The Spirit of the Rainforest: Science Meets Indigenous Wisdom with Dr Rosa Vasquez Espinoza

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In this episode of The Adventure Diaries, Chris sits down with Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza, the first scientist in her family, who grew up between the streets of Lima, the high Andes, and the Amazon River. Rosa has since done something no one in history has ever done — securing legal rights for an insect, the Amazonian Stingless Bee. 

We explore how her grandmother's medicinal garden shaped a mission to unite modern science with indigenous knowledge, unpack the chemistry hidden inside stingless bee honey, and dig into the fight to give nature a voice in the courtroom. 

We also cover giant snakes, glowing rainforests at night, and the untapped world of Amazonian wonders still waiting to be named.

Chapters

0:00 — Intro: Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza on The Adventure Diaries
2:54 — Growing Up Between Lima, the Andes, and the Amazon
6:41 — Bridging Indigenous Knowledge and Modern Science
18:10 — The Stingless Bee Initiative Explained
20:30 — Legal Rights for Nature: How the Stingless Bee Won in Court
25:58 — Stingless Bee Honey and Human Evolution
45:32 — The Untapped Amazon: Giant Anaconda Mystery
49:57 — Bioluminescence in the Amazon Rainforest at Night
52:36 — Rosa's Proudest Moment in Amazon Conservation
57:22 — Pay It Forward: Supporting Rainforest Conservation
58:03 — Call to Adventure: Reconnecting With Nature
58:44 — Quick Fire Round With Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza

Key Takeaways

• Rosa secured the first-ever legal rights for an insect — the Amazonian Stingless Bee — under Peruvian law.
• Stingless bee honey contains hundreds of previously undocumented medicinal molecules.
• Indigenous knowledge and modern science can work together rather than compete.
• The Amazon may hide an undocumented giant snake species larger than any Anaconda on record.
• Many Amazonian animals glow under UV light — a largely unexplored "hidden language of light."

Links & Resources

• Book: The Spirit of the Rainforest by Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza
• Rosa's Website
• Amazon Research International
• Rosa's Instagram

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Intro: Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza on The Adventure Diaries

[00:00:00] Rosa: But what he described was a snake that if he put both of his arms out there, stretch out as if he was hugging someone his fingers couldn't touch. And that is larger, way larger than anything we have scientifically documented. We were able to secure something that had never happened in the history of our planet, which was the legal rights of an insect, the first insect together, legal rights recognized stingless bee, and somebody had posted on the internet.

[00:00:28] Rosa: You used to be scared that a bee will sting you. Now you need to be scared that a bee will sue you. 

[00:00:33] Announcer: Welcome to the Adventure Diaries Podcast, where we share tales of adventure, connection, and exploration from the smallest of creators to the larger than life adventurers. We hope their stories inspire you to go create your own extraordinary adventures.

[00:00:50] Announcer: And now your host, Chris Watson. Chris Watson.

[00:00:55] Chris: Welcome to another episode of The Adventure Diaries. Today we're [00:01:00] joined by Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinosa, a Peruvian chemical biologist, National Geographic explorer, and the author of the new book, the Spirit of the Rainforest. Rosa grew up between the streets of Lima, the high Andes, and the Amazon River. She became the first scientist in her family and has since done something that no one in the history of the planet had done before.

[00:01:24] Chris: She secured legal rights for an insect, the Amazonian Stingless Bee. And in today's episode, we explore how a childhood and her grandmother's medicinal garden shaped a mission to bring together both modern science and indigenous knowledge. We unpack the chemistry hidden inside, stingless bee honey, and the fight to give nature a voice in the courtroom.

[00:01:47] Chris: And we get into some of the other Amazonian wonders, giant snakes, glowing forests at night. And the discoveries that scientists have yet to name. So please settle [00:02:00] in and enjoy this fantastic conversation with Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza. Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza, welcome to the Adventure Diaries. How are you?

[00:02:11] Rosa: Thank you so much, Chris. So great to chat with you. 

[00:02:14] Chris: Yeah, likewise. I appreciate your time. Uh, so, uh, so the topic of today is this wonderful book, the Spirit of the, the Rainforest. And there's a lot of things in that I, I kinda want to unpack. Uh, uh, and I've struggled trying to, to narrow into to some of the topics, but the crux of it will come to the.

[00:02:37] Chris: Distinguished Bees Initiative is more, is probably the arc today. But I, what I'd like to do is to, to bring it back, Rosa, and maybe get a bit of a context about young Rosa before we step into your, your, uh, studies in science and then, and obviously the work, uh, in the Amazon. 

[00:02:54] Growing Up Between Lima, the Andes, and the Amazon

[00:02:54] Chris: So what was it like for Young Rosa growing up between Lima and the Andes and the Amazon?

[00:03:01] Rosa: Yeah, no, thank you so much. I was very kind. I cannot wait to hear your, your thoughts on the book and I, I mean, I had to be honest, um, pretty typical childhood with the difference that my time of school looked quite different to perhaps. Most of my, even my classmates. So, but to me it was so normal. So that meant that whenever I was not in school in the capital city of Peru, which is Lima, like any other busy city like your Londons or or New York, I was either cultivating potatoes with my family in the high Andes for Traverse in the Amazon River with my cousins.

[00:03:42] Rosa: And it was just such a time of play. So, you know, I would be traveling to these areas to visit my extended family and spend time with them. And so it was always time of discovery. We were just allowed to be very playful and I think I just developed such, [00:04:00] such a sense of freedom. Nature in those times. And so I think there's been a part of me that's always been chasing that.

[00:04:07] Rosa: And then of course as I became more of an adult and aware of what, you know, it's the things that attract me naturally. Just being outdoors has been such a key aspect to me and, and the close relationship I've had to indigenous learnings inadvertently really through my family and my grandmother. 

[00:04:25] Chris: Yeah.

[00:04:26] Chris: Fantastic. How do you go from that kind of, uh, background Rosa into like your studies, you studied chemical biology and you went to the US and stuff. So how, and I think the first scientist in your, your family, if I understand correct as well. So how do you go from that kind of kinda rich cultural back?

[00:04:44] Rosa: Yes, I was the first scientist in my family and I mean, it was definitely a big jump going from that upbringing and experience to. Moving to the US when I was 18 by myself. And you know, such a big cultural shock as well from [00:05:00] the very basic things on how to say, how do people with a kiss on the cheek or a handshake and food to more complex things.

[00:05:07] Rosa: Of course, like don't think, I had never realized I had a, what people call an indigenous upbringing until I realized that's what people were calling it because it was different from the way I had grown up. You know, understanding that there is so much traditional medicinal knowledge within plants that I was so used to seeing my grandmother with and then seeing how other continents and cultures view that.

[00:05:32] Rosa: So it was definitely, I think, a long-term experience for me that as of course I grew into adulthood as well and understood how the western world views traditional knowledge. There was a lot to unpack for myself and I think I also. In a way, at some point really cemented myself in westernized ways of living, which were not typical to me, but I think it is just, it was quite natural seeing that I had moved to [00:06:00] the US so young for my studies.

[00:06:02] Rosa: And so then there was this almost like also long period of reconnecting back and finding what that means in the modern times because in a way we're all intercultural nowadays. 

[00:06:13] Chris: Yeah, and that's what I find fascinating. You know, you as a, as a much revered and recognized scientist, National Geographic, exploring all that good stuff that will come to, but if you think about the indigenous roots and some of the topics that you, you cover in that, like the mythical nature of some of the beliefs and like the animism and the living beings and the spirits and all that stuff.

[00:06:37] Chris: Obviously the book is called The Spirit of of the Rainforest. 

[00:06:41] Bridging Indigenous Knowledge and Modern Science

[00:06:41] Chris: Did you have a conscious decision at some point to try and bring both worlds together? Through your work to try and elevate like the understanding of the indigenous knowledge about the rainforest, but have the empirical nature of science and try and bring that together.

[00:06:58] Chris: Was it conscious? [00:07:00]

[00:07:01] Rosa: That's a great question and I think it started really organically. I don't think at the beginning I was clear on what I was doing, and of course the mission became really clear afterwards, but I just had grown up with such a deep sense of what we can call it spirituality, we can call it traditional upbringing of my grandmother have a, having such a close relationship with nature in ways that are different from a westernized scientific perspective where she develops a different kind of caring for plans or preparing them or even talking to them.

[00:07:35] Rosa: And I just saw no space for this. Kind of knowledge this system of knowing within the Western academics spaces where I was, where instead those kind of knowledges perhaps would be typically mocked before or would be considered, you know, the things you put in a little market. And I think I revere myself so much how my grandmother and my ancestors' view nature.

[00:07:59] Rosa: [00:08:00] So I think I was always trying to find a way to not be ashamed of that. And then eventually, not only did I realize I didn't need to be ashamed of that, I needed to be proud. And that was if there was no way that these knowledge systems were being met, maybe we needed to make one. And I think at that moment, you know, I made the conscious choice.

[00:08:19] Rosa: Our mission is clear. I want to find a way to bring together modern science and traditional knowledge and work together, be integrated and create solutions rather than being competing as I think we feel like they have been for such a long time. You know? 

[00:08:35] Chris: Yeah. And you, you're doing it. And forgive me if I butcher some of the pronunciations.

[00:08:41] Chris: It's bad enough with a thick Scottish accent, but trying to pronounce some of the, the terms and stuff. But is it the, am I saying that correctly? That's perfect. 

[00:08:50] Rosa: Yes. That's great. 

[00:08:52] Chris: Yeah. So, so how, how does that come into it? Because obviously you're recognizing the, the work and being respectful of their, [00:09:00] their cultures and, and trying to bridge that with your work.

[00:09:03] Chris: So how, how did that come to be? Are they part of your extended family or, or your roots? What's the kinda connection there? 

[00:09:11] Rosa: You know, I, we don't know if we necessarily are connected by blood with the Anaca culture. We might be. So we have been able to track back our ancestor within my family to people that live semi anomaly in the central Amazon.

[00:09:27] Rosa: And when we try to kind of place it in the timeline of the cultures in Peru, the Anaca would've been a big part of that region. So it is high chances. But we will need to do the genetic studies and I, I hope I can do it at some point. But no, I, until we do that, to be honest, my relationship with Yinka started already years back where we just met through collaborators and started to do some science work.

[00:09:52] Rosa: 'cause they really were interested in bringing these scientific perspectives. And I think they had not really seeing a [00:10:00] young Peruvian, um, female being leading this work before because we are not typically, you know, used to having the spaces to, to have young female leaders like that. And they were so receptive to it.

[00:10:14] Rosa: I think they, they saw the intention that me and my team came with, and they saw also the impact we were putting, you know, our actions, where our mouth was. And I don't think in rural areas, that always happens. There's so much fragility because there's been a lot of, you know, mistrust for good reason, people being betrayed, people being abused.

[00:10:36] Rosa: And so I think we just developed such a beautiful friendship and kinship and really such a deep relationship that then they invited me to be the International Shining Ambassador. And I feel like that really has just propelled like, uh, multi-year collaboration in so many ends where, you know, they come to idea to me with ideas.

[00:10:56] Rosa: I come to them with ideas. We figure out what works [00:11:00] best for the rainforest for them. And I mean, we just have so many incredible projects. We even have the first Sheah scientist published with our work. Wow. Which is so extraordinary. 

[00:11:11] Chris: Yeah. Wow. That's, that's incredible. I mean, how many expeditions and stuff have you been on with the fashion Inca?

[00:11:19] Rosa: Oof. I should count. I don't know. It's been a few years. Uh, definitely multiple a year over the last three, four years, and we are heading to a few more very soon. Uh, I've definitely, uh, I've had collaborations with different indigenous groups, but the forests I have been in the rainforest is probably with hanah by, you know, playing and car and, and I don't know how many hours striking.

[00:11:42] Rosa: And then from there, keep going. And they have also introduced me to families that still live in seminoma ways and more isolated. And I, that has definitely been, you know, such a, such a different experience and so enriching to me, uh, in, in our [00:12:00] journey together or finding, you know, where else should we be looking at doing science and for what purpose that's best for these people.

[00:12:08] Chris: Yeah, it must be difficult straddling the ethics or some of that and, 'cause some of the points I wanted to come onto later is like the untapped potential, but being, you know. Being, you know, being careful not to be exploitative or seeing the, the Amazon as a resource to extract and, and exploit. How do you, how do you negotiate those types of boundaries with the indigenous and, you know, maybe the government and stuff, because you're only there in a science mission, but, you know, it's, it's, it's always something I'm curious about.

[00:12:40] Chris: And it kinda, you've touched on it in your book to an extent in some of your studies, but I'm just curious to understand your mind and your thought process when you approach those expeditions and the objectives. 

[00:12:51] Rosa: It's such an important question and to be honest, I had an experience during my forming years that I think made me so aware of how [00:13:00] vulnerable these situations can go.

[00:13:02] Rosa: And I think that really helped me. Be even more sure that we needed to have Peruvians be leading this kind of work. And so like the, the experience I had is I was working with this team that was really renowned and known to act in very ethical ways. And we went through all the permit process through the governments and we were not working directly with indigenous peoples at that point, but we were within Amazonian territories.

[00:13:25] Rosa: But even then, when the time came, that other group that was not from Peru, they were like, these are our samples. These belong to us when no, anything you collect from the Amazonian forest belongs to the country that they came from, belongs to the people that you know live. Um, and cohabiting those territories.

[00:13:42] Rosa: Um, and I. I was a lot younger at the time, and it came a little bit with a heartbreak of realizing, okay, this is the truth of how people have handled and the reason why my country is so hurt. And you can see it in the legislation, in the difficulty that is to get a permit in how fragile the [00:14:00] conversations can be.

[00:14:01] Rosa: So my perspective was to, one, always start with conversations and have things very clear from the start. And two, not only go through what is required, which is the permit process, that luckily over the last 10 years, Peru has really developed a much better system for permits and for access. And what does that mean in terms of potential benefits, whether it's monetary or non-monetary, which there wasn't, you know, a system before.

[00:14:27] Rosa: But even those that are governed by international frameworks like the Nagoya Protocol and many others that are key and we need, I still see many gaps and my colleagues in indigenous communities still see many gaps. To give you an example, let's. 

[00:14:44] Chris: Can I ask a quick favor? Please. If you are enjoying the Adventure Diaries Podcast, could I ask that you take the time to click that subscribe or follow button, and if you're feeling extra generous, a written review or a star rating on your platform or [00:15:00] choice would be greatly appreciated.

[00:15:03] Chris: Let's get back to the episode. Thank you. 

[00:15:05] Rosa: Say there is one cure in the Amazon for X disease. And in theory, you know that knowledge and that resource belongs to the people that know that specific wisdom. But let's say there was already a documentary that shared it and made it known to the world, that immediately means it's already public knowledge, which means they have by law no protection anymore.

[00:15:28] Rosa: Their knowledge has no protection. There's no way for them to have retribution back. And unfortunately that has been the case for a lot of the drugs that we have nowadays. So for us, it's permits plus bringing in environmental lawyers. And with that, with the group of Urlo Center, we are working on two specific, very concrete actions parallel to all of our science work.

[00:15:50] Rosa: And this has been integrated from the start and is a continuum. One, it's working on rights of nature frameworks, and two is working on something called a [00:16:00] biocultural protocol, which is a lengthy, you know, a document that takes, in many cases, years to build with the community so that it fill those gap on what needs to be protected and how, and who could be tributed and how as well.

[00:16:14] Rosa: Yeah, it's, it's definitely a much more complex word than just coming in and doing science. And I think in the Amazon we've been typically used to having people come and just do science and not take accountability for what does that mean. And I think with what we're doing, we're hoping that we're leaving a trail and leaving evidence that although we are small and independent, look that we are able to do that.

[00:16:37] Rosa: There's no excuse for anybody else not to do that as well. 

[00:16:41] Chris: Yeah. And your. Kinda a non-profit, the Amazon Research Initiative, is that, where is that the umbrella organization for approaching these types of projects and expeditions? 

[00:16:52] Rosa: Yeah, that's, 

[00:16:53] Chris: yeah. 

[00:16:54] Rosa: Yeah. I, I found that that organization, Amazon Research International, with, with that idea, really, once I had that [00:17:00] experience and I was talking to a lot of our indigenous communities as to what is the solution, you know, how can we do work that is impactful without falling prey to these, um, these things.

[00:17:10] Rosa: And I originally first looked for organizations that I could join because starting something from zero is absolutely the most painful and most difficult route. And I was not necessarily for that, but we didn't really find any, any that me or my colleagues from the indigenous communities trusted. And so we just kind of made the decision at that point, okay, I'm, I'm gonna try this.

[00:17:33] Rosa: And so that's when I decided to found the organization and we are developing this model and I think we're showing that it can work. And, you know, hopefully it can lead to other projects developing a similar approach. 

[00:17:45] Chris: Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. Right. I, I've going to kind of switch, switch lanes a little bit, Rosa, and get into some of the things that I've touched on in the book.

[00:17:54] Chris: And like I say, I've got so many notes, I've got so many topics and I'm kinda like, I'm just so curious about this. [00:18:00] There's certain things that just jump off the page to, uh, to me. But I wanted to, to give a bit of a platform to the, the Stingless B initiative and how, how that, 

[00:18:09] The Stingless Bee Initiative Explained

[00:18:09] Chris: how did that come about? Uh, you know, what were you actually, were you studying them or were you trying to profile the, the benefits of that?

[00:18:19] Chris: They're kinda honey. 'cause I know there's, there's medicinal benefits and stuff, but, but why this thing is bee, wh how did that come into the picture? 

[00:18:29] Rosa: So I'm not an entomologist. I was not studying bees before. Yeah. Nor had I really a connection with them being fully transparent with you. I came to stingless bees for a very particular project that was meant to be a one-off science collaboration.

[00:18:43] Rosa: And then that's it. And that started in the time of COVID. So in the time of the pandemic, most communities across the Peruvian Amazon were using stingless bee honey as one of their main ingredients to treat the symptoms of this, uh, infection. And [00:19:00] there was a lot of questions as to look, we know this honey has been used by our ancestors for so many conditions or illnesses.

[00:19:07] Rosa: Is there anything that shows, uh, invalidates this information in any way? And so. And local scientist, I could become a biologist, Dr. Cesar Delgado, he ringed me up. I was doing my PhD at the time in Michigan, so I was away from Peru as well. Nobody was able to travel and said, do you wanna do the science project with me?

[00:19:27] Rosa: I know your expertise. You look at chemistry in nature. Can you tell me if there is something in this honey or not? And I said, let's do it. And that's how it started. And not only did we ended up running the first chemical analysis of stingless B honey and finding hundreds of incredible medicinal molecules that added so much additional knowledge to do what the communities already knew.

[00:19:50] Rosa: But I think I just fell in love with them by seeing how much they meant beyond just what we know bees do. You know? 

[00:19:58] Chris: Yeah. And, and you know, [00:20:00] going back to some of the, the conservation work and you, uh, and congratulations, you, you managed to secure, uh, you know, rights. What, what, and what does, what does that actually mean?

[00:20:11] Chris: So you've got protection rights under, uh, I think, was it Peru's law 3, 2, 2, 3, 5, which I've got written down. I didn't remember that one. But what, you know, science to policy, essentially, what does that mean for the stimulus B and, and obviously the, the, the, the environment. 

[00:20:30] Legal Rights for Nature: How the Stingless Bee Won in Court

[00:20:30] Rosa: You heard. Have you heard about the rights of nature movement before 

[00:20:33] Chris: and about?

[00:20:34] Chris: I had not. I had not. But what piqued my curiosity is I'd never, I've never seen an animal or, or, or a being like that being protected. It's usually, yeah. So I was just about, I'm bit curious to, to what it actually means. 

[00:20:48] Rosa: Yes. So for example, in court, we as human beings have basic rights, the right to survive, to have access to food, to water to be represented.

[00:20:58] Rosa: Companies for-profit [00:21:00] companies have a similar right as personhood, so they can be treated as a separate person. In courts, nature doesn't. And so that really leaves so many gaps as to how nature can be protected and defended in court. That is just explaining very simple terms, and that goes by recognizing that nature is life and that on its own, I feel it's the heart of the rights of nature movement.

[00:21:21] Rosa: It's a lot more complex than that, but in a way, for me, it represents this legal reflection of what indigenous worldviews tell us, that nature is alive. And so for us, through a lot of work of like science, research and, and cultural documentation. And, and so much storytelling and education. We were able to secure something that had never happened in the history of our planet, which was the legal rights of an insect.

[00:21:47] Rosa: The first insect together legal rights recognized stingless bee and somebody had posted on the internet. You used to be scared that a bee will sting you. Now you need to be scared that a bee will sue you. And I think that really kind of [00:22:00] summarizes it. But for us, what it means is that they are now in these two specific areas in Peru, recognize their rights to, to exist without pesticides and pollutants.

[00:22:11] Rosa: The right to have healthy floras so that there has to be regeneration efforts, their right to be defended in court. So if something was to happen, the people, the indigenous people that depend on and you know, cohabit with these beast can go and represent the bees on their behalf and many other. Rights associated to that.

[00:22:31] Rosa: And we are, this is only the beginning. We're really working on what the implementation and regulation looks like. 'cause there's no case like this before. It's so new and so we're providing a lot of technical expertise. But it's so, because I think it feels so many gaps in conservation and we are seeing so much interest from different countries from 

[00:22:51] Chris: Yeah.

[00:22:51] Rosa: Holland, UK, US Yeah. Ecuador, Colombia, Bolivia to replicate this now. 

[00:22:57] Chris: Yeah. I, I mean, as pollinators as well, I think [00:23:00] that that shouldn't, should not be understated as well in terms of what they, what they do for the environment. And we can talk about, you know, the impacts to climate change and stuff like that as well.

[00:23:08] Chris: So does that protect them across all of Peru or is it, is it only in a certain area? How does the law actually work? 

[00:23:17] Rosa: So for, we had achieved two things in Peru, a national law, the one that you mentioned that is to recognize in all of Peru that stingless bees are the native bees. And that's quite general, but it does make already an impact now for their legal rights and everything I've mentioned that is a lot more specific.

[00:23:35] Rosa: That's only in two regions right now, in two specific areas. But we're working to get more areas involved 'cause there's been so much interest and eventually we'll aim to have it be recognized nationally. But I think it the first legal precedence in the history of our planet that these can happen. And so, you know, there are people from other countries that may not even have stingless bees, but have their own wild bees like Bumblebees or others Yeah.

[00:23:58] Rosa: That now can use these as a [00:24:00] precedent, you know? Yeah. And so that I think is where it's really exciting. Even here in the UK alone, there is over 200 types of wild bees native to the UK. You know, 

[00:24:10] Chris: I, I mean, I, I, I remember when I was a kid. And I couldn't tell you what specific type, but as, as a kid, I distinctly remember we had bumblebees that, uh, you know, they sting and they die.

[00:24:21] Chris: We'd wasps, but we had little kind of, uh, stingless bees that used to play with, uh, when, when we were kids in, in Scotland, which is odd. And, and I, I had never really thought about that until I read the articles, uh, on that. I thought it was just something that would, would've been exotic. But then memories came back from being a kid interacting with those question, do, do you think that law has the potential to protect Fauna or any other.

[00:24:46] Rosa: Yeah, so I think the rights of nature has already been applied to other animals in other parts of the world. So for example, in Panama, this is word by an amazing, in friend of mine, Cali Valenti Turf. The Leatherback turtles already have their [00:25:00] legal rights recognized as well, and that is at a national level.

[00:25:03] Rosa: And there's a few cases in much smaller like areas appearing from like whales to bears and a few others. And I think we need more of that. So I do think there's already this precedence beginning. I think the fact that we have achieved it with the smallest animal yet to date, it shows that it has all the implications to any other kind of wildlife too.

[00:25:23] Rosa: So yeah, we are now doing our best to put all of this in, you know, in information and tools that others could replicate, not just necessarily with bees but with other animals. And even eventually flora. I think there is, so ma, you know, many plants and trees that could eventually, we could envision adding as well.

[00:25:41] Chris: Yeah, fantastic. See, it's coming back to the, the Bee. I, I, I'm sure I remembered because I listened to the audio book as well as reading, so I, I flipped between both of them, but I'm, I, I distinctly remember. Hopefully, hopefully I remember you said something about the studies or the honey or 

[00:25:58] Stingless Bee Honey and Human Evolution

[00:25:58] Chris: the bees may have contributed to human evolution and brain power or something.

[00:26:03] Chris: Is, was, 

[00:26:05] Rosa: this is something that, you know, I I, I'm so glad you mentioned it 'cause I feel like I've been meaning to talk about this and nobody has asked me this question yet. It is a controversial topic, so it's up to debate, but. There. You know, before we were homo sapiens, there was so many ancestors that we came from and derived from and et cetera.

[00:26:23] Rosa: And there's always this big question in evolution is what led to the development of our brain to what they are now. You know, they became larger, they became a lot more complex and there's many theories. One of them, it's of course related to food. The fact that we started to consume meat and hot fire and that added proteins and that literally, you know, contribute to the neuroplasticity of our brains.

[00:26:47] Rosa: But then there is also this theory and many people that argue that honey also played this role. And when we look at the evidence, there's evidence that days back 10,000 years ago, even 40,000 years [00:27:00] ago, that show that. Back in the day, cavemen already knew how to access bee hives, and this is back in Africa, very aggressive bees in hives that were depicted in cave paintings to be really tall, where someone was risking their lives for a little bit of honey.

[00:27:20] Rosa: So what was that incentive? Is it just the fact that it was sweet and it was like one of the sweetest things that we could find in nature, or could it have been more than that? And when we look at the different theories that come forward is that honey, whenever one specifically is hungry, generates such an intense boost in energy and wellness.

[00:27:39] Rosa: But also in neuroplasticity, there's even more studies, and these are more recent studies as well, that shows that it can improve with cognitive skills, with memory, with literally brain power in many ways. And so I do think that there's something to say that is not just meat in these complex proteins that added to the evolution of our brain, [00:28:00] but that honey did too.

[00:28:02] Chris: It's, it's so fascinating. I mean, I, I think you also touch on in the book as well, and I think maybe from your grandparents and, and your family around like the, you know, and even some of the, the indigenous people about what the, the, almost like a, it's kind of an actual pharmacy, but it's like a garden of like, you know, it's abundance in terms of like the different food stuff or like the foreign and foreign, what they can do for wellbeing and, you know, there's, there's a plant for something and, and you can talk, talk about the tobacco plant and, and at some point, and I think it's facing the mountain at one point, and you're talking about the, the, you know.

[00:28:39] Chris: The, the resonance they have in the spirituality of that. What, what other kind of, what, what were you taught as in terms of like what the, the forest could offer you in terms of like health and wellbeing from your family growing up before you got into the, the book and did that, did you have some of that in your mind in terms of like your studies?

[00:28:58] Chris: 'cause I know you went obviously going to study [00:29:00] chemical biology, but did you then ever study some of these plants and things as part of your, your research? 

[00:29:06] Rosa: You know, we are only just getting started with medicinal plants work in my organization and there there's a reason for that. So I'm so glad you mentioned that.

[00:29:14] Rosa: 'cause it's a completely new project. We really haven't shared about it. Um, we've been very quiet as we start to develop it, but I mean, there are so. My love for science began through the medicinal plants in my grandmother's garden and the stories she would have or she remembers when she was a teenager and the elderly in her community, and this is a town in the middle of nowhere in the mountains, would take her to 4,000 meters above sea level re and to look for medicinal flowers.

[00:29:45] Rosa: And when she would get to the top, she would look around and she says, for the naked eye, everything's dead. 'cause you don't really have much, 4,000 meters above sea level. But then they would encourage her to keep looking until she found this tiny purple flower that [00:30:00] apparently was extremely good for when somebody had infections.

[00:30:03] Rosa: And this is just one of many memories. And of course in the Amazonian forest, that translates to so many plants that we don't even have a name for, you know, species that will be completely new to science that I have personally used from things to my skin, to colds, to indigestions, to burns. There was even this small resin from a, from a tree that is called a dragon blot tree, that when you tap into the tree, it releases these deep, dark resin that we would always keep in a small little vial in my house because it was our liquid bandage.

[00:30:37] Rosa: So if you get cut instead of necessarily going to a typical bandage, we would go to that, to this resin, add a few drops. It's this deep, dark, dark red color. You apply it on your skin and then you start to rub it and it immediately turns into this wide, more thick material that almost acts like a liquid bandage.

[00:30:57] Rosa: And so there's so much that I've always been [00:31:00] fascinated. When I started my degree, I wanted to work on medicinal plants. The technology at the time was a lot. Stronger for microbial natural products. And so that's what I focus on. But now finally, uh, now that I feel like we're getting a little bit more established with, with our organization, we have started a project with Kma Shabo and Han Nika, women and men, to start the first indigenous led documentation of traditional medicines.

[00:31:27] Rosa: So hopefully more to come soon on that. 

[00:31:31] Chris: I mean, it just blows my mind. I think we're probably not even tapped, like 1% of the potential, you know, that that's out there. It just, it blows my mind. And what blows my mind even more is like these things getting handed down over generations and generations and generations.

[00:31:47] Chris: It's like, h how, how, how do we, how do people find the benefits of this? It just, it's absolutely blows my mind. And it's, I could go down the rabbit hole on it for, for, for days. 

[00:31:58] Rosa: No, same. There was, there was [00:32:00] even a study that just came out, I think like in the last two weeks that says we've. Typically believe or assume that people just went to find whatever they find in the forest and then that's it.

[00:32:11] Rosa: But in reality, the studies show that a lot of the nature we have out there has been shaped by the medicinal knowledge and needs of the communities. So the same way you think of your garden as your garden, and you kind of curated the people in the Amazon thought of the Amazon as their garden, and they have curated it over time.

[00:32:31] Rosa: Um, and so the, even the origin of agriculture, many argue it started 10,000 years ago in the Amazon with people, you know, kind of curating for specific type of caca trees and, and a few others. And so the same with the medicinal plants. To this day in, for example, in the Hanin territory, we had a colleague that came to do some work and said, where are their medicinal gardens?

[00:32:54] Rosa: And I was trying to explain, and then my anaca, um, community leader was, explain it even [00:33:00] better. We don't have like one specific medicinal garden. She just pointed out the whole of the Amazon That is my garden. Yes. You know, if I have, um, eye cataracts, I go here. If I have problems with my lungs, I go here.

[00:33:15] Rosa: If I have issues with my skin, I go here. That's it. You know? And so it's just so fascinating and yeah, you're right that we've studied so little of it and also we have depredated so much of it and we have not done a good job. So I think it's time to do it differently. 

[00:33:30] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:33:30] Rosa: For the sake of the rainforest.

[00:33:32] Chris: Yeah. And having like those community led mo models where the, you know, it, it's anchored back to the people that have the knowledge that are passionate about it and, and can protect it. I mean, what made me, just, my mind wandered there a little bit, Rosa, and I was thinking of a conversation I had with someone who down in Guyana and they were talking about going through like the rainforest and the indigenous knowledge then like tapping into vines to drink water.

[00:33:58] Chris: But two vines that are almost [00:34:00] identical. If you, you tap one and drink one, you're dead. If you tap the other one, then, then you're fine. And it's just these, these margins are like, so it can be so thin, but it's the, the knowledge that people know that we have 

[00:34:10] Rosa: the same in the Amazon by the way. I would love to try.

[00:34:13] Rosa: We have the same in the Amazon, there is this water vine. It's literally the same. And if you happen to get the other one, you're gonna get a really bad case of diarrhea. 

[00:34:21] Chris: See when you, uh, see, when you go on your expeditions into the, to the jungle, do you have to rely on subsistence? Subsistence rather the jungle?

[00:34:30] Chris: Do you have to forage for that? How, how does that go in terms of like food stuffs and things? Have you had to do that? 

[00:34:35] Rosa: Um, so we typically try to plan as best as we can to bring what we need for our teams, but also to share while the time we're there and to leave some food behind. But of course, it has happened already a few times that we do run out of food or water.

[00:34:50] Rosa: Uh, and we are in the middle of nowhere. And at that point, we just have to very kindly ask our community members, you know, can we buy some of your harvest? And then we need to go and [00:35:00] cold and, and harvest some yucca with them early, early in the morning and just survive out of yucca, Yucca for breakfast, yucca for lunch, yucca for dinner.

[00:35:07] Rosa: You don't wanna UK after that. The same for water in some areas. Um. You know, in some areas of the Amazon where the water's being contaminated nowadays with the mining mm-hmm. You don't necessarily want to be relying on the water anymore, unfortunately. And so what we have found is that some of these communities rely on Masato.

[00:35:28] Rosa: I don't know if you, have you ever come across that drink, masato drink? It is a traditional, very staple drink of the Amazon that is prepared by fermenting yuca. So yuca is like this potato, kind of like food, and women chew it and then let it basically be digested and fermented. And then sometimes it could be mixed with other items, items like ants or a few other natural resources.

[00:35:54] Rosa: And then it becomes, you know, this drink. And depending on the level of fermentation, it could be slightly [00:36:00] alcoholic or not. Yes. And that is the staple drink. You know, in many areas we have been to where the moment we run out of water, well we learn. That's what they're relying on, you know, for, for their days.

[00:36:11] Chris: Yeah, I, I, I've seen that on Bruce Pars, uh, documentary. Yeah, I think recently. Like Tribe actually. Yeah. Again, that's, it's, it's fascinating. It's really fascinating. What, see, when you have you, when you're working with the Ian Inca and you're in, into, are you coming against up against other like tribes or indigenous parties that you may not have interacted with, that you have to maybe go through some sort of ceremonial introduction or anything like that?

[00:36:40] Chris: How, how does, how does that work? Or, or do you tend to, do you tend to know the pupils that you're going come across when you go in these expeditions? I'm just curious from a cultural, because cultures within cultures and how, how that experience is in the field. 

[00:36:54] Rosa: Yeah, so we always kind of enter with a team that we know really deeply, but, and [00:37:00] then they know really pretty much all of the families, even the ones that are live in remote or couldn't quote unquote, could be considered uncontacted by meaning that they're not really having contact.

[00:37:10] Rosa: With the rest of the world. Uh, but we'll have it with our main haninah representatives, if you may. Uh, and so they will know them, but not me. And yeah, of course, many cases it varies on the kind of ceremony that they want to have. So, for example, I'll give you the one that I perhaps is a bit more common to find, is that there will be a fire placed in the evening and they're gonna share their dances and their music and really expressing what they're feeling at the moment, and then inviting you to join.

[00:37:38] Rosa: And then if there has been any hunt recently, they'll put it in the center, like a wild Turkey per se, and then everybody can share the food and then passing the masato, which is quite critical because it's a way of showing trust. Drink it, it means it's not contaminated. If you drink it, it means you trust me.

[00:37:53] Rosa: Um, and so this is quite very typical in other families. Definitely the, the, the ones that are [00:38:00] more remote and a lot smaller. Our experience has been more like the, the leader of the family asking us to sit around what they consider to be their most important plants. And in this one particular case, they had a really tall tobacco plants right in the middle of their home.

[00:38:18] Rosa: And we all had to sit around and he wanted to share very specific stories. The, the, the, the, the couple was really interested in understanding how everybody else was living and what does a 14 story building mean, and where did they used to hang out and if people had trees around them, you know, and this is a family that had never heard a radio before, you know, that kind of, um, really isolated kind of family.

[00:38:44] Rosa: And, and that's the ceremony. They wanted to sit around the tobacco plant for protection because they believe that anybody and any energy that they come with the tobacco would absorb and would guide him as needed. So, really fascinating. 

[00:38:56] Chris: Yeah. Do you find that? See, see, when you're. [00:39:00] And the, these kind interactions and having like maybe like the connection and conversation.

[00:39:05] Chris: Do you find that some of the, the mythical side of like what, what's the, again, I may butcher this. Is it the Pachamama? Mama ache. Mama 

[00:39:13] Rosa: ache. Mama. 

[00:39:14] Chris: Am I, am I saying that wrong in terms of like the, is it the, the kinda feeling that everything's alive and they're all interconnected? I think that, I think that might be the term.

[00:39:22] Chris: I might be saying that wrong, but I'm just wondering if the different, uh, the different groups have similar beliefs in the same sort of connected nature of, you know, the environment, the mountains, the plants, the animals, all being kinda one. 

[00:39:37] Rosa: I actually have found that. Even outside of pro, even outside of the Amazon, when getting to connect with indigenous peoples, even globally, although the term may change, I think the meaning kind of remains similar, that everything's connected and then everything is alive.

[00:39:53] Rosa: And I have really thought so deeply about this as to what does that mean from so many different perspectives, even the scientific. [00:40:00] And I try to reflect that in the book as well. But I mean, across the Amazon, the Pachamama term is Chuan, so it really comes more from mountain origins. But there was so much cultural transfer and communication that that term is still used by some Amazonian communities, but not necessarily by all, and by the ones that, that they may not use that term, they typically refer it to more of like a way of living, like for example, the Za or, uh, the way of living beautifully, which means you live quite in sync that if the rainforest is healthy, it means you are healthy.

[00:40:34] Rosa: And if you are healthy, the rainforest is healthy with you. So almost like a personification that really kind of comes back to the idea that nature is alive, that it has a human-like spirit. So I, I think that drives so much of the decision making of the way you decide whether to cut down a tree to, to use it to build a house or whether you are fishing for the day.

[00:40:56] Rosa: But I think it also kind of keeps this. [00:41:00] Concept constantly that you need to regenerate as you go. And I think families that are traditional to the Amazon are still living in this way. And I, I find that so beautiful and so inspiring and, and we, you know, we, we aim to be guided by this continuously. 

[00:41:17] Chris: Yeah.

[00:41:18] Chris: Fantastic. Do these groups ever get curious about your life outside of the, the rainforest? Do, do they wonder what it's like in, in Lima or London? Do you ever get questions like that? 

[00:41:31] Rosa: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Like the, I think one of the most special encounters we had is, is, um, one that we had last year.

[00:41:37] Rosa: And so we had, um, spending the night with these smaller, really, really remote family. Um, the wife had come from, uh, one of the uncontacted tribes already many years ago when, um, they decided to form a family. They had never heard a radio before. That is how remote they are. And they, we had a, an international team.

[00:41:59] Rosa: So [00:42:00] there were some people, you know, from the UK, from the us, from the Caribbean, and a few other places. And the very first question is, describe me where you live, you know, and try to do that to someone who has never seen, you know, a, a tall building. And so the, one of our, our team members from the UK that lives in Manchester, in a really tall building in an apartment, was trying to describe what that looks like, you know, and then another team member that was living in the Caribbean at the time said that, that she really enjoyed swimming with sharks.

[00:42:32] Rosa: And then they were trying to describe what is a shark, you know, they see like a giant fish. So it kind of really expands even in your mind as to how do you define things and how do you explain, we are so used to seeing so much interculturality and then things that may not even be native to our country we're seeing to use.

[00:42:50] Rosa: Used to see it on the internet. How do you describe that to someone who's never seen it? That they, they need to imagine it with what they have around also, you know, and I, I think a [00:43:00] question that stayed with everyone was the person ask, do you have trees around? Because I like my trees around me. 

[00:43:07] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:43:08] Rosa: You know, when you think that to the basic, I am really lucky that whenever I am, wherever I'm in the world, I try to be around trees and nature as well.

[00:43:15] Rosa: But of course, many people live in the cities now and no, they do not have trees around. And he was quite sad about that, you know? Yeah. So it's really, really makes you think so much. 

[00:43:26] Chris: Does it makes me, can I gimme a bit of a, in the pit of my stomach that, 'cause you think, like you were so, so urban organized that, I mean, I, I'm not, 'cause I'm out in the sticks a little bit and I spend so much time in nature, but generally the Western world's, you know, it's too easy to, to get stuck in a concrete jungle and not have that access to nature.

[00:43:46] Chris: I mean, you, I. Going on a tangent here, but there was a start from someone I spoke to a while ago, but even in Scotland, in the inner city, it's like one in three kids have, have never seen the seaside, and we live on an island and [00:44:00] it's like, uh, and it's, yeah, that's just kinda made me think about that. But it's, it's crazy that, and it's also beautiful and in this day and age that we can still have that like true, like natural living, that true wilderness and that wonder about all this, you know, uh, capitalist nonsense that we have going on el elsewhere, elsewhere in the world.

[00:44:21] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:44:22] Rosa: There was a study that, um, that showed that in a lot of major cities now kids spend less than four minutes on average in contact with nature every day, less than four minutes. That is so shocking because so much of our circadian rhythm gets regulated by nature. So much of our wellbeing, of our health, of our mental development, I would even say in creativity.

[00:44:46] Rosa: Historically and evolutionarily has come in relationship with nature that Yeah, I do find it so scary and also still hopeful that you're saying, right, that that's still this almost kind of ancestral way of still being connected and [00:45:00] a little reminder that, you know, we could all use a little bit more of.

[00:45:02] Rosa: I think that's why people are feeling so disconnected, so ungrounded. 

[00:45:07] Chris: Yeah. And, and, and, yeah, and I'm a big propo, uh, supporter of that. You just get out, out into nature. And I'm a very connect when I'm out, I like to touch trees, not in a tree hugger type way, but I like to breathe it in and touch. And when I'm in the water, I like to, you know, I just like to, I like the sensory thing over and I think, I'm sure there's a scientific benefit from, from all that exposure, uh, as well.

[00:45:31] The Untapped Amazon: Giant Anaconda Mystery

[00:45:31] Chris: Can I jump back Rosa? 'cause it made me, when you were talking about Shark said, it made me think there's a story in the book. Is it Harry Buro? Your, one of your friends who's one of the expedition guides and his, what is the, the thing that he was scared of the doc Torah. Is it doctor or Doctor Torah, which was the snake 

[00:45:50] Rosa: doctor Torah.

[00:45:51] Chris: The that, that is frightening. I, I mean the, the fact that this giant, was it a giant Anaconda or something [00:46:00] that he was telling you the story, um, 

[00:46:01] Rosa: to be defined? To be defined what it is to be defined This, his story really unravels such a big rabbit hole in my head to this day. Um, and he's not the only one that has described this to me.

[00:46:16] Rosa: I will reveal that I've had so many other conversations, just kind of chasing what he shared with me a few years ago, and so many other people in different areas as well. Describe something similar. So I do find that fascinating and so intriguing. Um, unclear if he was an anaconda. I mean, most likely it was an anaconda that we just haven't described.

[00:46:37] Rosa: We even used to think that there was a specific kind of species. And then even within the last two years, learned there was another new species living in Ecuador. That was, you know, even larger than the one we knew before. But what he described was a snake that if he put both of his arms out there, stretch out as if he was hugging someone his fingers couldn't touch.

[00:46:58] Rosa: And that is [00:47:00] larger, way larger than anything we have scientifically documented. And we look back at, you know, animal evolution. We did used to have a giant kind of snake called Titanoboa hundreds of millions of years ago. But I, I do think it calls for something that in my head has, and, and you know, I mean in, in my colleagues, in my indigenous friends mind is that there may be this untapped fauna.

[00:47:25] Rosa: That leaves under the waters of the Amazon. And then we really haven't explored that massively because it's so hard with the muddy waters to try to study. It's already really difficult to study pink dolphins, and they are really, you know, a lot more approachable and visible and playful. So, yeah, that is a big question mark.

[00:47:46] Rosa: This giant snake is real. Is it notes? I would bet my money that it is, and yet we just haven't documented it yet. 

[00:47:56] Chris: Yeah, I, I, I, I mean for, if anyone's wondering what we're [00:48:00] talking about, it's covered in the book, so I recommend that you go and read the book. But yeah, to put that into context, you know, someone putting their arms around what they thought thought was a tree trunk in the water obstructing their boat.

[00:48:12] Chris: And I think his, his friend said they seen the snakehead pop up a few meters down in the water and then they realized that may have been a anaconda. So that is terrifying. What, what, what are you like when you're in the jungle in terms of or in the water? Do, do you get scared at all or apprehensive, considering what's lurks beneath the water?

[00:48:33] Rosa: It depends on the time of the, you also kind of need to know what to look for, uh, because for Anaconda specifically, if you are in the water and you see a swirl in the corner or like along the banks of the rivers, you know, be aware. But also to be, to be, you know, with that in mind, something happened to someone I know over the last few months, and this is a girl that has been living in the jungle for ages.

[00:48:56] Rosa: She knows the area. She's local, she's native, she walks in this [00:49:00] path all the time, cross a tiny little bridge with her dog every single day out of nowhere. Snake came out and beat her after 10 years of living in this space and doing this exact same walk every single day. Um, she was fine luckily. Uh, but I, I mean that really, I think shows the climate is changing the patterns of our animals so much in ways that it become an unpredictable.

[00:49:25] Rosa: So I mean, yes, I definitely do watch out. Uh, for, for swimming. I tend to kind of choose wherever, you know, pink dolphins are, or in the kind of shorter, smaller streams. Um, and, and then the same at night. We, some of our explorations have to happen at night by virtue of the work we do. And it, it is my favorite time in the rainforest.

[00:49:48] Rosa: Yeah. But at the same time, I am very aware that it is, you know, the animal's home and in the night is when many of them come out. 

[00:49:56] Chris: Yeah. You talk about 

[00:49:57] Bioluminescence in the Amazon Rainforest at Night

[00:49:57] Chris: the luminescence of some of the kinda organisms and, and that and the, and the, in the Amazon. What's that like as an experience when you see, um, obviously the cacophony of noise, but, you know, bringing, see some of these things light up.

[00:50:10] Chris: That must be a bit of an experience. 

[00:50:13] Rosa: I wish you can experience it. I mean, the best way I could describe it is I dream of going to space one day. Okay. Yeah. And I could only describe it like that. I felt like an astronaut. Yeah. Something I had never seen. And me, I've been going to the rainforest since I'm one.

[00:50:27] Rosa: I was there with colleagues that you know, have been born in the rainforest, have been there also their entire life, all of us, with all of this experience, it still felt as if it was our first time and feeling like that as an adult with all this experience of going in the rainforest. It was just so, so enlightening.

[00:50:45] Rosa: And we are starting a new project on that with a cama, young biologist that's gonna be leading it to document this in Peru. It's basically the idea that there is this hidden language of light that animals can communicate by having the property, [00:51:00] the capacity to blow or to bio fluorescence whenever you shine a light.

[00:51:04] Rosa: But in, in reality, you are in the deep, dark jungle, everything's dark, you shine your UV light and suddenly an animal responds back by shining back. I, I think everybody could experience it and, you know, you can buy a small UV light really inexpensive anywhere in the world. Go outside at night. 'cause I think there's a lot of things untapped.

[00:51:24] Rosa: For example, most scorpions in the world glow. If you shine a UV light that is already a really fun experience. Some things in trees like different microbes do too. So I encourage everyone to do it. 

[00:51:35] Chris: Yeah. What, what, what does your grandmother think of all this? 'cause you, what do you call your grandmother?

[00:51:40] Chris: Is the, the RIN or what does she think about all the what? Yeah, that's in and stuff in the, the Amazon. 

[00:51:48] Rosa: My grandma's terrified that I go to the jungle at night. She still tries to think that I don't do that. Um, but I, I mean, I, I, I think, you know, she. I don't know if she [00:52:00] quite comprehends how global our work is getting now, but I think she's just proud to see me happy and I think she's really proud that whenever I get to tell her that there is other indigenous people that are becoming scientists with our work, because I know that was always her dream, you know, to become a doctor and to be like in the educational space and science space.

[00:52:22] Rosa: So I think she, she, you know, she feels really proud of that and, and then just happy that I find fulfillment in what I do too. 

[00:52:31] Chris: Yeah, that's awesome. It's awesome. It's, it's so serendipitous. It really is. 

[00:52:35] Rosa's Proudest Moment in Amazon Conservation

[00:52:35] Chris: What are you most proud of? 

[00:52:37] Rosa: Gosh, I mean, I'm, I'm so grateful because it has been the, the most difficult journey.

[00:52:43] Rosa: There's been so many times that I've looked back and realized that jobs have turned down that I would be sitting very comfortable with a very high paycheck somewhere in a pharmaceutical job like a lot of my colleagues did. And, and yet I saw myself with no support, no trust from people, [00:53:00] no funding at some stages.

[00:53:01] Rosa: Um, and, and so it has a such hard way, it hasn't been that long. Um, and we are still a small organization, but when I see what we are able, what we're able to do and show, I think I just feel so grateful that there were people that believed in what we were dreaming in any capacity. Whether it was a small, like, yeah, you go, didn't doubt us or provided any kind of support.

[00:53:23] Rosa: And, and also, and the fact that we are, you know, that, that there is new indigenous people like. Once my grandmother, when she was young, would've dreamed that they could be part of science. Yes. And now they are. Yeah. And now, you know, hopefully that's only just the beginning. 

[00:53:37] Chris: Yeah. Well, I, I mean, thoroughly deserves it.

[00:53:39] Chris: I mean, the book aside, all the work and all the platforms that you're given for these voices and the roots that, that make it authentic is, is fantastic. And the recognition as well. You must be proud, you know, BBC's, top 100 women, National Geographic Explorer, all, all the good stuff that comes with it. You know, the, the initiative with the stingless bees and getting [00:54:00] that into law.

[00:54:00] Chris: It's, you know, it's groundbreaking stuff. What, what excites you about the future, Rosa, with all this and your initiatives. 

[00:54:10] Rosa: You're very kind by the way. You're very kind by the way. Thank you. I, I think every, all of the, all of the things, whenever something you know happens, I just, in a way, my brain just feels.

[00:54:19] Rosa: Responsibility that we're doing something and we have to keep doing better. What excites me the most is I feel we are only getting started. We've shown a model works, and that is just so surreal to me. We are small, we're independent. We were able to show the world that this model of work. Does generate results and it's doable.

[00:54:39] Rosa: And so now taking that into other projects, I mean, there's so much that is unstudied that our communities want to tap into. Medicinal plants work with giant armadillos, which are one of the rare and lesser studies animals in the Amazon tapers. I mean, even the idea of animal self medicating, which is a new project we're starting with Dr.

[00:54:58] Rosa: E Freeman. I mean, [00:55:00] there's just so much excitement. I feel like a child in a playground Yes. But also very aware that we have to do things really, you know, methodically and, and really well. Yeah. I, I just think there's, it's endless. And so I know, I'm aware I'm not gonna do it all in my lifetime, so I'm also very conscious to, to start bringing in people that could continue it.

[00:55:18] Chris: Yeah. Start to build a legacy. A legacy. And that's what the foundation will surely enable. I mean, uh, how much time do you spend in Peru versus the UK or wherever else? Are you, are you back and forth quite a bit? 

[00:55:32] Rosa: I am back and forth quite a bit. I mean, I was there just quite recently. I'm back here. Um, 'cause I also, you know, do work as a speaker and consultant and different things, and so I kind of have to just balance it as best as I can.

[00:55:46] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:55:47] Rosa: So, yeah, depending on when you talk to me, I may be in a different time zone, so I always just kind of clarifying that. But yeah, no, it's, it's fun. 

[00:55:54] Chris: Yeah. Excellent, excellent. So, I, I can't believe I've been on for almost an hour. This has just flown, [00:56:00] flown by and I've got so many things I could be asking and taking up your time with.

[00:56:04] Chris: But before we move into closing Traditions, Rosa, the book, the book's fantastic. I mean, we're not doing it justice. I would highly recommend people pick up, read it, and uh, and even listen to it. I've got the audio book and I've dipped in and out quite a bit as well to go back over and you, you narrate it as well, which not all authors do, which is great.

[00:56:23] Chris: So I would highly recommend What would you, what, and I love what Levion Wood said about this in the back of it. This beautiful book encourages a dialogue with nature that is all too often forgotten. And I couldn't have put that better myself, to be fair. But what would you, what would you want people to take away from this book?

[00:56:42] Chris: Why? Why? Why should people read it? 

[00:56:45] Rosa: Remember to be joyful and have fun in nature. And I think it's so simple and so human and so inherent to all of us, regardless of where you are, that it can add so much to not only your wellbeing and your day to day, but [00:57:00] also to a sense of purpose. And I think we could all use a little bit more of joy like that.

[00:57:05] Chris: Yeah. Awesome. T. Excellent. Uh, love it. I absolutely love it. So with that, I think we'll move into closing traditions. So, so there are three on the show, so paid forward Call to Adventure, and then some quick fire questions for a bit of fun before we close out. 

[00:57:21] Pay It Forward: Supporting Rainforest Conservation

[00:57:21] Chris: So starting with a pay forward, so an opportunity to raise awareness for a project, a charity to give a platform to.

[00:57:28] Chris: So what would you say Rosa, as a paid forward recommendation? 

[00:57:33] Rosa: So let me look it up here so I make sure I say it right. I'll mention too, um, there's lot Conservation Foundation. They do incredible work savings lots in Costa Rica and led by an incredible women. And then I would also call upon, uh, Cali Valenti, who's an incredible scientist that secured the rides for the Leatherback Turtles in Panama.

[00:57:53] Chris: Excellent. Fantastic. Fantastic. We'll get that, we'll get that linked out to any resources that can support those as [00:58:00] well. Perfect. So next, a call to adventure. 

[00:58:03] Call to Adventure: Reconnecting With Nature

[00:58:03] Chris: So a recommendation to get people active or outdoors into nature. Or having some adventure. So what would you say is a call to adventure for listeners or viewers or a call to adventure?

[00:58:15] Chris: So it's an opportunity just to recommend an activity or a place, someone to, to get people that are listening or viewing, uh, outdoors and active. So what would you say is a call to adventure? 

[00:58:28] Rosa: I would say walk barefoot on grass. Something so simple and it just reconnects you in a second. 

[00:58:35] Chris: Fantastic. So simple.

[00:58:37] Chris: That is, I love the simplicity of that. That is, uh, that is excellent. Excellent. So thank you. Right. So, so finally then, uh, 

[00:58:44] Quick Fire Round With Dr. Rosa Vasquez Espinoza

[00:58:44] Chris: 10 questions I've got that you haven't had visibility of. So it's just quick fire and for a bit of fun you can pass, but try not to, 'cause it's not fun if you pass. So question number one of 10, Rosa.

[00:58:58] Chris: If you could have a dinner [00:59:00] party with two guests, dead or alive, who would they be? 

[00:59:06] Rosa: My goodness. I mean, the writer Isabella Jenes, she's a Spanish writer that I just, I'm fascinated by the way she, she sees the world. Um, and I mean, Darwin I think will be, I'll be absolutely fascinated to have a chat about just what the world look like at that time.

[00:59:25] Chris: You're the first person to say Darwin on this show, considering the topics, which is, uh, which is excellent, but surprising. So number two, do you have a hidden talent? 

[00:59:35] Rosa: Hidden talent? Oh, goodness. Um, I, I used to dance professionally, um, and I don't anymore, most as a hobby, so I would say dancing. 

[00:59:45] Chris: Excellent.

[00:59:45] Chris: Excellent. Number three. What is the scariest or wildest experience you've ever had on an expedition? 

[00:59:53] Rosa: I got stung by multiple wasps at once and learned for the first time that I was allergic, and [01:00:00] that was quite scary. 

[01:00:01] Chris: Wow. Crazy. Number four, what is your favorite guilty pleasure snack or meal? When you go on an adventure, do you take treats?

[01:00:12] Rosa: This is gonna sound so basic, but yogurt and cereal. If I can have that anywhere. I know it's so hard to keep because of the refrigeration, but that is my guilty pressure. Yeah. 

[01:00:24] Chris: Yeah. Excellent, excellent. Uh, number five, if you could relive any moment from your life, what would it be? 

[01:00:33] Rosa: Traveling through the Amazon with my mom.

[01:00:35] Rosa: Uh, she's come a few times in the past. 

[01:00:39] Chris: Amazing. Number six. What is your favorite book? 

[01:00:44] Rosa: God, I have so many. I would say one that comes to mind right now is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, um, as just, I read it recently and it's quite talking about creativity in such a unique way. 

[01:00:56] Chris: So number seven, what is the biggest lesson you've learned [01:01:00] in the field?

[01:01:02] Rosa: Uh, the biggest lesson of learned in the field is not to take life for granted. Life is so short and fragile to, to make it count. 

[01:01:10] Chris: Excellent. Uh, number eight. What scares you still there? 

[01:01:15] Rosa: Sorry. Can you repeat what scares me? What, 

[01:01:17] Chris: oh, repeat again? So, uh, number eight, what scares you? 

[01:01:22] Rosa: Yep. I can hear you. 

[01:01:23] Chris: Yeah.

[01:01:24] Chris: Yeah. So, yeah, I'll do that again. So, so number eight, what scares you? 

[01:01:28] Rosa: I think what scares me is the idea that we just have grown so, so disconnected to what ancestral senses were, um, and what that would look like if we continue down that path. 

[01:01:41] Chris: Yeah. Excellent. Number nine, what makes you happy? 

[01:01:45] Rosa: Oh gosh. Um, I am a very simple person, so I try to find just joy in the, in the tiny things.

[01:01:51] Rosa: Whether I'm sitting down with my dog and have time to do nothing or I am walking on sand, actually sand on my feet, that makes me so happy [01:02:00] immediately. 'cause it means I must have had a really good time. 

[01:02:02] Chris: Excellent. Excellent. And then finally, number 10, what is the best advice that you have ever received?

[01:02:09] Rosa: To show up fully, to not hide any parts and, and I think really embracing that has changed my life. 

[01:02:16] Chris: Excellent. Excellent. That is very. Very profound. Excellent. Uh, and that's it. Yeah. That, that's, that says almost at the end. So that has been fantastic. Rosa. I really thank you for coming on and sharing, sharing everything today and allowing me to indulge my curiosities related to all your work and your book.

[01:02:37] Chris: It's been an absolute pleasure, uh, speaking to you today. 

[01:02:39] Rosa: Thank you so much, Chris. You've been wonderful. Thank you for the really great questions and so happy I was able to chat with you, topics that I haven't talked about before that I really was meant to. So thank you so, so much. 

[01:02:52] Chris: Yeah, that's been an absolute pleasure.

[01:02:54] Chris: So, before we wrap up, Rosa, where can everyone follow along about [01:03:00] all your projects, uh, yourself and your book? Where, where should we point people to? 

[01:03:06] Rosa: I think my Instagram is the easiest, Rosa v ESP Espinoza, and you can find links to my book and website, and then I just share kind of, you know, about the adventures that we're having quite constantly.

[01:03:17] Chris: Yeah. Excellent, excellent. And we'll get, we'll get all that listed, uh, when this goes live as well. Yeah, that's been fantastic, Rosa, thanks again for joining us today, and with that, I'll bring it to your close. 

[01:03:30] Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. For the show notes and further information, please visit adventure diaries.com/podcast.

[01:03:40] Announcer: And finally, we hope to have inspired you to take action and plan your next adventure, big or small, because sometimes we all need a little adventure to cleanse that bitter taste of life from the soul. Until next time, have fun and keep paying it forward.