The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
The Devil You Don’t Know is a candid mental-health and culture podcast hosted by married counselors Lindsay and Cleveland Oakes. Through humor, personal stories, honest disagreements, and practical psychology, they uncover the hidden patterns affecting our relationships, identities, families, and emotional lives. From mindfulness and healing to marriage, society, and the everyday messiness of being human, Lindsay and Cleveland explore what it takes to recognize our patterns—and choose something different.
The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
Everyday Generosity
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The fastest way to change your day might be smaller than you think. We’re talking about the smallest moments of generosity: letting someone merge, softening your tone, giving a real compliment, or choosing a kinder story about why someone didn’t call back. Those tiny decisions don’t just help other people, they reshape our stress, our mood, and the kind of life we feel like we’re living.
We reflect on how generosity shows up as a mindset, especially when we’re tired, rushed, or irritated. From “New York driving” to everyday conversations, we explore what happens when we meet people with curiosity instead of certainty, and how “generosity of thought” can stop us from building resentment on assumptions. We also talk about receiving as its own form of generosity and why keeping score kills connection.
We get practical with right speech and generous listening: pausing before we react, asking whether something needs to be said, and learning to be present without fixing. Lindsay shares a story from her clinical work that captures what real generosity looks like in a high-stress moment, and we close with what gets in the way most often: overwhelm, self-criticism, and forgetting that boundaries can coexist with kindness.
If you got something from this, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s one small act of generosity you’ll practice today?
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Vacation Stories And Beach Grudges
SPEAKER_00This is Cleveland.
SPEAKER_01And this is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_00And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
SPEAKER_04The smallest moments of generosity.
SPEAKER_00But first, uh, let's catch folks up on, you know, briefly, quickly, on what's been going on with us for the last whatnot going on, what not. I want to say three weeks. Three weeks?
SPEAKER_04Yes. I'm very sleepy today. I swam in the sea all day.
SPEAKER_01Wow, hard stuff. I know. Real difficult play. Difficult. Difficult. At least it's not like Emmett.
SPEAKER_03Oh. Yeah. That's one thing I've noticed here. Emmett and the little girl with her beach hat. Yeah, yeah. The kids' little problems. Kids' big problems.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Emmett had a big bad beach there. I'm like, bro, I'm watching them. So we were at this uh beautiful um little inlet, I want to call it, uh, Brewer's Bay the other day, which is Tortoll's.
SPEAKER_03Oh, what a gorgeous beach that is. I think we're gonna go there tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Tortoll's a beautiful island. And um it's it's usually not one that's populated by the tourists, but there is this family, I want to say they're good Christian folk from the Midwest. And uh one of them, uh the the Huckleberry.
SPEAKER_04Why would you assume that they're Christian folk if they're from the Midwest? And how did you know where they're from? You asked?
SPEAKER_00I I Lynn, it's me.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you generalize.
SPEAKER_00I generalize and I make up stories.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Okay. Carry on.
SPEAKER_00So in my fiction, well, I don't know how many uh non-Christian people are named Emmett, but you know, maybe. Uh anyway.
SPEAKER_04Did you ever see Emmett Otter's jug band Christmas?
SPEAKER_00I have not.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I love that Christmas movie.
SPEAKER_00Now I gotta add it to my list along with Die Hard and Jingle All the Way. But anyway, is it before you're tired?
SPEAKER_04Anyway, carry on.
SPEAKER_00So he was just it was just an amazing day. And I guess he had done something to get himself in in a little bit of trouble.
SPEAKER_04Yes, we were swimming in the sea and he threw rocks near us. Oh, is that what happened? Yes. Were we the cause? Well, we weren't the cause. I I mean the rock didn't even come anywhere near us. We were way out swimming in the sea. And he swam too far from his parents first, and they called him back. And then he got out and he was walking along the shore towards where they were sitting, and he started picking up rocks and throwing them in the ocean. And his mother called him over. Get over here, get over here.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, I feel bad. But you know what?
SPEAKER_03You know, it was just such a rocks weren't even near us.
SPEAKER_00It was like little. And it was such a beautiful day. And he he caught he caught such an attitude, and even later on, you know, when dad uh called him over, he still was like he covered his face, he wouldn't go in the sea. It was just very funny. He was just sulky, and it kind of made me think how many people actually have a big, bad beach day when life around them isn't beautiful and they want to, you know, kvetch about that.
SPEAKER_04It's funny how kids react to things, right? It's like they can't let go of it, they need to hold the grudge. Like the little girl with her beach hat, she had such a tantrum because she just didn't want to wear her beach hat. Yeah. And I thought, wow, she's gonna allow this to ruin her day. And she's just, no beach hat, no beach hat. And I just, you know, I remember the kids. And even now, right? I mean, Huckleberry Tim still holds the grudge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And so we we sometimes we get in the way of our own beauty. But that's a that's a topic for another day, or at least considering.
SPEAKER_04Yes, but it it's been a really great vacation, and I really uh tried to get you extend one more week because that's all customs would allow, but you said no. We have to go home.
SPEAKER_00Wait, have we really gone up against the the limit of how long you can stay? I think yeah, you said 30 days. 30 days, you gotta leave. Yep, and then come back. Come back. You gotta go to that's right, you gotta go to St. Thomas for one day and then they'll re-stamp you and you can re-up for another 30 days. Woo! Right. I didn't I didn't know we were pushing right up against it. Anyway, this has been at least for me, because you know I didn't actually even want to go on vacation, um, and I was being a big baby about it for a a couple of I just ignore that. Yeah, but I I want to say I was being generous, and I'm glad that I was being generous because I'll because I'm trying to segue into our topic. Sure. The smallest moments of generosity. So
What Small Generosity Really Means
SPEAKER_00today we're talking about something that seems simple on the surface, but has the power to transform the way we experience our lives, and that's generosity. And general Linz, what kind of generosity am I talking about here?
SPEAKER_04You're not talking about grand gestures, but just generosity in the way that we think, speak, and move through ordinary moments in life.
SPEAKER_00Because if we're honest, most of our lives aren't lived in extraordinary moments. I know I have a lot of ordinary moments. They're lived in conversations with loved ones. They're waiting in line at a grocery store, they're driving through traffic, responding to an email, or making a quick judgment about someone we've never met. I'm really good at that, by the way. Um, but you know, I think part of why you love Tortola so much is that spirit of generosity that is very alive here. Very alive here. You know, we met that fella, you know, uh he wasn't from the Midwest, but we met that fella, Ryan and his family, and we had a great conversation in the in the ocean. And it was like, you know, had and he here and he brought us drinks. He picked up our drinks.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00Right?
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, and even just Elvet downstairs, right? When you go and ask him something, he will stop and have a whole conversation unless he's in a cutthroat game of dominoes. You know, in which time he tells you that he will see you later after he wins.
SPEAKER_01I want to call high stakes. High stakes. High stakes dominoes.
SPEAKER_04It happens but even today he he gets so excited to see us. Yeah. And and like you said, he's never he never wears shoes. I've never seen him wear shoes. And that that I actually aspire to live a life and live in a place where I never need to wear shoes.
SPEAKER_00But how calm and balanced does he look, right?
SPEAKER_04He is so happy. And he lives a very simple life.
SPEAKER_00So here's a question for you. Because we see it out here every day when you see folks hitchhiking, when you see neighbors taking care of neighbors here. What if generosity wasn't something we occasionally practiced, but something that we aspired to every day? What if what what if it became the lens and through we experienced everyday life?
SPEAKER_04I try to do that. I try to let people in when I'm driving for work. I try to say hello to people, I smile at people, I compliment people. That's something I learned in my meditation training is that we can have this generosity and this gratitude in these small moments. And it really it it just changes the the whole energy around you.
SPEAKER_00And you've corrected me a couple of times here with the impolite driving. I get it now, where you know I'm doing my New York style driving in But what if you practiced generosity when you were driving in New York? Yeah, yeah. I I think you gave me a lot to think about just in that in that moment. And and here's the thing is you know, I'm the research guys. What's fascinating is that research continues to show that even small acts of generosity don't just help the people around us, but they change us and they reduce stress, they strengthen our relationships, and even activate the brain's reward centers, reminding us that giving often feels just as meaningful as receiving.
SPEAKER_04Well, I think it's Ram Das who says that receiving from someone else is a gift. Right. And we don't always right, and so when someone gives us something or does something for us, he says, I can't remember the exact language, I'll have to look at it. It's in his book, Polishing the Mirror. But he says, when someone gives something, the gift you give back to them is receiving the gift. Right. There doesn't have to be like an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. It's, you know, because someone gave you something, you don't have to go and give them something back, right? What you give them back is that acceptance of the gift.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And and and it brings me back to even uh what occurred last week um with the person that we were dealing with that got super activated about something they didn't even have to get activated about. Um, is what if they would have just come at that? We even if they thought they were right, right? What if they would have come at that with a spirit of generosity? Hey, let me share some information with you that I don't think you know, right? Right. That could have been a completely different way to handle that.
SPEAKER_04Well, right. And and we talked about that, and I think that's um, yeah, it's a very interesting thing. But we don't have to get so activated. We can deliver the message kindly, and I think that's also a part of what generosity really is not having those moments of exploding, but having these moments of just stepping back, recognizing something's coming up, and then delivering the message in a different way.
SPEAKER_00I was I was watching X-Men 97 today, and it was a quote from a villain. Where were you watching that? On the beach.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00And when I had my headphones on, he asked me what I was doing. I was enjoying some X-Men 97.
SPEAKER_03Oh, very nice.
SPEAKER_00And there's a line that a villain says when he's getting ready to actually step on someone, and he was like, you know what? It is not a brave man who steps on an ant and chooses to like walk away and let that person live, right? And and so what is generosity really? It is when you when you I think for most people when they think about the the word generosity, and thank you for that segue because it helps us move into this segment. I think people think about immediately giving money, giving gifts, giving our time. But for me, I wonder if generosity begins earlier than that, right? And it goes back to even though Apocalypse was his villain, he was generous in that moment and said it is not a brave man who will step on an ant and keep his head up high. Right. So, so what if generosity is your attitude toward life?
SPEAKER_04Right. It's like a willingness to accept things and be open to things instead of shutting down and having to prove a point or be right.
Curiosity Over Certainty In Conflict
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I I I think uh in as we were talking to uh to uh so many wonderful people out here, as we were talking to to Scott, Scott and Debbie the other day, who's the Texas cattle rancher, and and he was surprised how much in common we had, you know, being you know, from a blue city in New York, he was like, All of us in Texas think that you guys are crazy and that you and that you're unwilling to listen. And I was like, you know what they say on our side? The same thing. And I think generosity is just a willingness to stay open-minded, even when it's something that you absolutely do not agree with, but staying open-minded or staying open instead of closing down.
SPEAKER_04Right. And and it's allowing people to have their opinion. We don't always have to agree or align with someone else, we just have to respect their view, right? And so we can be patient, we can be curious, right? We can we can give our attention to those things, yeah. Even if we don't always want to.
SPEAKER_00And and I want to think about that idea of meeting people with curiosity instead of certainty. What is for me that means that because I I'm I'm telling you, I I think one of the biggest problems that people have is they automatically judge and make up fictions and stories about other people. Now I'm aware that I do that, but I accept one of the things that I I I that I notice about myself, yes, I do like to think of uh stories or ideas about people in my head, but then I'm curious enough and I will ask them questions. And I think of certain friends of mine uh with this idea that they approach things with certainty instead of curiosity. And I think what what what Scott was alluding to is that everybody's so sure of not only their opinion but what they think the other person is gonna say that they're not even curious to get to know.
SPEAKER_04Well, we we pass judgment very quickly, right? And we think about stereotypes or the the programming that's been fed to us.
SPEAKER_00Right, right, right. And I think about all the ways that we can be generous um is practicing patience instead of frustration. Uh to give someone around when our attention, like putting the phone down, what you'll always remind me of, and and I frequently try to leave it in the car these days, but give someone our full attention when it's easier to say stay distracted. And in this sense, generosity isn't something we occasionally do, right? Um, I think sometimes generosity is listening just without giving a response.
SPEAKER_04Right, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Right? I think for me, I think one of the biggest generosities that we can give is allowing someone to have a different opinion instead of convincing them that they're wrong. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_04Well, we don't ever have to convince someone that they're wrong. We talked about this, I think, last week when we recorded about the story that Jack Cornfield told about um the guru, right? Is that if someone has an opinion, why do we need to tell them it is right or wrong?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And and and and look at the karmic energy. So that person that was so adamant that they were right last week. What what what ended up what you know?
SPEAKER_04It's not well, that's terrible. Something really bad happened to her. She actually went to work and she got bit by a dog and has to have 10 days of antibiotics. They had to make sure she had an updated tetanus shot. You know, karma works in funny ways.
SPEAKER_00She probably was telling the dog what to do. The dog got tired of it. Um, I don't know how to bite. Ah, gotcha. You know, and I'm not saying that that person got that on purpose, but it's it, there's a little bit of karma in there. Linz, I want to ask you, there are many spiritual traditions that remind us that generosity isn't just about losing something, it's about recognizing that there's enough kindness and compassion uh and presence to share. Um, you spent so much time helping people through your counseling and and through service. How has your understanding of generosity changed over the years?
SPEAKER_04Right. So for me, this is something I've been thinking about more recently, maybe just because it was a big topic in our um in my training, but for me, it has become more about just recognizing little things and not not talking about people, not passing judgment, not not, you know, having opinions about everything. And I think that I there was a time in my life where I thought generosity was giving and giving and giving. And now it has actually for me shifted into these smaller moments of when I'm driving for work and there's tons of traffic in the morning, which happens often. I stop and I let someone in. I let someone get a lane change. I let somebody go in front of me somewhere in the grocery store, for example, if they have two items. I say hello to people, I compliment people on things. Um, and so for me, it has become more about just little moments throughout the day rather than these big moments.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um, that brings us to our next topic, which is generosity in our words and in our thoughts. And it goes back to storytelling. You know, we meet somebody, we come across a situation, and even though many times we're right, there are also many times that we're wrong, right? Um, and so I once again don't think generosity actually just only begins with our actions. I think it starts with our minds. And you can think of all the stories that we've that you tell yourself, you know, like you just brought up getting cut off in traffic, or something like that.
SPEAKER_04Well, no, I let people go in in traffic. When people cut me off, I just actually say, maybe they have somewhere really important to be. Maybe something happened to them.
SPEAKER_00Or people start making up a story in their head, why why didn't this person return my text? Um or someone seems impatient. I actually had a uh an incident like that where uh a good friend of mine that I used to work at in my corporate gig um had a something bad happen to her at work and was let go, and she felt it was unfair, and it kind, you know, as as somebody who had been there for a long time and she was embarrassed and felt a type of way about it because she was uh she was was a high-ranking executive at the time. And then somebody that was a good friend of hers in the mailroom, you know, just stopped returning her calls. And she assumed that it was that she was like, Oh my god, how dare this person who I was generous and kind to and all these other things stop returning my calls? And I had I was like, Hey, you know what? Um you don't know this, but he, you know, left in a very bad and very embarrassing way, and I'm sure that he would love to hear from you. And she was stunned. And she actually reached out to him and he did hear from her. And I told her, I was like, I said, one of the things I learned in grad school is sometimes, you know, we make up stories in our head that somebody shunned us or or left us behind, and we don't even have generosity of thought to think that they're going through something too.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, that's often because we are very like self-centered. Right. We make everything about us. And so when something happens, we automatically make a perception, which I've talked about many, many, many times with everybody. But we make a perception about it and we choose a bad one.
SPEAKER_00Right. So most of the time we don't even know the whole story, and that's what I had to tell her. It was like, he's not calling you because he he's he's you know, like he thinks, you know, like, you know, uh that he doesn't trust your cherish your friendship, or that, you know, he he abandoned you too after all the years that you helped him out. He had a bad situation that I'm sure he's embarrassed about.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, and because the thing is, is you know, you don't know what other people have said. Right. So sometimes it's better to just avoid what does Tarbrock teach people? I that's well, the suffering grows when we believe every thought that our mind produces, right? And so the problem is, is and this is something that I I work I'm working on a lot uh with because you know I have a lot of classes now. All of a sudden I've many, many meditation classes. Blowing up. So we are constantly thinking. Matt, you know, Jack Cornfield calls it the monkey mind. We're constantly producing thoughts and we're constantly listening to them, right? And we don't really, we and then we sit there and we believe all these stories rather than giving it space to actually think about it in a different way.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Right? Or to just let go of it and let things be.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00There's
Right Speech And Generous Listening
SPEAKER_00an idea in Buddhism. I I think you've talked to me about it before. It's called right speech. What is that?
SPEAKER_04Oh, I don't know. I've never talked to you about that, but I would imagine that You haven't. It's what?
SPEAKER_00Well, wait a minute. No, I've never. Well, could wait wait wait a minute. Maybe you have and you don't realize it. Because before speaking, I think right speech has this idea is it true? Is it kind? Is it helpful?
SPEAKER_04Well, I always say to you, does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? And does it need to be said right now?
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay. So I'm gonna go back.
SPEAKER_04You know, it would align with that. I don't ever call it right speech, but that's I was actually going to go ahead and say, you know, what you were saying. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it that but that is what right speech is. It's this, it's this teaching that is before speaking, is what I'm saying. And I think is another thing that you like to say is it is is my is my is what I'm going to add.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, just like don't say anything, right? Dharma Mitra says you should only speak if what you have to say is of greater value than the silence.
SPEAKER_00And and I think in our modern culture, especially on both sides, but I find that my liberal friends are very guilty of this, that instead of trying to have conversation, um you know, instead of asking another question, they they're trying to make another point. Right. And when you think about gurus, like when KD talks about gurus and even like people like Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ acts what we call in counseling. I think he act he did like Socratic questioning, right? Or motivational interviewing, which is he didn't tell you what to do, he helped you through a series of questions come to the conclusion for yourself, right? Right? Jesus was not a fire and in and in and brimstone preacher, he was a counselor. And I think, you know, if we th if we came to our conversations with each other once again with curiosity and generosity, it wouldn't be important if you got my point or not.
SPEAKER_04Right. And and we don't always have to say things out loud. Not every thought that we have needs to be verbalized.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. You know, I think all of us have had some kind of conversation at least once in our life with somebody who made us fully seen. And it's not because they solved the problem, and it's not because, you know, they, you know, like they had a quippy or something, you know, funny or wise to say, it's because they were fully present.
SPEAKER_04Right. Who who is it that says we only listen so that we know when it's our next turn to speak?
SPEAKER_00Uh Benjamin Franklin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right. Something like that.
SPEAKER_00I might not have gotten it. No, you got it close. It's good. So, but that's what it reminded me of. Right. It's not actively listening. So, Linz, I got a question for you. You've had countless conversations with people during some of the hardest moments of their lives. What have those experiences taught you about the the power of generous listening and generous speech?
SPEAKER_04Well, I don't I'm I try to be, I try to practice what I preach, which is that moment between the stimulus, right, and the response. I try to take that moment of silence. And I sit, so I like to also help my clients learn to sit and not say anything, because a lot is learned in those moments, right? When we have difficult moments and we hear people say things and we listen, and and it can be about anything, but it brings something up in us, right? Sometimes, and sometimes, right, the biggest one is judgment or oh, I wouldn't have done that, right? And us kind of sitting here and trying to rework the situation. But the the the the real work happens when we actually just sit with what comes up for us, and so that's What I try to practice. And I do I'm not always good at it. Sometimes, you know, I'm triggered by the best at everything. Oh, that's very sweet. Thank you. Um, but I try to take those moments as teaching moments, but also learning moments for myself. Of, you know, we're, you know, that, and and and I think for my clients, they feel heard, right? They they perceive that they're heard, they perceive that they're seen. And I don't, and I don't judge them. A lot of times I'll validate what comes up for them.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna move on to our next segment, which is generosity even in in small
Tiny Daily Habits Of Kindness
SPEAKER_00moments. And so, Linz, I'll I'll throw this at you because this was the topic that you wanted to come up with. Um, what are some small moments that we can do daily to to to practice generosity?
SPEAKER_04Well, one thing I think I've said to you when I heard you make a comment about somebody was I had said to you, you know, be generous. Don't say anything, right? It's not nice to talk about people. How about that guy to judge them?
SPEAKER_00How about that guy in the orange suit though?
SPEAKER_04Did you judge him?
SPEAKER_00No, I but that was vibrant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't know what that was. It was like an orange Hawaiian shirt with orange pants and orange sneakers. Yeah, he was good. And an orange hat. He was very happy though. Yeah. He was enjoying his walk on the beach. He had his camera, he was taking pictures. But for me, the the way that I have this show up in my daily life is I'd have already said it several times. When I'm driving, I let people come in. I wave, I say hello. I will do little things for people if I can. I take the time to compliment them, to tell them how cute their children are, to spend a little more time with someone than I would. Um, and I try to like, I try to be present. That's the biggest part of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think one of the notes that I jotted down to myself that it's offering a smile to a stranger with no expectation to get anything back, not even a smile.
SPEAKER_04And but that's how we should operate.
SPEAKER_00And it reminds me a little bit of what Scott Galloway talks about, notes on being a man, about real fathers coming and understand that you may never be appreciated for being a good dad, right? But that we don't do this because you know that good fathers are don't do this because they want praise. You'll probably never get the praise that you deserve. But you do it because it's the right thing to do. Right.
SPEAKER_02So sorry, I was yawning. Oh no, we're almost there. We're almost at the finish line, right? There's a lot of swimming in the sea. Yeah. A lot.
SPEAKER_00And and I and I think the important thing is to ask yourself, and I've worked with clients, especially people pleasers, is why are you doing like once again? I I we want you to understand it's good to be generous, but be genuinely generous, right? Don't do it because you think it's you're gonna get something back for it.
SPEAKER_04Do it because you want the person to just be on the receiving end of it.
SPEAKER_00So, Linz, is before we move on to our next topic, when you think about your own life, is there a recent moment or something small and ordinary where either giving or receiving a simple act of generosity stayed with you longer than you expected?
SPEAKER_04Well, I I well, I recently evaluated a little girl for work and I diagnosed her with autism. And you know, the mom was beside herself, and I had already seen her for her developmental testing, but then I was sent back to do the autism testing. And all this mother is beside herself. The child has a lot of emotional dysregulation, and the family is, you know, I'm I don't I don't know this, but I would believe that they're not documented because the mother is very, very afraid that the daughter has such emotional dysregulation that she's afraid the neighbors are gonna call the police on her. The child doesn't sleep, she's screaming all the time, she's banging her head, she's kicking. And the little girl loved my toy. And I knew that if I took this toy, that this poor mother was gonna have one of the worst nights of her life. And so I just left the toy and ordered a new one. And the mother sent me a video, you know, later that evening showing me that the daughter was still playing with the toy and how happy the daughter was. And then a few days later, this little girl was still playing with this toy. And, you know, and I think about them all the time because I think this mother so desperately wants help for her child that she'll do whatever it takes. And I think that she was just so grateful in that moment. And that was all I wanted was for her to have like a nice evening, right? And not have a screaming child because the child has a real difficult time with her, and you know, with the calming down and soothing and and things like that. And so I I just left the toy for her. And, you know, she's had now had weeks of fun with it.
SPEAKER_00And it goes back to even what what I said, what talks what research talks about is that people who who who give are and give for a good reason, not because they want praise, not because you know, you wanted that mother to to come back at you and be like, oh, you're awesome and amazing, just because you want to do something nice that it was stress-free. Now, great story and all, but I thought you were gonna talk about the price of the Tiffany necklace. What a surprise. Um you're funny. I I I loved I loved when you were thinking, you're like, Cleve, we should get one for mom. And then you were like, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02How much did you pay for that? How much did you pay for that thing?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But no, no, no, no. I think that was wonderful. I think that was a wonderful, that was a wonderful story. And thank you. Thank you for thank you for sharing that. Um, let's move on to let's move on to our final, to our final segments on this. Is
Stress Boundaries And Self Generosity
SPEAKER_00what what gets in the way of generosity, do you think, sometimes? If being generous is so natural, why does it feel so difficult sometimes, do you think, Linz?
SPEAKER_04Ourselves, life, things that are happening, right? We have somewhere to be, we're overwhelmed, somebody upset us, things didn't go the way that we planned at home in the morning, we're stressed out from work, maybe we're late, we're tired. And so then we start to make things about ourselves. Right. And we don't worry so much about maybe being kind to others.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I think it goes back to the idea of, you know, being more. I always tell people that the secret of of mental health counseling is is being mindful. Um, and I think it goes back to just uh to approaching these things strategically, which is, you know, which is just like just thinking about it from the other from the other person's point of view, or thinking about how I can react differently. I think um, I know one of your mentors says, always deliver the message kindly. And I know Terence Real always says, be be kind, but be firm. And some of the questions that you can ask yourselves before you have a sharp reaction is can I soften my tone here? Uh can I take one more breath before I act? Can I remember that the person in front of me may be carrying a burden that I don't even am aware of?
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, and I think the other part of that is that we so often don't take into account the other person. And we see this a lot with couples when couples argue. We're not when we react to something our partner says or they react to something that we say, we're not looking at it from where they came from. We're looking at it from where we came from.
SPEAKER_05Right, right.
SPEAKER_04Right, and from our own personal experience. And so we often don't take that pause because we're emotional people, so we often react emotionally.
SPEAKER_00It goes back to um, you know, something that I had skipped over earlier, but I want to just retouch on it now is presence, returning, and the practice of kindness, right? And so it seems like part of that, yeah. I think you said Jack Cornfield always says, um, no, not Jack Cornfield, Ram Das, um, in Be Here Now, that he talks about that practice of of kindness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you gotta read that book.
SPEAKER_00It's actually very, very good.
SPEAKER_04But it's really that that is that we are, you know, it's just that we other people are living their own story and we're living our own story. And so we have to be in the moment, we have to stop rehashing and rehearsing and just be and stop judging what's going on right in front of us and just being present, right? And that presence is what also helps us to tolerate things that are unpleasant.
SPEAKER_00And it doesn't mean that you don't stand up for yourself, and it doesn't mean that you have to.
SPEAKER_04No, you still need boundaries. That's what I was thinking about earlier when you said that is that we can we don't need to let people walk all over us. In fact, we shouldn't, but we can be generous and have boundaries at the same time. And I I was talking about this with you, I think the other day, is that all of these emotions and things that are going on, we can they can all coexist. Right? I can be having a great day and a terrible day all at the same time, right? You can be having, you can be grieving something, and I can be experiencing joy, and we can still coexist in the same space.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. You know, uh I I you know, one of the things that uh that people think like a patient once was like, Well, you sound like you're preaching toxic positivity, and it's like, absolutely not, right? It's not about avoiding the uncomfortable moments, right? It's just it's remembering that we all forget, that we all get reactive, we all lose our balance, and it's not about avoiding them, it's about noticing those moments, accepting them, and then coming back home again, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, and toxic positivity to me would be that, oh, you're uncomfortable with your emotions.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_04And so that you try to dismiss anything that's negative or that's gonna bring up anything uncomfortable in you, right? So that you can kind of have a cheerful and optimistic outlook in a situation. And that is actually very different than just slowing down and being present, right? Right. Because in those moments, you just don't have to say anything.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Quick question for you before we move on to our final segment. You spent many years supporting people through very difficult seasons of life. What do you think most often gets in the way of generosity? And I'm not just talking about generosity to others, but people being generous and gracious to themselves.
SPEAKER_04Well, well, what I said earlier, all of those things still apply here, right? Being stressed, being overwhelmed. But I think a big one is that we are our own worst critics. Right. And when we aren't true to ourselves, we create this internal unhappiness when we aren't living our authentic lives. And then, right, we can't be generous to ourselves or others because we're so unhappy. And we're basically spending all of our energy living a life that is really not ours.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a great, I think that's a great answer. And a good segue to our final segment, which is living generosity every day. Um, as we finish today, what are what are some final thoughts uh that you would like to leave people with, or some simple practices?
SPEAKER_04Well, it's it's not complicated, right? We just need to take these little things into our everyday life. Pause before talking. Ask yourself, does this really need to be said? Right? Not judging, right? We we all judge. There's so much judgment. We judge, we walk down the street. I mean, I I do it all the time. I did it the other day at the beach when I saw that woman with bright teal hair, and I was like, oh, wow, that's weird. Right. And so it's like looking at those things and and realizing that okay, maybe it's not for me is the better way to say it. Right. I wouldn't do that. I that's not for me. I don't really like that for myself. Right. But also reminding yourself maybe there's something more going on. Right, right. Right. And then and then looking for opportunities every day where you can practice generosity when you're in line at the store, when you're driving. I mean, especially in New York with driving. That's the biggest one for me. I just let people in now. Right. I just stop and I let people in. Right. And I realize that, you know, that's nice for them because if I don't, then five five cars behind me probably aren't going to either. Yeah. Right. And and we shouldn't do these things because we think someone's watching and we want praise for it. We should just do it because we should be kind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I I I I just want to go back to even what you were saying. I was being facetious when I was like, but it was weird. But you know what? One of the things I've learned, and one of the things I've learned as a therapist is what works for you is that's what works for you. And I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to abide by it. I have to help you live with the decisions that work for you, right?
SPEAKER_04Right. And the thing is that oftentimes these decisions don't work for people, but they're really not ready to face that. Right. Right. And that's the other part of it, is recognizing as well that, you know, yes, right? Like, no, I know, like, because here's the thing as a therapist, right? You could see for miles that something's not gonna work. And your client can come back every single week and it's still not working, but they're not ready to let go of it, right? So they have to be ready. It doesn't matter if you're ready. Right. And you know, because you have kids and I have kids, they don't ever want to hear what we have to say. But if someone else tells them, they might hear it. Right. And so we have to realize that, you know, people are going to continue with this, regardless of what our opinion, our advice, right, or corrective guidance is, until they're ready to do something differently. And so what are our opinions going to do? They're just gonna continue to hurt them.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And I think also, too, as a as as we wrap the the only thoughts I want to add on this, I work so with so many people that aren't generous, that you know, aren't generous uh not only to the others, but not to themselves. And one of the things I've said to you about a colleague, and I've come to realize it even with people that I've worked with in the past, is anybody that comes to work and is nasty and rude and mean and unkind and causes problems and is arguing all the time, you know who the first person they're not kind to is themselves.
SPEAKER_04Right. Right. It takes a lot of energy to be like that, I always say. Right. But when people act like that, and you used to come home from your corporate job and talk about things that would happen, and I would say, Oh, maybe that person was not seen in their childhood, right? That's how they perceive their childhood or whatever the situation was. We have to remember people, you know, people act out on their negative core beliefs. And so if you don't feel good about yourself, and I've said this to clients before who are miserable in their jobs, and then they go home and they have all these problems. Well, why would anybody at home get the best version of you if you go somewhere every single day that you hate going? Right? You absolutely despise your job, you're miserable, you're in tears, you're stressed out, you're on anxiety medication and depression medication, you get a DWI, right? I've had clients in these situations, and then you're and then you end up taking a mental health leave, and then you go back to the same job after the leave. And so why would anybody else in your life get the great screat version of you?
SPEAKER_00Right. I I I listen, it's it's crazy, right? I I
Workplace Kindness And Final Challenge
SPEAKER_00I worked with an executive who once had a housekeeper suspended because the woman, like it was like she came into her office and there was like a strand of hair on her desk. And she wanted to know, like, why was remember she wanted to know if she could actually figure out whose hair?
SPEAKER_04Whose hair was?
SPEAKER_00I mean, what? That was crazy. Like, whose hair is this? You know, I come in, I see her, I come into my desk and I see I I figure it's somebody who worked hard, right? And and it goes back to with Steve Capus, who was a great dude. I had an opportunity to work with him when I first started at NBC Universal. And Steve Cappas said the number one secret to being successful in business is treat everyone with kindness and generosity. And he was like the same level that you would treat the president of this company. I've learned that you give that same respect and love to the male, to the male clerk and to the janitor. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_04Well, I think that listen, every all those jobs need to be done. Right. So why should we treat those people like without respect? Right. And without gratitude, and without generosity. Right. Because at the end of the day, they're doing a job that you're not going to do.
SPEAKER_00There was um a story recently, um I think I for I can't remember what firm it was, but it was a person had come in for a very high senior role, um, interviewed very well, um, interviewed very well with everybody on the executive team. But then when they went down and asked the reception staff, well, how was that person when they came in? They were like she was disgustingly rude to all of us and condescending. That person didn't get the job, right? Because the CEO of that company says that if you cannot come in here and treat regular everybody with the same level of generosity that you treat us, then you are not fit to work.
SPEAKER_04But that should be in every single situation.
SPEAKER_03Every single situation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. So, Lynn, last question for you, as we wrap it up. If listeners remembered one thing from today's conversation, what do you think it should be? Or what would you hope it to be?
SPEAKER_04I think people should strive to be generous at least one time every single day. And it really becomes easier, and then you start to think about it and then you do it more. But let someone in in traffic, smile at someone. If they drop something, pick it up for them. Let someone go in front of you in line. But just do something kind and you know, with a generous heart every single day. Even if it's one little tiny thing.
SPEAKER_00And if there was one simple practice that you would encourage people to try, well, that's what it is.
SPEAKER_04I just said it. Right? Like, I and I do it all the time when I'm driving. I just let people in.
SPEAKER_00I think that's I think that's a good place. Well, thank you for being generous with me. Um, you know. Oh, thank you. I know um, I don't always do like many husbands out there who Do you love me too? Yep. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03I didn't hear you.
SPEAKER_00You didn't let me. I was actually getting ready to go into a whole love summit monologue that you just shut down. But okay, I but if you just want me to keep it simple, I love you, baby. Okay. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.
