Ep58 - The Human Side of Fatherhood at Work with George Gabriel

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What does it really mean to support people in bringing their humanity to work? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by George Gabriel, co-founder of The Dad Shift, a UK campaign mobilising fathers to advocate for better paternity leave and greater gender equality in the workplace.

Together they explore how fatherhood, leadership and workplace culture intersect. George shares his perspective on why supporting fathers at work is not just a social issue but a leadership and organisational one. From challenging outdated policies to encouraging men to actively participate in equality conversations, this episode highlights how workplaces can evolve to better support families while strengthening performance and trust.

At the heart of the discussion is a powerful idea: when organisations enable people to show up as human beings, not just employees, everyone benefits.

Topics Discussed

• The evolving role of fathers in modern workplaces
• Why paternity leave policies matter for equality and performance
• The connection between leadership, trust and human-centred workplaces
• The impact of parenthood on leadership perspective and decision making
• How workplace culture shapes gender equality
• The barriers organisations face when implementing flexible working
• Why supporting fathers benefits businesses as well as families
• Turning conversations about equality from zero-sum to win-win outcomes

View extended shownotes here

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Transcript

 Ep. 58 - The Human Side of Fatherhood at Work with George Gabriel

Ep. 58 - The Human Side of Fatherhood at Work with George Gabriel

[00:00:00]

[00:00:28] Meet George and Dad Shift

[00:00:28] Welcome to Human Wise

[00:00:28] Helen Wada: So welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have George bu with me this morning. George, we're recording the day after International Women's Day, but actually we're gonna have a conversation that's more about the dads and the men in the workforce. So, really delighted to have you here.

[00:00:48] Helen Wada: A little bit of background and then I'd love to hear your story. George is the co-founder of the Dad Shift, a UK campaign mobilizing men and dads in pro gender equality campaigns, [00:01:00] starting with an effort to improve the UK's paternity leave offer, which at two weeks on less than half the minimum wage is the worst in Europe.

[00:01:09] Helen Wada: George works for Big Tech by day, but has also spent 10 years in the charity sector and political organizing, including founding the multi award-winning charity Safe Passage, which works to ignite refugees, children or their families. And now you are really focused on the dad shift, helping dads and. What we see of dads in the workplace to to be different, to give them a voice and to make them heard, and which really aligns to the human way of working George.

[00:01:39] Helen Wada: And, and that's why the two of us connected. So really welcome to the show. That's brief bio, but it's really about being human. Tell me a little bit about you.

[00:01:47] George Gabriel: Well, um, I'm a dad of two. I've got a 3-year-old daughter and a, a 1-year-old son, or just about, um. They are a handful and lots of fun. Um, yeah, I'm live in East London. Me and my [00:02:00] partner, um, have been here for a couple of years and definitely trying to raise our families over here. We've got some close friends on one side of our street and we've got different bits of family in and around us, and Yeah.

[00:02:10] George Gabriel: I can come, you know, as you said in the intro, by by day I work in big tech, uh, and I've been in Big Tech for six or seven years now.

[00:02:17] George Gabriel: Um, but on the side I helped run this campaign called the Dad Shift, which is really about how we call men back to, to gender equality. I think, you know, there's been a lot of kind of well-publicized worrying trends, particularly among younger men to suggest that they're moving towards a kind of gender identity that is illities with equality.

[00:02:36] George Gabriel: You know, there, there's a, a clear reality, which is many men and boys are struggling, whether you look at the rates of suicide, unemployment, educational attainment, all of these, uh, domains. Problems skew male. Um. It seems like a kind of growing share of young people and young men are, are coming to include that the reason they're struggling is, is basically because of the progress and games women have made, um, which is both completely mistaken [00:03:00] and extremely dangerous as a belief.

[00:03:02] George Gabriel: So the downshift is really a, an effort to test, uh, a hypothesis. We sat there wondering, well, how do you, how do you call men back to, to gender equality and to its benefits? Um, and the idea we hit on was that maybe you could campaign in male voice for issues that were both pro male, but also pro equality.

[00:03:22] George Gabriel: And if you could do that, maybe on the one hand you could, you could help win because you wouldn't just be leaving it to the women's movement to fight for, for things that are good for all of us. Um, but also you could perhaps take the microphone back and start telling a different story about what it means to be a man in Britain today.

[00:03:38] George Gabriel: And that, Yeah.

[00:03:38] George Gabriel: for me, a big part of what's, what's being human, you know, that's, that's me being a dad, that's me being a partner. That's me being, um, me being my whole and happy self. Um. And, you know, that is a, a self which is premised on, on partnership, um, with the, the love of my life, who is of course a woman and who I'm totally dependent on.

[00:03:57] George Gabriel: 'cause I need someone to hold the baby so I can have a shower. 

[00:03:59] Being Human at Work

[00:03:59] Helen Wada: and, [00:04:00] and I think you are right that it comes back to that being. Being human. And you know, I've been on the female side of things where, you know, actually it has been a struggle over many years for, for females to hear that, have their voice heard that when I created the Human Advantage, what I've done in the book human wise is it's, it's less about women, it's less about men.

[00:04:21] Helen Wada: It's more about how do we bring that human into who we are at work? And and you're absolutely right that it's a, it's a balance between, between the two. For you, what does being human at work mean to you, coming from your perspective?

[00:04:36] George Gabriel: I think. You know, working in big tech, uh, and just being completely candid, I would say in the last few years, you know, there was a really kind of performative, um, kind of focus on bringing your whole self to work. And it was, you know, on what it started off as this kind of call within big tech say are, bring your whole self.

[00:04:57] George Gabriel: You know, here's, here's your new home. We are a big [00:05:00] family and I think. That was not true. Right. Um, we're not big family at work. That is a workplace. Um, and I think it was a mistake in our culture to pretend otherwise, you know, a family, yes, there might be some hierarchies, but definitely not the type of hierarchies you would find in a workplace.

[00:05:17] George Gabriel: There are not the normal professional norms and boundaries, which actually very healthy and important. So I think tech kind of made two mistakes. The first was this like, bring your whole self to work. The second was we got into this kind of performative cycle around inclusion, where, you know, inclusion meant never forgetting, uh, a kind of a week or a day, never forgetting to post internally after something like International Women's Day, rather than doing the sincere real work of showing up for one another and for ourselves.

[00:05:50] George Gabriel: You know, I do a lot of speaking at, at corporates these days, and I get asked, you know, what does male ally shit look like? It's quite temp to say, well Yeah.

[00:05:59] George Gabriel: pop up that [00:06:00] post for International Women's Day or whatever. It's like, no, if you wanna be a good ally, take your leave. Single biggest inhibitor to kind of female progress in the workforce is the motherhood penalty.

[00:06:11] George Gabriel: That's mom, uh, women pay when they become moms. That is the overwhelming driver of the gender pay gap in the uk. The pay gap is estimated, I think, to be about 13, 14%. And 11 to 12% of that is driven by the motherhood penalty. Motherhood, pendleton's driven itself by the fact that women take time out often after they've had a birth of a child in maternity leave, and they pay a price in their careers ever, ever onwards.

[00:06:36] George Gabriel: So the single best way to equalize that is for men to take leave too. That's one of the reasons why we need a campaign, um, to get the statutory rate of leave improved. But it's also why in workplaces like mine where I'm very lucky to be offered a decent amount of leave, it's just critical that I take it.

[00:06:54] George Gabriel: So Yeah.

[00:06:54] George Gabriel: I think what I'm trying to say is that being human at work for me is about getting [00:07:00] real about sincerely thinking through what. I need to be a great dad, husband, professional, And what others need from the workplace on that kind of real level. And it's not about pretending that every single, um, kind of need of mine can be met by the workplace.

[00:07:16] George Gabriel: It shouldn't, and I shouldn't try and solve it there. Um, it's also not about thinking that that kind of being human is this great performance that we're all engaged in persuading everyone else that we're doing a good job of, no, it's like. It is hard and steady work to show up as yourself appropriately in your work environment and to create conditions in which others can do the same.

[00:07:39] Helen Wada: And Absolutely. 

[00:07:40] Showing Up with Values

[00:07:40] Helen Wada: And I, I love you touched on there, that how you show up piece, and that's, that's the first h in, in the human framework that I bring in the book human wise. That launched last week, George, because it's about, for me, I. It's tapping into, yes, there's bringing your whole self to work. You know, I hear that, but actually it's about more than that.

[00:07:59] Helen Wada: It's [00:08:00] about being practical. It's about understanding what value you bring. Leaning. Leaning into your own values and to what you just said there about if you are a dad, if this is what you want to do, then you need to lead the way by actually doing it and showing up in a way that is representative of you and your values, recognizing that the workplace has goals and objectives and it's not your home life.

[00:08:26] Helen Wada: So there was a real fine balance to be struck. Isn't there?

[00:08:29] George Gabriel: It sure is, but I, I think there's also a lot of transferable kind of strengths. You know, I think becoming a father, it's mellowed me. It's taught me a lot more patience. Um, it, it's a very visceral reminder every day of the things in my life that's so much more important to me than I am. So I think in a way, you know.

[00:08:51] George Gabriel: That experience of fatherhood is a great gift to me as a professional. And it doesn't mean that I'm, you know, dad at work all the time, like going on [00:09:00] and on and on about my kids. So I will bore people to death if they wanna know. Uh, it's more about saying, oh, there are like amazing things that we are taught in all these different domains of our lives, which we can leverage as professionals.

[00:09:14] George Gabriel: And actually, I think, um, I am more effective, I'm more valuable. Um. a worker and an employee because of how I have been changed in the last few years by fatherhood. And yeah, you can look at it and you can say, well, there's definitely a cost, Isn't there?

[00:09:30] George Gabriel: 'cause I'm more tired and I have a bit less time to give.

[00:09:33] George Gabriel: And that, that's certainly true, but it's definitely an upside. Um, and I wanna bring that upside to, to kinda work in a real and full way. Um. 

[00:09:45] Helen Wada: A bit more about what's been changed, how, how have you been changed over the last few years that your parent had?

[00:09:50] George Gabriel: I think I've always been good in the zero to one space. I'm good at starting things. I build coalitions well. I communicate well. I can spot opportunity [00:10:00] and that, that's always been a bit of a superpower at work. I'm, you know, Georgia comes in and starts things and gets 'em going. Um, but I think one of the risks for me is that I get so focused on what's new that I can perhaps kind of drive energy there too hard and too fast and underestimate just how challenging, you know, I work in one of the world's largest tech companies, like running some of our major operations is kind of complex, difficult, has required like a high degree of focus and attention to detail over, over many years.

[00:10:31] George Gabriel: And Yeah.

[00:10:32] George Gabriel: I guess now. While I start things still with that same kind of spark and, and fire, you know, I perhaps do it with like a little bit more patience, a little bit more respect for the kinda ways of, of working across our organization. A little bit more humility, to be honest, I think um, there's nothing like being rubbish at caring for a baby to teach you that you need some humility and you need to be okay with learning things.

[00:10:56] George Gabriel: Again, I think particularly as I reach this stage in my career where. [00:11:00] No, I've been working now for 20 years. I'm pretty good at what I'm good at. Um, you know, it's really good to be reminded that, oh, there's still lots of things I really suck at, and, and I can pretend I don't, I can try and cover it up, but you can't get away with that with the baby.

[00:11:15] George Gabriel: Um, you know, the first, you know, my daughter was the first baby I ever changed. She was the first baby I ever really held or fed, and I was terrible at it. And there was nothing to do but learn. You know, I could pretend I knew how to change and now, but that wasn't helping anyone. I could pretend that it wasn't important to feed the baby, but that was clearly ridiculous.

[00:11:35] George Gabriel: And so I think a lot of the kind of self-deception side month. Once might have been guilty at, particularly in a working context, you know, you just, you just can't get away with them when you're raising a kid. So, yeah, I, I hope that I can bring some of that, that kind of same spirit to work and I can learn better from others.

[00:11:52] George Gabriel: 'cause I'm less focused on trying to prove and more open to just learning because it's needed.

[00:11:58] Helen Wada: I think you're absolutely right. 

[00:11:59] Curiosity and Connection

[00:12:12] Helen Wada: I mean, I, I can see the parallels absolutely, George, and when you think about what we're trying to do in, in large businesses, even in small businesses, but for me it's about relationships, about connection. It's about bringing. People together. The larger the business, the more complex the relationships and the stakeholders.

[00:12:15] Helen Wada: And there's something about, you talked about humility, but going in with, I'm, I'm confident in who I am. You know, you talked about having 20 years of experience. I'm, I'm confident in who I am and what I bring. And I think that's number one, because once you are, you've got that sort of self-assuredness.

[00:12:34] Helen Wada: It's then easier to open up to some of those vulnerabilities to go, I, I don't know what all the answers are. And in the business world today, it's so complex, you know, the tech is changing rapidly. You know, more quickly we, you know, we can have a conversation and it's changed already. But actually for me, and I, I talk about it in book, the you of the Human is, is about understanding others and getting curious.

[00:12:58] Helen Wada: And I think that links into your, [00:13:00] your learning point about coming at things. We know who we are, we're self-assured, but actually I'm humble, I'm curious. I want to learn where are you coming from? 'cause if we are going to collaborate and make things better within an organization, whether it's within our business or with our customers to create new business opportunities, we have to start bringing these, dare I say it softer, but these human skills to the fore.

[00:13:28] Helen Wada: which we're developing through parent.

[00:13:29] George Gabriel: I think the, the main thing that strikes me, what you're describing is that I've always been, um, struck by this expression, which is those with deep roots don't need high walls. And, um. And I think, yeah, it's a misperception, I think a common one to think that, um, that knowing your own value and being humble are at odds.

[00:13:51] George Gabriel: Actually, I, I more often see people who are like very insecure and I've been one of those people and still am at times. It's when I'm insecure that I'm [00:14:00] overconfident. Um. When I'm secure, I don't need overconfidence. And I think, um, that I think is probably one of the most important lessons I've had in my career and in in life is, um, that, um, yeah, it is, it is much better to, to kind of really know yourself, know what you're good at, feel confident in that.

[00:14:20] George Gabriel: Um. And once you feel that, then you can also learn easily. 'cause you can admit where you are struggling, where you do need some help. Um, and you don't have to kind of paper over with this overconfidence stuff. Um, so yeah, I think that's really important. And I think, you know, there's, it's one thing to say that, um, but for people who are listening who are perhaps earlier in their careers, aren't really highly confident about what they offer, I think there is something about, um, even if you're not sure what you offer, being really sure about what matters to you, uh.

[00:14:51] George Gabriel: Commitment in a way can be what you offer. You know, and even if that.

[00:14:56] George Gabriel: commitment is just to your own success at the workplace because you [00:15:00] really need this job and why you really need this job or because you're trying to like support your family or because you've got big hopes and dreams where you want to go in the future.

[00:15:08] George Gabriel: Um, even if all you bring is a lot of commitment, that is, uh, a kind of superpower. Um, and that should be enough in the tank that you can then get on with the work of listening, learning, approaching things with curiosity and humility. Um, so yeah, I, I start with commitment as a route to confidence. And then with confidence, yeah, I can be much more open-minded, much more at ease.

[00:15:32] George Gabriel: Patient will rest

[00:15:34] Helen Wada: I, I love that George. And it, it links back to, again, I keep coming back to the book. It only was published last week, so I feel like I've read it, you know, a thousand times. But. 

[00:15:42] Finding Your Purpose

[00:15:42] Helen Wada: You and I are both working on something that, that meets our purpose, like a bigger purpose. You know, you were the dad of me with the business and the human advantage and human wise, there's a, a real.

[00:15:52] Helen Wada: Thread there with our purpose for work that we do, but I think sometimes we hold onto that too much. And you know, maybe at those [00:16:00] earlier stages of your career, it's like, well, what is my golden purpose? What? And, and it takes time for you to work over the years to be able to find. That thing that you are passionate about, and what I will say is it doesn't have to link directly, but there's different purposes.

[00:16:14] Helen Wada: You know, there's that holistic purpose, what's broadly important to you, but actually what is your purpose at work? And you've just said it might be, I need a job for an income to provide for my value. Family to do what I want to do. That's absolutely fine. And, and then you go, well, what's the purpose of my role within that?

[00:16:32] Helen Wada: And then what's my day-to-day purpose? And I think sometimes, you know, certainly you roll back the clock sort of 10 years or so. There was so much on purpose, it was almost too, too grand and too big for people to hang their hats on. But actually, if we just bring it down to, well, what does this bit mean for me?

[00:16:48] Helen Wada: Then it's easier to focus on what we can do about it.

[00:16:51] George Gabriel: Yeah.

[00:16:52] George Gabriel: and I used to do a bit of a lunatic for purpose. Um, you know, my campaigning, like when I was working just in the charity sector. I [00:17:00] drove myself to a really extreme, uh, burnout. Got divorced, you know, everything fell apart 'cause I just pushed myself so hard so far. And I found basically the limits of purpose.

[00:17:13] George Gabriel: You know, purpose can't carry the weight of your whole life and you shouldn't really ask it to. And actually now. I don't, I don't know kind of what stage career most of the folk listening will be, but certainly in my, you know, now firmly in the middle of my career, I'm learning that actually it's all right for different things to have different purposes.

[00:17:34] George Gabriel: My work in, in my day job. That is how I provide for my family. It's also how I'm acquiring a whole bunch of really valuable new skills. I also get to work with some people I really like and admire. Um, and then my stuff with the dad shift, Yeah.

[00:17:47] George Gabriel: that's where I go and get some of my social purpose kicks.

[00:17:50] George Gabriel: And um, it used to be that I thought that everything had to be solved through, through one thing. And now I'm like, oh no, that's, that's in a way too much pressure to put [00:18:00] on, on any one part of my life. I need a kind of broader, you know, there's this saying, what is it that, uh, the temple stands on, like five pillars Or is it something about, you know, or stool needs at least three legs.

[00:18:13] George Gabriel: You know, you need different hearts of your public working life in order to sustain different bits of your personal purpose and, and human needs. 

[00:18:24] Helen Wada: Yeah, I, I think that's right. 

[00:18:25] Pressure and Priorities

[00:18:25] Helen Wada: And I think you're right that that word pressure comes back a lot. And what I see is the more pressure people feel, the less able they are to really, truly be themselves and, and let go a little bit. And so it's finding that balance between creating the right pressure for. For yourself, but actually not having too much pressure because then we go inward and we we're so worried about what other people think that we don't do what's right for us.

[00:18:53] Helen Wada: Which perhaps comes back to down to your, your message around, you know, priorities and [00:19:00] things shift over time. You know, I'm now a mother of two teenage boys that it's a different life to when my children were the age that yours were sort of one and three and before that as a couple and, and then as a single wife.

[00:19:14] Helen Wada: I think there's a recognition that, that we change throughout our lives and therefore it's okay for our priorities to shift. 

[00:19:21] George Gabriel: And, and our needs too. Right? And it's okay to say what we need in order to thrive and be effective in a given moment. You know, the UK does have, you know, this is a dad shift piece. The worst statutory paternity leave are. Offer in Europe two weeks on less than half the minimum wage, nothing if you're self-employed.

[00:19:39] George Gabriel: Our research shows that 90% of those of the leave that is claimed that two weeks is claimed by higher earners shows that particularly for like most working blokes. Taking any meaningful time off when the new baby arrives just isn't really viable. And that's despite a mountain of evidence showing how important paternity leave is [00:20:00] for moms, for dads, and for babies too.

[00:20:02] George Gabriel: So 

[00:20:03] Barriers to Paternity Leave

[00:20:03] George Gabriel: I, think part of what we are trying to do, particularly as men, I think there's a kind of challenge often around saying what we need. Um. Is to, to basically set a better example than that for our sons and say, no, we like, we do need help. This is one of the most important challenging moments of a man, of, of any parent's life, and it's really important that they have a bit of time to figure out who they're gonna be as a parent.

[00:20:24] George Gabriel: Um, it's important to them, uh, so they can manage and cope and be the best they can be. It's also super important to their partner. Right. You know I already talked about the gender pay gap, but if you look at things. Postpartum depression countries, uh, with better paternity leave. It's, it's a linear correlation to have higher levels of pat leave.

[00:20:43] George Gabriel: Um, like it is really good for everyone and it is really important in our workplaces. surfacing the things that are needed for us to perform, and, and this is one of them. So yeah, I think from our perspective, we're both trying to encourage parents in the workplace to say, Hey, to their [00:21:00] employers, we need to enhance the offer that's currently given wherever possible.

[00:21:05] George Gabriel: And of course, businesses have to make a decent profit. And it's, it's challenging for folks to do that in this context. So on the one hand, to be that voice inside our employers to say we need better leave, but then also to say to the government, you know, you need to make it possible because, you know. Big tech companies like mine might be able to give three, four months of full pay.

[00:21:23] George Gabriel: That is gonna be a real struggle for most SMEs. So that is where we need government to step in and level the playing field. SMEs can offer the same kind of benefits to their staff, uh, that the big players already can.

[00:21:34] Helen Wada: I, I know there's a lot of the listeners you talk about the, the, the listenership. I, I work with a, a lot of groups of, of men and women, sort of early thirties moving through their career. They're sort of, they've done 10, 15 years and they're stepping up and that's one of the big areas of population that we work with.

[00:21:51] Helen Wada: So this is absolutely hitting home the number of people that work, you know. Paternity leave or so and so. But what do you think [00:22:00] has been the barrier within organizations that's stopping this at the moment?

[00:22:06] George Gabriel: I think for most SMEs it's a simple, like, uh, it's a simple financial challenge, right? There's not a lot of margin in a large, large proportion of employers across the country. Um, and so. Yeah, they might say, I'd love to give an extra couple of weeks to new dads, and some of them might give like a bit of extra flexibility or a bit of extra time, but in order for them to offer kind of proper early paid, a decent amount of time off to new dads, they need a bit of help from government.

[00:22:32] George Gabriel: That is why with maternity leave, it's government that reimburses employers to the cost of it. And we do just need a better statutory offer across the country. You know, when paternity leave was first introduced 20 years ago, you know, it was groundbreaking to give dads two weeks off. But society has come a long way in the last 20 years, you know, and in our polling, 90% dads say they wanna be a bigger part of their children's lives.

[00:22:54] George Gabriel: This is the most active generation of fathers there has ever been. In Britain, of course, that [00:23:00] that goes together with the rise of the jeweler in a household, the rise of women in, in the employed world. And that's a kind of exciting, that can be an exciting shift for everyone, right? Where women are able to thrive both at home.

[00:23:13] George Gabriel: And at work, and men the same, but we need to configure social policy to support that new reality. Right. Which is like, there is just, it's, it's so hard to make it add up with just a single earner house under these days. We do need dual learners. There are real opportunities for everyone it with that shift, but we need support 'em to make it.

[00:23:33] George Gabriel: Well, you know, we can't just end up with a situation where, Yeah.

[00:23:35] George Gabriel: women get to work at work, but they also have to do all the work at home. No, we need to create the context in which men can do their fair share. 

[00:23:44] Teamwork and Caregiving

[00:23:44] Helen Wada: And speaking as a mother and a wife, absolutely. You know, it it really is teamwork. My household. I would still say my husband and dad is absolutely brilliant, but there is still a little bit of, I tend to pick up more of the home [00:24:00] stuff. He's, he's brilliant with the school things and everybody's different and everybody's roles are different, but I could not do what I do.

[00:24:08] Helen Wada: Without the support of my husband, and when we talk about being human at work, we need to recognize it's not men or women, it's collectively society that are. Raising our children that are, maybe it's not children, George. You know, I'm at the age, I'm just turned 50. I've got a lot of friends with elderly parents.

[00:24:31] Helen Wada: You know, my mom's got mild dementia, my dad does brilliantly. But I was speaking to somebody at the weekend, they sadly lost their mother a couple of weeks ago and their manager, you know, and so we're, you know, talking about the dad shift, but actually. I think if we take this up, we need to be more aware of what does society need from us and how does work play a role, and then what is our commitment.

[00:24:57] Helen Wada: I was, I was asked the other day to be, you know, [00:25:00] why, why is commitment important and what can we do to show up better at at work? Well, it's a trust process. It's, I've got your back. You've got my back, and. We need that flexibility for both men and women to be able to fulfill our roles at home, as well as to commitment in the workplace.

[00:25:20] George Gabriel: At the moment, the government has a consultational flexible working and obviously, you know, with COVID, a very large number of white collar workers went full-time remote.

[00:25:28] George Gabriel: There's then been this rise of like return to office mandate, said pendulum swings one way. Then the on flexibility and you know, I think. On average. Yeah.

[00:25:36] George Gabriel: If strings one way then the other, but gradually we are moving forward. Right? People today, even if they got a return to office mandate, they'd probably still have a bit more flexibility than they did pre COVID.

[00:25:46] George Gabriel: So, you know, the long arc is positive, but I don't hear anyone talking about how we've try and figure out what flexible working looks like for people in manual professions. I don't see anyone putting. Any time [00:26:00] to try and figure out those solutions and then guess what? We end up with massive cultural blowback against like an out of touch, like middle class.

[00:26:09] George Gabriel: We like metropolitan, elite, et cetera. Well, like, you know, paternity leave again is an example, right? That's stat I said it is. Absolutely horrifying that 90% of the leave that is taken is taken by people in the top half of the earnings distribution. And then we have the nerve to sit around saying, oh, like these working class dads in the trades.

[00:26:29] George Gabriel: They're a bunch of Neanderthals who don't wanna spend time with their kids. Like, I dunno what your, your kind of. Terms are in terms of podcasts on swearing, that that is total bullshit, right? All these stats wanna be an active part of their kids' lives. It's just that the social policy frameworks that exist are only set support, some of them to do that.

[00:26:46] George Gabriel: Um, so yes, I totally agree on this piece around like try and support people to be human in the workplace and just really like, encourage us to make sure that we are looking at all workplaces there. Um, and not just thinking about, [00:27:00] yeah, basically our middle class white collar professionals. 

[00:27:02] Skills to Shift the Dial

[00:27:02] Helen Wada: Going to the skills for a moment. George, you know, we've talked about the context, we've talked about the situation a minute. What are the skills that we need from your perspective to try and shift this style? I, I've got a view from word of the work that I do, but I'm just curious, how do we do this?

[00:27:23] George Gabriel: So it's not quite a question about what is, what are the skills that are important to succeed at work? Is it, it's a question about what are the skills we need to be more human at work? 

[00:27:32] Helen Wada: And, and to shift this dial. 'cause on the one hand we talked about government change, right? So there's government legislation, right? But for the most part. We can't, you know, we can influence, we can say what we want, but actually where is shift going to also come from? It's going to come from people requesting this of their employers, but that, that in itself requires a skillset to be confident in the conversation.

[00:27:57] Helen Wada: So, you know, that could be quite a [00:28:00] scary conversation for somebody that's 

[00:28:02] George Gabriel: yeah. We, we know a bunch of dads who, you know, it's, it's easy to be blase and say, you know, just have some courage, blah, blah, blah. Just give it a go. I know a bunch of dads who asked for flexible working were told yeah, they could put in a request if they liked, but they'd be prioritized for redundancy if they did.

[00:28:17] George Gabriel: So it's, it's kind of. Really understandable that quite a lot of people are about doing that. So I think yes skills, but it's also about the relationships needed to do that.

[00:28:28] Helen Wada: Mm.

[00:28:28] George Gabriel: Firstly, I'm a big believer in trade union and is, um, I think I, you know, if you're a tool worried that something might go badly for you, join a union, know your rights, get some support, get some protection.

[00:28:40] George Gabriel: So that'll be kind of my starter for one. Um, from that place of like, make sure you've got the support you need and that can be union, that can just be other colleagues in the workplace and making sure that they've got your back. Um, two I think is like, uh. About going into that conversation with some kind of realism and some candor.

[00:28:59] George Gabriel: [00:29:00] Like I think if I'm performing poorly at work, um, if I'm performing poorly because of these challenges, then I need the courage to go and kind of raise that with my manager and talk about how this is getting in the way. Um, if I'm performing poorly, generally. Um, yeah, going, and asking for additional gets from work.

[00:29:20] George Gabriel: I can see why that will people, I can see why people will be uncomfortable with that or nervous. So I think probably my starting point is, yeah, make sure you're safe. My second point would be like, be realistic about the conversation. Why? Why is this also in the organization's interests as well as mine?

[00:29:36] George Gabriel: What is the through line between how enabling me to meet my needs will better enable me to perform and meet the needs of the business or the employer would be a second one. And then the third I think is ultimately, so much of this depends on kind of, um. Trust, you know.

[00:29:54] George Gabriel: trust, which is built through listening, which is built through reciprocity.

[00:29:58] George Gabriel: Um, [00:30:00] so Yeah.

[00:30:01] George Gabriel: I think working out how you can build some with your key stakeholders so that you can be honest enough with what you need and they can meet you honestly with what they think the business can provide. What 

[00:30:10] Helen Wada: Yeah, and I, I love. I love that word. Brilliant. 

[00:30:14] Trust and Business Case

[00:30:14] Helen Wada: I think there's all, all three really practical points and, and for me and for the listeners that understand the trust equation. So what's your credibility, reliability? The key thing for me in that equation is intimacy. Over self-interest. So the David Meister trust equation, that's been around for years, but for me it's dialing up on the in intimacy.

[00:30:36] Helen Wada: Most people that we work with are, are credible. They, they're good at what they do, they're reliable, they do what they say they would do. But for me it's the intimacy. How do you create those human connections. You talked about meeting the stakeholders, understanding where the business is coming from, and thinking about, you know, what's important for the business, not just you.

[00:30:58] Helen Wada: So it's a two-way thing. You know, it is [00:31:00] not all about me, but actually it's about why is this good for business? Because I think, like it or not, we are operating in primarily capitalist world, whether you are in government or ground business, whatever it is. But why is this important to us as an organization that we make this shift, that actually, that we do facilitate.

[00:31:23] Helen Wada: Us taking time as dads, as well as the moms of this world and to support people, again, through inclusion. It's, it's not just diversity, but it's about inclusion and it's having the confidence to show up comes back to that confidence piece, knowing why you're good at what you do, but the confidence to show up and have these conversations.

[00:31:44] Helen Wada: 'cause unless we do, we're not gonna shift the dial.

[00:31:48] George Gabriel: Hundred percent. And I think, um, yeah, again, kind of finding that support network, whether it's joining a union or for us, if folks thinking about parental leave, we have a, a big WhatsApp community, um, of people, all of whom are [00:32:00] approaching their employers about enhancing their parental leave. So if this is something for you.

[00:32:04] George Gabriel: Check out the dad shift, it's www.dad shift.org uk. From there, there'll be kind of entry points into our WhatsApp groups, and there you can find some great resources, great support on how best to go about approaching your employer and having the conversation. Um, because remember, we we're doing it for ourselves.

[00:32:20] George Gabriel: We're also doing it for everyone else. 

[00:32:23] Helen Wada: No, that's, no, that's brilliant. 

[00:32:24] Top Tip and Wrap Up

[00:32:24] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time, George. It's been wonderful to have you on the show this morning. I ask all of our guests, what would be your one top tip for them and what would be the one question that you would ask them to reflect on having listened to this conversation this morning?

[00:32:41] George Gabriel: Top tip would be this stuff is not gonna change unless we change it. Um, get involved with the, the conversation in your workplace about improving policies and making the argument, get involved with the campaign. See if we can change statutory offer to the country. Um, you know, the, the arc of history bends towards justice, but only because we push it.

[00:32:58] George Gabriel: And I think on parental [00:33:00] leave, you know, let's remember the UK has the worst. In Europe, like, we are going to win this thing. It is going to change. We are going to catch up. But it does require a bit of a push for us to get there. And then the one thing to reflect on, you know, one thing I am busy reflecting on is like, how do we turn.

[00:33:17] George Gabriel: Conversations about gender equality, but you can say the same of, um, of kind of being your full self at work, you know, or like humanity at work. How do we turn these from zero sum conversations about what's good for the employee is bad for the business, or what's good for women is bad for men, et cetera, into a win-win.

[00:33:35] George Gabriel: How do we continue to relentlessly focus on the areas where we are better together and tell more compelling stories, um, to bring that to life for everyone around us. Um, 'cause that's certainly what we're trying to do at the dad shift. 

[00:33:48] Helen Wada: Thank you so much, George, for joining us and if people want to find you, you, you've mentioned the website. I'm assuming you are on LinkedIn as well.

[00:33:56] George Gabriel: Yeah. On LinkedIn, on Instagram, on TikTok. So yeah, come find us, come [00:34:00] join. Um, it's little file. 

[00:34:02] Helen Wada: Brilliant. Great to have you on the show. 

[00:34:03] George Gabriel: You too. All right. Bye-Bye. 

[00:34:05] Helen Wada: Take it 

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