Where Science Meets Spirit: Redefining Menopause with Dr. Michelle Cromwell

Today, we welcome Dr. Michelle Cromwell, founder of Sœur du Sol, for a deep and inspiring conversation about disrupting the menopause narrative around traditional and holistic medicine to support symptoms. 

Dr. Michelle is a former C-suite executive and vice president in higher education, with over 18 years of experience as a professor, administrator, and leader. She holds a PhD in conflict analysis and resolution and has taught research methods and sociology, bringing a multidisciplinary perspective to her work.

Dr. Michelle’s journey is marked by her transition from academia and corporate leadership to the healing arts. While building her career, she quietly practiced complementary medicine—becoming a yoga instructor, Reiki master teacher, and student of traditional herbalism, inspired by her father, an engineer and herbalist. Her calling became undeniable after a transformative experience in a course on cosmic herbalism and medical astrology, which led her to leave her executive role and fully embrace her identity as a healer.

She has since traveled to Benin, West Africa, to learn directly from traditional healers, deepening her expertise in West African herbs and holistic wellness. Dr. Michelle’s work now bridges science, spirit, and heritage healthcare, empowering women—especially those in high-achieving and leadership roles—to reclaim their autonomy and well-being during menopause.

Key Topics 

• Science Meets Spirit: Integrating medical astrology, traditional medicine, and scientific rigor in women’s health.
• West African Herbal Wisdom: Firsthand learning from traditional healers and developing proprietary herbal blends.
• Empowering Women: Addressing the challenges women face in menopause, especially in corporate environments.
• Herbal Tea: Dr. Michelle's unique herbal blend for brain fog and sleep, rooted in ancestral knowledge.
• Bridging Healthcare Gaps: Advocating for partnerships between conventional and complementary practitioners, and the deep mistrust as a result of the Women's Health Initiative that commenced in early 1990s and abrubtly halted in 2002. 

Connect with Dr. Michelle Cromwell

• Website: Sœur du Sol

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Transcript

What I want women to really feel empowered to do is to understand that your journey is your journey. Your needs are your needs. Your interests, your interests. And if you want to find a natural solution, do your research and find a natural solution. And I wouldn't just say evidence-based, but that has the data to support it. some of the natural solutions out there are using some of  the usual suspects like the black cohosh. So, people need to be aware of these things and find. I wanna say, a brand or find a person that is knowledgeable, that can really guide you away from inertia to do something.

Because doing nothing is not an option. They have to do something, and that's one of my concerns. That by women doing nothing, you know, 5, 10, 15 years down the road, they're gonna have some serious chronic diseases that is gonna impact their lives in ways that they haven't imagined.

That was an amazing quote from my next guest, Dr. Michelle Cromwell, and in this episode, we are spilling the T, literally and figuratively.

 Dr. Michelle Cromwell has a journey to share with us and the secret. A secret to leaving a corporate job, a high paying, successful corporate job in which she held a very high position.

She will share the secret on how a woman comes to this place in her life to follow her soul path, her journey, her purpose, and to step into Something that is bolder than what a position or a salary could ever offer. And if you're in midlife transition where you're contemplating whether you should step into something bold and brave, you have to listen to Dr.

Michelle's story, her company is called Sœur du Sol, Sisters of the Soil, 

You will learn so much more about this and just why exactly did Dr. Michelle leave an 18 year career holding a C-suite executive position to blend teas and other herbal remedies? She will share that too, as well as why we need women empowered and supported in their menopause experience, particularly women who are in leadership roles or still in the workplace.

 And let's face it, many career women will experience menopause because, eh, perimenopause begins anywhere as early as 35, and you can experience menopause symptoms well into your sixties, Dr.

Michelle is a woman on a mission. Her motto is to blend the science with the spirit. Take conventional wisdom with Ancient West African wisdom. 

combine it and deliver a modern day woman's approach to addressing menopause symptoms that does take into consideration the whole person that we are, body, mind, and spirit. 

But before we begin, here's something you need to know about Dr. Michelle Cromwell.

Dr. Michelle hails from Chandler, Arizona, and as I mentioned, transitioned out of an 18 year career in higher education to create her business, and she now serves as a high performance and wellbeing strategist for women in their boss, babe phase. Ah, I love that.

 Among some of the many ventures that her business is up to, she's creating Pour Soeur, a tea and a wearable patch with a time-released West African Herb for high achieving women experiencing mental fog with menopause. Not only that, she has partnered with a group of herbalist traditional healers and university researchers from West Africa to use powerful herbal remedies to help boost wellbeing and peak performance, Dr. Michelle holds a PhD in conflict analysis and resolution from Nova Southeastern University in Florida with a specialty in ethnic conflict. 

And believe it or not, there is a role to play when working with women and the workplaces for menopause education and hormonal health support. Her website is so and you can find her on LinkedIn as well as on Instagram at The Dr. Michelle. All those links will be in the show notes.

Please join me in welcoming Dr. Michelle to the Menopause Disruptor Podcast.

Welcome Dr. Michelle from Chandler, Arizona. 

I am so happy to be here.

This is gonna be an interesting topic ' cause you use a mantra or a phrase that I have often used before. Yours is where science and spirit intersect. And I've often said that managing menopause or transitioning through menopause is where science and spirituality intersect.

So, I feel we're on common ground, I'm equally drawn to another common ground, and that is that you worked in a corporate environment for several years, as did I, but you made a huge transition after 18 year career in higher education, most recently with a C-Suite executive position to founding your company.

What inspired you to take this big leap?

Ah, so. I love that you entered with the intersection of science and spirit. 

So in at the end of 2022, I was dabbling with a course on cosmic herbalism. So have been in herbalist. My father was an engineer and he always also was an herbalist, so always had this interest. And one of my favorite teachers, Adriana Les, from the Anima Monde brand, was doing this course. I jumped into the course with her and she was teaching us about medical astrology. And one evening everybody in the course was commenting on my Chart and I thought, oh, sugar honey iced tea. What is happening? the next day when we met as a class, she asked me what I did and she said, are you in the healing arts?

And I said, no, I'm a vice president to university. And she said, oh, interesting. I hope you can swim. And I think what she was saying to me is that there was an ocean that I needed to jump into. That I had not intentionally explored. So at the beginning of 2023 without a parachute, I decided to leave my job. And what was interesting is even though I'm not, um, an astrologer, I used medical astrology, which is what a lot of. use, and I'm not a physician, I'm a PhD that practices traditional medicine, but before there was medicine and drugs, that's what they use the NA charts. So understanding that my NA chart was telling me something and I knew I had to make that leap.

So I made the leap. And you know, the rest is history because if I can say that at, at my sacred center, I've always been a healer. just been running and, and doing everybody else's bidding, which was being on that track to probably one day be a university president and I would've been empty. I might have been successful right by by worldly standards, but I think I would've been empty. So, so that's where the, that's where the, the change came from and it was a whirlwind a change. You're muted, so I'm missing the magic.

I always do that. And like you said, you were running, you were chasing something in the world. The worldly standards of position, power, prestige, and missing out on what our soul calling our soul purpose is. But what drew you, to take this herbal medicine course in the first place?

 I love that you asked that. So I am, I had been an incognito healer, so while I was a professor, so I was a professor for 11 years, got tenure, moved into the C-suite. I had been practicing complimentary medicine, I started off as a, a yoga teacher, I believe in maybe 2006, and added a suite of complimentary practices

Okay.

every year.

So became a Reiki master teacher, actually trained people to do reiki

Oh.

So I've always had that the, the complimentary and alternative, although somebody told me I shouldn't say complimentary and alternative, I've always been doing that. Traditional medicine. And my father, like I said, he was an herbalist, he was an engineer, but I grew up around herbs.

I always had this deep interest in it and respected Adriana Les. And when she that course, I thought, wow, this is a way that I can. Add signs and spirit, right? the medical astrology to understand how years ago those physicians used the natal chart to really understand how they treated their patients using, the planetary characteristics and the constellations not as. Forgive me for anybody that loves the psychological astrology. I don't even know the psychological astrology, which is what we call the woo astrology. I just don't know it, but I know the medical astrology because there's something that feels very scientific about it, so I can make sense with the angles.

And so I had that hidden part of my life that I think Adriana was telling me I had to move from behind the veil.

Oh.

And that if I didn't do it, that I would drown and I would drown in the worst way. And I, at my sacred center, I knew that it wasn't more, it wasn't a calling, something that I had to do.

So a lot of my mentors, my, my sponsors, my colleagues, they all thought that I had lost my God loving mind.

It's a.

you, you leave your good paying job to go do what your what.

give our listeners a little sample, of what natal charts, reading NA charts and herbal or medical astrology, I should say, is all about.

Yeah. So even though that's not the main work that I do, it still is in, the department of being a, a sister of the soil. So when we look at our natal charts, our natal charts are like our fingerprint. chart is different. And depending on where you are born, right, the, the geography latitude and longitude, depending on, um, the time that you're born. There are spots on your chart which speak to planetary characteristics. So for instance, there are planets such as Mars, Saturn, and the sun, which we call the monolithics. So depending on where those planets are, they have a specific characteristic. So Mars is hot, so heat has to do with inflammation. Something that's acute and Saturn is, is very cold and restrictive. So we're talking about a chronic something that's, that's less inflammatory. So the planets actually speak to the energetic characteristics, whereas the constellations or what people will call the signs speak to the corresponding body parts. So if I can give a good example. Because my Mars is in Virgo, Virgo rules the digestive system and the stomach.

Okay.

If I had known that 10 years ago, I would've understood that I would've had some serious inflammatory issues that would've turned into something else. And that I could have treated it in a certain way.

So when my doctors saw me becoming violently allergic to foods that I had eaten for years, they couldn't pay attention or didn't understand that they had to pay attention to the stomach. But medical astrology helped me to understand that. So now in doing my own healing, I pay attention to my stomach. I pay attention to what I eat. When I eat how I eat, because I know based on my fingerprint, based on my fingerprint, that I have a propensity to the heat, to the quickness, to the inflammation in that area. And there's so much more that I came to understand because of medical astrology and because of that. able to head some things off, or even when they happen to treat them in a certain way for myself,

this is quite fascinating. I'd never heard how our natal chart can almost predict our predisposition to wellness, to illness, to certain diseases, Never, ever imagined that, but when you.

absolutely.

So are you reading women's needle charts, for example, in your work? Or are you now just focusing on West African herbs and I wanna get into that quite extensively.

I love that you asked that question because I think it's a both and,

Okay.

 I wanna look at the whole person, so as we do, and I know that I can't talk about. Diagnosis and treatment, but as I help people to understand who they are and what is happening, the natal chart is a place that we can do the assessment.

Okay.

because it can help you to un oh my God. It helps you to understand so many things. So we're talking, so we're gonna talk for years. I didn't understand where there was this bipolarity. For, for the ways that people interacted with me. You either love me or hate me and I couldn't understand that, and it's because of where a specific entity is on my booth chart. So when people see that they either see, know, something that, that is, alluring, or they might see something that makes them wanna run for the hill.

That's incredible.

 it really is. so for women, and I wanna say, especially for corporate women,

Yes.

we can understand that there is nothing, so when we say woo woo for me, when people say woo woo, it means like, whoa, whoa.

I don't understand this. But there, there is a way that this work can help us. To understand what is coming at us how we can be like the matrix and avoid it because some of my colleagues always said, I never understood how you could just move around conflict in a way that things just seem to fall off.

You like water for ducks back. And I think it's a part of me being able to assess

Okay.

I'm, who people are, and that's all related to this work of. Planetary medicine is related to the work of West African alchemy that I think we all should be introduced to, and not just black women. And I say this because when we hear about Africa, there is the assumption that, well, this is just for black women, right? And a black woman with your accent and your locks and your Cory shells and your hair. So this must just be for black women. And I want to say that. Africa's the source.

it's the source. So we can all go back to that source and drink from that source.

Mm

it's beautiful. It has changed my life.

mm.

it, has changed my life. And you know what, I understand that I needed to leave the corporate setting. Because I need to be the one that sounds the alarm, but I also need to be that leadership activator that helps to activate something in women that they, if they wanna stay in those places, we welcome that because it's not like quit your job date, they can stay in those spaces.

But I think I'm the bridge that helps them to get to that whole sense of wellbeing with all these tools.

You allude to that on your website that we know our own bodies best. And that wisdom, whether it's ancient wisdom, but wisdom that's deeply rooted, the body knows, but our western society and the western culture has given our autonomy, our power away to an external source. Our medical system, for example, and we are suddenly, feel that we are no longer able to make that those choices or tap in.

And now that we're seeing a lot of the West African practices, the eastern medicine practices trickle back in to our society. Women are now discovering at their disposal. The answers to healing and wellness are all there. But I love, love how you say you are the bridge. 

And tell us now then, 'cause that is one you mentioned it, conflict analysis.

That is was one of my questions for you is your background in conflict analysis. How has this helped shape, the way you approach women's health? Also, women's leadership and wellbeing.

You know, so. a background in conflict analysis and resolution has helped me to really, really understand that a lot of the things that women experience, especially those high achieving women that get into these very challenging roles, that there is an, there has to be an understanding that even when something is coming at you and it feels dangerous.

Mm-hmm.

Opportunity in that, So the Chinese symbol of conflict is opportunity and danger. So I always see even if something is dangerous, that there is some opportunity in it and make that your classroom because there is, there's always something, there's always something there to learn. So that's one of the things that, um. That I help women to understand. But I also wanna say that having a PhD in that field, which is very multidisciplinary, it really helps me to see things from numerous angles. So I never take this unilateral focus or stands or perspective on anything, or even the people that I work with, I really am able to see things from. Multiple lenses and because of that, you get so many more answers. So the outcome that you have is informed by not just one little thing, but so many things.

So give us an example what some this conflict that women would be facing, for example, that they would run from danger. Or run to opportunity. What are they facing now in their menopause transition that would, uh, result in a conflict for which they have to start using your resolution tools? For example, your background now in Western herbal medicine.

Oh, I love, love, love that question. So one of the biggest conflicts for midlife women is, do I use something that is informed and endorsed by conventional medicine? Based on everything that I've heard about this, everything that I've seen, my, my aunt who had breast cancer, my, my grandmother who had all these issues, or do I. Follow my heart, my heart's desire, and find something that's natural, which is what I want, what and what I see. that conflict, I think creates some intrapersonal conflict for women because it's almost like the inconvenient facts. So they know that there's some things there that can help and that's what, you know, HRT is, but there is this mistrust because of that study that was done in 1991. So they don't wanna go down that road. But the challenge is because that conflict is, it causes a lot of dissonance. And for some women that dissonance them stop. So they end up doing nothing.

Yeah.

Right, and, that interpersonal conflict is like it's churning and they don't know what to do.

The doctors are not necessarily always giving them the answers that they want, so they end up doing nothing. And in their sixties, they end up breaking a bone and they can't understand why,

Okay, now.

pushed out of their job or people are not respecting them because. they lose their thoughts during a high powered presentation for seven seconds, and people are like, oh, you know what, Susie has lost a mojo. So, what I want women to really feel empowered to do is to understand that your journey is your journey. Your needs are your needs. Your interests, your interests, and if you want to find a natural solution, do your research and find a natural solution. And I wouldn't just say evidence-based, but that has the data to support it. Some of the natural solutions out there are using some of the usual suspects like the black cohosh. I saw a lot of them have things like licorice. Licorice actually increases the blood pressure. So, people need to be aware of these things and find, I wanna say, a brand or find a person that is knowledgeable, that can really guide you away from inertia to do something.

Because doing nothing is not an option. They have to do something, and that's one of my concerns. That by women doing nothing, you know, 5, 10, 15 years down the road, they're gonna have some serious chronic diseases that is gonna impact their lives in ways that they haven't imagined.

Dr. Michelle, when you refer to the Women's Health Initiative you were referring to, the 2002 study? Okay. Yeah. And, and now we're seeing something very similar when we have seen the hype. The reports out on black box morning labels, for example, on the use of vaginal estrogen.

And not to go into that, but the same outcome seems to be happening as soon as there is these reports that garner media hype, that it puts women in a somewhat of an analysis paralysis, if you will, where they're just at a standstill. So they throw up their hands and say, well, that report just came out now this is wrong.

That's wrong. Is that pretty much what we're seeing happen is impacting women 

It's interesting that, that you say that way because when I was a professor, I taught sociology and one of the things as a fallen away sociology professor is that I understand that your culture things that are like a norm for you or values. are some of the non-negotiables and do not change.

So even though there's a lot of media hype, the FDA is going to remove the, the warning on the labels. That doesn't mean that Susie down the road is gonna decide to go do that. Because ingrained in her, in her schemata on her brain is that this causes X, Y, Z. So we have to do a lot more to either get women out of, like you said, right, that paralysis analysis

Right.

or to empower them, which is what I feel my work is to say, okay,  of menopausal women are using some of the conventional methods. What about the other 89%?

 What about all those women? So I wanna empower those women, not to say you have to do either or, but to give them the information so that they can then be empowered to say, you know what? think I'm gonna go talk to my doctor about using X, Y, Z, or let me check into some of these West African herbs that you're talking about. that probably can take me to source and help me at least do something. And not do nothing. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. Yes. I'm really stuck on this. That data, the statistics, 11% of women are relying on conventional mechanisms and the other 89% could be going any direction 

Exactly,

Okay.

I'm, I'm the nerd, you know, so I taught research methods for maybe about eight years. And I, I'm always looking at the data to understand what story the data is telling. And that study did such a wall up on, on people wanting to use the conventional methods that, I don't think women have recovered.

Hmm.

They have not recovered from the findings of that study, and we will have to do a lot more work than just the media hype, you know, doing summits. there will be some movement, but that study has caused a lot of mistrust. Right in, in certain methods. And, I don't think that is gonna change significantly in, in the next five to 10 years.

 I don't see it happening. So let's just say that figure moves to 40%. You still have all these other women not doing anything. And as I said, doing nothing is not an option.

Right.

speaking to a young woman at a networking event, I think it was two weeks ago. And, she was telling me about her business and I was telling her about Souer de Sol and she said, oh my God, I didn't think about this.

My mother just broke part of her spine. And she said she did, you know, nothing during her menopausal days. And I think her mother is like in her sixties. So we have to make, we have to make those connections. And for me, as a full and away researcher, I'm always making connections to bits of data and then inducing, and or deducing what that actually means.

I remember I had, oh my God, she was one of the most beautiful women that I have ever met. She was in the master's program with me. Before I went into my PhD and she was having a lot of gum problems,

Okay.

a year after she had a quadruple bypass.

Oh my goodness.

Now when I, when we make the connections, she was in her mid forties. Mid forties. What is happening around that time? Perimenopause.

Right

of, one of the symptoms is the bleeding gums and the issues with the gums, 

Never think of take for granted.

right, which leads to, later some cardiac issues. And she now has a pacemaker and is a shadow, of who she could, who she, I never forgot that. And now that I'm more immersed. In the menopause care work. I'm like, wow, that's interesting. I think that's what I want people to be able to do, make those connections.

But I'm here to sound the alarm. I'm here to sound the alarm. So before we have something that can be nefarious for us, are options. We need to do something.

Mm-hmm. And you are doing it. With, and I wanna ask you now, how are you, well, disrupting the norm, how you getting your information out there and empowering women. So let's transition now and tell us about your business and how the connecting the dots is allowing you now to empower women with these choices to take better care of their body.

So one of the first things that I did as a budding clinical herbalist back in school to become a clinical herbalist and doing my practice is really finding the right combination of herbs. Not the usual suspects. So I was fortunate in March of this year and part of April to be hosted by two amazing young doctors at the University of Cavi in Benin. And they set up almost like a sabbatical where every day I was meeting with at least three traditional healers who were teaching me about West African herbs. So I was, going out with them, doing some foraging, seeing the herbs, tasting them, and hearing firsthand how they use the herbs in their practices. what was interesting is that every single day was, I like to say meeting, I was meeting a herb that they have used for millennia to treat menopause.

Wow.

So. We talk about science and spirit, so I knew that that was a sign post. So when I came home in April, it was like if a menopause bubble had burst in the United States, I'm like, oh, I see it there.

I was learning this. Here I am, and then I started looking at some of my top five herbs, because at that time I was doing something else,

Okay, great.

consulting and doing some leadership development work, but. really saw that the woman that I was working with, we could have done all the leadership development training until the cows came home. If we did not deal with that root issue, was the drop in the estrogens, we were doing nothing. So at that point, when I came back in April, that's when I really pivoted. And started doing the work with Pseudo Soul. So I formulated, I like to say it is, it's a gift from my ancestors. That's the way I describe, it's a gift from my ancestors because again, the researcher in me, I'm, look, I'm making the connections. This does that, this does that, this and this. And. We have a proprietary formula of only two herbs, only two herbs. One of them I can say is lemongrass. 

The other one will remain, um, unnamed, but has been used for a number of years in Africa, in the Caribbean, and parts of South America to help with. As even things like postpartum, so, we have developed the T and this T we are sharing this T to help women with brain fog.

And what is interesting is I've done a little research with about a hundred women, and the symptom that they're most interested in addressing is brain fog. And the second one is falling asleep and staying asleep.

Yes, two of the top five issues.

Yeah. And they actually wake up in the night because of the hot flushes that they experience in the night. And this herb addresses that. But the one symptom that people have said that they are most scared of is the brain fog.

Yes.

helps. that's what I'm drinking now. This helps, it helps with brain fog.

So the, where is my mind? Tea a. A beautiful loose leaf tea because it's important to have the loose leaf so they can expand and you have more of the leaf, so you get more of the phytochemicals. It's a beautiful loose leaf tea. The gently, lifts the fog,

Uh.

fog. is not a stimulant.

That's lovely. So when you take this tea, how long after can women expect this? do they have to be drinking this for a number of weeks before it starts getting into their body, or is it instant within the same 24 hours or a few hours of drinking?

It is fast acting.

Okay,

Less than 20 minutes.

so it's called losing my mind tea or where's my,

weird. Where's my

where's my mind?

Where's my mind Tea? And it's available on our website, Souer de Sol. But I wanna say, oh, I should say, and you know, you think about all the things you've done in life, all the good things you've done.

Yeah.

this might be one of the best things that I've done.

Oh, Dr. Michelle. I love that. That is so beautiful and you know, brain fog, going back to that point, 'cause you were an executive position at working in corporate, there is no room for that. Absent mindedness and the brain fog and I will put my hand in my heart and say, fullheartedly, this was one of my major symptoms.

It was all cognitive, physical wise. I was doing the right things, the modalities of movements and nutrition. Uh, managing stress with meditation and yoga, but it was my mind and I'm sure many women will attest when they say, okay, I've got early onset dementia. Okay, that's it. I am gonna have Alzheimer's by the time I hit 45.

 that is the journey that we go down. And for us, our cognitive function as high achieving women is that one of the most important tools in the toolbox think fast on our feet and pivot and without trying to even p keep up with the patriarchy, that is just one of women's strong traits is we can think very swiftly, very quickly.

So to be empowered to have something, a remedy, herbal remedy, to give us back that edge. Is so significant. 

And, my next, well, that was not a question, it was a statement, but my question is this other herb that you can't reveal is that for fear of it being over cultivated and harvested,

So there are two things. I want to be respectful of where I got this information from.

okay.

 when I was in, in Benin, there were things I needed to prove to the traditional healers so that they knew they could trust me because one of the things they say is that the last thing that they have not lost to the colonizers is their medicine.

Oh yeah.

 I don't wanna run, say, okay, I'm gonna run, take this and make millions of dollars. And this is why the women that have taught me about these herbs, they're a part of the business. So they're the ones that are actually harvesting the herbs in Benin. the university is doing some of the quality control, so I wanna be very respectful. Of where this came from, and in a way, protect some of their, protect some of what I feel is like their secrets.

Right.

thing that I, the other reason that I'm making it proprietary is that I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry to then think that they can trample through my ancestral lands to go forage and find this herb and do all sorts of things with it. So that's, that's me really being respectful and a little protective of what has been shared with me and how it has been shared with me.

 I really admire that, that need to respect not just the ancestry, but the culture and the lands from which this is being harvested. Tell us a little bit about the name.

Uh,

that?

so while I was in Benin, which is francophone. I had to learn French. So apart from me learning from the traditional healers every day, the university had me working with a research assistant that was teaching me French. And one of the things he said, you are truly a sister of the soil. And at that moment I said, I am.

So as an herbalist, I feel that this work that I'm doing is me as a sister saying to all the women out there that I'm your sister. This is why the tea is called Poorer, which is for sister. as a sister of the soil, I developed Poer for Sisters to say, here you are. Here is this beautiful gift. From the ancestral lands to empower you To be well. To be Well, and you know what the thing is? I really believe that women are so powerful and we have forgotten some of this.

Yes,

of my role is with the remembrance. To

yes.

Help them. Help them to remember. I'm not feel pressured to do whatever anyone is telling you to do. And let me tell a little quick story. So maybe about 10 years ago you talked about the brain fog. That was my kryptonite, and went to my doctor, who was an amazing doctor and was diagnosed with ADD and was put on Adderall.

Okay.

That was, it was the most horrible experience because I felt high. I felt, and I've never used those types of drugs, but I felt high.

My speech was quick and erratic, and I saw my coworkers looking at me like, what's up with this one?

 so you literally shifted from one end of the one extreme to the other.

Ab, absolutely. And I weaned myself off it and actually started taking some herbal remedies, which, which helped. 

But in thinking back about what I experienced, I don't want women to have to experience that, and my doctor didn't recognize that it was perimenopause.

Of course, and you spoke about that in wanting to, well, in the points you wanted to share today was misdiagnosis. And I think this is something that we need to tap into. I'd love to tap into this on our conversation because I have heard this quite often that there's a lack in the medical system.

There is a gap. and we are now understand that the education system to become a general practitioner in the medical field, it might be a lecture, a module on menopause. Very little. I think one my guests had chalked it down to an hour lecture. shocking. So why is this misdiagnosis common and why are we still seeing it prevail?

Do you feel, in your opinion,

I think just what you said, that based on either the education or miseducation.

right.

Doctors know so much, and is where people like me I think are important. And this is not me being, you know, the self grandizing, but I think it really is helpful to have complimentary practitioners work along with doctors and for doctors to be clear about what they know. To be clearer about what they don't know, because you don't have to know everything. And there's some things that you may not know, but there might be people that you can partner with to support you, the people that are in your care to give those people what they need based on what this woman is requesting based on, what some of, the presentations are.

So I think there has to be not, I think. I believe there that there needs to be more partnerships.

Yes.

I truly believe there needs to be more partnerships with doctors and of interest. When I was still living in Massachusetts, I had doctors from Hospital patients to me to do reiki.

Beautiful. So close.

my favorite patients who passed on was a 6-year-old that had an inoperable brain tumor,

Oh dear.

and her doctor referred her to me for reiki to help with the pain.

Yes. that was gonna be my next question, is how do we fill these gaps in the healthcare system? And you've answered it nicely by these partnerships, but that begins with our conventional medicine. To be open to practitioners in that field to be open to the idea that there is so much more and we're seeing it.

Referrals to naturopaths. We're seeing referrals to chiro, to physio. That's just a start. There's so much more in the, let's just say the spiritual realm. I like to think of it as energy work realm that we could tap into now for the more holistic, the whole, the physical, the mental, the emotional, and the spiritual whole person that a woman is.

Yeah, and there is a big part of me that hopes that. Everyone that is interested in this work can see that there also is a very scientific part of my work. And I think that's the nerd in me that I want the science, I want the data. I wanna understand, what are the phytochemicals that are in this? and why is this doing this and why is this impacting this system? And, and that is really important, helping that you partner with understand that I know this little piece. this portion of the information. And that doesn't make you any less, just means that this person that you're partnering with can augment the way that you're able to serve your patients.

And

Yeah.

that is a beautiful thing. That

Yes,

So if I, if wishes were horses and Bes could ride, that would be my wish. That would be my wish.

yes. We're seeing that yardstick move, but it takes leadership. It takes, let's say a bit of authority of what initiative, certainly on your part, to be able to come forth and to. And position yourself as a complimentary modality of healing in all modalities, conventional, wisdom with ancient wisdom, with west African wisdom, 

And my next question though is, one about. Leadership. 

Well, more specifically, going back to your background working in the C-suite, I'm first interested to know when you were still working, were you experiencing the menopause transition at all when you were holding your executive positions as vice president of a university and, yeah.

We'll answer that one first because I have a follow up.

So I would say no. My Lucas might say something else. I would say no, but you know, I think what I. Was experiencing more than anything, and I'm also an Enneagram practitioner.

What I was experiencing, which may have been outside of the realm of menopause and midlife, was a transition in the way that I showed up.

Okay.

 and understanding my, the Enneagram type that I lead with. Once I, I delve deep into the Enneagram and I understood how people were experiencing me. I had to shift, I, oh my God, I had to shift. So I, I believe that was less about midlife and more about my own coming into. A deep understanding of who I was and how I experienced the world, but also how people were experiencing me.

Aha. Do you think though, I mean even just to come to that realization that you had to shift, but to come to that realization that you have started to observe yourself in the context of your work environment, do you think that perhaps there was an awakening at this phase, this transition in your life? almost as the start of.

Entering into the age of wisdom as Ayurveda refers to as menopause, that to be able to stop dead in your tracks, observe, okay, I am, I'm important piece of the puzzle. It's not everybody around me, but it's how I'm showing up in the world today as well. that was maybe, um, an invitation perhaps in your perimenopause, menopause journey.

I don't wanna situate the estimate here, but, I'm intrigued by this.

Yeah, so it might have been a both. And so when I had what I would call a really big awakening, at the same time, I was getting an additional certification as a Kundalini yoga teacher, and that made a big difference. That was just around COVID as well.

Right. Okay.

Made a huge, huge difference. And I truly believe it may be a bo, it may be a both, and it may be a both and, but I really think it was about me activating, those things that were in me.

So, so doing a lot of the body work, doing a lot of the breath work with Kundalini, and as you know, learning to become a teacher and seeing myself. From a totally different perspective re I mean really doing the self-analysis and like, girl, really, you said that? Or you just thought that? Is that really what you just thought? And

So,

really how you just behaved?

yeah.

that was really beyond helpful for me, which is why I understand that. 2020 was the beginning of the end for me in my corporate career,

Okay.

So from, by the time I left New York in 2021 and came to Arizona, that awakening was already happening.

Okay.

And things were just coming into, they were just coming into place at the end of 2022. know, I, I was using her products for a long time, but here she was doing this amazing course and I'm like, you know what? Let me go do it. I never thought that I would then enroll to become a clinical herbalist.

All the, all these signposts. So think the best way I can answer the question is that this was all Understand it, it all was it all was. So I even think about my work in the C-suite. I call it, an internship that, that was my internship.

Interesting. I love your perspective.

It was my internship to then leave because I had to be able to have that vantage point

Exactly.

so that when I'm working with women that are like, that were like me or that are like me in those positions, understand what they're going through because I've been there.

Yeah. 

And from your background and leadership position, what do you wish organizations understood about supporting women? Women leaders in particular as they go through this transition.

All women leaders and. Organizations need to be very clear and understand that they bring women into these positions just as they're either perimenopausal

Mm-hmm.

Or menopausal or postmenopausal. So if we're talking about equity and we're talking about employee centered, there is no way we can be hiring these women and not providing some sort of support. So I would go one step further and say all organizations need to take a close look at their policies. Because that's where it starts. Take a close look at your policies and think about looking at the organization and getting your data. What percentage of women in your organization are between the ages of 60. Just see, just get a percentage so that you know who's in the pond. And then you have to prepare the pond. So these women need to have coaching so that they understand what is happening and they don't blame themselves. And organizations also need to do some employee wellness. Hire people like me.

Yes.

 talk about sleep. There's so many women that are deprived because they think they have to get it done, or they're just not able to sleep because of the menopausal that they're in.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's fantastic. I love how you put that, know who's in the pond, and then prepare the pond accordingly. That is so perfectly, perfectly said. I'm very grateful for you, Dr. Michelle, for honoring the sisterhood and honoring the generations of wisdom that has come before you.

And not only sharing it, but protecting it from being just over colonized. I find that work that you're doing is so sacred and so thank you. Thank you on behalf of all the listeners who should be feeling tingly and warm right now, knowing that they too are part of the source, the sisterhood, because this is where we are all first.

 deeply rooted in. Before we spread our wings and went to different regions of our beautiful planet, mother Earth. I'm so excited to share this with the listeners. This has been a beautiful, conversation and one that I would like to carry on again in, in the future so we can explore more of the work that you are doing in this field, Dr.

Michelle. But please first tell our listeners where they can find you.

You can find me on our website at S-O-E-U-R-D-U-S-O-L. I'd love for you to go there and poke around. Can also find me on LinkedIn at Michelle Cromwell. And lastly, I'm starting to dabble on Instagram so you can find me at the Dr. Michelle.

I love that. That's so fantastic. We'll be sure to share those links in the show notes. 

If you could give women, oh, some parting words of wisdom in this moment, apart from Go drink my tea, but. What are some strong words of wisdom to support them in their menopause journey? Be it whether they're in the workplace, in a leadership position, or just simply the CEO of her own homestead.

you have forgotten, but

Hmm.

you can remember. And the power that you have forgotten is how to take care of your body, your whole body. mind, your heart, and your definitive, which is that sacred center. So listen to what your body is asking for and find it. find it, because the last thing I'll say is doing nothing to take care of that sacred body is not an option.

That's so true. So true. Dr. Michelle, Thank you so much for. Sharing that with us and being here today on the Menopause Disruptor Podcast and disrupting a little bit of the status quo and making us think a little bit beyond just what's in front of us. Searching deep within here to know what's right for our healing journey 

So thank you again.

deepest Pleasure.

 My Massage therapist recently told me, Mary, you're in competition with your own podcast when it comes to delivering menopause support and menopause education. And so there I was lying face down 

ruminating over her statement, and she's absolutely right. if I'm bringing on all the other experts, why would anyone seek my support and my expertise when they can just go to the websites and the many guests that I have featured on this show?

And so I was thinking, what is my specialty? then I realized, wait a second. That is my role, that is my purpose. Over 30 years in communications. Of course, of course, I am curating information, unpacking it, and delivering it to my audience. And not only that, I'm a connector. Connecting the dots, connecting the information, making it relevant, raw.

Real by sharing other people's backstories because we're all in this journey together as menopausal women. We're all in this journey as sisters, and I was so grateful that entered into our conversation, sisterhood Sisters and Dr. Michelle Cromwell. Wow. I applaud her. I said that to her and I have to say it again.

I applaud her for honoring the ancient wisdom of a culture that dearly protects generations of folklore or generations of knowledge, be it in herbal remedies or in community support of women sisterhood. so to enter this arena and tell the stories of my fellow sisters, I feel that that is my purpose.

 Sharing stories, sharing other people's backstories. And alsomine as well. And the more stories that we hear from our sisters, the more we feel a companionship. Whether it's in our close proximity or thousands of miles away, we just feel connected, and menopause is that moment in time, that pivotal moment.

where we have an opportunity to stop and take stock of who we are. Question whether we are on the right path and then autocorrect to find our way, find our way back to our soul.

 so for a woman to leave a corporate career of over 18 years, that's bold. You have to be really compelled to take a shift in a pivot out of the career trajectory to follow something that's more meaningful. And I think that that in itself is one of my biggest takeaways from this conversation.

I.

There was an inner calling, and Dr. Michelle knew it. She was so inspired by her lifelong interest in herbalism and the healing arts that it finally came to the point in her life where she was invited to step in, and since she has, she's never looked back. And we were grateful for that because what Dr.

Michelle does in the field of women's health is it's necessary. It's necessary because she closes the gap in some conventional medicine. There's so much talk about MHT or menopause hormone therapy and it has been subjugated to so much research and then that research has. Made it to mainstream. That sort of twisted and turned some of the findings. Case in point, the Woman's Health Initiative which was abruptly halted because they found links with breast cancer stroke, and subsequent studies that have come out after that actually identified that estrogen therapy 

Could in fact be supportive. for heart health and brain health. And then you've heard in my recent episode with Dr. Aleece Fosnight, where I address the issues around black box warning labels, and again, women's health and conventional remedies used to relieve some aggravating.

And at time, debilitating symptoms that get in the way of our careers, get in the way of our daily lives are being subjected to. Shocking headlines. as Dr. Michelle says, that can render a lot of women dead in their tracks. Analysis paralysis, perhaps, or just feeling I, I won't do anything. I can't do anything.

If I try, this news comes out on it, social media post out on it again saying it's bad. Dr. Michelle. Helps women to see their power by tapping into their inner wisdom. And then she blends this with cultural heritage of West African herbal medicine. Along with something I learned medical astrology to bring women tools, tools in their toolbox that they can use.

to Tailor their wellness strategy.

I mean, who knew? Planetary placements can indicate tendencies towards inflammation or chronic issues?

Incredible. but above all else. Dr. Michelle stresses the importance of doing something rather than nothing and warns us that inaction can actually lead to more chronic health issues later in life. Take agency advocate for your own health needs, but also take back your autonomy, which means seek evidence.

based, natural remedies. Seek out data, research, and then take that proactive step towards your healing journey.