Co-Founders End of Year Extravaganza!

Prepare to have your perceptions of pharmacovigilance revolutionized as we're joined by the trailblazing co-founders of Truliant Consulting. We're peeling back the layers of AI's profound impact on the pharmaceutical industry, revealing how 2023's tech leaps are changing the game for drug safety. From the fascinating convergence of wearables and social media data to the necessity of keeping a laser focus on patient safety, this episode is a treasure trove of insights into the tools and success stories shaping the future of medicine. 

Navigating the complexities of global regulatory landscapes, we dissect how companies are staying agile amidst an ever-changing field of rules and regulations. As we explore the tectonic shifts in the industry, illuminated by Pfizer's strategic acumen, our guests from Truliant share their wisdom on preparing for growth and maintaining efficiency in pharmacovigilance practices. This discussion is a must-listen for those keen on understanding the critical balance between innovation and compliance in the pharmaceutical world.

As we chart a course towards 2024, we're not just predicting the future; we're sketching the blueprint of tomorrow's pharmacovigilance landscape. Discover how Integrated Risk Management Plans and patient feedback are set to become pivotal in the quest for enhanced drug safety. And with the spotlight on the potential of large language models, this episode offers a crystal ball view of the experiments and breakthroughs that lie just over the horizon. Tune in for a dose of foresight infused with the expertise of Truliant Consulting's visionaries, where the promise of progress in pharmacovigilance beckons.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:09

not. Welcome to Innovation and the Future of Pharmacovigilance, a podcast series brought to you by Trudiant Talks. I'm your host, indy Alawalia, and I'm delighted to navigate the dynamic world of pharmacovigilance and risk management with you. However, with this being a special episode featuring the co-founders of Trudiant Consulting, I have a little disclaimer. While their views may be expressed, please note that any mention of vendors, products or services should not be taken as an endorsement. Instead, we encourage you to view the information holistically, considering your department's goals and requirements when evaluating any recommendations.

Speaker 1 1:26

Today, we're taking an in-depth look at the events that have shaped the landscape of PV and risk management in 2023. And we consider the predictions for the year ahead. I'm delighted to be able to introduce to the stage the co-founders of Trudiant Consulting. Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. So today is a very unusual format. It's a special episode and really, what we're talking about today is what happened over 2023 and what you think will happen in 2024. 2023 was a big year. There were so many things going on in the world of PV. I think the first thing that I'd like to get out of the way is the technology aspect. Sorry, there were so many things going in with regards to AI, to new vendors, to just the amount of stuff happening. Every single conference was a buzz with AI. What were the big things that stood out to you in 2023?

Speaker 2 2:46

Hi everybody. I think to me, 2023, as far as technology in PV is concerned, was a pivotal year, and I say that because it's been close to a decade since we've been talking about we need to shift from the legacy technology into the new world. We've been hearing about a lot of vendors big, small trying to win away, trying to disrupt, but up until 2022, we've mostly heard about failures. We've mostly heard about companies attempting to implement a certain piece of technology whether it's software, whether it's an individual technology, trying to improve on efficiencies within their PV department, and likewise. But in 2023, we saw some clear shift happening with respect to successes that companies have started to taste as well, as I think 2023 is the pivotal year with respect to laying the foundation for what lies ahead of us.

Speaker 2 3:55

There are many small vendors big vendors that have come up and are presenting options for pharmaceutical companies across the landscape to pick and choose from, and I think that is good.

Speaker 2 4:12

We've clearly moved away from largely a two vendor play legacy technology into a world where a lot of innovators were trying to disrupt and really bring in the new technology. As far as AI sector is concerned, I still feel there's a lot more that needs to happen for the industry to feel comfortable with the technology and use it day to day. But the foundation really has been laid and we've seen a lot of tools, we've seen products that are starting to show the promise as compared to what it was in the past. So I think, with that regard, 2023 really lays down the foundation for the next five years. Some of the decisions that companies have made big, small, large pharma companies, cros we will see in 24, 25. And I'm confident, with the amount of time that these companies have spent, that we will see an acceleration is changed. I think the industry was changing irrespective over the last five years, but it's really going to pick up, momentum starting now, and it's not necessarily just the safety database as well, there's other technologies around, rosa Ishaan.

Speaker 1 5:39

I know that there are just some very unique software ideas coming from some of these vendors.

Speaker 4 5:48

For sure. I agree with Sarab's point that 2023 has been a pivotal year. There's been huge advancements in AI technology outside of PV and people are very excited to be experimenting with these new technology, especially with large language models. And although, as you said, not just the core safety database, but there are other technology tools like literature screening or regulatory intelligence tools that are out there that take advantage not necessarily large language models, but some AI technology that are currently either being experimented or being used in the industry, that's very exciting. So I think we'll see more of that in 2024.

Speaker 3 6:45

And to add to that, I think, in terms of the buzzwords that we've heard in the last few years, which are actually shaping up or have shaped up in 2023, the AI area has developed significantly outside in different industries. Our industry pharmacovigilance is very controlled and requires a lot of control from the authorities and the companies before you can drive those innovations as solutions, because everything impacts patient safety. So a lot of these ideas and innovations coming from the core development of the technology across the industry is actually starting to show up in 2023. And there'll be a lot more focus in 2024 looking at how these technologies can be put in place with the right controls in place, ensuring there is no impact patient safety and, on the other side, there is improved efficiency in driving and capturing that data as well.

Speaker 3 7:48

And one of the other things that was also in focus in 2023 is the talk about interoperability of systems. We briefly touched upon it as well. It's not just the safety database anymore, it's the entire landscape and with the ability to capture data in so many different aspects. People have, we have wearable technology, we have data getting collected from all different sources not just safety sources, but other clinical sources as well, patient registries and people have the ability to provide information in social media and capture the data from social media as well. So, while you're collecting data from different platforms and bringing it in, what is this need? To make it useful and find out novel signals where possible and, of course, make those systems much more efficient as well and make that data available for the larger teams to make good decisions and save the products. So, yeah, we will see a lot more focus on that in the coming months and then actually in the coming years as well, but this was one of the foundation years, as very rightly pointed out by Saurabh Bin Rosa.

Speaker 1 9:00

I think what you're talking about social media there hits a point and actually we know that there's going to be new regulatory guidance E2D coming out next year. But, interestingly, on the technology side, big things have happened in the last couple of years, specifically only very recently, a few days ago, at the time of recording. Rxlogix has obviously signed up with EMA to be a technology partner. We have the MHRA with INSIFE. It's a fascinating time and it's obvious that regulatory agencies are now actually looking at this technology and incorporating it and thinking about the regulations that will be happening From a regulatory aspect. What else has happened in 2023? Like I said, we know about E2D next year. Lacey, was there anything that was highlighted this year that you thought was an interesting set from the regulators?

Speaker 5 10:12

Well, I think, not necessarily from regulators, but from the CEOMS working group.

Speaker 5 10:18

There was CEOMS 11 that was published, the working report that emphasized patient involvement throughout the development of a medicinal product, all the way through post-marketing and making sure, through the lifecycle of the products, that the patient voices.

Speaker 5 10:35

You try to seek the patient voice, you incorporate the patient voice. So I think that was a great report in the sense that it really highlighted and underscored the importance of utilizing this really critical patient feedback to inform a lot of activities. I know we had done a survey where we were looking at how patient feedback was used and leveraged with regard to benefit risk activities, and it encompasses many, many different facets of clinical trials, post-marketing, et cetera. So it was really interesting to see the report and I think moving forward really lights a fire. I think a lot of organizations understand the importance of collecting this information, but I think that there's a ways to go as far as proceduralizing, operationalizing that, to make sure that it's actually happening and that patient voice is being sought consistently, to make sure that these, from a risk management perspective, for example, risk organization tools are really fit for purpose. So I think that I'm looking forward to seeing how organizations evolve and incorporate this type of approach to better inform their risk management activities.

Speaker 2 12:02

And one thing sorry, indi I also wanted to add something on regulations. I think up until maybe up until a couple of years ago, you know, you of course had the FDA, the EMA and MHRA in Japan, and then there were other agencies. I think for the last three, four years, what we've seen is that some of these other agencies are evolving and coming up with their own unique regulations, which is only adding to the complexity. So came along South Korea with their own, uning said. Then we started hearing about China.

Speaker 2 12:36

Now last year, the South American countries, mexico, I mean, they are, I think, taking the initiative and coming up with what they want rather than just following a specific standard which is leading companies to think about. You know how can you efficiently serve and if you're a large company, you're pretty much reporting everywhere and that one standard that existed before doesn't exist anymore. So it's not only the system that needs to be able to adapt to these rapid changes, but also from a process perspective. You really have to be on your toes because the world is evolving very fast and you know you will continue to hear of countries that will come up with their own unique set of regulations and you need to adopt very quickly to that.

Speaker 6 13:25

Yeah, and I can add. I don't know, maybe you were going to add, but I'll just say briefly another area, completely different. Right, we've had our eye on the IND rule, the proposed IND rule. We're watching, we're waiting to see if that goes into effect. That puts a lot of burden, especially on smaller companies, for aggregate safety analysis ambiguity there. So part of the fun of 2023 has been watching and waiting to see where these some of these things are going.

Speaker 7 13:55

Yeah, and I was just going to add, really about IDMP. So it's been talked about for a little while and companies have been thinking, oh, it's going to come, it's going to come, but it hadn't come to fruition yet. I think in 2023, when we went to things like the EMA Information Day and other conferences, it was actually starting to make more noise again. So I think we will see changes come, and I think they'll come soon and in 2024, and it's not that long way off in the future that we've been thinking about for a while. So I think that's been talked about a lot this year.

Speaker 1 14:39

Yeah, I think that's absolutely fascinating that that's what is happening With regards to. Maybe let's take a step back away from PV a little bit and look at the Life Sciences companies in general. It's been a big year for divestments. I think again just a few days ago, from the time of recording, I think there is one massive merger happening with Pfizer and Cgen. What's going to happen in 2024? What do you think is going to happen in 2024? Because these are some major divestments and mergers happening.

Speaker 6 15:26

I would speculate more. A couple more big ones perhaps ahead next year. We're definitely seeing a trend toward the occasional massive acquisition, integration and we are seeing a trend of the larger companies this is not news, right Buying up a lot of the little guys. We see it happen all the time and I think that trend will continue. I think some companies are more ready to go spend, some perhaps are not. We're seeing spending, we're seeing contraction, we're seeing all of it.

Speaker 7 16:07

I think we've done a lot of work with companies that are stripping down and leaning up, either to prepare for an acquisition or to prepare for a big takeover. We've done a lot of work in helping companies strip down and get prepared ready for these large, either acquisitions or divestments we've spoken about.

Speaker 6 16:33

I'll add to that, indeed, and then I know you want to go on to something else. On the total other end of it, we see these really small companies that are thinking are we growing for a year or so to be acquired or are we growing to commercialize our products? Sometimes they don't know and it's been very interesting and, I would say, rewarding to help them to figure out how to handle that in between period, because they don't have unlimited money to spend, but they do have to be compliant and they do have to make sure that they are in good shape and they're sustainable.

Speaker 4 17:24

I was just going to add that, from the perspective of acquisitions or mergers and acquisitions or going to market, we're finding more interesting and more creative ways of partnering across companies to take products to market. That creates it's great commercially for the companies, but that also creates challenges and unique, newer challenges for the firm's provisions organizations to make those happen and figure out ways to stay compliant within the new partnership setups.

Speaker 3 18:11

Thanks, roseanna. I was just going to add in terms of the other aspect of this whole M&A spectrum and the divestments. Of course there are these large ones that will continue to happen, but there is this aspect of smaller product and portfolios getting divested across the industry smaller companies buying a product to create their portfolio, large companies divesting their or leaning out their portfolio in focused areas of therapies. So in that aspect there is this efficiency coming into focus or drive towards efficiency coming into focus where companies are trying to create separate either teams or project teams or departments, not just to overburden the existing core functions that deal with the regular pharmacovigilance activities, but there is a lot of focus on creating the machinery around making some of these divestments happen in a regular fashion without just overwhelming the existing core functions. In the PV, there is this area that is growing and we do a lot of work. We've done a lot of work in the last year and we see this continuing in the coming year as well.

Speaker 5 19:29

Totally agree.

Speaker 1 19:33

So that's taking the sort of the sort of larger view on everything. But something Jamie mentioned and actually there's a connection here to technology as well is that the smaller companies that may only have one or two sort of products that are just potentially just coming out to market. And again there's this link with the regulations as well that Sarah mentioned, the fact that we have these agencies all over the place. Now it's no longer just the big three, we've got these smaller ones and we've got these small companies coming into the PV world, post-marketing world and suddenly they have regulations which are no longer aligned. They're starting to sort of unalign themselves. Do you think 2024 will be a big year for these smaller companies just trying to understand where these regulations are going? It's very different when you're at the top 25, where you can have a whole department on that. How are these smaller companies going to be able to cope with it? I guess?

Speaker 6 20:52

I can give a, I guess, a brief answer, and I know others will have more views to add. They're going to have to rely on external support because it's not possible otherwise to keep up right All the subscriptions to all the regulatory intelligence and all the world. It's still. You still need help and guidance. So I mean, we all know that these smaller companies outsource heavily. We think we'll continue to do so, but we know they're going to need to rely on additional, I would say, consultative and advisory support and just that right level of support to balance right their needs against the resources available to them. So it's a challenge. Right being in these small companies is not easy. Anyone else?

Speaker 4 21:46

I was going to add as well that that is also probably what's driving some of the creativity when it comes to the partnerships as well. So in areas the small companies don't have coverage, they'll look for other parties that can help to take their product to market as well. So, and that creates complexities for both the smaller company and the bigger companies, or companies that do have presence in those other markets.

Speaker 6 22:15

Yeah, and actually, rose, I know that you mentioned that. I'll elaborate even further on where my head was going is creativity, not only in outsourcing day-to-day services, but finding a licensed partner, making sure they're a good licensed partner. These are all. There's a lot of things that are now core skills that you have to have that didn't used to be necessary core skills, and I think even to what Ishan was saying before about divestments. Companies are having to become good at things and have capabilities and skills that 10, 15 years ago wouldn't have even been on the table. Right. Big companies now have to be good at acquiring small companies. Right, that was never a thing that they had to have a dedicated function for. Small companies have to be really good at being a small company, which means something very different now.

Speaker 1 23:10

The skill sets that are required. To be in a small company is probably vastly more complicated than it is to be in a larger organization, where you're in just a singular department, being able to do one thing or a few things rather than a multitude of things. This year has been a massive change, I think, in the way that companies have hired. Obviously, technology is there to push things out to be outsourced, which outsourcing is not new but do you think that the skills that are required from the new employees is changing, or even existing employees? Emma, you did a fantastic webinar just a few weeks ago about the culture aspect of change management, but from a skills point of view, is there a big change?

Speaker 7 24:04

Yeah, I think there is going to be a big change, but that's not to say that the people that are in positions now can't develop the skills required.

Patient Safety and Technology Management

Speaker 7 24:12

I just think that there will be a lot of upskilling needed If we think about what technology is going to help us do. I think we're now going to have larger volumes of data. Like you said, we need to look for data analysts and more data scientists to help us understand our products better from the amount of information we're getting, rather than that attention to detail, to single cases or even when we're doing signal detection, we haven't had huge, huge volumes of data that we might be seeing. If we move into that data trawling on the internet and taking more information that we scan from literature and things like that, I think we're going to need to have a slightly different skill set, but I'm not saying that we need to change our personnel, but we need to upskill or change the skills of the personnel. In an RMP, from a risk management perspective, do you think things will change with bigger data and we'll need to change the data set in that area as well? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 25:22

I think it's making sure again that it's understanding that bridge between signal detection flowing into risk management and making sure especially when you were mentioning smaller organizations just really making sure that the individuals have this holistic view and understand again where the data, where the information is coming from, how that information flows from signal detection, signal management, into risk management, risk minimization. But I think, from a skills perspective, yes, as the data changes, it's going to be necessary to understand your sources of information and again, as the sources evolve, it's going to be very interesting to see individuals and how they upskill and that's great.

Speaker 1 26:20

I liked the fact that you had just touched upon data and big data. Going back to again the tech aspect, there's been, I think for the last two years, this warning coming to PV, which is big data is here and it's something that needs to be tapped into, but what's the reality of that it's like? Can PV departments actually tap into this big data from, truly, and the information that they're tapping into? Can that actually help in what is the ultimate goal, which is making sure that these products are safe for patients?

Speaker 3 27:08

So it's still in an area where the technology is meeting or getting to that place where you can start evaluating. You can imagine. I'll give you an example we have as many data sources as we can have to intake data, to intake patient safety data that we didn't have before. Social media is one of them Variable devices, patient registries, clinical sources, as well as call centers. Of course, a lot of these were there earlier. But then when you are capturing data in all of these areas, how do you make use of it where that data makes sense to the right departments or the right place real world data that can make sense to the departments or the right time or the right place, and they can make use of it in, for example, finding normal signals which you otherwise wouldn't find if you just look at the safety data in a silo.

Speaker 3 28:04

So there is this push from companies to evaluate and understand. How can they holistically look at data and then to a platform, bring it in a standardized way where electronic health records from hospitals can be, for example, stored along with safety data, along with clinical data, and you have a seamless connection. There have been innovative ideas that have been shared earlier. We haven't touched upon it in our industry in great detail, but the blockchain technology has been around for quite a while and it has its own benefits in providing data security, data privacy and decentralization of, for example, private patient data in a sense. So health authorities are a good example who can evaluate blockchain technology to make patient data available, yet make it available securely as well as decentralize that information which users can tap into.

Speaker 3 29:06

So there is a lot to look into. There is a lot that is happening in terms of evaluation. We are at the evaluation stage, I would say at the moment. 24 will see a lot more of focus in the interoperability of it and, in a sense, driving the integrations with some of these systems and departments.

Speaker 5 29:28

I think too, from a risk management perspective. I like what you said about just the right data at the right time and making sure that cross-functionally, departments have their own data sources, data sets and so critical for there to be communication and sharing of the appropriate information across and I know from clinical, from health, economics, outcomes, research it's just each individual sort of function, making sure that they are at the table, that they are present, to communicate and share this information in a timely manner. It's just so critical. I think, yeah, there are some opportunities there to make sure that the data is shared at the right time.

Speaker 7 30:17

And I think one of the things that technology can do helps get people to know that they have to get access to our data quicker, so we're able to make a judgment about our product and the safety of our products much faster than we would have been able to before. So it's not just about the volume of data that we can consume, it's about how quickly we can get access to the data as well, and I think technology will help us to do that. I'm sorry, sarah go ahead.

Speaker 2 30:51

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I came into this industry in 2003. And it was in 2007 or 2008,. A spot of a conference where we were trying to do an integration between EHR and safety, so this concept has been there for quite some time.

Speaker 2 31:07

I think this is an area where I will be critical of the world of PV and the people involved in it, because I think we've been very slow here and, despite of the technology being there, I still feel this is an area that is not going to really we're not going to see disruption very soon in this area.

Speaker 2 31:32

I think, within the confines of the PV landscape, a lot is happening and maybe this is a more natural or a logical curve for this to evolve and to be better ready for seamless integration with some of the areas that Tishan was talking about. I think that's a great vision and that is where we should be headed. Maybe what's happening in the world of PV right now, with the changes in technology that we were talking about, will set the foundation for us to move there, but I think it's going to be a long, long and very challenging process, because it's not just about technology. I think this is going to disrupt how people work within life sciences, not just safety, and that's a huge barrier in my opinion. But what we'll get there, it's just going to take time.

Speaker 4 32:25

And I think this here in terms of talking about technology, in the past years there's been a lot about advancements of technology and what we can automate. I see that this year that theme has shifted to not only how can we automate, but what is the human factor within all of these changes and some of the themes that we're trying to evaluate?

Speaker 4 32:54

and understand how we can interact with AI and how central that human verification, or how do we know that it's telling the truth? Whether AI is telling the truth, that's a huge question that's being grappled with within, especially patient safety, where accuracy and truthfulness of the information is sacrosanct. So again, technology has been a big theme, but human interaction with technology has been more and more pronounced in terms of as a central part of discussion. And then going back to Emma's point about then, we need to change the way in terms of how we work. It's now that we're automations, removing people from the process.

Future Predictions for Pharmacobigilance in 2024

Speaker 6 33:53

we're just changing how humans work within the to be world Right and I would add to that, it's also making sure that people have confidence, because the data could be there, you could have done all of the right tests and verifications, but just like with any digital transformation or whatever you want to call it engaging people so they feel they're part of it and they trust it because it could be trustworthy. But if people don't trust it, you still have a problem.

Speaker 6 34:25

So all of that still happens as well. Go ahead Em. Yeah, oh, sorry, no, it's okay.

Speaker 5 34:30

So I think, from a Rums perspective, I know there's a lot of talk at the moment just about how to reduce the burden on the healthcare system with some of these requirements that can be viewed as onerous and, I think, leveraging technology to try to kind of integrate as much as possible into the pharmacy system, healthcare system, et cetera, acknowledging Rums requirements in the electronic health records, as opposed to having to make someone go somewhere else to acknowledge that they've completed their training. So I think, as far as what you were speaking about, rosa, human's kind of interacting, but there's the technology piece. Yes, you can have that integrated to reduce that burden, but then it's also training and making sure that the Rums stakeholders know how to interact with that technology to really make it the most efficient and to really increase the uptake.

Speaker 1 35:28

So the title of this podcast is Innovation and the Future of Pharmacobigilance. So there's six of you, so I want six predictions for 2024, please, what do you think is the big thing next year, and specifically next year? I'm going to start with Emma. Well, I think earlier on in the last year.

Speaker 7 35:56

I mentioned IDMP, so I think I'm going to be keeping an eye on that and I think that will happen, or we'll at least get more guidance on what's going to happen in 2024 around IDMP.

Speaker 1 36:15

And Lacey. What do you think?

Speaker 5 36:18

I think, sort of coming back to what I had mentioned earlier about the patient piece, I think there's going to be a lot more focus on integrating this type of information and feedback into the process for risk management, and so I think there's a lot of chatter and there's a lot of awareness that this needs to occur. There's going to be a lot of focus on ensuring and building processes to ensure standard and consistent collection of this information. And, yeah, I think that's probably where I want to be focused and kind of making sure that that's progressing.

Speaker 1 36:58

Saurav, what do you think for 2024?

Speaker 2 37:02

Actually, I believe 2024. Okay, let me put it this way I believe the sort of thing that we're looking for technology will not happen in 2024. I think it'll happen in 2025. I think 2024 is going to be an year of experimentation, a lot of trials, some success, some failure, and the whole industry, including the vendors, are going to learn from it, and then you'll see a lot of big successes in terms of shifts from the legacy systems into the modern world of technology start happening in 2025.

Speaker 1 37:47

Kishan, what's your big prediction for 2024?

Speaker 3 37:54

One of the areas that I'm looking forward for more actually, guidance and information from the health authorities is the controls and how these new technologies should be tackled into the industry, so these vendors and this vision that we're talking about. I totally agree with Saurav 2024 probably is going to be the year of experimentation not identifying what technology fits in where, but I'm looking forward to it is in terms of finding out the right kind of guidance, and how to validate AI, for example, is one of the very hot topics. I'm hoping that there will be more focus from the authorities in this area in 2024.

Speaker 1 38:36

Jamie, what's your big prediction for 2024?

Speaker 6 38:40

Well, saurav stole my answer. I agree with him. I would add to that Maybe it's out of massive prediction, but a prediction is there's a lot of other smaller tech solutions that are out there to solve niche problems that some of the larger and up-and-coming systems don't necessarily tackle. So what I'm hoping to see is a little more traction in and maybe some moves early moves in those areas so that we can again learn from how those are uptaken, how they fit into the ecosystem. I think what a lot of them have in common is they are innovative, they're more modern technology, they're more flexible, so they should fit in to the future landscape. So I would like to see, and I'm hoping to see, some traction and trends there. But I agree with what Saurav said 2024 is the year to experiment, see what works, see what doesn't work, and then we'll talk about 2025, a year from now.

Speaker 1 39:48

Okay, Rosa, how do we wrap up 2024?

Speaker 4 39:54

Saurav, still my answer as well, but that's where I think it's up to the side. I'm going to say something more provocative, because huge disruption in 2023 in terms of large language models. I don't know what it is, but I think the pace of change is starting to pick up, even more so as companies are grappling with experimenting with what's available now. Some other big disruptor is going to happen outside of PV in terms of technology improvements. That's going to I don't know make a spin around a little bit about the experiments that we've been doing and then take a look at the more disruptive available technology that are coming out.

Speaker 1 40:44

I was hoping we wouldn't get near chat GPT, but it took exactly 40 minutes to get to chat GPT Absolutely fantastic, right. Thank you everyone for joining us on this podcast. I'd just like to say, on behalf of Trudiant Talks and Trudiant Consulting we hope you have a fantastic 2024. And if you ever wish to contact any one of us about any of these fascinating conversations, then please just reach out to us on LinkedIn or even just send us an email. We'll be pretty happy to get emails. Thank you, co-founders, for joining me today.

Speaker 7 41:30

Thank you.

Speaker 4 41:31

Thank you Happy holidays Happy, holidays Happy holidays. Happy holidays.

Speaker 3 41:36

Happy holidays, thank you.

Speaker 1 41:38

Thank you, thank you everyone Bye, bye, bye.