When Friends Cross The Line, You’re Allowed To Walk Away

Ever felt the room change and your gut tighten while everyone else kept laughing? We’ve been there. A trip that started light turned tense fast—boozy bravado, off-color “jokes,” and the quiet demand to be loyal to the group over loyal to yourself. We talk candidly about that pivot from fun to cringeworthy, what it cost us, and why sometimes the bravest move is to step back without turning it into a spectacle.

We unpack the mechanics of adult peer pressure and groupthink—how smart, kind people still go along to get along—and share the simple language that helps you hold a line without lighting a match. Think: “That doesn’t land for me,” “I’ll give you a minute to rethink that,” and “I’m stepping away from this.” We break down the difference between impact and intent, how nervous system cues tell the truth before your brain does, and why genuine accountability repairs faster than defensiveness ever will.

You’ll also hear a hard-won lesson about place and respect. In tight-knit communities, your reputation moves faster than you do. Money can buy a table, but it can’t buy character. Show up with humility and you’re welcomed; show up entitled and you’ll meet a wall. That principle travels home, too: healthy friendships allow space without punishment, validate your discomfort, and don’t demand that you shrink to fit. Unhealthy ones weaponize loyalty, minimize harm, and call your boundaries “drama.”

If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s disloyal not to take a friend’s side, we offer a different standard: integrity over loyalty, always. Real friends can disagree, repair, and grow. And when repair isn’t possible, a quiet exit is still a powerful choice. Listen, reflect, and then tell us: when did you choose peace over the crowd? If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

30 Second Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Are you ready? This is Cleveland. And this is Lindsay.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we gonna be talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

When friends cross the line, navigating social pressure and personal boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

You know what's crazy is you think as you get older that navigating friendships and navigating uh people would become easier because you just would assume that everybody's mature.

Main

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Right, right, right. Before we get into that though, I actually want to tell you something really funny that I haven't told you all week. Okay. So I was waiting until we recorded because I wanted to hear your reaction to this. So on Wednesday, you know, Huck Huckleberry Tim asked if he could borrow the car, and he hasn't borrowed the car in a really long time. Right. So I picked him up after I finished my workday so that he could use the car and he was gonna bring it back tonight. But obviously, given the weather, we brought it back here a little bit earlier. But anyway, he asked if he could borrow the car, and so we were in the car and I picked him up at his house. And while we were driving back here, he asked about our vacation and how it was, and I said, Great. And then he asked when we were going away again, and then he said, you know, I can house sit for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Right. That's why you have your own place now. Because when you lived here and you house sat and you house sat for us, it wasn't working out.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

There were big house parties, there were sick pets. Yeah, and so I reminded him about the house parties, and he was like, it was only one really big party. And I was like, There was more than one action, yeah. It was more than one. No, and I said, Remember the video footage? No, I didn't see that. I didn't see that video footage, but there was only a few people that wasn't as big as the other party.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, it was a lot of people in the house. They were laying on the couch, they were all around.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I mean coming and going all night long until five in the morning. I just thought you might find that a little bit amusing.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

But I think they were better behaved than the quote unquote adults that we went on vacation. We went on vacation with. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Well, let's talk about that a little bit, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Well, I don't want to really because we have recorded a whole episode about it, and then I was like, I really don't want to, you know, really make anybody feel like super bad uh about it. Maybe I'll I I think I might have just deleted it.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Maybe, maybe Well, I don't think it's about making anyone feel bad. I think it's you know, it's talking about what I I what I presented earlier, which is, you know, navigating social pressure and personal boundaries and what happens in certain social situations and how are others supposed to or expected to react to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Because what's interesting is, and I don't want to just put in the context of of what of our experience, but as adults, period, there is still like all the the the pressure that you had in the school in in the playgrounds, you would think that that would gone after school. But I actually have a client who's in his 30s that actually was telling me that he's navigating that right now.

30 Second Outro

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Well, I think adults struggle with being authentic. Who am I? I think a lot of people don't know who they are. And when you don't know who you are, then you will conform, right? Or you'll compromise the things that you believe in and your authenticity for acceptance with a certain group. And so I think what, you know, I just to briefly kind of touch on, you know, what happened was that there, you know, we went on a vacation. You and I go on vacation a lot, and we've been on vacation to the British Virgin Islands many, many times, and I've been going there for 25 years, and I know a lot of people there. And so it's a very small island, and I explained that it's like a game of telephone. If something happens in one place, everybody knows before you can even get five minutes down the road. Right. And so, you know, I think I think let let's really just kind of talk more than the situation about how things can go from fun to uncomfortable really quickly.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, I I think um the idea is how dynamics can go from inappropriate behavior, and then there's the pressure, still, even as adults, and you're in your late 40s, I'm in my early 50s, of just go along with it, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

You know, so you know me, I don't go along with anything.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

It's just a joke. It's just a joke, you know, it's just an off-color remark.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

But sometimes the joke's not funny.

unknown 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

So what do you do when the joke is not funny? Is everybody still supposed to go along with the joke?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

That's the question, right? So in this episode, we're gonna talk about separating yourself from the group and how to do so in a way that doesn't create drama. Um how subtle pressure can make you feel like you need to take sides in in adult uh conflicts, um, how group think or how the group is behaving can make you override your own personal values, and why protecting your peace isn't selfish and the power of validating your own discomfort. And so this episode is for you is if you've ever felt pressured to stay silent when a group of people that you're with, be they friends or family, I actually talked to somebody the other day, oh David, right? When we he talked about his family vacation in Puerto Rico that he said was bonkers that was off the wall because of so many misbehaved people and learning to just keep your peace when everything around you is falling into chaos.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Well, and a big part of that, which I always say is if you are okay with the choices that you make and the things that you do, then it really doesn't matter if someone else takes your side or not. Right.

unknown 5:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

So so let's get into it. This is your topic. I want you to introduce it and talk about it, and I'll just do some feedback with you. Well, you could talk about it too. Yeah, well, we are both gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

But you know, we were on a vacation, and let's just say that we knew two of the people that came along with us, and they brought a whole lot of people along with them that we didn't know and had never met before. And, you know, everything started out okay, but it just quickly went from fun to uncomfortable when things got out of control and there was a lot of drinking happening, and some off-color comments were made. In particular, in public and in front of not only other tourists, but in front of local people and in front of people that we've known for a long time, that we see every time we go on vacation. And so, you know, what what was hard for me was the I I was almost unaware of some of the comments because I was already uncomfortable with the dynamic and how out of control things were going before things even got to their worst point. And so I was holding myself back and staying, even though we'd be in the same bar or restaurant, I was kind of staying, you know, 20 feet away. I would sit at the bar, everyone else would be out on a deck at the table. And I was, I was very embarrassed by the behavior before it even got really embarrassing. And then some really off-color comments happened that I didn't even hear. And I was kind of put in this place of I was cringing, but I didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Right, right. I remember you in the in the in the indigo. Um, you started off at the corner of the bar. I went to the bathroom, and by the time I came back, like you were already, you were way pressed up.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

I was by the wall because I said, I do not want anybody to sit next to me but you. I don't want, I don't want anyone to talk to me. It was you know, and the thing is is that when you go to a place where you don't live, you don't really belong there. You are a visitor. Right. And when you are a visitor, you should behave the same way that you would behave if you were at home. Yeah. And, you know, and you should never be making remarks to someone that you think are funny because you can't predict how people are going to take what you say.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Right. When I um when I worked where in in my corporate job, you know, we had a respect in the workplace, um, which they should also probably do respect in the vacation place class, also. And they talked about, you know, jokes and comments and and oh, it's just a joke. Oh, it's just, it's, it's just funny. It's all in good fun. But certain things, especially when you're in a Caribbean country and you say something like, if this was America, we would call ice on you, is kind of like lands with a thud, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

And there's this idea Well, and you also have to realize that sometimes what's funny to one person is not funny to another person. And you have to think always, and this is something that you and I do, and I think we're kind of calculated in our response sometimes, you always have to look at what you are doing and remember that the way the other person perceives it is very real to them, and that's their experience in the situation.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

There's um uh a a note that you wrote down called The Moment That I Knew, right? And it's and then I think when I was reading over it, is like, are you listening to your body in those in those moments when your body is like, wow, this is getting ready to go off the rails? Like, I don't like the way this is making me feel. Uh well, that's like a nervous system reaction. Right. And it was something that we learned at work in those respect in the workplace classes that if you come across a conversation that makes you uncomfortable, even if you are not the person being conversated with, you have the right to say, Hey, I know that I'm not a part of this conversation, but what you're saying to this other person is making me uncomfortable, right? And I think that is exactly kind of what went down.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

No, that is what went down in in the in the Well, and I did speak up and I and I tried to speak up, and I I referenced our friendship, being friends for a long time, and being able to say, hey, what happened yesterday is didn't sit right with me then and it's still not sitting right with me now. And I'm really I'm uncomfortable, I'm embarrassed, and I, you know, it just, you know, because the the feedback I was getting about certain people were, wow, you guys know people who are worthless scum. And to me that hurt. It hurt me, but it also hurt that someone would talk about friends of ours that way. And, you know, and I think that was really this place where I got caught in this position of, well, what should I do? Like, should I continue to associate with the worthless scum, quote unquote? Or should I pull myself away and just associate with you and anyone else who's on vacation and just go off and do our own thing? And we ended up doing that.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

So let me ask you a question, right? To to move it away from the vacation aspect of it. What would you suggest to someone who in the real world, not and even though that we were in the real world, but in a real world scenario or in a regular day scenario, and they're caught up uh in a conversation in an office that they might not be feel comfortable with, or they're without with their family, and there's behavior that is taking place that they're not comfortable with, how would you should they you would is the best way to handle that?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

I think it depends what's being said, but oftentimes you can say to somebody, I'm gonna give you a minute and let you think about what you're saying.

unknown 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Right? Or you can say, you know what, that doesn't really align with me. And you've got to think about it from another perspective. Everybody was caught in this, like, I'm drinking and it's fun, and then it became I was drunk, so well, because it's not my fault, they should have been able to take a joke. And the thing is, is you know, in the come across as a joke.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, yeah. And and and I want to talk about this idea, I want to move on, was literally, you chose, you should have, you should have stuck, no matter what our behavior was, you should have stuck with the people that you came with, even if our behavior was was irreprehensible. Well, that's tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

That was after I tried to have a conversation and say, I'm not mad about what happened. It was just really embarrassing and painful for me. It was embarrassing because I know people and I wouldn't speak this way to people. And then there was a part of me that was like, maybe people will think of me this way because these are the people that I'm here with. And I don't want to be associated with that. I don't like my name in people's mouths. And then, you know, the other part of it is, you know, what, you know, what do you like, how do you, how do you navigate that? Like, what do you do? And um, and the only person that has to be okay with what my decision ultimately was is me. And I the finger was pointed at me and saying, well, you should have, even if what happened is true, which by the way is an admission of guilt to me, but even if what happened is true, then you should have taken my side because when we go home, we're all going home together. And that's not right, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

There's this idea Absolutely not. There's this idea called groupthink, right? Groupthink versus integrity. And groupthink references uh a study, um, um, an idea that was brought up by S Solomon Ash uh in his conformity experiments and showed that people often go along with the group even when they know that the behavior of the group.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Because, like I said earlier, they compromise their authenticity and their own, you know, their own way of thinking for acceptance. And I don't do that. And I will never do that. And here's if it leaves me with zero friends, I don't care. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

But here's the crazy thing, it at least in our circumstance, right? And like I said, I love everybody that I I I love everybody. I'm not angry at anybody, but I do think that folks should be accountable for their behavior. In regards to me, I always ask myself, I always ask myself, what part in the story did I play, right? And so and I and so even in this story that I am telling, I am not innocent, right? I am not innocent because there were probably a couple of things that I could have done differently or done or communicated better, more than likely, right? So I'm not saying that that, like, wow, we're so great and we are, you know, noble people, but we have integrity, right? We have jobs that that require integrity. And the thing I want to say about this idea of the group thing is when we talk to individuals separately, right? And we didn't even go back when it was like, oh, well, this person was running off their mouth. And everybody was like, wow, this is kind of crazy. This is nutty. Like this, some of the stuff here is happening is nuts. But when but when they got back into the group, it was like, wow, these two Yeah, Lindsay and Cleve, Lindsay and Cleve.

Marker 02

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Lindsay and Cleve, they go to the dinner by themselves, they're not eating dinner with us, they're going off on their own, they think they're better than everybody else, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

And so it this this idea that you have to be loyal to the group over yourself is something that everyone struggles with. You know, I think we struggle with it in families, we struggle with it, you know, in our friend groups, in our peer groups, and at work. And then how to go back to where we were at before we had the technical difficulty, how would you tell someone to manage this? Like I know what we did in our case, but how would you tell someone to manage like how to be in how to maintain integrity when the people that you came with are no longer behaving in the way that you feel comfortable with?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

You have the right to speak up. And you have the right to say that what is happening feels a certain way for you. Right. Right. That's where people struggle. And it's a big difference between pointing your finger at someone and shaming and blaming them and telling them everything that they're doing wrong, although there were a lot of things that were done wrong. Right. And basically bringing it back to yourself and saying, hey, what happened here? And which was what I did. I tried really hard to say, hey, what happened here yesterday was really embarrassing for me. It was, it made me really uncomfortable, and I want to talk about it. And that person just went on to basically cast the blame on everyone else and to blame the husband and then blame the bartender and say the blart bartender was a jerk and has a bad attitude. And here's the thing with the bartender they didn't have a problem with the bartender on Friday night. Right. When they went and had a good time and weren't out of control. And so now all of a sudden, they get out of control and it suddenly is the bartender's fault. Uh when they were taking pictures with the bartender and goofing around on Friday night, everything was fine. But now all of a sudden, when you've done something that's questionable, now you want to point the finger at everybody else instead of taking a look at yourself. And that's the problem that I have is when someone says to you, hey, what is happening here is embarrassing to me. And like I said this multiple times to you and other people, there's a moment there where you might have to look at it and say, wow, that's someone else's experience with me. Right. And maybe I need to reflect on my own behavior or on my own words, my actions, my thoughts. And maybe maybe I did have some kind of culpability here.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

There's a great movie with Michael J. Fox and Sean Penn. It's called Casualties of War. And it's about this idea that we're talking about. We're, you know, uh Michael J. Fox is with a group of American soldiers that uh kidnap and rape uh like an innocent Vietnamese girl, and and they pressure Michael J. Fox to try to go along with it. And, you know, it's the whole movie is about him struggling with the, you know, with their bad behavior and the fallout of being like, no, I'm gonna go against the group. Uh I want to call this casualties of vacation. Um, but it's actually something that a lot of folks have to deal with, right? Is friends that make you that try to peer pressure you, even as adults, to go along with what they with their bad behavior, right? Um to pivot a little bit off of vacation, I think we've all struggled with friends that try to peer pressure us into doing things that we're not comfortable with. But this is the thing about healthy friendships, right? Healthy friendships don't require you to morally compromise yourself. Healthy friendships allow space without the friend punishing you, right? There are a lot of friends, like so this argument, this little tiff that we got into right now. I talked to the husband and I was like, yo, man, there's stuff that I could have done differently and stuff that I could have done better. And and, you know, this is what we were upset about and unhappy with. And he was like, yo, dude, no big deal on our part. I would love to sit down and just squash it and put it behind us and continue on, right? That's a real friend, right? Yeah. But other people are like, well, fuck you, and not, you know, excuse me for cursing, but screw you, and this is what you did wrong, and I did wrong.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

And in no way, well, it was basically what what I did wrong in this other person's eyes was that we separated ourselves and we went to dinner alone and we went, um, you know, basically after that, we basically had an entire vacation on our own. Yeah. And we separated from the group. And, you know, and what's interesting about that is, and I will say this, and I and I have no problem saying that, is that this person is a mean girl. Right. And she's always been a mean girl, and she was a mean girl when I met her. And I'm a choice to her. Right. And so the thing is, is when there's another choice, I don't, I don't have a place in in her game and in her life. And so, you know, what happens there is that, like I said, I, you know, in the when we were at the beach in the group and we were at dinner in the group, there was no attempt to made to made to sit and talk to me and have a conversation and um, you know, and to socialize with me. But then as soon as we separated from the group, it was like, oh, now Lindsay's the problem. Right. Lindsay's the problem because she's separated from the group. And, you know, and the thing is, is that it's, you know, I don't, I don't really associate with people who are referred to in the way that they were referred to. And I also don't associate with people who treat me as a choice. Right. And, you know, I think that when I reflect on my own friendships and I spoke to some other friends of mine that I'm really close with about that, and I said, you know, I would hope that if I ever had an interaction like this with you, that we would have a conversation. Um, and I know that if a friend came to me and said, Hey, what happened made me really uncomfortable, I would take accountability for that and I would say, wow, that's your experience. I'm really sorry. And obviously that wasn't my intention. Right. And so, you know, it's hard to find forgiveness. Well, you know, not really forgiveness, but it's hard to repair a relationship when it's very much like there's no place for your own feelings and emotions and your own experience in it. And that's why I think for me, it's it's a no. It's a no. There's no like we can squash it and go out. No, that's a no for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

I want to, I wanna speaking on that, and I touched on it a little bit, but I want to talk about the difference between the characteristics of a healthy friendship and and and and contrast them against the characteristics of an unhealthy friendship. Healthy friendships don't require people to morally compromise, as I said earlier. They allow space without punishment. Me and you can disagree, and I'm not gonna put you on a timeout because you and I disagree on stuff, right? Right. I have friends and I have a friend that who who likes to, you know, actually reached out to me the other day and was like, hey, why haven't you talked to me? Because I was like, the last time, you know, like we talked, like you actually would threaten me with litigation for some stupid stuff. And he was like, Oh yeah, I did say that. I didn't, I don't remember. Um, they don't weaponize, to your point, they don't weaponize loyalty, right? And friends validate the feelings of the other person even when they disagree. Like I said, when I talked to the husband, I was like, Man, I understand your point of view. I'm gonna validate it. I'm also gonna own what I did, and let's talk about it, right? Unhealthy friendships. If you're not with me, you're against me, is what you just said. Well, that's what happened in this situation. They minimize your discomfort, right? They pressure you into silence so for the harmony of the group. And I think that is literally those three things, right? Are what happened to you or happened to us in this. If you're not with me, you're against me. I don't care if I made you uncomfortable, everybody was having fun, right? Right. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

You know what? It was the other person's fault. Yeah. You're uncomfortable, everyone's uncomfortable. Oh well, it wasn't me, it was them.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Right. And then the last part, which is you should have just been quiet and let us just do what we wanted to do. And that is not what makes real friends, right? No. Loyalty versus integrity. I would rather my friends be have integrity than be loyal to me. We can look out in the world and see what happens when people are loyal and and and not and don't go out with integrity. There's this little thing called the Epstein Files where Jeffrey. Epstein and all his friends were doing all types of crazy stuff, right? And people were loyal to Jeffrey and didn't ha manage the with integrity. And now we can look at how many lives and how many careers have been destroyed by it, right? Right. Is when we explore friendship, is loyalty about agreement or should it be about honest interactions with each other?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Well, it's about, it's not about agreement, right? It's about acceptance. And it's about accepting someone for their differences as well as the things that you have in common, as well as the similarities. And it's also an acceptance that people are going to do things differently. They're going to think differently. They're going to, you know, they're they're going to behave differently. They're going to have different opinions. And, you know, I think that, you know, I learned a lot from this because you and I talked about it. And, you know, you and I always don't see eye to eye on things. We we parented very differently. We have different, we have different viewpoints in a lot of things, right? You're very Christian. I'm not very Christian. There's certain things that you believe in that I don't believe in. And what we do have is communication. Right. And and we have the ability to say, hey, all right, you know what? If the other person is saying that, it may very well be valid for them.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Right. And here's another point, right? If I have to betray my values to prove myself loyal to you, that's not loyalty. That's compliance, or in, or in some cases, it's complicity.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be in a relationship where I have to compromise who I am for acceptance. I will say it again. I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be in a relationship where I have to compromise my authenticity for acceptance. I know what I believe in. I know what I stand for. And you either accept me for that or you don't. And you know what? If you don't, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

So part of what caused the schism uh in this little uh drama that we were in is because we chose to to withdraw from the group. Yeah. Right? That often causes schisms in in in real life and families and work, is like I I want to call it the punishment of independence. Um because you decided to remove yourself from the group, this is what'll happen. And we see it happen in families. It might have happened in in yours because you've made certain decisions. I know it's happened in mine, is where the people ice you out, they call you dramatic, and then they accuse you of overreacting. I think once again, going back to this little micro drama that played out for us in Tortola, I think all three of those things are true about what our experience was.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I think so. And that's exactly where the finger pointing went. There was no, wow, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. But what there was was, well, you went out and you didn't come to dinner with us, and you went here and you went there. And in that moment, I said, All right, I did. I did, right? There's no argument to have there. And I don't need to have a back and forth. Um, I think that, you know, people, it it's really, it's really hard when you're a person who's really insecure and you are a person who thrives on the opinion of the group, whether or not you subscribe to their beliefs or not, then, you know, again, it's really difficult to be around people who are independent and who are okay whether or not they're part of the group or not.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Why does space, why does acting that way trigger some people? And I know for for this individual, well, this individual has FOMO.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

She she will compromise every single value that she has for acceptance. It is more important for her to be a part of the group. And, you know, and so, right, and I mean, I think we've talked about it before because there's been other examples where another mutual friend had set up a dinner and she couldn't make it and she was mad at us both. And I was like, I told her straight up I'm not doing this with you. Like it for her, if you don't make a plan, and if you make a plan and she's not available, then the plan shouldn't be made. It's all about her, right? And so when you have that level of insecurity, it becomes all about you. And you internalize everything and you make it personal.

unknown 26:12

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I think some critical questions that folks have to ask themselves when they've had difficult interactions with either friends or family is have you ever stayed quiet? And I know I've been guilty of this in the past, uh, especially with my family. You've called me out for it. Have you ever stayed quiet to avoid being labeled difficult when you knew the group was doing something wrong?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah. I mean, I stay quiet sometimes because sometimes in certain situations, I truly don't know what to say. And I and I will admit that I was at a loss for words there. After I tried to have a mature conversation and it wasn't received, then I just said, you know what, I'm going to withdraw. And that was the part that I played in it. And so could I have continued to try? Yes. But there were certain individuals in the group that were so out of control from sunup until sundown that I felt just, I had a physical reaction in my body of discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Right, right. Um, another question is when is the last time you've chosen peace over being over making the popular decision? Right? Oftentimes the popular decision is not one that aligns with us, it's not one that we agree with. So when is the last time you chose peace, or in this case, authenticity? Well, I always choose authenticity. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Right. And that's, you know, that's who I am. I I didn't always, but I always do now because I've worked really hard. And I, you know, I've worked, I've worked really hard to be this person who has values and who is secure in who they are and who knows who they are and doesn't compromise, you know, what their values are and what their beliefs are for acceptance in a group. And I I like myself, right? I've worked really hard to love myself, which is a lot of work in the world that we live in. And so when you work so hard to love yourself and you do love yourself, you don't really care if anybody else loves you or not. I don't do things that are questionable. At the end of the day, when I go to bed, I don't lay awake thinking, oh, I shouldn't have done this or I should have done this differently. At the end of the day, when I go to bed, I can lay my head on the pillow and I can say, I lived a compassionate and empathetic version of myself today.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

A question I want to ask you that a lot of people uh have, as even as adults, have come to me and sat across with me um from the counseling um on the counseling office and have asked me do true friendships allow for disagreement between friends?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Of course. Absolutely. You're not always going to agree with something that somebody says. But the thing is, is that there's a way to have mature and respectful dialogue around it.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Right. Uh, one of the one of the gentlemen that we met on vacation, very lovely fellow. Um, you know, when I first saw him get out of the car and he had on the he had on an American flag and was like, I'm a two-way guy. I was like, oh my God, this dude is gonna be a piece of work. Um and he actually turned out to be a really nice, really, uh, really nice fella. And I'm glad that I took the opportunity to talk, and I'm glad that I took the opportunity to get to know him better because, you know, I would have been missed out on a very interesting and special uh human being. Um one of the things that we talked about was in the Bible is are there's Paul and Barnabas are both Christians, both followers of Christ, both believers of God, had a sharp disagreement with each other and went their own way. Um but when they came together many months later, it was as if nothing happened. So real friends are going to have moments of disagreement. They're going to have moments where they question uh the friendship, but at the end of the day, real friends allow you to express yourself and don't want you to compromise what you who you are or your authenticity for them or for the sake of the group. Um so a question that I have for for the audience, but I'll ask you, Lindsay, is it disloyal to not always take your friend's side?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

No.

unknown 30:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Because wouldn't you want someone to hold you to something?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Right, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

And and that was something that that I think really was the final straw for me was the you needed to take my side, even if what happened is true, which to me is a complete admission of guilt. Right. Even if what happened is true, we're going home together, so you should have taken my side. Okay, so I should have compromised who I was and allowed you to speak to somebody in a derogatory manner and make racist comments and behave embarrassingly because I might see you on the other end in New York. No, thank you. No thanks, right? And that's the thing. It's it it just turns into this whole thing of why, you know, why why should you take someone's side?

unknown 31:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

You know, I will stand up for what I believe in. And if and I will be on somebody's side if their behavior is ethical and moral, but I won't be if it's not.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And I think what what folks suffer with, especially when it comes to groupthink and and remaining in dysfunctional families, dysfunctional jobs, uh, dysfunctional friendships, is this idea, the disease to please, which um Harriet B. uh breaker uh writes about in in her book, um is oftentimes there's this desire to please everyone, even when we know the behavior is wrong, right? And like I said, we definitely saw that going on within the group dynamic. Because even though everybody after the fact is like, well, Cleve was running off at the mouth, everybody was coming to me and was like, wow, this this is kind of crazy. Like this dude, I wasn't downstairs when somebody got flipped over in a chair. I didn't know, I didn't see that story.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Well, no, and I'm glad I wasn't. Yeah, yeah, some talk about embarrassment.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, yet somehow that story was relayed to me. Yet, you know, I am the person that was running off at the mouth and and telling everybody about it. I mean, listen, there is a degree of responsibility that we all have as adults, right? And I'm not perfect, I'm not always perfect, and I will never claim to be perfect. Do I talk too much at times? Absolutely. You tell me that. Other people have told me that. Um, but as a professional, uh, do I try to maintain a uh a level of integrity, uh, a standard of uh of who I am, and a standard of professionality, even when I'm having fun? Absolutely. And real friends understand that there will be disagreements, there will be points in our friendship where we don't see eye to eye, but I will let you have your space. I will let you know, do it, do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Well, here's the perfect thing, right? We're very good friends with Lori and Dave. Uh-huh. And would you say that Lori and I probably see more eye to eye on things and you and Dave do? Right. Do we ever have a conflict amongst us? No, absolutely not. But Lori and I can say to you, hey, you're generalizing on this. Or, you know what? No, that's actually kind of off base for me. Right. Right? And nobody gets mad. And no one says, no, you need to be on my side. Yeah. Right? We're all mature adults who are able to have a conversation about something.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Listen, I think Lori and I don't agree on 80% of the things we talk about, right? But she is still one of my closest and dearest friends. And I don't mind that Lori has a different opinion than me on things. I think Dave and I don't agree on everything. I know Dave and I don't agree 100% on everything, but that is what makes the friendship interesting. It's what makes it challenging, right? It's what makes it I don't need to fall into a group think with folks. I need to fall in with folks that are challenging me to different ideas. And I think part of what makes our friendship with Lori and Dave and and and the other like functional adults we have in life is that we don't always agree. I don't always agree. Like, I don't like But don't you like doesn't that make you like the person more?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Even more you can have a really great dialogue with someone on why they believe in this, why they don't, right? Lori and I got together a couple of weeks ago. I think you were working. I went over. Dave was busy with something in the evening, and we visited with him briefly, but then he had to talk to his mom and stuff. And Lori and I were able to have a great chat. And she was like, Oh, I'm so glad we had got to have a chat about that because Cleve and Dave don't like to talk about that. And and for us, that was great, right? But there was no part of it that is like a pointing a finger or you need to take my side and you need to be this, because that's not what good real friendship is about, right? Real friendship and communication is about being able to have relationships but also have your own opinions.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah. On a final thought, um, a final thought on this. What is what would you tell someone who might be struggling with friends or struggling um in a dynamic in which they feel like they're compromising their authentic authenticity as an adult to maintain a say that again? How uh as as we close on this, what advice would you give to someone who might be in this situation in their permanent real life, either at a job or at a relationship or in a friendship, in which they feel like they're already always compromising themselves to be a part of the group?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Well, I think it's what when we went to see Gabor Mate in New York City, right? It's the way he closed his whole talk. Figure out who you are, and for God's sakes, be who you are. Don't be afraid to speak up. Right? People respect you more when you have your own opinions. And when you set the boundaries with people, you learn a lot about them by how they react to the boundaries. So if my boundary to you is, hey, that was uncomfortable. I don't speak to people that way, and I can't hang around with you now because you do and you think it's okay. And that person is gonna say to me, Hey, okay, well, this is somebody else's fault, then you know what? That's how you expect that's how you expect you accept my boundary, then you know what? No need to even be around this person anymore. Right. Right. And so it's about being able to have your boundaries clearly state your boundaries, and then accept the consequences of another person maybe not agreeing with them.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Right, right. Um, my final thought on it is this is being part of a group should never require that you abandon yourself. Uh, you can love your friends and you can still disagree with them. You and I both know that. We love each other and we don't always agree with each other.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

You don't always agree.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

You know, you can value that connection and still choose distance. And here was the crazy thing about this whole trip is there were 10 other people there, right? So if we chose to go off by ourselves for a couple of days because we were uncomfortable with how you were behaving and you still had a good time, why are you mad at the time?

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Well, that's the part that's the part that blows my mind so much. First of all, when I was on a beach with you with 12 or 13 people, you didn't even talk to me. Right. But if I sat away from you at the beach, now it's a problem. Or if we go to dinner in a huge group and you don't speak to me the entire night, then it it becomes a problem now because I went to a different restaurant than you. Um, you know, and the other part, like I do want to actually talk about because it's kind of funny, right? Is this finger pointing. And I actually do have a level of compassion for this person, and I'll speak to that very briefly because there was so much finger pointing that it's almost comical, right? There was so much fighting going on in that room that you and I can hear it through the walls. Other people that are staying there could hear the entire argument word for word through the wall. And when I said, hey, everybody can hear this. Oh, you mean that woman, that blonde woman, she's a prostitute and the creeper downstairs. Listen, if that chick is a prostitute on vacation for a month, hey, good for her. But what does that have to do with your behavior?

SPEAKER_00 37:51

And and that's a whole other episode for another day, which I would love to talk about. Deflection is deflection and not, you know, being present in the moment, right? Is not being present. Listen, take it for what it is. I take feedback all the time for what it is.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

If somebody said to me the things that were said about this person, they were horrible things. I said to you, I would be reduced to a puddle of tears. I would be sitting in a puddle of my own tears, and I would say, Lindsay, wow, you have a lot of work to do on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And it goes back to my closing statement is protecting your peace isn't about being dramatic. Like you don't need to be dramatic. You, it's it's mature to be like, yo, I don't, I don't have a part of this. One of the things that I tell my young patients that struggle with so much, and I'm gonna curse for a second. We haven't cursed for a while, but this is important. You have to give zero fucks about certain things and be, as Dr. Mate said, be true to yourself. Doesn't mean you be a piece of garbage, right? Right. But it means that you drama drama-free, remove yourself from scenarios, from situations and people that do not benefit you.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Right. 100%. And and the thing is, is that if if you are forced to compromise who you are, then you really need to explore the relationships you're in.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

And you don't have to make a lot of noise. You don't have to make a lot of noise. The sometimes the best thing to do and the bravest thing to do, JT talks about it in the critical thinker, when he talks about people who are like looking to leave a cult-like religion or or a cult-like situation. Go quietly. Just go quietly.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Just be like And that's what I did. I just moved quietly because I did try to have a conversation and I did try to say literally, hey, we've been friends for a long time. Can we talk for a minute? Right. And it immediately turned into a well, I want to go back there. Well, you can't now because you really were horribly off base, right? And and and then before we wrap up, just one other thing you said, right, is when you're pointing the finger at everyone else and you're just not present, right? We were in one of the most beautiful places, right? And and and I can argue that, and I know, you know, Tortola is absolutely my heaven on earth. It is one of my favorite places in the world. And I no matter how many other places I go, there's something that draws me back there. And every single day, right, we sit on this patio in this apartment that we rent that costs nothing compared to what you would pay to be beachfront in many other places in the world, right? And and there is this charm there, and there is this safety, and there is just this sense of community there where everybody is accepted. And every single night there is the absolute most gorgeous sunset in the world. And you're so busy doing everything else, and and and you're not present in this moment of seeing that sunset, right? And so the the lesson is it's just like you don't have to blow out your hair, you don't have to dress to the nines, you don't have to sit here and and point the finger at everybody else. Like you just have to go out and watch the sunset.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Look at look at the sense of wonder and community that they have there. Like as we drove around the island for the 11 days that we were there and we picked up hitchhikers after you got annoyed with me because I drove past somebody on their way to the house.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Well, because I felt bad because that's how they travel there. So when you drive by them and you don't bring them to work, they kind of give you a little side eye.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

But look at but uh look at how amazing that that place is that people wake up in Tortola every morning with the expectation that a stranger is going to take them to where they need to go.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Even the kids going to school. Their mothers like send them out of the house, they're standing on the side of the road in a uniform hitching a ride to school.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

You could never do that. Would you ever send your kid outside here in the Bronx and be like, find a ride?

SPEAKER_00 41:25

But there's no sense of community. And what's so funny about America, which is the quote unquote, the safest, the most liberal, most greatest place on the earth, no one. Nancy Guthrie's still missing, and no one knows where she's at. And and there is no there is no level of community or safety or friendship here like that here. And so when people try to bring their toxic friendship and their toxic group to you, you don't have to conform with it, right? No, not at all. There was such a sense of brotherhood there that when Shane walked up to me and said to me, Do you partake in that? I felt ashamed. Right? Right. Of course. Because everyone there has a standard. And yes, I'm not idealizing a place because all humans have problems, but there's a level of standard. There's a standard of we don't do that down here. We respect people's individuality, but we also realize that the that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and that we work together as community. We work together as friends and family, and we don't pressure you, but we have the expectation that you're gonna come here.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Well, you're gonna come here and you're gonna behave the way that we behave here in the place that we live, where we are from, where we belong. And you don't belong here, but you can belong here, right? Right? You can if you do the things that you we do here, and if you become a part of our community and you isolate yourself and you become an ugly American, and by that I mean ignorant and arrogant. Yes, right? You cannot become a part of that if you become an ignorant American, like an ugly American, right? If you have that sense of ignorance of it's not me and this arrogance and I'm better than everybody. And I mean, I think one of the comments was, well, we put the money in his pocket. No, sweetheart. Yeah, no, he doesn't really need your one night of drinks. Right, right. Because every single night I went in that bar and it was just chock full of people. That your your your one week here is not what's gonna keep him, you know, paying his bills.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Well, he hasn't he has integrity, right? And before we go, though, the he he did share. What was ironic is before that happened, is he shared a story with us about how, and I tried to stress that to some of the folks there that this was their first time there, that this is not how this place works. This is not Jamaica, this is not the Dominican Republic, where you can just buy your way out of everything and then misbehave. This is not Cancun's spring break 1996.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah, and I was there, believe me. So I know what I know what that spring break was like. You know, that's why I referred to that.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

This is a place that the mega rich go to with their on their super yachts.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

If you've ever watched Below Deck, and they still get out in a pair of flip flops shorts and a t shirt.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

But Vishal told a story where just a couple of weeks ago somebody calls him up. Of a mega boot and is like, hey, I have such I have this many people coming to dinner, and what did Vishall say? You tell the story. We're fully booked.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

And it's a small place and it's a boutique little place and it's very popular. And then he hears the guy hanging up. Oh, well, that's fine. I'll just head over there. I got something for him. Comes over with money and is like, I just called you. You know, um, we just need a table and slips him the money, and he's like, take the money, puts it in the catch or something. It's like, thank you. But we're still fully bluffed. Right? Because that's the thing. They don't need you.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

And they don't want you if that's the way that you act.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

And and you know, and so on that note, right, we can wrap up, but it's just you go somewhere, when you go somewhere else, the best thing that you can do is try to fit in with the way that they do it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Be respectful.

unknown 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

And and you know, and and in America, I and I say this, you know, and I said this to you the other day is that if you go to somewhere where their friends are, you know, and and you act up, would they be okay with it? No. No, absolutely not. But so why do they think that I should be okay with it when they act up somewhere? Yeah, because it's not the states, because it's not America, because you're on vacation? No. I absolutely do not associate with that kind of behavior. I never do, I never will. And you know, for me, it's a wash. If you can't take accountability, lack of accountability and lack of awareness are my biggest triggers. Right, right. And so you can either take a look at it and say, wow, that was Lindsay's experience, or you don't. And if you can't, then it's not the friendship for me. And I have no problem with that.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Woo child, I feel you there. With that being said, this has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And this, after a long break, well, we've been traveling a minute, and we do have to, we say this every week, but this week we actually mean it. We will get back to regular cadence. Uh, saw a big spike in episode downloads.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

So I told you we should just one, I think you just have to get up with me at 5 a.m., have a cup of coffee, meditate, and record.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Yeah, so so thank you everyone. If you're new to the show, new fan of the show, uh, thank you so much for your support. It means a lot to us. We we we have these conversations mostly for fun. We're not trying to get famous, uh, but we do have these conversations between me and Lindsay and you guys just because we do care. Uh, we do love our the folks in our audience, and we do thank you for supporting, continuing to support the show. And we have a lot of interesting uh topics and guests that we do have lined up uh for the remainder of 2026 when we get down to a regular cadence of recording. Um, but that's Cleveland and Lindsay, and this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.