As the delicate strains of Cat's in the Cradle echo in our minds, we're reminded of the fleeting nature of time and its impact on our roles as parents. Our latest episode peels back the layers of approachability, unearthing the barriers that often keep us at arm's length from our children. We share heartfelt stories, from my father's emotional awakening to a neighbor's cautionary tale of choice imposition, illustrating the pivotal moments that shape our relationships with our kids. It's a candid look at the necessity of being emotionally available and present, ensuring our children feel valued and heard.
Venturing further into parenting, we examine the intricate balance between granting independence and providing empathetic guidance. Through personal anecdotes and real-life examples, we confront the consequences that overprotective and micromanaging tendencies can harbor. The theme of reciprocity in relationships emerges as we juxtapose tales from family dynamics to everyday customer service interactions. We underscore the profound lessons that blossom from autonomy, respecting our children's decision-making ability, and learning from the outcomes.
Our conversation culminates with a treasure trove of effective parenting strategies, focusing on the transformative potential of open, supportive communication. We draw upon the insights of experts like Dr. Laura Markman, Dr. John Gottman, and Dr. Dan Siegel to emphasize the critical role of empathy in fostering emotional well-being. And for those grappling with the intricacies of technology, we navigate the waters of establishing boundaries while embracing the digital age's benefits. Join us as we weave through these nuanced discussions, offering a guiding hand to parents striving for a connection that stands the test of time, empowering you to build stronger relationships with your children.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
As the delicate strains of Cat's in the Cradle echo in our minds, we're reminded of the fleeting nature of time and its impact on our roles as parents. Our latest episode peels back the layers of approachability, unearthing the barriers that often keep us at arm's length from our children. We share heartfelt stories, from my father's emotional awakening to a neighbor's cautionary tale of choice imposition, illustrating the pivotal moments that shape our relationships with our kids. It's a candid look at the necessity of being emotionally available and present, ensuring our children feel valued and heard.
Venturing further into parenting, we examine the intricate balance between granting independence and providing empathetic guidance. Through personal anecdotes and real-life examples, we confront the consequences that overprotective and micromanaging tendencies can harbor. The theme of reciprocity in relationships emerges as we juxtapose tales from family dynamics to everyday customer service interactions. We underscore the profound lessons that blossom from autonomy, respecting our children's decision-making ability, and learning from the outcomes.
Our conversation culminates with a treasure trove of effective parenting strategies, focusing on the transformative potential of open, supportive communication. We draw upon the insights of experts like Dr. Laura Markman, Dr. John Gottman, and Dr. Dan Siegel to emphasize the critical role of empathy in fostering emotional well-being. And for those grappling with the intricacies of technology, we navigate the waters of establishing boundaries while embracing the digital age's benefits. Join us as we weave through these nuanced discussions, offering a guiding hand to parents striving for a connection that stands the test of time, empowering you to build stronger relationships with your children.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
So for those of you that tuned in last week, this is going to be the second part of an episode of Lindsay what's the name of the episode? Who did you talk to? How to be an approachable parent, and where we left off last were barriers to approachability. We had started off talking about strict discipline and we had moved on to high expectations. Another barrier to approachability that I can think of is, for me as a busy parent, is lack of time. Let's talk about that and how lack of time can can impact a kid.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, your focus is often elsewhere or the time that you're around your children is less. I know for myself. I'm pretty fortunate because I work for myself, so I have a lot of time, like I always make sure to do the school pickup and to be here in the afternoons after school. But for parents that are working or working two jobs, yeah for sure, it's really difficult to have that connection and to have that open dialogue and that time together.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it makes me think of the song cat in the cradle and the silver moon. Silver spoon, silver spoon, you, you, I always put your lyrics and in that song the gentleman talked about how he didn't have time for his son. And then, when he grew up and got old and wanted to spend time with his son, what happened in the song?
Lindsay Oakes:His son was too busy for him, and he learned from his father that that was how you lived life, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And one of the ways that you can overcome that is. Parents need to make intentional time for their kids, Even if it's a couple of minutes during the day. You need to engage in conversations and activities.
Lindsay Oakes:And also as a side note, is to just listen, even when you don't want to listen, right? That's what I do, and there's a lot of times that I don't want to listen and I have no idea what's going on in the story, and I just listen anyway because I want her to feel heard, right.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and that's very important. You know you meet folks and we've met them in the workplace and, once again, these things are important because you take these things with you into work. Right, I work with folks, that I look at them and I know, oh, obviously do you ever. Obviously, this person is like this because they never felt heard, and so now, they need everybody to hear them, yeah, as somebody I work with.
Cleveland Oakes:Uh, they like that when they see somebody, they say like who's got the power now? And it's really important, if you want a well, uh, rounded adult, to make them feel heard, because who even wants?
Lindsay Oakes:the power, though, right, I just want to be. I just want to be content.
Cleveland Oakes:Talk to me about emotional unavailability.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's kind of your own inability to express your emotions or to really be present in a life and feel the feelings surrounding a situation.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, some, some parents struggle to express emotions or share personal experiences, uh, which create a disconnect between themselves and their children. Um, I, I can think of my own dad, who was, uh, who, as he got older, got softer, um, but my dad grew up in the streets of Harlem, new York. He used to be in the strength gang back in the 1940s I think they were called the distinguished gentlemen, um, and so he's from those, you know, like those tough and rough and tumble days, and my dad was a quiet man. And when he's, as he got older, he became more expressive. But I remember being a little kid telling my dad I loved him and he would be, like you know, get all tongue tied. And so I think that emotional piece is really important, right, because there's a lot of men out there that be like, well, I don't have to show, I don't need to show you that I love you, you just know it by my actions. But, linz, why is that wrong?
Lindsay Oakes:Because that's just making an assumption that somebody knows what you feel and what you think.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the importance in overcoming it is parents can work at becoming more emotionally available by sharing their own experiences and being transparent about their feelings. I love my mom, but one of the things that used to drive me crazy as a kid was my mom. And still to this day, at 80 something years old, my mom likes to act like she never made a mistake, like she never did anything wrong and like, well, I didn't do that, I didn't do that, and I think it's really important. You know, that makes a person emotionally so it's like you're sitting here and I'm talking to you and you don't understand me. Then why am I talking to you, right?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. I agree, yeah, and it's also. It also, then, is another way of like what we were talking about before is that it just kind of shuts things down because you have to be accountable for your own participation in your life's events.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, 100%. You need to be accountable. How about overly controlling parents?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that just doesn't really do anything, except for, you know, kind of produce resentment, I think in relationships, and I could think about people I know and what they've pushed their kids to do and the kinds of interactions that they have with their kids, and it's, you know, it's it's like you can't make your. You you can, but here's the thing when you make someone do something because it's what you think is best for them and not have anything, it doesn't have anything to do with their own autonomy or their own authenticity. All you are doing is driving a wedge in the relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Right If we told this kid no, you can't major in this and you have to do this, don't you think he'd be much like less content with us?
Cleveland Oakes:A hundred percent. When I lived in the projects in Sumner houses one of my neighbors a good guy you know, unfortunately, the choices that his mom made for him. He ended up being incarcerated and was very resentful of her later on in life. But he was, he was a nerd, he was what we call in the black community a blurt Right, where he just liked to read his books and he would just, you know, read his books and, you know, like to go to go to school and come home and his mom, like literally, was like oh he's, he's soft, he's weak, was like oh, he's, he's soft, he's weak, and literally forced him to go out in the streets when he didn't want to and associate with the, with the guys in the street, because her idea of what a black man was is that they didn't read books and they weren't into these comic books and the fantasy books that he was into.
Lindsay Oakes:And he didn't really have any identity.
Cleveland Oakes:No, no, and in fact he fell in with the wrong crowd and you know one of the last conversations that he had his mom, okay With that.
Lindsay Oakes:No, and then she was judgmental and then she was judgmental.
Cleveland Oakes:But one of the last conversations that he had, because of the level of control that she exerted over him when she was dying, he was like literally told her I hate you and I'm glad that you're. You know, I'm glad that you're dying and you know this is something that she confided in my mom that she felt miserable because she was like, damn, I took him off the course that he wanted and he didn't even, and now he hates me and you know, and maybe you know, if I could talk to him today, maybe he might regret that conversation that he had with his mom, but probably not because, as you said, lens, I think being overly controlled leads to resentment.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, it definitely does lead to resentment. Yeah, that's really sad and I think it's really hard for parents to just let kids be who they want to be. And I just don't understand that, because I think it's important. I know, and, for example, like the queen mom wants to go into, you know, pastry arts or cooking, and that's another one. My mom is like, oh, she'll have to work on all the holidays and it's just like, but you know what? She's got to figure that out for herself. Right, everybody has to do what they feel is right for them, and if it doesn't work, they can make another choice, right? And that's exactly what the devil, you don't know, is. It's making that other choice. It's, you know, conquering all the obstacles that you need to conquer to get to that next place. And you know she's young, so at 16, she may know, she may not know what she wants to do, and she might go into culinary arts and she may, in five or six years, hate it, but you know what? Then she'll figure it out.
Lindsay Oakes:And the problem is is that when we teach our kids right, we control them and we make decisions for them and we tell them what they need to do, they go on and they live unhappy lives, right? I got a lot of messages about the kind of person that I needed to marry and what I needed to do, and then I did those things and none of them worked for me None of them. And I don't have any resentment because I'm on a path and I've been able to work on myself quite a bit. But I could see where the resentment comes into play, because it's you told me to do this and you said this was the best thing to do. And now I'm here and I'm not happy, and that's the problem, right? We often live the life that other people want us to live or that we think we should live.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, one of the amazing things about becoming a counselor is one of the first things they teach us, as counseling is like do not control your clients, do not give them advice, do not tell them what to do, because why Linz?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, but because they also they need a set of tools and they need to figure it out on their own. And clients don't come to counseling so that you can tell them what to do. I mean, a lot of them want you to. They do, but you know you have to help them to learn who they are, to find themselves Right, and that, I think, is the biggest issue, is there's a fear in that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, like when we think about being an ethical counselor. What are the principles that we talk about in the ACA code of ethics is non-malfeasance, is autonomy and, as the you know, and beneficence is the right to do things yourself right as a parent. When you are overly controlling, you are not. You are doing what's best for you and not what's best for your child.
Lindsay Oakes:Right and most people are not happy in this world. So that style is not working.
Cleveland Oakes:Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. I mean, how many people do you know that are truly content and satisfied with the life that they're living? Most of my clients are not. Yeah Right, I had a client last week oh, I don't really like this guy, but if I stop dating him I have to start over. I was like, yeah, so you know what? Definitely stay with him, even though you don't like him. Stay with him. You're young. Stay with him because of all the things that you should do in life, like get married and have a kid and buy a house. And then you know what, in a few years down the line, like realize how miserable you are. Right, like, if you want to have a baby in a house, you don't need a band to do that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, and that's probably because that's what she feels that she must do for other people Right, and not necessarily to make herself happy.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely Well. She feels unlovable, right, because that's the message she got from her parents growing up was that nobody would love her.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, when I even even when advice at times and I and I realized in the past that I was a little dogmatic. I know you think I'm super permissive now, but that's because I just got older and I just got tired of the fighting. I don't.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't, I shouldn't say you're permissive, right? Let's go back on that a little bit, because you're, you are really a tough one when you want to be and when you need to be. I think the kids know who they can manipulate more.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah that's true, because Tom Huckleberry, when he wants something and I've gotten tough on him. I remember a couple of weeks ago, I remember, yeah, when he needed the Xbox password and he asked you for it and you didn't.
Lindsay Oakes:No, he didn't ask you for it.
Cleveland Oakes:it and you didn't he asked me straight for it and I was like ask your mom. He was like I was like, bro, you didn't even ask her. Okay, I'm going to ask her. Um, but I think what happens with me sometimes while the kids don't listen to me and it is true and I've, and it happened in the bar the other day, I experienced it firsthand is is is I gave them my solution right? It's like they came to me for help and I, or they came to me for an opinion and I was very dogmatic and strong about it in my solution. And I got to experience that firsthand at the bar, where I asked my bartender twice for a gin and cranberry strawberry flavored gin with cranberry that I thought would have tasted amazing and the bartender, yeah, I was like, yeah, I think that will taste amazing and then gave me a gin and tonic twice.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah Right, she just did what she wanted to do. And how did that work out for you? You said to me I went to the bar and I had two drinks, and neither of them were what I wanted or ordered.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and because she thought she knew best Right. So it's really important to to be to let folks have what they ask for, Right as long as they listen to people, listen to what people want and listen to what they say.
Lindsay Oakes:Say and don't just do what you want to do.
Cleveland Oakes:Don't make the assumption that just because a person is a child or is a minor, that they do not know what they want or do not know what's best for them in certain moments. Right, and I think parents need to, and once again, it's not being permissive. And it's knowing when to to offer autonomy Right. It's. A kid needs to learn to fly, and parents can offer more autonomy and choice and allowing kids to make mistakes. And I think part of what's gone wrong in this generation of folks and I'm going to say and I was talking to a colleague at work about it is that they've been so sheltered that many of them not all of them, but many of them have been so sheltered and not allowed to make mistakes that when they're 21 or 22 or even in their 30s and life doesn't work out the way that they expected it to be, is because they lived in a controlled environment and they didn't realize that the real world is not a controlled environment. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, yeah, for sure I had a point and I lost my train of thought, but I wanted to talk. Oh yeah, I wanted to say there's also that reciprocity piece was something else that I wanted to bring up. That's not that you and I didn't talk about when we discussed the show. Right, is that? Like there has to be a give and take. They end up being unhappy because there was so much control and so much of people telling them what they should do and then there was no autonomy at all, and I think that that just makes people not even know who they are. Right, and that's something that you probably see with clients. I see it with almost every single one of my clients. It's like I don't know who I am and who what, like you know what feeds my soul and what drives me, and, and that's like a you know that feeds my soul and what drives me and and that's like a.
Lindsay Oakes:You know that's a hard place to be in and it's hard for me because I am the kind of person where if I want something, you know me, I go for it and I will go back and I will go to school and I will do a training and I will do this and I will do that just to do the things that I want to do and you know I I know what my interests are and you know that I am not flexible on the things that I want to, and I can think of our great friends who were not going to name um but they recently had a son that moved out to El Paso and they were totally against it.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, they were like dead ass against it, but they rocked it, they let him rock out. Things didn't work out for him, um, and he's. He's on his way back home, but hopefully it seems like you know that there was a lesson learned in that.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you know what I want to say. I actually thought about them earlier in the show when we were talking, and also my other friend, right, because I have these two ride or die friends and I think that one of the things that I like so much about them both is that they parent very similarly to the way that we do. They allow their children to make choices and to do things. They're not always the right choices and they do have to, sometimes kind of you know, intervene and have conversations that are difficult, but we're all, we all operate from a point of letting our kids live their own lives and and that's a perfect example of that they didn't think he was going to like it, but now that he's coming home they're like, you know, we'll just talk to you when you get here.
Cleveland Oakes:And I think the importance of letting him make that decision and then make the decision to come on a home on his own is at least he got to see that it did not work out Right, and I think of decisions that my parents made for me growing up.
Lindsay Oakes:I ended up doing them anyway. Well, that's what I was saying earlier, because when you have your mind set on anything, right, your parent is the expert, except in your own home. Right, I am not the expert here, even though I know what's right and what's wrong, and you know what's right and what's wrong, and I tell my friends all the time, like you could see the train wreck that lies ahead, but it doesn't matter, because your child doesn't want to see that, and you have to let them do things and make mistakes and get on their own path. Right, and part of that path is making mistakes, because a lot of us Right, I don't know anybody, but maybe you do who have made all, who have been like, had this autonomy and this authenticity from birth until now in their life.
Lindsay Oakes:Do you know anybody none who made every single decision based on what they wanted for themselves and what they thought would feed their soul and make them happy and like live a content life? I know nobody. Yeah, right, but all of the adversities that we experienced led us to where we are right. And so if I didn't go on the path that I went on, would I have been like? Would I have met you, would we be sitting here right now? Probably not.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah. And so, once again, where this is different than permissiveness, this is giving kids a guideline. It's giving them a controlled environment, without being overly controlling.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, it's also saying I'm going to let you make these decisions and I'm here for you, right, and I love you and, no matter what happens, I still love you and I'm still going to be here for you and come to me and we can talk about it and we can communicate and we can work it out. And we've been very fortunate because all of our kids I mean we joke that they like us too much.
Cleveland Oakes:It's true, it's true. Let me this brings me to my next point, which is our next point, which is lack of empathy. And once again I want to go back to my mom and dad, and I love them very much, but there were times, especially, my dad actually was a little more empathetic than my mom, because he grew up in the streets. He, his father, passed away early. My dad, because he grew up in the streets, he, his father, passed away early. My dad, you know, had to, from time to time, had to take care of himself, even though his mom was, you know, lived to the ripe old age of about 90, something. But because of that, my dad, you know, was a little more empathetic than than my mom. Because my dad made mistakes, you know. He, he, he lived a full life.
Cleveland Oakes:My mom, on the other hand, love her to death, you know, made a lot of mistakes too, but once she became, in her mind, a Christian, for some reason, she felt that being a Christian meant that she had to wipe away everything that she ever did. And so sometimes, when I would speak to my mom and I love the woman to death there was a lack of empathy there. Well, I didn't do that Well. I didn't do that Well. I don't know why you would do that, because the Lord said not to do that, and so so it would be like because I'm a dumb ass kid. That's why I did it Right.
Lindsay Oakes:And so when parents don't empathize with their children, it creates a sense of isolation and well, we could talk about religion too, right, and the thing is, is that when you're following the specific doctrine, right, that's all you believe, and then that's the case.
Lindsay Oakes:Right with your mom is that she's very devoutly into her religion, and so she sees things one way and she doesn't see it from another lens, whereas you go to more of a hippie church and you see things from a different lens.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, I am very much into spirituality and Buddhism and yoga and meditation, and I see things from a different lens, and so everybody looks at the world from a different lens, right, and, and I think with your mom, that's what right, because I don't know how long your mom's been in that religion, but I do know that she had some, you know, real hardships in her younger days and, um, so you know that has been her source, probably, of comfort, and so she.
Lindsay Oakes:Because, that's, you know, people go to religion, right, when, when I mean think about it when people have a really horrible or traumatic experience, what do they start doing? They start praying to God immediately, right, and these could be people that have never gone to church and never pray, but now, all of a sudden, they're, you know, oh my God, please save me, save this person, say whatever it has to be Right. And so your mom went to the church in a time of safety and so that's like her only lens and the difference between you and me and people that are in that religion, right, other family members of yours as well. We see the world of like, oh, come to find, and for me, what's helped me be successful in life.
Cleveland Oakes:Even though my parents weren't super empathetic to me at all the times because of the religion, because of what they felt was they had to be as a religion. I actually read the Bible and Jesus was empathetic. Right when Jesus talked to the Pharisees and the Sadducees and they came to him and they were like, well, why do you hang out with the gay people and why do you hang out with the prostitutes and the tax collectors and all these other people? Jesus was like, you know why? Because these are the people that need me. I'm not here to tell them that they're bad or that they're messed up. I'm here to just to talk to them and help them change, you know, their lives so that they can get closer to God.
Cleveland Oakes:And he was like if you guys are good over there, then stay there. If you good over there in the synagogue, stay in the synagogue. I'm not judging you. You're good, right, and so empathy is important. But it makes me think about something that's going on in the family now, where my mom has a little boyfriend, you know, and I'm empathetic to it because I realized that, you know, even though my mom and dad were married for 49 years, he passed away and she wants a companion, right, you know, and, and, and, regardless of what we may think about the companion, I am empathetic and it's like well, she deserves a companion in her old age, right? My brother, on the other hand, who is who learned from her about a lack of empathy as well?
Lindsay Oakes:if you, if it's not my way, I'm never talking to you and this guy again, because it's just wrong well, they're both in the same religion too, and they're both your mother's very set in her ways, right, I love your mom, but whoo, she is set in her ways and and when she wants something, she wants it bad. Yes, which is true, right, but she will make you feel bad if you don't give it to her.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, but but you know, and then what does that do? Well, that makes me sometimes stay away. Right, and I love my mom, but sometimes I stay away because, even as a grown adult, I don't need somebody else's. I don't need that barrier, right, I don't need somebody else to tell me what to do as a 50 year old man. Right, as a 50 year old man, I'm still being told, and I think they've let go of it and they respect and understand my lifestyle now, just like your folks respect and understand your lifestyle now. But it shouldn't come to when you're in your 40s and 50s to be like, ah, let me let this person just live how they want to live.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, absolutely. But at this point you're independent, so it's like, yeah, well, whatever they do, they do Right, and so that's the difference, it's the control that is when you're in your childhood.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think it's important. By addressing these common barriers, parents can create a more open, approachable environment, and this effort involves active listening, being flexible, being patient which is very we talked about this in class the other day with kids, where it's very hard to be patient with kids, but you really do have to be patient with kids and being committed to fostering a supportive environment where the child feels valued, respected and understood.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and I work with little kids right, birth to five, and so the thing I always say and I tell teachers and I tell parents kids are not acting this way because they want to piss you off. Right, this is their cry for help, or they're wanting to be heard or supported, or loved. That is why kids are doing the things that they do. Oh sorry, cat faux pas. Yeah, your favorite cat. She always wants to sit on you.
Cleveland Oakes:Just let her sit on your lap. Yeah, I'm going to be patient and approachable.
Lindsay Oakes:But you know, that's really what it is is that we have to give kids the opportunity to be heard and not punish them, because a lot of especially in the field that I work in we have to remember that these kids are not coming from the best and safest home environments, right, and so school might be a safer place for them. So, instead of control and judgment and criticism right, a child is never responsible for what kinds of patterns are being passed on to them, especially as infants and toddlers, right, they only know what they see at home and what they experience. So those are the kinds of kids where they need love. They don't need to be criticized if they can't write their name at four or if they can't recognize letters or numbers. They just need somewhere to be where they feel safe.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, in this next segment I want to talk about strategies for parents. Oh my God, I need a strategy for my cat. I'm a cat parent because this cat drives me crazy sometimes. But I want to provide and then, lindsay, you can jump in on this too I want to provide some practical tips. I think you should set aside time for regular conversations. I think you should engage in active listening without interrupting. I know I can remember I'm 50 years old but I remember being a teenager and trying to explain myself, even if it was some dumb stuff. Oh, the queen mom hates when we interrupt her.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, she hates it. We have to let the whole story come out. We could be sitting there. There's 500 parts. You and I are sitting here listening, twiddling our thumbs, looking at each other like we have no idea what's going on. Maybe we could piecemeal it together. And she gets so mad if we interrupt her doesn't she?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, and then my last thing I can think of is being nonjudgmental and supportive. Yes, I did that dumb thing and I remember being a grown man and I got into a little bit of trouble over some stupid stuff when I was in my um, early twenties, um, in my, in my late twenties, and the first thing you know that my mom and dad said to me you know, not even late twenties, this is like my mid thirties Um, well, why did anybody? Well, why were? Why was it only you guys that got in trouble? Why couldn't you be more like that person? Well, why? And that wasn't supportive.
Cleveland Oakes:Listen, I did the dumb shit. It was dumb. I didn't mean to curse. Maybe I'll cut that out, but I did it. I did some dumb stuff. I did something dumb and it's it's in the past. Don't beat me up on it now. I need your, I need your help and I need your support to get out of the situation. What do you think about that lens? And I know it's hard, because I've looked at my kids, and, and, and and my kids will tell you um, everybody, all seven of them, will tell you that, yeah, when Cleve gets annoyed, it's you know he, he's off to the races, but yes, and it is. I am off to the mother fudging races, but I've come to learn being like why did you do that Dumb stuff? It's, it's in the past that ship has sailed, and so it is very important, oh my God, to be nonjudgmental.
Lindsay Oakes:You go crazy.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I get crazy.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, he has this thing. I call it diarrhea of the text. If one text sets you off, you will text the other person incessantly and I'm like, oh my God, what is that triggering? And you just stop and sit with your own feelings. But you can't do it. No, sometimes I can't do it sometimes, but I know, but no, when you, oh yeah, when you are activated, whoo, everybody, myself included, and you really love me very much. So you've got to be really activated to take it out on me, cause I know once you were fighting with your daughter what do you call her?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, I called her princess peach.
Lindsay Oakes:And then you started taking it out over here. I heard you yelling at the queen mom and then you started to come at me and I looked right at you and I stopped you dead in your tracks and I said I see what you're doing here and you're like huh. I was like you're mad at Princess Peach, so now you want to take it out on all of us too.
Cleveland Oakes:I was like that I'm going to take my own lesson. It is important that, even when you're not feeling being non-judgmental or supportive, Listen, as as and I think you said it about the about Huckleberry, about about Tom Huckleberry that they already feel bad about themselves. The kid already feels bad about themselves. They already know what they've done is dumb and they don't need you to beat up on them anymore.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent and I think that what they really need is support and love and to say like, hey, there's other options, you can try other things, and that's what we don't do for kids. There's a um on Instagram. There's a you know, I only follow specific things nothing that's news related, of course but I only follow vegan people. And there's a you know, I only follow specific things, nothing that's news related, of course but I only follow vegan people and there's I don't even know how he came into my feed, probably because you know social media tracks every move you make but there's a guy I think it's the child care agency and he is.
Lindsay Oakes:I just love him because he's very much has the same kind of viewpoint on things that I have, which is, like you know, teaching kids to communicate with one another, teaching them that it's okay to not want another child to take something from them or do something, and it's like okay to cry and be upset about it, but then to also advocate for yourself, even at a young age, and that's something I've always taught kids to do. Um, because a big thing with kids is they lack those like kind of pragmatic social skills, and so it's teaching kids to say from a very young age, at two or three, like no, I don't like that, or it's my turn now. Please stop doing that. And we need to teach kids how to advocate for themselves, but also how to communicate with other people where it's OK to feel this way but like let's resolve it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. Moving on to our next topic, the role of technology, and you know I am very against technology, social media. I am, I am. I have an Xbox. Listen, in all seriousness. I have a PS5. I have an Xbox series.
Lindsay Oakes:X the cable company's outside.
Cleveland Oakes:The cable company's outside for real. No, no, that's an inside, that's an inside joke. Because the cable company came and disconnected, uh, our cable to put somebody else's on. And we, I was furious, I said I'm.
Lindsay Oakes:I actually been sitting by my porch all day so I could yell at this guy when the other people come to put their cable back on right, but what I wanted to bring up with the Xbox is that, like so on, we had no wifi and no access then to TV or phones or anything this week and we have a really poor cell signal in our house.
Lindsay Oakes:I think I have like an LTE with one bar, not even a 5g, and I I the other day it went out. So Friday I went to drop the queen mom at her 7am detention, which she was late for, and then I went to the grocery store and when I got back the wifi wasn't working and I was like, oh well, like what am I going to do? And I was like this is like the olden days where I like I was like I'm going to read a book. I was like this is actually quite nice, because the cell signal was so poor I couldn't access the zoom from my hotspot and my computer wouldn't even connect to it. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. Remember a time where we had no access to this and we actually had to find things to entertain us or do nothing, and I just sat on the sofa and I read a book. I mean, it was on my Kindle, so it was still technology, but I'm not allowed paper books, remember.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah Well, that's because they're too heavy.
Lindsay Oakes:When we're on vacation, books remember, yeah Well that's because they're too heavy when we're on vacation. Yeah, so, but I did. I sat and I read a book and it was so lovely, and I did laundry and I cleaned the kitchen and I thought, wow, this is so nice because if there's no wifi, I have no obligation to anyone else, but I should be able to just say, hey, I'm taking the day off today.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's true, that's true. And here's the thing is, and I'm going to talk about how technology can be beneficial, because technology can ease communication. You know, the kids are all over as the kids get grown or older, the only one that we have left here is the queen mom, but you know it's good. We use it to talk to the college drop in. We use technology to, to, to connect with Tom Huckleberry when he's around the other kids, with Tom Huckleberry when he's around the other kids. Princess Peach, you know Martin Luther X, I'll call him or aka the young Republican. You know Hunt Tyler. You know we use technology to talk to them, right? Also, technology allows us to share experiences with each other. It's also educational tools and, like when Princess Peach was in Puerto Rico, we used it, for she decided, and you do it with the other kids also, where we share location.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's a non-negotiable for me because of where we live, and I don't like the kids milling around in New York City and me not knowing where they are, especially with the crime levels where they are.
Cleveland Oakes:And so those are good ways that you can use technology to be an approachable parent. However, how technology can hinder families and hinder your approachability is excessive screen time, are the online distractions, are cyber risks and, in some cases, over monitoring what your kid is doing on social media. What do you think about that, lince?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, absolutely. I think you even said to me you didn't even want to see what Princess Peach was up to on vacation. No, absolutely not, absolutely not, no and I agree with that.
Lindsay Oakes:There's certain things you just don't want to know about your kids, and so it's. You know. Here's the thing, because when we did those things well, you never did because you were so well behaved, I was controlled. So, christian, anyway, there were things that I did that I never needed my parents to know about, but because we didn't have social media and iPhones and all that, I didn't. You know, you'd have to actually take a photo and develop film, and in those moments nobody was really available for that.
Cleveland Oakes:So, yeah, so, as we wrap up, I want to do this piece and then we're getting ready to wrap up the whole second part of this episode. Using technology is a good piece and it's it's got good things and it's got bad things. What you can do as a parent is and one of the things that we've tried to do here is establish a tech free zone. Right, and one of the which is lindsey will be like I'm changing the wi-fi password right now, or we'll do periods where we're okay, there's no wi-fi today, right? Um, parents can create a tech freefree zone or times.
Lindsay Oakes:We have yeah, we have times like dinner time where the phones, but I have to say that when we sit down to dinner together, they often don't even bring them.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, yes, and that's because we model the healthy use of it, we set clear boundaries, we encourage shared activities. Like you and the queen mom like to do puzzles together, even when we're on vacation. I get a little bit jealous, like when we were remember. It was like two years ago we were in Naples when we were in Florida. Yeah. And she was like oh, I need the puzzle, I need the puzzle, yeah, no, that was frustrating for me too. But I just did it because once again.
Lindsay Oakes:I want her to feel like, oh, my mom spent time with me, and she didn't only spend time with Cleve and with cleave and when I asked her to do things with me, she did them. And yeah, I mean, I know I totally selfishly wanted to be laying in the sun outside. I did, I'm not lying, I just I just did. You know what I thought I should do as a parent in that moment. So I think, and I think that's important too right, because then she got the message that like, oh, my mom will spend time with me even when we're somewhere else and it's important to be open about technology, be open about what is safe and not safe.
Cleveland Oakes:I think when you just damn it all to hell, like I would love to, kids are still going to do what they want to do anyway. They're going to get on the TikTok, they're going to get on the Facebook, they're going to get on the Instagram and they might make connections that aren't so safe, and so it's really important to open, have an open dialogue about the use of technology, and parents should maintain open communication to discuss both the benefits and the risk. On top of that, I think it's important to regularly review boundaries around using technology. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I think that. I think that that's healthy, right. It's just having the boundaries. I mean, you know how I feel about boundaries there's got to be boundaries and there's got to be set of clear rules, and that's it, and then everything else is negotiable, right, but there's certain things that are not negotiable.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I want to. We're about to wrap this up here and we're going to just end it off on some expert insights because we are close on time and the queen mom needs to get picked up in about 50 minutes from Grand Central Station and we can't be late, otherwise there will be hell to pay. But here are some really approachability. Here's some expert insights. Right Approachability in parent child relations is critical, is a critical factor in promoting healthy communication and parental bonding.
Cleveland Oakes:In promoting healthy communication and parental bonding, psychologists and family therapists frequently emphasize its insignificance for child development and family harmony. And here are a few interesting folks that I follow and I listen to and things they have to say like Dr Laura Markman talks about the importance of building trust. When parents are approachable, children are more likely to seek guidance and support. As we already covered, trust is the foundation of a strong parent-child bond. Dr John Gottman who I love Gottman, I think I talk about Gottman every week, even when it's not about marriage or family states that open communication allows children to express their feelings without fear of judgment, leading to a healthier emotional processing and reduced behavioral stress. Dr Dan Siegel co-signs on that when he says when children feel understood and valued, they're less likely to act out or gain attention or express dissatisfaction, and I think you as a counselor can see that in the behavior of adults that felt undervalued. Can you talk to that for a minute?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. Actually, when you brought up Dan Siegel, I think that he has a book that Gabor Mate was talking about the other day, which is now what I wanted to look up.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, so, while you look that up, I do think that's important because one of the when sometimes, when I sit down with clients and I ask them why they're acting out or why they're making poor decisions, it's because they never felt, heard or seen as children, and it's really important that you hear and see them now so that they understand the proper way to behave.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. And then when you criticize and judge them for doing something that they get in trouble for or something that can be perceived as negative, then a lot of times kids learn when they don't have healthy nurturing bonds with parents and there's not a lot of feeling heard and supported, then what do they do to feel heard? They act out right, because that's how they get the attention. So, but yeah, so this book is called Parenting from the Inside Out how a Deeper Self-Understanding Can Help you Raise Children who Thrive Right. So that's great. I have a list of books like a mile long that I would like to, you know, read in this lifetime and maybe when we move to Barbados and you let me be a housewife, I could read them finally, eventually eventually.
Lindsay Oakes:But you know, basically it's like we have to know ourselves and we have to be comfortable and content with ourselves. And then when we have that and I think that the part of me that feels I'm really satisfied with where I am in life right now, and so I think that that allows me to be a little bit more lenient and comfortable as a parent.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, dr Virginia Sater says, by creating an environment where children feel.
Lindsay Oakes:She's the family therapist lady. Oh yeah, yeah, encouraging independence by creating an environment where children feel safe.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, she's the family therapist lady. Oh, yeah, yeah, encouraging independence by creating an environment where children feel safe to make decisions and express opinions. Once again, we talked about it during the episode. In both episodes, parents foster autonomy and self-confidence, which contributes to well-adjusted adults. Here's another one that you're going to love. Dr Gabor Mate, who is a physician, who is a physician and addiction expert, points out that approachability helps children to build resilience. When parents are open and empathetic, children will discuss their struggles and seek support in a healthy way. Right, because if you don't talk to your kid and I stress this to parents all over they're going to talk to somebody. Right, and at least when they talk to you, you can direct the narrative. But when they talk to Tyrone and Samantha or LeBron or whoever down the street you don't know, you don't control any of that narrative.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and he actually has a pretty new. Well, he is, it's not new now, but he has a book called Hold On to your Kids why parents need to matter More Than Peers. Right, and that's a really interesting thing. I mean, we have so many books that we can read and talk about you and I and I love it because we have really kind of interesting conversations together, but it is it's like we have to nurture the relationships that we have with our kids. Yeah, right, and instead of pushing them away or making them do things because we believe that that's what's right for them and we have to let them figure out instinctually what's right for themselves respect and value their children's opinions.
Cleveland Oakes:Validation and empathy Dr Brene Brown says by acknowledging our children's feelings and showing empathy, parents will create a safe space for open communication. And, lastly, consistent and fair discipline. Dr Ross Green suggests that consistent and fair discipline promotes approachability right.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. I have a book by Brene Brown upstairs that you should read. It's about emotions. I've been looking at it, but it's like a comparison of different emotions. It's very, very interesting in what people think they are and what they actually are.
Cleveland Oakes:And when parents set clear expectations about discipline with empathy, right, that's disciplining your child to correct them, not because you're disciplining out of anger.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and the discipline. The problem with discipline right is that I feel like discipline is a strong word, right. There has to be a consequence and the consequence has to be I guess I kind of what's the word I'm looking for appropriate for what the offense was Right. Does that make sense?
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, that's what I always say. Like you can't go to jail. Listen, if I'm going to go to jail for chewing bubble gun, I'm going to jail for for robbing the bank. Then I might as well.
Lindsay Oakes:Rob the bank Right and and right, like here's a perfect example with the queen mom, right, if you get a detention for stupid nonsense, okay, not because I got you one, okay. But if you get a detention, then you need to pull out your MetroCard and get the bus, map out and figure out how to get home.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right.
Lindsay Oakes:If I got you a detention because I didn't read the handbook and then here I am breaking the rules again, then I will pick you up, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And I think when you have a parent that their go-to is name calling or physical violence or beating, it is far better for the consequence to come from the child right Than from you right, because when you like, you said, when the queen mom, if you Well, if the queen mom picked a consequence.
Lindsay Oakes:It would probably be like okay, I'll just come to Wegmans, but I won't get a coffee this week.
Cleveland Oakes:But when you force the kid to deal with the repercussion of their actions, which do you think works more, beating them or making them take the bus on their own?
Lindsay Oakes:Well them take the bus on their own. Well, I don't ever think that you should beat a kid, because the consequence has to equal what happened with the behavior, and so there's never an excuse to beat a kid. And now I actually want to look up this sociologist that I was talking about earlier in the episode. Um, but there's never an excuse to put your hands on a kid, because what would be the why? What would that be a consequence for? Yeah Right, and what is that teaching the kid except to be afraid of you and afraid to come to you in the future if they do something wrong. Ok, so like, oh well, my mom's going to beat me, all right, well, I'm not going to let her know, I'll just let her figure it out on her own and then I'll hide that day. Like that doesn't promote healthy communication.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, consequence is it should be, it should be that they should suffer the consequences of their actions. As the Bible says I give you the blessing and I give you the curse, I give you life, I give you death, and you choose Right, and that's God is. God is like hey, you know what? Yeah, you know what. This is what I want you to do, this is what the rules say. But if you want to go do something else, just deal with the consequences, right. And I do think that is more of an effective lesson as one of the. That is more of an effective lesson as one of the one of the sermons I had a long time ago is like kids can learn. Listen to a long time ago. Kids can learn one of two ways. You can learn from experience, or you can learn from talking to your parents or an adult. Oftentimes most folks, they're going to learn from experience. The problem with experiences experience doesn't necessarily care how it leaves you.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and I think it's also important to mention that. You learn from situations how you would do things, but you also learn how you wouldn't do things Right, right and so, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:So consistent and fair discipline means that you let the child deal with the consequences. You don't need to be, and you know, and this is how I'm going to leave it off you don't need to be the consequence for their failure or for their stupidity, but you need to let them deal with the consequence. And once again, I can think of some folks that we know that they have troublesome kids or kids that are a little bit problematic, and a lot of the problematic nature of what's been going on with these kids now that they moved into adults is because they were never forced to face the consequences of any of their actions in a healthy way.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, you can't save your kids now, right, and that's why I let the queen mom I didn't even go up against the detention thing, I just like let her have the detention. And I'm not even going to argue with them about the bathroom thing, because I really don't care if you're in the bathroom for five minutes or 10 minutes. I mean, what if a kid has to poop? Yeah, bathroom for five minutes or 10 minutes, I mean what if a kid has to poop, yeah, you're like limiting them to a time where they have to go to a different floor of the building and then you're putting all this pressure on them. And so when I actually had to get a note from her therapist to send to the principal to excuse her from detention and the therapist said this seems a bit excessive super and I was like it's so excessive.
Lindsay Oakes:Um, and I told her I joked with her that in the note she should put how you know, traumatizing this was for children right, because they can't use, they're like the minute. So on friday they had career day and she, you know, she had to use the bathroom. And it's the time of the month, so she told the teacher and the and it's the time of the month, so she told the teacher and the teacher immediately pressed the button on the timer as soon as she said she had to go to the bathroom. And then she texted me from the bathroom in like a panic that she was going to miss the five minute mark and I was like, hang up the phone and do your business and go back to class. But you know, it's like, here's the thing she's also got a report card last week and she's got a 95 average. So this is not a child who is making a problem, she's just using the bathroom.
Cleveland Oakes:And it's rules for the sake of rules, right.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, and it's also rules that aren't working.
Cleveland Oakes:Okay.
Lindsay Oakes:Because this is not a child who's running away from class. Her grades are great, the comments from the teachers are great. This is like you controlling which we just talked about a group of girls instead of just letting them be who they are and do what they want to do, right? I mean, remember the mandatory college fair that they had a few weeks ago that I had to actually send a note. This time I sent the note that she couldn't go to because she's already looked at all of her colleges. So why do we need to go there for four hours on a weeknight to talk to all of the same colleges that she's already looked at and we've taken her to?
Lindsay Oakes:Like those things are not mandatory to me. So stop with your stupid rules and let kids be who they are and let kids come with their parents If the parents feel it's good for them to come. I didn't feel like we needed to go and do that. You've already been to one with her and then we've done our own chores. So it's like leave kids alone, let them be who they are and stop trying to control them into things. Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:I think I can't you know. I think that's a perfect place to stop it. I'm looking at the clock too.
Lindsay Oakes:And I can go and pick her up from Grand Central.
Cleveland Oakes:I could imagine the Queen Munma is going to be. She's going to have a talking to us, even if she waits 30 seconds longer, but I do want to close it by saying and lens, if you have any final words after this, please, adam? But approachability is a key component to effective parenting and thank you for listening to these two parts. It impacts trust, it impacts emotional regulation, behavior and resilience, and by adopting an approachable attitude, parents will foster stronger connections with their children and they will create a supportive environment where open communication thrives.
Lindsay Oakes:Linz, do you have anything else to add? That if you feel that your parenting is not really working, the things that you're doing are not really working or not meshing with your child, then, like, get your child a level of support, right, and that's what we did and she's thriving now. And the way that she's learned to communicate with us as a result of her own therapy I mean, her therapy is like her therapist is like a magician, right. And this is a kid who was so against therapy and we had to sidetrack a couple of times because she wouldn't talk about certain things. But this is a kid who went from like throwing shoes and putting holes in the wall and scratching doors and chipping the paint to a kid who comes to us and says I really don't like when you do that.
Cleveland Oakes:Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Can we do something different? I've told you that that really upsets me, right, and so we have helped to create a kid who communicates with us, and when she does that, you and I are immediately like absolutely, let's find another way.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, that's it. I can't say it better than that. This has been Cleveland and this is Lindsay. And this has been another episode of the devil, you don't know. Please, if you have any questions on raising kids, on being a parent, that's approachable, email us at gettoknowthedevil at gmailcom. Also, rate, review us, like and subscribe on iTunes, spotify or any platform where podcasts are found.