with me and that happens. Gottman even talks about it in his book, the Seven Principles of Making your Marriage Work, that men often hold on to resentment. They've been taught to put their emotions down, but because those negative emotions that they, they, they hold and they don't share, it either comes out and it's an explosion, or he which he calls flooding and or call, or ends with that man running away from the relationship because he does not know how to positively share his, his, his emotional distress.

Lindsay Oakes: 22:49

Right, and I always tell people too if you don't work it out here, you're just bringing it with you to the next relationship.

Cleveland Oakes: 22:58

Yeah, 100, 100, 100 percent. I want to talk about moving on from there. I want to talk about emotional numbing, and what does the long term suppression of emotions lead to? Well, the long term suppression of emotions do lead to emotional numbing, where individuals find it difficult to experience any emotion. Talk to us about that a little bit.

Lindsay Oakes: 23:21

Right. Well, it's that whole thing that I was saying about everything kind of living in your head, right? You become so inundated with the thoughts that you can't really enjoy life, right that's? I mean. Think about people with depression. They don't want to get out of bed, right, it's hard to get out of bed, it's hard to find any motivation to do anything, right, and you're pretty much dissatisfied with almost everything in life.

Cleveland Oakes: 23:46

I want to talk about the difference between being unaffected or appearing unaffected in actual resilience, and then I'll just give the definition of what that is. So appearing unaffected is a short term strategy which is designed to protect oneself from immediate, from the immediate emotional pain or in order to conform with a social standard. Say, hey, you go to to Thanksgiving dinner and you know the family says something crazy to you. I can't remember where it was from, I think it was a podcast I listened to as a gentleman who loved his grandmother and him. His grandma had a good relationship and he gained some weight and he walks into that. He's like, normally, acted like you know, what his family said didn't bother him. But he walked into Thanksgiving dinner one night and his grandmother, just out of, just very cruelly, was like George, what happened to you? You got so fat and he was like like he just shut down in that moment and he pretended like he was all right.

Lindsay Oakes: 24:50

Right, people laugh at all for make a joke about it. There's the age old thing right about having to be the funniest person in the room because it, you know, gives people something to look at. Besides, you know all of the insecurities that you're feeling.

Cleveland Oakes: 25:04

And that's avoidance right. So how is avoidance different? So you know, you said something that hurt my feelings and he said later on he went back to his grandmother and was like yo, that really hurt my feelings.

Lindsay Oakes: 25:15

Right, I touched on this a little bit earlier when I actually mentioned the word avoidance, right? So when you act like you're unaffected by it, you're just it's pretending, right, you're just pretending that you're okay. You're avoiding the actual sitting with the feeling or with the emotion. So what is actual?

Cleveland Oakes: 25:32

resilience.

Lindsay Oakes: 25:33

Well, that's when you, you know, when you hear something and you come to accept it and then you work on it. Right, these are my emotions, this is my responsibility, or my, you know, my involvement in the situations, so to speak, my role, and okay, so, like now, how do I rectify that within myself?

Cleveland Oakes: 25:54

Yeah, a genuine resilience, unlike the Vulcans of Star Trek, involves acknowledging and processing your emotions and not avoiding them. We're going to use a Star Trek reference. I would say that Cleans, who are very emotional, and humans also, who are very emotional, are probably more in touch with their emotions and Vulcans, who just shut them down, because resilient individuals allow themselves to experience and express a range of emotions and understand that part of a healthy that that that experiencing emotions is part of a healthy emotional life. What do you think about that, lynx?

Lindsay Oakes: 26:29

Oh, I, actually, I absolutely agree with that. You know people need to. You know we need to make it the norm, right to be able to feel and identify emotions and to be able to express them. And that's why people get so offended by other people or don't say anything at all because they're afraid of what the reaction might be. Right, if I tell this and this is a big thing in relationships right? Well, if I tell the person I feel this way, then maybe they won't like me anymore, right? So it's like there's almost like a fear to authentically be who you are because you won't be well liked.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:03

And I actually had a client and I this is funny because she was said to me in a session. She was like starting to date and she said I was almost like sitting on the date and saying, well, should I tell him this? Because if I tell him this, then, like, he might not like me. And I said, well, no, then you should certainly tell him because you may as well weed him out right now. Right. And then when they went on a date, the guy started telling her a bunch of stuff and said, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And she was like, oh, I was so relieved that he told me all this stuff about himself and was like okay to do it. And then she said it made her more comfortable. But you know it's. You can't fear the response, because if you're going to be in a relationship with anybody a friend, a romantic partner or anybody you have to be able to be who you are, because if you are not, then why do you want that person and to part of your life anyway?

Cleveland Oakes: 27:51

I want to talk to you about growth and recovery. We were in the car the other day driving up to a wine country and you started listening.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:57

Oh, that was very fun, wasn't it? We went to the boozy Easter egg hunt.

Cleveland Oakes: 28:00

Oh, that was great Talk about growth and recovery. I'm growing and recovering today from all the wine, yeah yeah, and I have been.

Lindsay Oakes: 28:08

you know that's been a big devil for me, as I really stopped drinking, so but what a fun day nonetheless.

Cleveland Oakes: 28:15

But on the way up you started listening to Gabor Mate. It was for the week four for module four, and they started it off with here's going to be another one that digs up that inner child and you were like, ah, another one. So I want to talk about growth and recovery and why acknowledging your emotions is an important piece of growth and recovery.

Lindsay Oakes: 28:38

Well, why wouldn't it be Right? I mean, do you want to stay stuck? Do you want to just stay in the status quo in this life that you're just not so happy in and you're just kind of moving, going through the motions? Or do you want to do you want to like, grow and evolve and live a more fulfilled and authentic life? I mean, that's really all there is to say about that, yeah, yeah, they're facing and working through emotional pain.

Cleveland Oakes: 29:05

Resilient individuals develop co-thing strategies and learn from their experiences. They don't they don't get stuck in the past, but they use the past as a springboard. And also too and this is important for me to remember, and more than one friend has told me this resilience does not mean that you are not pissed, it does not mean that you are not sad, it does not mean that you are not angry and it does not mean that you are unaffected by the challenges, but it means that you experience emotion in such a way that you are not overwhelmed by them in the long term.

Lindsay Oakes: 29:38

Well, and you also then learn how to sit with them and what it's uncovering in you. And that's really where the work is right. If you identify oh, cleve says this to me and it's bothering me so much If I identify where the root of that comes from, especially because most of our stuff comes from infancy but sometime in childhood that's where it comes from. And so if you open that wound, that's not your fault, right? That is my stuff to look at and figure out how I can heal from it. And that's why we have to be willing to, you know, accept feedback and criticism from people, right? And that is how we kind of develop our own emotional resilience by identifying. Right, this is mine, I know it's mine, this is what I have to work on, and you know, and so you know it could help me out if you communicate with me a little bit differently, so I don't go into that tailspin. But you know it's it's.

Lindsay Oakes: 30:36

It goes back to what Trish says, my breathwork teacher, right. The big, the big healing comes when you let your effus become your thank yous, right? So it used to be that you would be so triggered by someone and you'd be mad at them, but later you have to learn to thank that person because they've given you a level of awareness about your own wounds and all your own healing that needs to be done, and so then you can say, oh, you know what, thank you, because now I'm a better person for recognizing that within myself.

Cleveland Oakes: 31:05

So it sounds like you're saying that true resilience differs from merely appearing unaffected, but that it involves a process of confronting, processing and growing from one's experiences.

Lindsay Oakes: 31:15

Yeah, but it's also just the really, the real confrontation is confronting yourself. Yeah, right, because we are our own worst enemy.

Cleveland Oakes: 31:23

I want to go as we move on to our next segment words that wound. I want you to explain why people choose not to be confront confrontational with a member or a friend that wounds them with a careless word.

Lindsay Oakes: 31:36

Oh, I always say this, right, for some reason, that we feel that we have to keep family in our lives because they're family and so we allow a lot more from a family member than we do, really, from anybody else. Do you agree with that? I mean, I know you right Like you don't like to step on your mom's toes at all, so you're always just like all right, mom. Sure, okay, even for the sake of not being completely honest, you're like I just not worth an argument. Yeah, right.

Cleveland Oakes: 32:02

I've gotten a lot more comfortable in that Say. For instance, today is a big celebration in the religion that I used to be associated with and you know, I know my sister sent me an invitation the other day. A coworker who is in that religion sent me an invitation today, and back when I threw it in the garbage, back when, when we first met, I would I would just go and like really fabricate a story and be like, oh yeah, I went and it was great, and now I just I know I didn't go.

Lindsay Oakes: 32:31

Oh, it's not for me, yeah, it's not for me Not saying like, oh, it's stupid, I don't believe in it, it's just not for me. Right, everybody is entitled to their own belief, right, and they can participate in what they want to, but when it comes to family, it's much harder. It's much harder to walk away from family, and so what I say in those situations especially with clients that struggle with, like these familial relationships is if you decide that you want to have that person in your life, then you also need to decide what the boundaries are going to be.

Cleveland Oakes: 33:01

Yeah, so that's the Holy and fear and rejection and abandonment. And also it ties a bit to valuing the relationship. Also right that you might you know you might value the relationship more than you value your self worth. I want to talk to me a little bit. What were you going to use to look like you're going to say something about that? Talk to me a little bit about that, in the fear of escalating.

Lindsay Oakes: 33:24

Well, because what happens when you escalate, right? When people aren't in touch with their emotions and they can't identify their emotions or their role in something and something escalates? It's never good, right? I mean, think of people who fight. What happens when people fight? They sling a whole lot of insults and they do the shame and blame game and then nobody can take back what came out of their mouth, right? Once it comes out, it can't go back in, and so, in a way, sometimes we avoid that confrontation because you know it's it's easier to avoid it than to kind of have it head on. But what I always say, right, is that, like a drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts. So if somebody tells you something in the heat of the moment, they probably meant it, but when they're not so hot, they probably had a better filter.

Cleveland Oakes: 34:13

Right, Right. Tell me how this contributes. This holding of emotions contributes to low self-esteem and low self-worth.

Lindsay Oakes: 34:21

Well, because, like I said you, you know you believe what people tell you Right. And you know what's interesting is, people don't believe the good things people tell them. They always believe the negative Right. So you can have somebody who's like right. I have a client whose husband always says oh, I wish you could see yourself the way that I see you Right. But she doesn't see herself that way because she spent so many years of her life, you know, being mistreated by family.

Cleveland Oakes: 34:46

Yeah, what's crazy about that? And I want to. I do want to jump in there on that and I want to say that I've sat down with clients who have achieved incredible things, incredible things and they feel very much stuck in their pasts. And, to your point, these people have accomplished really good things and I've had and I'm not I don't want to say anything that identifies anyone but I've got people that I see that are, that are run the gamut of success and these people are still hurt by things that they didn't tell their family or friend or past lover hurt, let them know it hurt them and it is really still negatively impacting them to this day. Can you talk to that a little bit?

Lindsay Oakes: 35:34

Right, because they're suppressing the emotion. I mean, there's nothing really more. That needs to be said about that is if you don't, if you don't identify what it is and talk to somebody, right, then that's kind of your own fault.

Cleveland Oakes: 35:46

We did an episode a couple of weeks ago called no More Mr Nice Guy, and it talked a little bit about this lack of expressing yourself. Sometimes folks don't speak up because they hope that you're a mind reader right, there's a hope for an implicit resolution. Some individuals prefer not a non-confrontational approach, hoping that the problem resolves itself. But, lindsay, what is wrong with that?

Lindsay Oakes: 36:08

The problem doesn't resolve itself. It becomes a whole new problem, which is what I always say when you do not communicate about something that is bothering you now, it becomes about 10 other things by the time. The next time something comes around that bothers you because you're still holding on to that, and then something else, and something else, and it kind of presents itself in so many ways. So it's, I always say then it's more than just the initial problem, because now a whole new problem was created.

Cleveland Oakes: 36:36

As we move on, let's talk about navigating social landscapes. How do you think social media has impacted how, the way that people feel about themselves?

Lindsay Oakes: 36:46

Negatively. I think that people you know people want to live these ideal lives and that's all what social media is about. I mean, you said something to me the other day I don't have TikTok but you said something to me about how people said well, tiktok is the truth, that's what people are fighting for. They want TikTok because it tells the truth, and it's like there is absolutely no social media network or any news outlet that tells the truth. The truth is in each one of us and you know only you know who you are authentically and nobody else can tell you who you are.

Cleveland Oakes: 37:19

Yeah, and it's crazy, right, because so many people go on social media for the likes of the addict.

Lindsay Oakes: 37:26

Well, because then it's like oh look, everyone thinks I'm so wonderful. But you know what? Inside is still all the pain.

Cleveland Oakes: 37:33

Yeah, inside is definitely all the pain, definitely all the pain, and social media oftentimes has led to the lack or the loss of communication skills, right, the informal nature of social media how easy it is for someone to insult you. I saw just, for instance, I saw pictures of Selena Gomez who's suffering from lupus and she's 31 years old and she's recently gained a little bit of weight, right, and this is a famous person and I thought the pictures that she put of herself were beautiful. But there were people on social media who are like, ah, she's a cow, she's disgusting, she's ugly. You know, how is does that really? Why is that dangerous to put yourself out there on social media and why should you definitely ignore those comments?

Lindsay Oakes: 38:23

Well, for starters, who are they coming from? Right, I mean, when anyone talks negatively about someone else, it's probably because they don't feel good about themselves, so they want to, you know, project that onto someone else. I mean, we talked about that yesterday as well with the princess. I don't watch the news, so I often have no idea what's going on, but you had told me that the princess had made a statement and and then we looked it up online and it's like how terrible, right, that you cannot just live your life and have privacy when you're in the public eye. Right, there's nothing is just yours, nothing. Right, there's no privacy, nothing is off limits. And that's really, really terrible, because people should be able to, right, I mean I, I mean I didn't know this about Selena Gomez because I haven't watched it, but, like you know, I mean I'm a little chubby, so if I walk down the street like people wouldn't be like oh look, there's like Lindsay hoax. You know she gained some weight.

Cleveland Oakes: 39:16

Depends on the race.

Lindsay Oakes: 39:18

But you know people will look at her, because when you're in the public eye you can't really do anything Right. I would never, ever want to be in the public eye ever. But I mean, I really don't like.

Cleveland Oakes: 39:30

I'm very introverted too, so what's funny and I made a joke there depends on the race, but remember when we went to, where were we at? We were in the Virgin Gorda and as soon as we got off the well, his name was Leslie. When we got to the beach, leslie was like everybody's seeing you with that beautiful woman. Who is that woman? But then some some like like I said in my and I actually went back and commented on the Selena Gomez thread where I and I'm going to say something that's going to alienate some folks I was like yo, white dudes are sick because you know why are you going to negatively talk about someone who is, who is, objectively beautiful? Because they don't fit your idea of beauty.

Lindsay Oakes: 40:17

But not only that. Right? We've talked about this before too is that when you can meet someone who is just stunningly beautiful on the outside, but then they can open their mouth and, depending on what they say, they can, you know, diminish their attractiveness so quickly, right?

Cleveland Oakes: 40:33

Right, I think social media is dangerous also in this, when we think about this topic, because it causes increased sensitivity. Right, you are being inundated with and it's unfortunate for famous people. Right, I don't feel a need to post a picture and validate myself, Neither do you. I don't have to call a press conference to be like I have cancer.

Lindsay Oakes: 40:53

I mean I got. I hope I never have it, but you know. But it's just like if you don't see someone in the public eye who cares. I mean, why are you looking for these people? Do you have nothing better to do with your life that you have to sit there and look and wonder why you haven't seen the princess in a picture lately? I mean, my God.

Cleveland Oakes: 41:12

Yeah, that's crazy, right? I wouldn't even know.

Lindsay Oakes: 41:14

I mean, but I also don't know who half the celebrities are, because you'll say, oh, do you know? So-and-so I'm like nope, never heard of them.

Cleveland Oakes: 41:19

Yeah but one of the amazing reasons why the oldest boy got off of social media, because he said I am not a celebrity who needs to curate my public image and he realized that all these negative comments that he were getting about his life and his thoughts on social media were not good. And the constant exposure. And I want to ask you about this what do you feel about? The constant exposure to a wide range of opinions and topics and all these? You know? A colleague of mine once said that you know, opinions are like assholes, right?

Lindsay Oakes: 41:49

everyone has one.

Cleveland Oakes: 41:51

Everyone has one, but it doesn't need to be seen or heard.

Lindsay Oakes: 41:54

Yeah, absolutely no, I mean, I agree with you. I think that the constant exposure to all of this is really is very negative, right, and I think it's a contributor to mental health issues. Right, because you're constantly comparing yourself to other people, and yeah, it's really, it's really, you know, and the thing is, it goes on both sides of it, right, because people are also, you know, using it to promote their agenda as well. But you know, it's not, it's not healthy, right? We don't need to put ourselves out there in the world and by telling people everything about you. It is a really poor boundary.

Cleveland Oakes: 42:28

Extremely poor. Social media and public forums have complicated interactions with negative opinions and have amplified the reach and impact of folks that can just hurl an anonymous burb at you. And they have leveraged the human, a human's natural desire desires to be connected, which means that you have people who are hooked on the TikTok which tells the truth it absolutely does not, are seeking like validation right, and they're burning themselves out by seeking validation.

Lindsay Oakes: 42:58

Right, you know what I was reading this week and then I saw a statement about it is, you know, our favorite show there, 90 Day Fiancé. What's her name? Is it Emily? Is it Emily and Kobe?

Lindsay Oakes: 43:10

Yes, right, and they had their third baby and they posted pictures on Instagram and people were just going crazy oh well, why don't you get out of the basement of your mother's house and you know, oh, you're a stay at home mom and your mom is always watching your kids and it's like shit. I wish my mom helped me with my kids when I was they were little. But also, who cares where they live? Who cares? And he actually came and fought back and he said, you know he's from Africa. And he said, you know, this is family, you live with family, right, and that's what his cultural experience is. So he thinks that there's nothing unusual, right, about what they're doing. But I thought, like, who cares where they live and what they do? Like people are so wrapped up in what other people are doing, right, and in reality, what they probably want is probably the amount of money that these people are getting from doing this show every week, right, because I'd be like, listen, I don't care where I live if you're going to write me a big old paycheck.

Cleveland Oakes: 44:09

Listen 90 day if you need Lindsay and Cleveland to come on your show. We're not crazy, but we will do an episode of pillow talk and talk about all the crazy that we see.

Lindsay Oakes: 44:19

But like who cares right? It's like why do you care so much about what other people are doing and where they live and how much money they have? That's not my business.

Cleveland Oakes: 44:29

Yeah, 100%. I want to move on to our final segment, which is breaking the cycle, and I want you to offer folks some strategies. Healing from emotional wounds caused by words, especially those from friends and family, often involves a multifaceted approach of center and self-awareness, communication and vulnerability. I have a young man in my life that I appreciate sitting down and talking with him very much, and he calls it giving himself grace. How can you have listeners give themselves grace when it comes to negative interactions that they're trying to push down?

Lindsay Oakes: 45:06

Well, being kind and compassionate with yourself is always number one, right? It's just looking at it and saying, you know, yeah, like maybe I am that way, right, but why is that a negative thing? People take feedback like that and they perceive it in such a negative way and criticism. But the way that I look at it is that if I didn't have my own emotions and I listened to what everyone said about me, I would not be living authentically, but I also wouldn't be where I was in life today, right? So you have to be able to look at those things and, you know, say, uh-uh, that's not me, right, and you need to be able to kind of rise above.

Cleveland Oakes: 45:50

Yeah, well, listen, I know you touched on it a little bit early, but as we wrap up, I want to go back and touch on some of these points. Tell me about how vulnerability can play a piece in the healing.

Lindsay Oakes: 46:01

Well, vulnerability is that actual expressing of the emotions, being able to be who you are right, without reserving any parts of yourself, to be able to say like, hey, this is who I am, this is the kind of stuff I say and do and this is how I feel Right. And it's like take it or leave it Because, honestly, you weed a lot of people out of your life by seeing how they you know, how they you know perceive the boundaries or the communication that you provide.

Cleveland Oakes: 46:28

Yeah, because I put it like this, and I've sat down with folks who are scared to express themselves or are scared to express to a family member or a lover how something has hurt their feelings or if something is you know is not working for them. And that's a good way, as you said, to see if a person needs to still be in your life right, by being vulnerable with those that hurt you. If someone loves you and if someone, if you tell someone who loves you that what you said and not and we have to be careful because you can't really use, and this goes to effective communications do not say you hurt me. You can say I felt hurt when that was said to me, and when someone who loves you hears that, if they love you and they really want to continue the relationship, what will that person do? Lindsey?

Lindsay Oakes: 47:16

They'll learn to interact with you in a different way and let you express yourself. And it goes back to what I was saying before of being able to look at it and say you know, this hurts me and I know that that's mine, right, it opened up a wound within me, but, ok, so I have some healing to do. But, like, let me tell you that that hurts me and so it sends me to that place of pain or hurt. When you do that, so can you bring something else to the table, right, so that I don't react that way?

Cleveland Oakes: 47:43

Being vulnerable with someone, lets them know that they, that that they hurt you right and it's and this doesn't mean you have to share your feelings with everyone what we know that what was it? Who got kicked off? A survivor, who he came to win a million hearts and won a million nothing. That poor guy from India? Yeah, bono right.

Lindsay Oakes: 47:59

Well, he was just.

Cleveland Oakes: 48:00

but he was just blabbing, I wasn't even about him, he was just gossiping.

Cleveland Oakes: 48:04

Yeah, but you really need to share your feelings with the people in your life who you trust and are most important to you. I've sat down with couples who who between and it bugs me out Like why are you waiting to talk between sessions? Who have been arguing all week and they've been talking at each other, not with each other, all week. And it is not until they sit down with me and they talk about what hurt their feelings and the other person is like you never told me that.

Lindsay Oakes: 48:32

Well, the real work happens between sessions, right, you come here for some guidance, some feedback, right, to learn something a little bit more about yourself. But the real work happens in between the appointments. So if you're not going to practice the skills, then you are not going to get better.

Cleveland Oakes: 48:51

And you don't wait down until you sit with your couples counselor or whoever your mentor is in your life and tell your partner that they hurt you. Tell them right then. Don't wait till Tuesday, seven days later or five months later. Tell them in that moment. This is how I felt when that was said. Right, yep, here's as we wrap up. This is your favorite. I was going to say something Go ahead, Go ahead.

Lindsay Oakes: 49:13

Say it. Every time I say to you oh, I want to talk to you about something, you immediately go into this state of panic. Every man does Every.

Cleveland Oakes: 49:21

I tell all my female clients because I had one. I have a young lady that I see and she's like why. Every time I have a boyfriend and I tell him I want to talk to them about something they get, so they get so pensive.

Lindsay Oakes: 49:32

You get so scared You're like, oh my God, did I do something? What did I do? Oh my God, what did I do? That's what you do. I'm like, oh my God, it was nothing. But I like to talk face to face with you and not, you know, not, not in about. I mean I could get mad at you about the. I mean the tissue situation is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Let's just talk about that before you go into probably talking about boundaries. Because you said my favorite thing Um, last week I showed you a pile of Kleenex and paper towel and like long strands of toilet tissue that had like pulled out from under your side of the bed and in the sheets and where you sit in the sofa and it was like the most massive mound of paper ever. Right, I mean, will you acknowledge that? I will.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:08

I said it's whoever did this is crazy.

Lindsay Oakes: 50:10

Right, I know you tried to blame me, um, but anyway, proceed with your boundaries. No, no, no, but I just like people to know that we have a little conflict over here. Yeah, yeah.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:19

And listen everybody we're, I might, and I've said this a million times my coworker, you know, who retired and I love her to death. You would say that she knew when I was in the office, because there would be a trail of tissue down the hallway and you'd be like breadcrumbs, like Jack and Jill.

Lindsay Oakes: 50:36

I don't even understand what I comes from. It's just, I mean, even today, today, and you're sitting on the sofa and it was like in your lap.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:44

And I have not blown my nose once because I don't suffer from allergies anymore.

Lindsay Oakes: 50:47

No, you never blow your nose Never. But, yeah, it's just the weirdest thing. Sometimes I have to say to you, like, don't put that in your pocket, go straight to the garbage. Straight to the garbage, like you're a kid.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:57

You have to be more conscious of it. But let's talk about setting boundaries and communication. Yeah, um, what, and I want this is. This is something I wrote down when I was doing research Boundaries are not about controlling others, but respecting your emotional space. What would you tell someone who is scared to set a boundary?

Lindsay Oakes: 51:13

Yeah, so interesting. I had a client say this to me actually in the last session that I had, um, where he said well, if I, if I tell my partner what I need and they say OK and don't give it to me, and then I leave, aren't I giving them an ultimatum? No, no, and that's what I said. Right, there's a difference between an ultimatum. Right, An ultimatum is if you don't do this, then I am, or if you do this, then I am doing this, and you know, boundaries are a way of telling people how to love you and how to interact with you, and this is what I need in the relationship and when you. You know, like I said to you earlier today too, you learn a lot about people from how they take your boundaries right and when they. When we know how they perceive your boundaries, you really do learn a lot about people. If I tell you something that's really important to me and you continue to behave in the same way, then whose fault is that? That's your own.

Cleveland Oakes: 52:12

Exactly One of the things that I learned from you. Your boundaries are the way, or an instruction manual to tell people how to interact with you. Yeah, they're not an ultimatum right.

Lindsay Oakes: 52:22

No they are. This is what I need. This is important to me because, again, why would you compromise who you are to be accepted by someone else? I do not compromise who. I am for acceptance.

Cleveland Oakes: 52:32

My automobile takes a certain octane of gas. It takes regular and leaded. I cannot put Ethan Hall in there. I can't put water in there. If I put anything other than what is the manufacturer says goes into my car, what will happen to my car? It won't work. It won't work right. That is not an ultimatum. If you have something that will fundamentally not work for you in a relationship, that is your job to tell your partner that.

Lindsay Oakes: 53:00

But you need to tell them in the beginning. Yes not 10 years in.

Cleveland Oakes: 53:04

Yeah, I want to talk about reflection and forgiveness. How is that helpful in a relationship?

Lindsay Oakes: 53:10

But when someone's wronged you, Well, I mean, reflection is really a process within yourself, which I had said earlier, is sitting and processing your emotions, how you feel. You know what's going on within you when you're activated and forgiveness is. It's really a process of forgiveness. Is forgiving yourself first Right and recognizing I say to clients too right. You have to forgive yourself first for these feelings before you can, you know, move forward in a relationship. Because if this is something that's really impacting your relationship because often it's our own stuff that impacts the relationship, not what the other person is doing Right Unless the other person is outright like you know cheating or you know doing something abusive to us, then you know that's, that's their own stuff. But you know, forgiveness comes when you have to be able to like let go and move on. And if you're not going to let go and you're going to keep revisiting it, then you're really not forgiving yourself or the other person for something.

Cleveland Oakes: 54:11

Yeah, I believe it was Maya Angel who said that when you're holding resentment in your heart is like letting someone live their rent free. So forgiveness does not mean that you are forgetting or excusing the behavior, but you are, and I want you guys to listen to this. Forgiveness means that you are letting go over the emotional hold that that situation has on you.

Lindsay Oakes: 54:33

Absolutely Right. That's the hardest thing when couples, especially with something like cheating, right, if you want to work it out, you have to leave that in the past. That means that you are saying I forgive you, I'm giving you another chance.

Cleveland Oakes: 54:47

And the last thing, as we, as we begin to wrap this, as we wrap this up how can personal growth and resilience building help with someone who is suffering from from this?

Lindsay Oakes: 54:58

Well, everybody should always be working on themselves, right. That's. Our only job in this lifetime is to continue to make ourselves a better version of us. Yeah, we don't. We don't have. We don't have to worry about what other people are doing, right, we have to learn more about ourselves, how things impact us and how we can move forward, and then that builds the resilience, right? When you have better self-esteem and self-worth and you have a deeper understanding of yourself and why you are the way that you are, then things do begin to bother you less and I always say I don't care. Like you could say whatever you want about me, I really don't care. You know, there's really nothing that you can say that's going to damage my character.

Cleveland Oakes: 55:39

Yeah, what I really want to add to this here is I think you guys know how much I hate social media, how much I hate 24 seven news, and I think part of what's happened with our culture that's gone completely off the rails is people do not reflect inward, they don't know the damn selves and they're so busy on tiktok, which tells the truth, or X, which is, you know, has some interesting tidbits and you know on there, but they don't know their damn selves. And one of the things that you should do, instead of reflecting outward and seeking validation outward, 200 years ago I think you guys know what I mean. You know what you had to do when the lights went down. You probably went to bed, or you read a book by candlelight, or you went out and you observed the stars. You need to engage in activities that strengthen your sense of self.

Lindsay Oakes: 56:32

But that's also just doing what is right for you, authentically knowing who you are. Right, how many people don't want to do something because I mean, we see this right with the youngest it's? I don't want to. You know she's got interests and things but she won't go and do them at school because she might be perceived as uncool, right. But the thing is is just be who you are like, be who you are, and I think that's why she likes her sleep away camp so much. Right, because all of those kids are a little quirky and they're you know. They come together in the summers and they get to really be who they are. Because there is no technology, right, they're living out in the woods and they have to be silly and sing songs and be childlike, right, even as teenagers, and so they get to really be who they are. But you know you have to when you are authentically who you are like, that's when you're living your best life.

Cleveland Oakes: 57:22

Yeah you and I have had the privilege to not only raise seven interesting people, but we, yes, very interesting people, but we've also had the privilege to sit across the table and from and on screens of very interesting people. And the amazing thing that I've seen about all these amazing people in my life and some of them are different levels of their development is a lot of them don't realize they're disconnected from themselves and they believe the narratives that other people have put in their heads, or believe the narrative of social media, and they do not know their self and their personal growth and resilience is suffering because of that.

Lindsay Oakes: 58:00

Right and I was actually just talking about this with someone today while you were gaming this morning is that you know it is essential to find your sangha right, your group of like-minded people, and so when you are not being who you are, you are not going to find those people, and that's why it's so difficult to connect with others. And so, you know, I'm really very excited to really kind of find those people, and that's what I was talking about today is just starting, especially, just like only for women. Of course this, this one, is, but you know, like a women's kind of healing circle, you know, locally, you know in the coming months, because it's so important for women to have other women to sit with right and to provide support and guidance and to meditate with and heal with, because it is so hard to just be able to be you in this world, because we really are forced to do a lot of things that we don't want to do, because that's what it takes to pay the bills and to get by.

Cleveland Oakes: 59:00

Yeah, I want to, as in and for our last piece here, I want to offer listeners advice on how to constructively express themselves when a word from a friend or family member, or maybe even a stranger you know, has hurt right. Number one reflect and understand why this is bothering you. Two, as Lindsay and I discussed earlier choose the right time and place.

Lindsay Oakes: 59:23

And it's never in front of other people in public.

Cleveland Oakes: 59:26

Never, never. Oh my God, I hate that. I had a couple I talked to once that like to argue in front of their kids and I asked them if you got on a plane and the pilot and copilot and you were over the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and all of a sudden you heard the pilot and copilot fighting vigorously, how would you feel? Terrified, terrified. So you have to choose the right time and place when you have these conversations, right yeah?

Lindsay Oakes: 59:55

be mindful of your surroundings.

Cleveland Oakes: 59:58

Use I statements. Be specific. Bought the incident, lindsay can tell you that Don't wait until two weeks later or six months later, and then dump a bucket of complaints on someone.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:00:08

Nope, nope.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:00:09

Express your needs. Yep, make sure that you listen to the other person's perspective.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:00:14

Yeah, and really hear them. Don't just listen. Hear what they have to say. I think nobody wants to feel unheard.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:00:22

I think one of the things that you said and I often bring this out when I talk to couples is I did this because I hate that. Well, what happened? Well, what happened is and it's not listening from the person's perspective, right, it's?

Lindsay Oakes: 1:00:35

okay, you know what? Yes, I did that because. But you know what? Okay, I understand that that's hurtful to you and it triggered this and me and that's why I did that right, because it's not I did this because it's like I did this, because I was triggered and it opened a wound in me, so I needed to react.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:00:50

Practice self care essential and always seek a resolution. Don't let, as the Bible says, do not let the sunset with you in a provoked state, but go seek the resolution.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:01:04

Absolutely. I'm sorry. I'm getting ready for my perimenopause now. Well, that's okay.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:01:08

We'll do a whole episode of perimenopause While they won't even think about it. The last thing I want to say on this and, lindsay, I'll give you a final word if you want one after this. I think it's important to understand that, while sticks and stones may break your bones, words do actually hurt, and it's important.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:01:26

Well, they hurt you. Yeah, Only if you don't have good sense of self-worth.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:01:32

Yes, and it's important. That's what I was going to say. It's important to understand that your worth is not defined by the words of others, it is not defined by social media, it is not defined by your family or friends.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:01:45

It is defined by your accomplishments and your satisfaction in life, and that not even your accomplishments, right, because sometimes we don't accomplish what we set out to accomplish. Right, it's, it is really, it is. It is basically, it is defined by you, by you and what it means for you.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:02:03

Yes, and that you have the strength to overcome the hurt that others may have caused. And, lindsay, do you have anything else to add?

Lindsay Oakes: 1:02:10

No, I was as I always. Just say be kind to yourself and be compassionate with yourself and, you know, learn to accept yourself right, Despite your flaws.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:02:22

Some books that you can read on this topic are Emotional and Intelligence why it Can Matter More Than IQ by Daniel Goldman. Nonviolent Communication A Language of Life by Marshall B Rosenberg. Daring Greatly how the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way we Live, love, parent and Lead, by Brené Brown. And Mindset the New Psychology of Success by Carol S Dweck.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:02:48

Yes, absolutely.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:02:51

And, with that being said, lindsay.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:02:54

This has been another episode of the Devil you Don't Know, and I love you very much.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:02:59

I love you too. I can't wait for Barbados. Oh my gosh, me too. And while we're all the sleeping and while we're at the seashed, I'm going to trauma dump all over you.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:03:09

I'm just kidding, I'll probably be, have headphones on and be reading a book, so I won't even be listening.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:03:16

That's great, but this has been another episode of the Devil you Don't Know. Remember to rate and review us on iTunes or whatever platform you listen to us on. If you like what you've, if you what you've heard today, please subscribe and tell your friends.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:03:31

Yep, tell your friends.