Matt Pycroft: On Adventure, Curiosity, and Purpose

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Join Chris Watson as he interviews filmmaker, adventurer, and podcast host Matt Pycroft, known for his captivating adventure films and insights on The Adventure Podcast. In this episode, Matt shares his journey from a curious, troubled youth to a leading voice in adventure storytelling. Exploring pivotal moments that shaped his career, we dive into Matt’s groundbreaking expeditions with Cold House Collective, his evolving philosophy, and why he believes adventure is a transformative state of mind. Covering topics like ego, masculinity, and the balance between bravery and vulnerability, Matt’s reflections offer a new perspective on exploration.

Episode Highlights:

• Early Years: From bullied teen to outdoor advocate through education in the Lake District.
• Cold House Collective Origins: Building a brand on authentic adventure storytelling and high-stakes filmmaking.
• Redefining Adventure: Matt’s view that adventure is a state of mind, accessible to everyone.
• Behind the Lens with Nat Geo: Filming Arctic Ascent with Alex Honnold and navigating high-pressure shoots.
• Mental Health & Authenticity: Overcoming imposter syndrome, therapy, and staying real in a competitive industry.
• Inspiring Legacy: The lasting impact of his work on others, reflections on fatherhood, and living with purpose.
• Call to Adventure & Advocacy: Encouraging local adventure and support for environmental initiatives, including the Right to Roam.

Key Quotes:

• "Adventure is a mindset, not an activity. You can find it in your backyard."
• "The real purpose of adventure storytelling is to help people love and protect the natural world."

Matt encourages listeners to embrace a mindset of adventure, whether by exploring a familiar neighborhood with new eyes or immersing themselves in nature without any planned agenda. His advice: Find five things you haven’t noticed before and let curiosity guide you.

Pay It Forward:

Matt recommends supporting 1% for the Planet, an organization dedicated to environmental stewardship, and advocates for the Right to Roam movement, encouraging listeners to experience the freedom of nature and support access to land for all.

Resources Mentioned:

• Cold House Collective – Matt’s film production company known for its authentic and adventurous storytelling.
• The Adventure Podcast – Matt’s own podcast where he interviews explorers, filmmakers, and thought leaders.
• 1% for the Planet – A global movement inspiring businesses and individuals to support environmental solutions.
• Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes – A deep dive into the Right to Roa

Chapters

• 0:00 A Moment of Doubt on Roraima
• 0:34 Introduction to the Adventure Diaries Podcast
• 0:55 Meet Matt Pycroft: Filmmaker and Adventurer
• 1:26 Matt's Formative Years and Early Influences
• 5:22 The Outward Bound Experience
• 8:22 Discovering a Passion for Adventure Media
• 24:10 Founding Coldhouse Collective
• 36:58 The National Geographic Opportunity
• 46:56 Facing Fear and Making the Right Call
• 47:46 The Hundred Year Plan and Sensible Climbing
• 48:21 Debating the Notion of Dying Doing What You Love
• 49:18 Balancing Adventure and Family Life
• 50:56 Exploring New Interests Beyond Climbing
• 52:13 The Importance of Better Men and Masculinity
• 54:08 Redefining Adventure and Its Accessibility
• 1:03:22 The Beauty and Majesty of Scotland
• 1:07:09 The Mount Roraima Expedition
• 1:14:01 Personal Reflections and Future Plans

Transcript

 I had this one moment on Roraima that I was Jumar ing up, ascending up, it was over this little rock flake and it didn't look right. And I didn't want to message up to Leo on the radio and say, can you just come down and check this because it looks a bit sketchy. Because Leo used to be my hero and now he's my mate. 

I didn't want him to think I was soft. I kind of go, well, Leo thinking I'm soft is probably better than me dying. So I'm going to just radio up. And I had enough experience at this point to look at that rope and go, I kind of know it's not safe. I think that my purpose is basically. To help people fall in love with the outdoors and the natural world and adventure 

Welcome to the adventure diaries podcast where we share tales of adventure connection and Exploration from the smallest of creators to the larger than life adventurers We hope their stories inspire you to go create your own extraordinary adventures and now your host Chris Watson  

Welcome to another episode of the adventure diaries Today, I'm especially excited to have Matt Pycroft on the show.

Matt is a filmmaker, photographer, and he's the host of The Adventure Podcast, a show that shares authentic stories of adventure, the natural world, and expedition life, with conversations that go behind the scenes to look at the motivations, the challenges, and the experiences in the world of adventure and expeditions.

But in today's episode, we dive into Matt's own journey. We discuss how his life changed at 16 as a result of his experiences with Outward Bound, to how he then went on to found Coldhouse Collective, and more recently Matt has directed flagship expedition series for National Geographic, such as Arctic Ascent with climber Alex Honnold of Oscar winning Free Solo fame, and Limitless with Chris Hemsworth. 

And today we explore the deeper themes that drive Matt's work. Like the power of collaboration, the importance of ego death in leadership, and the idea that adventure isn't just a series of risky activities, but something accessible to anyone with the courage to look at the world a little differently.

This conversation offers a fascinating window into the mind of someone who's just as interested in the human story's side of adventure,  and it's great to turn the mic on Matt, he's someone who's been in part inspiration for the inception of the Adventure Diaries, and I'm sure you'll love this conversation.

So settle in and enjoy this fantastic conversation with Matt Pycroft.  Matt Pycroft, welcome to the Adventure Diaries. How are you? 

I'm very well, thanks. I mean, we've just been talking off mic and off camera about how I am, really, having put my kids to bed in the middle of a house move. All the adventurous things you want to talk about, but yeah, I'm good.

Yeah, adventures of a parent. Uh, I know all too well my little one's causing chaos downstairs. It's the, it's the holidays at the minute.  Touching on what we were saying beforehand, I'm kind of equal parts excited and nervous about the adventure storytelling royalty. I never thought when I started this that you would be a guest so soon.

So, so thank you. 

Thanks. In classic British style that makes me feel very uncomfortable.  

Exactly. And I might meet you here. even more uncomfortable because I'm about to break my own format a little bit and ask you to introduce yourself, who you are and what you do, whatever that means to you.  

Right.  Well, as you say, I'm Matt Pycroft.

I suppose to sum it up succinctly as I can. I'm a filmmaker, photographer, podcast host, but I suppose I have a lot of strings to my bow and a lot of that's by design. So, I guess my career is centered around adventure film. I work a lot with brands doing kind of authentic documentary stories with a brand logo on the front and back.

Um, accidentally broke into TV a few years ago, which I'm sure you want to talk about. And accidentally started a podcast six years ago, which has turned into its own thing. But I suppose my life and career now is heavily centered around the worlds of adventure and exploration. I dipped my toe into other areas, conservation, filmmaking, humanitarian, that kind of thing.

And that's definitely the direction I'd like to be going in a bit more as well. I'm also the vice president of the Royal Geographical Society. No idea how that happened. I'm a father, I'm a husband, and I'm a weekend armchair adventurer these days.  

I wouldn't say armchair considering some of the expeditions that we'll come on to.

So thanks Matt. I think, so to add to that and put a bit of a frame around this session, I want to kind of roll back a little bit and touch upon your kind of formative years, earlier influences, and then we're going to navigate hopefully through that The Genesis of Cold House Collective, the adventure podcast, and then some of your expeditions and time permitting.

There's three that I want to touch on the Vatnikul Ice Cap and Greenland's Mount Roraima and the House of the Gods, which I said I'd watched in advance of this. That's fantastic. And then most recently and most notable, the Arctic Ascent, again, back in. Greenland with Alex Honnold, Aldo Cain and a host of other Hazel Finlay as well, and Heidi Silvestre, I believe, if I recall.

So rolling back, where did you grow up and what kind of experience did you have in your formative years relating to the outdoors and adventure? 

Well, I mean, this answer is a funny one, you know, I've, it's only recently I've started appearing in other people's podcasts and I've really kind of reflected on how I answer this question because it can take hours.

And I promise it won't right now, but in its simplest form, you know, my answer is kind of unsatisfying. I'm not some kind of adventure junkie child with adventurous parents who did things. For the moment I was. Three years old or whatever, you know, I was born in Grimsby and I grew up near Skegness on the east coast of England I mean two of the least adventurous places you could possibly hope to be or not hope to be and I had a good childhood in lots of ways, you know, wonderful parents Happy child in lots of ways and adventurous in my own way Like, I was a skateboarding misfit.

I got into a lot of trouble. I was your kind of classic, not really naughty, but kind of naughty kid. We used to nick wood and bricks from a local building site to go and build skate ramps, and the police would knock on the door to ask my mum how all of this stuff appeared on the driveway. And then to cut a very, very long story short, I was really, really badly bullied at school and hated secondary school.

I was a tiny little kid, five foot three. I looked very different to how I do now. And we could maybe come on to how all of this is by design.  And then at 16 years old, school offered me the opportunity to go on an out of bound course in Scotland and it completely and totally changed my life in every way.

And I have this really vivid memory. I have a terrible memory, but I remember this really clearly of sitting down with the instructor at the end of this three week course. And him saying, so what do you do now? And I said, well, I don't really know, but I suppose I've got to go back and do my A levels. You know, I've got to carry on with school.

I really don't want to. And then just bang, at this moment, I looked across at him and I said, what do you do? He said, well, I'm an outdoor instructor. I'm like, well, what does that mean? So anyway, fast forward, I got off the train, met my parents and they have my exam results for my GCSEs in their hand.  I was predicted, you know, really good grades.

I was quite academic, but I knew I wasn't going to hit them because I basically hadn't applied myself at school at all. And I said to my parents, it doesn't matter what I get because I'm moving to the Lake District in three days, and I'm going to study outdoor education as a national diploma. And I did.

You know, the story goes on and on and on, and the quickest version possible is maybe I wanted to be a mountain guide, then I decided I wanted to join the Royal Marines as an officer. And both of those dreams kind of died when I broke my arm, broke my radius really badly. And now, you know, most people will be listening to this, but for anyone watching, these two fingers, middle fingers on my right hand, they don't really work properly.

I can grip, but I can't extend. So I'm not being self deprecating here. I'll never be a good rock climber. I get by, I have like pain management tactics. I used to like not talk about this stuff loads because I thought it would affect my career, but now it hasn't, it doesn't. So I can talk about it, but I needed to find a way to spend my life doing the things that I dreamt of doing, you know, playing in the mountains and living this outdoor life.

I'm getting paid to do it, managed to get onto an adventure media degree program, which doesn't exist anymore. And basically just got to spend three years kind of dossing about mountains with my mates, uh, pretending to do schoolwork, uni work. And yeah, kind of fell in love with cameras, but it wasn't an instant thing.

It took some time. I was really in love with being a misfit, you know, roguish boy getting to play outside a lot.  

See the Outward Bound course, what was that like? It was a week, couple of weeks when, what were you thrown into? 

It was three weeks and it's weird, you know, Outward Bound, I mean, I owe them so much and I'm actually still in touch with the old instructor.

I email him every now and again when something's gone really well. Um,  but you know, I was just this kid who hadn't ever done it before. Born in a rock climbing harness, hadn't been in a kayak, none of this stuff. And suddenly I got the train there, which was crazy, given my age and experience. Got the train to Scotland to Loch Eel near Fort William.

And it's all the classic stuff. You know, you do team building exercises in the woods for the first few days. You go on a little day walk with what you think is a heavy backpack. It rains, you get cold and wet. You come back, you learn a little about how not to get cold and wet in the future.  Then you do a three day canoe expedition and the last week is a like full, in big inverted commas, expedition where you carry everything you need and walk on this route that you think you've planned yourself, but really the instructor did it.

But it is a mind blowing thing for a kid to do, particularly like a disenfranchised kid, whether you're naughty or whether you're insecure or anything like that. It gave me so much confidence.  Despite being this tiny, I was five foot three, long floppy hair, and it just gave me so much confidence and made me realize there's this whole world out there that I don't know much about or understand.

And the main part, you know, cheesy self help podcast comment number one was, it made me realize I could do the things. That other people did. You know, that glass ceiling, it, it does exist, but there's an opportunity to smash through it. 

Yeah. So when you were assuming you were, I mean, I don't know the area so well in Grimsey.

Grimsby, is that like inner city type environment or was it, what was it like there compared to the, because imagine going out to the highlands, you know, for a lot of people would be completely like. You know, because I was brought up, there's some parallels in our stories, which is probably something for another time and a beer potentially.

But I think that experience for me going out into the wild at that age was, you know, yeah, just going back to it. That was a bit of a tipping point to, you know, that there's more to gay concrete and, you know, You know, kicking a ball off a wall or running around with a bunch of rogues, essentially. 

Yeah.

You know, I don't want to like, I'm really conscious of not kind of overhyping this or making it into something it wasn't. You know, I'm not from like a really rough background or anything. Where I'm from is like, imagine like a really, really run down seaside town where the average age of the people who live there is 65.

You know, there's lots of bungalows, there's lots of caravans and there's not many kids. That's basically it. But you know, we went on holidays to Cornwall every year, every summer. And I started skiing, uh, snowboarding when I was in my early teens. You know, strange story. And again, beer for another day. But like I was born into a really working class family.

But then in my teens, my dad had got this job and suddenly we were middle class and everything was different. And then he lost it all when I was 16. And that's a whole different story. But I kind of moved through these social circles and groups as well as a kid, Very formative as well, but it wasn't that I didn't know these places existed. 

I just thought they weren't for me. I thought that Cornwall was where I went on holiday and wore tie dye shirts and wooden beads on my wrists and pretended to be a surfer for a week. And then I went back home again. You know, skiing was what we did for a holiday once every two or three years. It wasn't a lifestyle.

And I think what Outward Bound gave me was the realization that people did this as a lifestyle. That was the drastic change. 

Yeah, that's what all the team building stuff and, you know, character building as well. No doubt stands you in good stead. What was it like? Were you creative when you were at school and stuff before Outward Bound?

How did that  spark at night when you got into the adventure media? Because, you know, looking at the work you do today, I mean, it is very good. How have you got to that? How have you got to that? I'm so intrigued. 

Yeah, it's funny. I was talking to my mom about this a few years ago because I've always said that I'm not creative in any way.

And I sort of was kind of proud of like, I've built this world and I've trained this creative side of my brain, but My mom said, that's not true. I was very, very, I was not musical. I was not artistic. You know, I couldn't draw, I couldn't sing, couldn't paint anything like that. But I was really curious and I was quite creative in lots of other ways.

I had a wild imagination, but I think the curiosity was the main. driver. My mom's commented on that and it does ring true and it rings true now. I think that's maybe one of my, the things I like most about myself. There's lots of don't like, you know, but I'm very, very curious and there's not much that bores me.

And I think that's always been true. You know, there's, I don't get bored ever really. And I could have a conversation about, you know, how plumbing works, um,  in prisons and I go, Oh, that's fascinating. Let's talk about that for an hour. So I think I'm not the most creative of filmmakers. You know, actually, if you were to work with me regularly or hire me or whatever, you'd sort of know that working with me over time.

I'm not one of these like creative director of photography gods. I've worked with a lot of them. I'm curious. And I think my skillset comes from, I'm an empath and I like people. And it's actually, I, I think my skillset for all my flaws is I'm really genuinely interested in what makes people tick and how things work and documentary film, particularly as a director, podcast hosting as an interviewer, conversation list, curiosity is like the number one.

necessary skill, I 

think. Yeah, I would agree. And the reason I asked that, there's got to have been something in there because I think it's the storytelling that you do and the way that you navigate the conversation on your own show comes, yeah.  It doesn't come from someone that's actually went and studied it, it feels like it's almost like an innate ability, but it's not disingenuous and it's not forced.

I'm just wondering whether there was any sort of vocations when you were at school, whether it was art or like, you know, film or drama or whatever it was. Cause it's, yeah, there's certainly something there that's kind of, that you can see through all your work, Matt. 

Well, I suppose it speaks to, again, I'm kind of repeating myself, but giving it some context.

The reason I was bullied at school. It's because I was, I was quite academic, but I was so curious. And so I put my hand up all the time to ask questions and then you suddenly you're a SWAT, suddenly you're a geek and it's like, Oh, and it took me getting to college where I was in a class of 10 to realize that it was a weird, but B it was kind of being nurtured a bit more at college.

Like my mates are a bit more, it was banter rather than bullying. And it was kinda at college, like, I think it helped that I'd kind of grown to 5'10 and my shoulders went pop, like, that was useful. But curiosity was more rewarded by my mates, like, it was stuff we were interested in. I was curious about expeditions and how stuff worked and the origin of these things.

So I think it's always been the same. I just wanted to know everything. I always just hand up, answer questions. I did loads of reading at home around school subjects. And it comes from there. I think the creativity, it's a really interesting question. And it's something I look at all the time in myself.

Cause I nurture quite a lot of like young talent and I look at them and they're like innate abilities, but also their interests. Because they don't always correlate. And I think for me, the creativity is learned when I say creativity. I mean, the, the artistry of it all, rather than the conversations and the curiosity, the artistry is learned for sure.

And I think that you can train that. I think you hear so many people say, Oh, I'm not a good photographer. I'm like, well, I've taken, I mean, it's literally over a million photos. Because I know, you know, I know what I take on an expedition or a weekend shoot, I've de, I've probably taken more like 5 million photos.

Wow. Most of them are crap  . I'd say a hundred of them are really good. Maybe 500 of them are good. But I've taken over a million and I've messed up a lot and I've messed up a lot of shoots that mattered. Like I've come back and gone, oh, I didn't do this or that and I should have done this instead. Anyway, I'm off topic here, but I think like one thing again that I like about myself and I'm proud of is I'm, I'm quite good at taking feedback and criticism in a non, I don't take insult by it if it's delivered kindly.

And I think that's set me up really well. Because I'm able, I've got loads of mentor figures and loads of people who are more talented than me and I'm quite good at absorbing and sponging information without taking offence. 

Yeah, that's a really good trait because, I mean, nobody knows anything really, we're all, you know.

We're all still learning and who's got the right to see it should be done this way or that way. It's especially in this kind of art of filmmaking or adventure filmmaking and stuff.  Something just kind of, when you were talking there, I think you've done a, an article with sidetrack magazine and it was on, it was at the coast of Portugal with the Porsche, Porsche to can, I think it was. 

And there's something in that story whereby All the logistics that went into it, and then when the waves didn't arrive on the day, so you had to adapt the storyline a little bit. So, and I think the guy went on to like a hydrofoil or something, but you still managed to tell an authentic story. So you still managed to adapt the empath, maybe, in you and still bringing a story to, a story to life.

so much. I just, I really, really liked that so much as not being stubborn and trying to force a narrative on it. Like, can I go in with a, you know, the dynamics of the change and then still deliver a great piece of filmmaking? 

Yeah. It's interesting as well. I think I've been through this huge process of like introspection, soul searching over the past few years.

And now I'm in this really good place where I'm able to like look at things and work out how something happened and why, whether it was good or bad. And I think. You know, that's a really good example of a, of a moment where I really like pressure. I quite like stress. And then the old business partner said to me, you know, you have to be careful because you create stress where there isn't any, because you thrive on it.

You have to be careful of what that does to other people. And I was like, Oh God, that's quite pointed and true. But that, you know, Nazaré in Portugal, we had no waves. So what do you do? Well, I could panic. Well, panic would be the obvious response. But instead I thought, well, what's the interesting story here?

And Andrew Cotton, the surfer, he brought all his foils with him because he's learning to ride a hydrofoil because he thinks that's how you'll surf the biggest wave in the world. I got that out of him over dinner and a beer. I'm like, well, that's actually the story, right? That's what I, as a curious person, I'm like, ah, Well, why?

Why is that how you're going to ride the biggest wave in the world? Because I don't surf those waves. And he says, well, it's like riding over bricks when you're riding these waves on a normal surfboard. You know, you're like, there's all these bumps in the waves. It's really on a hydrofoil, you're floating.

And I'm like,  oh, I never, that never occurred to me. And then you start to go, Oh, now we've got a story now we can't show the NAR. Oh, maybe we can, because maybe we'll license some stock footage of Andrew surfing in the big waves. Like that's a game we play all the time. So we did that. Then we had these amazing local DOPs that we used to working in the water where I'm rubbish. 

And we said that we gave him the brief, like, make it look like he's having this, like, Ethereal moment where he is like really connected to the water. It's not about gnarly like bro culture, it's like connection to place and passion and yeah. Uh, again, off topic, but like I love that part of the process. I love that.

Like what is the story? 

Yeah. And I think not making that about yourself and like you say, being that empath and being curious and, and just, you know, everyone else has got a, placed a part in the story as well and they've all got their own skills and stuff like that. It's, it is fantastic. On the flip side of that, you know, you talk about being curious and working, you know, in that environment, do you ever come across challenges where you, where people are trying to force a narrative in a filmmaking situation or in a documentary that is less authentic or maybe going against what you're trying to do without giving any secrets or  brand insights or anything that way?

Do you ever come across that way?  

Well, as you point out, I have to be slightly careful what I say here. The answer is yeah, all the time. I think I often say this to full time team at Coldhouse, but also freelancers we work with like, remember, we're telling someone else's story is a line I use all the time and  I don't say that I'd be happy for any of my clients to hear me say that.

That's the point, right? I'm being hired to tell a story. Now, sometimes we come up with that story. We picture a client will want it to go a specific way based on their objectives for the year. That's fine. Like I'm a professional, you know, that, you know, amateur amateur. I use this line all the time, but like it comes from the Latin and more, you know, for the love, like an amateur, just, it's not lesser than a professional.

I do it for money,  which means that somebody is my boss. And yeah. Very, very regularly. I mean, I can say, you know, Nat Geo is the perfect example. Um, we'll talk about this later, but like I was hired to tell a story and I was told what the story was. And I've shot two, I've directed two series for them. Now, the first time I just did what I was told, the second time I pushed back so hard. 

Really? 

Yeah. 

It worked a little bit because I gained their trust the first time around and I was able to kind of say, well, trust me, I do this full time, like climbing expedition films. I know how to do this.  This is the bit I know, and if you do this, it'll be so much better than if you do that, but I enjoy that.

Like I don't, I'm not, I don't mind conflict. In fact, I quite enjoy it when it's kind, you know, like I like sitting down with an exec producer and I know who's wearing the crown in the room. That's a key. I often say this to my team as well. Remember who's wearing the crown because someone always is.

Sometimes it's you. 

But 

most of the time it's not and saying, I'll sit and have these like rows over a beer with an exec producer and say, you've got to do this. You've got to do that. That is the story. And he'll say, no, because of this. And then at the end, I'll have got 20 percent over the bridge my way.

And he'll say, look, We're done now. You know, this is what we're doing. And I say, yes, boss, of course, boss, and I mean it, you know, I get it. Let's go. 

You're probably putting money in the bank for future with that though, because people like that really, they don't like yes men and they don't like people that's going to, you know, well, some people do unfortunately, but yeah, I think that it's healthy to be that because  the old Anthony Bourdain quote goes along the lines of, you know, you might not, you know, agrony or something like that and still you know, I'm butchering it, but I, yeah, I get, I get the, I get the message. 

That's creativity, by the way. I think that's my, you know, they want to sit there. People are much more qualified to come in than me, but I think that. For some people, definitely me, creativity is a team sport. And there are certain people, particularly Emma Crome, who works with me at Coldhouse, she's the creative director.

Like we are in some ways the perfect team because 50 percent of the time we totally agree and then we've got this kind of validation that it's a good idea. 50 percent of the time we disagree and then it's a lot of fun because we've never offended each other, 

ever.  

But we've had these massive, like, not blowout rows, but like heated debates, which are really fun.

You know, why do it like this? Let's do it like that. I mean, that, that's where you get really interesting creative ideas coming in because you merge these two worlds, these two brains.  

So say, then let's touch on that. So cold house collective, what was the genesis for that? And where did the name come from? 

Well,  Genesis, I mean, I was 24 when I founded it, which it was kind of mad looking back now, but, um, I have to be again, slightly careful how I phrase it, but you know what? I've never said this before, but I'm going to be honest. I think 50 percent of it came from some frustration. So the way that adventure film has worked for a long time is somebody will go to a brand with an idea and say, I'm making this film, please, could you support it by giving me some money?

And what the Americans were doing was instead they were going to brands and saying, what stories do you want to tell?  And I basically, me and a friend, co founder, who then left, um, to move to America, Adrian Smara, we were like, let's just do what they do. Let's just go to the brands and like present them with all these ideas and talk about the brand objectives for the year and then make the films the brands need rather than getting them to sponsor a movie.

And it seems so obvious now, but it wasn't then. So that's where it all came from. I mean, we spent years, dirt poor, kind of living in vans, driving across Europe, like spending all of the money. We had these budgets that we thought were massive. You know, we get like six grand from a brand to make a movie and realize that we'd spent seven and a half.

And it's like, well,  that's not business, is it?  But, um, the other side, if I'm really, really honest is like classic white male, young white male arrogance. It's probably where it came from of like, I'm going to start a company, a production company. And, you know, that's a conversation we could have another day because it will dominate now.

But I've never said that out loud, but it is true was I just thought, well, why not, why not me? I didn't have any kids. I wasn't married. I was single actually. And I thought, well, why not? Let's just give it a go. Like if it fails, then. I've got literally nothing to lose. 

When did you start that after your adventure media course?

Was it, was it part of that or on the back of that or? 

It was two years. So I did an internship at the back end of my degree with a Polish climbing photographer called Lukasz Wojciecha, who I actually spoke to for the first time in about 10 years, about a month ago. And really interesting, like how much we've both changed, but for the better.

And then I worked for a year and a bit for a company called Hotakes Productions, who make climbing films. That was like the dream, I couldn't believe it had happened. Yeah, and I really enjoyed it, but I just, I felt like there was more I wanted to do and I wanted to start directing and make my own movies and I just thought, now's the time.

Like, if, if I don't do it now, I can see where this is going to go, because the beauty of starting a company. Like this, when you're 24 is you do not have to worry about profitability. You do not have to worry about making X a month because I was literally living in a van. It just didn't matter. Whereas now, you know, if I was, if I'd, if I'd got a 10 year, if I'm 15 years in, if I got a 15 year film career behind me, I decided to start a company.

Well, I need to be making X a month to keep my kids fed, the roof over our head. But no, I wouldn't do it now. I couldn't. The risk's too high. 

It's a bold move considering, you know, where you were two years in your adventure media and then setting up an adventure filmmaking company. I mean, it's phenomenal where you've gotten to with it, but it's a bold move. 

It's ignorance and naivety rather than boldness, I think, but it works. You know, It worked again. Well, it's 

working. Come on. It's fantastic. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Come on. You know, 

I live in a rented house. I still drive a white van. And I think, you know, I don't really mind that again. That's a whole different conversation, but I've pumped everything back into it.

And I think that's another reason it's worked is I haven't been greedy and that again. I, I just love it. I think that's the beauty of it, right? I just love it. 

Is this your purpose? Oh, that's such a,  that's such a, I wanted to leave that till later, but do you think you found your calling with all of this?

Or is there something more? 

It's a really good question that's really timely, because I've been thinking about it a lot recently for a few reasons. I think I know what my purpose is for now, and I think the older I get, you know, I'm 35 now, which is not old, but it's not young, and you know, I've done some miles now, so I'm allowed to pretend to be wise, but all the things I dreamt of doing, I've done, which is insane.

You know, the end goal, career end goal was to direct for Nat Geo.  And there's that cheesy line, which is, you know, You've already done so many things that you told yourself when you achieved them would make you happy. And that's actually true of a lot of us. Whether that's having kids or getting married or getting the dream job or whatever, like, a lot of us have done those things.

And so for a long time, my purpose was be an adventure filmmaker and get paid for it. Well, I achieved that really early. I was getting paid for it. Wasn't much, but I think to answer your purpose question, I read a few books that completely changed my life. I had again, big conversation. We don't have to go there, but I had a fairly major like breakdown when I was 27, 28, and I had a lot of therapy off the back of that, and that really helped because it killed my ego completely.

And that's remained. I think that my purpose is basically. to help people fall in love with the outdoors and the natural world and adventure. And that's my little part in trying to fix a struggling planet. Because I can't save the world. I'm not arrogant enough to think I can save the world. But what I can do, is Is help do my little bit in the path to create environmentalists, because  you don't just become an environmentalist because you read something on the internet, you know, you is the Attenborough quote that you'll never protect what you don't love and you won't love what you haven't experienced.

Well, you and I filmmakers, podcasters, all these people, we can help people experience the natural world in ways that they otherwise can't. And help them realize it's fragility. It's beauty. So that for me and the feedback I get from the podcasts and the films and seeing what people go on to do, people I've nurtured through my work, it's quite profound, like the response and actually seeing that tangible response.

I've accepted, not just accepted, but like, I love, I am this little cog in this massive machine. But like, I spend quite a lot of time working to make sure that that cog is shiny and polished and functioning properly and is well greased. And I'm proud of my little cog, my little part. 

My 

final caveat is that I think I've got more in me.

Again, I haven't talked about this much yet and maybe I'm not ready to just because the ideas aren't formed yet, but I'm 35 and I feel like I've got a lot left to do. And I'm quite psyched, I think, at the minute, like, now that I've had kids, and they're one and three, and we don't, we're not gonna have any more, I don't think.

That's been such a tricky few years. For all the obvious reasons, but now that we're coming out the other side, I'm like, okay  Let's press the turbo button. Yeah, ask me again in a year or two 

Yeah I love that because not having the ego to think that you can change the world because there are a lot of dickheads out there that you know that think they can and there's a lot of the Social media influencer type style.

That's just you don't want to go my soapbox a little bit, but I think just that ability to change one person, you know, and, you know, getting the feedback on it is it's a degree of validation, but I think we're seeing that before we can start recording that there is a lot of negativity out there, but you can't change the world.

If you change one person or someone takes something from this, if it stops someone doing something or it gets them out and going active or whatever it is, that network effect is partly why I'm doing this. And you're part of the reason why I'm doing this. So I am one of the little cogs in that machine.

So I think just keep that up. 

But you're right. It's like, it's kind of like someone said I should stop using this specific example, but I like it. So I won't be like, It's basically a pyramid scheme.  It's a really good 

one. 

Well, it's kind of like, well, I've done the things that I've done, you know, heavily in some people would call it the ripple effect.

Right. But I've done what I've done because of the people who inspired me. And you have said, you know, on this recording and before, like the adventure podcast was a part of why you went on to do what you've done. That's amazing. Like, I don't feel threatened by that, you know, but I hope my listener numbers are more than yours because they're  a healthy competition.

Yeah, exactly. I, 

you know, I want you to like, I want you to nail this because the more people that do it, the more we grow it and then somebody else will start one. You know, there's a guy, Adam Raja, who I made a film about. Who I did a podcast with and you should definitely get him on this podcast. He's become a really close friend and he's been really honest with me about how much, you know, I did a podcast with him.

We stayed on at the end and we had a beer and we both talked about loads of shit that we dealt with in our lives. And then we decided in the original podcast and do a new one. And then we made a film about how Adam had been in prison for dealing drugs and all this stuff. And he was never going to talk about it.

And now talking about it has changed his career 

and he's 

like, you were the catalyst for that. I'm like, well, I could be really egotistical with that, or I could really self deprecate with that. Or I could just help like own the truth. And the truth is that, yeah, actually that podcast and that conversation was a catalyst. 

for Adam going on to do what he's done. He's done 99. 999 percent of that, but I was a trigger. 

And 

I am so, so proud of that. And I need no fame, fortune or reward for it. It's worth more than a Ferrari in the garden, you know, on the driveway. 

It's very serendipitous. And I liked what you said because, When I reached out, I was like,  it's like, am I overreaching here?

Because, because I'm like, you know, Matt is the stalwart in the adventure space. He's not going to give me any time of day. Is he going to see me as competition? Even though I'm not as competent, because I don't see it as competition. I see it as collaboration. We've got similar values. Empathetic. We want to drive people to do and experience more and get outdoors and there's enough for everyone to, you know, if you can impart something on me and I can pass that on in the park to someone else and you know, it's just a wonderful thing.

It really is. 

Yeah, totally. And I think so many people, this, you know, We're not, we're not doing many adventure stories, but I like, Laura says I'm the producer on the adventure podcast, I'm not allowed to say armchair philosophy anymore, but I like a bit of armchair philosophy, I think it's good. And I just think like, it's that ego death thing.

There's a totally legitimate version of this where you or I both have a bit of an ego and we both need to be the big guy and all that. But I'm just, I cannot abide it. I'm so bored of it. It comes out because that's a masculinity conversation. It's usually men. Managers and it comes from insecurity. 

Yeah, there's a lot of provided bullshit that honestly, yeah,  and let's see, but there's some parallels and there can  be talk about mental health and therapy and stuff  afterwards.

So switching lanes a little bit then into some expeditions. Curious. You mentioned earlier about your injury. And again, if anyone's listening, they can't see I'm holding up my hands.  But how on earth do you do something like  Arctic Ascent, Ingmar Kortelak, climbing that level and filming a lot of that if you can, you know, you've got an injury where your hand hit, how do you manage to rock climb?

Well, first thing to say is that I don't do much rock climbing, ever, anymore. Second thing, and you know, we, I spend a lot of time ascending ropes rigged by very talented people, often the lead climbers. Okay. Or, and this is rarer, but it happens particularly in telly, we come in from the top, so we'll back rig all the ropes from the top and meet the climbers and do it like that.

But um, the second point, I guess is, the second part of the answer is, I surround myself with incredibly talented people. By design and that we can talk a little bit about that if you want to later on, but I love high functioning teams and I like leading them.  I think that's a skill I have, but I like being the weakest link in those high functioning teams and knowing when to deploy certain people.

And that again is an exercise in ego death, knowing when to say, no, no, no, no, no, I can't do that bit. That's your bit. Um, whether that's a skillset or whether that's a, you know, there's a guy called Pablo who I've worked with on both of the Nat Geo things. We send Pablo in when you've got to keep up with Honnold because I can't keep up with him, but Pablo can.

So deploy the Pablo, you know, that's the game. Um, the third thing is like, and this is classic, you know, white male arrogance, but it worked is like, just fake it till you make it. 

I 

mean, the amount of times I have told somebody I can do something that I have no, not no idea how to do, but there was some doubt in my mind.

Nat Geo round one was the first time. But a good example of I could not believe they gave me the job and my overwhelming feeling was you have made such a terrible mistake by giving me this job, but I'm going to give it my all. 

So how, so  talk us through that then. So for, for anyone that doesn't know just a little bit of frame.

So Matt, you kind of produced and filmed the Nat Geo three part series Arctic Ascent with Alex Hornold's Hazel Finlay. It was Heidi Silvestre doing part of it for NASA. So it was a mix of science, adventure, and a kind of another world first for Alex Honnold. 

Yeah. 

How did you get that job? 

Yeah, well, it's a departure from my normal work in a sense, because most of the work I do is through my production company, Colthouse, that we've mentioned already.

And again, it's funny timing for you to ask me this because I was thinking about it today because I was listening to a book about, um, essentially creating opportunity. And it was totally by chance that I got this job. And it's because I said yes to an expedition in 2014 to Pakistan with a guy called John Griffith.

Didn't get paid to go on that expedition. I did hardly anything on the trip. I got to base camp. They went and climbed a mountain. I was supposed to fly drones around it, but the drones didn't work. I did nothing on that trip, but John and I got on, that's 10 years ago that I did that. And then John texts me at two in the morning.

This is January, 2022  and says, you're going to get a message from a guy working with Nat Geo. And I rang him at two in the morning. I was like, what? And he'd said, just, you're going to get a message. And basically it turns out. Plimsoll Productions who did the project for Nat Geo, one of the exec producers who I now, you know, is a close friend, we've done loads together.

They were trying to find a director who was used to managing high end talent, which I've done a lot of, um, different part of my career, that kind of A list talent, could work on big walls, could direct the team leader team, manage logistics, health and safety, creative, editorial, like lead those things, not run and own them, have polar skills.

I've worked a lot with helicopters and suddenly I was looking at this list and I was like, that's quite a niche list, but I have got all those skills. It's like basically every skill I've got, there's none left in my bank now, but everything they need I've got and they couldn't find someone. And there'd been some advantages to like Jimmy Chin and all the original kind of American, Nat Geo gods having won Oscars and stuff because they were too big time for all this now.

So there was a space for someone like, you know, the little old bald me to wade in and steal the thunder. But that was literally how it happened. They had no idea I existed, but just, they'd asked John and John directs a lot of VR now and is an amazing Alpine photographer, but he's not, he, by his own admission, he doesn't really direct feature films very often.

And he said, just ring Matt. That was it. 

Did you have, did you have to go for like an interview or go and meet them and stuff like that? What was that like? What were you dressed like? What were you dressed like? I took my shirt 

off. I took my 

shirt 

off. If you can imagine it looking that way. Yeah, I did. I think it was six rounds of interview.

So there are various stages of seniority through, and then until I eventually was speaking to the execs at Nat Geo, I never, honestly, not self deprecating, I just said to my wife at the time, like. This is a cool process to go through, knowing that I'm not going to get the job. And she was like, just having your name on that list, like at this stage in your career, that's enough.

And then I got the phone call to say, you've got the job. 

What was that like? I, 

honestly, I mean, I, I did cry,  managed to not cry on the call, but I did cry afterwards. 

It was just, 

it was the dream, you know, it was the end goal was to direct films for that year. 

Did you vision?  I don't mean that you're a visionary, but do you do like vision, like, you know, visualization exercises and stuff?

Was this ever part of, was this part of the plan, I assume? 

I am a walking self help cliche.  All of the  meditation, visualization, self affirmation, I do all of that. And I have for a long time and I don't want to turn people off, you know, by talking about all that, but I really, really believe in all of it.

Um, not in a kind of spiritual sense or in a karma sense, but I just think what it does to your brain and your body. And it's not about ego. You know, I often talk about. It's like ego, imposter syndrome, see saw, and we're always trying to find this equilibrium between ego and imposter syndrome, and I've gotten good at that over the years.

I used to be really bad at it, particularly the imposter syndrome side, like I'd just get swallowed by it. But now I just look at situations and I actually make a very Level headed assessment of like, can I, or can't I do that thing? Am I the right or wrong person for that job? And often I'm the wrong person or often I can't do it.

So I either don't approach it or a delegate it to someone who can, but like Nat Geo now, you know, when they asked me back for the second one, I just was like, yeah, I can do that. Like I can, I actually can do that. It's going to be really hard. It's going to take a lot out of me. I'm not the best in the world.

If they search for another six months, they find someone better, but I can do it. To a high enough standard that they will be happy. And I visualize all the time like that. We're talking, you know, I'm probably not supposed to say this, but we're talking about Honnold three from my career perspective at the minute. 

And I'm like, yeah, bring it on. Like, you know, sign me up.  

So obviously Arctic Ascent, what else have you, what is the Alaska thing then? Are you allowed to see? Yeah, I 

can talk about that. So Alex and Tommy Caldwell, um, other world class climber, cycled from Colorado to Canada and then got a boat. I met them there.

We got a boat from Canada to Alaska, walked from the coast up to the Devil's Thumb, which was horrendous in a really good way. And then they repeated a route which had previously taken three days. They did it in, I think it was 17 hours or something like that, single day push. And it's a, it's a conservation story in lots of ways.

Um, it's in the edit right now, so I don't know what the end result will be.  I'm a cog in a machine, and my job is to direct it. I'm not the exec producer. I'm not the editor. 

So 

that's what we did there. And that, you know, that was the project I think that I'm most proud of in that sense. Because I feel like I survived Nat Geo 1, you know, Greenland.

I like got through it. I didn't fuck it up. 

But 

I didn't nail it in the way that I maybe would now. because I've got the confidence to say I can do that. I really was every day thinking they're going to catch me out any second. 

That's the imposter syndrome though, isn't it? 

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And 

I had Aldo with me, you know, Aldo Kane and I, we became quite close on that trip for lots of reasons.

And we were both new dads. We were dealing with a lot of logistical problems. Yeah. We got on really well. And Aldo was really good at Sort of hilarious and crazy to say my right hand man, because he wasn't my right hand man. But technically I was in charge of that trip. And you know, all those like wisdom and advice and experience was incredible.

Yeah. High functioning teams. That's the secret. 

Functioning team. There's a bit of a pattern with some of the teams as well. Isn't there? Like, you know, Aldo seems to be involved in everything at the minute. Isn't he? A lot of the kind of safety stuff and  some of your earlier work, uh, it was at Waldo Eddington and Leo Holden.

That seems to be a bit of a pairing as well in some of the expeditions. 

Well, I owe, I think if I had to pick one person who I owe the most to, it's Leo. Cause Leo took a chance on me when I was a kid and I did two major expeditions with Leo that went on to define my career. Waldo did both with me. He was the safety expert, taught me an unbelievable amount on those trips.

And Waldo is one of my best mates now. And then I brought him in for the. Alaska trip with Nat Geo, I was quite insistent on picking my own safety team for that job. Um, two Northern Irish mountain guides and Waldo and again, crack team, it was so good. But Waldo, I mean, I quite literally trust him with my life and do on a regular basis.

And he trusts me to make good decisions about where we're going and when, and I adore working with him because we've got this, I don't wanna use too many military analogies, but there's that, you know, they talk about that unspoken, kind of battlefield mentality. If you don't really need to talk, you just kind of look at each other in a certain way and act.

Well, Waldo and I have that. It's quite special. I really love it. 

Yeah, kind of switching lanes a little bit. Again, I was, I said to you, I was watching the house of the gods and again, for context, that's your expedition with Leo holding and, and Waldo was on that as well, wasn't he? And that was the, the climate mount. 

If I can, if I'm seeing that correctly in Guyana, that was, I mean, that was phenomenal as well. 53 kilometer trek to base camp through  jungle before you even got started. Yeah, and there was a comment in that by Waldo that kind of struck me as well. Again, jumping around a little bit, but we're talking about bravado and breaking all that, trying to break some of these stereotypes down and get rid of ego.

And he, he makes a comment at one point in that about, you know, being scared and recognizing that he's being scared in that and you're still going on with it. And I thought that is, you know, sometimes we need to embrace that a little bit more and less of the stiff upper lip because shit happens and. You know, these are scary environments a lot of the time.

They're scary, to be really blunt about it in a way that's maybe unpalatable, like they're scary environments and they kill people. I think that, and the more you do this, the list of people, you know, or know people who know who you just go, Oh, they've died. And it's really awful, but it's there now. And I've had too many moments on trips where I've gone.

Oh, this feels like it could be it if this next two meters doesn't go very well to kind of, I'm done with that shit. Not I'm done with the expeditions, but I'm done with the bravado and the ego. And I realized on Rorima that, which was 2019, that I only did that because that's what everybody else did. And I thought you were supposed to do that.

And I had this one moment on Rorima. There was a rope that I was Jumar ing up, ascending up, that was over this little rock flake and it didn't look right. And I didn't want to message up to Leo on the radio and say, can you just come down and check this because it looks a bit sketchy. Because Leo used to be my hero and now he's my mate and I didn't want him to think I was soft.

So anyway, I kind of go, well, Leo thinking I'm soft is probably better than me dying. So I'm going to just radio up. And I had enough experience at this point to look at that rope and go, I kind of know it's not safe. Like, I know.  I radioed up to Leo. He's kind of grumpy, but not in a, you know, he's like, he's good about it.

He's like, oh, for fuck's sake, right, yeah, I'm coming down. He's not grumpy with me, he's grumpy with the situation. Comes down, flakes the rope out, flicks it from behind the flake, and he goes, fucking good call, Pikey, which is what they all call me. Um, like, that was dodgy. I was like, Oh, and it kind of literally, it's weird, like it all changed in that moment.

I was like, Oh, I'm allowed to do that now. I'm allowed to say, I'm not comfortable doing this. I'm scared. This doesn't feel right. And now I do it all the time. 

Yeah, it's funny. I was talking recently to a Graham Zimmerman. Actually, and he's got, I don't know if you've read or seen, he was at Kendall actually, and it was the first time I came across him and he's put a fine line and then that he talks about something very similar and I can't remember who the person, the climber was that kind of passed it on to him, but it was about having a hundred year plan and being much more sensible as you mature and you go older and climbing daddy style.

I think they called it to not take these types of risks because. You know, if you're dead, you're not claiming you're not going on adventure. So, 

yeah, one thing I've, I've disagreed with a couple of people on my podcast about it in a gentle, kind, calm way is I really, really, and if people do like this, then all power to them, you know, we're all allowed to think differently around this stuff.

But when someone says they died doing what they love, it makes me really, really uncomfortable because. Okay. Yeah. They did die doing what they love. Like that statement isn't untrue, but are we celebrating that? Like, I don't think we should celebrate that. I think we should commiserate that, you know, better they died doing what they love than in a car crash at 35.

Okay. Sure. Maybe, or is it better? I don't know.  I think died at the age of 80, having just finished the memoir of 60 years of amazing experiences. That's what I'm gunning for. 

Yeah. 

And I, you know, tragedies happen, like they, they've happened to people I know, it might happen to me, but I am doing everything I can to make sure it doesn't, apart from quitting, 

which 

I'm not willing to do.

And I've looked into that abyss and kind of said, am I done with this? Cause I'm at the stage in my career now where I could stop. I could make documentaries about other things, and I have explored that now that I've got kids. Um, and I know it's something you maybe wanted to talk about, but I just, I don't want to stop.

It's not that I can't. I'm not addicted. I'm not addicted. I don't want to. 

Yeah. You said something. On a podcast or something about, I think you took the line from someone else. You don't want to be disingenuous or not. Your kids see you as an adventurer and they look up to you. So to not do those things is also a bit of a disservice to that as well.

And you wouldn't be honest to yourself. So you need to show people that you've got,  Convection and 

that it's, that's a Leo line. So that's another Leo line. I asked him before we climbed Mount Roraima, like how the cliche I had to ask him an interview for the film. How do you justify this? Now you've got kids and his line was, as you say, I mean, it was about passion.

He's like, I want my kids to see me living an authentic life full of passion for what I do.  And I want, and Leo said this, and I want it to be true of my kids. I want my kids to be passionate people, curious people like my wife's a musical theater soprano. So maybe both my kids will be super into theater.

Cool. That sounds great. Maybe they'll be super into ballet or croquet or, you know, knitting. I don't care as long as they feel about what they do, the way I feel about what I do. That's what I'm going for with them. 

Fantastic. Fantastic.  On that, do you ever see yourself doing anything different? 

Yeah.  

Yeah, not like I have a big plan to, but I feel like I could. It's quite a nice feeling, actually. I think in my small little world, I don't think I'm, you know, famous or anything, but I'm known in big inverted commas in my little space for adventure film, like climbing film, really. And I'm actually not that into rock climbing.

I enjoy it. I like it. It's interesting, but I don't read loads of books about it. I read much more about like conservation and. wildlife and even war journalism, current affairs, politics. I'm much more interested in those things than I am about rock climbing. Um, if you said to me, design the next 20 years, I would run Coldhouse from a founder perspective and have like an MD in place to do all the day to day, and I would.

be a part of, like an exec producer and occasional director on big, proper, high end feature films about fascinating concepts, uh, fascinating issues and people. They don't need to be limited to adventure for me anymore. I shouldn't say too much. I mean, I'm having the conversation tomorrow. I don't want to do that cryptic thing, but it's just, we haven't fully decided yet, but I'm about to start another 

podcast 

that is nothing to do with adventure with a mate.

And he's got a bit more like industry cred than me, but we get on really well. And, you know, we want to talk about masculinity. I think that's something we're both really passionate about having, he and I were both kind of cliche alpha males, like brave, strong, you know, I'm sat here, I'm bald, I've got a beard, I've got tattoos and I look like the cliche adventurer in lots of senses.

But I'm quite soft and I'm quite emotional and I'm quite in tune with my feelings. And basically to cut a long story short, I think the world needs better men. And I think that lots of this alpha male bravado bullshit comes from a place of insecurity, but also a need to feel some form of identity. And I know so many people now, and I've met a lot of them through the podcast who have been on this journey of like actually overcoming.

Their bravado and alpha male identity and becoming better well rounded men as a result of that. The adventure world is full of them. 

Mm 

hmm. And so yeah, I'd like to explore that topic. I'd like to help the world. I'd like to help men be better for the sake of their own sanity and happiness, for the sake of their partners and their kids and for the sake of the planet.

That's my soapbox moment.  

Fantastic. Uh, well, I mean, I look forward to that. What's your timeline horizon on that? Are you still conceptualizing it at the moment or are you planning? Yeah. 

Well, we're having the first today's Monday. We're having the first proper chat on Thursday, but, um, we're hoping to release it in the summer.

Yeah, fantastic. Excellent. I look forward. I mean, yeah, we need more diversification. I think even just, you know, being specific to the adventure space, it is proliferated by  white alpha male men climbing mountains and, you know, I'm not a climber. There's a lot of times that you feel like you need to be a climber to be in this space because if you've not climbed a big wall then you're not an adventurer a lot of the time and you're not beating your chest and and it's and even i'm a bit like  you know the imposter syndrome starts to get back in because i haven't done that you know it's yeah but yeah i look forward to seeing how that develops 

yeah it's funny isn't it like There's some more armchair philosophy for you, but I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but like, it's really easy for me to say because I've done that stuff, but I haven't climbed them with my hands and feet, you know, I've never like climbed El Cap by myself or anything, but I've been up a lot of big walls and I've done a lot of hard stuff and On reflection, they're not the things I'm most proud of. 

Just not, even when you look at adventures, like if you bring it right down, boil it right down to an adventure conversation, you know, we both run podcasts with adventure in the title. Like the things I'm most proud of are the things I enjoyed the most having traveled with a passport and not. The big world classes.

They're just not. 

What are some of your highlights in terms of the, the stories that you've told? Because you're just back from Bhutan as well, aren't you seeing some stuff that you were having some fun with a monk over something?  . , 

yeah. Well, that, I mean, again, and that this is, I'm really sorry to do this, but I, I can't talk about what we're doing in Bhutan.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'll get 

Undrawn quoted if I do, but I don't, I mean. Jordan, you know, like you said, but stories, well, I went to Jordan to Wadi Rum for the first time to make a PlayStation advert with Leo, and I fell in love with the place. And then I went back to make a documentary about the Bedouin climbing community there.

And now I've been back five times, totally self funded to tell the story of tribal land loss for the Bedouin in the region. And that kind of, it gives you a clue as to where I'm, like, my brain's at. Like, making PlayStation apps with Leo is really cool. Like, it's a lot of fun. Don't get me wrong, I'd do another one tomorrow.

But exploring issues like tribal land loss for the Bedouin in Wadi Rum, that's a story. And I think that's what I'm increasingly proud of. I just made a film called How to Move a Rhino, which we haven't released yet, about rhino translocation in Kenya. I'm super proud of that documentary. And I, my mate, Louis Waite, who directed it with me, we co directed it.

We shot it in two days. It's, I think it's the best day at work I've ever had, was one of those days with Louie. And we both say the same thing, you know, filming the moving right. It was like Jurassic Park, 

just 

like being not six inches from a rhino, but you know, at the point I've got my camera against the rhino's eye, like as close as I can be to get the tight shots while it's been darted and God, it's adventurous, but God, it feels purposeful.

I think that's it. If I'm being super honest with you, I'm a bit bored of telling stories of white men climbing mountains. Like, I'll keep doing it because it's interesting and I want to champion adventure for the sake of adventure to the hilt, but I think that, yeah, let me phrase it a different way. The world needs adventure.

It absolutely needs it. It's critical. I want to write a book about that, why the world needs adventure, basically. But totally personally, I've spent 15 years telling these stories. I think I've just done one too many. Yeah. It doesn't mean I'll stop, but it means I need to diversify. I want to do different things.

I think that diversification still still under that umbrella of venture. 'cause it's something I kinda want to challenge a little bit as well. Not necessarily you, but just generally at the whole space.  Adventure, it doesn't just have to be like risking your life climbing a mountain and, you know, whatever it could be, just that ability to kind of free the mind, go out and have introspection, you know, something that's a bit, like you say, like the wildlife angle, you could, you know, You know, I spoke to Ollie Pemberton not so long ago, and he was, you know, like the Ockavango Delta, somewhere that's been on my list for over a day, and hopefully I'll get there sometime, but It's like going on that and not necessarily risking your life, but just seeing these animals up close as an adventure.

It's not climbing an ice wall, you know, in Alaska necessarily, so if I can do anything through this and try and bridge that gap and bring some of those stories to life as well and encourage people so that it doesn't, Pigeonhole or can I, you know, make people think that adventure is only about going into the wilderness and climbing and risking your life and stuff like that.

So anything that we can broaden that narrative. 

Yeah. I mean, you, you know, this is what I'm about to say is your fault because you got the soapbox out for me to stand on, but, um, I blame you completely, but I've gone on too much about on my own podcast about the definition of adventure and I've stopped talking about it.

I haven't, I don't think I've mentioned it in 30 or 40 episodes, but I have Googled it. I won't pretend I haven't. So the definition of adventure, the noun, an unusual and exciting or daring experience. The verb, engage in daring or risky activity. I'm like, these definitions, exploration's even worse, but we won't go there right now.

But I could. That, that is so outdated and so old school and just speaks to the white man. It's so colonial 

bullshit, isn't it? It's so colonial, yeah. 

Nothing. The exploration one is super colonial, but the closest I can come to is I think an adventure is a journey with an unknown outcome, that's as simple as it gets, and that could be, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean leaving your house, if you're going to go on a, that's a whole different philosophical argument.

But this whole like engage in daring or risky activity, well, sure. Occasionally adventures can be risky. You might need to be daring, but you don't need to be. 

And 

I think that's the big problem we've got with adventure is it feels inaccessible  People think you've got to look like me, or, you know, handsomer version of me, like Aldo or Jay Morton, or one of those guys with nice hair.

Bastards.  

But that isn't the case. That is not what adventure is. And I go on adventures all the time with my three year old. I'm not really having an adventure, although I'd argue that the journey of parenting in that sense is adventurous. And I don't mean that in a cliche sense, like, I'm learning every day on my journey with a crazy unknown outcome there.

But we go down paths that I've run down a hundred times, and I'll say to her, what's that? And she'll say, daddy, the bears built a den. I'm like, well, it was the Cub Scouts from last week, but she doesn't need to know that.  And like, we can reframe this to anybody and anything and any place. You can be in inner city, London.

You can be in inner city, Birmingham. Like there are opportunities for adventure everywhere. 

I mean, I 

forced myself into this adventurous mindset. I'm actually screwing myself over. Cause I was going to say this with your final question, but,  um,  I deliberately force myself into adventurous scenarios in non adventurous places all the time for the kick.

And that is going to sound super stupid, but it can be going to a coffee shop that I've never been to before, and going there without Google Maps or taking away I've not known before and noticing the graffiti on the wall and the daisies that are breaking through the pavement. And like the most cliche hippie bullshit thing I can say to you in this conversation is that adventure is a mindset, not an activity.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 

Yeah, I do believe that. 

Yeah. And I mean, trying to even build my website around this, it's trying to find the strap line.  That was something I wanted to use, like, it's a state of mind, but I didn't want it to be so cliche and so, like, ugh.  But it's so true, because, I mean, what you said about the little ones, my little one's eight years old, and I take her on adventures all the time, I'm not going to risk her life.

But if I take her into the woods, you know, we were out there at the weekend, and it's like trying to find the first five flowers of the most obscure colour. And then can you name them and just going on these types of little little things just to make sure that they're outdoors and active and that we're having fun. 

But I'm not going to risk her life. I mean, I have taken her kayaking and I'm trying to teach her kayaking at that age, but there is a balance and.  It's a state of play because, you know, we forget to do that a lot as we go older and we can do that without being that white male egotistical colonial bravado kind of bullshit really.

I'm getting on my soapbox now  and it's 

good, you know, we don't need to plant flags. I think that's the thing. And I think even, you know, for those who don't have kids, I don't want to turn this into the parenting thing. Like, you know, whoever's listening to this, whatever stage you're at with your adventurous career.

You know, I think people often think people like me don't get a kick out of the little stuff anymore because we go and go up big walls with Alex Honnold. It's like, that is not the case. I went to go up a mountain in Scotland with my cousin, who's not very outdoorsy or adventurous in any sense of the word, and I had a wicked time.

We went to a mountain that I've wanted to go to for ages. For me, it was easy because I do this stuff all the time. We slept in a bothy, that blew his mind, that they exist, that there are these cabins there. We cooked on a stove, that blew his mind. We walked up a hill in the rain, the last bit was quite scrambly, he thought he was gonna die, he definitely wasn't.

But I had a really fun adventurous day out, I noticed parts of Scotland I've wanted to go see for ages. I was looking at the geology, and where the trees used to be, and how far we are from the coast, and like, How are these clouds forming in different ways and what's the weather doing? That's where my head's at after 15 years of this stuff.

His head was at, you know, over gripping on the Yeezy rock scramble because he thought he was going to die. Like we both had an adventurous day out, very 

different, 

but it was just headspace. 

Yeah, it's phenomenal. It is. And yeah, there's so many shades of grey or like levels to this, you know, one end you could have like, you know, Al Humphreys, the micro adventures, and there's a.

plethora of stuff through that all the way up to what you're done in some of these expeditions and everything in between. It's, I mean, it's all adventure and is open to everyone, you know, adaptive adventures as well, you know, it could be.  So actually on the topic of Scotland, have you done much work in Scotland in terms of expeditions, filming and stuff?

I wouldn't say expeditions, but again, I would say I haven't done any expeditions to Scotland, but I've worked there a lot. I mean, hundreds of days. And before I got into the world of work with this stuff, I spent a lot of time there when I was at college and uni. We used to just drive up there all the time.

The reason that I brought that up, I think again, we will put this up box away in a minute, but just thinking about like,  adventure again and people feeling they need to go to far flung places. And this is probably aimed at more of the audience in the UK or maybe, maybe relative anywhere, but you look at some of the world places that we have in the UK, like some of the Highlands and stuff like that.

There's some fantastic experiences there and we don't need to fly to the ends of the world. And sometimes like those real actual top end of the scale road ventures can be held in the UK, particularly in the lakes of the Lake District or. are up in, up in the Highlands. 

Let's use, I mean, let's stick to Scotland for a sec, right?

I often disappoint people, you know, it's classic, like, I meet people at my wife's works, parties, whatever, and they're like, so where's the best place you've been to? And I'm like, Scotland. They're like, haven't you been to Antarctica three times? I'm like, yeah, Scotland's better. And I, I mean it. There is nowhere better on this planet.

From the Cooling Ridge, on the Isle of Skye, when you've had a miserable day of rain, and then suddenly, whichever god exists out there decides to go, oh go on, we'll just park the clouds five meters for five minutes, and we're just going to give you these god rays, and then we're going to get rid of them again.

And you just stand there, and it blows my mind every time that happens. Just the beauty and the majesty of the place.  And I, I've got my views, like lots of people on, you know, the way these landscapes would look without human interference, without the tree felling and the sheep farms and stuff. And there's a beauty to those too, but I just find this wild, rugged landscapes appeal to me so much.

In Scotland, I mean, there are parts of Scotland, there's a place at the bottom of St. John's Head, which is the tallest sea cliff in Britain. A significantly more people have stood on top of Everest and have stood on the beach at the bottom of St John's Head. You don't need rope skills to get down there, it's quite an adventurous descent, like you're just hand over hand on elephant grass and you don't want to let go, but that's there.

Sulvan, the mountain Sulvan up in Sutherland in the northwest, I mean it's my favorite mountain in the world. You know, I've worked a lot in the Alps and the Alps is beautiful and lots of people adore it, but there's no lifts in Scotland. I mean, there are, but not, you know, there's not many. There's no lifts in the Northwest and like the trek to get to Solvang, you know, walking down this track and there's the Bothy there and there's this mountain in front of you and I'll stop, but I could wax lyrical on this for hours.

Like, I just think it's so spectacular and so beautiful. And I know that trains cost a lot of money these days. But like, the idea of getting the sleeper train from London, I've done it a few times for work, and you just go to sleep, you wake up in Fort William, and you go, 

Oh, I'm 

in the Highlands.  When someone picks you off, or you meet a mate, I mean, Adam Rajan, who I mentioned earlier, he just drives from Glasgow up to the middle of nowhere now and does it for the day.

Final point. On Scotland. So Dave McLeod, one of the best climbers in the world, he's climbed all over the world. And he's Glaswegian, I think, originally Glaswegian, yeah. And Dave's basically committed to not going overseas anymore. And he now just does first ascents in Scotland. And he just, I mean, he does, I don't know how many he does a year, but it's a lot.

And he's got a little dinghy, and he just goes around the locks and finds new crags. And there is so much unclimbed rock in Scotland. 

Wow. 

So even if you're elite, like Dave, which most people aren't, there's so much to do. Wow. Yeah, it's unbelievable. 

Yeah, I love that idea of just taking a pack raft on and just heading out for a few weeks and exploring some of those areas.

Totally. Fantastic, fantastic. So going back, yeah, because I said the three expeditions actually. I wanted to touch a little bit on Mount Roraima again and what just that experience in terms of climbing that because I think what I wanted to kind of surface firstly to get people to go and watch that if they haven't seen that I think it's a fantastic uh it's only 45 minutes it's quite it's kind of relatively short movie but it's quite punchy you know it's a great short impactful story I think more so because of the work that you've done with the local gate as well.

And the fact that the two of them joined you on that expedition as well and were ultimately granted a medal of honour by the Guyanese government, weren't they? 

Yeah. 

Yeah. How did that come about? I mean, that's a phenomenal thing. I think, you know, to put it into context, you trekked 53 kilometres to the base camp and then you went up 2000 feet of what was like jungle and rock on that with snakes, spiders and all sorts of nonsense coming out the wall.

Yeah. How did that story come to be? 

Well, again, I mean, Leo holding deserves all the credit, um, and Leo's credited as a producer on that film and is in so many ways, Leo's brilliant to work with when you're working in remote locations with film, you know, there were two of us there to document it, which is nothing, a tiny, tiny, tiny crew to make a feature film, but Leo's idea, I mean, he'd always wanted to climb Mount Roraima for, for those of you who don't know what it looks like, which is probably most people, if you've seen up the Disney Pixar film, so where are they going up?

That landscape, it's based on Mount Roraima. It's also the mountain that Arthur Conan Doyle wrote The Lost Worlds about. So The Lost Worlds is based on top of Mount Roraima. We spent quite a lot of time looking for pterodactyls, but we didn't see any. But Leo, I think he gets, he just, he doesn't really get the recognition he deserves, Leo.

It really annoys me. Probably annoys him a lot more, but what he wanted to do with that trip was this, like, anti colonial style to expedition climbing. So, one of Leo's mentors was Doug Scott, who was very vocal about the way that we use and misuse porters and sherpas in the high mountains. Um, the line Leo uses, which I think is on the poster for the film, I can't remember, is, Without them, we can't get to the bottom, and without us, they can't get to the top.

And it's this whole idea of, you know, the Akawai are the people who live, it's the Amazon rainforest. It's the edge of the Amazon below Mount Roraima, it's their sacred mountain. And they know that jungle, that rainforest very, very, very well, obviously. And Waldo knows rainforest very well, but not like they do. 

Waldo doesn't know that rainforest as well as they do. So we needed, we had an unbelievable amount of gear. And I'll cut this story short, but, um, we threw most of it out of a plane with parachutes on, which got cut from the movie, which is kind of a tragedy. We did film it and it all landed at the base of the wall.

But then we had to trek through the jungle to get there. There's nowhere to land. So we walked from the nearest airstrip with what was around 20 porters, local porters. Leo paid them significantly more than the standard rate. And the idea was always, we didn't tell them at the start, Um, for various reasons that I can go into another day, that there's going to be the opportunity for some of them to climb with us.

And most of the porters got to base camp, which is at sort of the edge of the forest where the forest meets the rock. And then most of them went home, but six high altitude style porters, even though it's not high altitude, stayed with us to help ferry loads from the base camp up to the bottom of the wall, which is this like 60 degree slime forest.

It's honestly, it's like, not exaggeration, it's like primordial slime. Like from a Ghostbusters movie, and Waldo did this insane job of rigging ropes through this stuff. Then we spent a few days just hiking loads, kind of jumeying up, scrambling, climbing. They came with us, and then at the bottom of the wall, Leo said, We've got two spare harnesses and two spare kits, does anybody want to come with us?

And two of the porters, the two we thought would want to come, said yes. So, next thing you know, everybody else buggers off home, and Waldo teaches these two Akawayo dudes, Troy and Edward, how to climb a big wall at the bottom of a big wall in remote part of the Amazon rainforest, how to do more ropes, how to pass knots, how to traverse.

I mean, it's stuff that like you should not be learning in that environment. Waldo is one of the best in the world, if not the best in the world at this stuff, literally the best in the world. And, um, they did, you know, spoiler alert, but they did come up that wall with us. And I just love this sentiment that, you know, historically.

Basically every expedition that's ever happened, with the exception of kind of the Sherpa climber relationship in some of the early Everest expeditions, but even those relationships were quite colonial. What we had here was, you know, these guys were our guides to get to the bottom of this wall. And we, not me, but our team were the guides to get them to the top.

And they were an amazing company. You know, they sang songs while they were Jumaring and they sang during breakfast and, you know, seeing their faces. Sleeping in a portaledge is an amazing thing for anyone to experience, but seeing these guys wake up in a portaledge dangling off a skinny cord on their sacred mountain watching the sunrise over the place they've called home for their entire lives in this forest.

It's an unbelievable experience. 

Fantastic. 

And they got helicoptered off the summit, which was a bit of a trip as well. 

Oh, I did it. Oh, wow. Fantastic. It was amazing. You can see their, you see their faces alive when they're on the ledge and stuff. It's brilliant. 

Yeah. It's the last shot of the film. For those of my mind, it's so beautiful.

I didn't shoot it so I can say that.  It was Dan Howard, the cameraman with me. I was helping on the wall to actually like get all the bags to the top and stuff like that. And Edward, the older guy, Akawayo guy, he'd summited, he'd taken his top off and he was just stood on the edge of the mountain looking out over the rainforest.

And it was just this moment where he, as climbers do, And he, he's never seen climbers do this, which is why it blew my mind. He just puts his hands up and starts like fake climbing, practicing moves. And I looked at this shot and I was like, is he imagining future climbs that he's going to do in this area?

And then we used it as the last shot of the movie. It's this idea, you know, there he is. looking out over this place he calls home and maybe there's more for him. 

Above the clouds. It's it was phenomenal. Yeah. And 

as you say, they were then given, I think, medals of honor or something like that from the Guyanese government.

Yeah. What's amazing about that as well, is there is an issue with kind of semi racism in that country around the people that live in the cities. Not all obviously, but people look down on these people that live in the Amazon rainforest. They call them the bog people. Um, they're kind of a lesser people.

And the idea that these two Akawayo were kind of honoured and acknowledged with these high end medals of honour for climbing this mountain was very, very, very special.  

It's amazing when things like that are not just the adventure and, you know, you know, the likes of the climbers and stuff in it, but when there's, you know,  whether it's conservation science or the indigenous people or whatever it is, the cultural awareness, it's a perfect, uh, it's a perfect package.

It's amazing. 

Yeah. 

Excellent. So couple of things. So I've got to my own closing traditions, but before I come to them, I wanted to ask three questions. What scares you? 

Oh, I wasn't expecting this tonight. Well, for those who don't know what you're doing now is you're taking my final two questions from Mr.

Tucker. What scares me?  People always pause and think, and I always leave them to linger. 

And pondering is a good thing. 

You know, my honest answer is myself. Like.  I could give you all the cliches that I've heard a hundred times, like something happening to my kids, obviously, death, obviously, the state of the natural world and apathy around the world, of course, but the thing that scares me is myself.

And because I've had a rough time in my late twenties and had therapy and all that stuff, I'm scared of the things I'm capable of. And I'm scared of some of, this is really, you know, honest.  I'm scared of some of my thoughts. And I think we're defined by our actions, not our thoughts. And  I work really hard to be a good, decent person.

Who adds more to the world than they take away. That is not my natural state. That takes effort and work. So I'm scared of getting that wrong.  And I think about it every day. 

Thank you for sharing that.  What brings you hope?  

My kids.  No, I'm a very, very optimistic person.  Oh, I don't want to give you a cliche.

What brings me hope? Like the little things, like little, not just little acts of kindness, which is another cliche, but like the little things. I do quite a lot of meditation, and I slow down a lot consciously, and  little things give me hope, like noticing the first daffodils of spring, or seeing a dad playing a silly game with a kid in an airport, not thinking anybody's watching. 

Or hearing my wife play piano when she thinks I'm out mowing the lawn. And, you know, what brings me hope? Of course, you know, all of these big, amazing people doing big, amazing things brings me hope amidst the chaos and the crises that we're in. But I just think humans are quite special critters. Like, we're capable of really, really bad, damaging things.

But largely, I think that human beings are a force for good. And I find a lot of hope in other people and the people around me. And when I'm at my worst,  whether that's behaving at my worst or at my worst in terms of mental health, it's always, always other people who improve that and make that better, it's not me.

Fantastic. Excellent. 

Sunset's on the other sky. They bring me hope. 

Yeah. Oh, well, fantastic. Fantastic. There's nothing like a Scottish sunset. There really, there really isn't. I'm going a little bit parochial, but hey ho.  I'm going to ask you one other question, and I'm going to also ask if you know where it's from.

And for anyone that's listening, I'm stealing Matt's format quite crudely here.  Where do you belong to?  

Do you? I know who asked me that question. I know why you  asked me that question. I know you're about to interview him. I loved my conversation with Ian. For anyone wanting to listen to the adventure podcast, Ian Finch is a good place to start actually.

Yes, I agree. Cause I was listening to it in preparation for my session with Ian and honestly, I started re listening to it again, so I'm like 20 minutes into it again cause it's a fantastic conversation. So yes, I'll get that listed, the adventure podcast with Matt Pycroft and Ian Finch.  

Yeah. Cause we were sat in the room next door to the one I'm in now.

He came to my house and sat at my dining table and I think, I can't remember, you correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't listened to it back, but I said to him, where are you from?  And he said, that's the wrong question. The right question is where do you belong to? And I just, it blew my mind because I'm, you know, born in Grimsby, brought up near Skegness, places I haven't been back to genuinely since I was 16.

There's nothing there for me. My parents don't live there and I do not belong to those places. I'm from them, but that means nothing to me. Nothing.  Where do I belong to? Is a question I ponder all the time because I don't have a good answer. So my cliche answer is wherever my family are. So we're quite nomadic.

I'm moving to London in a couple of weeks because of my wife's work, but we've lived in Sheffield, I've lived in the Lake District, I'm often on the road. My wife tours for work. We go week to week, month to month in different Airbnbs with the kids. I guess my honest answer is wherever my kids are, my wife is.

But, I'm also quite good at being nomadic, I really enjoy, like being in Bhutan, it didn't unsettle me. Um, I don't know, where do I belong to? Planet Earth, maybe?  That's another cliche answer for you. Right now, I'm in Suffolk, and Suffolk, for those who don't know, is, you know, South East England, it's one of the flattest counties in England.

My mum is here. And my mad old aunt is here who listens to my podcast.  Sorry, my old aunt. And I've got family buried in graveyards here as far back as the 17th century. And we moved here after lockdown because we had kids to be close to parents. Katie's, my wife's parents are here. And despite it having nothing in terms of hills or rivers or anything like that, I feel so at home here.

And I think it's because of my family. And the heritage and the legacy, which is something I think I've sought and craved, and I envy people who have it. You know, I'm from Dorset, I love Dorset, all my mates are in Dorset, that kind of thing. I don't have that. Suffolk's the closest place I've ever found that I feel at home.

So, despite the fact I'm leaving in a week or two. This is where we'll come back to. The plan is to come back here. I do feel like I belong here. 

Fantastic. And thank you for those permitting me to stay in your format. And, and also you weren't expecting that. I didn't tell you we're going to go to ask them.

So.  Hopefully that wasn't too painful. 

I know. I enjoy it.  Good question. Ian Finch. Yeah, 

yeah, exactly. And I'm buzzing to speak to tomorrow actually. So now my two closing traditions. So I'm saying that like I'm a veteran,  but they are the call to adventure, which is a recommendation that a suggestion from you, the guests to listeners to get out and do something adventurous and then a paid forward suggestion.

And so. A call to adventure, Matt, what would you recommend?  

So I actually did rehearse this because you sent me this beforehand, but I'm going to mix it up. So I think my call to adventure is twofold. One is the whole state of mind thing. I won't repeat it in detail, but like my call to adventure is you do not need a passport or a plane ticket to have an amazing adventure.

Al Humphries is a perfect example of this, but I also don't want to go down the micro adventures cliche. I want to champion the state of mind. So. Self help style ending, you know, go for a walk in a place, you know, but switch your brain up, start noticing things. It's that meditative mindset. What are five things you can notice there that you've not seen before?

What does it smell like? What does it look like? What does it feel like? Would it feel the same in a month? Go back there in six months. What's different? Like that's adventure for me.  And you can find that absolutely anywhere. But equally, I think this whole idea of permission for adventure is something I luckily managed to just completely smash through in terms of the glass ceiling.

Like you do not need permission to be a rock climber. Go rock climbing. You do not need permission to do a first ascent. There are some very, very, very easy first ascents to be bagged in Scotland. Someone needs to do them. It doesn't need to be Dave McLeod. Yeah, I'll end that bit there. It's mindset. Then if you want somewhere specific, I'm going to say it again, Wadi Rum in Jordan.

So one of the most interesting, adventurous, cultural experiences I've ever had. And you don't need to have the expedition skill set to go there. You fly to Jordan. You take a three hour taxi. You arrive in Rum Village, you know, Lawrence of Arabia, all of that colonial malarkey.  A Bedouin guide will take you out into the desert in a 4x4, will set you up with a remote camp, which means a mattress on the sand, and a Spongebob Squarepants blanket, and they'll feed you, and they'll take you, and they'll climb all the old Bedouin routes, and when I say climb I mean basically walk and scramble, the old Bedouin hunting routes in the mountains, and if you've seen Dune, or The Martian, or Star Wars, This is where they film sandy space scenes because of how it looks.

It is spectacular as a landscape, and the Bedouin are this light. Just wonderful. Cheeky people. I go once a year now and I love it. I'm going to take my kids as soon as they're old enough, but that would be my go here. Do that. 

Fantastic. Fantastic. And then finally, a pay it forward suggestion. So a charity, a worthy cause, anything to get, raise awareness of something that's important to you and get people Spreading the word and contributing, what would you say is a pay it forward 

suggestion?

Well, again, you can have two. So my first one is 1 percent for the planet. So it's a kind of a, I love it because it's a coverall. I've been a 1 percent for the planet member for seven or eight years. And you basically commit legally to donating 1 percent of your turnover to the planet. You can join as a personal member. 

So if you earn the average salary in Britain, Committing to 1 percent for the planet is the equivalent of giving up one flat white a week. And with 1 percent for the planet, half of your 1 percent can be an in kind donation of time. So at Coldhouse, we're partnering with Moors for the Future and we go out on like team days to go and see the places and plant trees and do cleanups.

And, you know, we've donated enough money to have actually funded projects. And you can, through 1 percent they've got all these verified vetted charities. So whether you're into pandas or rocks or oceans or polar bears or whatever you might be into, they'll help you find somewhere and something that you can donate your money to.

And it's this, rather than this one off, you know, once a month or going out to Africa to build toilets or wells, it's like this tangible thing you're committing to, because it's a lifestyle choice. It's constant. And I, we find quite a lot of power in that as a company, 1 percent for the planet. I feel like I want to live in a world where not donating 1 percent for the planet is weird.

It feels like a tax. Like if you use the outdoors. Here's your car parking style tax to say, I use this place and I'm going to protect it by donating 1 percent of my income. And for us, you know, pandas are all good if you want to do pandas, but the fact that Moors for the Future, protecting peat bogs on our doorstep, when we go out to these places to run or cycle or whatever we do there, We feel like we've got a sense of stewardship over that place and in a world that we feel like is on fire, it's a very, very nice thing to walk those paths and look at that landscape and think we're doing something to protect it.

With that in mind, my final point, I'm taking liberties here is, and I am going to advocate for this and I'm going to say it bluntly, is go trespassing. So I'm a big believer in the right to roam movement and the right to roam campaign. Scotland have got it right. The rest of the UK have got it wrong. It's easy for a bald, tattooed, bearded man to go trespassing because we don't feel as confronted by angry farmers.

But I've never had a bad experience. Um, and I trespass every week. Um, civil trespass, you know, it's, it's a political act. It's an act that I'd fully advocate. And if this makes you feel uncomfortable, please go and read the book of trespass by Nick Hayes. And Nick will do a much better job than me of explaining why you should trespass. 

If my comment makes you angry, feel free to email me, um, or go and read the book of trespass by Nick Hayes and he'll explain why I'm right.  We have one of the most diminished accesses to nature on the planet as a country, as a nation, um, apart from Scotland. And, you know, just saying Labour have pledged to bring in a Scottish style right to Rome. 

So, um, have they across the uk. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. 

Wow. 

As I understand it. Yeah. Don't, you know, fact check. That might be fake news, but  yeah. That's it. 

Fantastic 

soap. 

Yeah. 

Soapbox over. 

Take take liberties all day though. Those are fantastic suggestions and it still blows my mind. It, the right to Rome thing has came up because I did, I did speak to Alistair Humphreys not so long ago as well, and he brought that up.

Uh, he's a big advocate of that. I just can't believe that. The difference between Scotland and England, you know,  and the laws are so, so different.  

There is now nowhere in England you can wild camp. So if you decide to go and camp on  a fell side in the Lake District, you are committing a crime. 

Yeah.  

It's  Capitalism gone mad.

It's crazy. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's the old aristocracy. Yeah. 

Yeah. Mark, this has been fantastic. It's, I'm still in a little bit of shock and awe and pinch me moment that we're having this conversation. So I do thank you for inspiring me and the show and everything that you're doing through cold house and adventure podcast.

It's yeah, just keep at it please. Cause it's fantastic. It really is. 

Yeah. Thank you. It means a lot. I will. I'll try my best. Yeah. 

And if you're diversifying by all means, but yeah, keep at the adventure podcast. It's, uh, it's as phenomenal. 

Yeah. I won't stop. I have my moment, but I won't stop. Yeah. Thanks. And sorry to you and everyone else.

This wasn't full of more rip roaring adventure stories, but 

you know, I  

think 

we'll, uh, hopefully do something again in future because, uh, no, this has been. I don't want to sound cliche, adventure being a state of mind. We're kind of navigating some of the kind of more philosophical armchair, you know, adventures as you coined it, which I think is important.

You know, we want to try and break down barriers and think about things and reframe things a little bit differently as well. So I'm all for that as well. 

Yeah, I think that's it. I suppose my closing parting shot, if I'm allowed one, is.  You know, to contradict myself deliberately, uh, because adventure is a state of mind and you can find it on your doorstep, that's amazing.

You can go and have these adventurous experiences. But I also think, if there's a little part of you lying dormant in the back of your brain that says, I want to go on an expedition, then do. Because you can. I think that's the other point, is like, this little old boy from Grimsby who was badly bullied at school.

now climbs mountains with Alex Honnold and that's rad, you know, and that I am not special and I really, really mean that. Um, I just got lucky and I tried really hard.  

I mean, in a bit of a digression, but tangentially linked, I've just roped 10 mates or 9, 10, including me, into going to a mini expedition in June, actually, and they, they are, Not adventurous at all. 

And yeah, so we're going kayaking while camping on some of the islands on the west coast. So that's going to be fun. But if we can get them and anyone else just thinking this way and living a little bit differently, then great. We're doing our job.  

We are. Well, thank you mate. 

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. For the show notes and further information, please visit adventurediaries. com slash podcast. And finally, we hope to have inspired you to take action and plan your next adventure, big or small, because sometimes we all need a little adventure to cleanse that bitter taste of life from the soul.

Until next time, have fun and keep paying it forward.