Protect Your Business: Trademarks, Copyrights & Contracts: with Kelli Jones

Protect your business with Kelli Jones as she delves into the complexities of intellectual property law, offering vital insights for small business owners. Transitioning from courtroom litigation to virtual legal services. Kelli guides small businesses in protecting their brand and creative works through copyrights and trademarks. This episode explores the importance of choosing the right trademark classes and the risks of delayed registration, underlining the necessity of securing your business's intellectual foundation early. Additionally, Kelli addresses the essential role of contracts in business security and the impact of AI on legal services, providing practical advice to enhance your venture's legal standing. Join us for a comprehensive legal masterclass.

📺 You can watch this episode on Moses The Mentor's YouTube page and don't forget to subscribe: https://youtu.be/IWyUZyVZ9lo

🎯Connect with Kelli Jones @lawyerkelli_ on Instagram and visit her website lawyerkelli.com

🎯Connect with Moses The Mentor: https://mtr.bio/moses-the-mentor

☕If you value my content consider buying me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mosesthementor

📢Support Money Focused Podcast for as low as $3 a month: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2261865/support

🔔Subscribe to my channel for Real Estate & Personal Finance tips https://www.youtube.com/@mosesthementor?sub_confirmation=1

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:24

Welcome to the Money Focus podcast. I'm your host, moses, the mentor. On this episode. I have a fantastic guest joining us, kelly Jones, who is the founder of lawyerkellycom. She's also a virtual lawyer specializing in serving entrepreneurs and small business owners, with the focus on contracts and trademarks. Her mission is to make legal matters more accessible and less daunting for business owners, ensuring that you protect your intellectual property and navigating legal complexities with confidence. Let's delve into the world of entrepreneurship and law with Kelly. All right, thank you so much, kelly, for joining the show. The first thing I'll always ask my guests is to walk us through their career journey and, ultimately, how they started their business. The floor is yours.

Speaker 2: 1:16

Sure, thanks so much for having me. I've been a lawyer now for just almost 10 years, it's crazy to say. I first started out working for a nonprofit and then went to another nonprofit. I was in that area for a while. Then I went to working for a private firm. That's where I pretty much went to court every day. We were doing a lot of things, but mainly representing medical providers, suing insurance companies for payment Not that fun, not that exciting. It was just a lot of court and a lot of commuting between the different courts. I was living in New York, so commuting between the boroughs and Long Island where our office was A lot of stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Then COVID hit in 2020 and courts were closed. We couldn't do that anymore. The business at the firm that I was at was slowing down since we couldn't go to court. First they cut our salaries. Then, in June of 2020, I ended up getting let go. When that happened, that's when I, within two weeks of that, decided to start my own business and do something completely different from what I was doing, because I also I didn't really like what I was doing. I didn't like going to court every day. I started interviewing at other jobs. Then I was like why go do something else that I'm also probably going to hate? Let me just start something on my own instead. I did that summer of 2020. I've been doing that on my own, working with entrepreneurs and working primarily through meeting people online since then.

Speaker 1: 2:58

This was your first taste of entrepreneurship.

Speaker 2: 3:01

Yes, well, I was part-time in the fitness coaching realm. I was teaching a couple of studios here and there and debating if I was going to do something more with that or not. I was a little bit in that, but then complete pivot from fitness to legal.

Speaker 1: 3:24

How did you land on educating entrepreneurs being your lane versus where you were working in that, where you were suing those medical providers and stuff like that? How did you land on that?

Speaker 2: 3:37

I had taken a couple different intellectual property classes in law school, but then hadn't really done much with it after law school. At the time, when I was part-time doing all my fitness stuff, I was using Instagram to connect with other people in the fitness realm A lot of those people. Either they stayed and became an online fitness coach or something like that, or they turned to being an influencer or social media coaching or social media management. I started seeing their online business as being built. While I was still working at the firm, I saw this and saw they're having issues with clients or brand protection and things like that. Then, at the same time, that summer of 2020, I saw a couple of other lawyers that were using Instagram and Facebook and stuff to market and doing this, helping business owners. I was like, oh my God, I could do that too. I already see that there's a need for it because I was already in that fitness world with all these other entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1: 4:51

It's definitely a need for sure. How do you educate your clients on the importance of legal protection for their business? What's your approach?

Speaker 2: 5:03

Yeah, it really depends on what type of business they have and what they're planning to do with it. I always say legal isn't really a one-size-fits-all approach. That's why I typically recommend for business owners to speak with a lawyer on a consultation to help you assess what type of legal priorities you need and build a roadmap of what things you need. If you are launching a product line, your legal steps of what you should do first and then later on is going to look different than if you're launching a online copywriting business. Those will also be different if you're launching a podcast or a brick and mortar. I really go based on what you're doing and that's when we decide between business entities and trademarks copyright contracts. What do you need and what order do you need these things in?

Speaker 1: 5:57

A lot of times you hear like copyright and trademark I guess from a non-lawyer conversation, right, it seems like it's synonymous Like oh, I got a trademark, I got a copyright. Can you kind of high level or make it very simple to understand what the difference is for a copyright and a trademark?

Speaker 2: 6:20

Yes, so copyright is ultimately something that is like a creation, so you created like a book or a photograph, you took a photo, you posted a video or published the podcast episode. You hold the copyright to that because you are the one that created it. Whereas trademarks you want to think like brand, so overall brand, so it's something that you use as part of your brand to basically as like an identifier for your goods and services. So it could be your business name, your logo, a tagline, a podcast name, a product line name, anything like that. So that's the more like the name of something.

Speaker 1: 6:59

Full transparency. When I filed, like my trademark for a Moses to mentor or a money focused podcast, I did it on my own. It wasn't easy. It was a lot of steps. I'm sure as a legal professional you would suggest to get some legal help, like you know, kind of fill in that gap, like, can someone reasonably do it on their own or is there potentially some gaps that maybe I missed? Do you always recommend that a lawyer step in and help?

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah. So for some things I do say, like, if you are going to put in the time and effort, then maybe you can DIY it, like forming your LLC, for example. But when it comes to trademarks, I typically always say to use a lawyer. And this is because the first thing that we do comes before filing the trademark, we do a full search to really assess the risk level of your mark. And this means using, you know, algorithms, like we use systems and that look up algorithms to look up, like everything. Because basically the trademark office looks at two main things how similar is your name to someone else's?

Speaker 2: 8:02

So not just identical names can be an issue, but also anything that looks similar, sounds similar, even has a similar meaning, like if someone tries to register, you know, like, let's say, a course or something and one person has something similar, but it ends with like Academy and the other person has something, but it ends with school, though still, you know, academy versus school still have a similar meaning. So that could be an issue. And then the second thing is how similar in goods and services there are. So you know, things can exist if they're the same or similar, but they're for very different goods or services. Like one person is selling like jewelry and the other person has like a financial consulting firm, like those things can exist because people aren't generally going to be confused. You know they're not going to like go purchase jewelry when they meant to like hire financial consulting firm and like vice versa. But things that are more closer together, like maybe if it was jewelry and like hair accessories, that could potentially cause people to be confused.

Speaker 2: 9:02

So this is something that a lot of times is the main issue for why a trademark gets refused because it was too similar to another, either pending or registered trademark. And you know, if this was like 10 years ago it might be different. But with you know 500,000 plus to like even a million or more per year, new trademarks being filed, real state is kind of dwindling. So the chances that you are going to get refused for that are much higher than they used to be. So you know, working with an attorney can one, we can do that search to kind of see like the risk level and then we might be able to like help you get around it some way as well.

Speaker 1: 9:44

So if someone's trademark application is denied, should they just crop it and just try a new name, or should they just operate without the protection? What are like typical options that people may have when they deny it?

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yeah. So it really depends on the reason, because there are tons of reasons why they deny. But if it's because yours is too similar to you know someone else, I typically say there's like there's a bunch of options. When you know this happens with my clients. First we see, like do we have any arguments to try to differentiate your brand from theirs? Because you do, once you get a refusal you have three months to submit an argument to that. So it's not just like you're automatically denied, like you have a chance to try to overcome it.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And those two main things that you want to try to differentiate are the name and the goods and services. So you know, if you have some way to try to do that, you know, maybe the words leave up yours and the one-sided like leave very different impressions, you know, upon people. You know like once I had one that like one person was like very business focused and the other one had the word lazy in it and I was like well, my clients like it's really not too similar because theirs has like an entirely different impression when you add the word lazy to it versus like the other one being like very, like business like, and like that's different impressions. So then we were able to get through. So sometimes you can do that and then so it goes back to the examiner with that argument and then you know they might accept it, they might not. If they do then you move on, if they don't, then you know there are some options too. You can. You can just use it without the trademark if you can't get it through.

Speaker 2: 11:29

But that is really like a case by case basis, because sometimes you know the examiner no-transcript, it's up to them, it's subjective of like what they think is too similar. So you and I might not think it's too similar. So if it's like not you know, if it's maybe not that similar and you just think it's the examiner, then maybe you can keep using it and, like you know an attorney will look at it and be like I don't think you're like at risk of infringing, so, like you know, even though the trademark office thought it was similar. So I think it's safe to continue, whereas sometimes it might be so close that, like you can use it of course, do whatever you want, but you might be like at risk for infringement. So there's options there. And then also maybe reaching out to the brand if they are different enough and saying like hey, can we coexist together peacefully? And sometimes they're like absolutely not, stop using my name. And sometimes they're like sure, let's, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 12:25

And what? I submitted my trademark during pandemic time. So I know it was longer than normal, but what's typical turnaround time for your trademark from start to the decision? What's the typical time?

Speaker 2: 12:42

Yeah, so overall the average time right now is about 15 months. The first nine months is really just waiting for it to get assigned to someone, so it's just sitting there so long waiting period because government they're still very slow.

Speaker 1: 12:57

Yeah, that was roughly around the time that I waited for mine. So that's even, you know, pre-pandemic. It was around that timeframe as well.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Or pre-pandemic that like, whereas now it's like nine months of waiting period, it used to be around like three, and then it just kept getting longer and longer.

Speaker 1: 13:17

Another thing I learned that was interesting, that you know, I'm hoping, your expertise you can fill in the gap for the audience. You're not going to use the right terms, but when you fill out a trademark application, it's like these, these codes, that I guess you're trying to apply your trademark toward, like from a cup. You know, if you want to put your logo on a cup or shirt, do you want to use it for video, audio production? I thought it was interesting for someone. That's not what illegal background, that you know the trademark is not like hey, it's approved, that you can use it across the board. You know you have to, actually, you know, apply for approval for these. You know pockets and descriptors of services and goods. Can you talk about that?

Speaker 2: 14:07

Yeah, so those are the classes that you're going to apply in. And that's because, yeah, when you get a trademark, you don't have Blinkett ownership over that name for anything, but you have the exclusive ownership in connection with whatever goods or services you get the registration in. And this is really. It all goes back to confusion, because they don't want to give people like the monopoly to you, like Apple, you don't want to give them the monopoly to use that for absolutely anything in the world, even though maybe now they like can because they're so big. But you want it to be kind of more in a narrow scope. That way it leaves room for other brands as well. You know, like we have Dove deodorant and Dove chocolate, like both exist because they're different. So that's where you're also like figuring out, when you're applying, what you kind of like want to use it in or what you might want to use it in the future. So in like that kind of area.

Speaker 1: 15:30

No, that makes sense, especially the Dove chocolate, dove deodorant. Yeah, that's that hit home, am I okay? Yeah, I've got completely different companies and uses. I never even really thought about the name, to be honest with you. It was just. It was like, oh, it was deodorant and chocolate. What would you say? What are the risks of not trying to protect your business? You know, you know, break that down for us, for people who are just out here operating, and you know they might go viral or have something successful overnight, but they didn't take the time to do the protection measures on the front end. What are, what are some of the risks if you don't do that?

Speaker 2: 16:11

So one of the most difficult things is so, technically, in trademark law, the first person to use it has more rights to it. But the way that the USPTO works is it's the first person to file will get the end up getting the trademark. So that is tough because if someone else gets there before you and not just identical but even something similar, then when you do go to trademark you might not be able to, and then that might lead you to either have to rebrand or, you know, the other company could send you a cease and desist, something like that. Actually, like the Burger King, the chain that we see today was not the original one. They just happened to be the first one to file.

Speaker 2: 16:51

So they ended up stopping the actual original Burger King because they had the federal trademark, so they were able to the other one even though they had, they used it first, so they technically had the most rights. What ends up happening is you end up getting those right. You still have those rights, but it's narrowed to a small geographical area, so the original Burger King was knocked down to only be able to use it in a 20 mile radius. So for most businesses, especially nowadays that we operate like online and stuff. We don't want to be landlocked to a tiny little area like that. So that's where it becomes like really important to be the first one to file as well.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Definitely didn't know that, so appreciate you breaking that down. And what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you run in when it comes to, you know, protecting people's businesses?

Speaker 2: 17:45

I think probably a lot of times people thinking that, like they're coming up with a really unique name and you know, sometimes they are, but sometimes it still might be similar to someone else in some way. Because you know, sometimes people think like, oh, I'll add an F at the end or I'll add the in front of it or something to separate myself, but when it comes to trademarks, that doesn't create separation because the confusion can still be there. So I think one thing is like thinking about the legal side of things much earlier than maybe you think you need to, because it can sometimes prevent you from having to pay thousands, tens of thousands, even more than that down the line.

Speaker 1: 18:28

You know, because of that, like in the beginning, you know, I remember when I first started Moses the Mentor, like the first things that came to my mind was let me secure the domain name. So I went, moses the Mentor dot com was available so I was like, ok, great. Then I went I got an Instagram handle and I got a YouTube page. Are those good best practices to at least get out the gate first? Or do you just flat out tell people, hey, drop everything, get an attorney and really start the trademark process first?

Speaker 2: 19:04

So those are good things to do, like it's not wrong to do those, but I typically recommend, like in in addition to any of that, like doing a Google search and then also doing a basic research on the USPTO website.

Speaker 2: 19:18

It's not the same like more in depth one that will do, but it's a good starting point to find like major red flags, because you know you'll type in something and you'll see results and then you can click into those and see what goods and services they're registered for.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Because, again, if yours is completely different, then maybe it's OK to use, but if it's similar, then you might write away and be like, oh, let's go back to the drawing board and think of another name. Because, especially before you, if you're going to end up having to like spend a lot on a domain, like I just had someone come to me this week who came to me and she was like I just spent thousands and thousands on this domain and now, like I did a basic search and there's there's high risk marks in her way of getting that trademark, and she's like I wish I did this like one week earlier. So it really depends, but that she could have seen even just from the basic free trademark search. So I always recommend like that as like a very first starting point, and then if you're going to be putting a lot of money into it, then go to a lawyer.

Speaker 1: 20:21

You know, if it's maybe $20 on a domain, maybe the free search is OK for a bit, you know have you run into situations where you know someone was just so passionate about the name, where they like, hey, you know, can we explore, maybe Can you purchase a trademark from someone? Like, what's the process? If someone just really this is the name I wanted, what are some options that person can do?

Speaker 2: 20:47

Yeah, so you could. You know if you could like either sometimes you can work things out with the brand will like license it to you to use. You know, within whatever parameters they set, maybe you do just buy the business from them and their trademarks Also a reason why if someone wants to buy your business and you have the trademark, the value goes up a lot. But there, you know, there might be ways. Definitely bigger businesses are more able to do that, like I think I think Elon Musk bought Tesla the name, the name from someone else. Yeah, so you know that's possible.

Speaker 2: 21:24

And then sometimes I do have a couple of clients who are like I really like this name and it's not exactly infringing on someone, but we're like from a trademark standpoint it's probably going to be hard to get, but they're like I really like it, like let's just try. And there have been like one or two times where, no matter what, we couldn't get through but with one client, the other brand that was in our way ended up stopped, like they stopped using it, so we were able to get through. And then another client we ended up able, ended up going into like essentially a consent agreement, like I mentioned previously, like agreeing to coexist together. And you know, my client agreed not to like open up a store in their state and vice versa. So sometimes there's ways around it and sometimes there's might not be.

Speaker 1: 22:12

Once you mentioned Elon Musk and I was like I do remember a story with the Tesla situation, so it makes sense. You also help your clients with contracts, so can you talk to us about the importance of a contract and you know what are some best practices that you try to instill with your clients?

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah, so contracts. I always say like it's really to communicate everything that you know, everything that you have between you and the other party. It's really to protect you and even protect the other party as well. So it's not really just for, like a lot of people think, like oh, it's just for like my payment term and my refunds and like the scope of services, but really there's so much more that goes into it. So it's always just the best practice to like have one, and I typically recommend that you either had a lawyer drafted or used a like a lawyer drafted template, just because it's usually not what's in your contract that ends up like messing you up, but it's what was missing from it. So a lot of like ones I've seen on Google like they just don't have everything that you need and then when something happens which sometimes it does, especially the longer you're in business then it's usually a problem that happens because of something missing from the contract.

Speaker 1: 23:30

Yeah, in a contract can be, can be simple, or can. It doesn't have to be this long and exhaustive document, or, you know, like you know, a lot of times people might do something like at their home and say I owe you, and is that still legally a contract as well? As long as it's clearly outline what the Agreement is and someone signing it or do it doesn't have to be fully baked out long for it to be a legal document.

Speaker 2: 24:00

So it technically could be a contract as long as there were, you know, the two agreements and some type of it's called consideration. So you can't have one that's like I'm giving you this for free and you know like it can't be one-sided, like there has to be something going back. You know, like services on one side first money, on the other transferring, or you know Something like that, or service for service. So it can't just be like a gift essentially. But yeah, it can be short, the. The real problem with like shorter agreements is really like it might be fine, it's only if something goes wrong, then it's like well, it wasn't in the contract, so now we have to fight about what we meant to agree on, and so then it's like he said, she said, kind of a thing. So that's why contracts are unfortunately longer. Usually I try to make them as like short as possible that I'm like what can I cut out? But every word is so important sometimes.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Yes, it's, it's crazy because you know you you probably want it simple so you can understand it, but then if it's long and exhaustive, to protect you, you probably won't take the time to read it If you're unless you're a lawyer you know that's what you guys do. But so, yeah, I can see that the the fine balance there you got to find that perfect lift for yeah, like I definitely feel like I try to be less wordy and less like legal jargoni.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Then some other contracts. I've read that I'm like you don't need to say what you're saying and like 10 sentences, like you could have said that in two. So I try to do that at least, so it's not like 20 pages.

Speaker 1: 25:46

What are some of the trends that you see in, like virtual legal services in the future? Like do you think that Potentially, ai could have an impact in your business? Are you already using AI? Just kind of talk about the virtual legal Field and market. Is that something that you see some growth in on your end and other people that do what you do?

Speaker 2: 26:10

Yeah, I definitely think it can be helpful and I know a lot of people use it for different things that I'm definitely like trying to get into it. It's tough because you don't know with like everything AI, like you don't know what's true or not, like what's exactly accurate. So I think that's the tough part where I feel like it could definitely help.

Speaker 2: 26:32

I feel like it could definitely help, especially with like lawyers, with like contract drafting and stuff, because it could like help with Clauses that you know are in my library, that it's seen a million times and when I'm like drafting something. So I feel like it's definitely needed and it can definitely help in the future. And I do know some lawyers that are trying to like build things of like feeding it all this information, like Even all trademark law and stuff, to try to help with that. But I think it's definitely it's such early stages, so we don't really know the outcome yet and also the legal implications of what certain things mean. Like I do, I think I've heard two stories now of lawyers using AI to assist with briefs for court and then it ended up being found out after they turned it in that some of the case law that the AI cited Was completely made up, so that's.

Speaker 1: 27:28

That's how that's horrible to think. Okay. So I mean, hopefully sounds like maybe more from a productivity standpoint, maybe it can help with some of those you know, easy in and out type tasks but that that are more tedious. But let's stick to the official legal stuff, let's, let's, keep your, your human brain in touch with that. You know that that got your law degree, because AI just might not be mature enough to To give legal advice.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Yeah, I think it can get there, but maybe just not yet.

Speaker 1: 28:08

So what resources or like tools do you recommend to the average person as far as staying up to date with legal information or how they can protect their business?

Speaker 2: 28:19

Yeah. So I typically recommend like following a couple lawyers that like will talk about this kind of stuff. So you know I try to stay up to date on like if you know new laws are coming out that you have to comply with. There's something like there is one that just dropped in 2024 for people with an LLC that have to file their their corporate transparency Act documents this year if you already had the LLC prior to 2024. So I typically also like email my list like usually two times a month with like legal tips information. There's other ways to LLC. University is a website LLC university comm. It's a free site. That it's. I like it because you can click the drop down for your state and it gives you like step-by-step instructions and links to all the sites you need if you want like Look up anything about your LLC, or if you're moving states and you're like I don't know what to do, I need to like figure out this other state now. So that's like a really good free resource.

Speaker 1: 29:19

I've never heard of LLC university. I definitely check it out. In right now, you're primarily helping small businesses or are you helping larger businesses? Like what's your client makeup right now?

Speaker 2: 29:33

Yeah, they're pretty much all small business owners, either very small with a couple of employees or just, you know, on their own solo prenewers, essentially.

Speaker 1: 29:44

And you know. Just to close this out, what final advice and final thoughts do you have about protecting your business and how important it is? And it also just let the audience know how they can reach you for sure. Sure, the floor show.

Speaker 2: 30:00

So yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at lawyer kelly kelly with an I underscore, or my website is lawyer kellycom kelly with anI and you can.

Speaker 2: 30:11

I have my blog there. You could sign up for my email list there or you can just reach out to me through there as well If you have a question. Typically, my main piece of advice that I give people is speak with a lawyer sooner than later, even just a, you know a consultation. I offer, like it's called like pick my legal brain consultations. I say like do this as early as you can in your business, that way we can figure out what legal stuff you need. And you know, it doesn't have to be super overwhelming. I'm not going to tell you, oh, you need every single thing all right now, and spending thousands of dollars Like no, we're going to come up with a plan that makes sense for you. That way you at least have the information ahead of time, because even that can sometimes save you tons of money in the future. Because you knew like okay, I know, when I do this, then I need to get you know, come back for a trademark or something like that.

Speaker 1: 31:03

People always are looking at potentially the cost, but right. But if you don't do it right, you know the cost on the back end will far exceed what it could have been on the front end. So you know, definitely, definitely take the time. If you want to be a business person, you're going to have to have business expenses If you know it's just what it is.

Speaker 1: 31:23

So you can't just be the creative and say I have a business, this is a part of doing business. So take the time, get the legal help you need, get all the professional services that you need that ensure that your business is operating effectively today and prepare for tomorrow. So I really, really appreciate you, kelly, for coming on Shedding light on a lot of great resources for us, talking about your business and background, and I hope the audience makes sure to check you out. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Thank you, Kelly, for taking the time to share your valuable insights and expertise with us on this episode. Your dedication to empower and entrepreneurs through legal guidance is truly commendable. And to my listeners remember, visit lawyer kellycom to learn more about protecting your business legally and also sign up for Kelly's informative newsletters. And don't forget to hit up my website, MosesDementorcom, and also subscribe to MosesDementor on YouTube. So until next time, stay legally savvy and keep pursuing your entrepreneurial dreams, Peace.