Human Wise

Ep52: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work with Graham Allcott

• Helen Wada • Season 4 • Episode 52

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What if the real secret to high performance is not working harder, but treating yourself and others with more kindness at work?

In this episode of the Human Wise podcast, host Helen Wada sits down with Graham Allcott, author of Kind: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work and How to Be a Productivity Ninja, to explore how kindness, psychological safety and truly human leadership can transform the way we work. Graham shares why he believes “humans are weird,” why productivity is really about doing less, not more, and how an abundance mindset changes everything from our self-talk to the way we show up for others.

Together, Helen and Graham unpack the powerful links between kindness, productivity and commercial outcomes, from reducing stress and avoiding toxic productivity to creating teams that feel safe enough to speak up, challenge decisions and share bold ideas. They also explore the difference between being “nice” and being truly kind, why leaders need to slow down to notice the small moments that matter, and how we can all start by being kinder to ourselves first.

Topics Discussed

  • Human at work: why “humans are weird” and why that is our greatest strength
  • Kindness and productivity: how empathy, rest and psychological safety drive performance
  • Scarcity versus abundance: reframing “I am not enough” and the pressure to do more
  • The ROI of kindness: stories, science and why kindness is a strategic advantage
  • Nice versus kind: truth, grace and having the courageous conversations that matter

View extended shownotes here

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

 Ep52: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work with Graham Allcott

Ep52: The Quiet Power of Kindness at Work with Graham Allcott

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:28] Graham Kott's Background and Achievements[00:00:28] Introduction and Guest Welcome

[00:00:28] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of Human What. I'm absolutely delighted to have Graham Kott on the show with me this afternoon, this morning. It's, lunchtime here for us.

[00:00:39] Helen Wada: I came across Graham when he popped up on my LinkedIn and he won the leadership book of the year 2025 for his work with Kite, the Quiet Power of Kindness at Work. And I can say that off the tip of my tongue 'cause it's right behind you in your screen. Graham. So The menopause brain is, is kind of still there working.

[00:00:58] Graham Allcott: su is it the big [00:01:00] uh, the 

[00:01:00] Helen Wada: It's not. But I love it. 

[00:01:01] Graham Allcott: by me. 

[00:01:02] Helen Wada: I absolutely love it and I'm so delighted that we had this conversation We said, let's have a conversation with the listeners of human wise because being kind is fundamental in the world of work, but not necessarily realized as much as it could be.

[00:01:18] Helen Wada: Where I come from is very much. How can we make humanity and commercial reality blend together? to the human advantage is really your commercial advantage and being kind is very much part of that. And I absolutely love the book. We'll, we'll get more to it at the moment. But in terms of yourself, your author of multiple books Kind is your six book.

[00:01:41] Helen Wada: Including the global bestseller, how to be a Productivity Ninja, how to Have the Energy and How to Fix Meetings. We're gonna dive into all of that. You're the founder of Fin Productive, which since 2009 has been a professional development go-to for a variety of companies, including Amazon, British Airways, Disney, where I used to work [00:02:00] many years ago.

[00:02:01] Helen Wada: eBay and British Red Cross, you are also passionate about, about your voluntary work. And was co-founder of Interval and International Student volunteering Charity and the chief executive of student volunteering England. So such a wide range of experience, Graham, and so I'm delighted to have you on the show and have this conversation.

[00:02:20] Helen Wada: Welcome. 

[00:02:21] Graham Allcott: Yeah, lovely to be there 

[00:02:22] Helen Wada: talk about being human. 

[00:02:24] The Human Advantage and Personal Insights

[00:02:24] Helen Wada: Tell the listeners, like you on a little bit of the patter about sort of your commercial background, what you do, but who's the human behind Graham? 

[00:02:31] Graham Allcott: Yeah. I love your phrase, the human advantage because one of the things I talk about a lot is humans are weird I think a really important thing when you talk about productivity and also when you talk about kindness to.

[00:02:43] Graham Allcott: To just acknowledge that we all, we are all weird, we're all different. We all have our foibles and biases and you know, our, our weird little preferences for different things. So yeah, I'm a weirdo. Like, like everybody, else, what surprises a lot of people is I'm I'm quite [00:03:00] introverted. So for someone who makes most of my living you know, doing keynotes and workshops and being on stage and being looked at and having a personal brand and all that stuff, like I, that stuff, I can do it.

[00:03:14] Graham Allcott: And I really enjoy it when I'm doing it, but it really drains me. So I'm quite comfortable in, you know, solitude and my own skin. Hence writing six books. You kind of have to be 

[00:03:24] Graham Allcott: for 

[00:03:24] Helen Wada: Yeah. 

[00:03:25] Graham Allcott: then I have various like geeky weird passions. Like I'm very like heavy subscriber of mlb.com, which is major league baseball.

[00:03:35] Graham Allcott: So I'm like probably one of the biggest baseball geeks in the UK in terms 

[00:03:39] Graham Allcott: of number of games I get to and all that sort of thing. I DJ in my spare time as well. And I run a Sunday afternoon jazz dance session down here in Brighton. 

[00:03:51] Graham Allcott: So I have kind of various weird little little quirks and stuff sort of outside of work.

[00:03:55] Graham Allcott: But yeah, in terms of work, I've been an entrepreneur and author and [00:04:00] speaker for. Sort of 15 plus years. Yeah, my sort of starting point of my career was in the voluntary sector, student volunteering and yeah, volunteering is still something I'm very passionate about today. But yeah, over the last 15 years I've kind, I kind of fell into to the world about productivity because I had to fix me and so I fixed me, got good at it, and then everyone else wanted to know how I'd done it.

[00:04:23] Graham Allcott: Why do you answer your emails now and you didn't use to before and things like that? And so it was never the career plan, but it just seemed like suddenly it was a thing that everybody wanted from me. And there was just this kind of light bulb moment of, okay, I'm just gonna create a business around that.

[00:04:39] Graham Allcott: So 

[00:04:40] Graham Allcott: That was think productive. We're still going. We've got people all around the world. And yeah, it's, it's been a very Interesting journey with that business 'cause it's kind of allowed me to step outside of it really. So you've got brilliant managing director Elena, who runs it day to day. And then that allows me to focus on other weird giggy passions, kindness being the [00:05:00] latest and probably, you know, I won't say final, but we'll be the thing I'm focused on for a long time to come, I think.

[00:05:08] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: And 

[00:05:08] Helen Wada: I, I think it's got a, a very long trion in terms of the workplace and where we need to focus as a, as a country, as a nation, as a, as a global group of humans. You, you talk 

[00:05:22] Graham Allcott: Yeah. 

[00:05:22] Helen Wada: actually it's just, for me, it's about individuality. It's about inclusivity. It's about. No one size fits all, but recognizing everybody for who they are and enabling them to thrive in a way that suits them.

[00:05:38] Helen Wada: And I think for me, that's where leadership needs to shift the dial. It's about 

[00:05:45] Helen Wada: people 

[00:05:45] Helen Wada: tools and techniques, but it's not one size fits all. You know, we have the, the generations coming up and they're looking up and saying, you know, that's not me. 

[00:05:55] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Yeah. 

[00:05:56] Helen Wada: And, and so we need to lead in new ways. We need to give people [00:06:00]

[00:06:02] Helen Wada: ways 

[00:06:02] Helen Wada: of thinking of being and, and being 

[00:06:05] Productivity and Kindness in the Workplace

[00:06:05] Helen Wada: Which brings me to our first question, which I always ask the guests to kick us off, but what does being human at work mean to you? What does human at work mean to me? So yeah, we, we've talked about that a lot with think productive for many years. 

[00:06:20] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: One of. 

[00:06:21] Graham Allcott: The characteristics of a productivity ninja, which was my first book, is that a productivity ninja is human and not superhero.

[00:06:29] Graham Allcott: And so what that means is. If you apply lots of productivity techniques and you're suddenly, you know, super productive and you look like you're really organized when you rock up to meetings and you've, you know, you've read all the reports and the notes and all that sort of stuff, everyone will look at you like you have some kind of superhero special powers.

[00:06:50] Graham Allcott: But the reality is you don't because a ninja is just someone who is. a human being with good skills and good tools and a good mindset, and that's it. [00:07:00] So there's no secret sauce, there's no magical shortcuts, there's no hacks. It's just all about doing the simple things consistently and well. so the other thing about being a human and not a superhero is.

[00:07:11] Graham Allcott: that. Unlike superheroes who can you know, the, the plot of the movie can be going wrong until right at the last minute, and then miraculously a superhero with some kind of special power can pull it out of the bag. Humans don't have that. So humans have limitations. 

[00:07:26] Graham Allcott: What that means in terms of productivity is things like.

[00:07:30] Graham Allcott: Rest and breaks are not negotiable things. They're things that actually, if we don't recognize those limitations, then we put ourselves down into toxic productivity, into law of diminishing returns, into not actually getting favorable results from what we're doing. So the, in a way, the less we treat ourselves as human, the, the worse the outcome 

[00:07:51] Graham Allcott: and the more we treat ourselves as human, the best, the outcome.

[00:07:54] Graham Allcott: And it kind of leads into my work on, on kind. And this, this book kind the Quiet Power of [00:08:00] Kindness at Work because, you know, the, the thing about productivity and kindness is that there's such, there's such a link. And the link is that when you have teams. And when you invest in those teams through kindness and through empathy, and you create trust, and you create psychological safety, then people feel able to own their weirdnesses.

[00:08:22] Graham Allcott: People feel able to express their preferences, but also really crucially, you know, you might be in a meeting with your boss and your bosses. Definitely going down the wrong path with, with a decision. You feel able to call that out and say, Hey, have we thought about trying X, Y, z without, you know, sort of fear or worrying about whether there's a risk that you're taking there that's too far.

[00:08:45] Graham Allcott: So, you know, if you feel psychologically safe, you're able to, to raise the alarm. To contribute the more brave or interesting ideas that might be otherwise at the margins. And often those are the things that make organizations more productive, more [00:09:00] creative, more innovative. And so like, you know, lead leaders and managers would really do well to just think about this idea of psychological safety as just being really at the heart of high performing teams.

[00:09:11] Graham Allcott: And the first half of kind is really. sort of call to arms around that and just saying, actually, all of the science backs this up. And I wrote the first half of the book really with cynics in mind, thinking that lots of kind people would. Buy the book for people who they worked with, who they, you know, people who really believed in kindness would buy it for people who maybe didn't believe in that so much and be like, Hey, can we do it a bit more like this?

[00:09:36] Graham Allcott: And then the cynical person would be reading it. So I wrote the first half of the book with those people in mind and thinking, right? So how do I convince people who might be cynical? And you know, once you start to see those links between kindness and empathy and trust and then psychological safety, you start to see where kindness is actually really at the heart of, of good productivity.

[00:09:58] Helen Wada: it's interesting [00:10:00] the way that you link those two together, because for me. 

[00:10:04] Helen Wada: It's, 

[00:10:04] Helen Wada: what I've done with human wise, almost a different way linking those, the skills of psychological safety. So what I talk about is how the coaching skills, which are very much that empathy, the curiosity, the psychological safety, how do those translate into customer into relationships with external stakeholders.

[00:10:23] Helen Wada: There are a lot of people out there in the world that say productivity and kindness or humanness are at odds. With each. other. And the world needs us to grow and we need to do more. And we need to do more. And it's constant. And with all my work, with the coaching that I do with others around me, I see people at senior levels, at all levels where their diaries are just bad. There is no space to think.

[00:10:50] Helen Wada: And so what we are driving. And I think even post pandemic, it's got worse. But I welcome what you, you are seeing is that there's this [00:11:00] quest to do more and so we fill our time with things to do rather than being Yeah, yeah. Things to do. And also Things to buy, you know, things to feel guilty about.

[00:11:13] Graham Allcott: There's, there's a whole industry really around trying to push us into a scarcity narrative and away from an abundance one. And, you know, really a lot of what I talk about in kind what's underpinning it is that, you know, that tension between scarcity and abundance. So a scarcity narrative, if you are in the middle of a really busy day.

[00:11:37] Graham Allcott: And somebody either comes to you and says, Hey, I need your help. Or you notice in a meeting or you notice as you you know, as, as you're sort of in a conversation, Hey, somebody really needs this bit of help from me. You kind of have this crossroads in your head in that moment of like, shall I jump in here and help with this thing?

[00:11:54] Graham Allcott: Or shall I just hold back and not do that? 

[00:11:57] Abundance vs. Scarcity Mindset

[00:11:57] Graham Allcott: And for me, that's about abundance versus scarcity. So. If you have a scarce view of the world, you, you probably in that moment think, well, I'm really busy. There's not enough time, there isn't enough, I'm not enough. And so you hold back and when you're in an abundance narrative, you flip that.

[00:12:17] Graham Allcott: So in an abundance narrative, you say, well, there is enough time and there is enough and I'm enough. And actually there's enough that I'm able to give in that moment. And there's so much research that finds when. People jump into that abundance narrative and, and jump into being kind and taking action. Then what that leads to is lots of ripple effects and knock ons of lots of other kind things happening around them.

[00:12:42] Graham Allcott: So kindness begets Kindness 

[00:12:44] Graham Allcott: Kindness also begets empathy. And, and you get this kind of loop of kindness and empathy too. So it's like this, you know, this wonderful kind of mindset shift that you can create when you start to see that there is enough resources in the world to food and clothe and shelter [00:13:00] everybody several times over.

[00:13:01] Graham Allcott: And to not do that as ultimately a choice to society. And you can follow that all the way down to your individual personal choices. And, you know, the biggest. uh, Person that you're likely to be unkind to is yourself. You know, and so rewiring that narrative for you is a really important thing and you shouldn't feel guilty about it because when you start to develop more of a, an abundance mentality and less of a scarcity one, you are kinder to yourself.

[00:13:29] Graham Allcott: You role model that for you. Everybody else, role models that you're being kind to yourself. And so they can be kind to. Themselves and each other too. And then you start to create this mindset where what you're noticing as you go through the day is all of those kind acts, whether it's the thing that you're doing to yourself or someone else, and then you're just in that mindset to then do more of that.

[00:13:47] Graham Allcott: So, you know, I think that's very easy to say all that. But then you go on Instagram, right? And you scroll and you see that the world is 

[00:13:55] Helen Wada: Well, yeah. 

[00:13:56] Graham Allcott: you are not enough. You need more, you need to work harder, you [00:14:00] need to do this, you need to buy that. So and so has this. You don't have it. You know?

[00:14:04] Graham Allcott: And all of this stuff is just like, it's really pervasive and really, really pernicious. And so really a lot of what I'm talking about in kind comes back to how do you challenge that narrative? How do you change that scarcity narrative and rewire it more, you know, towards abundance? 

[00:14:21] Helen Wada: Yeah. it's music to my ears.

[00:14:24] Helen Wada: 'cause when I talk about human wise, so I base it around the mnemonic human and the H is how you so much show up. So what we talk about is how to lead for within and sell with confidential. You want to have better conversations with your clients potential But actually until we know who we are, Until we know what's important to us, until we really do that inner work on ourselves. And you talked about it at the beginning of this conversation, why did you get to a productivity conversation? Well, actually, you first did the work on yourself. And I think [00:15:00] we do all have to take a step back and say, what is the work we need to do on ourselves before we can lead and motivate others?

[00:15:07] Helen Wada: And it's not easy. 

[00:15:11] Graham Allcott: And what's the gift that you need to give yourself too, right? So that's the other thing with kindness is as soon as you say the word kindness, everyone starts to think, who do I sponsor? What do I take action on? How do I pay it forward with the parking meter? Like there's all these kind of cliches that people throw out.

[00:15:27] Graham Allcott: But really the first place to start with kindness is just yourself. And that might be working on yourself. It might also be less be, be being less harsh on yourself as well, right. 

[00:15:36] Helen Wada: Let's dive deeper into that a little bit, you know? Where this kind kindness came from being kind to yourself, because where do we start?

[00:15:44] Helen Wada: You know, the listeners are like, yeah, I get it, but I just don't have the time of the day. 

[00:15:47] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:48] Helen Wada: What, what would your advice to them be? 

[00:15:51] Graham Allcott: Well, you do have the time. Uh, You just do like, well, I can't say anything else on that, but 

[00:15:57] Helen Wada: what tactics so let's phrase a different way. [00:16:00] What tactics have you used to build?

[00:16:03] Helen Wada: I talk about a muscle So I talk about actually the moment you, you do things. So for example, this morning I went for a swim. I looked at my emails. I've got lots to do, but I thought, and then if you don't prioritize your health and go for a swim now, it won't happen. 

[00:16:18] Helen Wada: requires us to.

[00:16:20] Helen Wada: Take that leap of faith to know, 

[00:16:22] Graham Allcott: take that action, right? 

[00:16:23] Balancing Work and Personal Life

[00:16:25] Graham Allcott: I mean, I say I say to people like this, it's um, I have regularly sat at my desk and where, where I live, I'm just on the edge of the South Downs National Park in Brighton. So I've got lovely sort of woods and, and hills and stuff just behind my house.

[00:16:36] Graham Allcott: And I've regularly sat there sort of late morning and thought to myself, I wonder if I have time to go for a walk today. And I do that whole like abundance scarcity thing in my head. 

[00:16:48] Graham Allcott: And sometimes I even talk myself outta it and. 

[00:16:52] Graham Allcott: I know 

[00:16:53] Helen Wada: We all human, right? We're 

[00:16:54] Graham Allcott: They're all Cuban. I like, I'm not perfect with this stuff.

[00:16:57] Graham Allcott: Um, even though I, I talk about it [00:17:00] and write about it, I mean, in a way it's like knowledge is knowledge is the sort of last place prize with this stuff sometimes. 

[00:17:06] Graham Allcott: 'cause, isn't it? Because once you realize like how irrational you're being, it's like, oh, being rational again, It just helps.

[00:17:13] Helen Wada: Your. 

[00:17:14] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: every 

[00:17:15] Graham Allcott: Ignorance is bliss, Right. Often. But I will often sit there and have that debate in my head, like, can I afford to go for a walk at lunchtime? What I can say is, I have never, not once been for a walk, and at the end of that walk thought that was the wrong decision. 

[00:17:32] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: right? 

[00:17:32] Graham Allcott: I just think you have to like, you know, reframe these things in, in the way you think about it.

[00:17:38] Graham Allcott: I think what really helped for me, like really honestly, was. 

[00:17:42] Graham Allcott: I started Think Productive in 2009 and. You know, weirdly, a lot of the people who want to come on think productive workshops within our clients or people who've picked up Productivity Ninja and really loved it. And, you know, I've met loads of people over the years [00:18:00] who've you know, sort of thrust very well thumbed copies in my hand with like loads of post-it notes in and sort of told me stories about how that book was like really important to them or whatever.

[00:18:09] Graham Allcott: But all the people who, all the people who've had. Some affinity with productivity in Ninja, they're generally pretty productive people already. 

[00:18:17] Graham Allcott: right? They're generally like, they're generally people who are not lacking in that. And so what you often find with those people, and I've done, I, I've, had some really interesting experiences coaching people over the years who, they come to me because they, what they think they want is going faster on the hamster wheel because the speed they're doing is not 

[00:18:38] Graham Allcott: enough. And actually like, my determination is to give them the exact opposite of that and say, Hey, like if I remember this one conversation where I was coaching an entrepreneur, and like it really makes me emotional thinking about it. She was, she was running this, she was in New York, she was running this, um, amazing [00:19:00] organization that was helping refugees arriving in New York City.

[00:19:03] Graham Allcott: With nothing and you know, helping 'em to get networks and get set on their feet and stuff. But she was so obviously like burning herself out and we did this exercise where I was like, right, so let's get all of the commitments that you think you have just out of your head and we'll get 'em on to post-it notes and we'll start playing around with that.

[00:19:23] Graham Allcott: And we did it for about half an hour and she was just like, you know, she's just like shaking and just having this physical reaction to all this stress of the staff And She's like, I just can't do this anymore. I was like, well just get to the end and we'll get to the place where we've got it all out of your head and trust me, you'll feel better.

[00:19:42] Graham Allcott: And she sort of, she got it all out of her head and I could see her just go, oh, I can let go of that now. And this kind of sense of relief. And she kind of broke down and I just said to her, the world needs your, your best for the next 20 or 30 years. Not burnt out in the next two. So like, can we work on that?

[00:19:59] Graham Allcott: [00:20:00] It was just like, just this. I still really, I, I remember all of the physicality of that and like, you know, her body language in it and how I felt with it. And and I've had sev several similar ones to that. But I think there's always a tendency to feel like, I am not enough. I need to do more. You know, I need to, you know, and, and people have really, this is the human weirdness thing again for me is like the, the reasons people.

[00:20:27] Graham Allcott: Have that motivation are like so wild, right? So it's 

[00:20:32] Graham Allcott: like, 

[00:20:32] Helen Wada: yeah. 

[00:20:33] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Yeah. 

[00:20:33] Graham Allcott: Like I'm trying to impress my dad, you know, who never really told me that he loved me. Right. Or I'm trying to impress you know, this friends that I don't speak to anymore or like, you know, I'm trying to make everybody around me proud.

[00:20:50] Graham Allcott: It's like they're proud of me now, like. Can we just, just actually let that land, you know? So there's just like often quite strange. [00:21:00] Motivations behind people having a sense of, you know, workaholism or toxic productivity and all of that. But weirdly, coming back to your question, like I found that just really helpful to just be around that so much in the 

[00:21:13] Graham Allcott: last. 

[00:21:14] Helen Wada: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Graham Allcott: 10, 15 years. 'cause it's, in a way, it is like a bit of a canary in the coal mine. Like it, if I start to feel like I'm on that path, then I kind of know, I, I just kind of know the map a little bit. I know the signs a little bit and I know how to sort of step off it. I mean, I've worked a four day week for, you know, the best part of 15 years.

[00:21:32] Graham Allcott: I'm fairly boundaried around evenings and weekends Uh, and I, and I do. uh, I fill a lot of that time with my geeky passions, you know, baseball and DJing and 

[00:21:42] Graham Allcott: Pokemon one. 

[00:21:44] Helen Wada: you love doing. 

[00:21:45] Graham Allcott: Yeah. And that, 

[00:21:46] Helen Wada: you love doing. and And 

[00:21:47] Helen Wada: that's, 

[00:21:47] Graham Allcott: the, that's the thing is that I think if you create, if you concentrate on creating a life that's full of abundance rather than just work that's full of abundance.

[00:21:56] Graham Allcott: 'cause work that's some of the full of abundance is [00:22:00] toxic productivity, how to get rich quick YouTube videos, isn't it? And 

[00:22:04] Helen Wada: it's stepping out of that, that purpose piece I talk a lot about, you know, a few years ago particularly, you know, purpose was really on that agenda, but, but for me, that's. For a lot of people, it's too big a question.

[00:22:14] Helen Wada: You know, we can't align exactly what we're doing to this Golden North And and for me, actually, we help people to join break down, or what does it mean to me? 'cause you can fill your life with different pockets that serve you in different ways. When you talk about voluntary work that you do, the music that you laugh, the baseball that you watch.

[00:22:36] Helen Wada: Our walk is one element of that. But it doesn't have to be this whole encompassing, everything I do is going to save the world because clearly 

[00:22:47] Helen Wada: reason for adding 

[00:22:51] Helen Wada: and serving Then actually you can find a way that you talk about, you know, I'm Enough and in in the book I talk about asking [00:23:00] yourself the question, am I enough?

[00:23:02] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:02] Graham Allcott: Yeah. 

[00:23:03] Helen Wada: The power of a question forces us to think and sometimes, you know, I'm enough or I'm not enough, and actually, am I enough? Do you know what Hmm. Actually Yeah. 

[00:23:16] Helen Wada: its YNZ. 

[00:23:17] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Z 

[00:23:18] Graham Allcott: and I think I think the answer should always be yes to that question, but I think having it as a question.

[00:23:24] The Practice of Kindness

[00:23:24] Graham Allcott: Is, is just a really helpful practice, you know, and, and I talk about in kind that kindness is a practice. So one of the, one of the myths that I dispel with it is this idea of, you know, kindness being identity. You know, so I say kindness is not actually a noun, it's a verb. And when we think of kindness as being.

[00:23:46] Graham Allcott: Our identity. We get to hashtag be kind and we get to, I am a kind leader and stuff like this, and obviously that's just not objectively true, like you're as kind as your last kind act or your next kind act. [00:24:00] But every, every kind person has the propensity to be unkind and vice versa. But what's fundamental is that kindness is a practice.

[00:24:08] Graham Allcott: You know, just like writing is a practice, just like yoga is 

[00:24:10] Graham Allcott: a 

[00:24:10] Helen Wada: Yep. 

[00:24:11] Graham Allcott: And how you practice, I think, is by bringing your awareness to it as often as possible. And just trying to get better at it and trying to, try to, when you notice that moment, you know, I call it in the book the Gap, and it's the gap between thinking about making someone's day and actually making someone's day.

[00:24:27] Graham Allcott: And often in your day you see the gap. And the gap might not be open for very long, by the way. So if you're in a meeting and. you're on agenda item three, and you realize that you have a really big opportunity and even a responsibility in this moment, to like. Put someone else's work who's in the room on a pedestal and say, Hey, this person's done great work on this.

[00:24:48] Navigating Opportunities for Kindness

[00:24:48] Graham Allcott: Well, you better say that before the chair of the meeting says, right. We're onto agenda item four now, because if you get to agenda item four, you've missed it. Right? So the gap is often like a window that is [00:25:00] dynamically closing on you and you've got to jump through into it you know, before the time runs out.

[00:25:05] Graham Allcott: You know, it's like if you're on the tube and, you see somebody who needs the priority seats and all the seats are taken, and you have a little moment where if you stand up really quickly, that person will get your seat and you, you know, you can offer them your seat. If you don't do it, and then it goes from one stop to the next stop, and then you stand up and go, do you want my seat?

[00:25:25] Graham Allcott: It's a bit like, oh, well, now are you gonna offer my seat? Like suddenly it's 

[00:25:28] Graham Allcott: more awkward, it's more difficult. The gap's kind of closing often. And so practicing kindness, whether it's to yourself or other people, is about when you recognize that little opportunity to be kind, you have to just jump into it as, as quickly and as wholeheartedly as possible and almost like not think about.

[00:25:48] Graham Allcott: The negative consequences of, of being kind. And there are some, right? So kindness is not free. It does take time and it takes investment and it takes often a bit of inconvenience on, on your part. 

[00:25:59] Barriers to Kindness and Social Awkwardness

[00:25:59] Graham Allcott: [00:26:00] And the biggest barrier, there was a study that looked at. Barriers to kindness by the University of Sussex.

[00:26:06] Graham Allcott: And what they found the biggest barrier to kindness was was the idea that your kindness would be misinterpreted. So just this sort of sense of, I'm doing something kind, but actually, and then the person turns around and says, well, I didn't ask you to do that. 

[00:26:21] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: And 

[00:26:22] Graham Allcott: yeah, it's it's six 69%. On the global survey and 75% if you just count the Brits.

[00:26:30] Graham Allcott: So the Brits are even more socially awkward than everyone else. But yeah, you've got to really jump in to that opportunity for kindness when it comes and practice doing that and not be aware of some of those more sort of negative, um, you know, sort of consequences that, that you, that you're worried might 

[00:26:48] Graham Allcott: result. yeah. 

[00:26:50] The Importance of Presence and Awareness

[00:26:50] Helen Wada: You, I'm gonna pick up on a word of awareness again that you, you mentioned there, because actually it again links back to the coach skills that we need [00:27:00] to have that awareness because actually some of the higher skills of coaching is like 

[00:27:05] Helen Wada: You need to be sensing in the moment.

[00:27:07] Helen Wada: You need to be very present in these conversations because going back to your productivity if your mind is on other things, if your mind is on the next meeting or the next conversation or what you've just come from, you are not fully present and aware. And therefore you are likely to miss those small and closing opportunities to make the biggest impact.

[00:27:30] Helen Wada: And I think for me. Those are some of the skills. You know, we working in an AI world, goodness, we've been talking about AI 2025, but, and there are some brilliant use cases that it's gonna help us be more productive. But for me, that is about then how do we free up the time to be more human in the moment so that we can be truly focused.

[00:27:53] Helen Wada: Because unless we're present, unless we're aware, unless we are reading the room, unless we're eyeballing. What [00:28:00] everybody else is going on for everybody else. And that's virtually and in person. We're gonna miss those opportunities and that can be, again, is a leading opportunity or is it whether we're trying to develop a new commercial 'cause if you are not sensing what's going on for the other parties, parties, then you are missing a. trick. 

[00:28:20] Graham Allcott: Absolutely. 

[00:28:21] Slowing Down to Be Kind

[00:28:22] Graham Allcott: One of the, one of the principles in the book is slow down. 

[00:28:26] Graham Allcott: And what I say underneath that principle is the biggest source of accidental unkindness is busyness. 

[00:28:34] Graham Allcott: So 

[00:28:34] Graham Allcott: it's not. This person's an evil person.

[00:28:37] Graham Allcott: It's not this person's trying to screw me over. It's just they were busy. They just didn't notice. They didn't see, and We, and we all do that, you know, we all miss these opportunities when we're rushing, when we're stressed, when we're in that scarcity mode and not in abundance mode. And, and that's why it's a practice, that's why it's a verb, you know, because.

[00:28:58] Graham Allcott: We can all be busy. We can [00:29:00] all, we can all be that person in that moment who, who misses the gap, who doesn't see the opportunity for kindness. And yeah, it's all about slowing down. And I think that comes back to why, you know, a lot of what you're saying and a lot of you know, the, the link I was talking about between productivity and kindness too is that we we're so, we are so kind of.

[00:29:24] Graham Allcott: You know, like brainwashed and conditioned into going faster and being busier and more, and more that we actually lose sight of the benefits of doing a bit less and making space for what matters and really focusing on the stuff that counts rather than trying to do a hundred things. and that's, yeah, there, there's some really interesting contradictions in, of what I've, a lot of the work I've done around productivity and one of them is productivity is about saying no, not yes. And it's about doing less, not more. 'cause only when you do less can [00:30:00] you really focus on the right things. 

[00:30:03] Helen Wada: And I get it, and I, you know, wholeheartedly agree with you, but I'm gonna throw a challenger because I was having a, I hosted a breakfast this week and we were talking about human-centered leadership.

[00:30:13] Helen Wada: We were talking about how can we blend humanity with commerciality. Because for me, until we get to a point where we could turn this into numbers. we, We we're constantly fighting. There are people that believe it, but there's also 

[00:30:31] Helen Wada: and I still want my 

[00:30:34] Measuring the ROI of Kindness

[00:30:34] Helen Wada: From your perspective, you talk about, you know, how con kindness becomes a strategic advantage, but how do we measure it?

[00:30:42] Helen Wada: You know, one of one of the people said, what gets measured gets done. So we, do, how can we measure in the commercial world how have kindness so that we. Are starting to do less and are more productive with what we 

[00:30:56] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Yeah, 

[00:30:57] Graham Allcott: there's, there's two answers to that. [00:31:00] There's the, there's the flippant one and then there's the scientific one.

[00:31:03] Graham Allcott: So the flippant one is dunno if you come across it, like, called Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary v on YouTube. And it like. 

[00:31:09] Helen Wada: a new one for me to look I've got hundreds of books, but that's 

[00:31:12] Graham Allcott: So he, I'm not a massive fan of, of some of what he does, but he does have this really funny thing where.

[00:31:20] Graham Allcott: uh, Someone said he, so he talks about kindness and he said, someone says to him, what's the ROI of kindness? And he says, he says, people ask me, what's the RO of kindness? And I just say, well, okay, what's the ROI of your mom? And the idea of like, in a sense, if, when, you, when you think about your mom, like you just think about.

[00:31:44] Graham Allcott: You know, like you, you have so many sort of thoughts and emotions just in your heart around that. And just like the, the love and the care that your mom hopefully has shown you over so many years is just like so ingrained in you [00:32:00] that in a way, ROI just becomes such an irrelevant question because you would do anything for your mom, right?

[00:32:06] Graham Allcott: So that's, that's the flipping way of dealing with it. But I think to. To, to play that. So I, I think it's the wrong game, but to play them at that game anyway. Let's talk about the game of the numbers. The game of the numbers for me is all of the studies and there's loads of them quoted in the, the first half of, of kind.

[00:32:25] Graham Allcott: Which really looks at the science of kindness and really looks at why kindness. at work's important, but what it, what it shows you is that when is that if you want psychological safety at work. kindness and empathy are basically the the first two traits that you need to have more psychological safety at work.

[00:32:42] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: And when you have psychological safety at work, what it finds is the most psychologically safe organizations are the most productive, the most profitable, innovative, creative. They have the best retention levels, they have the best engagement levels, and also happiness goes up in those organizations.

[00:32:58] Graham Allcott: Kindness [00:33:00] also when you, when you're either receiving kindness or giving kindness, it will lower your cortisol levels, so you're 23% less stressed. Just by being around kindness and when we talk in. In the corporate world about wellness and you know, and wellbeing and engagement and all of these buzzwords, a lot of it really comes down to how do you lower stress levels.

[00:33:24] Graham Allcott: People spend a lot of money and believe me, I've been in a lot of corporate wellness days where they've brought me in to talk to 'em about productivity on a day. That's about wellness. And I go, okay, well I'm gonna talk to 'em about how to do less stuff and uh. And, you know, and to slow down because that's actually what's gonna move the needle here.

[00:33:44] Graham Allcott: And remarkably they don't kick me out, but. When you talk about all of that stuff, then, you know, kindness and empathy are at the heart of, of giving you all those results. So if you have to have a results based conversation about why is kindness important in your organization, [00:34:00] then you know, by all means you, you can win that argument with, with the science that's available.

[00:34:06] Graham Allcott: But I also think it's. It's kind of irrelevant too, because there's something bigger than what we're doing. You know, humans are human beings as well as human doings, and I think there's something bigger than just thinking about it in terms of like pounds, strings and pens. 

[00:34:22] Helen Wada: I think, I think you are. I think you're right. I, think coming with chartered accountant by trade and coming from that commercial world I, I hear where you're coming from.

[00:34:30] Helen Wada: I think for me. There are also ties, and I go back to that top and bottom line. I go back to growing our customer base. I go go back to creating those relationships with external parties that you need to collaborate with. 

[00:34:43] Helen Wada: The skills that we are going to need for that in the future. Are the human centered skills?

[00:34:49] Helen Wada: They 

[00:34:50] Kindness as a Marketing Strategy

[00:34:50] Helen Wada: are. 

[00:34:50] Graham Allcott: I tell you a little, 

[00:34:51] Graham Allcott: can I tell little story about kindness as marketing strategy? 

[00:34:54] Helen Wada: Yeah, absolutely. Please 

[00:34:56] Helen Wada: do. 

[00:34:56] Graham Allcott: So here's another way to, and mean. this is also the thing is [00:35:00] there's a really I important thing around kindness, which is authenticity. 

[00:35:05] Graham Allcott: And that's difficult to measure because I think people smell inauthenticity from a mile off.

[00:35:12] Graham Allcott: So it's difficult to know exactly how to sort of gauge that or measure it, but it is there. And so when you start to talk about kindness as like a strategy or like when people get a sense that someone is giving to get right, they're giving now to get later or whatever, then I think people are turned off by it.

[00:35:31] Graham Allcott: But kinder organizations and. Organizations that have kinder relationships with their customers as well as kinder relationships, relationships with their staff do succeed. So one example of that little story is, um. Timson who very famous around what they do. 

[00:35:50] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: do. Yes. 

[00:35:51] Graham Allcott: I interviewed James Timson, their CEO for the book and a couple of other people there, and they've got this lovely story, which is a guy walks into a [00:36:00] Timson store.

[00:36:01] Graham Allcott: Now, bear in mind, Timson are the biggest UK retailer by stores in the uk. But they're also, most of their stores are characterized by one or two members of staff. So every single member of staff is the living and breathing embodiment of a whole store. You know, if you think about it in that way.

[00:36:18] Helen Wada: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:36:19] Graham Allcott: And they empower their staff by saying, okay, just look out for opportunities to be kind as you go through the day. And if you see ways that you can be kind and it costs you a bit of money, take it out the till, do it. And you have our blessing to do that. So Guy walks into a timson store.

[00:36:38] Graham Allcott: He's got his daughter with him. His daughter has a prosthetic limb. And the prosthetic limb has broken. you know, you can see where this story's going, right? Where the 

[00:36:48] Graham Allcott: guy is like totally stressed. He's like, the NHS is gonna take six weeks to fix this. You know, like my daughter's really upset. You know, what do we do?

[00:36:56] Graham Allcott: And it turns out that you can fix prosthetic limbs with the [00:37:00] same machine as you used to fix shoes. And so the guy behind the counter fixes this limb up. 

[00:37:05] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: up. 

[00:37:06] Graham Allcott: It takes like 10 minutes or whatever. 

[00:37:08] Graham Allcott: The dad is there with his credit card just going like, you know, how much do I owe you? Like, this is amazing.

[00:37:15] Graham Allcott: And of course the, the Timson employee just says, that's on us. That's free. Guess where that guy goes? Every time he needs keys. Cut forever. But also think about how many people did he tell that story to? 

[00:37:30] Graham Allcott: How many dinner parties have heard that story? How many times have I told that story on stage?

[00:37:34] Graham Allcott: How many people have listened to me tell that story on stage and they've told it to other people? And the ripple effects of 

[00:37:40] Graham Allcott: that one moment where one guy saw the gap and he thought, I'm gonna jump through that. Rather than, I'm gonna take that step back. So this is something that Timson do. Like over and over and over again.

[00:37:54] Graham Allcott: They're all also really famous for employing lots of ex-offenders and giving people second chances [00:38:00] in their, in their work. They have incredibly kind policies like pet bereavement days and take your your son or daughter's first day of school morning after, go and take the pictures day.

[00:38:11] Graham Allcott: You know, they have all these kind of policies and stuff around it too, but they're, it's just master storytelling and when so much of branding. Is online and polished. And you know, so much of it is in this kind of thing that you can scroll past when someone tells you a story like that, that just like hits you right in the heart.

[00:38:31] Graham Allcott: It's like the best, that's the best connection you can possibly make as a brand with any human. And through kindness, Tim Percent are making that connection with people like day after day, just with like simple little things like that. So, you know, when people say what, you know, what's the bottom line, what's the ROI.

[00:38:49] Graham Allcott: Does it meet the numbers? Like, tell me how much you have to spend on marketing to like, to get the same effect as a guy using machine that timson already [00:39:00] to mend a thing that he's capable of mending and giving it back to someone like, it's just, it, to me, it's like. It's so simple and there's loads of other studies that have looked at, there's like a really lovely study that I've put in the book around a baker's shop where they just empowered the staff to just give away free products like every day.

[00:39:17] Graham Allcott: And it's like people have different ways of doing it, but what was really interesting was the customer spent more. also all of the staff felt more engaged in their work, so it cost them pennies every day to make a few extra loads of bread and give 'em away. But just the effects of that for everybody else, just absolutely huge.

[00:39:36] Helen Wada: and it all comes back to, it comes back to being human, right? It comes back to that one person in that shot that recognizes other human beings, has the confidence. To maybe step out their comfort So, and and offer something up, step into kindness. And actually we can build a more human We [00:40:00] can build a working world that has got growth at the center of it productivity, but actually it's human and kindness at And I think, you know, that's where this whole conversation, there's so much richness there, 

[00:40:14] Helen Wada: it's about coming back to being who you're Taking time to understand what's important to you, what makes a difference to you, and how can you serve and help others.

[00:40:27] Helen Wada: And I think if there are more people beating that drum and looking at this and saying, how can we be more kind? How are we more human in the world of work? actually we can start to shift the dial. And that's, I know you're passionate about it. That's at the heart of where I'm at with the human advantage with human wise let's all build a more human working world together.

[00:40:50] Helen Wada: know, the more of us that talk about this. 

[00:40:52] Graham Allcott: I love that phrase. You use the human advantage as well. 'cause it really speaks to me of the word that kept coming up when I was writing kind was [00:41:00] the word dignity. So much of it really comes back to just. Like recognizing and seeing people as they are and giving them the dignity of, of whatever experience, you know, and you can have.

[00:41:13] Graham Allcott: And I told, told stories in the book, you know, I interviewed general Stanley McChrystal, who was the, the head of the the US Armed Forces, and he was sacked by Barack Obama. And he said, you know, Barack Obama, you know, brought me into his office. We both knew I was gonna get fired. And he said, what I will say is that.

[00:41:33] Graham Allcott: You know, Obama could have made that day much worse for me than he did. And actually I left with this real feeling of, you know. 

[00:41:41] Graham Allcott: is the dignity of, of a leader. You know, that he's just given me this really difficult news, but he's done it in the most empathetic way possible. He's really kind of spoken to my need for dignity and just everybody's kind of leaving in a more dignified way.

[00:41:55] Graham Allcott: And yeah, I just, I just kept coming at that word so much as I was [00:42:00] writing the book, is that we are often part of. You know, systems or processes that because of busyness just become like dehumanizing. And yeah. When we get back to that, that dignity and humanity and, and kindness, you know, things can be very different.

[00:42:16] The Difference Between Nice and Kind

[00:42:16] Helen Wada: And, and what's come up for me as I'm just thinking back to your book and you, you've got a great piece on, you know, the difference between being nice and being kind and I think, you know. None, neither of us are talking about, you know, being softly, softly hit. It's not just about being nice. Sometimes we have to have constructive conversations.

[00:42:36] Helen Wada: Sometimes we, and actually being kind is being honest. 

[00:42:40] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Yeah. is 

[00:42:41] Helen Wada: being really open with people and sharing perspectives that maybe might be difficult to hear, but actually are serving the other person. And I think again, it comes back to. 

[00:42:52] Helen Wada: who you are and knowing the person in front of you and getting curious about where they're coming from.

[00:42:58] Graham Allcott: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I feel [00:43:00] like I've been talking lots about abundance and lots of the stuff that might be a little bit more sort of hippie. woowoo mu must be 'cause I'm in Brighton today. But yeah, between nice and kind is a really important one. And the difference between nice and kind.

[00:43:12] Graham Allcott: Often they're used in interchangeably. I think. Nice is often the thing that gives this kind of work a bad rep and a bad name is 'cause Nice can often be seen as weak. Um,

[00:43:24] Graham Allcott: the difference between nice and kind is about truth. So I, I define kindness as it's about truth and grace. delivering the truth.

[00:43:35] Graham Allcott: It's recognizing that there's a truth, that somebody's in need or it's delivering the truth to somebody that. Something they really need to hear, but doing it in a way that is as graceful and dignified as possible. So when you bring that truth and deliver it with grace that's kind often what happens with Nice is nice is just let's all just get along.

[00:43:56] Graham Allcott: let's shirk the truth in service of just let's all get [00:44:00] along. And so nice often ends up being truth less and you know, it can end up being quite sickly sweet and quite false 

[00:44:09] Helen Wada: and also unproductive. Right. Because actually if we are not having the right, if we're not getting to the nub of the questions that the amount of times I see wasted 

[00:44:17] Helen Wada: time 

[00:44:18] Graham Allcott: my God. Yeah. That, 

[00:44:19] Helen Wada: having conversations that don't need to be had, that if you had the right conversation up front, you would've saved hours and hours of conversation and work. For fear of. I think, you know, there's the, that link back to this is really important and we do need the psychological, you need to create the psychological safety to be able to have those conversations.

[00:44:41] Helen Wada: Just as you described Barrett there, you know, you create a safe space. Then actually gives you. 

[00:44:49] Helen Wada: sort Of the opportunity to have these important sometimes difficult conversations. 

[00:44:55] Graham Allcott: Yeah, for sure. You know, and so you can, you can fire somebody [00:45:00] kindly, right? You can give really difficult feedback kindly.

[00:45:04] Graham Allcott: And it's about having created that trust and that psychological safety. Probably, probably through lots of very small interactions, first to get. 

[00:45:13] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: to get mm-hmm. 

[00:45:14] Graham Allcott: Everybody into a place where they're, they feel able to raise the alarm or say the difficult thing or to have the slightly tense conversation. And sometimes you need language around that.

[00:45:24] Graham Allcott: So I think productive when we do away days. Elena r MD brings she brings this little bag full of little plastic giraffes. like zoo giraffes. 

[00:45:33] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Yeah, like, like 

[00:45:34] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: the kitty 

[00:45:35] Helen Wada: where we had 

[00:45:36] Graham Allcott: Yeah. Yeah. And uh. so she puts the bag on the table and then basically the idea is if you feel like you want to reward someone for sticking their neck out, you get a giraffe out and you You have these moments where someone says the brave thing. and Then someone else would get like, just go into the bag, get like five giraffe out and just like throw it at the person. Yes. You know? 

[00:45:57] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: Or like you. 

[00:45:58] Graham Allcott: So, but it is just this, you know, [00:46:00] this really simple little signifier of, of permission. And I think sometimes you, you just need either a little bit of humor or you need just a little bit of safety around that, you know.

[00:46:10] Graham Allcott: The, the real plastic one, when you think about psychological safety, you know, it's used a lot now as a, a bit of a, a buzzword in HR circles and stuff, but if you've ever been in any brainstorming session, ever. You've probably heard a facilitator use the phrase, okay, everybody, no idea is a bad idea.

[00:46:26] Graham Allcott: Let's go. And that in one sentence is just like, right, so everyone can say the risky idea. Everyone can say the rubbish idea. And actually what we care about more is that you participate and that you jump in rather than you have something that's perfectly formed. Now is not the time for perfectly formed, but just you can say that in that one sentence, no idea is a bad idea.

[00:46:46] Graham Allcott: Let's go. And you just create psychological safety just in that phrase. And so it doesn't have to be complicated. And often how it's built is just lots of tiny little things that make things easier. Another one that [00:47:00] Elena always used to have was, when we had a, an office that we were all sat in together.

[00:47:04] Graham Allcott: She had a little, um. China cat that lived in her desk drawer and when she needed like heads down time, like she's working on a spreadsheet or something and she didn't wanna be interrupted, she would just get the China cat out and put it on the desk. And so again, like that's just a really. Simple and fun way of having a conversation that says, do you mind not interrupting me for the next half an hour?

[00:47:27] Graham Allcott: Which is a slightly more tense conversation when you just go straight to the truth, whereas you do with that little bit of grace. 'cause it's more playful, it's more interesting. So just like, there's loads of little things like that. And there's sort of scattered around the book. Just little stories of just ways that you can bring a little bit more of that grace to your truth and just, and just make it kind.

[00:47:45] Graham Allcott: Yeah. 

[00:47:46] Final Thoughts on Kindness and Humanity

[00:47:46] Helen Wada: We could talk for hours. I'm conscious of time what a rich conversation. I always leave these conversations with one topic tip. we've covered so many I have in the course of the last 40 minutes or so. What would be your one top tip? [00:48:00] for people listening And then I'm gonna ask you what's the one question you had to ask them to reflect on?

[00:48:05] Helen Wada: Because reflection is a really important, I know you talk about in your book, I talk about it in human wise, but reflection is really important. 

[00:48:12] Graham Allcott: So I'll, I'll do both on, on a very similar theme then. So, the top tip, which we kind of talked on when we were talking about scarcity and abundance at the beginning is you need to slow down and kindness starts with you.

[00:48:29] Graham Allcott: So, you know, when you slow down, you start to realize that you need you, you start to notice the things that you need, and when you can give yourself the things you need, you'll be in abundance mode, not scarcity mode. So, don't ever feel guilty for self-care and slow down and give yourself what you need.

[00:48:48] Graham Allcott: So that's my top tip. That is the starting point for all kindness is being kind to yourself first. And another question. So I'll, I'll, I'll sort of make this question on a similar theme, [00:49:00] really. So the question is just a really simple one. How can I make space for what matters? 

[00:49:07] Helen Wada: Thank you.

[00:49:08] Helen Wada: And thank you for joining me today. If listeners have enjoyed our conversation, want to find you in the book, where should they go? 

[00:49:16] Graham Allcott: Can I just say I've loved this conversation, Helen? Honestly, like, I have done a lot of podcasts over the last year and yeah, your, your style of questioning and are kind of 

[00:49:24] GMT20251204-120743_Recording_gallery_1280x720: of

[00:49:25] Graham Allcott: Uh, sort of kindred spirit with the whole human advantage thing.

[00:49:28] Graham Allcott: So, yeah, just wanna say thank you first. where can people connect? So if you go to graham co.com/links, that's a page on my site with just like everything I'm doing, just links to stuff basically. Um, So graham.com/links, And I would say kind is available in all good bookshops. And the bad one

[00:49:52] Helen Wada: I said again more. Thank you for coming on the show. Wishing you a wonderful run up to festive and I hope our hearts [00:50:00] cross in person in 2026. 

[00:50:01] Graham Allcott: Pleasure. Me too. Thanks Adam. 

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Helen Wada

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