Saving Brazil's Jaguars — with Letícia Benavalli

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Chris sits down with Brazilian conservation biologist Letícia Benavalli to talk about her work protecting jaguars in the Cerrado — one of the world's most biodiverse yet overlooked biomes. From growing up in São Paulo to founding the Pro Onça Institute, Letícia shares how a childhood fascination with nature led her to track some of the rarest cats on the planet, including melanistic (black) jaguars. She also opens up about the importance of community-led conservation, empowering women and young people in rural Brazil, and her ambition to create wildlife corridors connecting isolated jaguar populations across biomes.

Chapters

00:00 Tracking Melanistic Jaguars
04:43 From City Life to Conservation Biologist
07:10 The Cerrado: Saving Brazil's Biodiverse Savanna
14:47 Learnings from Oxford University & African Wild
22:53 Rare Black Jaguar Encounter in the Wild
27:07 Survival Story: Lost Alone in the Brazilian Jungle
36:38 Jaguar Hunting Threats & Landowner Conflicts
40:58 Pro Onça Institute: Conservation & Community Empowerment
47:02 Women Leadership in Ecotourism
1:00 Urban Jaguars in Brasília National Park
1:06 Rolex Explorers Club Grant & Future Goals
1:14 Call to Adventure: Climbing Brazil's Serra do Cipó

Guest Bio

Letícia Benavalli is a conservation biologist and founder of the Onça Institute (Instituto Onça), an NGO dedicated to jaguar conservation in Brazil's Cerrado and Atlantic Forest. She has worked across multiple Brazilian biomes — including the Pantanal, Caatinga, and Amazon — studying large carnivores and developing community-based conservation programmes. Letícia is a Rolex/Explorers Club grant recipient and a member of the IUCN's Wildlife Conservation and Protected Areas group. She presented her research at the Explorers Club in New York and is preparing a PhD focused on jaguar density, diet, and the genetics of melanistic jaguars in the Cerrado.

Key Topics Discussed

1. Growing up in São Paulo & finding conservation — How a city kid from Latin America's largest metropolis ended up dedicating her life to wildlife, sparked by a childhood visit to the zoo and a love of nature documentaries.
2. The Cerrado: Brazil's forgotten biome — Why this vast savanna is critically important for biodiversity but receives far less attention and protection than the Amazon or Pantanal.
3. Black jaguars and the Onça Institute — Letícia's face-to-face encounter with a wild melanistic jaguar, the rare genetics behind black colouration, and the founding mission of her NGO to connect isolated jaguar populations.
4. Community-led conservation & empowering women — Why conservation cannot succeed without involving local and rural communities, particularly women and young people, and how traditional knowledge strengthens scientific work.
5. The Rolex/Explorers Club grant & global ambitions — Winning the grant, presenti

Transcript

Transcript — Saving Brazil's Jaguars — with Letícia Benavalli

[00:00:00] Tracking Melanistic Jaguars

Letícia Benavalli: We have a high density of melanistic Jaguars there — black Jaguars. And this by itself is quite impressive and rare, because only 10% of Jaguars are black melanistic. And then I was studying this population of black Jaguars in this park. And then around 5:30, I was just checking the cameras, doing the monitoring that I used to do. And then, to my surprise, I was there checking the camera and the Jaguar just appeared in front of me. And I looked at it and I was like, "Oh my gosh — the black Jaguar, in the wild." And I know what I was supposed to do. And I was just like — I cannot stare that much either, but I just — it was staring at me, and I said, "I'm gonna stare right back." And then it was like a moment where our eyes crossed paths.

So we trained those women to become leaders in conservation. And this is what's happening — they are starting their own ventures and receiving their first clients from Europe, from the US, to come and see — like, for example here, it's birds in the Cerrado, which is also really important. Because people used to come to Brazil for the Atlantic Forest or the Amazon or the Pantanal, even though we have a really high biodiversity of birds here. So they don't know that we can see birds. And we are starting to use this as well. And not only are we empowering those women, but we are actually involving the rural youth to understand their role as leaders in conservation. Because...

[Intro Voice]: Welcome to the Adventure Diaries podcast, where we share tales of adventure, connection, and exploration — from the smallest of creators to the larger-than-life adventurers. We hope their stories inspire you to go create your own extraordinary adventures. And now your host, Chris Watson.

[00:02:00] Introduction

Chris Watson: Welcome to another episode of The Adventure Diaries. Today we're joined by Letícia Benavalli. Letícia is a Brazilian conservation biologist and the founder of the Pro Onça Institute — an NGO that is working hard to protect Jaguars and restore their habitat across the Cerrado in Brazil, in one of the world's most biodiverse and most threatened savannas. Letícia has spent the last 11 years working deep in Brazil's wildest landscapes, studying a species that most people will never see, and fighting to save a biome that most people have never heard of.

And in today's episode, we explore what it takes to track these black Jaguars through landscapes where fewer than 5% of the land is protected. We also discuss what it's like getting lost in the Cerrado with limited supplies, and what it's like to come face to face with a wild melanistic Jaguar in a park where nobody knew they still existed. And we touch on a discovery in Brazil's urban national park that could change everything for Jaguar conservation in Brazil.

Along the way, Letícia has studied at Oxford, won a Rolex Explorers Club grant, and is now building wildlife corridors, training rural women as conservation leaders, and fighting to reconnect Jaguar populations that are on the edge of local extinction.

So please settle in and enjoy this fantastic conversation with Letícia Benavalli.

Letícia Benavalli, welcome to the Adventure Diaries. How are you?

Letícia Benavalli: I'm feeling great. What about you?

[00:04:43] From City Life to Conservation Biologist

Chris Watson: Excellent. No, I'm excited to have you on today, and I genuinely mean that — as we were just saying, having looked through your CV as well, I can't believe it. I mean, it's probably one of the most impressive CVs from a conservation perspective that I've seen. And there are a lot of things in there that I didn't have on the agenda for today. So yeah, it's highly impressive, and I'm sure that the listeners and viewers are going to take a lot of fantastic stuff away today, Letícia. With that said, to frame up today, I really want to understand yourself — obviously a lot of the work that you're doing in the world of conservation, some of the projects you're working on, and particularly the work through your Pro Onça Institute in Brazil, the work with large carnivores, particularly the Jaguar. But that rambling aside, and before we start, I want to bring it right back to your roots in Brazil. Your upbringing in São Paulo — I believe that is where you originate from?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, São Paulo. Yeah.

Chris Watson: Yeah. So São Paulo — is that more of a metropolitan city than the kind of wildlife you're used to?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, actually, São Paulo is the largest city in Latin America. So I mean, it's quite odd if you think about how I ended up working in conservation — in Jaguar conservation.

Chris Watson: Yeah. So exactly that — how do you go from the bright lights of São Paulo to the Cerrado? Am I pronouncing that right?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, Cerrado. Yeah.

Chris Watson: Cerrado.

Letícia Benavalli: Well, São Paulo is in the Atlantic Forest, and today we have Atlantic Forest meeting the Cerrado — how the two systems meet at the edge of Brazil. And I remember that I was a little girl and I needed to catch two buses to go to school. And, you know, I was just sitting there watching the landscape, and I thought to myself, "I don't believe that life is about this — there must be something different to life. I must be connected to nature." I would like to see people thriving in their lives instead of waking up early, going to work, and coming back home late at night. And then I always questioned myself about how life was supposed to go. And I always had this curiosity about life. That's how I ended up doing biology. So I ended up going from seeing birds and insects in the middle of the city, to going to the middle of the jungle and studying Jaguars.

Chris Watson: Yeah. What age were you the first time you experienced the jungle in Brazil?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, I was older. It was 19 — the first time I was in the jungle, in the same area that we did fieldwork in, in the Cerrado. Yeah, I was 19.

Chris Watson: Yeah. And to bring that to life for some people who may not understand — people are very familiar with the Amazon of course, or maybe the Pantanal. But if we talk about the Cerrado for a little bit — it's one of the largest, most biodiverse savannas on the planet, isn't it?

[00:07:10] The Cerrado: Saving Brazil's Biodiverse Savanna

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, the Cerrado is the most biodiverse savanna in the world — even more biodiverse than the African savannas. And it's quite endangered, because we are losing stretches of native vegetation to agriculture, and to fires that are being caused by humans. And it's absurd — the amount of native species that we are losing because of deforestation. And the Cerrado is also really important in Brazil because it is actually the place we call the "water birthplace" — because, for example, all the water that we see in the Amazon Forest, most of it is able to be there because of the Cerrado. It's like the cloud-maker of it. So it is actually really important.

Chris Watson: I mean, you touched on some important points there. I think when doing my research, I've seen that deforestation in the Cerrado is at almost three times the rate of the Amazon. So it's quite a significant threat.

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. It's something we need to address urgently.

Chris Watson: Yeah. So, rolling back a little bit, Letícia — why the Jaguar? Let's just get into it. What was your fascination with the Jaguar?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, well, I used to study an animal called a sagui [marmoset], and I used to study those animals in Ubatuba, which is a coastal area of the São Paulo state. And I also went to Antarctica — so I went to Antarctica for the first time, where I got my first field trip. It was really important for me, because it was my first time outside the city. I was quite lucky, I would say.

Chris Watson: Wow.

Letícia Benavalli: And I was there doing my fieldwork, minding my own business. And then I saw this researcher, and everything that he was doing, for me, was like — amazing. I said, "Oh my God, I need to do that. I need to work with species that give me this kind of excitement." And then I said, okay — which animal would I like to study instead of a sagui? That is amazing, by the way, as well — they are the only animals able to produce a certain compound, something similar to what we also have in plants. But then I remembered something really special for me, which was this: I used to watch nature documentaries with my father, and I used to watch lions in Africa — those landscapes — and I said, "Okay, I need to study Jaguars, because they are the largest carnivores in Brazil." And then I changed my university. I changed my whole life, almost — because I used to live in São Paulo at this stage of my life. And then I said, "Okay, I need to turn my life upside down and choose the Jaguar." And then I went.

Chris Watson: Can I ask a quick favour? If you are enjoying the Adventure Diaries podcast, could I ask that you take the time to click that subscribe or follow button? And if you're feeling extra generous, a written review or a star rating on your platform of choice would be greatly appreciated. Now let's get back to the episode. Thank you.

Letícia Benavalli: During my undergraduate studies, I was studying biochemistry, and now I study mainly ecology — so it's really different. And I was part of this biochemistry lab. The professor — she told me, "You have the chance to study this and this. What would you like to do?" And I said, "Okay, if I have the chance to go to Antarctica, to go into the field, that's what I want to do" — because I always had this curiosity about life. I'm sure that there are a lot of things that I need to know and would like to know. And then she gave me this opportunity.

Chris Watson: What was your experience like in Antarctica? Coming from the climate of Brazil to that?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. It was the first time that I actually saw what being a biologist means in practice, because I came from São Paulo. I used to study in public schools, so everyone says that you need to study hard to get somewhere in life. And for me, as a young person, I was like, "I don't need that. I'm gonna do something else. I'm gonna be a football player. I'm gonna be a volleyball player." And then it was the first time that I actually saw my life changing because of biology, because of conservation, because of that same curiosity I had before about understanding how life itself works. Antarctica was really amazing. It was quite difficult because it was my first time speaking English — which is a really difficult language for me — and I had no prior training, but I got to know a lot of good people. People there taught me a lot about what science is, about what life is, what life could be for a researcher. So I was really grateful.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Well, firstly, your English is excellent — it's arguably better than mine as a Scotsman! So how did you learn English? Was it not part of your curriculum at school?

Letícia Benavalli: No, no. I think now they have that in schools, but while I was growing up, I didn't. You know the series Friends? I learned from Friends — and a lot of music.

Chris Watson: Oh, excellent. That's wonderful. So, kind of drifting a little bit — in terms of your studies then, penny-drop moment in Antarctica, seeing the possibilities — how did your academic path unfold? Did you have to change vocations essentially, and change paths?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. After Antarctica, what I did was apply to another university — the Federal University of [Minas Gerais] — which is in another state. So as you can see, I started travelling at that moment in my life, and then I went to Minas Gerais. And there is a professor there — her name is Natalia [Fragoso], and she was my advisor all the way through to my master's degree. And she is the head of the lab I used to work in, which is called the Ecology of Large Mammals Lab. And I was able to start my path with Jaguars — with medium and large mammals. And then I was able to travel all over Brazil with the lab, through volunteer work and other internships that I did.

Chris Watson: Yeah. And did I read correctly that you went to Oxford as well? Did you come to the UK to study at Oxford's Wildlife Conservation Research Unit?

[00:14:47] Learnings from Oxford University & African Wildlife

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. Yes. So what happened is that during my undergraduate studies I was really interested in the third sector — in turning back everything that I learned in academia to society. So I was really interested in NGOs and all the charitable foundations, and how to work with them. And then I started my master's degree, and with my master's degree I studied Jaguars across the whole of Brazil. And I won an award called the Green Talent, which was going to take me to Germany — but I was supposed to go to Germany at the end of the following year. So I still had the whole beginning of that year to do something else. And I decided to apply to a programme at Oxford. They have this post-diploma fellowship that is — I wouldn't say it's exactly a master's programme, but in a concentrated way — we had six to eight months, we were taught what we wanted and gained skills. And it was really impressive and amazing. And for me, coming from São Paulo, having been born in a poor neighbourhood — Oxford and Harvard and all of that was supposed to be something out of reach for me, something I would never achieve. But then when I received the email saying that I was able to join them with a full scholarship, I said, "My whole life is going to change." And then I went to Oxford, and it was the first time that I was living with a lot of people — because I had been living alone since I was 17. And I was with people from different nationalities from all over the world. And it was really amazing for me to understand what they were doing, and it was the first time I actually saw how I could expand and push beyond my previous limits.

Chris Watson: Yeah. And I think on that — I think, you know, certainly from the industry, they kind of see you as a passionate, empathetic, new generation of conservationist — which must be quite nice to see and hear, Letícia. And no doubt all these cultural experiences are part of that as well.

Letícia Benavalli: Yes.

Chris Watson: What did you learn at Oxford in terms of application to the conservation work that you're doing back home? How did that study help?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it helped me a lot, because Oxford opened my mind. I used to think that everything was so far away — like different realities — and Oxford actually opened my mind to say, "Hey, you just need to try. I mean, you have the theory, you know how to analyse your data, you know how to write a proposal — you just need to go for it." And then it opened my mind in the sense that instead of going and working for others, for other organisations, for other companies, I decided to create something that I believe in — something related to the ethic and philosophy that I want in my life. And then I started fundraising for my NGO. And actually, Oxford opened another door for me, because with Oxford I won another scholarship after that — I was one of the top scholars in my cohort. And with that I was able to travel across Spain. And then I went to do another internship. And with that internship, I went to another one. And then I was able to go to Africa at the end of all that. And then it was the first time that I became really interested in lions and leopards — another set of animals I feel passionate about, because I love big cats. That's my thing.

Chris Watson: Yeah.

Letícia Benavalli: And, you know, just being able to meet all these people, to understand how we can put conservation into practice on the ground and bring back everything that we learn to society — to the species that we want to conserve — it was the first time that I said, "Okay, I'm going to do it." And then I decided to come back to Brazil.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Excellent. What was Africa like then? Sorry, let me ask a different question — how much travel had you done before, outside of Brazil, before you came to Europe and then Africa?

Letícia Benavalli: Oh, no — I had been to China and to Egypt, and that was all.

Chris Watson: Yeah.

Letícia Benavalli: And both of those were for studies as well. I went to the World Youth Forum in Egypt, because I was one of the Brazilian delegates to talk about climate change and what Brazil was doing to mitigate climate change.

Chris Watson: Fantastic. Not much then — but you're making up for it now! What was your Africa experience like in terms of big cats and your experiences?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, Africa — for me, of course, if you want to work with big cats, it's like the dream of everybody. Even if you don't want to work with big cats, I would say that most people would like to watch the great African wildlife, right? It's really impressive. And for me it was like an experience where I said, "We need to start doing this in Brazil as well," because they have this really huge ecotourism operation going on. We have something similar in the Pantanal. And then I thought that we should start doing something like this for other biomes, like the Atlantic Forest or the Cerrado where I work right now. And then I used that time in Africa to understand how to generate revenue out of conservation — if I'm going to make revenue out of that, what are the main approaches, which species, what age, what sex. And then I learned a lot — and it's like the foundation of something that we're trying to build here.

Chris Watson: Oh, that's great. Are you trying to model on pre-established approaches? Because I know you've got your three pillars at Pro Onça, which we'll come to in a minute — but are you learning from other models, what's working well and maybe not so well, in terms of conservation approaches?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, yes. I exactly did that. I realised what could work, and what I didn't agree with that much — and what I wanted to do in the end.

Chris Watson: Yeah, because you're quite involved in a lot of policy work as well, aren't you? You're affiliated with some global organisations — the IUCN, for example. So are you getting to see how policy is shaped in different parts of the world, as far as big carnivores are concerned?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, yes. And especially related to transnational borders — because I used to think about policy and how we shape it in a really local or national way. But then in Africa I realised that we can do that using several countries, and it actually works better when we do.

Chris Watson: Yeah, fantastic. So, coming back — because you've got some fantastic stories from your field experiences. So I wanted to touch on that before we talk about Pro Onça. You've had some incredible moments in the field in the Cerrado. You came face to face with a Jaguar, didn't you?

[00:22:53] Rare Black Jaguar Encounter in the Wild

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, yes. Yeah. You know, being able to work all over Brazil — most of the time when I spotted a Jaguar, including the first time — when I saw a Jaguar, it was a captive one. But being able to do fieldwork, which is what I love, eventually brought me to that moment. What happened is that I was in Pirenópolis State Park, which is a really, really small town in the centre of Brazil. Really small. And this is where I started my own NGO — we can talk about that later, about why I chose that place. But we have a high density of melanistic Jaguars there — they are black Jaguars. And this by itself is quite impressive and rare, because only 10% of Jaguars are black melanistic. And then I was studying this population of black Jaguars in this park. And then around 5:30, I was just checking the cameras, doing the monitoring that I was used to doing. And then, to my surprise, I was there checking the camera and the Jaguar just appeared in front of me. And I looked at it and I was like, "Oh my gosh — the black Jaguar, in the wild." And I was just quiet, admiring it.

Chris Watson: Did it get spooked at all? Or — what was it like?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it just stood there a little bit, staring at me. And we had training on what we're supposed to do or not do when we come across a carnivore or a Jaguar. And I know what I'm supposed to do. And I was just like — I cannot stare that much either. But I just — it was staring at me, and I said, "I'm gonna stare right back." And then it was like a moment where our eyes crossed paths. And then it was finished.

Chris Watson: Wow. That's incredible. That really is. And in the wild, seeing that as well — remaining calm, not panicking, not running off — it must have been quite something to be proud of. I don't know how I would react face to face with one in the wild.

Letícia Benavalli: I did stay calm.

Chris Watson: Yeah. How big was it, Letícia? What was the size of it? Was it quite imposing?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. This one was not an adult — it was actually a juvenile, around the same age as one that I also monitor. So it was not that big, but I would say it was definitely bigger than me. And I'm 1.56 metres. So I would say the Jaguar was around 1.5 metres — but it was not an adult yet.

Chris Watson: Is that an area that's quite densely populated with Jaguars? Because I know there are about 80,000 speculated to be in Brazil — are they quite widespread?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it is hard to say. But actually, I work in the northeast of the Cerrado, and there is another research group studying them in that northeast region. And that's where we have the higher density of Jaguars — and it's close to what we call the Emas National Park, which is a really big national park where we've had a lot of Jaguars. Where I started my career.

Chris Watson: Yeah. And you mentioned camera traps — I think you were sharing earlier that you had a bit of a situation where you got lost in the Cerrado. Tell us about that.

[00:27:07] Survival Story: Lost Alone in the Brazilian Jungle

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, I got lost twice. Once in the Amazon during a course, and another time in the Cerrado — but in the Amazon I was not alone. In the Cerrado, I was. So what we do for monitoring the animals we work with is basically going after the camera traps that we place in the field. And then we need to go, from time to time, and collect and download the images that we have of the animals that passed. And I was used to doing that — I'd been doing it for the past 10 years. And I thought it would be no problem. I kept going to the place where I was supposed to be — it was a private piece of land. And then I went with not that much water, not that much food, because it was supposed to be something quick, you know?

But what happened is that instead of turning right as I was supposed to, I turned left. And then this led me along a path that I did not know, and I was quite lost. And as I was not prepared — my GPS only had one battery's worth of power for that day, and by the end the battery was almost finished, so I couldn't use anything. My phone died. And what was supposed to be something routine and easy became three days in the middle of the jungle. And it was really hard for me, because before that I used to be afraid of the dark. I didn't like to be in the dark. But actually it just helped me — I'm not afraid anymore.

Chris Watson: Yeah. What was it like when it got dark that first time and you realised? The anxiety, the panic, the fear — how did you compose yourself and construct a plan?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. First I was trying to get back, however I could — trying to get back on the right path. But each time I decided to do that, I was actually going deeper into the forest instead of going to the right place. And in the beginning, instead of saying, "Okay, I need a plan — I'm going to try this. And if this doesn't work, I'm going to find a place to sleep and I'm going to find water" — instead of doing that, I was trying every way I could to get back to where I started. And when I actually saw the sun going down, I realised that I needed to stop what I was doing. I needed to find something to eat and I needed to find a place to stay. So I found this really big tree — a type we have in the Cerrado — which was quite good for what I needed, because I needed somewhere to sleep. And then I decided to stay there until we had more light. But I couldn't sleep, because I was hearing all these ants and frogs and all kinds of wildlife, but I couldn't see them in the dark. And this was giving me a sense of despair — I was like, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" So I decided to walk around and try another spot with fewer animals around. And then eventually I found this really big rock. I settled on this big rock, and stayed there quietly until sunrise. And when the sun finally rose, I started walking again. And then I went to find food — like insects and what I could find. And it was a whole ordeal.

Chris Watson: How did you get yourself out of that? Did you find your way back, or were you rescued?

Letícia Benavalli: You know what happened? My colleagues who work with me realised that I had not come back home. And they called the property owner — the private landowner — and they said, "Hey, Letícia hasn't appeared. She's not responding. Where is she?" And then it was the first time that people started looking for me. And this guy — luckily — has a helicopter. So they started searching for me across the land using the helicopter. And then after the three days — actually it was two nights and one full day — I saw the helicopter passing by, and then I started screaming and everything. And in the end, they found me.

Chris Watson: That's incredible. Wow. It could have been so, so different.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. I was pretty lucky.

Chris Watson: Yeah. I take it you didn't have provisions — sleeping material, food, water?

Letícia Benavalli: No, because it was supposed to be something really fast, you know? When you're so used to doing something, you stop paying attention. This also taught me a lesson.

Chris Watson: Yeah. So — question then — it's happened once, it's happened twice. It won't happen a third time. What have you learned? What have you taken from that?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. Right now, I know that even something that's supposed to be really simple — we have a protocol to follow. Because it's not only about me — I have a team. And everybody needs to do the same, because I don't want — if it was me, that was okay. But imagine if it was my intern or somebody on my team who got lost, and it was my fault because I didn't follow the protocol. So now we do have one, and everybody needs to follow it.

Chris Watson: Excellent. Sound advice. Because you're travelling in a lot of undocumented areas, aren't you? Blazing a trail, mapping corridors for the Jaguars in fragmented — and dare I say it — dangerous landscapes. How is managing your team, Letícia, now that you've got your organisation? Is it a challenge organising your field trips?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it is really — to be completely honest — really hard, because I have no official management training right now — I'm getting that. But everything that I am doing came out of my own experience and how I think things are supposed to go. And as things get bigger — this is really good because everybody helps a lot, everybody teaches me a lot — but at the same time, I am responsible for everyone. And when we are walking in these kinds of landscapes, it's not only dangerous in terms of weather — like, okay, it might rain and then the river could flood — but it's also dangerous because we are walking in places where we find hunters, where we find hostile people, and it's not always safe for us to be there for a long time. So what I do is — we have a rule that nobody goes anywhere alone, and then everybody needs to strictly follow the protocol. We have emergency devices with GPS, we have extra batteries, so everybody is safe. And I also carry a gun — because as a biologist working in those places, I can hopefully never use it and I don't think I will — but it's important for people to know that if something happens, we can protect ourselves. But it's mainly about getting to know the place where we are going to work. And I do that with my field partner, and we always make sure that we are covering all bases and understanding the terrain, so that we can protect the others, because others don't have as much experience as me.

Chris Watson: Yeah. That's really interesting, Letícia. You touched on something I wanted to get into — because I think only about 2 to 5% of the Cerrado is protected. What is the rest of it? How much is privately owned, how much is public? Do you have to navigate landowners — hostile people — from less of a wildlife perspective and more from a human one? What kinds of challenges and opportunities have you got there?

[00:36:38] Jaguar Hunting Threats & Landowner Conflicts

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, as I said — more than 95% of the Cerrado is outside of protected areas. So we need to work with landowners. That's the only thing we can do if we want to talk about long-term conservation. And landowners — they're not always open. Sometimes they are, and when they are, it's really helpful — they're really interested in helping us. But most of the time they are not. So we need to hold our ground. We need to make sure they understand what we're doing and that we are not the enemy — and that what we actually want from them is their help, so that they can make more money in the end too.

But for example — there's one thing that happened last year. We had a master's student from Oxford, and while we were doing our fieldwork she fell and broke her ankle. And this only happened because we were on a private piece of land that had not been maintained properly — the ground just gave way and she fell. And another example was that last year, in a different place where we were doing fieldwork, one of my teammates almost lost his hand. He was walking and his hand got caught in a snare — set to catch animals.

Chris Watson: Yeah, a snare?

Letícia Benavalli: A snare. And he almost lost his hand because of that. And this is the difficulty — you are working in a place where you don't know who passed through before you. And in a place where nobody has ever done systematic research, hunters are all over the place, because they're interested in the same things that we are.

Chris Watson: Yeah.

Letícia Benavalli: So it's really hard to make sure that everybody stays safe. I understood that as an NGO, as an institution, I also need to make sure that the people who are with me are safe. So it's quite heavy.

Chris Watson: Yeah. I understand that — but it's rewarding work still. It must be, considering you set an institute up. So — are Jaguars hunted in Brazil?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes, they are hunted for several reasons. In some regions they're hunted because of cultural beliefs — some people believe that if you eat part of a Jaguar's body, you'll be more powerful. And they're also hunted in retaliation when Jaguars eat cattle or other farm animals — what we call retaliatory hunting. And in other regions it depends, but yes, they are hunted here.

Chris Watson: What's the government's view on that — regionally or nationally? Do they permit hunting? Is the Jaguar protected?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, we cannot kill a Jaguar here. And if we do, we face a fine and we go to jail. But if we prove that we did it to save our lives, it is legal by law. So what happens is that most people say, "I was doing it to save my life." But in reality, they were going after the animal themselves.

Chris Watson: Okay, I understand. So, switching over to your institute — the Pro Onça Institute. What prompted you to set that up, and what's your vision and values for it?

[00:40:58] Pro Onça Institute: Conservation & Community Empowerment

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it was something that came about somewhat unexpectedly — because I knew that I wanted to create something, but I didn't know it was supposed to be an NGO. I just knew I needed to start something. And then when I came back to Brazil, I worked for a whole year in the areas that I wanted to work in — testing what worked and what didn't work. And then after one year I decided to legalise it as an institution. And actually, this was out of the belief that we need to save Jaguars to actually save the Cerrado — or the Atlantic Forest — or Brazil's biomes in general, but especially the Atlantic Forest, because as I'm from São Paulo, which is in the Atlantic Forest, I had this dream to connect the populations from the Cerrado with the populations from the Atlantic Forest. And this is something really difficult, and something that needs a lot of patience and a lot of really hard work, because the Jaguars from the Atlantic Forest are considered almost extinct — locally extinct — because they're so isolated that they cannot breed anymore. So we have a real challenge here, which is to connect those populations with other biomes so that we have higher genetic diversity. So the institution itself arose because of that.

But after this one-year period of work, I realised that it is not only about Jaguars. I cannot talk about conservation of Jaguars without talking about the people who live alongside them. So I became quite interested in empowering those communities — the rural communities that I work with, especially young people and women — because, with my experience travelling all over Brazil and outside of Brazil, I understood that women don't have the same opportunities in the field as men, especially indigenous women. And I want to change that, because I was able to meet a lot of amazing women who taught me how to actually do conservation — thinking about their traditional knowledge. And then I wanted to include this view in the NGO. I also wanted to include climate change, because the Cerrado is a savanna — and we are seeing firsthand how it's becoming drier and drier. So we are seeing with our own eyes what is happening with climate change. And that's why Pro Onça was founded. And I think in the long term, I'm sure that we are going to be able to do something really good — because we already are. If you consider that we're new, we've only been operating for the last two years, and we're already doing a lot. So I'm sure that there are good things coming.

Chris Watson: Yeah. I think to summarise that a little bit — there are three pillars: carnivore conservation, community empowerment, and gender equality — working with the locals on the ground. It's fantastic. Can you tell us about some of the practical things that you're actually doing from a projects and activity perspective? Because what you said there about one of the species being almost at threat of local extinction, and trying to prevent that by opening up the Jaguar population to the rest of the Cerrado — how are you practically trying to do that?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. So as I said, we have these three pillars. For the Jaguars and their prey, what we're doing right now is monitoring them. So we're understanding their priority areas, how they use the landscape, how they navigate the landscape — do they use sugar cane fields, corn fields? Which habitats do they prefer? And understanding these preferences, I can think about long-term activities. So we are now understanding in practical terms where they live and how they're living. And this is especially interesting because we're in places that no one has ever been before — because in the area where we are right now, people thought the Jaguars were no longer there, that they were locally extinct. And we are proving that they are not only there, but that they are breeding. So that's the first thing we're doing. Second, we are working to restore their habitat. And we were able, in the last year, to restore five hectares — which is not a lot, but if you consider that it was our very first year, for me it's a lot. With limited resources. So we've already restored five hectares of land. And this is for me one of the —

Chris Watson: Yeah — just to cut in, because I'm sure I read that almost 25 million hectares are being lost per year. So I know it's a small number, but the fact that you're trying to recover some ground — focused on habitat restoration and wildlife conservation — should not be understated.

Letícia Benavalli: Exactly. If you think about the rate at which we're losing land — we are deforesting faster than we are restoring. But we are getting there, and we are going to expand this next year.

[00:47:02] Women Leadership in Ecotourism

Letícia Benavalli: So our impact will be much higher. And we are also working with communities, as I told you. Last year, we trained 20 women to work with tourists. Of course, in the Cerrado it's really difficult to see a Jaguar and take people to see Jaguars — but they can do that with birds and other wildlife. So we trained those 20 women to become leaders in conservation. And this is what's happening — they are starting their own ventures and receiving their first clients from Europe, from the US, to come and see — the main example here is birds in the Cerrado, which is also really important, because people used to come to Brazil for the Atlantic Forest or the Amazon or the Pantanal, even though we have a really high biodiversity of birds here. So they don't know that we can see birds. And we are starting to use this as well.

And not only are we empowering those women, but we are also working with the rural youth to understand their role as leaders in conservation. Because what we see is that the decision-making process comes from the top of the chain and then filters down. What we want to show them is that it's supposed to be the opposite — that the people who live there are supposed to be the ones in the decision-making process, to understand how the decisions that we are making are going to impact their lives. So we are starting to do that. And we actually started to implement something that involves creating films to make people understand the importance of Jaguars and the importance of the Cerrado — and mainly the importance of women in conservation. And last year we made our first film, and more than 60,000 people have already seen it. And for me, it was like a lightbulb moment, because I thought, "Oh, people actually engage with this — people don't read scientific articles. But people want to see images of the animals, images of the Jaguar — and they want to hear the women themselves telling their own stories about their own territory." And I understood that this is something people actually engage with more. And yeah, so these are some of the activities that we are doing.

Chris Watson: That's wonderful. Can we get a link to that film so we can share it?

Letícia Benavalli: Sure, sure. I can give it to you.

Chris Watson: I was watching some of the content you shared with me earlier — there is some lovely work. And is that part of your ambition with Pro Onça — to do more storytelling, to bring the Cerrado to life?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. Definitely. This is something I discovered this year. I had no idea how I could use audio-visual work and art to engage people, because I used to think purely as a scientist, as a biologist.

Chris Watson: Well, that's why we are talking today. This is why I do the show as well — I want to shine a light on these places. And when I do the intro in post-production on this one, Letícia, I'll be talking about the Cerrado, trying to shine a light on it and on the work that you're doing for the Institute — to get more eyes and ears on it. And if we can have people contributing to your communities, or coming and visiting and going to these places and supporting the causes, from an experiential perspective — that would be fantastic.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. And I thank you for that.

Chris Watson: No, I appreciate it. It's reciprocal — I get a lot out of this as well. The wonder, exploring these places from afar, and hopefully getting a chance to visit someday. Could — rolling back a little bit — what are the communities offering? Because you touched on people coming from America and Europe. Are you actually offering guided tours and things like that? Can you tell us a bit about that?

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. What's happening is that they're starting their ventures to receive tourists to the Cerrado. So basically they offer a place to stay and a tour, and then the tourists come. It's really nice.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. And without looking at a map — how would people get to the Cerrado? Would that be coming into São Paulo and travelling on from there? What would that look like logistically?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, we have Brasília, which is our capital in Brazil. And Brasília sits in the centre of the Cerrado. So you can either catch a plane to Brasília and then go by road or by car or by flight to other places — because the Cerrado covers a lot of different states. So basically you can come by flight. And it's affordable for people to come — your US dollar or European currency goes further here in Brazil. And this is something that caught the attention of the women we empower — they thought, "Okay, people need to understand that it's affordable for them, so they would come." It's really organic — I'm spreading the word in my network, and other collaborators are doing the same. But we want to make it official — create a website, make people understand that we are doing something here and that people can come.

Chris Watson: Yeah. What were some of these women doing before they got involved with Pro Onça?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, this is a really good question. The women we trained come from different backgrounds and different ages — from their twenties all the way to their sixties. We have one who is studying biology — the local biology programme is really small, so she needs to travel almost two hours to go to a different city to study, and then come back home every day. So she didn't have a lot of opportunities. She studied wildlife, she studied conservation — even though she lives in one of the most biodiverse places on Earth. You can see the contradiction. And then we have, for example, Azalea — she is semi-retired and has her own small piece of land. And so we have people from all different backgrounds, but they're all coming together now in our courses. Which I think is beautiful.

Chris Watson: That's incredible. And it must make you so proud — because sometimes people living in these environments don't realise the wonder that the rest of the world has for these places. Yeah, that's great to hear. It really is.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, it is really interesting, because we're not used to looking at our homes and seeing them as something that is valuable and worth conserving. People often think about land as something you need to make money out of. And actually it's more valuable if you just leave it there and make money in a sustainable way.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. And you've only been going a couple of years, is that right? How old is Pro Onça?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. Legally, one year. But we started two years ago.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Wow. Never get bored of it?

Letícia Benavalli: Not at all. Absolutely not.

Chris Watson: Fantastic. So, bringing it back to carnivores and Jaguars — what is the biggest threat that you see to them as a species in Brazil?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, in the Cerrado, it's definitely deforestation and habitat fragmentation — making them isolated, so that they cannot connect with one another. Habitat fragmentation and deforestation is definitely the main one. Then we have road kills. And then we have retaliatory hunting. And right now, for the last three years, we have had these fires burning everything.

Chris Watson: Yeah.

Letícia Benavalli: And it is hard, because in the dry season, you can see the animals running.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Wow. That's terrifying. From a science perspective — how are you approaching that from a conservation standpoint? How do you capture and analyse the data to see that what you're doing is having a positive impact? How do you approach capturing their movements, their numbers?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, so this is actually the spark of the work, right? Because you need to transform data into something that people understand. So what we do — we use softwares like our camera trap analysis packages and mapping packages, to put the numbers out there and see from a landscape point of view where the animals are and in what numbers. For example, we understood that in this small state park I told you about, we have a certain number of Jaguars living there — and in practice that is not enough for long-term viability based on how much range they need. But still, we have Jaguars. So what we need to do is put the data out there, and then transform it into something the park manager will understand, that the community will understand, that people who see us on our Instagram will understand. I would say that's the hardest part — because it requires us to get out of our comfort zones as scientists, as biologists, and transform the data into something useful for communication. And this is how we came up with all the ideas of films, social media channels, creating workshops with the community. We do that a lot — we take all our data and put it on a simple map and say, "Hey, here are our cameras, and here's the same Jaguar appearing here and here and here as well." We put it out so that everybody can see it, and everybody can think about — okay, so if a Jaguar is passing here and also in another area, what can we do? And then enter habitat conservation and empowering women and youth and all of that. So it's all really interconnected.

Chris Watson: Yeah. How often do you analyse the data — is it a constant daily thing, or do you take points in time, monthly or seasonally? How do you then make decisions based on the data?

Letícia Benavalli: So what we do is — we have volunteers and interns, and they do the foundational work — about 10 hours per week — to organise our data. After each six months, we analyse it. And this gives us the initial patterns we're expecting to see. And then after one year we do the full analysis as a whole — and this is more professional and robust.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Is there anything in the data that's particularly surprised you, or worried you? What are you finding?

[01:00:00] Urban Jaguars in Brasília National Park

Letícia Benavalli: Well, yeah — for example, right now I'm in Brasília, because I'm also studying the Jaguars living in the Brasília National Park and the surrounding areas. And the Brasília National Park is the largest urban national park that we have in the whole Brazilian territory. And people say that for at least the last 50 years, no Jaguar has been able to move around the park. So — no Jaguar in the park for 50 years. And we started monitoring last year, and we actually saw that there was a male Jaguar. And then it was a big thing — where is this male coming from? Where is he going? How is this animal here? And I racked my brain to understand how this animal was able to come to the park, because as I told you, it's a really urban park — even though we have small habitat patches, it shouldn't be enough for a Jaguar to be there.

And then, to my surprise, this year we caught another Jaguar inside the park — this time not a male. Because we can have males wandering around. But this time it was a female. And this is a really big deal, because having a female walking around the park is huge — because she's the one who could bring males and eventually form a breeding population inside the park. And I'm trying to understand how this is possible — whether the park can provide enough prey for the Jaguars to establish a breeding population over time. And this is something I'm trying to understand this year.

Chris Watson: Yeah. What do you think is making them — is it a migratory pattern? Is it prey? Is it climate? Do you have any views on that?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah. For the male, I would say he was just wandering, because males do that — they roam around. But for the female, I would say — I think you call it a javali, right? It's like an exotic wild boar. We have native pigs here, but they are being hunted so much that they don't occur anymore inside the park. But we have an introduction of javali in the park, and I think this could be one of the factors for the female being able to come back — because she will have prey. And now the birds, giant anteaters, and tapirs inside the park are increasing as well. So I would say the park is providing a good prey population.

Chris Watson: Yeah.

Letícia Benavalli: But I still need to confirm that.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Okay. Well, out of interest — what do Jaguars prey on in the Cerrado?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, it depends on the region. In the northeast, where I used to work, they used to eat a lot of wild pigs, giant anteaters, and tapirs — basically that. But here where I work right now, the main prey is capybara, giant anteater, and tapir. And dogs as well.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Capybara — that's my little girl's favourite animal. I don't know why, but she's fascinated with them.

Letícia Benavalli: Oh, capybaras are really nice.

Chris Watson: Yeah. She's fascinated with them — I have no idea why. Excellent. So what is your hope for the Jaguar in Brazil, particularly in the Cerrado? What do you hope for, and what would you hope that Pro Onça contributes to that?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, I would say that my hope is to increase the numbers of Jaguars in the Cerrado and in the Atlantic Forest, and ultimately create a corridor so that the animals can move across biomes. And I know this is going to be really difficult, but it's like a dream for me. And more importantly, I would say that I want to create an institution and a network of people that understand that science and conservation needs to be inclusive — we need to integrate women, and we need to integrate rural people — women and young people — into our conservation actions. Otherwise we won't be able to actually contribute to conservation on the ground. And this is something I have high hopes of continuing to achieve, because we are already doing that. But I want to improve — I want to scale up — and reach more people, not only in the Cerrado but in the whole of Brazil, and eventually become a reference in Latin America.

Chris Watson: Fantastic. You are very clear on what it is you want to go after. There is no ambiguity on that. So that is wonderful. And I wish you all the best with this, and I'll be keeping a close eye on it. It's fascinating. As I said at the start — your CV, the amount of projects, your grants, the support that you're getting, the recognition that you're getting in the industry — is wonderful. And that probably leads on to some of the projects I wanted to touch on. So the Rolex Explorers Club grant project — can you tell us about that and how it supports your work?

[01:06:00] Rolex Explorers Club Grant & Future Goals

Letícia Benavalli: Yes. You know, actually, getting funding is a really big problem — well, it's a problem for everyone, right? And then we try several different ways to get funding. One of them is through grants. When I discovered the Explorers Club, I thought it was something that could help us. And it was at the same time that the Rolex Award was open for applications. And I decided to apply — with my project that I want to turn into my PhD, which I have not started yet, but hopefully I will soon. And it's basically about gathering data on Jaguar occurrence, density, and diet in the Cerrado — especially in places where nobody knew they still existed. And the important thing about that is that we are also interested in the black Jaguars — I mean the whole Jaguar population, but we are giving special attention to the black Jaguars, because as I told you, it's a really rare gene. And I want to understand the origin of it in the population that we are studying.

And with that, I won the Rolex Award. And with the Rolex Award, I was able to travel to New York this year to present our findings. And it was — fancy, first of course — but also really important for me, because it connected me to other researchers from all over the globe, through the network of the Explorers Club. And I'm sure that will be really good for us. For example, I'm now developing a project with another fellow. He won a grant — not to study but to document Jaguars in Argentina. And we are working on a collaboration together. And he's going to come to the Cerrado and document the animals that we're seeing here, because when they saw the pictures of the black Jaguars, they were like, "Oh my gosh, this is so amazing. We need to show this to the world." And I said, "Let's show it to the world."

Chris Watson: Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, it's a fantastic organisation, the Explorers Club. And it's a rich pool of guests for me as well — you are the second person that's presented in New York recently at the Explorers Club who will be on this season of the show. So congratulations — kudos to that. I'm hoping it opens many more doors for you, and brings us many more fantastic conservation stories. And on the melanistic Jaguar — could you see that on the front cover of National Geographic one day?

Letícia Benavalli: Definitely. I would find it strange if it's not there eventually.

Chris Watson: Yeah. Because actually, the most recent issue of National Geographic — I think October 25 — has a slightly melanistic tiger on the front of it. That's one of the stories. I haven't read it yet, but that is on the front cover — which made me think, hopefully your work maybe makes it to the front cover one day. That would be pretty epic.

Letícia Benavalli: Hopefully. I hope so. I saw this picture — it's so, so nice, right?

Chris Watson: Yes. It's lovely. It really is. And I think I'm going to go and read it tonight in bed once we wrap up here — now that we've sparked that thought. So thanks, Letícia, on that.

So one other thing I just wanted to touch on before we move on to closing traditions — because we've been on for over an hour, it's flown by — the work that you're doing with some of the other organisations, like the IUCN, the WCPA — you're getting exposure to global policy as far as conservation and climate change go. What support or influence do you think that has on your work? Do you have a say in any sort of global policy as far as conservation work goes for carnivores — not just in Latin America, but globally? How aligned are policies? How supportive are they?

Letícia Benavalli: Well, right now I'm part of the groups, but I don't have a seat in the sense of being head of it. I give my input and we talk as a group, but I'm not in the decision-making position. Yes. But for example, for the WCPA, from the IUCN, we just had our last meeting last week where we discussed the importance of private areas surrounding the national parks we work with, and how to better engage private landowners in conservation. And we are developing a manual to distribute in Latin America. We did that together as a group. So I don't think I have that senior position right now, but I'm sure that our voices are being heard. And this is something that for me, right now, is enough — because that's what we need to do: being heard.

Chris Watson: Yeah, exactly. I mean, yes — I probably should have phrased that a little bit differently, but what I meant is that you are being heard and respected — which is excellent. It has to start somewhere.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah.

Chris Watson: Yeah. So, excellent. This has been wonderful. I mean, it's got my mind ticking all over Latin America at the moment. And hopefully the others that are listening will go down the rabbit hole on the Cerrado as well, and learn more about that and learn more about Pro Onça and everything we've discussed.

So what I would like to do is move into the closing traditions that we have on the show. They are: a Pay It Forward suggestion, a Call to Adventure, and then I have 10 quickfire questions for a little bit of fun to close out. So I'll start with the Pay It Forward suggestion. You've been involved with a lot of NGO project work, and your own NGO. The Pay It Forward is about recommending or raising awareness for a charity or a project that we want people to go and look into. So we've talked a lot about your organisation — but is there any other organisation, charity, or project that you would recommend as a Pay It Forward suggestion?

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, sure — I could list a bunch of them, but the one I would say people should hear about is called WE CAN. That is basically an organisation raising the importance of empowering women all over the globe, especially indigenous women. And they actually have one project that made me hear about them — I don't remember the name of the project, but it's about how indigenous women are restoring habitats in the Brazilian Amazon. And they actually teach how science can work alongside communities. And for me, this is something I'm really passionate about — how we can integrate traditional knowledge into science. And definitely, this is something I think that everybody should hear about. Their work — WE CAN.

Chris Watson: What were they called again?

Letícia Benavalli: WE CAN. It's like "we can do it," but this WE CAN is the organisation name.

Chris Watson: Excellent. Okay, well, we'll get the proper website link afterwards and make sure we get that listed. Excellent — WE CAN. Perfect.

So the next tradition is a Call to Adventure — an opportunity for you to recommend a place or an activity to get people excited to go and visit or check out. So what would you say is a Call to Adventure?

[01:14:00] Call to Adventure: Climbing Brazil's Serra do Cipó

Letícia Benavalli: Well, I'm a climber myself, so I would say people should try climbing. Because climbing is not really only about being outdoors — not only about the adventure — but it's mainly about how you deal with yourself, with your own limitations, with your own challenges. And for me, climbing is something that everybody should try at least once in their lives. And a place for you to climb — I would say, we have a lot of options, but I would say Cocalzinho de Goiás, where we have big rock faces so you can go sport climbing. And we have mainly bouldering — it's like one of the biggest places to go bouldering in the world, if I'm not wrong, but in Latin America for sure. So everybody should go to Cocalzinho de Goiás and try bouldering.

Chris Watson: Yeah, excellent. That's a fantastic suggestion. I like a little bit of bouldering — less so climbing — but I like a little bit of bouldering, especially with my daughter.

Letícia Benavalli: Oh, nice. You should come here.

Chris Watson: Yeah, I know. Well, considering she loves capybaras, that would be an excuse to get her to come visit. I'll drop those hints later. Fantastic.

Chris Watson: Right. And then finally, Letícia Benavalli, we have 10 questions to close out the show — just a little bit of fun. You can pass if you get stuck. So, question number one: you can have a dinner party with two guests, dead or alive — who would they be?

Letícia Benavalli: Bob Marley and my parents.

Chris Watson: Fantastic. Number two — do you have a hidden talent?

Letícia Benavalli: Hidden talent... dancing!

Chris Watson: Excellent. Number three — if you could be any animal for a day — not a Jaguar — what would it be?

Letícia Benavalli: An orca.

Chris Watson: An orca! Well, that's my favourite animal — I actually have a couple of stuffed orcas over on the side. Yeah, excellent.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, I like them a lot.

Chris Watson: Yeah, I love orcas. I mean, I read and study a lot about killer whales — they're a particular fascination for me. Number four: what is your favourite field or expedition snack?

Letícia Benavalli: It's a banana with a paste that my friend made. It's made of coconut, cocoa, and baru nut — which is like a cashew that we have here. And it's really, really good.

Chris Watson: Wow, that sounds epic. Number five: what is your favourite film?

Letícia Benavalli: Lord of the Rings.

Chris Watson: Interesting. Number six — favourite book?

Letícia Benavalli: Book? Well, I don't know the English name — in Portuguese it's called Utopia... let me think of the English name.

Letícia Benavalli: It's called Utopia for Realists.

Chris Watson: Ah, Utopia for Realists. Excellent. Interesting. Number seven: if you could snap your fingers and be anywhere, where would it be?

Letícia Benavalli: Right now I would say Belize.

Chris Watson: Excellent. Number eight: what scares you?

Letícia Benavalli: Death.

Chris Watson: Death. Number nine: what makes you happy?

Letícia Benavalli: Being with my friends.

Chris Watson: Lovely. Excellent. And finally, number 10: what is the best advice you have ever received?

Letícia Benavalli: It's actually from a woman that I met. And she is no longer with us — I met her when she was in her late 80s, and she used to live in a place where I used to work, in the Cerrado. And it was the first time that I approached a community member to say, "Hey, you should make money out of conservation — do you want to get involved?" And she — being like a conservationist herself in her own way — told me, basically in a not very polite way, "Lady — not everybody wants the same as you. I'm happy as I am." And that resonated with me, because it helped me understand that even though the work that we're doing is important, some people think differently from you — and we need to respect those people. As long as they respect us back.

Chris Watson: Yeah, hear, hear. That is excellent advice. It's always the older, wiser people who put us in our place a little bit, isn't it? That is quite reflective. Excellent. And that's it. Let me bring this to a close. This has been wonderful, Letícia — there is so much we could continue to talk about. There are so many threads that I hope people pick up on afterwards — that they go and research your Institute, that they research the Cerrado, that they get on board with supporting the Jaguar, the community aspect, all the work that you're doing, and the Explorers Club grant as well. That's fantastic. I really, really, really appreciate you spending time chatting with us today. It's been excellent.

Letícia Benavalli: Yeah, I'm the one saying thank you — because it was a pleasure, and it made me think about everything that I'm doing. It was really good. A pleasure.

Chris Watson: Yeah, no, excellent. And I'll keep tabs on it — maybe we have a follow-up in future. It's been wonderful. Thank you, Letícia. It's been excellent.

Letícia Benavalli: Thank you, Chris.

[Outro Voice]: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. For the show notes and further information, please visit adventurediaries.com/podcast. And finally, we hope to have inspired you to take action and plan your next adventure — big or small — because sometimes we all need a little adventure to cleanse that bitter taste of life from the soul. Until next time, have fun, and keep paying it forward.