Loving-Kindness Meditation For People You Can’t Stand

Anger can feel like armor, but what if it’s actually the thing that keeps you stuck? We talk about metta loving-kindness meditation as a real-world tool for emotional regulation, stress relief, and staying grounded when someone cuts you off, talks down to you, or brings out your worst instincts. This isn’t a “just be nice” lecture. We get honest about the people who tighten something in us and why offering goodwill can feel impossible, even dishonest. 

We unpack what metta means in Buddhist meditation, why it’s not approval, and how it’s different from people pleasing. You’ll hear us work through common misunderstandings: Does wishing someone well excuse bad behavior? Do you have to like someone to practice compassion? What happens when your nervous system gets activated and your brain labels a person as danger? We connect the dots between trauma responses, the need to be right, and the urge to “get even,” then offer a clearer path that keeps your boundaries intact. 

We also make it practical: start with yourself, move to neutral people, and only then try a difficult person. If the phrases feel inauthentic, we explain how to work with that resistance instead of forcing it. We close with simple daily practices to create space between stimulus and response, plus an invitation to join Lindsay’s Deep Rest offering and community meditation. If this helped, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs calmer reactions, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

Karaoke, Vacation Plans, And Life Stuff

Cleveland Oakes 0:00

This is Cleveland. This is Lindsay.

Lindsay Oakes 0:02

And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we gonna be talking about today?

Speaker 0:08

Madame. Loving kindness. Even when it's hard to get.

Speaker 2 0:12

You know what? I'm gonna burst into some real hair, real quick here, and you're not gonna get here.

Speaker 0:16

We can't hear you though.

Speaker 2 0:17

I'm gonna get closer to the microphone. Or turn it up a little. Or turn it up a little. Oh my god.

Speaker 0:24

It's like you can't. I just want to do that. Now I can hear you better. Thank you, so many.

Speaker 2 0:30

You know what I mean? We wanna be we had a big barbecue that was popularist. We talked about that a little bit last week. Um and Dave and Demet some little bit more like let's do karaoke. So I'm gonna do some karaoke here for meta. What the world needs now is love is sweet love, love, sweet love. You know, I gotta be extra because I'm black. It's the only thing that is just too little. Uh I did that. Yay! I did that because like my sensing.

Speaker 1:04

Did you hear all that about cheering? I think the dogs didn't. It's probably my Amazon pack. Yeah, I think I ordered a few last minute things for vacation. No, I think I think the dogs. No, I think it was the Amazon guy. Perhaps.

Speaker 2 1:15

Or I think they just didn't like my singing. Or they're celebrating the.

Speaker 1:18

So let's just talk. We're gonna be going away. Right. Oh, did you? I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 1:23

Well, I was just saying, I saw maybe they were celebrating the Knicks. Maybe they were doing a Mike Brown and we're like the Knicks passed already.

Speaker 1:27

The parades already happened. All that's they're still celebrating.

Speaker 2 1:30

Yeah, who let the dogs out? Who who who who let the dog Okay anyway? I'm ranting. So what are we doing? What are we talking about, right? So I I want to start with this.

Speaker 1:40

Well, I was just gonna have some banter with you. Oh, so what's happening? Because you told me you love when I talk about our my bread on here.

Speaker 2 1:46

Oh God. Yes, go ahead. Let's talk about the bread before we get to. Tordola is doing so well.

Speaker 1:51

Tordola, you have me is doing so well. I mean, three loaves of sourdough today.

Speaker 2 1:56

I think you need to give well one, I think the one that's laced uh with the happy pills, and I we don't have anything that's laced with happy pills. But if there was one that was laced with happy pills, you should give that to uh or our neighbor, our neighbor next door so she can calm down.

Speaker 2:08

Um I always give her a loaf of sourdough.

Speaker 2 2:10

Oh, I think she'll be happy. Yes. What what kinds do you have today?

Speaker 2:14

I think I saw a two plain loaves and an olive rosemary loaf. And now um, you know, Huckleberry Tim has informed me that he would like an olive loaf. So I'm gonna try to fit that in, but it's already two o'clock. That'll be a lot of stretching and folding and waiting.

Speaker 2 2:27

But are you going? You know, we're gonna be gone for a long time.

Speaker 2:30

Well, if I do it tonight, I could bake it in the morning.

Speaker 2 2:33

Would you? I don't know if the is there an oven at the uh No, we don't have an oven in our room.

Speaker 2:38

We have a two burners and a toaster and a microwave. Uh, how about at the other place where we're staying next year? Yes, we are at the at the Columbus Sunset apartments. Yes, we do have a full kitchen there. Whoa. Yo, let's not even talk about that place because it's cheaper even than the elm. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 2:52

Yeah, but we love the elm.

Speaker 2:54

We do love the elm, but I just well, like our room at the elm was booked already for next winter, and I didn't want to be moving around between rooms, did you? No, not at all. Because once I settle, I want to be settled. That's it. I don't want to move around between rooms. So we have our one room um at the at the Columbus Sunset next year, where all the fun people stay, evidently. Evidently. I mean, we met them all last winter. It's crazy. It's gonna be a lot of debauchery going on at the Columbus Sunsets.

Speaker 2 3:19

Speaking of fun old people, how about that picture I showed you of Pete?

Speaker 1 3:23

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 3:24

Oh my god. Yeah, he was in the 70s.

Speaker 3:27

He really was. I was like, wow. He was. And how about my cousin and her husband are coming on vacation? Not old people, but um, and I've been trying now this afternoon. I'm like, to help them confirm their rental car because you know Denzel Klein, they kind of answer the phone every three days. Yeah. Well, you know, here's and yesterday she started trying to call him but didn't hear back. Wow. And I just call until I get somebody and then I confirm the rental car. But they they're like so laissez-faire about the rental car. That's timely service. Right. It's I I called them yesterday and I said to the lady, you know, I'm just checking, you know, I just want to check on the confirmation of the rental car. And I told her your name, and she's like, No, I don't have that name. Any other name? And I was like, Lindsay, but still Oaks. She's like, Yeah, that's it. That's it. Okay. Um, and I said, Should we come to the we'll come to the West? Come to the West End.

Speaker 2 4:16

Oh, yeah, I gotta take you to that too.

Speaker 4:17

I said, Okay, okay, we'll come to the West End. And so I said, if we come into town, uh, we'll figure out getting there. Don't come to town, just come to the West End. Okay, lady, there's like two ferries a day. Right. Okay, one that's about an hour and a half after we land, and then the other one four hours later. So you tell me what you want to do.

Speaker 2 4:34

No, they said the West End. Gonna go to the West End. We made that mistake last year. No, we went into town last year. Yeah, and Denzel and Denzel said we should have come in the west and he's like, even though the furry, an hour later. I know it's offensive to do accents, but I like to do it.

Speaker 4:48

Well, but this the problem is this time it's not an hour later. How much? It's it's we there's a 145 and that goes to the west end, or there's a 150 that goes into town, and then the next one is 5 p.m.

Speaker 2 5:00

Yeah, I think Denzel said still said do the 5 p.m. that he'll just wait. But we'll make it. We're landing uh barring any unforeseen occurrences, delays, we are landing at what 12 10? 12 10.

Speaker 5:13

And usually we land early. Yeah, and the bags come pretty fast, and we don't have customs there. Yeah. So typically the bags come out pretty quickly. Like you come out, remember you have to walk outside. I gotta figure out my bag situation into the airport, and then they give you all those free rum shots. Free rum. And then you go to collect your bag. Do you want to take just one big suitcase? We could talk about that after, but yeah, I think so. Yeah, maybe because you know why? I always pack so much stuff and wear about a third of it. Right. And I do recall last year when we were at the indigo house, we walked in there one evening to have dinner and drinks, and this man was like, Cleveland! That's right. And you were like, Steve. And I thought, oh wow, you must know Steve from at home. This is weird. What's going on? And Steve said, Matt Cleveland at the laundromat. Tuesday is laundry day.

Speaker 2 5:58

Yeah, I'm actually gonna pack some laundry detergent this time.

Speaker 6:00

I'm sure you are, because you have to do the laundry on vacation. Yes.

Speaker 2 6:05

If I'm only gonna be reduced to a few uh sets of clothes, then they need to be clean clothes. Um that is true. But that's true. That being the case, we're not trying to waste everybody's time with our lives. With our banter. So let's get into this.

Speaker 6:17

By the way, the patio looks really good. You did a great job out in the backyard. I just want to say that.

Speaker 2 6:22

It looks so good. Yeah, I broke my back freaking doing it last time.

Speaker 6:25

Um, sure, because there was a lot of dirt and leaves and rocks on there. It looks fantastic. Look at it. Looking out the back, the back window, and it looks so nice. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 6:36

Did you see the flowers?

Speaker 6:37

Oh, how nice they look? Yeah, they're out in the garden yesterday pinching the bolt off my basil.

Speaker 2 6:42

And did you see how well they bloomed? The everything looks beautiful.

Speaker 6:45

My zucchini is flowering, the tomatoes are coming in.

Speaker 2 6:48

Because the dogs aren't freaking eating it.

Speaker 6:50

But I need to go and take some of the weeds out of there. Yeah. Well, tomorrow morning we can do that early. Eventually. Anyway, let's

What Metta Really Means

Speaker 6:56

carry on. Let's see, talk about meta. Okay, so meta. Loving kindness.

Speaker 2 6:59

Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna just do our our our opening. There are some people we can easily wish well, friends, children, mentors, even strangers on a good day. And then there are people, and I can tell you who they are, because I have those people, I used to work with some of those people who immediately tighten something in us: people we judge, people we resent, people we avoid, people we feel disgust toward. Disgust is kind of strong, but there are people that I find distasteful. And in those moments, the idea of loving kindness can feel impossible or even dishonest. Um, this is where the practice of meta becomes real. Um, and meta isn't about liking everyone, it's about learning how to be consumed, not how not to be consumed by a version. So, Linz, is I I know people are used to meta being Facebook. Can you tell us what meta is? As I'm just recording.

Speaker 7:53

Well, meta is a practice of loving kindness. So it is a specific type of meditation practice. It's not about liking someone or disliking someone, but it is actually the word meta means loving kindness.

Speaker 2 8:09

Why is that concept important today? I had a road rage incident which was very unlike me, like me. Even even I recall, even grok remembers it. I was very disappointed. I was grok was disappointed. It's so crazy because this freaking grok. Did I tell you at the Star?

Speaker 8:23

I don't, I can't, the the the amount that you rely on. I don't rely on AI is annoying.

Speaker 2 8:27

I don't rely on it. I can't stand it. Did I tell you at the Star Trek convention? I meant to tell you that Star Trek Convention was very embarrassing because you know how my grok randomly starts talking. Uh it's annoying. I was in the middle of asking a question to one of the actors from uh Strange News. Strange New Worlds. And as I was somebody else next to me said something. And wait, I didn't tell you this. And the Grok started talking, and everyone in the crowded hall was like, Oh, and Lori was like, Oh my god, what's happening?

Speaker 8:54

I know, because you have to turn that feature off.

Speaker 2 8:56

I don't even know how to turn it off. But Grok, I was writing. Well, the first problem you have is that you have it on your phone. Right. Well, I well, well, because I always fact-check myself in real time. But this is gonna relate back to Meta because I was actually writing a note to myself the other day about something, and then Grok was like, and I don't even know why it chastised me. It was like, remember that time you scared Lindsay and because you were in the car and you yelled at the guy.

Speaker 9:17

No, you didn't just yell at the guy.

Speaker 2 9:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, that's meta though. But but but that's why meta No, that's not what meta is. But but no, for me that's not what meta is. I know that's not what meta is, but I could have here, but what I'm saying is I meta is loving kindness.

Speaker 9:31

It is the offering of being free from suffering and being happy and being peaceful and living a life at ease to people, even the people that you don't like. Even the people that cut you off. So the people who have done you wrong and the people who have hurt you and have done terrible things to you, that meta is a practice of wishing those people well.

Speaker 2 9:54

So, right, and so that's what I'm talking about. I could have used some meta in that moment because it was a stupid thing to get.

Deep Rest Class Plug And Why It Matters

Speaker 2 10:02

Well, we are gonna meditate. Aren't I coming to your class? My workshop? Yeah. When is that?

Speaker 10:06

August 6th. Boom, I'm there. It is Thursday night, deep rest. Yeah. If anybody, if you're in the new rest. Don't bring your phone in because every time I've done deep rest with you, I could hear you click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, bing, click, click, click, bing, bing, bing, click, click, click. That's what you do during deep rest.

Speaker 2 10:21

I do a promo for you. If you are in the New York City area on August 6th, where are you where are you gonna be at on August 6th? The Self Studio. At the Self Studio. At what time? 7 30 p.m. 7 30. And what is the and what is Thursday night deep rest.

Speaker 10:33

Thursday night deep rest at the at the self studio. Oh, where's that at? In New Rochelle. Oh, what's the address? I don't know. Oh, you can just Google. I just go there. Okay. Um that's how we do everything. Yes, I actually have two weekly classes also. Wednesdays at 7 15 a.m. and Fridays at 8 15 a.m. for an hour-long uh community meditation circle.

Metta Vs Approval And People Pleasing

Speaker 2 10:51

So let me ask you a quick question. It it is it is easy to talk about loving everyone and and having unconditional positive regard for everyone, right? Um and I want you to explain this kind of I mean, I guess it's easy to talk about it. I don't really think about it often for people I don't like. So a question that I have for you is somebody who has a lot of boundaries, and but somebody who who also has to engage with all types of people who have all types of opinions that we don't always agree agree with. When you first encountered the concept of meta, was there part of you that resisted it?

Speaker 11:22

I think it's it's not so much the resistance of it, but I actually taught a meta practice this week for Clean Food Dirty Girl. And it's it's very hard for us to because it's not so much the practice of wishing other people well. Right. Um, it's the it's more of like the impact that it has on us. Right. And so you know, I think we should be able to learn to wish everyone well. The problem is that people do things that wrong us and hurt us, and we get mixed up in the feelings of it.

Speaker 2 11:55

Right. So let me ask you a question because I've I have certain people that I've worked with, both friends and and and and clients that I've worked with, who who actually say that's hokey, that's unrealistic. Um Wendy kind of talked about it in her book.

Speaker 12:09

What to wish everyone well? Yeah, like but why is that hokey? Because have are you always a good version of yourself?

unknown 12:15

Always.

Speaker 2 12:16

No, you tell me about I'm not.

Speaker 12:18

I'm not always a good version of myself, am I? I mean, you have feedback from me. Oh yeah. So very rarely. But the thing is, I don't ever not wish you well. Yeah. I think it's about seeing people through a lens of compassion and recognizing that all beings are traumatized and we've all experienced trauma or lived through trauma or difficult things. And so it's it's having an understanding that people react through their trauma. So let me ask not not to intentionally treat people poorly.

Speaker 2 12:48

So here's a follow-up question for you Did it ever feel unrealistic or even impossible to practice this toward certain people? Of course. Absolutely. Right, right, right. Yeah. You know what I what I've come to do, and I don't practice meta, but I had somebody that I worked with at uh a couple of couple of jobs where I couldn't stand the person. But what I've come to understand, and and and let me and help me if this is uh uh adjacent to meta, is I actually felt sorry instead of being angry at the people that were in charge of me that were mean or unkind or hateful, I actually felt sorry for them because I was like, what went wrong with that person that this is how they should and empathy. Is so is that meta-adjacent?

Speaker 13:33

I I mean, yes, and and the meta is actually looking at that and then taking it a step further and wishing them well. So right? It's may I be safe, may I be healthy, may I be peaceful, may I live with ease, and goes out to may you be safe, may you be healthy, may you be peaceful, may you live at ease.

Speaker 2 13:50

Okay, so I was just getting asked you. So can you def can you explain what meta is in detail, like the origins of it? I think it's like a poly poly.

Speaker 14:00

Right. Well, it's it's also a Buddhist, it's a Buddhist practice that is the intentional development of unconditional friendliness toward all beings, is what it is. So it's it's being able to look at all beings and realize that they deserve kindness. So they deserve love, they deserve to be happy, to be healthy, to live at peace, to be at ease. So imagine I'm a people pleaser. Is meta Imagine you are?

Speaker 2 14:25

I am not anymore. Oh okay. I am a f recovering. Oh, snap. That means I just remembered something I gotta do for somebody. As soon as I go back upstairs, I'll do it. Um it's I I so so for me is meta, is it people pleasing? Is it seeking approval of people? Can you can you can you define that for us? Is meta people pleasing?

Speaker 14:47

No, absolutely not. Is it people pleasing is saying yes even when you mean no? And when you say yes all the time and you do for everybody, don't take care of yourself, but do for everybody because you cannot stand to have any kind of conflict or have someone not like you. That's how I view people pleasing.

Speaker 2 15:06

So is it so I so I uh if if there's a key point that you want us to take away is meta-approval? Is it agreeing?

Speaker 15:13

Is it actually No, it's not it's not saying that, you know, just like forgiveness, it's not condoning the misdeeds of another, but it's just wishing the person well.

Speaker 2 15:22

So do I have to like someone to No, absolutely not. Okay, okay.

Speaker 15:27

So it's it's unrealistic to like everybody.

Speaker 2 15:30

Oh tell me about that.

Speaker 15:31

But it's not, you know, it's not impossible to wish well towards everybody, even if you don't like them.

Speaker 2 15:38

So it sounds like so, say Donald Trump, but like we were at the dinner the other day, and we're he's a deeply traumatized man. And our and our companions that we went to dinner with, we just said Donald Trump. Well, my man got activated, right? Even when we were talking about heaven sent and we were talking about some of her behavior, yes, he got activated with that too. Oh, he was like, that's not Christian. So, and we agreed, we agreed with what he was saying, right? But it sounds like Meta is just understanding the intent, like having the intent to show someone goodwill, even if you know that person does not have your goodwill.

Speaker 16:11

Right, absolutely. But that's also something that that you know I talk about a lot with you is just kind of being generous to people, right? Regardless, and being able to say, hey, you know what, that person must be going through something. Right. It's not letting things impact you so so strongly. Right.

Speaker 2 16:27

And I think a scientific analysis of meta is shows that loving kindness reliably increases positive emotions of joy, gratitude, hope, and personal resources like social support while reducing depressive symptoms. I want to ask you a question again, and this is the current people pleaser, because you're telling me I still like to please all the people. Is how do you explain the difference between loving kindness and seeking approval for those of those, for those of us who can't break that apart?

Speaker 16:57

Well, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, but like offering loving to kind loving kindness to someone, they don't have to be there for that, right? That's just a very independent practice.

Speaker 2 17:05

Okay, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. Sure. I have somebody that I've worked with in the past that that suffers with trying to make everyone happy and thinks that for her to be happy that she needs to make everyone happy. And instead of and and feels that if she loves someone, she has to go out and always demonstrate, do something to express that love, even to strangers. Is that meta or no?

Speaker 17:30

That's not. That's people pleasing.

Speaker 2 17:31

Okay, and so that's what I'm asking you is is explaining.

Speaker 17:34

So basically, this person compromises their authenticity for acceptance. I see.

Speaker 2 17:38

And so is meta comp and that's the question I'm asking.

Speaker 17:41

No, meta is literally an independent practice of unconditional friendliness toward all beings. That is exactly what it is. It's extended outward to loved ones, to neutral people, difficult people, and then eventually to all beings. So it's not approval, it's not agreement, it's not even liking someone, it's just an intention that all beings, not their behavior, are worthy of goodwill.

Speaker 2 18:04

Right, right. And I kind of think that all people are worthy of life. Even the worst person, I think I feel like it was um, I can't remember who a quote, but somebody who's one uh who I think it might have been Jack Canfield said, even the worst person that uh that showing an expression of goodwill is the understanding that even the worst person you know is trying to do the best they can, right? And I think that's what meta is. It doesn't mean that you change your boundary, right? Right. It doesn't mean that you accept something that's unacceptable, but that you understand, like is as even as Jesus said when he was getting ready to get put to death, because God forgive them for they know not what they do.

Speaker 18:38

Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And you know, and the thing is is that we have to realize that people are, you know, I think also a part of it comes with awareness, right? When we behave a certain way, I always talk about awareness, but it it it's not, you know, it's just that there's like a difference between loving kindness and approval. And like I said a few times now, it is really a very independent practice and it's for your own healing and your own freedom. And when I taught it this week at Clean Food Dirty Girl, that's what I said. It's about this being able to free yourself, right? Is you know, taking someone who does something like that and not being the victim of it, but saying, Wow, it's actually not mine, giving it back to them and saying, Wow, I wish them well. And, you know, and hoping, right, when you spread that out into the world, that people start to feel that energy and pick up on it and behave differently.

Anger, Trauma, And The Need To Win

Speaker 2 19:28

And I think that aligns a lot with what Scott Galloway says in his book, Notes on Being a Man, when he talks about like the road rage incident that I had the other day, is that oftentimes men think that the way I'm gonna respond to something is I'm gonna respond with unkindness, with unkindness. And Scott kind of says, as a man who's supposed to be there to protect and to love and to show the world what protection and love is, is that instead of engaging in somebody who's having a bad day, is that you should just be like, you know what, that person's having a bad day. Instead of me yelling back at them, I'm not gonna control it.

Speaker 19:58

Well, and when someone's cutting you off like that, sometimes it's just to say, Oh, I guess they really have somewhere they have to be. Right.

Speaker 2 20:03

Or if somebody says a rude word or says an unkind word to you, he's like, eh, you know what? You don't have to, you say he says you can say actually say to yourself, that person's obviously having a bad day.

Speaker 20:12

Well, and also remembering that if you don't believe those things about yourself, then you don't really hear them.

Speaker 2 20:17

But I think that's where people get stuck. And so where is it that what is it that you think that people most misunderstand about this concept of meta?

Speaker 20:25

I think it's very hard for people to wish people well when they have been wronged by them. And it really is a practice, it's something that you have to work on. People get very stuck in what their views are and what their opinions are, their anger, their judging. And so they have this entire kind of psychological and physiological response to something and they feel like they have to get even.

Speaker 2 20:47

So let's talk about that, right? I talked to a person the other day, I want to move on to our third, uh, to our third heading. Is I talked to a person the other day that I was working with um who who's in politics and said that the problem with both the progressives and the and the and the conservatives or the Democrats and the Republican is everyone has to win. That people come into office and instead of thinking about what works for everybody, is they they they get caught up in this personal dislike of the other person.

Speaker 21:15

So Right Well, that becomes this wanting to kind of get even or wanting right, and and I actually we're gonna talk about that in a different episode, but it's that you know, wanting to instead of free yourself from it, wanting to get even with the person and wanting the people person or the other person to feel the way that you do as a result of how they made you feel.

Speaker 2 21:35

Right. And I think when when the you know, there's many holy books in the I uh my uh most uh current frame of reference reference is the Bible. Frame of reference frame of reference. Frame of reference. Oh my god. That's uh brought to you by Cuca Springs uh classic Pamelo Carbonated Wine. I shouldn't have had a glass. Drinking seltzer. I shouldn't have had a glass. Grape seltzer from Wegmans. The most popular flavor, according to my best friend. According to my well, maybe we can do a commercial for Wagmans and just say, don't pay us money. Anyway, carry on. You know, but here's the thing that the Bible tells us. The Bible tells us to be very emotional, be very careful about emotions. Dr. Luck Kenogia says that you should never let other people control how you feel. And so I want people to understand as we're as we're talking about this idea of meta, is when we feel disdain, anger, or judgment towards someone, it's not just the thought, it is a full body protective response. And from a psychological perspective, aversion to aversion is the often the mind's way of trying to create distance from perceived harm. So the brain simplifies it like this this person equals danger, distance equals safety. So when we try to generate goodwill towards someone we dislike, it can definitely feel like we're put we're violating ourselves.

Speaker 22:54

I think people then equate that to, oh, then that's making it okay. Right, right. If I don't react in this way, or if I wish that person goodwill, then it means I'm a sucker or I'm allowing them to keep doing that.

Speaker 2 23:10

And and part of the what's the great breakdown in our culture today, both in politics and in everyday life, and we and it's crazy because we saw it new in in New York, right? You didn't see the the entire Knicks parade, but Jamani Wilson said that the only thing that nights unites you know you New York is either great tragedy or in this case, great joy, and that the New York Knicks have won after 53 years, right? And it was it's it's these two things, either great tragedy or great joy, that oftentimes force us to put aside our sense of rightness, right? And I think what happens in what in and this is the opposite of Meta, is our sense of rightness becomes tied into our judgment of others. Can you speak more to that?

Speaker 23:51

Right, absolutely. Well, because we become, I just said this a few minutes ago, we become in this place where people react a certain way that we have to react back, and we can't just take it and say, right? I think it was the Dhammapada that teaches in this world hatred is never appeased by hatred. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. Right. So people can do these things. We have to kind of have the shield where we don't take them on. And then we, you know, if we can kind of project love and kindness uh out into the world, then that's what we're gonna end up getting back eventually.

Speaker 2 24:22

Yeah, and I think what happens that's the hope. And I think what happens with people, especially, and I have a lot of friends who are liberal and I have a lot of friends who are conservative, but I think where they both get caught up on is this idea, I'm a good person, I would never do that, and I don't understand why they did that. Tell me why that is wrong and why that is not meta.

Speaker 24:39

Why say it again?

Speaker 2 24:41

I am a good person, I am a good person because I would never do that. So why is it wrong and why is that the opposite of meta?

Speaker 24:48

Because I'm sure you've done other things. Well, because when because that's not you know, that's not what meta is. Meta is wishing well. And so, you know, when you're saying like I'm a good person because I would never do that. Well, first of all, you're gonna do other things, nobody is perfect, right? But it's also just I mean, people are just crazy, really. Like, I am a good person because I would never do that. Okay, but that's also not what makes someone a good person. Right. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to process that for a minute. Sorry.

Speaker 2 25:17

Oh, that's okay. It's okay. It's some island time. I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to I knew that was gonna happen. We're almost done. No, no, it's good, it's good. I'm I'm gonna go back to January, right? And I'm gonna talk about and I'm gonna say this is what somebody, this is literally the thought process of somebody who's no longer in your life. They are wrong, therefore, I am in the safe position. Think about that for a second. Absorb that. They're wrong, therefore I am in the safe position. What is how does that reflect back to the person that we talk to that you're that's no longer your friend?

Speaker 25:52

Well, that's exactly what that person did, which was project everything on everyone else and not take any of the accountability. And by that, by doing that, right, they've kind of convinced themselves that they're right.

Speaker 2 26:03

Right, right. And so meta can feel destabilizing because it's it's loosening, it feels like it's loosening of the structure. But what it is, is it it's not telling you to remove discernment. Somebody can still be a piece of crap, and it's okay that they're a piece of crap, but it refuses to let you be motivated by hatred. Right. Tell us what the Dhammapada teaches.

Speaker 26:25

I think you already said that I yeah, I already said that, right? But the the the the thoughts about that and in you know, is that what that means is that hatred may feel protective, it, but it doesn't resolve anything. And it just reinforces the very suffering that it's trying to escape. So when we take things on and we risk, you know, respond to hatred with hatred, all it does is create more suffering all around.

Speaker 2 26:50

Yeah. So I I I did some research on this topic, and I know you hate when I throw in uh research, but I am gonna just do a little bit research. So neuroimaging has shown that studies, neuroimaging studies have shown that people who practice meta exhibit greater activation in brain areas like the insula and the anterior cingulate cortex, which are involved in emotional um processing empathy, and even toward negative stimuli, right? So once again, we're not telling you to, if you hate Donald Trump, hey, I would tell you not to hate him, I would tell you to continue to dislike him, but also understand that even in all his, and I'm gonna curse here, in all his assholery, he is also human too, right? Ooh, that actually hurt my heart to say that, right? But it's that's what Meta is, right? Meta is going back to what Wendy Carrera talked about when we talked about her book, My L My My Pretty Baby. It's not, it's not saying that I need to have dinner with this person, it's not saying I need to break bread with what does she say?

Speaker 27:48

Well, we don't condone the misdeeds of another, it's just that we relieve ourselves of the burden of it. Right.

Speaker 2 27:53

So, question for you why do you think we often confuse holding on to anger as a safe way to protect ourselves when it's actually the opposite?

Speaker 28:03

I think it's because it keeps that other person at arm's length, right? So when we're offended by something and we have that kind of reaction, then we keep that person, you know, away from us. And so then we assume that that's how we protect ourselves. But really, how we protect ourselves is freeing ourselves from that by having these kinds of practices and by not taking these things on in that way. And you know, and that's really where the real freedom comes from is yes, you did me wrong. I don't need an apology, but right, I wish you well and I'm not gonna take it on. Yeah.

Speaker 2 28:38

And as a as a private contractor now, one of the things I have is the freedom of not working with people that I don't want to work with, right? Um, I will never go back to corporate again because I just don't like being told what to do by people who are have not done the work on themselves. Right. I don't hate any of those people.

Speaker 28:55

Right. Well, and I think also, right, and this kind of comes back to it again, with is just kindness. Be kind to people. And there's no reason to not be kind to people. And you know, I say this a lot with my own job. There are certain people, right? Because I'm a contractor, so I work with a lot of people. There's certain people that my nervous system gets activated when the phone rings and I see it's them.

Speaker 2 29:18

Right. So I want to ask you a question really quickly, then is meta excusing people's behavior?

Speaker 29:25

No.

Speaker 2 29:26

Okay. Well, what is it then?

Speaker 29:28

Well, it's just a wish for loving kindness for everyone. And, you know, when we don't have to take on the burdens of other people. So it's not condoning the harm, it's not forgetting boundaries, it's not acting as though everything is okay. It's just saying I'm not responsible for someone else's behavior, thoughts, words, actions.

Speaker 2 29:48

Because I think one of the biggest um misunderstanding uh understandings about this idea is that it's about condoning, it's about forgetting boundaries, and it's about pretending everything.

Speaker 29:58

Yeah, and similarly, that's what people think of forgiveness as well, is that if you forgive someone, you're condoning their misdeeds. And that's not the truth. You just relieve yourself of the burden of their behavior and the impact that it's had on you.

Speaker 2 30:11

So it reminds me of the concept of in Christianity, which is called turn the other cheek, right? And sometimes people think that turn the other cheek means pacifism. Uh, but at least one of the helpful lessons that I grew up with as a Jehovah's Witness was this idea that turn the other cheek when somebody slapped you, right? Was meant just, hey, you know what? You slapped me, that was a mild offense. I'll just turn the other cheek and hey, you can slap the other one too, which is kind of what Steve and remember Steph that we met uh at at Old. Oh, yes, yes. He was like sometimes when life, you know, like throws you a curveball, hey, I just take it and say thank you, and then just hey, if you want to hit me on the other side too.

Speaker 30:48

Well, we have to look at all these things as lessons and lessons in our growth and in our development. And so when we can learn to, you know, find that space between the stimulus and the response, then we have started to really do this practice of not taking on the burdens of other people and allowing them to just have their own experience.

Boundaries Without Enabling

Speaker 2 31:08

Right. And then the clear distinction that the brother would always give is that a slap is different from a punch, right? Jesus didn't say let the, you know, let somebody punch you in the throat, punch you, and turn turn the other cheek.

Speaker 31:18

Well, I'm not really familiar with any of these biblical things you're speaking of.

Speaker 2 31:21

Yeah, but I'm just saying. But I'm just saying it's a line with meta, which is not like, hey, let somebody cross your boundary. Just in an example of you can you can say, hey, what they did was not okay, but may they be free from the harm, maybe they be free from the causes of suffering that lead to harm, right? You can Right.

Speaker 31:38

And that's exactly what this practice is. Right. Right? May I be safe, may I, may I be healthy, may I be peaceful, may I live with ease, and then projecting that out and you know, substituting the I with you. And so, right, it's not that we, you know, have ill will for people, right? But it's about like loving, I guess, kind of from a distance, right?

Speaker 2 31:59

So, two quick questions I have for you. Can you share an example? So just for somebody that doesn't understand quite yet, what it looks like to hold a strong boundary while also practicing meta.

Speaker 32:10

Well, it's basically kind of how I interact with the kids when they do things. I tell them about how like the interaction needs to go, and not in a way that tells them how to behave, but um, where I tell, for example, the Queen Mum, hey, I don't know what happened between us, but I can't recall anything. Right. But I'm not going to tolerate being spoken to that way in my house. But if you would like to talk to me about whatever's going on, then I'm open to that dialogue, right? Which is like, I'm not going to tolerate being spoken to in a certain way. There's the boundary. And, you know, I have compassion for you. I love you very much. If you want to come to me and talk, then we can talk.

Speaker 2 32:49

So how would how would a person clearly know um when they're practicing compassion versus enabling somebody's behavior?

Speaker 32:56

Well, what is enabling, right? I mean, we've got the queen enabler in your family, right? So I think there's a big difference. I also don't think I think enabling is also a little bit manipulative. I don't think that, you know, and I don't think that enabling is done with ill will either. But enabling is just allowing people to continue the same behavior and then often getting kind of frustrated by it when they do.

Speaker 2 33:21

I want to go thanks. I want to I want to jump into like the two other two other pieces of it and get your explanation on it.

Practicing Metta With Difficult People

Speaker 2 33:29

Uh one, two questions that's going to be twofold is why is it is why is meta toward difficult people feel emotionally resistant? And then the second piece of that is going to be and how can we use meta to work with difficult people?

Speaker 33:44

Well, it feels emotionally resistant because when we have an interaction with someone and they hurt us, right? We talked about that I think yesterday with the first arrow and the second arrow. And you know, the first arrow causes pain. And the second arrow is the response to that pain that we have and the beliefs that we hold on long term as a result of it. And so we when we're hurt by someone, there's always this initial place where we want to hurt back. Right. And that's where it's really hard to practice meta or to forgive someone because we are emotionally resistant to it. That person hurt us, and so naturally we want them to feel hurt as well because we want them to feel what they did to us. Right. Right. And what was the second part of it?

Speaker 2 34:34

Uh the second part is then how do we use meta to work with difficult people? Like, you know, just what you were saying, I was thinking of how I feel uh strongly about certain and I try to practice it, and I think that's where people get confused. Well, like he's a sucker. Uh, but I think about people that I really don't like that much or people who and I can think of uh one person, I can think of a lot of people, but one person in particular that I think of when this idea of meta practicing meta toward is maybe uh the president of the United States, right? Who who is a very polarizing figure. And I and you know when when we go out and I see people getting activated by talking about him, that I'm like, hey, like calm down, it doesn't really make a difference. But when I think about practicing meta toward him, it's like, ooh, you know, like, you know, it's so so how that's a tough one.

Speaker 35:19

But you have to see beyond people's trauma, right? And you have to realize that people act out of their trauma, right? It's um Gabor Mate says, as we when we're younger, we develop these strategies to keep ourselves safe in the environment that we're being raised in. And so when we develop these strategies, those become parts of our personality. And what happens as we become adults is they don't any longer serve us. But you have to have a level of awareness to recognize when something doesn't serve you anymore. And then there's a lot of work to shift and change and actually live truly and authentically. And so, you know, someone like that who is so self-serving and wrapped up in their own stuff all the time, you know, it's hard for them to see any other way. And so, you know, with those situations, we have to learn to look beyond what's happening on the surface and realize that, you know, all of those behaviors are as a result of a wound, yeah, right, that's kind of open and unhealed.

Speaker 2 36:16

Yeah. I wasn't really familiar with this topic until you brought it up. So even in my own research, um, on this particular piece where it was like I I've I've looked up, well, how can I use meta to work with a difficult person? And what I came across was what one person suggested, well, bring to mind someone who's neutral first, right?

Speaker 36:31

Somebody who you don't feel right, someone you don't feel that way for. We do that. I taught a meta practice just recently, and it was very much that. And then the last part of it is extending it out to someone that you really, you know, have maybe feelings, negative feelings about.

Speaker 2 36:49

Yeah, and instead of forcing the warrant, you you just start small where it's like, well, may that person be free from suffering, uh, may they be free from harm, and may they eventually become aware of how their behavior is impacting other people.

Speaker 37:01

Right. And if you look around in the world, there's a lot of unawareness and there's a lot of unhappiness. And so if we meet all of that anger with more anger, it's just you know, exacerbating the problems. Right. Right. I talk about that time I was driving on the Pelham Parkway to go to work and at the intersection, someone had a fender bender and the guy got out and just started throwing punches.

Speaker 2 37:21

Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 37:22

And, you know, everyone's just sitting in their cars, like, what's gonna happen next? Right. Because it's also, you know, I think I've told you, like, I've seen people cross the street with guns and, you know, in their hand or in their pocket, and you know, there's so much violence and so much hatred in this world that if every one of us could practice a little bit more kindness and compassion, it would go a long way.

Speaker 2 37:43

Yeah, even if thinking of my own experience of a couple of people when I worked in corporate, and I'll never work in corporate again, uh that I just couldn't stand, right? But I remember like there was one gentleman in particular that nobody liked. And whenever anybody would talk about him, I'd be like, hey, you know what? He probably, you know, had a lot of problems growing up. He's a l he was a little guy, shorter guy. And I was like, hey, you know what? He's probably, you know, think about if think about if if if he gets teased now, even in this position of power, people talk about him behind his back, then imagine what it was like for him growing up, right? A five foot like one little guy. And it's like, you know, maybe the way he acts now is the world hurt him. And so now he's lit her learning to hurt the world in return. And maybe we should just offer him kindness.

Speaker 38:29

Well, I always say that. I told you that I have a colleague that people, you know, I get along with her fine. And but a lot of people have a lot of struggle with her and strife. And I said to you, I think I told you this once, but I said, you know, growing up, she must have had this, you know, not being seen perception, not being seen, not being heard, and not being enough. And sure enough, a few weeks ago I had dinner with her and she confided in me some very personal information about her life, and she even teared up. And, you know, and I said, like all of this, this toughness is an exterior. It's it's it's the this is what keeps me safe in the world.

Speaker 2 39:04

Right, right. Um I I I I totally agree with that. And like I said, it's even even I guess I was practicing meta in a way without even realizing I was practicing it, because even some of the worst folks that I've worked with, I've always tried to see uh the human part of them, even when it's even when it's difficult.

Speaker 39:20

Well, we do, and it's like people call it the devil's advocate, right? You try to see the good in everyone, and and it's hard. And we were talking about that in our meditation class last week. And one of the things that, you know, my my mentor said to me when I said, My struggle has always been balance, and I feel I can't find balance and I do this, you know, repeat this pattern over and over again. And she said, you know, but that's the practice for you is you recognize the pattern. Right. And so when you recognize it, that's the pattern, that's where the healing in the work happens. And she said, you know, I, you know, I still get annoyed with my wife, but I recognize that I get annoyed, and that's the practice, is that the those moments of awareness that we have, that is our practice. Right.

Speaker 2 40:03

One of the research points that I've I came across um when going over this topic is that uh brief meta training, which is as little as seven minutes, can enhance positive mood and social connectedness. And then longer practices, uh, seven weeks plus, builds broader resources and reduces aggression while increasing uh pro-social behavior. Um two quick one quick question for you, because then we we did we need to move on. Is how do you work with the resistance when the phrases or the or the feelings that you're trying to manifest feel inauthentic when you're first trying to practice meta?

Speaker 40:41

Well, you you practice it anyway. And you, like I was just saying a few minutes ago, you recognize what's coming up for you. Right. And you know, it does you don't have to do the whole practice, right? You can just start with yourself.

Speaker 1 40:54

Right.

Speaker 40:54

You can literally just start with yourself and start where it's easy.

Speaker 2 40:58

Yeah. Now, moving

Self-Metta For Self-Criticism And Shame

Speaker 2 41:00

on, one of the biggest things that I've found uh working with folks is oftentimes people are their own worst enemies. People hate themselves, people beat themselves, people are very abusive to themselves, people have horrible thoughts about themselves. So, how can we apply this principle, meta, uh, for ourselves first?

Speaker 41:18

Well, it's well, you know, that's that you and I talk about this all the time. When it comes to mental health, you have to have a level of understanding, right, of deeper things, of your trauma, of emotions, of how you perceive things. And it can be very hard for people to practice for themselves. But, you know, for me, I've been practicing meditation, breath work, yoga for so many years now. I didn't love myself when I started it. But the key is to keep coming back. And even when I taught this week, for example, one of the women said to me, you know, wow, I I always thought like meditation was like this snoozy, snoozy thing. And she's like, I actually want to go back and listen to the recording of that again and again because she said I had such a moment with it. It's really about getting acquainted with yourself. And I always say when I go to meditate, it's like I'm going home to visit myself. And so it's just getting to know yourself and even these parts of yourself that you're judging, allow them to be there, recognize them because they came from somewhere, right? We don't just wake up one day and we hate ourselves. There's been a series of events that occur in our lives that cause us to have low self-esteem or low self-worth or to allow people to walk all over us and to not have boundaries.

Speaker 2 42:39

Right. When I was uh in corporate, I used to often joke, and I didn't realize I actually understood this concept even before mental health, but mental health has made me uh understand it qu much better. I used to often joke, like when we have a couple of miserable people that we worked with, and I would be like, you know what, I'm sure that person hates themselves as much as they hate all of us, right?

Speaker 42:59

Well, if you feel good about yourself, you typically don't want to make other people feel bad. And you know, and that's that's the thing, and that's what I think about people as well when I see them, and it also takes so much energy to act like that, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 43:18

Yeah, I I agree, I agree. I I think it's worth remembering that the difficulty that we have towards others is often amplified by the difficulty that we have toward ourselves, and if internally we're harsh, like you're saying, toward ourselves, then judgment becomes our default language, right? And so it's important if you want to practice matter or if you want to even do a light practice of it, you got to start with yourself.

Speaker 43:40

Absolutely. And and we talked about this too, is it's you know, when you don't when you feel when you don't feel good because of something someone did to you, you want to react on it. If you don't feel good about yourself, you also want to react on it, right? Think about abusive relationships. Do you think the abuser feels good about themselves? No way. Right. So it's it's this matter of like recognizing things in yourself and allowing them to just be there and see what comes up. And that's a practice I have. And I think I've told you is that if you say something to me and it strikes in a certain way, sometimes I just sit there with it and I'm like, hmm, maybe it's true. Yeah.

Speaker 2 44:18

And I and I believe that, you know, extending self-c compassion is a prerequisite for c extending uh compassion to others. Because if you can't extend basic goodwill inward, then how are you gonna express it outward?

Speaker 44:31

Well, I think sometimes people need to, you know, like need to feel love in order to learn how to love. And so in this way as as well, maybe if people, right, on the opposite of what you're saying, if people extend compassion to you, then you can open your eyes to that and become aware, and you can extend a little bit more compassion. So I don't necessarily know that it's a prerequisite, but I do think there has to be that level of awareness.

Speaker 2 44:59

Okay, great, great. I I agree with you on that. Okay, so beginning to wrap this up, two

Daily Practice Tips And Closing Reflections

Speaker 2 45:04

questions. How do we bring meta into our daily life? And then can you give us maybe a closing reflection?

Speaker 45:11

Right. So, well, first I think it's just recognizing that there is that space between the stimulus and the response and just getting comfortable with that. When something happens, just sit and feel. Sit and feel. And a good practice is you don't even have to wait until anything happens. You can just take a period of five minutes a day to sit. Right. Tara Brock says if if if sitting is so uncomfortable and unpleasant for you while you boil the kettle in the morning or while you make your cup of coffee, let that just be your practice to sit. Right. Sometimes two minutes is all people can really handle. So, you know, and and and you know, as in in closing, right? Meta is not, it's not tested when life is easy. It's the test is when, you know, we feel justified in withholding the kindness and the compassion. So the practice is not asking us to ignore, you know, pain and harm or approve of it. It's asking something quieter. It's asking us to just sit with it, to reflect on it. Can we connect more with ourselves so that when we're confronted with these things, we can learn to increase our tolerance to them.

Speaker 2 46:16

Right. And in uh and in closing for me, I just want to go back um and and touch on two things that I that you made me think of when you were uh uh talking about like meta and and daily practices. Um John C. Maxwell in his book Relationships 101 talks about this idea of active listening and and and as I before you react to something, take a minute, pause, right? Um and I think that goes back to what you were saying. So when something triggers you, you can you can just pause and say, uh, you know what? Before I react, am I acting out of reacting out of hatred, right? It's okay to react out of hey, you hey, you crossed my boundary, but if react out of sheer hatred or if you feel something rise in you, then maybe you need to pause before you react, right? I'm gonna go back to that that crazy, stupid thing that I did in in Pennsylvania when I felt that bile come up in my stomach, which in in many other cases I'll feel that bile come up, and Scott Galloway kind of talks about it in this book, Notes on Being a Man, that the right thing to do is like, you know what, don't want to contribute to that person's bad day. You know, that person is obviously having a bad day and they're acting out and they're acting out inappropriately. I realize that, but let me not add to it, let me walk away.

Speaker 47:22

Right? Well, right, and then that just caused more conflict between the two of us because you know the behavior really was very frightening for me.

Speaker 2 47:29

Right. So and then and then another question that you can have is sometimes we get this idea when somebody's a jerk to us, like, oh, I gotta teach them, or I gotta fix that person, or I gotta, you know, show them something.

Speaker 47:40

Believe me, one one one negative interaction is not going to fix someone. Right. Or show them anything. Right. It's just going to add, like you say, right, fuel to the fire.

Speaker 2 47:49

Right. And so the question that you can say is ask yourself is how do I stay grounded uh while staying clear, right? Or staying clear of the situation. Great self-defense expert uh that I listened to once said, hey, the best way to stay out of uh stay out of a fight is not get into a fight. And when somebody it when somebody's having a bad day, let them have that bad day and and keep it moving. Um I think this has been a really important discussion, especially in the times that we live in right now. This this is uh, yeah, a lot of people don't like each other. Um and I think it's just the I think it's just the most important thing discussing this idea of meta is having those boundaries, but learning also not to lose ourselves in in either an anger or frustration or even in trying to save other people. But just always approach people with love and kindness, um, even if you don't get it in return. That is right. Okay, that's it. That's it for me.

Speaker 48:46

And that's it for me.

Speaker 2 48:47

Okay, so this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay, and we'll see you next time.