Explore emotional economics with Jacquette Timmons, Financial Behaviorist and author of "Financial Intimacy," as she unravels the emotional and psychological forces shaping our financial lives. In this episode, Jacquette emphasizes that financial success transcends the numbers in your wallet, offering insights into the intricate dance of emotions and finance. She challenges the conventional view that financial success is merely about bank balances, diving into financial intimacy and resilience. We explore the nuances of feeling 'broke' versus 'broken,' the courage to embrace financial risks, and the development of a healthy money mindset. Learn how spending habits reflect life's priorities and how to savor life's pleasures without compromising financial objectives. Jacquette provides thought-provoking wisdom and practical advice for achieving financial clarity and success.
📺 You can watch this episode on Moses The Mentor's YouTube page and don't forget to subscribe: https://youtu.be/IWyUZyVZ9lo
🎯Connect with Jacquette Timmons @jacquettemtimmons on Instagram and visit her website jacquettetimmons.com
🎯Connect with Moses The Mentor: https://mtr.bio/moses-the-mentor
☕If you value my content consider buying me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mosesthementor
🎯Support Money Focused Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2261865/support
🔔Subscribe to my channel for Real Estate & Personal Finance tips https://www.youtube.com/@mosesthementor?sub_confirmation=1
Explore emotional economics with Jacquette Timmons, Financial Behaviorist and author of "Financial Intimacy," as she unravels the emotional and psychological forces shaping our financial lives. In this episode, Jacquette emphasizes that financial success transcends the numbers in your wallet, offering insights into the intricate dance of emotions and finance. She challenges the conventional view that financial success is merely about bank balances, diving into financial intimacy and resilience. We explore the nuances of feeling 'broke' versus 'broken,' the courage to embrace financial risks, and the development of a healthy money mindset. Learn how spending habits reflect life's priorities and how to savor life's pleasures without compromising financial objectives. Jacquette provides thought-provoking wisdom and practical advice for achieving financial clarity and success.
📺 You can watch this episode on Moses The Mentor's YouTube page and don't forget to subscribe: https://youtu.be/IWyUZyVZ9lo
🎯Connect with Jacquette Timmons @jacquettemtimmons on Instagram and visit her website jacquettetimmons.com
🎯Connect with Moses The Mentor: https://mtr.bio/moses-the-mentor
☕If you value my content consider buying me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mosesthementor
🎯Support Money Focused Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2261865/support
🔔Subscribe to my channel for Real Estate & Personal Finance tips https://www.youtube.com/@mosesthementor?sub_confirmation=1
Welcome back to the money focus podcast. I'm your host, moses the mentor, and in this episode I'm super excited because I get a chance to welcome Jacquet Timmons to the show. She's a financial behaviorist and she combines her expertise with money management and a deep understanding of personal behavior. So she's also the author of financial intimacy and is absolutely passionate about the emotional aspects of financial planning. She's here to share her unique insights on the human side of money. So let's get started. Thank you so much for joining the money focus podcast. I really appreciate your time and what I always like to do to start the show is to have my guests just kind of walk through their professional journey, their career journey and ultimately, how they started their business. So the floor is yours. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for having me. I've been at this for a bit of time. I like to tease and say I look younger than I actually am. But I've been in, you know, the financial services industry for just a tad bit more than three decades and I've only worked in financial services and I got my start at a you know what was considered a traditional merchant merchant bank, which is a bank that only deals with institutional clients or high net worth individuals.
Speaker 2:And what got me interested in the behavioral side of money is watching up close and personal the stock market crash of 1987 and seeing how there was just this one event but drastically different reactions to it. There were some people that were very calm and others that were not so calm, you know, based on how much money they lost for themselves or and or for their clients. So that was the first seed that got me interested in behavioral finance and behavioral economics. So I call myself a financial behaviorist and some people are like, oh well, that's a new term, but the discipline of it is not new, it's been around for many, many years. But the second seed that really kind of was the amplifier, if you will, of me beginning to be even more curious about this is the time that I spent in the private bank on a team managing money for high net worth individuals and really just coming to understand that, while those clients had many more zeros and commas behind those zeros than my family, they had the same questions and challenges that my mother did. You know she worked for Social Security and at her you know grade level in the federal government. We were fine, we weren't poor, we weren't working poor, but we also were not rich or wealthy. And yet I just kind of saw some parallels between the questions and the challenges and the fact that they just simply had more resources and more people to tap into. So that was the other thing that kind of amplified it.
Speaker 2:And I went to school to do my MBA in finance and then shortly, probably about three and a half years after that, went out on my own and, you know, started off with an investment advisory firm that was relatively a investment advisory firm that was registered with the SEC, and even then realized that I wanted to spend more of my time talking to my clients about why their portfolio performed the way that it did not.
Speaker 2:Just, oh, your portfolio performed in ABC way, and so at some point. You know, my business expanded from just doing investment management to also coaching and then also speaking, or actually speaking came first, and then eventually I got out of the investment management business altogether and today my business looks like there's a speaking arm where I'm a four higher speaker, typically for Amlaw, 200 companies or firms, financial services companies and conferences, and then I also do one-on-one coaching, mostly with entrepreneurs and small business owners, and the two key messages that I'm looking to get across to people is one financial success doesn't start in your wallet. And two, that I really want people to be and to feel successful, profitable and not broke not broke financially, not broke creatively and not broke energetically.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that break. Now Sound like you were going into the direction of my next question. As far as your focus on emotional and the human aspects of financial planning, can you touch on that a little bit more?
Speaker 2:Sure, you know the traditional approach to money, especially in the personal finance space, is if you just follow the rules, you will be financially successful.
Speaker 2:But what about those people who do follow the rules and they don't experience the financial success that they want? Or what about those people who don't follow the rules and they are financially successful? And so you know, part of my point in the conversation around financial success not starting in your wallet is just the simple reality that Following the rules doesn't take into account any of the nuances that anyone could have on an individual basis. It doesn't take into account any of the systemic factors that can influence someone's experience with managing their money and building wealth. And so I don't know if that answers your question, but to me it is really getting folks to understand that the numbers matter and we have to respect the numbers. Just don't lead first with the numbers. Lead first with understanding more about your relationship with money, and, just like any relationship that you have a lot of, what drives that and the quality of that is the psychological and the emotional aspects that you were bringing to that relationship.
Speaker 1:Definitely answers the question. Sounds like that's a differentiator in your approach from traditional financial planning. Is there any other components to the way you actually coach that you can talk about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that is the biggest one, which is that I don't do financial planning. I mean I could talk to someone about their goals and how to approach their money in terms of being in service to those goals. I can help someone evaluate their portfolio, especially with their 401k, but I do make very clear that I'm not acting as a financial advisor. Whether or not you have enough insurance coverage, whether or not if you're in a couple, whether or not your portfolio structure in terms of your 401k complements the others, again, I can tell you if I think that, looking at it, but I'm not there to put together that game plan and then also be responsible for its implementation. So that's the key thing Like I'm not acting in a role as someone's financial advisor or planner.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this what does success look like when you have a client of yours and they come into you and maybe in distress, but what does success look like at the end of your experiences with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, just like with money, there is no monolithic answer to that question, right? Everybody's number in terms of enough is different. But here's how I want to answer that To me, when I mentioned earlier successful, profitable and not broke. To me, successful means that you are meeting your goals and you have what you want and you've been able to achieve that and go through the process of getting from point A to point B on your own terms. So if I'm able to help client A do it in the way that works for them, that's successful and that very well may be different than client B. So that's the successful part. The profitable part is helping people to define what their enough is. What is enough money, what is enough time, what is enough space. So, again, if I'm able to help them create a business, or if they work in house somewhere to create a lifestyle that allows them to experience that, I would count that as successful. And then, similarly, when it comes to the not broke part again I said not broke financially and creatively and energetically.
Speaker 2:In this industry there tends to be a message that if you were not successful, that you are broken, and what I'm trying to get people to understand is that there's a difference between being broke and being broken. Even if your circumstances are not like the way you want them to be, or maybe even the way they simply need to be, that doesn't mean that you are broken. So it's first. Let's dispel this myth around your brokenness, if you will. But if you are in a position where you feel full financially, creatively and energetically, then you're able to do the things that you want to do.
Speaker 2:And for my clients that own a business, I say to them that puts you in a situation where you can be magnetic in terms of getting your mission and your message out. If you work in house somewhere, it can be in terms of attracting opportunities. Resiliency is a part of that, I think, because money and life none of that is a straight line that goes to the right. It's up and down. So how do you have the ability to navigate the flows and the challenges that you are inevitably going to encounter? And then I think it also speaks to the boldness that you need, the boldness that you need to go after and do the things that you need to do and to take the risks that you need to take, albeit hopefully calculated, but still you got to take some risk, and I also think it's important to not think of risks simply through the lens of what you can lose, but to also consider risk through the lens of the opportunity cost of what you may lose out on if you don't do something.
Speaker 1:Appreciate the break man. I think that all makes sense.
Speaker 2:I think that all makes more sense.
Speaker 1:No, no, definitely wasn't, definitely wasn't, and it all makes sense. I mean, you're such an intelligent woman and you have this bestselling book called Financial Intimacy, so I want to ship gears and talk a little bit about that. So in your book, you explore the connection between money and relationships. So what are some of the key takeaways that couples can have based off of that?
Speaker 2:Well, let me first start with what inspired the book, and it was the recognition that people who share some of the most intimate aspects of their lives together are kind of blind when it comes to the financial aspects of their partner's lives. And so, you know, the first thing that happened was a really, really dear friend of mine who was like the brother I did not have. He passed away and suddenly and he was married to my college roommate and you know up and up brother, so you know nothing on the bad side, but there was a lot that she didn't know about his finances because they didn't commingle things, and I saw how that can have an impact on just moving forward. That was one thing. The second was another friend whose father passed away, and that was when her mother discovered that they were five hundred thousand dollars in debt and that was not their mortgage. And then I was working one on one with the client who won paper the epitome of financial success Wharton MBA, working on Wall Street, high six figure salary, living with her boyfriend, and they were fighting all the time about money. They're married now. They're doing well. You know, they worked it out and I am grateful for the fact that I played a role in that. But in each of those cases here we had really smart, highly educated women rocking it out in their careers, and yet there were definitely things that were not talked about during pillow talk time, where they did not have insight about what was going on with money and their partner's lives, or they didn't realize the ways in which they might be projecting their own stuff onto their relationship. So in that last example, one of the reasons why they were fighting so much is because she didn't want to end up like her parents and how she saw her mother and her father interact with money and she didn't realize that she was picking those fights because of what she wanted to avoid. And so once we identified that, we were able to work that out.
Speaker 2:Skipping forward to something that happened post the book was another client where, when they lived together, they split everything 50-50 and there were no issues around money, if you will. But once they got married, the expectation changed and she thought that they would then do it proportionately, not 50-50. And he was like, well, why would we change anything? This worked fine all the years that we've lived together, just because we got married. This would change. So I think there is this. There is an embedded assumption around I know what I want money to do for me and do for us and I'm going to assume that you want that too, but there's no conversation around that and there's no acknowledgement of having perhaps different values, different behaviors, different expectations of what you want money to do for you and just simply having a conversation around that.
Speaker 1:It could be a lot of unspoken expectations.
Speaker 2:A lot of unspoken expectations.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes indeed, and I like that you gave real examples that these are people that are super successful from career aspect. These are not people that are working minimum wage or anything like that and they're still having those money challenges, because oftentimes it's like blanketed that if you make a lot of money, those challenges don't come with it, but that clearly is not the case in your experience.
Speaker 2:It isn't, and I think that is one of the things that I have always wanted to get across as well is chipping away at some of the promotion, if you will around financial literacy, which, as you probably know from our earlier conversation, I really dislike that term.
Speaker 1:No, I was going to ask you about that, but since you rolled into it, we can talk about that.
Speaker 2:And I really dislike that term because, for those that don't know the history, it comes out of the Community Reinvestment Act.
Speaker 2:Community Reinvestment Act to enunciate well, and that was the requirement where banks that went into certain neighborhoods in order to get your branch, you know, to get the approval for your branch to be there, you had to do something that was supportive of the neighborhood that you were opening this branch.
Speaker 2:So they were like oh, we'll do financial literacy, we'll help people open checking accounts and savings accounts and we'll teach them how to manage their money. And my whole thing is they probably know how to manage their money better than a lot of folks, because if they miscalculate and they are off $5, $10, that can have a huge impact on them versus somebody else for whom $5, $10 or $500, $10,000, it's a blip, it's like no big deal. So part of my issue with financial literacy is it has this notion that only a certain block of people need help with improving their financial knowledge, improving their financial self-awareness and improving their financial habits, and that's just not true. Everybody along the spectrum of income and wealth. There is something that you can do and that probably is needed for you to improve upon. So box over.
Speaker 1:I get it. I appreciate you breaking that down. I mean, it's definitely sounds like it's rooted in a very discriminatory way. I me personally just you know full transparency. I have been using financial literacy a lot because I'm an advocate for just people learning financial concepts to help them. You know better their financial life, but some of the education that you provided to me the last conversation, yeah, I can see why you know you can have that stance. So what alternatives do you suggest that people save?
Speaker 2:You know, the hard thing is that I don't have any I don't think good alternatives.
Speaker 2:You know financial knowledge, financial education, doesn't sound all that sexy, but that's what you're doing, and so you know, if you think about what you have behind, you know financial literacy, all of that is necessary. But I think the label is the thing that doesn't allow for some people to raise their hand and say, yes, I want that, or yes, I need that. I mean because, think about it, if you want to go and learn another language, whether it's Spanish, french, japanese, german, whatever the language is you don't go and say I want to learn French literacy. You say I want to learn how to speak French or whatever the other language is. And so why don't we have that same approach to money? And I think it is to create this divide that says only this block of people need financial literacy and these other folks are okay. And so the folks that are over here that actually could benefit from the knowledge that you are sharing and the concepts that you are sharing, don't raise their hand to say, hey, can I get some of that too?
Speaker 1:But you do agree Kareemia, if I'm wrong that there is a need for people to get more exposure to financial information, whatever way you want to label it.
Speaker 2:So I believe that there is a need for people to have more exposure to financial information, but I think even more than that is financial insight. You can Google a question about money and you will get a ton of answers. Information is not what people are lacking. What people are lacking is the ability to look at that information and have the insight to figure out. How does this apply in my particular situation? How do I have the discernment to know if the information that I got on page one is better for me than the information that's on page five when I get all of the results from Google? So information is important. Knowing the techniques, yes. Knowing if you want to save the mechanics of it, yes. But as important, or I would say even more important, is the ability to change that into insight. That gives you that financial self-awareness so that, no matter how the information may or may not change, you can still benefit from it.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you breaking that down. Yeah, that was, that was going to be a topic of discussion and hopefully people can engage with that. I know a lot of people throw that around so I was looking forward to hearing your take. So appreciate that. Let's go back to the prior question because you know again, you have a book on it and it's very important because people are married. I know there can be tough conversations about money and how to you know manage money in different ways to look at it. It's a key driver to a lot of people you know going the divorce route or couples just breaking up. So what are some key takeaways that you can tell the audience about regarding financial intimacy?
Speaker 2:So, you know, there is that stat that says that money is, you know, one of the top five reasons that couples either break up or get a divorce and I would say that it's not so much money is that, it's the inability to talk about money, because when we think about it, money just evokes so many different perceptions and it means so many different things to people, and it taps into your identity, your identity as a person, your identity as you know, someone who's quote unquote doing it right and successful.
Speaker 2:It reveals your beliefs, it reveals your expectations, it reveals your level of discipline, your vision, and so all of that can be vulnerable when either things are not the way you want them to be, need them to be, or they are in stark contrast to a person that you are intimately connected to. And so to me, it's not so much about are the numbers adding up as it is, it's how I feel about the numbers, how I think about them, how I approach them, how does that either make you and I compatible or create some stress? And if it creates some conflict and stress, how do we then talk about it? And when we have something like money that is shrouded in so much guilt and shame. It can make it difficult for people to expose themselves and to also be open enough when someone exposes themselves and they don't actually like what the other person is sharing.
Speaker 1:So, when you pretty much uncover that, what are some next steps that you advise?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing is to not expect either of you to be perfect A, b, to provide some grace both to yourself and to the other person, and to be willing to listen, like to just listen, make no comments, perhaps, just be the listener and take turns doing that, and then really just be an agreement around whether or not you want there to be a common solution when you get on the other side Now, I'm saying all of this, and I'm saying all of this with the hope and the hope and the understanding that neither person is doing something nefarious and they're not committing any sort of financial infidelity Then that's a whole different kind of conversation.
Speaker 2:But if it is just a matter of you are a spender and I'm a saver, or vice versa, and that's creating conflict, or I want to live in this neighborhood, but the house costs this much, and you want to live in this neighborhood because you think the houses are cheaper, and we just can't come to agreement. Those are different kinds of conversations and negotiations, because at the end of the day, that's what you're always navigating, right, you're navigating and negotiating. How do we create a family vision that supports, perhaps, your individual visions? Because, look, you don't all of a sudden scrap the thoughts and the dreams that you had as an individual simply because you are now paired with someone else. It becomes a thing where you have perhaps your vision, your vision, our vision, and sometimes, when there is a disconnect between those, you've got to work that out. But, just like with anything, it is about communication and the degree to which you are willing and open to compromising, which means giving and taking, which is all about negotiating.
Speaker 1:When you actually work as you said you're a behavioralist right and I love that title when you work with your clients, what are some common beliefs or just behaviors that you really have to address, Like what's something that really comes up a lot that you could talk through?
Speaker 2:Well, one is some people don't like to actually look at their numbers, and that's an important thing to do. Now, I am not someone who suggests that people track their money for the purposes of creating a budget, because I'm not so much a budget person. I am someone who is a huge advocate for budgeting. Difference subtle, yes, but significant. But a lot of people don't like to confront what are their numbers telling them, so they have no clue. So one of the things is people don't track, so therefore they don't have any data that will allow them to see their patterns of behavior when it comes to money. And the thing that I always say to people is the purpose of tracking is so that you can collect the data and then you've got something to look at, so that you can see patterns, because you cannot interrupt a pattern that you don't notice. So it's not about making yourself feel bad about what information you are gleaning from what you've gathered, but to really have as much of an objective view as possible so that you can say well, what is this telling me and how does what this is telling me differ from what I was expecting or what I thought? So that would be. The first thing is that people don't track. Connected to that is people don't pay attention. And here's what I mean by that. This is going back a little ways, but I think it's a great example.
Speaker 2:For those that are not familiar with this story, just Google target father, teenage daughter. This is going probably back 15 years ago or so. The short of it is target is how a father learned that his teenage daughter was pregnant. How? Because she was using a card that was tied to their address, buying prenatal stuff. And the algorithms and the data scientists at Target were like oh, somebody's expecting a baby, let's send them flyers with all the baby stuff. And he went to their local target and was like will you stop sending us this? Nobody in my household is expecting a baby. Well, then, three months later, he goes back to the target and he's like well, turns out, my teenage daughter is pregnant. But then the question became how did you know?
Speaker 2:And that is where data scientists and the algorithms that they come in, you know, come up with or use comes into play.
Speaker 2:And you may not be a data scientist and you may not know the algorithms and all that stuff that they're using, but what that proves is that the big block stores.
Speaker 2:The financial institutions with which we do business the financial institutions with which we do not do business tend to know more about us and what we are doing or are not doing with our money than we do, and they use that information to project what is this? What's going on in this person's life, what might their goals be? And we should be able to look at our statements and not just say here's the bottom line number oh yeah, that transaction is mine, there's no fraud. But we should be able to look at that as well and ask ourselves, if I was looking at this statement and I didn't have my name and address on that, what assumptions would I make about what's going on in that person's life right now and what might be going on in the future? So that's connected, but there are also two very different things, and I think those are really two key things that people miss not tracking and not paying attention.
Speaker 1:If you look at your bank statement, you probably would just like put your hands you know your face deep in your hands and just shake your head, because you'll see all the things and crap that you buy you know all the fast food, all the unnecessary clothes, just a whole lot of things. So when you put eyes on it and let the data actually speak to you, like you said, don't let your own data be a tool for another company or a business so they can get more money out of you, but let your data actually, you know, help you create better habits and better connectedness with your finances and your household by just simply knowing what you're spending your money on just makes a whole lot more sense.
Speaker 2:And do it again. I'm going to use this word once more. Do it with some grace, because it's not about judging yourself, it's not about shaming yourself, but it is about oh this is what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing, this is what I'm spending my money on, and I also, you know, I just need to say this I am not the person that's going to tell you to don't enjoy that $7 latte. I'm not that person. I'm going to actually tell you to enjoy that $7 latte. But if that $7 latte is preventing you from reaching a goal, like perhaps getting out of debt, then maybe the question needs to be where else? And that, especially if that latte is that small thing that brings you a great deal of joy, then the question to me becomes where else can perhaps you cut back? And or where might you also need to bring some money in? Because I find that so often the conversation when it comes to people getting out of debt is cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Well, at some point there's only but so much you can cut. And also, at the end of the day, that $7 latte is not going to make that big of a dent, especially if you're not.
Speaker 2:Also, considering what can you do to bring more money in?
Speaker 1:I talk about that a lot. I mean because people love saying, hey, you know, you got all these streaming services. Yeah, they can add up. Don't get me wrong. Every dollar can count. But really, when you're looking at making a real big impact to your finances, it's not going to be on coffee and Disney Plus, it's really going to be on some bigger ticket items like housing, your car, entertainment, things like that. That way you can have some really direct conversations with yourself. Or, if you're married, you can talk with each other and just figure out, you know, what can we do to get in front of that? I think most ratios people will say, or companies will say, 30% of your gross income can be your housing costs and I personally think that's a disaster, because why are we measuring it? Based on my gross?
Speaker 2:Right, it should be your net.
Speaker 1:It should be your net. So I mean 30% of your gross might be 40, 45% of your net, you know, and that's tied up to your housing. Yeah, you know, I just think those are the type of things that we have to get in front of and make those short term sacrifices for long term gain. And again, that's going to help you a whole lot more than you know. A $7 coffee.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think what you are tapping into is that's a harder choice and that's a harder conversation. Cutting the $7 latte or the streaming service. That's a simple choice and that doesn't require a conversation. It doesn't require well, it doesn't require a conversation, but more important is that it doesn't require introspection. It doesn't require you confronting how much do you want something else, Like that vision that you really want to have come to fruition, how much do you want that and are you willing to do this now in order to have that? And that this now requires you to make a choice that is a lot bigger in terms of impact than that smaller thing like the coffee or the streaming service.
Speaker 1:How can people cultivate a healthier relationship with money? What's some advice you have about that?
Speaker 2:Well, one is think of it in the same vein as you think of any other important relationship that you have in your life. If you're married, that's an important relationship. If you have children, that's an important relationship. Your parents, your other family members, your friends that are really important to you, you do things to nurture those relationships. Same is true with money.
Speaker 2:You can't just ignore it. You can't ignore it. You can't only think about it when there's a big transaction or a decision to be made. You can't only utilize it as a utility tool, even though that's what it is. You have to respect it. And so one of the things is to really reframe.
Speaker 2:If you don't think of yourself as having a relationship with money, reframe it to understanding that, yes, you do. And if you do embrace that you have a relationship with money, then ask yourself are you treating it with the same respect that you would any other important relationship that you have in your life? So that would be the first thing. I think the second thing would be to and I guess maybe this is an extension of it to give it your attention. Right, then. That means like setting aside time, whether that's weekly or monthly, to check in with yourself, and I think of it as money is always giving you feedback. It is always telling you whether or not the choices you are making are aligning with what you need in the moment and with what you need in the future. And so are you spending enough time with it to hear that feedback and then adjust your actions and your game plan accordingly?
Speaker 1:Appreciate that. There's a lot of aspiring authors that I connect with and they, for the most part, self-publish, so I wanted to, before I let you go, I definitely wanted to ask you about publishing a book, because you chose a traditional route to publish your book. So what actually drove that decision? And then, if you can expand a little bit on some of the pros and cons of self-publishing versus traditional publishing?
Speaker 2:So I think the thing to keep in mind is time, timing and time, and what I mean by the difference between the two is from a timing standpoint and our moment in time, where things are very different. Now in 2024, as you and I are having this conversation, then in 2000 and say seven, when I signed my book deal. So I signed my book deal in 2007. My due date was 2008. My book came out 2009. Yeah, 2009. Thank you.
Speaker 2:A couple of things. I'm talking about money. I'm talking about the intersection of love and money, which, at the time, was not a common intersection to have discussed in a mass market conversation that wasn't religious based. So it's not that there weren't books out there about love and money, but those that were out there focused on it from a religious standpoint, and my book is agnostic in that regard. And so for me there was it wasn't even a question to self publish because of the topic, because of who I am a black woman and because I don't have any evidentiary proof of this. It's all anecdotal, but I do not think that my very first interview on my book on CNN would have happened if I had self published. I just don't think that media outlets, especially back then, needed the validation that comes from a traditional publisher, that this person has something of note to say and we should pay attention and listen to. So that is time and timing, because back then that was the environment, that was the only option.
Speaker 2:Fast forward now to 2024, the publishing industry looks very, very different. People can self publish a book and some people now do that and that is really something that they use on the back end for speaking. So they don't need the affirmation or validation of the traditional public media landscape to say, hey, this person has something worthy to say. So there's that. And then now there's also a lot of folks that are doing hybrid, where they are aligning with a publishing house. That is part self publishing but part getting support that you would get from a publisher, because what you get from a publisher is a little bit of an advance.
Speaker 2:I didn't get that much of an advance, but you do get a little bit of an advance and you do get some marketing support in the beginning. So I don't know if that fully answers your question, but I think time and timing in maybe a better way is just the environment you really, I think plays a key role and whether or not you do traditional self or a hybrid. And then I also think it depends on what's the role of that book in your business Like for me, the role of the book was to have a published book and to have something out there. It wasn't to use it so much. As you know, I have a speaking gig and let me sell these in the back of the room. Yes, you want that, but it wasn't like that was a part of my financial business model.
Speaker 1:That's when I'm running into from you know people that I might interview or just encounter that they have the book to go along with their speaking engagements. So you know you speak and, like you said, you know they bring their books on the road with them and it's very lucrative. I mean because they go out of their great speaker. People want to support them. They buy books on the way out, so it works out perfect.
Speaker 2:The self publishing industry has changed a lot too, since you know the early odds, if you will, because there are times when you can't tell that a book was self published. Back then you could easily tell when a book was self published. The quality of the book cover, like just all kinds of things you know, screamed oh, this was self-published. So that's changed a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I was going to ask, like you know, if you were well, when you or you can expand on that if you plan on writing another book, would you go the route today of self publishing or would you like to still tap into a traditional publisher?
Speaker 2:I would like to do the latter still tap into a traditional publisher, and also my current publisher has the first right of refusal. So there's that. But yeah, I would you know. For all of its flaws, I do think that there is some merit to going the traditional route, especially given what my content will always be about, which will always be an intersection of something and money. So I just think it works well for me to go that route. If I change my mind I'll let you know, but right now, that's that's the plan.
Speaker 1:Let's close it out. What final thoughts or advice do you have for the audience, and also make sure to drop your website and how we can reach you on social media as well.
Speaker 2:You know, the thought that I always want to leave people with is the reminder, again, that financial success doesn't start in your wallet, because there are a whole bunch of choices that you have to make before the money either literally is in your wallet or figuratively is because of you know, the credit that you have available to you and your credit cards, or the balances that you see on your investment statements.
Speaker 2:So that would be the you know, I think, a key message and alongside that is what I mentioned earlier in terms of me wanting people to be and to feel successful, profitable and not broke, and I think the thing that I would add is that you can have all of that and you don't have to sell your soul to make it happen, like you don't have to dismiss your soul to make that happen. So those would be the like, the two parting messages, if you will, and in terms of how people can connect with me, my website is. I'm really active on Instagram, so come and find me over there and, you know, if you want to have a better understanding of the current relationship that you have with money and get some ideas on how you can close the gap between it and where you want it to be. You can download the financial wheel framework and that'll help.
Speaker 1:Perfect, and I'll make sure to include all of your contact information in the show notes. So I just want to thank you so much for joining the show and we're going to close out Well.
Speaker 2:thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you again for coming on the show and sharing your profound insights on money and behavior. Your expertise is truly invaluable to our listeners and I just really want to say thank you and wish you the best and everything that you do to my listeners. Before you go, please take a moment and visit Moses the mentorcom for more empowering financial content and, at the same time, head over to YouTube and subscribe to Moses the mentor. So again, appreciate you listening in and stay grinding Peace.