Digital Crisis Management in the Modern Age with Breach Counsel Carolyn Purwin-Ryan

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:19

Welcome back to another episode of the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast. This month we are featuring professionals within the incident response domain of cyber. I've worked some of these breaches. They're often chaotic and challenging and I've got one of the leaders kicking off the series with Carolyn Perwin-Ryatt.

Speaker 1 0:40

Carolyn is a partner at Mullen Coghlan. She serves as a breach counsel and provides third-party privacy defense legal services. She also aids clients in incident response planning, including tabletop exercises, assessment of regulatory compliance requirements and inquiries from regulators on both the state and federal levels. Carolyn serves as a breach counsel to companies in various areas, including health care institutions, construction companies, managed service providers, municipalities, professional services, retail technology and financial institutions. I think she's checking every box here. She leads response guidance in governmental investigations, mitigation and restoration services. She also counsels clients on development of risk assessment policies, vendor agreement analysis and implementation of data privacy practices.

90s Music and Movie Passions

Speaker 1 1:35

Prior to joining Mullen Coughlin, carolyn was co-chair of the cybersecurity and data privacy department at her previous firm. She also served as a national counsel for several state and federal mass tort litigations, representing manufacturers and distributors of pharmaceuticals, medical publishers, morselators and various surgical devices. She previously clerked for the Honorable Joseph Rosa in the Superior Court of New Jersey and Honorable Richard Berman in the United States Court, southern District of New York. Carolyn was named a Pennsylvania Rising Star by super lawyers in 2018 and 2019. And my goodness, reading all of these wonderful things about you, I can certainly see why. So, carolyn, you're on the hot seat. Before we start, what is your favorite music genre, and can you tell us about a concert experience?

Speaker 2 2:30

Oh well, I couldn't begin to tell you because I am all over the map, but I am more of a Fiona Apple. Tori Amos. I mean I'm going to bring out my 90s flair with all of it. I mean Corn Fate Girl. In my mind, I mean I really it just echoes in my head over and over and over again. But I will. I have to say with absolute certainty my favorite concert I've ever been to was Janet Jackson, back in the day.

Speaker 1 3:07

Oh, my Rhythm Nation.

Speaker 2 3:09

You betcha Rhythm Nation it was. I mean I still to this day. I mean I could do all the dances I could still do the dance to, if I mean, from her other albums. But talk about a woman who brings it to the stage and makes it into a show and I think really, truly, you know, really paved the way for other, you know people that are out there, other different artists that are out there I mean because now I always put everybody up to does it is it the Janet Jackson level, melissa?

Speaker 1 3:40

Is it the Janet Jackson level? The bar's been raised very high, you bet, you bet. I just want to talk about this for a second. So the nineties, alanis Morissette, garbage, did you like those two as well?

Speaker 2 3:56

Of course it's my. It's my go-to karaoke song. I mean I ought to know. By Alanis Morissette, I mean you gotta, you gotta, just belt it out from the top of your lungs. There's no other way Love it. Well, I ought to know by Alanis Morissette. I mean you got to just belt it out from the top of your lungs. There's no other way Love it.

Speaker 1 4:07

Well, I'll tell you this real quick before I ask you about movies. So I want to talk to you about that. But I saw Tori Amos back in St Louis in the 90s and she did not want the air conditioner on in the amphitheater or whatever. So it was like almost like 90 to 100 degrees or whatever. So it was like almost like 90 to 100 degrees.

Speaker 2 4:28

I gotta go. So I walked out in the middle of it. But, man, she was awesome in concert, yeah, I mean, she heard just her. You know her piano playing her, her, just her voice is just so unique. Yeah, and she makes the songs. It was really funny. I was watching a show the other day and that the song came on and I said to myself here I thought I was the only one who knew all the words to this song and it was a. I was a the yellow jacket show. That was, yes, I was watching, right, and I was watching it and I'm like, wow, right, you know, really just brought me back there's. So there's a lot of songs that are out there and I truly do appreciate when it brings you back to a time where you know and I'm going to age myself on here, but I was, you know, 14, 15 years old when that all came out and it really does. It brings you back to, like, you know, that time in your life, which is great. Yeah, the 90s are awesome.

Speaker 1 5:19

Soundgarden Nirvana.

Speaker 2 5:21

Yeah, the classic songs that they never grow old, and I know everybody likes to, you know, kind of redo them and all those. And I am, I am here for it, melissa, I am all for every single every single version of it, every single version of it.

Speaker 1 5:36

We're going to take a sidestep. Carolyn and I were talking before the recording and we were talking about movies. Again, I'm going to put you on the hot seat here. Can you tell the listeners five of your top movies?

Speaker 2 5:46

Oh, I love this question, melissa. It's so great, and thank you for asking, because in my mind, it is truly the way that you can view people and the way that you can get to learn something else about somebody else. Highly encourage everybody to ask people right? So it is the world's, I feel like one of the hardest questions out there which is saying a lot, right? So, first and foremost and this is in no particular order, I'm a kid of the 80s, so I got to throw out. I love myself some Princess Bride I'm sorry Carrie Owls and all of them back in the day. I mean, I can probably quote that movie from beginning to end, I mean, and it's something that I think is just so heartwarming and so different and just love it. I could rewatch it at any moment in time. Now the second one, again from moment breath to end, and I quote it and I probably shouldn't quote it is Spaceballs, because I just know.

Speaker 2 6:47

I got candy, it comes out it comes out sometimes I mean there's no yogurt. I hate yogurt, even with strawberries. It makes absolutely no sense. But every once in a while I'll come out with a quote and I realize, uh, you know it, not for everybody, but it still makes me laugh it really does have that like gut belly laugh.

Speaker 2 7:08

Now, you know, the three, four, five are always tough. I mean I'm a Star Wars nerd, I mean I'm a tech nerd. I'd be remiss if I didn't say Empire Strikes Back is not always in my top five. I can't, I can't not say it, I love it. I love everything about star wars. But empire strikes back is when? Is one of those movies. That was just such a monumental change for me and I loved watching. I love everything about star wars. I'm such nervous, I mean I even dropped jedi mind tricks into conversations on a pretty much daily basis. So there you go with that. Um, now, four and five. Now, 4 and 5 are kind of tough. This is 4. Oh man, let me think so. 4,.

Speaker 2 7:49

This is A very strange and unpopular one, but I'm from New Jersey Originally, so there's a Comedy that I think it really does make me Belly laugh, which is Just Friends with Ryan Reynolds and Anna Faris. I mean, I'll tell you when they say the line. But he's from Jersey, he skis in his jeans. I mean I just it's just so typical and so wonderful that I just truly enjoy. And the last one was far and away is got to be the Matrix and the last one was far and away is gotta be the matrix. I mean, I was. I just remember watching it from in the movie theater sitting in the movie theater, watching into my seat, being completely mind blown and walking out of the movie theater saying this changes everything. Yes, I really believe in the red and blue pill and the other worlds and everything like that.

Speaker 2 8:41

Like I said, my inner nerd does come out, but I absolutely love it. You know, Melissa, I was going to say any thoughts on any of them, like what about yourself?

Speaker 1 8:51

Well, I will tell you this the matrix hands down, because I do think we live in parallel universes and I do believe that one decision will change your trajectory and somehow they'll intersect. Yeah, I would say risky business somehow they'll intersect.

Speaker 2 9:07

Yeah, I would say Risky Business. Ooh, that's a great one. Ferris Bueller, I mean Ferris Bueller, I mean that dancing there. I mean there's that dancing alone, One that's just epic for all time. Set the stage. Set the stage.

Speaker 1 9:19

And then I would say Jaws, and then, rounding that out, stephen King's Dr Sweet.

Speaker 2 9:26

Oh, coming out strong at the end. I love it. There we go. I absolutely love it. First of all, jaws in my mind talk about a movie that made people not want to go in the ocean for quite some time. Name a movie that's like that or that. You know, two sounds together can make a whole soundtrack, like it's just. It's absolutely incredible. And Stephen King I mean well, he's just a genius. So there we go.

Speaker 1 9:52

I love him. Oh my goodness. So you know listeners. This is why I like to bring professionals on like Carolyn, because she's so esteemed in her field. She does does a lot of great things. She's known within the cyber community. It's such a treat to have someone on here like yourself that can show us the other side of you, and the other side of you is like really cool and I think people want to see that. So I love that.

From Medical School to Cybersecurity Law

Speaker 2 10:17

Well, thank you, I love to hear that and I love I mean, I truly love talking to people and really learning about you, know their background, cause I feel like it's so important that people come from so many different avenues of life and they can bring so much to the table, especially in this space. You know, cause not everybody comes from you know that. Hey look, you know you got. You know you're you're. You know all the different degrees and stuff like that and everything that comes with all the tech advances which do help. I'm not saying that it doesn't, because it certainly does, but I love when people bring new and fresh ideas to the table and it doesn't also preclude you from being in this space, which is something I truly, truly love.

Speaker 1 11:01

We talked about your music choices, your movie choices. I mean, really just an awesome person, how did you get into this area of cybersecurity?

Speaker 2 11:10

Yeah, so it's a really long story short, but I was pursuing in undergrad I was going to become a doctor, got all the way through, I was ready to sit there and take my MCATs and second semester, junior year, did you know, did this whole wonderful thing where I was doing almost like candy striping at a local hospital and their cancer ward and lost a bunch of patients right in a row and they were young kids and you know. It broke my heart and I said I was like you know what? I don't think I could do this and my entire life. That was what I was going to do. I was like you know what? I don't think I could do? This and my entire life. That was what I was going to do. I was going to go to, I was going to become a doctor. That's a hundred percent what I wanted to do. It's what I was studying for whole nine yards.

Speaker 2 11:52

So what do I do? I? I, you know, have terrible teeth. So I go to the dentist and my dentist is is you know who's known me for my entire life. Given me, he was like giving me their you know, put me through the ringer and saying, well, what are you going to do with your life. I said, well, you know what? I have no idea. I go and I tell and he goes well, all right, come meet my cousin, typical Jersey style, right, I'll come meet my cousin, right, right, well, so the best part was so I go and meet his cousin, not really knowing you know too much about it, turns out his, his cousin you know cousin of a you know right, cousin, I know that's like the loose Jersey term was a judge Berman, who I wound up working for before going to law school. And he said hey, what do you? You want to become a deputy clerk. And you know we have this opening, whatever. And you seem like you're kind of interested in the background. You know I was like well, what is that? You know that that sounds like you know a lawyer. He goes oh, don't worry, well, we'll teach you to go along. And he really did. He was one of my first mentors in my career. He paved the way and I was hooked. I wanted to go to law school and he was the one who really him and his clerk Christine really did show me everything.

Speaker 2 13:14

And then from there I, you know, once I went to law school and after that and did a lot of medical device work for the beginning of my career.

Speaker 2 13:21

I did a lot of pharmaceutical work representing, you know, doctors, hospitals, but also, just you know, whole different medical device companies, working with a lot of the regulatory space and then realizing, like the compliance and regulatory piece I would be constantly working with the government agencies, with the FDA, with all of that and then learning about, you know, the vulnerabilities associated with medical devices. I was always fascinated by it and that was really the segue into getting into cyber because I was dealing with so many of the entities, so much of the tech background, like understanding how medical devices were vulnerable, understanding the healthcare space, how you basically what happens when hospitals, when you plug a device into a hospital, and there's tens of thousands of devices that go into every hospital and the vulnerabilities associated with it, and that really was a parlay into doing everything with cyber. I always joke around with my parents who were like you know. I'm real happy that you did all this medical training all this medical background to not use it.

Speaker 2 14:21

And, believe it or not, I use it all the time and it really even in cyber, you know, because one of the biggest targets is always the healthcare industry. Yeah Right, and I, I mean, I'm like my goodness, I lived and breathed HIPAA for years and that's truly where I got into it as a result.

Speaker 1 14:37

That is a remarkable story, I mean, and you're such a great storyteller because I'm envisioning you at this hospital and you got to meet my cousin and this is just this is. This is why I like having the show, because this is so much more than hey, this is me, this is my professional, blah, blah, blah. And here we are. It's like you have such a wonderful trajectory from that one experience, so that's pretty cool. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2 15:02

Of course. Hey, well, I always say to everybody you never know who you're going to meet in life, right, always take those opportunities, always introduce yourself. But you asked one of the best questions, which is how'd you get into the space? And that's the coolest thing about this industry, right, which is everybody comes from different avenues and can bring something new to the table, and I love that about this industry. It's so great when I learn something new, like Melissa, coming from your background and talking to so many other people in this industry. It's so great because nobody comes from the same place, which is so great.

Speaker 1 15:38

That's what I love about it too. I thought I was going to stay at Apple forever, because it's like we launched the iPhone and then here I am, you know, and, like you said, it's like we just we have all these different paths, and I think that and I want to ask you this yeah, do you think that helps with um higher events, people having different backgrounds?

Speaker 2 15:57

With 100% certainty, because you're meeting people on probably the worst day of their business lives, right, and this could be any company. So you know, we at Mullen Coughlin, we, we, I mean, we handle probably in excess about 4000 of these kind of matters each year, right, and you meet everybody from a small mom and pop shop to people you know, no, you know no IT company. No, you know no background, no, nothing, all the way to the Fortune 100 companies, right, like so, and it's all different industries. You get accountants, you get manufacturing companies, you get, you know, managed service providers, all of those. And. But everybody sometimes forgets being as a lawyer. You got to be a human being first right.

Speaker 2 16:46

When you, when you're talking to somebody, and this is it for them, this is their livelihood, this is and you know people always say like, oh, you know, when it comes to companies and stuff like that, you shouldn't take it so personally. Hey, I'd be worried if you didn't take it personally, right, because it's so important in life to you know, look through things and look at the like, look through the path of you know where you got to come from here, but also to take it where you know. This is my livelihood, this is how I feed my family, this is how I make sure everybody else who's depending on me is feeding their family. So, being a person first and walking the different avenues of life gives you a better understanding of how to put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're working with day in and day out.

The Current State of Cyber Threats

Speaker 1 17:36

Have you seen? I know we're only in the third month of the year. It feels like a century right, but what are you seeing? Are you seeing an uptick in data breaches, like how? Are we starting out the year here.

Speaker 2 17:50

Oh yeah, I mean I would love to say that it's gone down, but that would just be inaccurate, right? I mean, certainly, the beginning half of the year is always a little bit quieter. January is a little bit quieter. January is a little bit quieter. That's usually due to the fact that in Ukraine, russia, they take a little bit of a breather during the holiday. That happens more in January, but it picked up right where it's left off in February and March.

Speaker 2 18:12

Unfortunately, we're seeing a big uptick in ransomware very aggressive threat actors that are out there, messy threat actors. We're seeing an increase in wire transfer fraud, even, just even business email compromise that man in the middle. I mean I feel like ransomware is the one that gets the most attention, right, because that's the one that you know destroys businesses. But I say this to all my clients that are out there business email compromises can be sometimes just as expensive. And why is that? And, by the way, they're the most prevalent one that we're seeing the most of right. But why? Because people store a lot of data in their email. So I would say, you know, one free piece of advice is if you could get rid of your emails and store them in a separate server, put them in cold storage, take them off the active server.

Speaker 2 19:00

I know everybody likes to be able to search through Outlook or Microsoft 365. Everybody likes to search through it, right? It makes it easier. The more you store, the more that you have on there is potentially up for vulnerability, the more you're potentially liable, right? So if somebody does get into your email, are they going to get 90 days worth of stuff or are they going to get 10 days worth of stuff or are they going to get 10 years worth of stuff? Right?

Speaker 2 19:23

And then why I say it's more expensive is because, in the event they do get access to that email, then you're looking through potentially 10 years worth of emails to see if there's sensitive information in there. For that, for the fact that you're going to have to potentially notify those individuals, right? So you know, it's always about limiting your liability. I wish I could be the person and said oh, you can eliminate it in its entirety. It's just not the world we live in, right? I mean, you could do all the best you can, invest in the best things in the world, and it just it's not how it goes. Unfortunately, because you got the human factor, people are always going to click on things you know, but it's all about limiting, it's all about making sure that you're putting yourself in the best position to combat it Right, just don't be low hanging fruit, that's.

Speaker 1 20:10

that's an interesting point. I know when I was selling managed services at Kroll, for instance. We're talking to enterprise customers like you know what we're all set. We're talking to enterprise customers like you know what we're all set CISO's on top of it, whatever. What do you think is a big misconception that companies have about data privacy and that they'll never suffer a data breach? Why do you think they think like?

Speaker 2 20:29

that, oh, a lot of the times it's. They've been kind of two things. Number one, if they're, you know, the larger companies that are out there, you know they have to set it and forget it, right, yeah, that are out there, you know they have to set it and forget it, right, yeah, where a lot of the times that they've invested in incredible, you know, endpoint protection solutions they've. You know they've locked down their firewalls, they put multi-factor authentication on everything. But what they have forgotten is a lot of the times is number one, you're going to be a target, right. But number two, you're certainly of that mentality where you're out there and you've now potentially, like you know, is everybody monitoring it? Is somebody making sure that everything is updated? Is somebody making sure that all of that? I mean there was a CVE, there was three CVEs that came out, you know, two days ago, right. Is somebody making sure that that gets implemented immediately, not 30 days, not 60 days? Have you made sure that those protocols are important and are in place? But the other piece to it, and another big misconception that's out there, is that small and medium-sized businesses, well, they're not coming for me. Why would they want to come after me? It is the single largest thing that's out there. I will tell you, having majority of the clients that I work with are small to medium-sized businesses, right, and why is that? It's because some of the times, they're low-hanging fruit, right when they've left the doors open. It's like you know, sure, if you're not putting multi-factor on your firewalls, you're not putting it on your VPNs, you know. Are you making sure that the doors are completely open to everybody? Right? But also, are you making sure that you're training your employees? Things like you know, even, just you know. I mentioned man in the middle attacks.

Essential Advice for Data Protection

Speaker 2 22:12

Wire transfer fraud is rampant. It is no longer the broken English emails, right, but who is monitoring those logs? And that even goes for even larger businesses. Who's monitoring the logs to make sure that you don't have an IP address that's outside of the United States, that is trying to get into your system or that is connecting to your system? But also, these connectors are getting smart. They're banging IP addresses all over the United States. Is that one you should be expecting, right? Is there a way to limit IP addresses? Again, it's not eliminating the risk, it's limiting the risk, and I feel like a lot of people come out there and say, hey, you know what I've done, everything I'm supposed to do, and then don't keep up to date with it, and that's a single largest thing that you just got to keep doing it, keep practicing, keep on top of it, and that's the problem. It's always a moving marker when it comes to cyber 10,000 foot overview.

Speaker 1 23:08

Somebody listens to the show and they're thinking, wow, you know, I really need to worry about this. What would be some high level advice that you would give to somebody listening to the show going? You know how do I even make this a priority? How do I do this? Where do I start?

Speaker 2 23:24

Yeah, where do I start is always the best thing. You're starting by talking right. You're starting by listening. First and foremost is know what data you have right. That's how you're able to minimize your risk. Is you know? Is there a way for the information that's sensitive to your business? And when I say the word sensitive, I mean, like you know you're, I'm not just talking about your social security numbers, financial information. I'm also talking about your intellectual property. You know what? What's the bread and butter of your business, what's the ones, what are the key factors that make your business, your business, right? Those are the kinds of things that, if you're able to remove them from your system or keep them encrypted or password protected, or it's separate and apart or limiting the access to a lot of people, that's always.

Speaker 2 24:16

Another common thing is people want access to everything. But the question becomes do you need to have access to everything within the system? And the answer is most likely no, you don't. It's a pain in the butt. I always say what are some key factors of what companies can do that are, I would say, might be not on the cheap, but also ones that are ones that you can do with not having to outsource right Is go through your data.

Speaker 2 24:48

Don't give access to everybody. Have a small few of individuals who have administrative access that actually need it, right. And the third would be to vet your vendors. Are you sending your data to right? It is, I mean, my goodness, within the past six months alone, all right. Actually it's been. Really the past year alone has been the biggest thing on every company's mind and it should be is where do I send my data to and can I trust these vendors? I mean you look at change, healthcare, cdk, power, school. You know even what happened with CrowdStrike. I mean you can keep going and going and going and the list keeps getting longer, right, and it will continue to. Why? Because threat actors know what is going to take down a big part of the population. Where am I going to get the biggest bang for my buck, right?

Speaker 2 25:45

So I stress to companies that are out there take a look at the contracts that you've entered into and it's like, oh, no, wait, there know, have your lawyers take a look at it, right, but the important piece is take a look to see. You know things called limitations of liability. It's, you know, it's a portion that you could take in the contract, but also to see if something happens to my data, am I going to be responsible for it or are they going to be responsible for it? Going to be responsible for it or are they going to be responsible for it? Are they going to be able to notify my employees? Let's just say, I send my information off to my employee benefits program or to my healthcare program, or to make sure that my checks are printed out for my employees. All of that Look at those, first and foremost, to see, in the event that something happens to that data, who's responsible?

Speaker 2 26:48

Right, and also, importantly, the other way around, right? So if something happens and you're the one who holds the data, what are your responsibilities back to them? Because, in the event of something happening to a company and you go down, what are your responsibilities? I've seen more and more contracts within the past two to three years that state that lovely sentiment of in the event of a cyber incident, you got to notify me in 24 hours, 48 hours the language. They have really put the onerous on companies both ways, right, and even if you don't know if the data has been impacted. So the last thing that you want to be doing when an incident does occur is take a look at those contracts so know those obligations both ways from moment one. Store it in a separate, encrypted, password protected document that somebody can access, because if your system goes down and it's lovely, lovingly saved on your server, it's a waste, right?

Speaker 2 27:49

The other thing again, aside from everything, is to practice Tabletop exercises. Everybody's like, oh gosh, what's that? Basically it's a practice exercise. Go through it. See who has to be the cooks in the kitchen, who's got to make the decisions, who needs to be in the room. You don't want too many cooks, but you want the people who are going to be making those decisions. Those are the kinds of things that you want to be talking about early and often right, because right now is the time.

Speaker 2 28:22

Instead of having to call me, I say to everybody what is the ultimate goal here? Is it to never have to call me, unless it's for social reasons? And then and then hey, I'll pick up the phone anytime, right, but that's when you want to talk to me. But but really, what it does come down to is I unfortunately have to. You know, we have our 24 seven hotline and I've been on phone calls at two o'clock in the morning on Fourth of July, on Christmas Eve, with companies on the worst day of their lives, and you know what? Why I want to meet people beforehand is so we can be having these conversations earlier and not when the house is on fire.

Workout Routines and Peloton Favorites

Speaker 1 29:02

That's a great segue to my next question how are you taking care of yourself? What is your wellness routine? Because two o'clock in the morning on a 4th of July, yeah, we've worked. I mean, I don't work as many breaches as you, but you know, sunday afternoon you're getting ready to just chill and there you go. You got a day to. So how are you taking care of yourself? Oh man?

Speaker 2 29:21

that's a great question and I laugh because, my goodness, it is a. It is an ever changing, ever ever evolving uh thing, uh that I I say thank goodness for the wealth of um strong women and men that I have in my life, that I heavily rely upon to pave the way for me in order to show me that direction Number one, I will say I am one of those kind of people who I need to get up first thing in the morning and work out. I'm that crazy person who stays up If I stay up until two o'clock in the morning. I'm still that person who gets up really early in the morning, at like five, six o'clock in the morning, and, does you know, goes on the Peloton, goes soul cycle, you know like, goes out for a walk with her kids at all hours of the day Not maybe not that early, but you know and have some time for yourself, hopefully not that early.

Speaker 2 30:14

But another thing is, I love to bake. I know that sounds crazy, but there, I love to bake. It is my outlet and it's weird. I love to bake at all. You know, I am that person who will randomly come into the office with cupcakes and cookies for no reason whatsoever, because I just I love it. And now I do with my girls.

Speaker 2 30:37

I've got three daughters who are pretty young and we are that's what we do. We do it on the weekends, we do it after school sometimes, or actually right now, probably downstairs, baking some brownies. I love it, and whether it be a pie or a brownie or a random ice cream cake, which is not doesn't qualify as baking, but I still love it anyway, because ice cream, ice cream is lifeblood. I don't care what anybody says. You know, it is truly one of the best things in the planet, so I'm always here for it. It is truly that, and friends really are connecting with friends, whether it be text messages, video phone calls or meeting in person. I really truly feel like that's how I keep my head on straight is listening to podcasts like yours, by the way, thank you very much for that plug.

Speaker 1 31:25

Thank you, it's just true.

Speaker 2 31:28

It's accurate. I have listened to them all. But it's also one in which you know you have to. You have to do that for yourself and everybody says you got to put your own oxygen mask on first. But really, this amount of self-care that I've been trying to do and be better about, I have probably asked. You know you'll see me at some of these conferences. You know that I'll go to, like I just got back from PLUS, but you know there's Net Diligence. There's so many conferences that are out there and I'll get back and I'll be like, oh, my goodness, that was such a fun time, but man, am I exhausted? Holy moly, right, and how do you do it? How do you do?

Speaker 2 32:09

It Is stuff like that is connecting with people and being like OK, so what did you guys do this week? What do you know? What do you know? What do you know? What are you guys doing? Pilates class? Are you guys doing Pilates class? Are you guys doing like? I will tell you one of the one of my really good friends of mine uh, he's one we do it as a thing during our conference um, that we go to. We'll be like we'll go to the 6am soul cycle and you know, go go to each other, hey, you know what? And there's no judgment, right, no judgment, there's no.

Speaker 1 32:39

Look, you know, there's always a real fun and we'll get a group and believe it or not, there's become more and more people who've gone with me and are like I see your level of crazy, I see you I see the level of crazy. I love that level of crazy, but I but I want to ask you, so I do the peloton too who do you like to ride with?

Speaker 2 32:56

oh, come on, cody, all the way. I'm sorry he, I will. You know I have to laugh, though because I, he's one that he's where I say my, he's my fun instructor. Right, he is my, my favorite instructor. That's out there. And you know they're they're ones in which he just makes me laugh, and you know we live in such a serious world. That's out there, and I just have to laugh sometimes. But I will say, when I want to get my butt kicked in, I have a very, very big favorite of mine and and I know it's because I mean, it's because I love you know, I just love her very dearly. I love you know, I just love her very dearly Robin Arzon. And the reason, reason, reason, why is I went to law school with her, did you really? I did so, I. It was so funny because I, when she did, she did a Hamilton ride back in the day, I remember that.

Speaker 2 33:57

I met. I just I love her rides, but I tell, I tell her all. I sent her a message and I said man, I'm sorry, but I did not look like that when I was pregnant. But man you are life goals thereafter. Girl, like she really is, she's truly an inspiration. But what?

Speaker 1 34:12

about you.

Speaker 2 34:13

Which one is your go-to? I'm so curious.

Speaker 1 34:16

I like Olivia Amato. I think she's great, she's amazing. She's amazing Matt Wilfers and Robin Arzon. So I'm I'm Latina and I really love when she puts those the Spanish rights together and it's all Spanish music. So I love her for that.

Speaker 2 34:34

I do, and she's so chatty like me, so like that's why I love, I love it, um, oh, and I will say, if I'm, if I, you know, have the courage. I try to do a tone days like arms ones, every once in a while. But I, I swear, I like pay for it, like afterwards, because like I don't know how you are doing this, I don't know how you were doing this, and I'll get like halfway through and or or Alex's, and I'll like went back.

Speaker 1 35:05

Tune day is no joke. Like you, oh, I'll do a 30 minute class, no problem, and you're like 10 minutes in. You're like, oh my God, what did I? What was I thinking?

Speaker 2 35:13

I know, Right, and then I'm trying to do like you know, and she makes it look like it's so easy and I'm like I and I love her music that she has on too me too I just I can't. I'm like girl, I don't know you could do this. I don't know how.

Speaker 1 35:30

I really don't, I really really don't, my goodness I was, uh, one of the first um adopters of the peloton, so I used to ride with jess king a lot and I always used to get shout outs and I would love it because it's like, oh, I recorded them, so I have them. But I was like this is awesome.

Speaker 2 35:49

I love it. I mean that's the best part. I feel like a lot of them I'm like, oh, here's my love of Peloton is the fact that you can go and search and be like you know what? I'm having a Britney Spears kind of a day. There you go. You know, I just need that in my life right now. And I was like, yeah, and then I'll have a Cody like his Britney Spears rides or his XO rides so funny. I have never I mean, you know you're strapped into the Peloton and I've never like laughed so hard to the point where, like I'm falling off the Peloton and I'm like might negate my you know, am I, am I actually?

Speaker 1 36:28

exercising, but hey, I'm out there. That's the always say the first step to everything. At least I'm out there, right? You know he has a, he has a write-up, I, so I wrote today. Who did I ride with today, by the way? Cody, oh no, oh so, um, he has a ride out there recently with Lady Gaga's Abracadabra, which is on repeat.

Speaker 2 36:46

I just I can't wait. I've been saving it for a rainy day Like that's. The thing is that I feel like he's that uplift right. Where you have that rainy day, where you need to have that in your life, and he's that person that, if you're having one of those low days and you just go on a ride with him, you're like, yep, I feel better, yep, I'm there.

Speaker 1 37:09

He's like that bestie that you want to call on the phone and say, you know, my day was really bad. He's there to go, girl, it's okay. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 37:19

A hundred percent, or also, if you need to kick your butt into gear, he's like um no, no excuses, Get on the damn bike which?

Speaker 1 37:28

I'm also all for too. Do you like the rides that he does with the John DJ John.

Speaker 2 37:45

Oh, dj John. Oh, absolutely. You know it's serious. It's one of my goals to go to New York and do one of those live with a couple of my girlfriends, melissa, maybe that's what we will do next time, just throwing it out there you know what?

Speaker 1 37:52

I've been to the studio so I'm all for it.

Speaker 2 37:54

Let's do it which one did you go, christine, okay.

Speaker 1 38:00

Oh, I love her.

Speaker 2 38:01

See, you really can't go wrong with any of them like I've been on sam's rides, where you know, or I've been on one where he does his meditation. I'm like, oh my god, you are so calming. That's the best. It's the best part about him, right, it's the best part about peloton is that you can literally go on and find your, just just find your niche, and they're all really great, which is so wonderful. I love it.

Speaker 1 38:28

Now I'll tell you this have you tried the rowing classes?

Speaker 2 38:31

Okay, I have not. It's also because I'm being a wimp about it.

Speaker 1 38:36

Oh, it's tough, it's tough. I. I'm just like what the hell was I thinking? Cause you think 30 minutes, no big deal. I have this fitness level, uh-uh, nope, oh yeah, no see, that was.

Speaker 2 38:45

it's so funny that you say that, because I tried orange theory for a while and that was part of the like three one where you do the rowing and I'll tell you, I mean it's an incredible workout, but I've never felt more wimpy in my entire life Like man. I do not know how to do this. Like you would think it's a machine, carol, like a row, it's. You know, running like one foot in front of the other seemed difficult at one point. So hey, I am all for a good workouts and stuff at rowing. It just brings it to a new level.

Speaker 1 39:22

Yeah, that's a. That's another beast Do you wear? Do you have any wearables Like are you wearing the aura ring? Apple Watch, you got anything?

Speaker 2 39:30

Oh yeah, of course, and I definitely have an Apple Watch. I definitely I don't have the aura ring. But now it's so funny that you say that because I've had it in my cart for approximately two to three months, because you know I was reading all these wonderful articles that you know say like, okay, you know, don't impulse, buy right. You know you put something in your cart and revisit it if you really want it and it's been sitting there, and also because I'm being a wimp, I've been doing this too'd be like is this something that I really need? Do I really want to know how much I actually. But you know what? It's all the wonderful same and, if anything, it gives you more invisibility into and say, hey, look, carolyn, I love that little buzz that says go stand right.

Speaker 2 40:21

Which is not good, right? Because in my business, like you know, a lot of the times I'm on the phone or I'll be sitting here on my computer typing away and you don't realize it's been hours, right.

Speaker 1 40:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:34

Or it's been an hour and I love that little buzz that says hey, look, get up off your butt Right and go walk around. It's better for you. So I might be getting the Oura ring. We will see. We will see. I don't know what about you. Do you have it? Everybody raves about it. Who has?

Speaker 1 40:52

it. You know what? I have mine. I love it, and the customer service is awesome. So there's a gentleman that I used to work with at Palm. He's over there and I'm like, hey, this isn't working and the customer service is just bar none the best. And I've got the silver one on my I don't know what the hell finger you call it, not the middle one, but the one next to it, not the ring, but I don't know what they call it.

Speaker 2 41:15

But anyways, I was like the pointer. The pointer, yeah. Yeah, I don't even know if that's really what it's called. It's late in the day, carolyn.

Speaker 1 41:31

But you know I say buy it. It's good, especially for sleep, and you know somebody like yourself. I just want to know, tell our listeners before you leave. What is your secret to like doing it all? What would that recipe look like?

Being Your Authentic Self

Speaker 2 41:40

What would that recipe look like? Being honest to yourself, really be. You know, I feel like throughout my career, one of the most important things that I have realized is being your own authentic self. Realizing who you are is so incredibly important, and just don't forget who you are and don't let anybody change that for you, because I know that sounds so serious, but it really one of the things that everybody tends to quote unquote, make fun of me or or knows about me, right, I always say, you know like it goes either way is, I'll go to some of these conferences and wear shoes that are very me and they've got sparkles, like my daughter's bought me the Aldo Wicked shoes, for you know I would, by the way, they look like the top of Galinda's, her little I don't even know what it's called the staff and I wore them to a conference.

Speaker 2 42:45

I wore them to Netty, miami because I was like you know what that is who I am, right, just a little bit of sparkle, a little bit of me. I have these rainbow colored shoes that I absolutely wear and adore, right, and sometimes they might not be the most comfortable thing in the world, but you know what? They're fun and they're outgoing, and if you just be true to yourself in this business, everything else will kind of fall into place.

Speaker 1 43:14

I love that. Well, maybe you can send us a photo of those shoes. I'll put it up when we announce your episode a photo of those shoes.

Speaker 2 43:23

I'll put it up when we announce your episode. I would be happy to. And you know what the best part is it was during my note instead of dry January, I did dry shopping January.

Speaker 1 43:39

So when my daughters bought those for me, I was very, very happy, so happy to show you, happy, so happy to show you, oh my goodness. Well, I am so glad you carved out time for me and our listeners to share your extraordinary journey. And you know just the person behind the picture and I think when people hear a different perspective of you, they're going to feel comfortable in reaching out and saying hey, I'm in trouble, I've got this breach going on, and they're going to know, like talking to you, that you're you're going to. You know, keep their heads cool and you're going to walk them through the most terrible day of their life.

Speaker 2 44:13

I love it. Oh, and Melissa, thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure and I will tell you, it's so much fun to talk to you. I love your podcast, like you've had the best people on and and a lot of my friends, which I and I truly I do call them friends, because if I call them colleagues I'd be lying, because I text them way all to all of them too much for all different kinds of reasons. Uh, especially when you know you get the text message saying hey look, I know it's two o'clock in the morning, but do you have somebody who could help? And those are the real, true friends that are out there. It has been so much fun to talk to you and it's I really hope I can you know, please keep in touch, because I'm just going to keep listening and loving it and I hope everybody else does the same. So thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 45:07

It's been so much fun. Thank you very much. Please remember to subscribe to our podcast on various platforms, including Apple, spotify, iheartradio and many more. Thank you for tuning in and take care.