joylily young: "nomadic: burrowing the roots of home into hearts"

my lovely wife, joylily, is an enneagram #2 ("the helper") through & through. wherever she goes (which, geographically speaking, has been all over). her loving support of the people in her life was one of the biggest factors in not-so-slowly falling in love with who she is, nearly a decade ago. 

along with her constant desire to pursue adventure & ability to bring light to dark places, it's easy to admire so many things about her. for me, she is the chaos to my order (that's positive, believe me). the beauty of our home. the mother to our sweet children (3 present and 1 on the other side of this life). we have been through so much together...ya know, only making this one of the most loaded and also most daunting episodes. how do you take a step back & even try to convey the essence of someone so dear to you, that you literally wake up next to every morning, in a measly 2 hours of a podcast? well, this is my attempt at just that. :)

for being someone so nomadic, with an uncanny ability to pick up, leave & go where being lead almost effortlessly, it has been so beautiful seeing firsthand the fruit of joy's putting roots down. these days, she embodies "grow where you are planted." i want that to be an encouragement to you, the listener, to really dig in where you are right now...hard as it may be, you are here for a reason 💛

Transcript

will 0:24

Hey, welcome. Will here. I feel so privileged to get to do another shout-out for another sponsor. Um, this time around it's my mom, and you know, she's shown up for me once or twice in my life. Seriously, mom, I'm so so thankful for you buying three of my coffees on Buy Me a Coffee to support this season. That's just uh just incredible. It fits so much. You and and dad, of course, have been such a huge support of basically every one of my endeavors, whether it be um as I've gone on through them or even helping me get things up off the ground through hearing me out and inspirations. And so um just thank you so much for the coffees here. The that $15 will once I'm in a resting season for this podcast, that will keep it up for an entire three months. And so just thank you so much. And um, that will give people more of an opportunity to get to come and listen to these great conversations that I get to have. So um just thank you, thank you. With that being said, everyone else listening, this is it. This is the wrap-up episode for um season two. It only took me two years, two whole seasons to get it out. Uh didn't plan on that, but I I got out three last year, end of 24, and then these three super jam-packed episodes that I feel so inspired by. I'm here to wrap up season two, and we'll see what's on the horizon. I of course would love to do this again to be back here. Um I've already got some ideas for guests for season three, people that I feel like would bring something really interesting to this and um have some really cool stories to share. And so more to come when? Probably, I don't know, for whatever reason, fall, winter time has always felt really right for this project, which really trips me up even to this day, but it always feels right. So I'm not gonna question it too much, but don't be surprised if it's not until this time, uh, maybe October ish of 2026, by the time I'm back. But uh we'll see. We'll see what happens here. So until then, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all your support. I may still even end up doing a like a wrap-up episode, kind of like I did for season one, where I just point out some of the highlights and things that I learned throughout the season from each guest, and maybe even throw out some updates of guests I've had in the past from season one or um even season two, because the beauty of life is a lot of their stories have have had some really tremendous updates, and God has done some really cool things in their life, and so just uh excited to get to potentially put something like that out soon. So keep an eye out. All that to say, thank you. Alright, let's get into this episode. Hey, welcome to the Wildflowers Podcast. I'm Will, and this evening I have my lovely wife, Joy Lily, on. And um, it's a vibe in here. We're in our detached garage studio, um, which is where we recorded the last couple episodes, but um unlike last year when we recorded Melanie and Kevin's, we have a mini split set up, and so we have heat, and that makes all the difference. So taking in the vibe right now. It's December 1st, it's evening, it's snowing outside right now, and we're talking about wildflowers. So, but welcome, Joy.

joylily 4:03

Thank you. Feel honored to be here.

will 4:05

Yeah, it's an honor to have you. I was thinking about this episode a lot, because it's daunting. Um, this is probably the episode where I've had to take a step back the very most to truly like analyze you. And not that it's the I mean your story is so different, and you're so different from who I am, but I think it's just this like, how do I do this person justice that I literally get to spend every day of my life with? You know.

joylily 4:39

Yeah. When I think I think Mel is the only person you've known longer than me. Does that sound right? That you've had on this podcast.

will 4:48

You know, I Is that right Jesse and I met when I was 11.

joylily 4:52

That's right. Okay.

will 4:55

But beyond that, I think I've known Ian longer than you.

joylily 5:00

Has he been on this podcast?

will 5:02

Uh-huh. Yeah. He was he's the one who kicked off season two.

joylily 5:06

Oh wow.

will 5:06

Whoops. It's a great episode. Please listen.

joylily 5:10

I think I did even listen to it.

will 5:11

You did. I know you did, because you told me about it and you had thoughts on how good it was and how funny we were.

joylily 5:17

That's right, because it was really funny.

will 5:19

Yeah, totally.

joylily 5:20

Okay, yeah, you're right, you're right.

will 5:21

But um, no, I think that's it. I think those are the people I've known the longest I've had on. Yeah. So there's a handful.

joylily 5:29

Okay, that's good. That's good.

will 5:31

Yeah, but I I mean, unlike people who I've been friends with for a long time, which I'm so, so thankful for those friendships, but obviously our relationship is a little different, and I feel like your wildflower gets to be observed, and I get to benefit from it so much more clearly on a daily basis. And so that's just a beautiful thing, of course.

joylily 5:54

Oh thank you.

will 5:56

But let's start off. I mean, how I know you. Um we met like 10 years ago now. Yep, September 2015. Um met each other through a young adult small group. And I'd gone a couple weeks and I think you also went, but I will always remember walking in there and you were like, Who are you? And just like it was just it rubbed me all the wrong way when it was just that was you at that time. I mean, it still is in some ways, but it was if it makes you feel better.

joylily 6:33

I definitely introduced myself or rather asked our most recent hire at work, who are you the other day too when she came by. Because it just feels like a really I don't know, very quick way to get to know somebody. Either they laugh or they don't, and if they laugh, then we probably will hit it off as friends.

will 6:53

Well, it it is like the elephant in the room is I have no idea who you are. Yes. So like let's address that.

joylily 6:59

Well, and I think so many times people try to pretend that they like know somebody or that they'll they'll like keep talking in case they catch on to who this person is.

will 7:09

Yeah.

joylily 7:09

And I would rather just establish it with like, hey, who are you exactly?

will 7:14

Yeah.

joylily 7:14

And then we can go from there.

will 7:16

Absolutely. No, I think it's good. I mean it now looking back, it seems like it seems really fitting that I think right off the bat we felt like the the opposite ends of a of a magnet coming together and kind of repelling each other ever so slightly. Because you, except for that exchange, didn't really want to have anything to do with me.

joylily 7:40

Yeah, no. So the first time that I saw you was actually the week before that, I believe. Uh-huh. At the Chick-fil-A when we had a special event for the young adults. And um, you had long hair. Uh-huh. And that was all the reason I needed to not talk to you. Because surely a guy with long hair could not possibly love Jesus.

will 8:03

No, definitely not.

joylily 8:04

Don't know what he's doing here. Maybe it's outreach. Um, but no, I was a very different person back then, and I had a few opinions that were um very close-I don't even know if close-minded is for the right word, but just very like I hadn't seen another side of things.

will 8:29

Yeah.

joylily 8:29

And and so I think I I ran everything through a really narrow filter.

will 8:35

No, I understand. I think it was good for me though, too, because again, like thinking back and reminiscing on and like how I know you and all that stuff for doing this. I was just like, wow, we you know, unlike my last podcast with like Colin, where I feel like we both grew up very much so in the same area and had like really very similar experiences considering yours and I's like backgrounds. Aside from like faith connection and I'm sure a handful of other things, there were a lot of differences. I think I didn't go to college, I was actually kind of like at that time of meeting you, like kind of staunchly like anti-college. Um and and you did. Um just that as an example, you know, that kind of thing. Something that kind of butt heads over a little bit.

joylily 9:29

Yeah. I remember even one of our first conversations, you saying that you hadn't even ever been on a plane, hadn't ever left the US.

will 9:38

Well that so the first those are not true either of them, but I was on a plane when I was seven, but I hadn't been since then.

joylily 9:48

Okay, sorry. I didn't know.

will 9:50

And then I did drive into Canada one time because.

joylily 9:52

Okay, that doesn't count as leaving the US.

will 9:55

It doesn't? No. Driving into Canada?

joylily 9:58

Canada is essentially an extension of the US.

will 10:01

I mean, it's part of North America, but I don't it's still another country, technically. I still have never been to another country besides the United States and that little bit of Canada. Yeah, right above Niagara Falls.

joylily 10:12

So that's that's what I'm talking about. I'm like, you don't Niagara Falls is so like touristy that you really haven't left the US.

will 10:20

That's probably true. Yeah.

joylily 10:22

Um, but no, those are I remember you telling me that and me being like, wow, like how does somebody even do that? Like how do how do you just not go overseas? How do you not just like hop on a plane, you know, once or twice a year? Totally. And even those things were in a funny way kind of mind-blowing to me too.

will 10:42

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean you're half Honda, and that was a whole other aspect of just like cultural difference. I mean, um, like in that gave you reason, I guess I'm trying to say, like, to actually go out of the country and have visited family down there and whatnot.

joylily 11:00

And no, that's true. Being a missionary, if we didn't go out of the country, we never would have met that side of the family until well, basically until I left my own house.

will 11:09

So Right.

joylily 11:10

Yeah. It would have been a very different existence.

will 11:13

Yeah, absolutely. But no, it that all of the differences aside, I think it took us an entire three weeks to conjure up uh coming true to our feelings for one another.

joylily 11:27

Yes.

will 11:28

And that was cool. I don't know. The camping trip. Infamous camping trip of 2015 there.

joylily 11:35

So Yeah. Well, I don't know why. I don't know how it came about exactly that we were like, hey, we've only just met you. And by when I say we, it was me and Sarah who was not my roommate, but for all your bestie at the time. Yeah.

will 11:50

Yeah.

joylily 11:51

Pretty pretty much like a roommate at that point. Um, she just hung out all day every day with me because we worked together, and then she would come over to my apartment after work and we would just do a lot of life together because neither of us really had people in the area. And so um, so yeah, so we met you guys, and I think we were like, hey, what's better than just meeting people and also going camping and like struggling to survive in the wilderness with the people you just met. And I'm sure they've made a reality TV show about that, but we weren't on TV, we just did it. So um, yeah, that was really fun. I think I was not really feeling what do you call it? Like, I I wasn't really feeling like, oh yeah, this is going somewhere until probably earlier that week when we kept test texting back and forth, and I was like, mm-hmm, okay, there's something here. And then we sat around the campfire and talked about theology for three hours straight.

will 12:56

Just was it just you and I at that point? Yeah. Because they were all kind of hanging out together.

joylily 13:00

Yeah, they were all hanging out, but I mean it was definitely an intentional conversation with you. Yeah. And after talking together for that long, and uh, you know, just realizing how much our values aligned and all of that.

will 13:17

Long hair aside.

joylily 13:18

Long hair aside, I was like, the Lord can change hearts, so let's let's go with the really important things. Um, no, I I felt like okay, like the right things are here to actually be excited about pursuing something. Um or being pursued, I think. Yeah. Was was what we were kind of going for.

will 13:39

Yeah. Well, I mean, for feeling maybe uh quote unquote narrow-minded, I mean, three weeks isn't a long time to kind of let your world view or perspective of something kind of expand.

unknown 13:54

Yeah.

joylily 13:56

Well, and I think that there was a lot of comfort in being like, hey, you don't have to settle down and make this the like like I think in the past I'd always thought if I went out on a date or if I like was interested in somebody, like you have to know if that person is marriage material, and then you have to know if you're gonna marry them within X amount of time.

will 14:21

Sure.

joylily 14:21

Because that's so much of like the Christian teen, early like young adult culture.

will 14:27

It might have been at that time. Yeah.

joylily 14:29

Yeah, I don't know what it is currently. I haven't dated in you know, 10 years.

will 14:34

No, but you keep up with some of that stuff that you've done today.

joylily 14:37

Um, but no, I I really I realized the last time I went to the young adults event that I actually have really have not kept up with that. Um but yeah, I think there was just so much of a pressure at that time in my life to like have all of that figured out. And at that stage that I met you, I think I had really set a lot of that aside. I was trying to pursue the Lord more than anything else and kind of set any love interests as like a backburner thing for that time. And so that took a lot of pressure off of like, I have to know if this one is the right one, or everything has to be perfect, or has to meet this checklist that I have. And it was like, it's okay if the checklist isn't met. We can we can keep talking through this and figure it out.

will 15:29

No, that's good. I mean, I know you and I I I feel like I've even maybe mentioned this on the podcast before, but like uh just going through that season prior to meeting each other of just like I think I'm just gonna be single for the rest of my life and kind of in a lot of ways putting that dream of a companion, a maid in the ground. And like I'd because you know, I had I'd had an ex I'd had experiences there, and it was just like I just don't feel like this is something I'm supposed to be focusing on right now. And so once I fully felt like I'd let go of that, like within a very short amount of time I met you, and it was like, oh crap.

joylily 16:12

Yeah. Like, and I think you had kind of a similar Yeah, I can't remember when exactly it was, but it was it was sometime that summer. I think it had been less than three months where I was just like, I think my role here is to focus on the Lord and to just kind of set that aside. And um, and I was really content. I don't think that it was a like, oh no, if I don't do this, I'm never gonna meet somebody, and I don't think it was like a last resort or like a, you know, since I'm never gonna meet somebody, like this is what I may as well do this. Um, I felt very content with that decision, and I felt like I was doing exactly what God had me doing, and so it was a good season to be in, even if it was short. And yeah, I feel like, you know, even if it was short, it did prepare my heart for what was coming too.

will 17:00

Absolutely. Enough so that it came and it was just like kind of hit the gas, because I remember, you know, and more so than Melanie and I were hanging out all the time, you know, because we could. And just her, like on one of the times that we were going to the group or whatever, being like, I feel like this is going really quickly. And I was just like, I know. Like I have the same feeling about this, but it feels out of my hands.

joylily 17:30

Yeah.

will 17:30

Um, but it's like something's happening here. And um, I sure enough, that was probably like two or three days before uh the camping trip, and then you know, expressing like, oh, I really like you, and like um just kind of going from there and figuring that out.

joylily 17:50

Yeah. Still remember the text that you sent. After or Yeah, after we had this whole conversation, and for some reason we still texted afterwards. Um I think that was back when I had my little tiny blackberry too, actually. Okay. And I would get this little yeah, it's just it's funny looking back on that. Um, but I got a little text and then I would like wait for the little double check mark to see if it had delivered, and anyways. Oh and you said, I think I like you, and I was uh and I sent back like like like and you said yes.

will 18:25

Did I say I think like I wasn't convinced fully or something? I I don't know.

joylily 18:29

I don't think I was I can't remember, and I I have no screenshots, but it's okay. I yeah, I think both of us were a little bit unconvinced, or to Tradulately, maybe yes, triathletly is I think we I think we knew, but there's always a fear in it. There's always that like hey, like if something doesn't work out, you don't just want to lose this friendship that you've developed. And I think that really set the stage for the the relationship being a good thing. Was there was a friendship there. There was even if it was just a three weeks old friendship, the the groundwork was very um, it was very good. It was solid, and it wasn't just like a fascination with you.

will 19:14

Yeah, no, exactly. And I I want to dig more into like your origin story and how you ended up here, but just to say quickly, like at that time, except for Sarah and maybe a handful of people that you worked with, you didn't have a community here at the time either.

joylily 19:33

No.

will 19:34

And like that played into it heavily, like it wasn't like you'd met a handful of my family even before we ever talked. Yeah. So there were already like things happening a little bit like to me eventually, you know.

joylily 19:51

And um in that season of our lives, your family was definitely like excited to take new friends in and you know, without having friends, I was like, I'm down. Um the small group that we had been a part of, I had tried so many times to like have people over have people over and create little like hangouts and game nights and nobody would ever come.

will 20:17

No, totally.

joylily 20:18

And it was uh I was just like, am I just that awkward?

will 20:22

No, no.

joylily 20:23

And I think the reality was they just had really established lives here and I didn't. No, it was kind of and I was also a little bit awkward too.

will 20:30

No, sure. I mean my my most of my siblings are married now, but like my family definitely was like the conglomerate you know of of the church even that we were going to at the time where it was just like you know we'd had the we call it the churches in the church, you know, all these people who would stand around and hang out until so and so comes and shuts the lights off. Yeah. Like and that was just cool because I mean I think for you though too it kind of hit the for being someone without a lot of community it kind of hit the jackpot in that sense because it was like I don't know I feel like we instantly just we were connected and you were connected to this whole web of people.

joylily 21:11

Yes. Well and I'd just come off of um like that year I had graduated from college and like college is definitely the ultimate experience especially I would say like a Christian college there's a they make a very definite push towards community and creating an environment where people feel connected. And so Asbury especially yeah Asbury was incredible at that and so I had just come out of three years of some of the most connected living to be dropped into Indiana in the middle of cornfields working with people like well over three times my age for the most part as like the average and just having no idea exactly how I ended up here and how I was going to connect and and I honestly didn't really plan to set roots here. So I thought maybe I'll just stay here for a second and go back to where I'm connected. Um and so there was definitely like two sides to that where it was like I didn't really have connections before I came and then I was a little bit hesitant to make connections once I got here because I kind of had plans of leaving too.

will 22:25

Because it was an internship for the summer and then you were getting ready to skip back to Lexington.

joylily 22:31

Yeah so my plan had been to just work until the end of December and then start um my master's degree in January of that next year.

will 22:42

Okay.

joylily 22:42

So and I was planning to go back to Asbury Seminary. So that was kind of my game plan I was like you know a few months of not being super rooted can't be too bad. Nah and I was trying to do what the best I could but yeah if you don't connect with people you just don't connect with people it's not something you can force.

will 23:04

No it's true. Now that I'm thinking about it though too I think you were more connected over there than I even remember because it was Sarah there was Jason and Maggie there were um just even some mutual friends that you'd already had over spent some time with so I don't know that it's just cool.

joylily 23:24

It's cool looking back on that season and just realizing how many relationships and things were just kind of lining up for us to like yeah pursue even you know the idea of marriage and we weren't doing it alone no and I felt like once I met your family and kind of got plugged in at that church a little bit more I definitely made a lot more friends there. Yeah um and and yeah you're right I did have a good number of friends that I ended up making through OMS it was just tricky because most of them were not my age. So they weren't like hangout friends. Most of them were people where I'm like hey I can call on you for advice not friends that you can text at 11 p.m and be like hey you want to make a Taco Bell run. So you need friends for every occasion.

will 24:19

People for uh bad decisions with you. Yes no yeah totally well let's um that's awesome I mean it's just cool obviously like reminiscing on that though too and hitting 10 years is like wild but um but no before we I'd like to keep going into this because I actually have some pretty specific questions for like that time as well. Um but before we go too much that route you as a wildflower you as a person blooming versus wilting where do you feel that you're blooming thriving where you feel just like yourself versus what makes you feel kind of shriveled up.

joylily 25:05

In general or in this season of life?

will 25:07

Oh good question. I mean I'd love it all.

joylily 25:11

Okay. Yeah in this season of life I think one of the things that feels thriving and well into life is relationships. Um which is neat because I know that's one of the things that when you asked me what I wanted to see in my 31st year of life this year when we went out um I said that was one of the things I really wanted to pour more intentionality into. And I don't know that I've done a whole lot different but I think it's just been a function of time in a lot of ways um that I feel like I have some of the best relationships and best friends that I've had in my whole life right now and I feel like I've been able to pour into them and be poured into and that always makes me feel like I'm in a really good spot. And I thrive with that because I I'm a classic overthinker. I need people to verbally process with and I also need people who are open enough and honest enough with me to be like hey just chill like you can stop thinking about that now or like hey this is something you should think about because you don't you're not focused enough to realize what's going on. Yeah and just like having people that are willing to be honest um I think has been a really neat thing about this season of life. So yeah I would say that's a thriving thing. Something that feels wilting in this season is when I put too much on my plate.

will 26:48

Okay. Yeah.

joylily 26:49

Which that's probably actually just in general too. That's a good in general answer. And I think you've always caught that and that's one of the reasons that we did hit it off was you were very quick to pick up on um my tendency to commit to everything thereby committing poorly to a lot of things because I stretch myself a bit too thin.

will 27:14

It's just a little Ron Swanson line.

joylily 27:16

Yep it sure is don't that's no that's all you have to say um don't half ass two things whole ass one thing correct yeah you need me to censor that later I just need you to censor you um anyways yeah I think that that's that's something that I've always struggled with a little bit because I want to say yes to everybody. I want everybody to be happy and to be taken care of and I feel really fulfilled when I'm able to help other people too well strong Enneagram too vibes for sure yes very strong Enneagram too and I think I've gone from a very unhealthy to to getting healthier too and it helps a lot that I have got people in my corner now that do call me out when I need to be called out and just I don't know they they sharpen me and refine me and it's a good thing. So yeah I think I think that's my like current season and also in general and I think my in general blooming is probably just like when I have the right balance of enough irons in the fire not too few not too many because I do like variety and I don't like to be focused on one thing and actually focusing on one thing can kind of kill my spirit a little bit okay but it can also kill my spirit to have too many things. It's a it's a really tricky balance.

will 28:41

It's a fine balance. It's a fine balance no that that all fits for sure I mean I just remember um shortly after hearing about like the Enneagram it gave me so much clarity regarding myself and obviously I don't put too much faith into that kind of stuff I know some people do and some people don't um but like just learning so much more about you um knowing you were a a two and just it was like oh that's literally all of your strengths and all of your weaknesses kind of go back to this this place of like being helpful to a fault where I would I think some of our early struggles and conflicts were like why are you helping everyone when I need your help or maybe we need to just have a night of not saying yes to something else. Yeah you know so I didn't you look into it one time and like the compatibility of like twos and fours is like kind of toxic. Yeah that's called a toxic pairing it's unfortunate so far so okay.

joylily 29:57

Uh we've made it work but not without not without like the struggles that that would predict actually I think that the the reason it's considered toxic is you know quote unquote toxic I would say because it doesn't mean that you can't work together with somebody like that. But it's your weaknesses and their weaknesses put together can be catastrophic. And so I think you just have to really grow in self-awareness and in awareness of your person and be able to anticipate their needs well and you have like and you have to anticipate mine even um and it's it's a big game of making sure that you're looking ahead and communicating really well whenever something starts feeling off. Because if you wait until it gets to where you're both feeling off it's gonna be conflict like for sure.

will 30:57

Yeah.

joylily 30:58

Um so I think that we've had to learn how to work through a lot of those things and it's been good. Yeah it's grown us. Like if anything I'd say the Enneagram is just helped give words too yes I don't like thinking of the Enneagram as like a predictor of your personality. I think it's a description of your personality and so you know it's not going to prescribe what you should do or you cannot operate out of these confines. I think it more says hey this is the motivation behind what you do and when you're aware of your motivation you can more um you can more effectively choose what to do and who you want to be because you can tailor your motivation and you can ask God to influence your motivation and in doing so you can keep growing and you don't have to be the weak side of your personality type.

will 31:56

Oh right okay you know does that make sense?

joylily 31:58

Makes perfect sense okay that's cool actually well okay well what do you feel like um you've gotten healthier in the the desire to help um what is uh what is a more healthy Enneagram to look like I think well I I need to give a shout out to somebody yeah yeah you know who it is uh not off the top of my head really okay I thought you were about to tell me um no Andy my boss I feel like she's been such a good pushback that's not you because I feel like you've been the most aware of like my weakness in saying yes to everything and I feel like Andy has been one of the most aware outside of our home and has just been a really good pushback for me because at work like you know when you work for a church you're more likely to just want to serve and serve and serve and serve um especially if you're two and I think one of the hard things about it is saying there has to be a limit to how much you can serve or how much you can do for people, how many times you can say yes. And she's been a really good um kind of ceiling for me which typically ceiling is a like a negative connotation but I think sometimes twos need a ceiling to say this is where you where you max out and you need to you know delegate. And so I feel like that's been a really good thing for the last um well over a year now of being there. I feel like I've grown in that by having a little bit of like um workplace pushback on that and not just coming from you.

will 33:47

Right.

joylily 33:49

But yeah I think other things that are like healthier to just is better at setting boundaries and I think setting boundaries like so much of what we've been learning even the last couple of years has been it's for you it's not against other people.

will 34:07

Right.

joylily 34:07

And so learning like what do I need to communicate as far as my needs go? What do I need to communicate um when it comes to am I comfortable with this or am I just saying yes because I feel like I'm in a situation where I'm pressured to say yes? Am I serving or showing up out of obligation? Um and that overflows in other areas of life obviously like family like am I just saying yes because it would be more uncomfortable to have a conversation where we face this head on and we say hey I don't feel comfortable in this room or I don't feel comfortable being in this situation with these people.

will 34:47

Or even on a more chill note Thursday night we're going on a date and we can't let anything interrupt that. That's a priority and you know maybe something happens maybe someone needs something it's just you almost have to like I like how you said that though too because it's not a you never the intention is never to use it as a weapon if you're gonna No. You know but you're trying to you have to take care of you.

joylily 35:13

I think that really is like it's not a barbed wire fence it's more like a nice little white picket fence that says please do not let your dogs in my yard and I won't let my dogs out of my yard.

will 35:24

Yeah sure sure no and I think it ultimately ends up being the best thing for yourself and for the people around you. Yes you know to also figure out what that looks like and well because when you create healthy limits for yourself you're able to actually show up for people more healthily you're able to actually show up like fully present and not I don't know not with like fear in your back pocket or yeah sure.

joylily 35:54

Yeah there's just there's just so many things that you can say yes to and still not really be saying yes to you know you can be physically present and be mentally so far from a place. Oh man yeah and so I think that that's a big part of it is when you say yes to too many things your your body is almost even in that state of like I've got the next thing coming and I've got to be at you know so I I've done that before with like even photo shoots where it's like I can't even relax that and like get into my flow because I'm like I you know if I don't finish the session on time I'm gonna be late for the next one. And so yeah I think you overcommitting can help can keep you from being the person that you actually are for the people that need you right there in that moment.

will 36:45

Totally that's really good though. I don't know like I think being a two is just like such a cool way to be at all you know I think did did you take the test?

joylily 37:02

I'm trying to remember you did take it okay all right because I know obviously you know I didn't but like but you did yeah I didn't need to exactly I I had you pegged no Ethan uh my brother another a fellow in your grand too just pulled up a video and was like I need you to listen to this whatever like whoa so you but you had the experience of actually sitting down doing the test and that's really cool actually um beyond that any any blooming wilting worth noting yeah I feel like uh one of the things that I mean not my whole life no I take that back I always wanted to be a mom since I was like little little I remember that but I haven't been a mom for my whole life and so that's what I'm referring to. Um I feel like that has been a season of simultaneously blooming and wilting absolutely there's uh it's it is a lot of responsibility I did not correctly anticipate how much responsibility it was and that being said I still want many more so it's yeah double-edged sword it's a double-edged sword um but I feel I feel like most in the center of where I'm supposed to be when I'm with you guys and like when we're just having a good time and there's not like a a pressure to be somewhere or to be doing something but we can just exist alongside each other and I can just watch the kids do the things that they do creatively or enjoy the really odd bizarre things they say and just kind of like take it in and um and be like oh I I made that little person with you of course right but um but yeah like I I'm just like where where did that little creature come from and they just bring a lot of joy to my life and so I feel like that's been a fun a fun part of the last six years really is just like getting to um loom within that space too. Yeah and be like hey this is this is where I feel like a true fulfillment in God's calling on my life and um and always striving to get better because I don't think I'm fantastic at it. I feel like I'm definitely always learning the ropes and most days I go to bed tired and I'm like wow I hope I didn't let my kids down but I also feel very Much like that's exactly what I was supposed to be doing. That's the learning for this season of my life. It's my school.

will 40:08

I think it fits a deal really well with to be the best helper as a mom. You gotta have something in the reserves. You know, you've gotta be taking care of UX amount. Like I mean I feel like that's just you see it a lot, it's really burnt out. Moms. Oh, yeah. Like in whether you're in any of them too or not. If you're a mom, you're a helper. Yeah. Along with, you know, eighteen plus other titles you're carrying around all at the same time.

joylily 40:48

Yeah. I think there's uh there's a lot of burnout in motherhood because well, here's a whole soapbox I could go on.

will 40:59

Sure.

joylily 41:00

You you know the soapbox. Um, but just the whole like there's so little support in motherhood compared to what I think there used to be or what we as humans were designed for. I think that there was a beautiful design at a certain point where it was like community was or sorry, people existed in more community with each other. And part of like American culture, and and I can say this from even having experience in other cultures too, I've noticed it's very um specific to the culture that we are currently living in, which is that people like their own lives, they like their privacy, they like to, I don't know, they almost like to be on their own, but then they also want the benefits of being supported and having the village, having that village, yeah. Yeah, and like in Latin American countries, um, specifically like the culture that I'm from, or like half half the culture I'm from, um, other people just jump in and support each other more, and there's a lot less like, oh my goodness, what are you doing to my kid? And you know, um, there's just there's a communal expectation that people will jump in and help, and there's like a community like expectation that the mom will allow help to be given to.

will 42:24

Yeah.

joylily 42:24

Um, and so it kind of just it goes both ways, and there's a lot of trust, and you know, that also has its downsides.

will 42:31

I'm not saying it's perfect, like an obvious downside is everybody's always in everybody else's business, exactly.

joylily 42:37

And so, like you you kind of you give some, you take, you take some, you do some.

will 42:43

What is that? Something like that.

joylily 42:45

Um, but yeah, you just each comes with its pros and cons. And I think that one of the cons of um the highly individualistic American culture is moms often feel really alone and they don't know how to reach out for help because there isn't really like a community construct for reaching out for help. Um, and I'm really thankful to be a part of like a very good community now. Like our church has shown up in such a big way for us as parents, um, especially this year with adding another baby. I was like, I don't know, big churches get a lot of crap for being big, but um I just feel like our church is huge, and somehow people still showed up in a very personal way, and it was incredible, and it made this postpartum like the best postpartum we've had. Um, and so I think that it's totally possible to find it. I think you have to be intentional about pouring into relationships around you for those relationships to also be there when you need them. I don't think it can just be one-sided, but um but it's there.

will 43:58

No, we talked about that. And it makes a big difference. I think that like to be a part of a village, you have to show up when it's not convenient, you know. Which also still d you know, you still have to follow your own boundaries and stuff like that, and you know, you know there's levels to that, of course. But you know, you have to you have to give to take and show up and when it's awkward and inconvenient, uncomfortable. And even I think getting connected in a church that is large is the key to that in a lot of ways for you is just connecting with individuals on an individual level, just like it always will be. I mean it's not like you're friends with the church, it's you know, it's friends with these very, very specific people that are connected, and we've yeah, we've been so blessed by that. Like, I mean, how many people brought food after Sparrow was born?

joylily 44:54

I think it was like 25 people.

will 44:56

Yeah, it was like crazy.

joylily 44:57

That's crazy.

will 44:58

Yeah. And some of those people are not from our church, but yeah.

joylily 45:01

Um but 20 still 20 of them were from our church.

will 45:06

That's so crazy.

joylily 45:07

Which is just wild.

will 45:09

Um we are still eating that norm.

joylily 45:13

I do think we've actually finished off all of that.

will 45:15

Well, a couple months ago.

joylily 45:17

Um, but yeah, I I always say like the church is only as big as it only feels as big as you let it feel. Sure. Because I think even within a small church, you can feel like the church isn't really there for you or isn't really supporting you. Um because if you don't get connected in a small church, you still won't be connected. And if you don't get connected in a big church, you also won't be connected. So it doesn't have as much. Yeah, you're never gonna meet anybody because you know the most you're gonna meet them is basically waving them on in the parking lot or whatever.

will 45:52

But it's already a super like awkward scenario for meeting and connecting with people, anyways.

joylily 45:57

Yes.

will 45:57

Then if you rush out, it's so cool.

joylily 46:00

Hey, you leave in you leave in five minutes early too? Yeah, man. Cool. I think the sermon was pretty good. Don't know about the last five minutes.

will 46:08

I just mean church is awkward, but oh, okay. Yeah. Um, but no, yeah, that's one of my biggest pet peeps, though. No, it's okay. Um Yeah, that that fits. I mean, the blooming, the raising kids, being in them in the midst of that, knowing that you're like doing the thing that you were made to do, and of course it makes me think of the whole like uh C. S. Lewis quote, just like kids aren't an inconvenience from the work, kids are the work. And just that's like I don't know. Like you you live that fully all the time. I'm a little more skeptical, I feel like, sometimes, and just like, how did this happen? How are we surrounded by these little adorable people, granted? But yeah.

joylily 46:54

Well, you're in a trickier space of that in this season too, because you're the one staying at home.

will 47:00

Yeah.

joylily 47:00

And I think being the stay-at-home parent is actually a little bit harder to like really wrap your head around what you're doing because it feels more nebulous and it does. Yeah, it's just weird.

will 47:15

Where am I winning? Where am I losing?

joylily 47:17

Yeah.

will 47:17

Where am I gonna be footing therapy bills later on? Yes.

joylily 47:23

The whole day runs together, uh-huh. But then the whole year runs together, and you're like, where did that whole last year go?

will 47:29

Uh totally.

joylily 47:30

It's it's rough.

will 47:32

Yeah. It's that realization when all of your older relatives come and are like, you've gotten so big. It's truly just a comment on their own age and mortality.

joylily 47:41

Yeah.

will 47:42

And it's like that's in your face all the time. Like, oh my gosh, you're six now. Like that's six years. I don't know where they went or whatever. But I know where they went. They were spent really well. And they were they were scary. And you know, I don't know.

joylily 48:00

First kid's always the scariest. Good thing Lincoln's our second.

will 48:04

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I know. Speaking of kids, um, I feel like we already kind of said this, but I feel like my world was a little bit small in the sense that like my mom was from Michigan and my dad is from Illinois, and they both moved to Indianapolis at some point. And that's where I was born, and that's primarily where I've lived. Um But you on the other hand, I feel like have been since you were a kid, have been a little bit all over the place.

joylily 48:36

That is true, both geographically and mentally.

will 48:41

Geographically speaking. Yes. Uh you were born in Yes.

joylily 48:46

I was born just outside Chicago.

unknown 48:48

Uh-huh.

joylily 48:49

Um, I don't really know the lineup of everywhere we lived, but I know we lived there for a little while. Lived in Minnesota for a minute, lived in North Dakota for a minute. Um, I think there were a couple other places somewhere in there. And then when I was four, we moved to North Carolina to um a Wycliffe mission base, um, Wycliffe Bible Translators. Um, it's one of the biggest uh mission organizations in the world. So if you've never heard of it, check it out. Um, but that's yeah, my parents started the process of doing missions work and they had lots of training to go to and fundraising and all of that. And then when we moved to um the Jar Center, that was kind of the start of their journey in um career missionary work and the start of my existence. Um kind of always being on the ready to move somewhere. So um we ended up staying in the North Carolina area pretty much my whole growing up years. Um, I know there were a few different points where they we thought we were gonna get to be overseas somewhere. Um, but with my dad doing more computer-y work and it being kind of the 90s and early 2000s, it was really best for us to stay there because the infrastructure was a little bit stronger with like the internet and everything. So we ended up staying stateside and um I grew up saying goodbye to friends on like a yearly basis because most of my friends did move overseas. And so there were very few friends that I had that I got to do lifelong side for more than a year at a time. Um, and that was an interesting way to form relationships, I think, at a young age.

will 50:37

Oh, yeah.

joylily 50:37

Um, but one of the really neat things was every time they came back, um, and this was like pre-Facbo, pre-social media, any of that. Um the best thing we had really was email, and we still didn't use it extensively. So it's kind of funny, but when friends would come back, if we connected, we connected, if we didn't, we didn't. Um but there were a lot of friends that I connected with again when they would come stateside, and it was really interesting to see how much friendships could survive being long distance and not just long distance, but like old school long distance, where like you literally just didn't hear from people except for like maybe their parents' fundraising letters or things like that.

will 51:22

Oh like a newsletter, yeah, like their newsletter.

joylily 51:25

Um, and then they'd come back, and it's like most of them I felt like hey, we we still click, like let's keep hanging out. So it was just really interesting. Um, but yeah, I remember one of the things that you and I bonded over initially too, was that we became like deep friends very quickly. And I think that was one of the things that I learned from growing up in that environment was basically, yeah, you you put it all online because if you're going to be friends, you have to basically you get to know each other really well, really quickly, so that you get to enjoy more of that friendship and you don't just spend that whole year that they're here um just like small talking and kind of laying the like I don't know, I would say the more classically American um friendship pattern is like you just kind of get to know people like really gently for like that first year, and then if you click, you kind of get to know them a little bit more, and it's sure you know, friendships progress more slowly, and I just didn't know that. And so when I met you, I was still very much in my missionary kid framework of like, well, we clicked, so we better get to know each other really quickly because I might not know you next year.

will 52:45

Well, even then, I think you were still planning to move. You can do that.

joylily 52:48

Yeah, well, exactly. I was still planning to move, and even with college, it's like it was it mirrored a lot of that experience because people graduate and then they leave. And so yeah, so I guess moving to Indiana was one of the first times that I felt like I really got to put down some roots with friendships where I like truly intended to stay somewhere, even though I don't know if I did right at the beginning. But once once I knew you were the one, I intended to stick around.

will 53:22

It took some challenges of faith and whatnot, etc., to come to that conclusion. But I think you did. Yeah, because I remember like you already brought it up, I think, but myself encouraging you, like, I think you need to put some roots down. Yeah. Which was very unlike what you're what you would typically naturally gravitate towards in life. Oh yeah.

joylily 53:47

My default was to like which is funny because I I did grow up in pretty much one house from four to maybe five. I don't know. But you know, young elementary at least.

will 54:03

Yeah.

joylily 54:04

Until I graduated when I was 17. And I was in that same house that whole time pretty much. Um, so it's not like I ended up really moving, but I was always like mentally ready to move. And I think that's kind of what that culture around us necessitated was like a willingness to move. I'm so sorry. I just kicked that and made it spike. Okay. Um, anyways, I yeah, I think putting down roots really made me nervous because I I just wasn't comfortable with that, which sounds weird, but it it was more familiar to me to just be ready to kind of say goodbye.

will 54:54

Um well, coming off of being a missionary kid, primarily m missionary kid friends, then going into college for three years, and basically because you did it in three years, you didn't graduate with your with the class that you came in with.

joylily 55:12

Yeah.

will 55:12

And I think they were probably had to have been slightly traumatic, leaving everybody that you just spent all this time with even early. Um just almost kind of driving home a little bit more of that idea of like even if you put roots down or plan to be somewhere longer, you're gonna end up getting s it's all gonna be stripped away or something.

joylily 55:38

Yeah, it was it was definitely weird. Um and in retrospect, I'm like, what would I have done if I hadn't grown up that way? Would I have still tried to like finish with my class? Would I have tried to come back for their graduation? You know, because some I know some students did finish the year that I finished and came back and walked with their class and stuff.

will 56:04

Sure.

joylily 56:05

Um, but yeah, I think I was just in a season of my life where I was really comfortable with not having a place. Um and so, yeah, so moving here, I was comfortable with the idea of moving shortly after moving here. Um, and in some ways that has really played out well for us because we've moved a lot since we got married.

will 56:30

We have yeah, I think with the same community, it's just been like movements from different spots, which is rarely gonna have the same effect as a complete and total uprooting.

joylily 56:42

Yeah, yeah. No, I don't mean I don't mean we've moved like like communities. I just mean like I think in some ways it has been helpful that I've been comfortable with with packing up and moving us out of places because we've had some pretty quick moves. And we have, yeah. Um, and that's just been like I don't know, I think it was a good life skill that I didn't really even know I needed until this stage in my life, and I'm like, oh, that's cool. Panama.

will 57:11

I think yeah, I think some of your past experiences there too kind of set us up for more non-traditional living places there too.

joylily 57:21

Yes.

will 57:22

Because you went from the tiny spot in the back of OMS there, One Mission Society, to us getting married and living in a storefront.

joylily 57:31

Yes.

will 57:33

Us moving into my parents' camper in the driveway in the middle of the pandemic because of uh what was the roof leaking, yeah, totally. Yeah. And already feeling that in our hearts, like, oh, it might be time to go soon, and then that all happened. The tornado touched the roof and the rain came through and roof was still intact, but flooded it basically. Into camper, eventually transitioning into my parents' basement. Then them leaving and us basically having run of the house to then having a housemate to then buying our own 1911 house out here in Edinburgh and fixing it up. I I just feel like there has been a lot of non-traditional diet.

joylily 58:22

Well, yeah, one of those details was we didn't just move to the basement, we moved to the storage room in the basement.

will 58:29

Yeah, totally.

joylily 58:30

So we went from key details. Like Yeah, I think we went from like 200 square feet in the camper to like 80 square feet in the little storage room. And there were only three of us at that point, but still uh that it was it was a small space for three people.

will 58:50

I'm so proud of us.

joylily 58:51

I mean and I I loved it.

will 58:53

Fun fact, I recorded basically my entire last album in that room while we were living in it. Somehow. Pull my gear out, record for hours long, and then put it all away. We got really good at doing that kind of stuff.

joylily 59:09

We did. It was it was such a weird time, but yeah. It was, it worked, it worked really well because pretty much all of our stuff was in storage, like it was a very nomadic living. I think I had like five shirts and probably like three or four pairs of pants, and it was like we just rotated.

will 59:31

Yes, like maybe better than Christmas in so many ways. Because yeah, you just had the same outfits in rotation, yeah.

joylily 59:38

Same outfits and yeah. I do remember going to the storage unit. It it was always like really fun to go back to the storage unit and be like, oh, I forgot I even had that clothes.

will 59:47

That's it.

joylily 59:47

And I remember going back and like finding some of our winter stuff because we had packed everything winter. We didn't think we were gonna be in the camper for that long. And so having to like dig through things and try and find enough warm clothes for us to do like. winter with um it was kind of fun because it was like yeah like Christmas I was like forgot I even had that yeah for anyone listening though camper living is kind of next level it's really our tiny house living even it's you basically just have the essentials and I think there's a lot of a lot of pros to that actually yeah it really um it cuts down the mental load yeah to very very little to what matters yeah much more quickly um it's the same reason I often just wear my staff shirt and jeans because I'm like hey I can wear this to work and I didn't have to think about my outfit. Yeah but sometimes it's really nice to not have to think about all the different options that you have in your closet.

will 1:00:54

It's like hey you've got five tops five bottoms and put the two that match together yeah totally I know having so many options has got to be like the biggest first world problem. It it really is but it's still a problem but um yeah so no your growing up experience I mean you were you moved around a lot even since getting married we've had some really unique experiences even but like all that to say I think you have put your roots down and it's really I think paid off it has yeah because that was hard that was a hard conversation I remember even having it with you just like hey this is kind of what I'm seeing I want to just encourage you to like actually like put roots down. Like I think some of those roots are obviously still with the the whimsical hope of us ending up together.

joylily 1:01:48

Yeah I think at that stage we were talking seriously enough that I think you were kind of scared that I might be a little bit too nomadic and might not ever live like in the in the present moment or the present space because I was always kind of mentally preparing for the next thing.

will 1:02:10

Yeah yeah totally yeah no that's a good way of saying it too next well just like kind of going back to like that time meeting each other um I think it was a year or two ago now that I heard it and it was like some Jordan Peterson thing that I was listening to and he just talked about like the kind of the th the thought behind falling in love with someone is like you get kind of this like small small by comparison maybe to the rest of your time together window of time to just like really see all of the potential in a person. And it's almost kind of beautiful because in a lot of ways it's only opened for so long and only so many people are ever gonna really get to have that perspective of another that person. But I think that the rest of that thought was just like you have this window of time to like fall in love with this person to truly see everything in their potential and the dream of who they could be and like you get to help make that happen. Or you get to be like if nothing else like a direct witness to everything that they've changed and grown through and everything. Give me thoughts on any of that I just feel like there's something there.

joylily 1:04:12

Yeah I think one of the things that's special and unique about marriage is you get so many series of those windows consecutively. And when you're just friends with somebody oftentimes that window is like a limited time and you know you go separate ways or whatever and that person is a different person the next time you see them and you don't really know what the gap of time held you know um one of the things that one of the concrete ways that I always think of that is with our experience with Oliver where it was like hey we had a whole community around us at that point in time and it is so weird now that almost none of the people that were in our lives at that season are currently a part of our like day to day lives now. And it's kind of interesting because so many people have been like hey congratulations on the third baby and when I've told them like this is our fourth they're like wait you have a fourth and it I you know I know the window of time that that you know who you are I know who I am you know and I forget that they weren't there for that window of time. Um and so I think one of yeah I think marriage is unique in that sense of like you have all the window of time since meeting that person. And you get to see friends come in and out of that and people who are just friends unless they're lifelong friends um they get to know you for a season or they don't meet you until after a certain like pivotal season of your life and some things that you share with them have to be shared in hindsight basically.

will 1:06:12

Yeah sure no that's interesting so you you're just kind of answering like taking that that time of like getting to witness this person's development is like when you really agree to be that person's person, you know but to be the the witness of their life and all of the evolving that comes with that like you get to see it all even when other people are kind of coming into is that kind of how you're yeah that I think that's the spin you're putting on make okay sure sure is yeah you get to see all of it and some ways the bad and the iteration every you know the you're signing up for no matter how much that person changes.

joylily 1:07:00

Yeah you're saying I'm going with those changes. You know totally at the heart of it like I love you the person not the scenario that you're in or not even the growth that you are in right now. Sure.

will 1:07:15

But I see who you could become yes no I always felt like a bit of a like even hearing that there's a little bit of a a threatening element to me because what if you're not helping as you should or are intended to that person to reach their quote unquote full potential or whatever. You know and so there is just this like looming like you know not only do you get to be a witness but you get to be a participant in this person becoming fully realized. You know it's just I think even knowing you the last 10 years it's just been so cool because it feels like more and more all the time it's like it doesn't look how I thought it would look but it's and you know I think everyone could probably say that but it feels like oh you're so much more the person that I saw then in that window of time. That's really exciting. Like it's and it's a much more holistic well-rounded person than I think even you know quote unquote falling in love with someone would give you the opportunity to truly see. You know, in a lot of ways it it does remove a lot of even some of the human element of a person you know um or you just are so head over heels for even the human element that's gonna maybe end up being like a total like something that could be a wedge later on or something like that. You know um that makes sense what I'm trying to say there. Yeah.

joylily 1:08:51

I think I like the concept of like a catalyst. I don't know if you remember that from chemistry biology. I can't remember which it was but I think it's chemistry. Yeah um of like this idea where there's just kind of this like resting potential and then it's like when you add this other ingredient like that resting potential actually becomes a whole separate thing. Like it's yeah it's no longer chemically the same thing that it started as. Oh sure I've become I would have become a variation of the chemicals that I was to begin with. You know?

will 1:09:34

Yes.

joylily 1:09:34

But I think that your influence in my life has been more catalyst where it's like if like once I've added you to this mix I've actually become a very different person than what I started as. And and I think that's one of the beautiful things about marriages it's like you don't just you're not just this third party observer of those windows of a person's life. Yeah. You're actually a very real participant in the change that happens in those windows.

will 1:10:04

For better or worse.

joylily 1:10:05

Yeah for better or for worse. And it's um it I mean it's really neat to let's do that honey um yeah it's really neat to see the ways that I think you've poured into me as a person and changed even that like the default you know because like kind of how we said of like I was really nomadic minded when I met you to where now like my my default is still kind of nomadic but I think that's probably just my personality too um but I'm much more willing to like set up like this vibey space with you. I'm not like hey what can we do to make sure that this can be packed up in three hours flat I'm like no let's let's set the stuff up let's nail the picture frames onto the wall you know let's let's get pictures even printed and decorate the walls like intentionally. Yes. And so I think that yeah I think that you've been a very catalyst part of change too.

will 1:11:08

No that's awesome. It's really beautiful so thank you for sharing that too. Yeah because I I think it's you've talked me off so many ledges though too that it's just like to imagine even when it's challenging even when it's been painful that like closeness because I mean I think the difference though too I remember hearing that so many years ago but like some people actually treat their friends better than they do their spouse or the person they're in relation like that type of relationship with and it's just like again that speaks to like keeping the friendship element alive but I think it also speaks to this just this like you know I have seen you at your worst you've seen me at my worst whatever that looks like you know we've seen each other through grief, child loss, like literally that entire experience together how which is one where statistically speaking breaks apart X amount of marriages, relationships, whatever um but just like even when it's challenging you being this catalyst in my life it's like I love how you just said that too because it's like well what what is what are your other options? Not grow, you know?

unknown 1:12:25

Yeah.

will 1:12:26

Which granted I'm sure life and God would find its own ways of growing you still regardless of marriage or not. But I think there is such a direct like in our experience I'll speak personally like there has been such a direct like to imagine who I would be without you in the trajectory that I would have been on this is absolutely this entire thing has been such a catalyst to help me grow into who I'm supposed to be.

joylily 1:12:53

So it's just like I don't know I just think that's really I loved hearing that as threatened as I felt by that like are you gonna help the search reach their potential it was just like oh man now I gotta go check myself you know which I think we should do anyways but yeah it's like I think I don't know it's just it's cool to not only be a witness but to also be a an active participant in your growth like like put down roots and watching you do that so well even if reluctantly you know at first yeah like there's a lot it's paid off you know it has yeah enough so that even though my whimsical side is always looking at jobs at Asbury or jobs in Charlotte and stuff um at the end of the day I'm like you know I would really hate to leave here though because our people are here and you can't replace people you can you can't no you can replace jobs you can replace houses anything in this physical world you can replace except for people and um I've just come to value community so so much.

will 1:14:04

That's awesome good to have like a solid one. Yeah I've found that and worked for that because we we worked for it and we prayed for my goodness that so much.

joylily 1:14:14

We've prayed for community a lot.

will 1:14:17

This podcast this entire project is such a testament of the amazing people that God has put in my life yes but like yours as well. Yeah there's so much crossover and there's so much just like we've benefited so much from these people and um man no that's awesome putting down those roots though um I feel like I'm like super janky and awkward at transitions tonight.

joylily 1:14:51

It's the beauty of being with somebody that you feel comfy with right yeah exactly something like that.

will 1:14:58

I think it is we just go well I wrote down this list of topics and this is gonna be very like well because we don't usually have conversations for microphone. No or like topic points per se.

joylily 1:15:12

Well I have topic points I've always got a list that I'm writing down trying to rope you into being part of my list making. I just bleed that is so true.

will 1:15:23

And therein lies the the toxic two and four that's hilarious um but no I want to talk about I mean I feel like we've talked a lot about like your origin story obviously you're you're blooming you're wilting which is I really like how you answered that one too because you answered it seasonally but also you as a at your core I think the seasonal bit is an is an interesting way of answering that too because you know we are in a very specific epoch of time.

joylily 1:15:53

Yeah and well it's it's definitely a different setup than I ever envisioned I think I grew up with a very traditional um gender role framework sure where I was like the mom will stay home with the kids the dad will go work so to be the one working outside of the home now and you being the one here has been a very big shift for me mentally kind of heart to I would say and I think that it's come with a lot of challenges it's also come with a lot of gifts it's been a really really fulfilling season um but yeah that's it's been interesting and so I don't think that was something that either one of us really thought would be our setup when we got married and we've had to be flexible and had to shift and as we always say at work um move and cover for each other and I think that one of the ways we've done that has just been like hey I can work this job that actually aligns with our family's values and aligns really well with raising a family because they care about us as people and they don't just care about me showing up on a time card. And getting to do that getting to pour into creative things that I love doing and serving people through that it's really good to be in a spot that actually feels aligned with things that we truly care about.

will 1:17:29

Like what is your what is your role at work?

joylily 1:17:34

Oh yeah at work um so doing project management um basically being a liaison between all of our departments at church and a design team and so I take a lot of the different visions that they have for different series that we do or invitations or print of materials and make sure that we pass it along to designers that can do the project make sure that we organize it well get it to the printers and then make sure that the teams that need it at church have it by the deadlines that they need it by. And then every once in a while I get to design stuff and that's something I love getting to do.

will 1:18:18

Oh yeah.

joylily 1:18:19

And then on the weekends I do photos for um our events so like services like services yeah services special events um just about anything that they need photos for to promote things or to just even share with people like hey this is what we did. It's really cool. And then I help with a kid's social media account currently um and then I help onboard and train our impact team photographers which are our volunteers and try to make sure that they have all the resources they need to be able to serve on weekends when we need to stretch beyond our staff photography team because like Christmas coming up we're gonna have services at nine campuses I think it is and we're definitely gonna need to tap into all the people who are willing to help.

will 1:19:12

Yeah sure sure it's a good to do that then yeah it's cool it's it's really cool. No I just wanted you to be specific because I I don't know that everybody who listens to this is going to know what your role is and to be perfect at least I've had a handful of people ask me what your role is over the last year and I've been like um rain check on that you know um she does picture things though and things of that nature.

joylily 1:19:41

I I feel like I have a really good actually this goes back to the wilting and blooming thing. I feel like this job has been the best fitting job I've ever had partially because it is so multifaceted.

will 1:19:53

Yeah it's that's another jack of all trades.

joylily 1:19:57

In some ways it can be a little bit frustrating and Times because I'm like, oh, I don't know what to focus on. Um, but thankfully I have a good team that kind of helps me with that. Um, but yeah, but I think for the more often than not, the variety is actually one of the things that makes me love what I get to do. Yeah. And I feel like I get to spend a lot of time with people, but not just people in general, but people who are very much like ready to pour into me and who are also willing to let me speak into their lives. And so there's just a really good mutual respect and mutual friendship with so many people there, and I love it. It's a very healthy.

will 1:20:43

I mean, I've taken on stay-at-home dad role to kind of fit that because obviously we need someone with the kids, and we value it being one of us with them. And so naturally the void that I've kind of taken up is being here with them while you're at work for however long that season may be, but it's just like that's back to the original point. That's not necessarily the typical gender role thing, and I mean I feel like it's something we're comfortable with, I think.

joylily 1:21:21

Yeah, we've had to we've definitely had to workshop this. I feel like it's taken us about the first year to really get to a place where we kind of found rhythm and um and kind of learned to loosen certain expectations that we might have had previously.

will 1:21:41

Yeah, totally. And not even societal ones or anything like that, or even the way that we were raised, but just like for myself I know taking on being a very uh being a very active parent has been a pretty major shift. Not that I wasn't before, it's just like you know, it's different when you're taking on and foreseeing the names and yeah, you know, I think I remember my grandpa kind of. He he'd never changed any of his kids' diapers, and I'm like, oh, basically like I'm doing like 80% of the diapers probably now, and w you know, whatever you're catching on the weekends or in the evenings, but the rest of that's all on my shoulders.

joylily 1:22:27

So goodness, well how many diapers are you changing in a day?

will 1:22:32

23.

joylily 1:22:34

Yeah. Also, I just want to say that this this baby is making me sound rude because he was burping. It wasn't me burping, it was the baby.

will 1:22:45

Okay. Sure. I would feel remiss if we didn't talk about Oliver though. Um, no, I I was also thinking about this while preparing for this, but the only other mom, Taylor, that I've had on also experienced child loss. And so I feel like there's just kind of an interesting thread there, but like, you know.

joylily 1:23:16

Well, I think it was one of the things that brought us closer together as friends, too.

will 1:23:21

It is, yeah. You know? Definitely.

joylily 1:23:23

There's nothing like walking through literally your darkest season of life with another person to connect you to that person.

will 1:23:33

Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

joylily 1:23:35

Or repel you, kind of like you said earlier. Like it can it can be the make or break.

will 1:23:40

It can, yeah. Depending on how someone's handling it. No, it's true. But for us, I mean, you know, we tried to be as open as possible going through that situation, and even to this day, I think like talking about him is really important. Um, as you remember, different people kind of shared with us after that experience or during even like that they'd lost maybe a sibling and they didn't hear about it until years and years. They were adults. Yeah. And their parents shared it with them, and I just can't imagine carrying that around as a parent. No, you know. I can't imagine. And I'm not just talking like a a miscarriage or something, and I'm not trying to downplay that, but like children people had and knew that they then lost and just never talked about.

joylily 1:24:32

Like, well, because we we've also experienced the miscarriage route. And I always wondered what that would look like for us, and and I think I was trying to hold it loosely and be like, well, you know, if that ever happens, maybe I'll grieve it the same way that I did Oliver, because Oliver was our first. Um but I I did, I grieved it completely differently, and it was a very, very different experience than than losing Oliver. And so that's part of what makes me not feel bad. I don't know. It's child loss is a weird thing, but I don't really count that baby in the count of babies that we've had, which is no, sure. Different. I some people do and some people don't. I don't think there's a right way or wrong way about it. But it was a little baby who we had only just found out about, and we never got to know the personality, and there's a really big difference to me between that and like Oliver, whose personality we totally got to see. We got to like, you know, just sense him as a being. Oh, absolutely. And it was just a very different type of loss. Where was I going to stop?

will 1:25:54

I mean, I think just even it just those different experiences that people kind of hold and bear and the whole suffering silence type of thing versus like actually getting to know this person or yeah, getting to be open about those experiences as different as they may be.

joylily 1:26:12

Yeah. Um well I one of the things that you said when you introduce this question was just um about how they me like heard of their sibling after the fact. And I think one of the really beautiful things that I'm thankful for that we've done that like that we've done, I guess, is we've always talked about Oliver, like he was a part of our everyday life in so many ways. And you know, this is what you'd be doing. This is, you know, this was his outfit. And with with these subsequent kids, we've put them in his old outfits and stuff, and we have that one little outfit with the rock band on it that I have put every one of our kids in and taken a picture of because it was the only outfit that I have really of him in. And so, yeah, we've just continued to treat his existence as if it exists in a way alongside us, and I think one of the beautiful things that I've gotten to see is Lincoln develop a relationship with the idea of Oliver, even if it's not him here. It's just been really neat to see the ways that he also honors Oliver's existence and kind of um alludes to his presence in his mind, I think. Yeah, um, and it's just really beautiful to see that. And I I can't imagine being an adult and finding out that I had a sibling.

will 1:27:43

You'd change everything a little bit.

joylily 1:27:45

Yeah, it would feel it would feel kind of like a lie, I think. And I don't know, maybe those people feel differently, but I feel like that's how I would handle that. Um, and so that was one of the reasons that we were like, hey, when other kids come along, we're gonna make sure that they know about their sibling. And I've been so thankful that we did because that's just been a really sweet little element, and and it has helped keep the memory of him alive.

will 1:28:12

Well, no, because you know, we had lost Jack, my brother, and then six years later, almost to the day, we lose Oliver. Um, and I just remember my my grandpa who like kept it genealogy from what I understood. Um, like after those losses basically went back and was like, Oh, I uh because he'd like keep up the totals of like numbers of people in the families. And after the losses, he like completely went back and changed everything because he was like, I haven't been including the the ones he had passed. And so like that number actually like jumped up pretty good once he started really going back and including everybody's losses. Yeah. And I just always thought that was really beautiful that like inclusion of all of these people, regardless of you know, maybe they were here for two days, maybe they were here for two years. I mean, but they they still count, you know. Yeah. And uh I don't know. I just think that's it's I feel like there's been so much hope of just being open about that part of ourselves though too, because it just is like you never know who you're gonna talk to who's gone through something you know, maybe not that, but something even like that. It just feels like it's such an instant open door of just like, yeah, we've we've gone through some stuff, you know, or we've experienced loss or heart heartache, you know.

joylily 1:29:45

It's just it's been a really neat thing, I think, for our family to like connect and find healing on being that open with people about Yeah, I think uh it has helped connect us with some really sweet stories and you know, and seasons in people's lives too. Um obviously that was kind of how my photography got started.

will 1:30:12

Yeah, yeah.

joylily 1:30:12

That it's a pretty big deal.

will 1:30:15

Um talk about that. What was that born out of?

joylily 1:30:19

Yeah, no, I just it was very quickly after we lost him that I just felt that emptiness of not having him and the like I mean your arms literally just ache to hold a little one. And so um just feeling like there's just like this pent-up like love that I wanted to pour out on him and being like, what can I do to both have a an outlet, like a creative outlet? Because I am a very creative person, even with my to-do lists. Um and so what can I do as a creative outlet to kind of release some of that energy? But also what can I do to love on people around me well? Because that was the part of me that just felt really empty, was like I should be holding a baby, I should be loving so much so deeply on this person, and I've gotten nothing for it. So that kind of started the whole photography journey. And um when I first started, I think I was really leaning into mostly families and motherhood and newborns, and just really trying to document the experience I hadn't had just now, you know. It went it went so quickly being in the hospital and then just not having a single good picture of me with our first baby. Like, no mom should be in that spot, that's ridiculous. And so I think it became kind of a passion project from even just that experience of like, I want to make sure that doesn't happen to another mom.

will 1:32:00

No, it was, I mean, it was really beautiful, but for anyone listening though, too, like after we lost him in the hospital at two days old, um we had X amount of time with him and family and whatnot, and some really close friends. Um they actually did have a like breathe nurse who came in and and took pictures. And it was she was like such a like a kind spirit, but like she literally just cried her eyes out and just had tears running the entire time and was taking these pictures for us, and it was just like so thankful for someone swooping in and documenting something that you hope to never have to document. But oh yeah, those pictures mean so so much.

joylily 1:32:50

Yeah, and to this day I really can't look at them without crying. But I feel like one of the beautiful things about that is in a way it does keep me like tied to like this was a real experience because yeah, your brain does some really funny things when you go through traumatic grief. Yes, and one of those funny things is just did that really happen? And so I think that was that was a gift, and then your aunt um came and did pictures at the future. Natalie did. Natalie, yeah.

will 1:33:24

Yep, that's awesome.

joylily 1:33:25

Which has she has she been on this podcast?

will 1:33:28

No, I hope to have her on.

joylily 1:33:29

Okay, I was gonna say, I know that that was okay. Anyways, yeah, so Natalie came and did pictures, and um those have just time after time been just such a gift to be able to go look back on them and be like, hey, these were the people that supported us in that season. This is what it looked like to be there. I mean, everything was such a blur that it's just like it's a very grounding to have those pictures. Um, and so I think with with all of that experience just like freshly behind me, I really wanted to make sure I could pass that along to other people. And um, and that's where the ministry side I would say by ministry, I guess I just mean the the free, the pro bono side of the photography came, which was showing up for people when they had funerals for their kids or when they were in the hospital saying goodbye to their kids, or I did a birth for a mom that knew she wasn't gonna have her baby alive for very long. And you know, those are all just such heartbreaking things to be in. But once you've gone through it yourself, it's a lot less scary, and you feel like you can actually bring a strength to the situation, and you feel like you can offer so much heart in that situation and say, like, hey, I know you don't want these pictures right now because these pictures depict a reality that you wish you weren't living in. Yeah, but in a few years you're gonna want these pictures because they're gonna help remind you of where you've been and how far you've come.

will 1:35:00

And I thought this person was here. It's been such a good Yeah, this person was really here.

joylily 1:35:05

That you didn't make it up, you did have a kid here.

will 1:35:08

No, I remember one of your first really like the ones I think that are just really struck me too is um some friends whose uh little two-year-old boy drowned in the swimming pool and like July 4th day, maybe. And you just we were supposed to like work the day of this funeral, which was very shortly after, and I think it was just like, you know, my the family was just you know that we're working for my family. Just like Yeah, you need to go be there. So you just went and offered to do those pictures for free and everything, and it was just really beautiful. But back to it's kind of interesting, but back to kind of what you were talking about earlier, just that like that helper tendency, that you know, saying yes to too many things. I remember shortly after we got married, you really wanted to start getting into photography too, and I was just like, Joe, I don't know. I think we've got so much going on right now, and we just found out we're expecting let's just we need to just maybe hold off on that for now.

joylily 1:36:11

And so when you're saying getting into photography, we're referring to actually like a business again, yeah. Starting up a a job, not um because I'd already been doing photography for years before that, like establishing an LLC and all that, yeah. Doing the the legal games, yes.

will 1:36:28

But no, because it I mean I knew there was gonna be an expense up front and whatnot, too, and so it was just like let's just hold off on that, and I think we were both kind of on the same page on that. And then literally as soon as we lost him, and it was just like there was this immediate vacancy, it was like, Alright, yeah, it's time to pick that up and pick it up with all the weight and responsibility, like you said, because it wasn't I mean it's it's a camera in your arms, it's not what you're looking for, what you wanted, but I mean I just so thankful to have seen you take up that mantle and calling and just like truly use the loss as a as an opportunity to heal, you know, and and offer that to someone else, you know.

joylily 1:37:21

Yeah. And it did. It that was a really good um vehicle for processing.

will 1:37:29

Yeah.

joylily 1:37:29

And I feel like I got to come up alongside so many people and and still get to, like it's not like it's sober, but no, right, right. Yeah, it's it's done a lot for me, and and my hope is that it's done a lot for people too, that I've gotten to serve. But I think it's been it's been good to enter into it, I think, with the weightiness of parenthood. Even at that point where I had only gotten to truly, you know, quote unquote parent a kid for two days.

will 1:38:05

There was all the time he was growing too, but and all the time after, you're you're still a parent. It's just different.

joylily 1:38:12

Yeah, you're carrying it very differently for sure. But I think it was a good time to enter into it because I think everything that I envisioned parenthood as before was very whimsical and it was very not founded in a full reality. And not that I even would assume that I understand everything now, but I think I at least understand how weighty the responsibility of parenthood is now. And that experience really started that understanding of weightiness, and I think before that I was just like, hey, let's all, you know, smile for the camera, let's all have a really great time together. And sure, like smiley pictures are awesome, still love them, but like it took the pressure off of every kid smiling for every picture, yeah. It took the pressure off of parents even having a really great time all the time, every session, and it was more like, hey, let's let's just capture you guys doing what you do, and like these are gonna be really candid, very um a moment in time type pictures, and I think it brought it back to more reality and capturing people in their element and kind of more like what you as a parent really want to remember of your kids' childhood. Oh, totally, or of your parenthood, you know. Them doing their thing, them doing their thing, yeah. And and not so much just like really fake posed pictures that were preceded by everybody losing their minds and having to bribe everybody and yeah, absolutely.

will 1:39:57

No, so in other words, uh that experience plays. Heavily into even your style.

joylily 1:40:02

Yeah, it did.

will 1:40:02

You know, the type of photos that people are getting is something very natural, something um you know, very them.

joylily 1:40:11

Yeah.

will 1:40:12

And not that I mean pose stuff is good too from time to time, but the the the natural stuff I think is what you can lean much more towards, and and these experiences just inspired that.

joylily 1:40:24

Yeah, it it fit where my experience was kind of leading at that point.

will 1:40:29

No, definitely. Yeah, that's really cool. It's good to hear. And obviously, you're still doing it. Joylilly photography is alive and well.

joylily 1:40:38

I should have sponsored this podcast, actually.

will 1:40:40

There's still time. There's still time.

joylily 1:40:42

Maybe I'll just buy you a coffee. Do you even take sponsorships?

will 1:40:47

Not anyway. Um, seriously. But it's been beautiful watching you do that and take that on as like a form of healing, a form of creativity, but I think it has encouraged so many people too, so it's just neat to get to consider. It really comes back to, I think, the helping. I've already made that connection, but I just want to keep making that connection because I think it's fulfilling to you because it is you.

joylily 1:41:17

Yes. Well, I think it's it's one of those things that is very much at the core of who I am. And and I think this is why I do resonate with some of the concepts of the Enneagram, actually, which is that no matter what has happened in my life, it kind of does circle back to like at some point I just want to help people. Um, and that was I mean, that's what I studied in college. It was to help people, and and then even doing this photography thing, it's to me to need. Um, and so I don't ever want to serve people just because I'm like, well, make a quick buck, or like they just you know, needed somebody who knew how to use a camera. Um, I think my goal has always been like, how can I serve people to the best of my ability? And then providing excellent service point to even the Lord, you know? Absolutely. Sometimes that's overt, sometimes it's not, but um, I think excellence is always a Christian standard to hold, and and I think that it's a gift to be able to actually do that for people.

will 1:42:27

Yeah, and a presence of intentionality, of kindness, of empathy, of you know, seeing. Yeah. Maybe seeing the unseen.

joylily 1:42:37

Yeah, it's it's looking ahead and seeing what needs might need to be filled, and trying to anticipate people's needs well so that they actually feel seen and heard and valued.

will 1:42:48

Yeah, because just like that breathement nurse, it takes a special kind of person to go into a hospital and prepare instill your heart to take pictures of a baby who's gonna be on this earth for 20 minutes.

joylily 1:43:03

Yeah. And so many people told me like I couldn't do that, and and I get it. And at the same time, I'm like, I couldn't imagine not standing by a mom going through that.

will 1:43:15

No.

joylily 1:43:15

Like if I have the opportunity to, I'm going to.

will 1:43:18

Yeah.

joylily 1:43:19

Um yeah, because it's such a lonely place already. Like I can't let myself or my hurt get in the way of making sure that somebody is held in that moment.

will 1:43:33

Like it won't take away the pain, but it will it will.

joylily 1:43:38

It provides a source of strength.

will 1:43:40

Yeah, it does.

joylily 1:43:42

Yeah.

will 1:43:42

It does.

joylily 1:43:43

It's like, here, borrow borrow my strength so that you can throw it. Yeah.

will 1:43:47

Because now once we got to the other side of our stuff, more so it was just like, wow, we really had people make up the difference. Yeah. Yeah, people showing up and uh, you know, encouraging us to eat, to do life things, you know. It's like all the things you kind of want to just like give up on and you're not thinking about it. Just not thinking about it.

joylily 1:44:17

Yeah, I still remember going to that concert on the Connor Prairie one with like the Star Wars what do they call that?

will 1:44:24

Like an orchestra.

joylily 1:44:26

Yeah, no, but like cover band is is it a cover band if it's an orchestra?

will 1:44:33

Yeah. Tribute.

joylily 1:44:34

That's what it was called. It was the it was a Star Wars tribute. Um, and just being like, I think it was a couple weeks out from losing him and being like, why are we even here? But at the same time, just feeling like there's something really peaceful about being like, we're doing something normal right now. Trying to. Trying to, uh huh. Trying to enjoy it. And just felt like such a gift to be invited by those friends to like go do that.

will 1:45:03

No. Now you look back on pictures of you and that and you just look like wigged out.

joylily 1:45:07

Oh yeah. I I look back at those pictures and I'm like, wow, that was raw.

will 1:45:12

Yeah.

joylily 1:45:13

But yeah, it meant a lot to us, I think, to to have those different people who are like, here's something normal to go do.

will 1:45:20

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's beautiful. Yeah, glad you get to go to these places and be there. You know, be a presence, be a bring that spirit alongside you.

joylily 1:45:36

Me too.

will 1:45:37

And just I don't know. Be a light when all other lights go out. That's my Lord of the Rings line. Oh, okay. Uh you have seen those movies, right? I have seen those movies. I'm so sorry I'm not well versed in them. It's okay. For now. Um, it's a wildflower that resonates with you, Joy. Besides the one you have in your name, Joy Lily. Yeah. Is a lily a wildflower? I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

joylily 1:46:07

There's like uh Easter lilies. Those are I mean, there's also like planted ones, but yeah, there are a lot of kinds of lilies. The like tiger lilies are also anyways, yeah. There's there's a lot. Um Yeah, I'm a huge wildflower person, as you know. I well, you got that bumper sticker that says we'll stop for a break for wildflowers.

will 1:46:30

A break for wildflowers, yeah. No, when I first was starting this project, it was really sweet because Joy was fully on board. Um, and basically everywhere around our home. I never knew when the car was gonna get like pulled off on the side of the road so that she could go and collect some wildflowers for our table and uh grace us with them sometimes. Yeah. I think I even said that it was a little scary sometimes, but it was always like I don't know, it's very you and so it is.

joylily 1:46:58

I I'm a huge fan of taking nature and bringing it into the house. Um partially because it's just pretty and it's just like refreshing. Yeah. And partially because it's an expression, I think, of admiring God's handiwork and being like, let's take a an extra minute to to enjoy that and to look at that. Um But yeah, I do love wildflowers.

will 1:47:23

Um I think my favorite spite of our experiences, your natural inclination is to be much more optimistic. Wildflowery or sunshine and I'm not saying the negative even a little bit. I think that those are really purely things at your core, even in spite of that. Whereas I'm much more gravitated toward the skulls and death imagery of everything. Like I think in a lot of ways those really complement each other because I think we're both trying to express the same thing in our own lanes and formats. And I think even this project has come to life so much through your namesake, through like that almost like um unfettered joy of wildflowers popping up around us, and like, you know, my awareness of them just became that much more accessible because you were already doing that. You were already putting them out on the table, already plucking them up, and it just like it was really healing to me, I think, to finally get to see that there was more to the world of grief and healing than purely death imagery. Yeah. There was this whole death and also this resurrection that, you know.

joylily 1:48:52

Well, and to follow you down that trail really quick too. I think um not something I really went into when we were talking about like my upbringing, but I think I had a very uh narrow, very shallow view of like faith and who God was, and I thought like only positive emotions and only positive happy things were godly things. Think on whatsoever is yeah, whatever is beautiful and you know, righteous and all these things. Those probably aren't even the right words, but um, but you know, I just was like, well, God just likes good things, good, good, good.

will 1:49:36

And maybe only good things.

joylily 1:49:37

And like, and I thought that good meant only things that you're comfortable with, things that didn't like hurt, those were good things, and I think there's just been this beauty of the balance of your perspective and mine, where it's like I brought this like almost relentless optimism to the table, and you brought this like just heavy burdening of like life is a lot, and we put those two things together, and it's like we've had to learn from each other in that way where it was like for me, I had to really learn that unless you understand how deeply life can hurt, it doesn't really give meaning or weight to the joy that you can experience. Otherwise, it's just kind of like a yeah, it's just kind of like that cotton candy happiness where it's just like it vaporizes almost as soon as you touch it. And um for you, I think you've had to lean into a little bit more of the like, hey, life can bring good with it, and like and good isn't just comfortable things, but it can be comfortable things, yeah. You know, and it's just like it's opened both of our eyes to seeing a little bit broader of our perspective, I think, too, which is really cool. And I think that again, that's it's a gift of marriage, is being able to say, like, hey, you bring something to the table that I needed to grow in, and I brought something you needed to grow in, and together we've kind of balanced each other out quite a bit.

will 1:51:14

Yeah, so good. Because I think I don't and I tried to say that though too, like, I don't think the optimism was to the point of like being like a maybe in some ways like a toxic positivity.

joylily 1:51:27

I think when I first met you, yeah, it was definitely more that side.

will 1:51:31

And I I don't know how much I would even call what I was in pessimism. You know, of course I would tend to view it as like there were all my peers. I mean, most people hadn't really experienced that, so I kind of felt like my presence was like the grim reaper. You know. Like, yeah, I don't think you were pessimistic.

joylily 1:51:52

I think you were just heavy.

will 1:51:54

Heavy, yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. And I think that there has been like a really beautiful melding of just like um pulling each other to like a pulling each other gently to a middle ground, you know, and not trying to change the other, but just this natural um long play type influence, you know, on a regular basis. So no. Thanks for the quick uh derail.

joylily 1:52:22

Yeah. Okay, so there's this really good Dallas Woodward quote that I like, and it says, Joy is consistent with sorrow because it is a realization with what is really going on in the world at large under God. And I think before I went through that whole experience with Oliver alongside you, like I just had this idea that joy could only exist without the presence of sorrow. That it was like that the two things were mutually exclusive. And I just learned so quickly, so so traumatically, but also beautifully, like that those two things actually give each other meaning. You know, you have to have a certain level of weightiness to to existence for joy to even matter.

will 1:53:17

Yeah.

joylily 1:53:18

Um and yeah, and God is acquainted with both. He doesn't leave you, you know, as soon as things go rough, he's not like, well, that really wasn't my plan, like I'm out. Um, but he's his plans include the whole gamut of experiences and the whole range of any emotion that you could feel, or you know, any kind of both sadness and joy that you can feel. And so I feel like it actually gives me a better perspective of who God is to to have experienced those things because it says, hey, He He's inviting me to step into that too, you know.

will 1:54:00

Absolutely.

joylily 1:54:00

He created us for that.

will 1:54:02

Well, I feel like maybe I've said this on here before, even, but like I think we kind of get this idea in our head that God in reality are at conflict with one another. But in reality, God is using that reality.

joylily 1:54:21

Yeah.

will 1:54:22

And you know, when we define reality, yeah, whether we get to understand his intentions or not, we we know and grapple with the experiences that we get to have. So when you go through an experience like this and you can say God is good prior, do you say it afterwards? You know? And if you can, it holds a whole brand new weight to it. Oh yeah. You know, because your soul's literally just been bored out and carved to the brand new depths. So it hits different, but yeah.

joylily 1:54:54

No, I remember like just weeks before Oliver was born standing in Bethel, you know, that old really pretty stained glass church, and I mean, just beautiful acoustics and all of that. And we were singing Greatest Eye Faithfulness, and I was just like holding my belly and just feeling so grateful that I got to like carry this baby, and just like the anticipation that was kind of compounding, and just everything about it just felt so weighty, but like in a good way.

will 1:55:28

Yeah.

joylily 1:55:28

And then I remember literally the first week back after losing him and singing that song again. And just like standing there with no baby. Still just like singing the words that he was saying. Obviously, it's still gets me now. Singing it that second time. I actually had to mean it, you know. Yeah, the first time it was like, well daddy's faithful. Like, of course.

will 1:56:12

Right. I've been singing this all my life.

joylily 1:56:15

Yeah, the second time it was like, are you though? And then you had to, or I mean I had to really I really had to hope that the words would catch up with my heart, or that my heart would catch up with the words, I guess. You know, that uh that it would be reality because it didn't feel like it at that moment. So yeah. That's still just as fresh as it was eight and a half years ago.

will 1:56:53

No, I l I love absolutely that you kept it fresh. I mean, just already on top of thinking it's been so absolutely beautiful to watch you bear him, you know, because I was obviously excited to be a dad, but I was so excited, speaking of witnessing to witness you be a mother. Yeah. And that just watching the joy that that had brought you, and like you know, mm witnessing firsthand the the continual bearing of him that you've done has just been the so cool actually, because I think it's like you already said, it's even to this day still remembering, keeping it that fresh. Like, thank God you're keeping it him fresh. Yeah. You know, I think that it just shows he's very alive and very real in that way.

joylily 1:57:55

Yeah.

will 1:57:56

You know. Alright, so wildflower.

joylily 1:58:00

Yeah, so I feel like I've actually picked a wildflower for each of our boys. Or playing Oliver's was just like a little for each, obviously.

unknown 1:58:12

Mm-hmm.

joylily 1:58:13

But um yeah, I I've picked a little wildflower for each of them, and the sum total of them would be my wildflower.

will 1:58:21

Yeah. Um, but I think my favorite one is Yarrow, and I just love Wait, now that you've said that about each boy, you have to go through if there's Oh yeah.

joylily 1:58:32

Um so Lincoln, Lincoln was my Yarrow baby. Um, and I'll come back to why. And then Wilder was brown-eyed Susan's because the night that I had him, I picked a whole bunch of them. We went on a walk on a trail, and I couldn't even finish the walk because I started going into Libra with him. So when he was born, there's this beautiful base of tons of brown-eyed Susans on their table, and I've just always kind of associated that with him. Um, and he also really likes it, which is cool. And then Oh, it was sparrows.

will 1:59:08

I have no idea.

joylily 1:59:09

I'm drawing a blank. I totally picked one for him. Oh, sunflowers.

will 1:59:17

Oh, okay.

joylily 1:59:18

Yeah, um, because we had planted those this summer, and it was just really sweet, like getting to go sit outside and seeing them popping up and then enjoying him outside with the sunflowers. No I don't know. He's just a little sunshiny waving to me. So, um yeah, so then the yarrow though, I think that's one of my favorite ones, and one of the reasons is there are so many different varieties of your yarrow, like it's not just one kind of flower, um, but there's so many pretty colors of them, and so aesthetically they're beautiful, but then they're also very healing, and that was.

will 2:01:45

Thanks, everybody who tuned in.