Exploring the Genetic Ties that Bind: The Science of Social Bonds

Have you ever considered that your DNA might hold the key to understanding your relationships? This episode features the relationship technology expert Tac Williams, who brings his wealth of knowledge to our exploration of genetics and its profound impact on how we connect with others. Tac opens up about his personal journey through a tumultuous past relationship, providing an earnest backdrop to our discussion on attraction, individuality, and the necessity of setting boundaries. Our conversation takes a turn towards the scientific, dissecting the role of genes like the serotonin transporter gene S-L-C-6-A-4 and the dopamine receptor genes DRD2 and DRD4, unraveling how these tiny biological factors may determine our sociability, mood regulation, and even risk-taking behaviors.

We venture deeper into the genetic labyrinth, examining the effects of vasopressin on social bonding and aggression. Tac and I aim to piece together the intricate puzzle of hormones, genes, and behavior, shedding light on the genetic 'on and off' switches that can be influenced by our environment, diet, and life experiences. Through these insights, we hope to arm you with a greater mindfulness of the undercurrents that shape our relationships. Whether we're discussing the complex interplay of genetics and parenting styles in response to a listener's question from Minneapolis, or delving into the nuances of our predispositions, this episode promises to offer a fresh lens through which to view the connections we hold dear. Join us for a profound journey into the science of social bonds and prepare to be enlightened about the genetic chords that weave through the tapestry of our interpersonal relationships.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

P23 Knowledge, access, power. P23, wellness and Understanding at your fingertips P23. And that's no cap.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Welcome back to Demystifying DNA, your Beacon in the Fascinating World of Genetics, where we break down complex scientific concepts into understandable and engaging content. I'm your host, dr Tiffany Montgomery, scientist, epidemiologist, not a medical doctor or psychiatrist, but I'm still that curious lady helping guide you through every step of the way. And today I'm accompanied by my insightful co-host, tac Williams, relationship technology and computer extraordinaire. You all have met him before. Welcome, tac.

Speaker 3: 1:12

How's it going? Dr Montgomery, thank you for having me back. You know I enjoy joining this platform, especially with the subject matter we're about to speak on in a minute.

Speaker 2: 1:25

And today's topic is all about relationships. She said, dr Montgomery, how does that go? What does relationship has to do with genetics, but allow me to walk you through it. You all know I love taking things that are as simple as every day and bringing it forward into a way that translates to science. I want you all to eat this, live this, breathe this and enjoy it as much as I do. So today's episode we're going to just talk about genetics and the factors that it plays into different relationships. I promise that we're going to have a enlightening exploration into how our genes influence the most intimate aspects of our lives.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Our mission is to demystify genetics, making it accessible and relatable to everyone, whether you're a science enthusiast or simply curious about genetics and how it plays a role in your daily interactions and relationships. We are here for it. As we delve into the science behind genetic influences on relationships, we aim to illuminate the intricate ways in which our DNA contributes to the bonds we form, the relationships we have and the people that we are. Let's dive into this journey together, making the complex world of genetics easy to understand for everyone. So talk, I have to admit I tricked you here. You thought it was a genetics podcast, but you're more like my human experiment. Okay.

Speaker 2: 3:11

So we're, going to just ask you a couple of questions. I want to know Well, what is now? I know you're not married, so we're just going to just talk about dating. Okay, we're just going to talk about the dating part of it. What is your most memorable relationship, Like just the best relationship that you've ever had? Tell us about it.

Speaker 3: 3:35

The best relationship I've ever had came to me after I no longer had that relationship. So it was the rear view mirror and what was good about it? What I remember most was we were different. We were just different, and I think that was my attraction. I was attracted to the difference because, in my mind, when I get into relationships, while I want my lady or my woman to be special to me and give herself to me in the different ways that women do affection, love, emotions, whatever I still want to recognize her as an individual. And that relationship was a that was special. That was a great one, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Now, that is interesting. I got another question for you because first we just go through some questions. I promise it's going to relate to genetics, but I just want to kind of talk you through some things that may be relatable to everyone. So let's talk about your worst relationship.

Speaker 3: 5:04

My worst relationship. I didn't have to wait until it was over because I knew I had to get out of that. My worst relationship involved physical I'm not going to say physical abuse, but it involved some physicality. And what happened was I didn't know I was involved with someone who didn't mind physically getting into it. I came from a family where my father physically abused my mom when I was a younger child and as a result of that, that's why they became divorced. That's why my mom got divorced from my dad.

Speaker 3: 5:51

My takeaway from that was that, you know, I don't hit women, I don't put my hands on women. And it was five of us boys and we only had one sister. She was the oldest, so it was just easy for me to process it that way. And when I got involved with this one relationship, she put her hands on me. She did things like that involved what some courts would call weapons, you know.

Speaker 3: 6:24

And that was the worst for me, because there was nothing in me looking for an excuse to become like that. And I remember telling her one day that when our relationship is through, you're gonna get involved with somebody and they're gonna be very happy to go hand in hand with you they won't have an issue with it. And I used to tell her mom and her brothers you know I could just punch it in the stomach and it'd be all over with. But why would I do it? It's nothing in me that makes me wanna do that. The other side of that was I wasn't gonna stay in that relationship. So that was the worst for me, because I am not the type of man that says because she hit me, I have the right to hit her. My morality, when I think about that, rises above the legality of it. So I'm not an individual who do things based on how the law is written. So for me that was terrible. That was I had to get out of that. So that was the worst for me.

Speaker 2: 7:38

Wow, that was deep talk and I'm gonna say this at the end of the show, but I wanna take a moment to say it now Domestic violence is not okay and if you are in need of help with domestic violence, whether you are a man, woman or child, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233. They also have a text. You can text the word START to 887-88. Thank you, todd, it's not okay. So I want to make sure that there are resources out there, because we do have people who deal with aggression, we do have people who deal with domestic violence in different ways and we want to make sure that they understand that there's support available. So I wanted to do that to not forget or to get help right away. But when you're in a situation like that, where there is aggression, there is abuse, there is hostility, what recommendations would you have for somebody in a situation like that?

Speaker 3: 8:51

Well, I'm always a believer that your situation or circumstances, things that happen to you, have a tendency to reveal you. So, in most cases, when you're in a committed relationship and I've never been married I've been engaged before, not married though it's like a process begins. So you know what is that process? Well, you know, for me, you remove yourself from that situation. That's how I look at that. I am not a believer that. You know. You just started hitting people when you got to me, because I don't walk around with the hitting signals saying hit me. You know, there's nothing about me, I just don't do it. So for me, I would say begin the process of removing yourself from there and doing that process. You will see that monster poke his head out again or not, I'm not sure, but that's just what it is for me. I can't tolerate it. I don't have any tolerance for it. So, yeah, I might stand in relationship itself for a minute, but make no mistake about it, I'm beginning the process, and that's what happened in that case.

Speaker 3: 10:09

While I was still in the relationship, I went inside the lease for apartment. I had the keys and the next time it became like that, I just went to my new apartment that I had already signed the lease for a year, and you know we got together a little bit after that, but that's her putting her hands on me was something that I had nothing to do with, I couldn't even control, that was something that was in her and so for me you remove yourself from it. I'm just with the removal plan. I don't have a version that says he just loves you. There's too many other ways that he can love you. She just loves you. There's too many other ways that she can love. Like I said, if I could just hit it in the stomach like every time I could just bang you in your stomach, but I didn't do it.

Speaker 3: 10:58

I didn't even want to do it. So my mind is removal. I'm sorry, I don't. There's not a class to take where I'm a, I'm a buy-in about. He just slapped you once, or she just meets you once or without, but to me it's removal.

Speaker 2: 11:13

And I think you hit some key points there, todd. You have to have your boundaries and know when it's time to just remove yourself from the situation and have your escape plan. So where your exit plan? I think that you did an amazing job summing that up. So I appreciate you for sharing and being so open with us, because that is something that's difficult to talk about and you don't hear.

Speaker 2: 11:38

A lot of men talk about being abused in situations, and they are. There are women who who hit because guess what? They have the same genes that we're going to be talking about later that men have, and some of these genes in our bodies cold for aggression, they cold for violence, they cold for these types of things. And when you think about epigenetics and the environment and the experiences that you go under, it becomes a natural transition to see how these things are happening. But it's up to us to take control of our genes, and that's what this podcast is about. That's what we're here for To talk about understanding that these things exist but, more importantly, how we empower ourselves to change, control and prevent these things that are happening. So I just want to take a moment to thank you for your candidness and your honesty in the conversation.

Speaker 3: 12:42

Well, I want to say I appreciate you hearing me out and yeah, I mean, you're welcome and I have a brother, one of my four brothers.

Speaker 3: 12:54

You know we were we're a year apart and we stood in front of the same set of circumstances where my dad was physically abused in my mom and that's why I say to people it's not necessarily what happens, it's how you process it, because he was physically abusive towards girlfriends and I've said to him before when we was growing up how can you get your woman who became his wife and still got hit, how can you do that after what we saw as kids? But I had to understand because I wasn't sophisticated enough to understand that that two people can be put in front of the same experience but they process it different because of their psychic persona and how they make sense of it. That's why when people try to people do they try to impose a will or say all of you should look at it this way because all of you stood in front of it. It's not true, because it's not what happens as far as I'm concerned, it's how you process it.

Speaker 2: 14:01

And I think you're 100% correct. That's why we have a quarter law, because it's how you process it and we have to take responsibility for our actions. I do have a comment from the audience. You know, today we're recording with a live studio audience and so they have comments, they have questions, and one audience member just commented the vulnerability is refreshing.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Tak accredited his non-violence response to his experiences. However, people get trapped into the cycle and see violence as a way of life. I command Tak for his self-control and ability to refrain from violence. This is DNA play a role in his response versus the way others react or respond? That's a great question. We appreciate you for sharing your question, thank you. We will say that his DNA plays a part as much as his aggressor or attackers DNA plays a part. There are several genes that we're going to talk about today and, as a host, remember it's a big thing, right, we're just kind of taking it piece by piece, little by little, and understanding this thing as much as we can.

Speaker 2: 15:22

Interpersonal relationships are complex and they are influenced by a variety of factors, including genetics. While genetics can play a role in shaping certain aspects of personality or behavior that affect how individuals interact with others. It's important to note that human behavior is also influenced by environmental factors and personal experiences. We're going to just go over a few genes and how they have been studied in relation to interpersonal relationships and maybe after we talk about ECG, just to keep you all awake, I ask Todd, give me an example of a relationship where it is a time where you felt this Okay, just to keep you all awake, and then maybe we'll do something fun at the end.

Speaker 2: 16:13

Let me just see what I can create over here. The first gene we're going to talk about is going to be axotaxin receptor gene, oxtr. Axotaxin is often referred to as the love hormone or bonding hormone, because it is involved in social bonding, trust, empathy, breastfeeding. Variations in the OXTR gene have been associated with differences in social behavior, including how individuals form and maintain relationships. So, todd, give me a time where you felt your love hormone was activated or your bonding hormone was activated Maybe a girlfriend or a child, you can tell me about a parent and just a quick example of when you think that gene was activated.

Speaker 3: 17:13

I've learned. When I'm in someone's space, let's say, I'm physically attracted to a woman, so I like what I see, it's eye candy at that point, and something happens through some interaction, and now we're closer, we're in close proximity. Now, when I initially see a woman and I'm physically attracted to a woman just from the eye candy, my hormones are not activated. I don't really physically desire that woman. I'm basically enjoying what I see because, like I said, it's eye candy. But when I'm in a close proximity probably about five inches to maybe 18 inches and I'm in there and all of a sudden I feel excited, then I know I'm physically attracted to her.

Speaker 3: 18:11

I don't think she's cute, I don't think she's sexy from across the room. I'm really physically attracted. What I typically do, though, is I wait until I'm around a second or third time, and if that happens the second or third time, then, unless she's married or she makes it clear what's going on, and even sometimes, when they do, I say something, because I have to get it off my chest. See, I'm like this, I'm not a quarter, I can't drag it out, just hurry up and tell me no, so I'm just keeping it.

Speaker 2: 18:43

Tak, we love your insight. I'm going to keep putting you on the spot until you tell me to stop. I mean, it's so much good information, so here's the next one. You ready? Serotonin transporter gene S-L-C-6-A-4 is the nickname Serotonin is a neurotransmitter involved in mood regulation and social behavior. Variations in this serotonin transporter gene have been associated with differences in social anxiety, attachment styles you know you get that girlfriend is overly clingy mood regulation, all of which can impact interpersonal relationships. Give me an example where you feel, or you remember or you first thought about when we talked about this serotonin neurotransmitter being activated, where you're talking about your mood and how you attach to people or you feel anxious in certain situations.

Speaker 3: 19:49

So, yeah, so I've been in different. I've been in different relationships where on the one, it was pretty laid back, right. I was like, okay, I was into her, we interacted, just that, just that that. And then I've been in other relationships and it's like I couldn't get enough. I just couldn't get enough. When we would leave, like we go out to dinner or something and I drop off or whatever that is, I wanted to talk to her some more. I just could not get enough of this person and at one time I was like is she playing me? Is she like starving me of emotions, or is she with the house happening? You know what I'm saying, like what's going on, and I'm not talking about I couldn't get enough physicality or sexuality from her. I just wanted to be like with her. It was crazy. So those, those are kind of the variants down, and that's not typical of me, though, but when it happens, yeah, that happens.

Speaker 2: 20:51

So you can feel it. So you're feeling these genes Like, here's the next one. You ready? I only have one more after this one. I'm not going to, I'm not going to overpower you with these genes, or maybe I will. Let's see Double main receptor genes. We got the DRD2, the DRD4. Those are two different genes. Double main is a neurotransmitter associated with reward and pleasure. Genetic variations in double main receptor genes such as DRD2 and DRD4 have been linked to personality traits related to sociability. So how social you are, sensational seeking. So what kind of thrills, what kind of how are you seeking to activate your senses and risk taking? Right? How, how big of a risk are you willing to take which can influence as a personal relationship? So we talk about activating that reward and pleasure center, right? Tell me about the first situation or experience that came to your mind when you thought about reward, fulfillment, thrill, excitement.

Speaker 3: 22:07

I think I've recognized it as cooperation Meaning when I'm around a woman and the conversation is being we're holding the conversation or we're close proximity. We may be in the gathering of three or five people If I'm talking about a particular thing and and she may be discussing something, if we start bouncing it off of each other, in other words, something might be said where nothing could be responded, or to the nail, to the yay, and if she begins finding the reason to say something positive, say something inclusive of her thoughts, in that that sort of becomes like a short term reward for this little interaction, this little social engineering. And then what I do is you know, I don't drink and I don't smoke, I mean there's just, I just don't do it. Whoever does it, wonderful, I just don't do it.

Speaker 3: 23:07

So what I typically do when that happens to make sure I'm not tripping is, the next time I get around her I try to see what that energy is and if she's still showing some reciprocity or some some Stimulow feedback to the things that I'm saying, when she could choose to go a different direction or point it somewhere else, then I start saying, okay, I'm not tripping, something's here. So that's kind of the example for me, and once I start getting that, you know I read this book by I think his name is Charles do Higg and he talks about forming a habit where, like you said, there's the Q, there's the routine and there's the reward, or sometimes it's actually four or five layers to that. That's what I fall into and I become, you know, aware or cognizant of that for that particular person, and then sometimes things happen. So Talk.

Speaker 2: 24:00

I just want to thank you again for sharing that, because you're sharing things that even I can relate to, so I know that that people listen to our listeners. Our audience, our friends are grateful for this and they can identify with a lot of it. So one of our live studio audience members have a question for you and just calling with the following question how does my DNA affect the way I parent and, based on my DNA, with my siblings parents the same way as I do?

Speaker 2: 24:35

And I joined the video this time, so it is something called every genetics.

Speaker 3: 24:42

Dr Montgomery, epidemiotics could affect that right.

Speaker 2: 24:47

Angie is calling and you know there is a number of things is complicated. It's just like saying will all of my siblings be the same height? Why don't we all look alike? And, like talk said from a previous episode, epigenetics, right. So the environment is going to play a huge role in how we process our genes, our behaviors, our foods, our height. So it's not going to be exact. Will you all have some similar traits? Possibly. But, Angie, go ahead and share with us your question and tell us where you're calling from.

Speaker 2: 25:26

Hello, I'm Collin from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and I was wondering how my DNA affects my parenting style and if my siblings would have similar traits or the same parenting styles that I have. And that is a great question. We do see similarities, but there is not a dedicated end-all be-all to saying it's going to be the same. It's going to be a number of factors and remember, it's a puzzle. So you've got environment, you've got feelings, you've got emotions, you've got life experiences, and then you and your siblings won't have the exact genes from the parents, right? So you're going to have parts from mom and dad, but you may have different parts from mom and dad. So mom and dad are going to give each of you 50% of what they've got, but it won't be the same 50%. Thank you for your call. We'll let you continue to enjoy from our audience Talk. That was a great question.

Speaker 2: 26:27

I didn't get any follow-up questions from the audience, so I'm going to go to the next gene, Vasopressin receptor gene AVPR1A. Vasopressin is another hormone involved in social bonding and aggression. Genetic variations in the vasopressin receptor gene. So when the hormone is secreted, released, it's got to be picked up by something. You see those puzzles and you know how each piece kind of fits together. Would it surprise you to know that those are formed out of our bodies, Like it's formed off the concept of for everything that your body produces, every hormone that's secreted, every enzyme that's secreted, there's a specific shape to it. That shape is attributed or compromised. That shape is attributed or comprised of chemicals, such as your CH and your CH. You know our organic chart or our periodic chart, those elements on there. Those are giving us signals and so it's all about.

Speaker 2: 27:42

We separate it to make it more digestible. So you'll hear about biology, chemistry, physics, biochem, but all of these things are working together at one time in your body and it is helping things identify what picks up? What am I attracted to? How do I identify my receptor or my partner? All of these things are already pre-programmed within us, Our on switches, our off switches. So you got to stay with me. I promise you, over the next couple of episodes we're going to unpack this and by the time we get to episode 100. You all will be like okay, I get it, I get it, this is easy, it's just going to start clicking, clicking, clicking right.

Speaker 2: 28:35

All of these things kind of go together, and so we're talking now about these hormones and how they have the variations in the genes, and then we're looking for the receptors. These receptors are associated with differences in pair bonding, so how they are received to each other. That is attributed to behavior, social recognition and aggression, Like when we talked about the violence in the relationship and that kind of thing, all of which influence interpersonal relationships. So when you think about it in terms of while I'm already pre-coded for that, and then you add your own life experiences to it, and your own environment, and your own food, diet, nutrition, your own toxins, your own chemicals, if you choose to drink or smoke or participate in other activities, or even if you have prescription medicated activities. These are all going to play into those receptors and those things that are already biochemically happening within your body. So when you think about your social bonding and aggression, do you start to understand how the genes that you're already pre-wired for are getting the chance to express themselves in these relationships?

Speaker 3: 30:09

You know, thought, experience, time lens to, I could say, wisdom is a drop. You know, you start making sense out of these things and for me, I could see it. I could see it happening.

Speaker 2: 30:25

And I want people to start. This is kind of where I am. I want our audience, our listeners, our friends to start thinking about everything that they're doing in terms of relationships, including how their genetics play a part to it, because when we're thinking about a problem or we're thinking about something that we want to solve, improve or make better, we have to look at all of the things that contribute to or become a factor in that, and that includes our genetics. Sometimes we think about our parents or our previous relationships. We think about other things that have happened to us in our lives or even with our parents, and we start blaming mom or blaming dad. But when we are handling these things and we're talking about how to improve these relationships, I just want us to be mindful that there's more at play. So thank you, toc, for sharing so much about your intimate life and your relationships. I'm going to invite you back as we start thinking about questions that other people may have or that our listeners email us in. Sometimes I get things in the DM. I want to continue this relationship journey because I think it's a lot to unpack. So, as we conclude this insightful first step in our journey through the genetic bond and how DNA shapes our relationships. We myself, your host, your girl, dr Symphony Montgomery, and our co-host today and guest, toc Williams, want to thank you for being a part of today's conversation. Through this episode, we ventured into the genetic intricacies that underpin our familial and romantic relationships, shedding light on how our genetic blueprints influences our interactions throughout our life.

Speaker 2: 32:40

At DemystifyingDNA, our core mission is to make the sophisticated realm of genetics accessible and comprehensible to all, stripping away the jargon to reveal the fascinating truths to connect us all at the molecular level. We hope this episode has sparked your curiosity and enhanced your understanding of genetic ties that bind us, encouraging a deeper appreciation for the role of DNA in shaping the essence of our relationships. Stay engaged, keep questioning and continue to join us on DemystifyingDNA, where we make the wonders of genetics easy to understand for everyone. Together, let's explore the marvels of our genetic makeup and how it influences every facet of our lives. Remember we're here to guide you through the genetic journey, making science easy to consume and meaningful. And lastly, don't forget we are with you every step of the way. National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-7233, or you can text the word START-S-T-A-R-T 288-788.

Speaker 1: 34:23

P-23. Knowledge, access, power, p-23, wellness and Understanding at your fingertips. P-23. And that's no cap.