We Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny

Chemical Warfare: How Marketers Hijack the Brain—And How You Can Too

• Season 1 • Episode 70

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0:00 | 22:20

Are you really in control of your decisions… or are you just responding to a carefully crafted chemical cocktail designed by marketers who know exactly what they're doing?

In this episode, we explore the science behind persuasion—how primal brain wiring, dopamine hits, and subconscious desires shape what we say yes to (and what we don’t). We’ll break down real-world examples from expert marketers like Russell Brunson, reveal how stories, scarcity, and status light up your brain like a pinball machine, and show you how to ethically use these same principles in your own business to increase conversions, influence, and impact.

Whether you're a marketer, entrepreneur, or just someone who wants to reclaim the driver’s seat of your own mind… this episode will open your eyes—and maybe blow your mind.

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Welcome Back with Sunny

Speaker 1

Welcome to we Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny Miller. Sunny is back. Take it away, Sunny.

Speaker 2

I am back and here's the thing my voice is still a little rough. I was sick last week, so you took the reins.

Speaker 1

Probably our lowest number podcast no of course not. It exploded. I should just exit.

Speaker 2

Anyway, I'm really excited. Here we're sitting in Provo, Utah, and just got done with an amazing day one event at Chris Krohn's house.

Speaker 1

Yep, and it is quite a house. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2

Let's just say there was a 25,000 square foot addition to his home right and we've been there and check us out on Instagram if you want to see some photos on our story of all the fun things we've been up to over here, let's go. Bart and Sunny on Insta, but we're going to dive in today to our topic, and it is about persuasion.

Speaker 1

I like that, I like to persuade you.

Speaker 2

I know it can be pretty fun, but persuasion is an art and those who are masters at wielding it can use it for good or evil, but either way, I think we should call it what it is manipulation, right? Yeah, I mean, when you're trying to persuade somebody, it's really because you're trying to manipulate them into your point of view. Lately we've been investigating persuasion a lot and its matrix-like effect on our lives and on society, and it's really caused me in particular to pause and wonder if we actually ever make our own decisions like we think we do.

Speaker 1

And I think the conclusion to that is probably not.

The Art of Persuasion as Manipulation

Speaker 2

Pretty scary, isn't it? Yeah, I mean the way things are positioned and framed from the time like we're born really all contribute to how we see the world. But it's all perception and it's all fed perceptions. So our brains are beautifully predictable machines and they're hardwired to follow patterns, believe it or not. Patterns and it's core, your primal brain, is constantly scanning for seven primal desires. Do you want to know what those are, bart?

Speaker 1

Do I ever?

Speaker 2

You probably already know off the top of your head, but I'm going to say them anyway. We've got survival, security, status, love, connection, autonomy, self-actualization and validation perfection, autonomy, self-actualization and validation. Now we like to think that we are logical people making purely logical decisions all the time, but the truth is we're not. We're not even close. We're making chemical decisions, chemical dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin. They're quietly steering the wheel, rewarding us with a hit when we move toward anything that promises one of these core desires. So yes, believe it or not, persuasion is chemical. Now the reason? Well, here's the thing. So marketers who don't understand this don't just like back up. Marketers who do understand this don't just sell. What they're doing is they're disrupting patterns and they're positioning their products, webinars, pitches and programs to directly hit those chemical triggers. That's why the right message can turn hesitation into a sold out launch absolutely you've seen this play out right we have.

Speaker 1

We've watched lots of times in our career.

Speaker 2

Yeah, now I'm going to kind of take an aside here and also in relationships, people who understand this are more likely to help others see their point of view. So, for example, I have been absolutely astonished at our son Xander. He's 15, innate ability to position what he wants to me in a way that it makes it a win for me.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And I wish I had a really good example off the top of my head. And the thing is, he'll come to me with something that he wants really bad, but then he'll turn it around so that it makes me want it or it'll make me feel like I'm not a good mom if he doesn't have it. You know, say that, and it's been really surprising and shocking to me to see like just, I think he was born with it and I think it's a little bit watching you too. I think it's a combination.

Speaker 1

Yeah, no, he's masterful at it, for sure.

Speaker 2

Right, it's like the art of negotiation is positioning things to what the core value is of the person that you're talking to. So just want to throw that out there. It's pretty fun to watch once I figured out what he was doing to me. Um, so, on the other hand, marketers who don't understand what they're doing in this category will probably spend hours and hours building out products and services that are actually really great. They work really really hard and really really want to make a big impact, but no one's buying them, simply because they aren't positioned according to our predictably irrational brains. And there's a book you love.

Speaker 1

Predictably Irrational by Dan Eyerly.

Speaker 2

Yep, what do you say?

Our Chemical Decision-Making Process

Speaker 1

what do you mean? You have everybody yeah, oh, everybody read this like it's every one of my elites, everybody around me. This is the number one book to absolutely consume and understand. Now there's a few chapters in there that I'm not too worried about, but the main structure of how he does things is absolutely epic.

Speaker 2

It is, and so you know homework.

Speaker 2

Number one go get that book if you haven't read it yet.

Speaker 2

Number two is we recently purchased the Puppet Master's Bible by Tom Walker, and I'm sure some of the stuff covered here in this book is also along the same lines as predictably rational. But I think Dan does a really good job of outlining some of the key points that he brings up. So once again we see entrepreneurs who are working really hard, trying to make sales come through and they're just not happening because they don't understand the art of persuasion and all the levers in our brains that need to be turned in order to give us these chemical hits that we're all searching for, that need to be turned in order to give us these chemical hits that we're all searching for. And I think the interesting thing as I've been kind of dissecting more of this stuff is we pick up some of it in, say, a copywriting course, or we watch some of our mentors or we watch really great marketers do their thing, and so we're like, oh, that was cool, so we kind of incorporate it. We don't understand the why behind it.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

And so understanding the why behind the, what I think is where true power lies.

Speaker 1

Amen.

Speaker 2

Anything else you're thinking of right now?

Speaker 1

Well, I just made me think of beliefs. It's the same thing of breaking down a belief, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, and I think you know a lot of marketers. It's almost like you have to build a new belief in somebody a lot of times, but anyway, Okay. So we're going to deconstruct a pitch just a little bit. Okay, I'm not going to like go through a whole pitch, but just show you pieces of the puzzle that are kind of into play. And, on a side note too, a lot of these again can be used in relationships. So, like you know, you can bring a lot of this stuff into conversations or communication you need to have with a partner or business partner or whatever. It's really pretty crazy how they can cross over and we really don't have time to dissect a lot of the art of persuasion. I mean, when you get into storytelling alone, there's so many different frameworks. But just to show kind of a glimpse of behind the scenes, of what's happening in a pitch, I think would be really cool.

Speaker 1

Let's do it.

Speaker 2

Okay. So if you've ever watched, like Russell Brunson or any world class marketer pitch product or coaching program, here's some things that are really happening below the surface, and the first one is stories. We're always told that stories sell the product, but why? It's because we actually have mirror neurons in our brain that start to fire when somebody's telling us a story and they sync up with that storyteller. So at that point your ego mind, your logical brain, is basically shut off. You're fully engaged emotionally in what that person is saying and, as we know, we make emotional buying decisions right. So storytelling is really really powerful and, like I said a few minutes ago, there's a lot of different storytelling frameworks out there.

Speaker 2

I think the hero's journey is kind of the most common that you would hear through an entrepreneur or so girls, but there's actually quite a few. The next one is the new opportunity. You're going to hear about a new opportunity and this fires the primal desire for novelty. So, like, we want self-actualization, we want novelty, we want stimulation. That's one of the things, because we're like, ooh, it's new, it's exciting, like what is it right? Social proof, testimonials equals security. Others did this and succeeded, so I probably will too. I think. A fun example of this in the real world is when you drive by a restaurant and you see a line all the way out the door. What do you think?

Speaker 1

Well, you mean it's obviously got to be great, so I'm worth going to stand in line. I'm going to try this out.

Speaker 2

Yep, but as we were talking the other day, you're saying like sometimes people are paid to go stand in line, right?

Speaker 1

Yep Cause FOMO.

Speaker 2

Yep.

Speaker 1

You know, cause them to think, oh my gosh, this is so great I got to be part of this. So you know, yeah, it's absolutely.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. So there's another puppet master string. Somebody could be pulling on you. They've got paid people standing in line to make you think that they have the best food ever, right, I love it. Um, community. So a lot of times these programs that are pitched obviously like have a community, uh, part of them and that taps into our deep desire for connection and belonging. And there's the good old urgency or scarcity Only 100 seats left or offer ends in 24 hours activates our fear mechanism, our survival mechanism. We're like oh, it's limited, we've got to get it. We've got to get it right now right Yep.

Speaker 2

Bonuses. A lot of times bonuses are offered. They remove doubt by solving objections before they arise, which gives you more security. All these things are like triggering little chemical reactions in your brain and making you feel good about the decision that you're going to make Right, flexible.

Speaker 1

One of the funny things that just made me pop in my head is like Sunny knows this, but a lot of you don't.

Speaker 2

I'm not a gamer no so I've never played if you want to have a game night with us, we'll probably say not, unless it's pickleball yeah, even, and I'm talking specifically video games okay but I went through mcdonald's and they had a minecraft box for your big mac.

Deconstructing a Pitch: Persuasion Techniques

Speaker 1

Okay, so it. So it was a Minecraft type of a thing, and so I don't know why I was in a hurry. So I went and I was just, or, I wanted to order a big Mac and so I saw the Minecraft thing and I'm thinking, oh, maybe he's at it, or like that. So I ordered the Minecraft one, okay, okay, they didn't have it, they, they were out. So so I was like I felt like I was gypped, you know, I was like what the heck? So then, uh, xander had saxophone lessons, so I went to that same mcdonald's, went to order it again and I'm just like I'm ordering that now, like because I want it because he didn't have it, and I'm like I'm going to order it Like Xander's with me, and he's like I don't care.

Speaker 1

I'm like no, no, we're getting this thing. So funny how the brain works, though, right. So then I was just chuckling about that. Well it, right, so, but they didn't have it again.

Speaker 2

So you still haven't, still don't have it, but I bet you're going to go try again.

Speaker 1

I don't know about that, but anyway, it was just funny.

Speaker 2

That is interesting because it is like oh, it's scarce, so now I want it more, but then also now I have an open loop to which I have no, no resolution for it which is another persuasion technique that we're not going to fully cover here but so funny Flexible payment plans.

Speaker 2

This is very interesting because we want autonomy right so we want to feel like we're in the driver's seat of our lives, like we're the ones choosing. If you have a flexible payment plan that actually gives the people a feeling of autonomy because they're choosing their own pathway into your program, so good, isn't that? Interesting Status, obviously being part of a program instantly elevates your identity, which means you have instant significance. Validation that's good.

Speaker 2

Lifetime access is things that we've been seeing a lot recently. Lifetime access it's yours forever. So all of a sudden it's like oh, I don't have to pay every year for that. Like, oh, like. It gives you a really big sense of security of like it's never going away, even though it's only if you read the small print lifetime access of the products. The product goes away, but still it just gives you this like anchor. And then lately we've also been seeing something to the effect of lock-in lifetime access right now with a minimum payment, like today, and then sometime this week you can choose if you want to pay in full or if you want to pay monthly. So you've got your urgency and your scarcity, you've got security if you lock it in then. But you have to lock it in right then, and then you have autonomy. It's like this perfect blend of like take my money.

Speaker 1

Yep, so good.

Speaker 2

Now the cost of missed opportunity. You're always going to hear about this one too if you're on a pitch Like what is the cost of your missed opportunity right now? That's actually the prospect theory in action and we've talked about this probably a month ago. But the prospect theory discovered that people make decisions based on perceived gains or losses. They feel losses more intensely than they do gains. So if you lose $100, it's going to hurt a lot more than $100 gain feels. You won't feel as ecstatic. It won't be equal how you feel about that.

Speaker 2

So in marketing, you wouldn't say you'll increase your revenue by 10K. You would say you're leaving 10K a month on the table by not doing this. So what's the cost of this missed opportunity? If you don't take opportunity right now, all your competitors are going to get there before you or like whatever. It might be Right and I forgot to put price marinating on here. But price marinating is a big one and I feel like Dan I really kind of dials that in with some of his packages that he puts up there. But um, there's like retail stores who will have like a $5,000 coat and then they'll put like a $500 coat right next to it, knowing full well, you'll compare the two and you'll think $500 coat is really cheap.

Speaker 2

So that's price marrying right. You put your price up there and it's big, and then by the time the pitch actually happens, it's like 25% of that price or less.

Speaker 1

Well, you know, I do it at events and I'll say, look, if I give you a hundred thousand dollars, you or less. Well, you know, I do it at events and I'll say, look, if I give you $100,000 and you know, during the event I want to show you $100,000 worth of value, right, would that be worth it to you guys? And then you know they're marinating on $100,000. And when you get to the pitch, you sell the pitch for $20,000. It's like whoa that's so cheap.

Speaker 2

Trigger words, things like exclusive premium hidden these all spark chemical curiosity and FOMO and I mean this is really just the tip of the iceberg. There is so much um kind of. Once it got through this book I'm like okay, I think I constantly have somebody pulling the strings in my life.

Speaker 2

I mean even the language that you use, metaphors that you use can bring up symbolism that's hidden behind it. That will actually make you think a certain way. Politics use it a lot. I want to say some of the terms would be like a tax burden versus like an investment into your country. You know is how, how we perceive things. So it's a powerful, powerful, powerful tool, and I think the thing, you know, that really kind of makes me passionate about in particular and I could hear your side of the story too is that piece of we spend so much time developing something only to have it sit there because we don't understand these levers that will move people to consume our stuff.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's extremely frustrating because there's a lot of great products that absolutely get shelled. When there's not such a great product but the vocabulary, the wording, everything around it makes it so enticing that it's just so irresistible. You're going to buy it, and, uh, and that's just because of lack of knowledge. Yeah, right, and so that's why it takes all kinds of people to run the world. But in the marketing, in this type of space, you've got to get real serious about using words that have power.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and I would say you know, I think there's a lot of people who are world-class copywriters and that's their thing, is every single word that's there has a reason for being there. It's not just trying to figure out what's going to do things, it's weighted words.

Reclaiming Control of Your Decisions

Speaker 2

so I just had another thought, but I forgot what it was that's alright um, Anyway, grab your copy of the Puppet Master's Bible if you want to dive in deep. It's actually really long it's about 300 page book and really shines a light on so many more techniques and things to really think through. Another thing that I love about it is that you know if you're someone who's maybe not a marketer but you simply want to reclaim control over your own decisions in a world full of psychological puppeteers, understanding, persuasion is power for you, and the more you decode it, the more you step into the driver's seat of your own life and guess what you can do Play full out, the more you understand it.

Speaker 2

And I especially think you know, sometimes we get into our own algorithms or our own perspectives, and all these persuasion techniques are feeding into that. So sometimes it does take a step back and going okay, like who's actually pulling the strings here? Let me take a wider view, wider lens, so that I can make my own decision on this.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of when you're driving your car, somewhere that you've been multiple, multiple times.

Speaker 1

It just is neurological path, yeah, you just you just go through the motions Right, and so much in life. We do that and we don't even realize all the strings are being pulled. So sometimes, by having this knowledge, it really lets you go. Okay, wait a minute, I'm going to take a new route home so that I can just start to be aware and be conscious of what is going on as I'm doing this experience, as I'm living life.

Speaker 2

Yeah, sometimes it can be a big pattern interrupt because, like you said, like our brains want to feel familiar, they want to feel safe, they want to do all these things and these chemicals are leading us down this path and sometimes I'm gonna be like whoa, that is hitting my neurological system so strangely. But it's actually waking you up, right.

Speaker 1

Yep, so good.

Speaker 2

Sh right yep so good.

Speaker 1

Shocking you awake, so cool. All right, that is that.

Life Updates and Event Experience

Speaker 2

So let's talk about some life updates. Let's do it well. Like I said earlier, we're currently in utah at a chris crone event. Um, I've been a little down, you know, sick still you've been out networking like a boss and you've met some really cool people. I've got to meet them briefly.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's been amazing. So, you know, chris was kind enough to reach out and invite us to this event and, uh, just really really kind to said hey, I got some really great people coming. I want to show you my new place and would you just come and be part. And so when I got here, I had no expectations and Chris always delivers on what he's bringing to the table and so I thought I'll show up and it's been absolutely amazing Met some really really cool human beings, got to spend some great time with Chris and what a beautiful house he's put together and on a cool mission.

Speaker 2

Really cool. And then also Garrett White is here.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a lot of really really amazing people. White is here. Yeah, there's a lot of like really really amazing people.

Speaker 2

Well, I'm just telling you, we've known him for about five years.

Speaker 1

We've known Garrett for a long time and got to spend some really cool time with him. Actually, took some fun photos if you haven't seen them and you might, but just got to experience, you know, more connectivity and actually have time to talk, not just give each other a hug and walk away.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yep, it time to talk, not just give each other a hug and walk away. Yeah, yep, it's been awesome. So Sunday we're taking the drive to Boise for our next inner circle meeting, so that's coming up. In a few days, we're going to share an Airbnb with some amazing friends of ours.

Speaker 1

Fred and Jacqueline.

Speaker 2

Adore them. We're really, really excited to go do that Go to see more meetings, see some people and, of course, sneak away for some pickleball. We're having pickleball withdrawals right now. I really am we're pleased to announce that Xander passed his written driving exam and now he will proceed to hopefully pass his driving exam, and then he will be unleashed on the roads. Let's go. I don't know what I'm going to do with myself when I don't have to drive him to school at 6.45 every morning for jazz band.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you're going to be pretty excited about that, I think.

Speaker 2

A little sad and a little excited at the same time, right Yep. Okay, anything else I'm missing.

Speaker 1

I don't think so. We've been getting some really cool updates from our daughter. Our other daughter is headed to Japan right now. As we speak. She's in the air and uh, lila is growing faster than I want her to. Lots of cool things there Videos you've been showing and uh, I think that's pretty much it. Well awesome, so we'll wrap it up with this segment sponsored by I do epic.

Head Shot

Bart Miller

Host
Head Shot

Sunny Miller

Host