Former Abortionists Speak Out

How does the abortion industry shape language and conscience over time? How does moral relativism make the unthinkable feel routine? Why is abortion often driven by fear, shame, and a sense of unwantedness?

Two practicing OBGYNs once saw abortion as normal medicine. Then something happened that neither training nor politics could explain away and it changed everything. This week we talk with Dr. Catherine Wheeler and Dr. John Bruchowski about the moments that shattered the “fog,” the cost of facing what they had done, what truth plus grace looks like for healing and action, and why they now speak publicly for life. 

If you care about abortion, pro-life advocacy, medical ethics, and real-world support for women, this conversation will challenge you. Subscribe for more, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. 

Transcript

A Stark Opening On Regret

Dr. John Bruchalski 0:03

Women who had to be shocked into the reality of regretting their abortion, the dreams, the sounds, the fear, the anxiety, the panic. I really think that doctors, whether whatever aspect of medicine they're in, they begin to realize that there's an aspect of what they do that is barbaric or cruel.

Victor Nieves 0:50

God holds the whole universe in His Hands. And takes the time to carefully knit us all together in our mother's womb. People hear that having an abortion is a safe experience, but abortion is intentionally killing an innocent child. Why then would an abortion doctor change his or her mind about the morality of abortion and then become a Christian? And why do some never change their mind? We cannot be silent about this critical issue, so today we've invited Dr. Wheeler and Dr. Bruchalkski to share their stories of how they went from an abortionist to a proud advocate for

Meet The Hosts And Guests

Victor Nieves 1:03

life. Welcome to Straight Talk on Life Issues. I'm Victor Nieves, president of Life Issues Institute. Dr. Katherine Wheeler is an OBGYN physician who practiced in Salt Lake City, Utah for 24 years. Dr. Bruchalski is known throughout Northern Virginia and much of the United States as a great pro-life doctor. Dr. Wheeler and Dr. Bruchalski, thank you both so much for joining us today.

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 1:24

Thank you for the opportunity to be with you and to your audience.

Dr. John Bruchalski 1:27

Yeah, it's great to be here.

Two Doctors Describe Their Turning Points

Victor Nieves 1:39

Well, I think the best place for us to start, I would love to get both of your stories. What have you done? What's the trajectory that got you to where you are today? Because both of you are such wonderful voices for the unborn. And I think people will gain a lot from hearing your testimonies. Dr. Bruchalski?

Dr. John Bruchalski 1:55

For the first two years of my residency, I performed abortions as part of good reproductive health to help liberate women from the chains of their fertility. And it wasn't political, it was really medical. My female friends told me that I had a knack for listening, and this is what they needed abortion on demand. And so I did it. And little by little, I moved through that process, moving away from how I was raised. And then the educational system came on board and said everything's relative. And uh there's many pathways to health and life. And so I just went along and slowly but surely got further and further into what it means to provide abortion on demand. And I took part in a failed abortion, and I found the actions of what I did absolutely face to face despicable in the name of mercy in medicine. And from that moment on, many pieces of data, friendships, women who regretted their abortion helped inform me. And I'm sure my parents continuing to pray for me. I had a change of heart and for the last 34 years practiced life-affirming medicine halfway through my residency and all of my professional life.

Victor Nieves 3:10

Dr. Wheeler?

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 3:11

So I actually, in residency, also was the first time that I came face to face with abortion in my life and uh trained at the University of Utah. And at that facility, we did abortions or offered them for women who had babies with special needs. We would have called that genetic syndromes and severe birth defects, but we all know what we're talking about. It was under the guise of this is how we help women. These are horrible situations, they're really difficult. And she has a choice whether she will have this baby. It was interesting. It was other than the rest of medical care, which is we have two patients, and everything we do is to save both lives and maximize the health of both. And suddenly in that part of our training, we never talked about the baby. It was all about this is hard. She has a legal choice. And if you care about women, this is one of the things that you'll do. I will say at that time I'd grown up in a pastor's family, actually, and had made a conscious decision in college, believed the sexual revolution, and I knew I was walking away from God. And the outcome of that came at 50 years old. It's all about broken relationships and it's all brokenness, is what it is. As far as ending doing abortions, I mostly had a primary GYN practice and in early practice did abortions if in the second trimester, unfortunately, although they're all awful, did abortions if my patients requested it, but my name wasn't out there as an abortionist. And one day in the middle of an abortion, God just took my blinders off. It's hard, I can't even tell you what happened that day. It was like any other day in an operating room when suddenly I was aware of literally an evil, dark black presence and heard in my head, you're about to kill a baby. And in the middle of that, I had started. So now what do you do? And with complete awareness of taking the life of a baby, I finished and just never did. I said, I don't know what that was, but I am surely never doing this again. This is pure evil. And uh didn't have a framework for how to deal with that. So I just pushed it away. And 15 years later became a Christian. In the first few years, I met people like John and a few other former abortionists who gave me the courage, who showed me what it looked like to stand against the great evil of abortion and to help people to understand what we're really talking about. We're not talking about rights and empowering women. We're talking about destruction, is what we're talking about, pure evil.

Victor Nieves 5:42

Dr. Wheeler and Dr. Bruchalski, I want to thank you both very quickly here for sharing your stories with us. What you have lived through, what you have experienced, I think is perhaps the most powerful testimony to those who are outside of the industry, to those who are outside, and maybe they're on the fence, they're trying to make up their mind. What do they really think about abortion? Well, listen to the people who have done it. Listen to the people who have seen, they've looked that evil in the face. And I am so incredibly grateful for the work that both of you do and the courage that it takes to come out and fight for life, especially with such a unique history and background in your testimony is incredible.

How Culture Normalizes Abortion

Victor Nieves 6:18

I noticed something, both of you kind of referenced this. Dr. Wheeler, you know, you had mentioned the cultural changes. Dr. Bruchalski, you mentioned this moral relativism that we had seen. How big of a role do you believe that is in the medical industry? Because correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anybody as a little kid or anybody who's going into medicine thinks, you know, when I grow up, I want to do abortions. I want to be somebody who is an abortion, quote unquote, doctor. That's not really something people often think about. And we have a moral standard in this country, we have intuitive knowledge, we have things like this that have to kind of be corrupted. And I think the abortion industry has proven very effective at this. And they'll hijack whether it's moral relativism or any other cultural movement to try and pull people away from the foundations that they grew up with. How do they do that? What makes the abortion industry so effective? Because nobody really wants to be an abortionist, yet they continue to find more to do it.

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 7:14

Yeah. Do you know? I would see it as a frog in the water with it heating up. Um, this is really a capturing of the mind and the heart of people. It's I can't remember who it was who said this, but if they can get you to believe in an absurdity, they can get you to commit an atrocity. It's all about introducing into our brains thoughts that are just when you're younger and innocent, we all know these are human beings that we're killing. But there's this just this gradual indoctrination into our thoughts through everything around us. And if we don't get to our children in advance and ground them in God, in the dignity of every single human being, of the beauty of marriage between a man and a woman for an entire lifetime, a covenantal commitment that you never leave or betray the other person and raise your kids. Like we've got to get ahead of this. And that's the only way is to raise up the good, true, and beautiful for our children. And then this will be completely unthinkable. We'll just reject it outright.

Dr. John Bruchalski 8:19

Yeah, I can't agree enough, Catherine, with that assessment. We both started out with brokenness. Everything seems to be broken, especially when our mind gets darkened and our hearts get hardened and our will gets weakened. Adding just to what you beautifully said, there are emotional drivers to why women seek abortion. Shame, guilt. They commit a mistake of sleeping with somebody who doesn't give a darn about them. Yeah. And this idea of unwantedness becomes the driver and it is absolutely relativistic. Meaning in my world, in one room, I save the baby because, and I call it a baby because the mom wanted it, the woman wanted it. Very next room, right across, like right in the next very room, same diagnosis, same problem, the mother says, get it out of me. And I do that. And so, you know, Catherine spoke about it, but just like she said, we have to get to those drivers of why, because now we're doing chemical abortions. And they, once again, you know, when you say it's not medicine, there's no oversight, there's no doctor visit, there's no reporting of side effects. It comes over the internet with no real questions, no ultrasounds. And then they have it in their house. Then they're told to go to the emergency room, lie about it. Oh, it's just a miscarriage. And the data is skewed, the process, and there, the numbers are still going up. So it takes, I think, a both and approach, just like Catherine said, the truth and parents and Jesus and God and the true, good, and beautiful. But I also think we have to create safe spaces that our children know that they're loved and that they're made to love sexually to combat the sexual revolution, but also within the home and within the school and within the pro-life movement. I think that's what I've learned through, say, APLOG and the CMA and the CMDA, the medical doctors who kind of live their faith, but also live the science. It's this faith, but it's also the reason. And it's really going after those emotional drivers to create a safe space where those attachment needs can be met. And maybe the young woman in front of us or the older woman would say, you know what, I want to hear you out.

Reaching Abortion Workers With Safe Spaces

Victor Nieves 10:37

Dr. Bruchalski, you mentioned some of the things that we can do to protect the next generation. What are some of the things that we can do to reach out to those who are currently in the abortion industry, whether they're working in one of the facilities or whether they're the abortionists themselves? Is there anything concrete that we can be doing to kind of snap them out of it? So I would almost liken it to something of a trance that the abortion industry puts people in. How do we bridge that gap? How do we get to the abortionist?

Dr. John Bruchalski 11:04

You bring up such a good topic. Both Catherine and I have begun a conversation about how to reach out to our brothers and sisters on that side of the fence. All I know is that when you're in that trance and you are closed off interiorly, something has to happen on their side. Because remember, it's not a conversational, it's not something that you kind of rationalize to. I would say it's something experiential. In my case, it was a failed abortion, just like Gossnell. No, I didn't take a scissors to the back of the neck. I kind of did that when we were doing our DNXs. But what I did was I just tried to suffocate the living born child. I literally tried to suffocate it, suffocate it after it was born. Because really, the reasons we kill inside the womb are the same as infanticide. I'm hoping that just like women who had to be shocked into the reality of regretting their abortion, the dreams, the sounds, the fear, the anxiety, the panic, I really think that doctors, whether whatever aspect of medicine they're in, they begin to realize that there's an aspect of what they do that is barbaric or cruel. And then as we get out in the system and we make our rounds, somehow they find us, and we should be doing a better job asking them out in California at the California March for Life. Like I started speaking to the University of San Francisco in the backdrop, because that's a large, you know, it's very few doctors do abortions. They're trying to train abortionists. They're doing the cutting edge of abortion care, quote unquote. The abomination of that. And I think that's where we can make a difference by sharing with them our testimonies. Catherine, you and I began this conversation, but I think you've maybe thought through this more. What do you think?

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 12:54

Yeah, I think what you said about safe spaces is so incredibly important. And you and some others held some of that safe space for me. Because here's the thing when you've done something absolutely atrocious, like you can't even believe that you've done it. And then what do you do? Like the first thing you do is you deny it. You're like, well, I can't talk about this. This is horrendous. Like, who does this? And then I don't know how you move forward from that without knowing that Jesus actually paid for that. Like it has to go beyond like somebody forgives me and I take this lightly. Absolutely not. Jesus died a horrific, horrific death and paid for it legally. It's all paid for, and we have to receive that. That is necessary. And then it's so good on the other side. I try to as much as I can in public say, come out of the dark. It's so much better here. Oh, it's freedom here. And you can help others to see what's going on. But I think the other thing is it's a process. So, you know, experience has to happen. For me, it was the horror of seeing that. That was actually killing a human being, which you can't explain the darkness or the fog. You can't explain it. It's demonic. And so then on the other side of that, offering a place for healing and being able to, like I've spent the last almost 15 years trying to get all the lies out of my head and trying to replace it with the truth. It has to be confronted. So you have to have cognitive dissonance and you have to think through all the things that you believe that got you to the point of being able to do something as horrific. And I see that's one of the spaces where the prior abortionists can really provide safe places. We have no stones to throw. Like we're the worst of the sinners. And God has redeemed us. And so we can help people as they go through that process of how did I get here and receiving forgiveness and new life on the other side. We don't deserve it. And it's been freely given to us.

Victor Nieves 14:53

Dr. Wheeler, you mentioned what I would consider to be the hardening of the heart. And this is something that, you know, people need to understand. This isn't new to our day and age. This isn't new just to the topic of abortion. This goes back as long as mankind has been on this earth. We look through our history textbook and you can find a dozen or more examples, and you think, man, how did that ever happen? How did society ever get to the place where we did, whether it's chattel slavery or where we did, you know, these horrible things that we've done? It's the hardening of the heart, and much of it happens progressively. And you could ask any individual that was involved in any atrocity against human rights all throughout history, how did you get here? It's a hardening of the heart, and a lot of times it is slow. You also mentioned, Dr. Wheeler, something I think is so important as we have the conversation surrounding abortion, and that's this reconciliation with the fact that abortion really is profoundly evil. And there are so many people in our country who have been involved in an abortion. In the church, this is true in the church. This is true on college campuses. There are men who have paid for an abortion and that lives with them for the rest of their life. There are women who have had abortions, those who have participated parents who have pressured their children into getting an abortion. In order to finally make the jump to be pro-life, there is a reconciliation that has to happen. There has to be, and so as a pro-life advocate, sometimes we run into people and we can't rationalize in our head why there's such a vehement defense of abortion. Well, because if you defend it to kind of prevent yourself from realizing what actually happened, what was actually the thing that you were involved in. And that's where I have a word of caution both to myself and to anybody else in the movement. We have to have truth. We have to be a movement that is founded on the truth, that abortion kills an innocent human being. But if we look at the gospel, and I hope to get to what the role of the church can be going forward, we have to have grace and truth. We don't have truth without grace. We don't have grace without truth. We have to have grace and truth. And so when people do have that moment of reconciliation and they realize what they have done, what they've been a part of, I love the community that you two are making. And that's such a, in my opinion, a living out of the gospel and saying the cross is sufficient. Yes, absolutely. You've come from these terrible things, you're not alone. Many people have done, all of us uh have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The Church And Grace Plus Truth

Victor Nieves 17:01

What do you view both of you as the role of the church in this? Because I see the church as foundational to absolutely everything. And I think that that's the missing piece in many ways, to getting people out of this trance. Dr. Bruchalski.

Dr. John Bruchalski 17:14

You know, all the data says that there are as many people inside the church as outside the church who are part of the abortion tragedy. Paul is very clear about I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I want to do. And through fear and trembling, I'm gonna finish the race. I think the churches have diluted this message that scripture and tradition are fully pro-life, that scripture, and when you begin the freedom, the challenge of not having clear teaching in our churches in the body, we really have to be much more of disciples and to be witnesses. And it's almost a pre-evangelization, it's almost a pre-witnessing or the pre-discipleship, because it's not cheap. It's definitely not cheap, grace. And there is a violence of love here where confronting people and giving them the truth in a loving manner. And I just think the church has kind of lost sight of that. It's almost the world has become numb. It's just one of many issues on the fabric of the social justice or the gospel commitment. And obviously, after abortion, you know, we've now gone on to gender issues. And we're now talking about AI and pregnancy robots in China and artificial wombs. I really think that the church needs to kind of really re-examine themselves, just like we all do. We need to be examining ourselves. And I think that in whatever denomination we're in, there's teachings there that have been there from the beginning. And it seems like sometimes we're the last bastion of the church. But when you see church as the body of Christ on earth, I do think that it is very responsible. We have to be responsible to our pastors and our shepherds, because both Catherine and I, sometimes that story of the good Samaritan, well, I think we're the innkeepers, meaning, you know, Jesus is really the good Samaritan. And we're there trying to take in and give what Jesus has already done. But I do think that we, as the doctors on this side, really have to have conversations with our pastors and to begin that process within our home church or within the bigger church, you know, the creedal church, where we experience the relationship with Jesus Christ. And, you know, we talk about loving God with all our heart and then loving our neighbor as ourselves. Catherine and I keep talking about it's a process, and we're learning over the years to allow the power of Jesus Christ to love us, but then to allow us to love ourselves so we can walk the walk and follow in the footsteps of so many of those who've gone before us or who have that cloud of witnesses we talk about. And I think we can do that just as we begin to witness to our pastors and our priests and our rabbis and to say, hey, we found a better way. And how can we have a conversation here to help the church kind of return to its roots? Because I'm convinced that at one time, most of us really looked at the reproductive health issues and said, no, no, God has a better plan for us than this. And that's how I would start this answer, Catherine.

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 20:24

Yeah, thank you, John. That's awesome. I would say this is based on the Coulson Fellowship framework on how do we participate in redemption of a broken world? Because those of us who are believers realize that right now Jesus is already in the midst of redeeming and recreating a world, that he's gonna come back and finish crushing the evil and casting it out. And so we're participators through the Holy Spirit in us. And the Coulson framework is basically four things. We hold up the good, true, and beautiful as sacred as it is, we hold up that image to the world. This is what it looks like, which is why I started with male, female marriage, children with a permanent covenantal relationship as a gift to God and spreading his image through the world. And secondly, you know, I've, like John, have been in and out of a lot of churches since I became a Christian 15 years ago. And I'm just gonna be frank. I've been invited to some lately who are taking bold stands, but the majority of them want nothing to do with God's ministry, with life and abortion. They're cowarding. And I go back to what happened in the Holocaust, which part of my awareness of the evil I did was through listening to Holocaust survivors and realizing that I am a Nuremberg doctor, that ordinary people still have evil down the middle of their hearts, and that God still redeems us. All of us have evil in the middle of our heart. That's the fallenness. And so we have to speak about it in the churches. If you look and see where the abortion industry is lying and silencing the people who Make a difference, like men, like the churches, like the people who've been involved. That's the front line. That's where churches need to be standing and in a redemptive way saying, you know what, we're all sinners. Jesus died for every sin. And if you've had an abortion or been involved, here's somebody who can talk to you about the redemption and love of Jesus. You don't have to carry this. That's the abortion industry shaming people to shut them up and make them hide. The churches cannot be silent. That's the evil one. The next thing is help and hope is the Good Samaritan. And that broken person beat up on the side that Jesus sees and brings to the innkeeper. That's the harvest. That's the harvest at the end of times. And we are, thank you, John, for the innkeeper. I hadn't quite put that piece in it yet, but we are. We are the workers of the harvest. And this is the end of the harvest. We're getting close. Will Jesus find us working when he comes back? Will we have oil in our lamp? And as John said, there's going to be a cost. This is Bonhoeffer's time. And if you look at Eric Metaxis's book, Letter to the American Church, he says, you know, 5,000 of the 20,000 churches went with the Nazis, 10,000 sat like cowards in the middle while people were being destroyed and killed around them and stood up. And because of the cowardice, the 5,000 took a worse hit than they would have if 15,000 had stood together against the great evil. So help and hope is super important. This church is a safe place. If you become pregnant, do you know what? There's grace. We love you. We will stand with you. We will not abandon you. We'll do everything we can. And then the last part, which is maybe the first part, is to stand against the evil of our time. Like we can't be cowards. I think it was Bonhoeffer who said if you see a madman driving into a crowd, we don't just sit and wait and bury the dead and patch people up. We get in front of the vehicle and save people. And that's going to be a cost. It's going to hit us. But man, the grace, they're just taking over. We've just laid down and given our culture over to complete destruction if we don't stand up. So whatever it takes, I'm thankful to Charlie Kirk and some of the others, Ella Cook, who was killed in Rhode Island where I'm originally from. Like they've been such witnesses to me. It's worth everything to be the word out there that they're going to try to kill, but it's the truth. And that's what's going to save people is speaking the truth.

Victor Nieves 24:31

Man, between the two of you, I think anybody listening should be ready to run through a brick wall. There is a fight to be had. And uh there is a time and a place. And the church, man, I couldn't say it better than than what you said, Dr. Wheeler. The church needs to learn to have a backbone and stand up for these things. I I the cherry on top that I'll give it is my goodness, if you're a if you're a pastor, someone one day will correct my theology. I'm open to it, I suppose. But if you're a pastor, I would rather stand before the pearly gates and have God tell me, hey, you went a little too hard. You fought a little too hard, then get to the pearly gates and have him ask why I didn't say a thing. Why'd you sit there and do nothing? We had 1.1 million abortions last year. Where are you at? Where is the church at? You know, there's another institution in American life, obviously the church is the most important, but we do also have a government.

Policy Priorities And Chemical Abortion Risks

Victor Nieves 25:16

We have potentially elected officials who are listening to this program right now. I think that there is a time and a place where, yes, we need a good culture, but the law can also serve as a tutor, morally speaking. We do see that when the law becomes degenerate, you we end up with a worse society and vice versa. What would you like to see elected officials do? What legislation would you like to see as we fight for life, even as it pertains particularly to the abortion industry? Is there anything there that would be profitable for us to pursue as far as legislation?

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 25:46

Man, so much. And you said it well. You can't remember who said that God rules over every square inch. And, you know, this giving up of the law has been so destructive because it does shape the normality of, I mean, is this they've been very strategic in taking over the higher institutions, the field of medicine has abandoned true ethics. And the legal profession, well, that's our last, other than God, our last stronghold is the legal profession bringing lawsuits. But our legislators, and you have to see that they're underneath the fog. I live in Colorado. They're completely overtaken by the fog. And so we pray for their mercy. But, you know, any law that can provide support and help for women and pre-born children, anything that can expose the darkness here in Colorado, we're trying, we have no regulation or oversight. Kind of like what happened with Gosnell, as you know, there's no oversight and abortions are done and they're proud of it. And they invite people from other places and pay for them to come here for abortions through the entire pregnancy, and they're proud of it. And so anything we can do to expose the harms, including to women, we care about both, but to expose the dark and the evil underbelly of this thing, then obviously laws that protect pre-born children also protect women. Because women, you know, the lie is that you're gonna go into this black box, some kind of voodoo happens and you come out the other side, it never happened, and you just go on with your life. No, women's lives, and they may push it down like I did for about 15 years, but it is there damaging everything in your life, and you don't even know it. And so everything that we can do to end abortion, to support women and children, and to help men step into their role of responsibility of providers and protectors and committed dads. And there are a lot of them out there who want to be. We have got to support the men. Feminism has, I mean, you know, it's not all feminism, but it has crushed the protectors. And the abortion industry has silenced the protectors. Let's raise up the men and support them. Say something wonderful to every man you see with a child. That's what I say. So, yes, there's a lot we can do in the law. We don't lay down. You look for every opportunity to expose, to bring in the good, and to defeat the evil.

Dr. John Bruchalski 28:09

Well, I think she said it eloquently, and I think she really hit the major points of how you can approach, you know, I'm Polish, and my country was tortured by the Nazis, then tortured by the communists. And I had family members die murdered in the late 70s because they joined the wrong trade union. So the only thing that I could add to Catherine's comments is martyrdom. I know that when, well, first off, the abortion idea is a lie, and women know it because they regret it, and the shame and the voices that are inside their heads right now, all of us who've been a part of it, is active right now. I'm not enough, I need more, I'm not happy, I'm anxious. That's the lies are built on top of each other. So I actually think it's a paper tiger, meaning they've now moved to chemical abortions because they can't find doctors to do these surgical abortions. So they're bypassing the system with no oversight. The trauma and the tragedy and the atrocity of having the abortion occur in your home, in your bed, on your hallway, in your bathroom. And you're gonna see it, you're gonna pick it up, and what do you do with it? You're gonna dump it in the water supply, you're gonna flush it down the toilet. That's where they go. And that trauma is gonna be the pathway. Because once again, my state is looking to enshrine abortion on demand, including afterbirth in our constitution, just like so many states have done. Why? Because yes, everybody thinks they want it, but it's poisoned. And deep down inside, where we don't talk about because we're constantly using our defense mechanisms. So, yes, every law can help. But I think the reality is gonna be until we, like up my Polish brothers and sisters, join the trade union Solidarność and take over the Gdask shipyard and then get shot outside because we tested that death. And just like Bonhoeffer, just like Max Colby, just like all our church's martyrs during World War II, and you know, obviously throughout, you know, the last 2,000 years, this blood of the martyrs is the seat of the church. I think for us to retake the church as well as the government, we're gonna have to help each other find that peace that surpasses all understanding to be able to do this legally, church-wise, medically. You groups like this Institute of Life Issues, having programs like this, I think that's what you're really calling us to, is to that evangelical, like that book of acts again, to say, yes, we can stand up. And after Stephen gets stoned, things changed. And that's when the church really grew in that evangelical spirit of the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of truth, fighting a civilization. So I would say that's the only thing I would add is that we're getting to that point where we're gonna have to do a little bit of that sacrifice alongside this witness that we're doing on the legal side into the churches.

The Wider Cultural Web And Final Charge

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 31:10

Do you know? I think people see this as just abortion, but I have a dear friend Wendy Smith who just always points out to me this is a dark web. The evil one doesn't care how he takes down humanity. He'll use anything. So this is all connected to addiction, to, you know, again, I'm in Colorado. Marijuana is not a benign thing. It's a high potency thing. It's connected to homelessness, it's connected to prostitution. And they're gonna keep pushing. You think it's just abortion. Here in Colorado, this year, we had laws to be the first state to legalize prostitution, and no jurisdiction could back down from it. This year it got dropped. They're coming back. They're coming for our children. They just have a law to protect women and children, domestic violence and separation. And they include in their language it's coercive control and healthcare abuse. And you may not get custody of your child if you don't affirm them and agree with abortion. That's in a domestic violence law. They're coming after, you know, if you abuse children sexually, you know, that's just a deviance. That's actually not even a deviance. They just have a preference for children. Like it's not gonna end. This has to stop now. It has to stop now.

Dr. John Bruchalski 32:28

Yes. Yeah, Catherine, I can't agree with you more because all of those are connected at its core. And it's like trying to hit a hydra. There's just another approach to it as you begin to hear the language we're using in reproductive health around just say some of these LGBTQ issues regarding moral victimization and, you know, the whole attitude that trauma and addiction and human formation, like you say, is weakened. And so they're gonna take advantage of whatever area they can. And uh, I'm grateful that you pointed that out spot on.

Victor Nieves 33:04

Well, Dr. Wheeler and Dr. Bruchalski, thank you both so much for your testimony today. Thank you for your insight. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Dr. Catherine Wheeler 33:12

Victor, thank you so much for what you're doing. It's wonderful work.

Dr. John Bruchalski 33:15

Victor, thank you so much.

Resources And Closing Invitation

Victor Nieves 33:28

Anytime we get the chance to peer behind the curtain, to see and hear from those who were in the industry, did abortions themselves. I think that they have among the most powerful testimonies of anybody in the national conversation surrounding uh the topic of abortion. If there was someone that you should listen to, it's those who have seen it firsthand. They have done it themselves, they've been face to face with the evil of what abortion truly is. And now they're very bold, they're very brave, and I'm so appreciative of them, their courage to share in defense of life, to share the truth of what really happens in abortion. I'm just so grateful to Dr. Bruchalski and Dr. Wheeler. I want to encourage you, our listener, to visit our website, lifeissues.org. There we'll have resources and information to help you defend life as well. Share it with your friends, your family members, your church community, and share this program to someone that you think would be blessed by it. Be sure to tune in next week for another straight talk on life issues.