Beyond Defense: The Creative Future of AI Security and Consciousness

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Transcript

Welcome and Introducing Craig Johnson

Speaker 1 0:19

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast. It's Melissa. Today we have Craig Johnson. He's the founder and managing partner of Root5 Consulting, which is a strategic executive search firm that specializes in the cybersecurity ecosystem. Craig has over 14 years of global experience in cybersecurity leadership recruitment and has successfully placed over 250 candidates into various roles across the USA. Placed over 250 candidates into various roles across the USA EMEA, latam and APAC Consultants for clients ranging from startups to Fortune 500 companies. So, craig, before we get started, I ask this of all of my guests, so hopefully you've prepared for this moment. But what is your favorite music genre and can you share a memorable concert experience with us that we can share with our listeners?

Speaker 2 1:04

Absolutely we will. Firstly, thanks for having me on, melissa. It's really appreciated, you know. I know we spoke a few times over the years, so you know I really appreciate the invite. So yeah, favorite music genre this is a hard one for me because I've got like such a broad range of music interests, like everything from soul to country to rock and roll to rap, like I literally listen to all sorts of stuff, but I would have to say soul, soul music, oh nice, yeah, that's probably the one that I kind of come back to most. Yeah, favorite memorable concert experience I would say it's kind of not really a concert experience, it kind of is. But a long time ago I used to have a job where I worked on tour with different bands and it was kind of like a job when I was a kid and I used to set up riders for dressing rooms. So I would kind of go in and I'd get this list of like obscure, weird things that these bands would want in their dressing rooms.

Speaker 2 2:04

And I kind of go in and I'd get this list of like obscure, weird things that these bands would want in their dressing rooms and I kind of have to run around the city and try to get all this stuff together and I went on tour with Al Green and really and like he was like he's a really interesting guy, like he's really out there and and on the the final night of the tour he did the Apollo in London, which is, you is quite a cool venue, and my boss at the time she was like look, I know you're a fan, take the night off. You can go and sit on the side of the stage and watch the show. So I literally sat right on the side of the stage and watched a whole Al Green performance, which was just unbelievable. I was like 20 meters from it.

Speaker 1 2:45

That was probably the most memorable. I'm loving all of these concert experiences where people are up close and personal. That's awesome yeah, yeah, that's great any uh concerts upcoming, or you just kind of hanging out for the summer? What you got going on nothing in the pipeline.

Speaker 2 2:59

You know there's a big um, there's a big reunion happening in the UK at the moment. Oasis have got back together.

Speaker 1 3:06

I've heard that.

Speaker 2 3:08

Yeah, and I was a massive, massive Oasis fan back in the day, Like you know. I've been to see them dozens of times and you know they were like my band. And I've not got a ticket for this reunion, and I don't know why, but there's some things telling me that, no, I'm just going to stick with the memories. I don't know why, but there's some things telling me that, no, I'm just going to stick with the memories. I don't want to do it over again, Because I know there's something about when old bands get back together. It's a bit like, you know, I don't know like when you see Mick Jagger running around the stage in like his 70s, it's like you know, I don't know if that's cool anymore, but yeah, so I don't have anything planned, but I feel like I probably should have gone to the Oasis gigs. I don't know, Maybe I'll regret it.

Speaker 1 3:44

Okay, for our listeners out there, this is going to be one heck of a podcast, because we're not only talking about cyber and AI, but we're talking about some of the sci-fi. And I'm only saying this because you brought up Mick Jagger, but it's like you read my mind. I saw the Tattoo you tour back in 1981. I was a little kid and I just thought the same. I'm like I'm not going to go see them. You know, like 40 or 30 years later, whatever the heck the math is there, but I don't want to go see them when I saw them in their prime, because that was a prime year for them in the 80s.

Speaker 2 4:15

Yeah, I agree, and at the time when I used to go and watch Oasis, I was 16, 17, 18, whatever. You know I was fighting to get to the front and you know I didn't mind. If I'm getting beer thrown on me and like you're in the moment, like if I went now at 40 with, you know, married and two kids, like I'm standing at the back, I'm probably getting annoyed that I can't get to the toilet in time and it's like what am I doing here?

Speaker 1 4:47

Like they've changed. I've changed. It's like, yeah, that's our period's gone now. I think, yeah, that was definitely me at the Fleetwood Mac concert in Chicago. I was near the bathroom and made sure I had an early exit so I could get out of there before bed time.

Speaker 2 4:54

Exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 4:56

Before we get into the really cool stuff, I just want to the threat landscape has really evolved over the past few years, I know, even when I was doing IR at Prol. But what frontier are we currently standing on, with AI and everything else? That's kind of seeping into the ecosystem? What are your thoughts on that?

The Evolving Cyber Threat Landscape

Speaker 2 5:13

Yeah, I think the threat landscape, I mean it just never goes away. It just gets bigger, right, right, um. And I think one thing that I've noticed in the last five years is probably like just general awareness amongst you know, the everyday people. You know, whether it's like my parents or my brother, who have like nothing to do with the industry at all, they now kind of know what it is and they're they're almost a little bit more conscious of of being hit with stuff now, which I think is good. So I I think the awareness is definitely growing, but I think that one of the biggest, I guess, issues or if we think about the frontier, I think it's a deep fake thing that, for me, is the frontier of where we're at now.

Speaker 2 5:57

I think that's the thing that is going to cause the biggest problems, in my opinion, because I don't think there's anything out there that's really tackling it. I don't think there's anything out there that's really tackling it. You know, I don't, I don't think there's any products that are being able to, you know, accurately detect deep fakes, or certainly not quick enough for them to do the damage that they do. I don't think it's only going to get better, like google vo3 or whatever it's called. I mean it's, it's just ridiculous, like it just looks like real life. So that for me, is is the frontier of cyber right now. That's where I think the challenges are that need to be solved.

Speaker 1 6:28

Do you feel like AI can be used more for good, like alleviating or mitigating those threats and the cyber defense ecosystem, or do you think that we're lagging behind and, like you just said, with Google it's so realistic? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 6:43

Yeah, I suppose AI is. You know, both sides are taking advantage of AI. From my perspective, obviously everybody is now looking to kind of implement it into their workflows and threat actors are using it for their advantage as well. I think the thing that worries me a little bit is, you know, if you look at like the defense side so you know corporates and you know cyber companies who are trying to defend against attacks I just get a sense that a lot of the discussions around ai is about. You know, how do we implement ai into our processes and and how do we do it to make us more efficient, more effective, more quicker to respond to things, which is great. You know, I think ai is going to be really good for that type of stuff.

Speaker 2 7:24

But I think on on the threat actor side, it's more around the creativity that they can get out of ai. That's a bit more dangerous, you know. So it's almost like this strategic play against tactical. Like. I think on the defense side there's a lot of tactical focus around how we can get quicker and better, but the attacker side is more like it's more strategic. It's like wow, we can get really creative with this stuff now, and I think so it's almost like there's two different use cases playing out. Um, that kind of worries me a little bit because I think the creative side may may win more often in the coming years than in the defensive side. So yeah, that's kind of my thoughts on that now.

AI: Defense Tactics vs. Creative Threats

Speaker 1 8:01

Now the cool stuff. You and I have talked offline about this and I had put together a thought piece on consciousness creation, using consciousness to manifest things. I know that you're a fan of sci-fi, do you think? With Blade Runner, philip K Dick wrote a lot of what seems to be coming to fruition now, of what seems to be coming to fruition now. And your point about Google. Do you see some similarities between that and the movie Blade Runner, where there's the identity, reality and moral ambiguity about where these beings or consciousness will have rights? Have you thought about that and what that looks like?

Speaker 2 8:39

Yeah, I mean, it's really philosophical that question around will AI have rights, Should it have rights?

Speaker 2 8:51

And it does kind of come back to the broader question of consciousness and where consciousness evolves from, and what exactly is consciousness? I think it depends on what you think about that before you can kind of make a judgment on whether ai should have rights, um, because I think if you think that consciousness is, is kind of local to the brain, um, then it's kind of difficult to say that ai should have rights because you know that it's never going to be conscious. Right, if consciousness is something that is that manifests in the brain. But I don't believe that and I think you know a it's never going to be conscious, right, if consciousness is something that is manifesting in the brain. But I don't believe that, and I think you know a lot of there's a lot of interesting theories to suggest that's not the case, that consciousness is kind of external and it's kind of like the precursor to everything. And if that is the case, then you know AI is just another creation of consciousness, like we are right, so another creation of consciousness like we are right.

Speaker 2 9:44

So in that sense then, I suppose it does. You know, there is some kind of innate no innate value in there and I suppose we, in that way, maybe it should have rights. You know, and it's a bit like when you, when you look at life in general and and you know, is a human life more valuable than than a bird's life? And you know people, most people, will probably say yeah, of course it is. But then you know, how do you know for sure, like because you don't really know who's assigning value to it in a way right. So it kind of comes down to that for me a little bit. It's like you know what is consciousness, first and foremost? If it's not local, which I don't think it is, then we're all a product of it.

Speaker 2 10:22

So therefore, maybe it should have rights. But I just, it's a really tough one. And also, like, at what point do we decide that Like? Does it just naturally occur? Or all that Like does it just naturally occur or all of a sudden, one day? Is it kind of this big sit down and go right, you know we got to start taking care of these guys better because they got feelings.

Speaker 1 10:43

It's a funny one. Let's go back and talk about some of the pop culture themes like Minority Report, matrix, blade Runner. Choose the movie and we'll deep dive into that. Is there one of those films in particular, or maybe all of them, where you're like, wow, this is really cool and I can see this happening and what does it really mean?

Speaker 2 11:00

yeah, so like in um, in the sense of like sci-fi kind of becoming reality, yeah well, I mean, I I think we kind of see that everywhere.

Consciousness and Technology Philosophy

Speaker 2 11:09

You know, I think minority report is an interesting one because you know, that whole predictive, policing, thought crime, pre-crime type stuff, scary uh, it is kind of scary and but I I've actually kind of got a bit quite deep into this at the moment because I'm involved in a, in a startup that is kind of in and around this space and um, you know the reality of, you know of, of you know the digital world, right is that you know a lot of, um, a lot of things that we see play out in the real world, whether it's like school shootings or whether it's, you know, terrorist attacks. A lot of it is planned online and particularly with, like long wall factors. You know the kind of narcissistic types. They're very vocal and very open online before they do what they do. You know, like most of these attacks can be tracked, because these people are saying in many cases, exactly what they're going to do, you know, and they're researching how to do it and they're planning it and they're buying the equipment and you know, and then they go and do something awful right, and there's a load of lives lost. So do I think we should be monitoring for that and looking for that type of stuff online, absolutely. You know apparent encrypted spaces to kind of find these people.

Speaker 2 12:22

Then, yeah, like we, I think we totally should, because you know, there's people out there who, who, who are going to do bad things, and if we can find them before they do it, then we should be looking for it.

Speaker 2 12:30

But then on the other side of the fence, like I'm, you know, I'm like a private guy, I'm a free speech guy, like I believe that, you know, we should be able to criticize stuff and we should be able to have opinions on things.

Speaker 2 12:40

But, you know, having an opinion and putting your opinion out there is kind of different too, and I think we should be open to everything being looked at and everything being examined. But I also think we need to be, you know, if we're, if we're going to be out there and we're going to be saying stuff and we're going to be which looks like we may be about to harm people, then we should be expecting a knock on the door. In my opinion, yeah, that's kind of that's where I think the minority reporting is playing out in real life and I think people are kind of a bit worried about it and they think, oh, you know, I don't want to be living in some orwellian, 1984 style state, but we've also got to be mindful that there is bad actors out there, and a lot of this stuff can be tracked through the type of technologies that people are often worried about.

Speaker 1 13:22

Yeah, it's a thin line because, like what you're saying, predictable behavioral models where can they enforce good? Where can they save lives? Where can they not disrupt? With all these wonderful technologies, we're working globally seamlessly. I don't really see that big of an issue with predictable behavioral models that are maybe tapping into those threat actors that are looking to do harm on a mass scale. So I do see that and I also agree with you. You want to be able to have your thought leadership out there with good intentional, but something that's not damaging or discouraging.

Speaker 2 14:00

But wow, have we come a long way you know, there's been examples of people getting arrested over here for just ridiculous things in my in my opinion, right um online posts. But you know, I think people are quick to jump on the bomb wagon to say oh, you know, the uk is doomed and you know you can't post anything online and blah, blah, blah and you're going to get arrested. I don't think we're quite there yet, but I also don't think that they've quite figured out what is a threat online and what is it like it's like, come on, you know, like you're allowed to voice your opinion sure but I think you know, if he was planning on a you know, on some violence against people, then you know, of course he needs to be intercepted.

Speaker 2 14:43

So I I think we need to get the balance right. You know, we need to understand actually what does behavioral. You know, what do these behavioral precursors look like and how do we sort of build models around detecting them, whilst enabling people to voice their opinions, and, you know, as long as they're not going too far and planning anything, anything bad.

Speaker 1 15:04

I like what you said there, because that's exactly the word that we should be using is balance. Ai has a lot of great things wearables, fitness apps. I use that Zing app and it's great, but then again you also have. Are we policing people? Are we creating a culture where creativity is stifled? I think that's the perfect word is we've got to have a governance around balance and where people can use this for good, because I think there's more opportunities to use it for good than bad. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2 15:35

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. But I think it comes down to what are we really doing it for? You know, I see the clip. The other day it was the Google CEO, I forget his name, or was it the Microsoft one? I think it was a Microsoft guy and he was talking about. You know how to measure the effectiveness of AI, and I think you know you were saying something about.

Speaker 2 15:54

You know, we need to look at this from kind of older school metrics, right, like you know, is the economy growing? Are is unemployment decreasing? Is poverty decreasing? You know, like that's how we should look at it, like in a really broad sense of is this making the world better, not like kind of obsessing over you know? You know, have we improved this process by this? Or you know what? If I look at it from a bigger picture perspective and you know so, I I think that's kind of where we should be going with it.

Speaker 2 16:22

Um, and I think there's a really, really big opportunity in the world right now to kind of clear up the chaos with ai, and and I mean that in the sense that you know there is so much noise in the world, there is so many, many things that kind of take away your attention and you know many people don't have time to kind of stop, take some time out of their day, meditate, go for a walk, really kind of switch off and just kind of sit with your own thoughts. People just don't have the time to do that anymore because there's just so much chaos in everybody's lives and I think that's where true creativity comes from. I think creativity comes from connecting with you know, the greater consciousness or you know whatever it might be like. You hear so many famous inventors or musicians over the years and they talk about their greatest inspiration.

Speaker 2 17:08

Their greatest idea is just coming to them yes you know, and so you know where is it coming from? It's not coming from an ai. Oh, it's not coming from an AI. It's coming from you connecting. I think if AI is implemented effectively so that we ultimately get more free time, then it can be really beneficial for creativity, because it will allow us to be more creative rather than taking away creativity from us. It's kind of like that tactical element. It's like if we implement AI at a tactical level in our lives to kind of do all of the monotonous, boring stuff that we don't want to be doing, then it can free up our time to think and connect, and that's where I think creativity comes from.

Speaker 1 17:47

I agree with that. Now I'll just say I'll just put this out there as well I think it takes discipline too. You have to know when to walk away from online usage, whether that be TikTok, Facebook or LinkedIn I mean, anybody can write anything, Anybody can say anything, but you really want to be out there talking to people face to face. You want to be out there experiencing, touching the grass, being in nature. As you mentioned, a lot of inspiration comes from when the mind is quiet.

Speaker 2 18:14

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 18:16

Okay, so we're going to pivot here for a minute. The matrix. One of the things that I've taken away from it is you are more powerful than we've been led to believe. We grew up in a world where systems have shaped our perception, and I think, in my opinion, the freedom comes from questioning the narrative. Have you taken the red or blue pill?

Speaker 2 18:37

Craig, you know, I mean I love the Matrix, I mean I think it's a great movie and I think it is one of those. So there's a quote. I forget the name of the guy, the philosopher. I think he might have been a Canadian philosopher, marshall McLuhan. I think he died a long time ago, but he has a very famous quote, which is humans are the sex organs of the machine world.

Speaker 2 18:59

And he said this a long time ago, like he said it a long time ago, before the Matrix was ever written, I believe. And so the Matrix is kind of that, isn't it? It's this virtual reality that we're kind of all living in and there's kind of science around this type of thing now as well. To suggest that, you know, the likelihood of us being living in base reality is like really low, almost minimal, which is pretty scary.

Speaker 2 19:26

But if you look at the trajectory of where we're going now, like if you look at where we are now and AI and robotics and automation and all you know the neurotech industry, like Neuralink, and you know the whole kind of neuromodulation space, like we're kind of heading towards there, you know we are kind of obsessed with creating, you know, machines that are as close to us as possible, like you know whether we're creating AIs to do what we do and then we're creating robots to move, like we move, and then we're trying to kind of connect the two together. So you know there's these, you know human brain, you know these brain interfaces now, and you think, well, you know we're kind of moving towards that direction, as much as that sounds crazy, that you know we're possibly living in a matrix now. Well, you know, even if that's not true, we're certainly working towards it, and nobody can deny that.

Speaker 1 20:19

Yeah, absolutely. I know my takeaway from it and I was again. I was very young when I saw it. I didn't know that the red pill represented truth and the blue pill is ignorance, not being aware of what's really truly going on. And for me, it really looking back on it years ago when I saw it. It really makes sense to me. Are we creating our lives? Are we just ignorant to the fact that, hey, I'm here, everything that I have learned on my life is true. And that's where I think, with things like the gateway experience, are we more than our physical bodies? Absolutely we are. And we're seeing the Moreau Institute and people that have taken those classes tapping into consciousness, expanding their awareness and going there. Even though people have created these fantastical works of art, I think it really goes down to they were doing the gateway experience by not even knowing they were doing the gateway experience.

Predictive Models and Digital Privacy

Speaker 2 21:08

Yeah, 100%, I love all that stuff. The whole gateway, yeah, I'm trying to get a hold of the CDs. I'm sure they're kind of like in a digital version now. But you know the whole is it like five steps to the whole thing? You know the gateway experience. I'm trying to get a hold of that because, yeah, I'd love to kind of dive more into it, but I'm aware of it. You know, I'm aware of the Monroe Institute and some of the people that have been involved in that, like Joe Nonigo and I think that's his name, nonigo maybe the Stargate guy. But yeah, I totally believe all that stuff, me too. I think that that's kind of where we should be spending more time and that's where we don't spend enough time now. That's kind of like the biggest problem, because we're so consumed by screens and devices when really all the answers are kind of elsewhere.

Speaker 1 22:01

I 100% agree with that, and I think frequency is based around that as well. Right, If you're overwhelmed, you're over consuming media, whatever it is, then your frequency is probably going to be lowered, because all that's going around now is probably not so good things. I think if you take that opportunity to go deep within and explore and this is what they're saying you can create your reality through your thoughts. I always wake up with intent, Craig, like I'm going to have a great day. Am I going to co-create with the creator today? What about you? Do you believe in that at all, that you can create your reality?

Speaker 2 22:33

I do, you know. I think when you strip it down, it's kind of it's not as out there as it might sound. When you know, when you say it like that Because in reality everything starts with a thought Everything, you know, everything you look like, you know, you look around in the room you're in now and all of the things that you can see in that room that have been made started with a thought. So, you know, even from that rudimental sense, then yeah, we can create our environment. Then I think you know going beyond that and actually being really, you know, really being able to kind of affect the outcome of your life. I absolutely think you can do that, you know.

Speaker 2 23:07

I think it's all about mindset. It's all about, like you say, frequencies, it's being in the right headspace. If I have a bad morning, you know frequencies, it's being in the right headspace. If I have a bad morning or a bad start to the day, you can pretty much guarantee that it's not going to turn around. It's not going to turn around unless I'm like really proactively, take myself out of it, dust myself down, take a couple of hours out, go for a run, go for a walk, meditate, whatever, switch up and then come back and then I've got a chance.

Speaker 2 23:39

But it's if you, you know if you're in the wrong mindset or you're in the wrong frequency, you just attract that stuff like you really do. You know, when people say, oh, it happens in threes, you know what. You know, some of the battle happened to you and then somebody else or somebody else people say, oh, it happens in threes, and the reason why it kind of accumulates, that is because you're in that negative mindset, you're on that negative wavelength and and you're just going to attract more of that so you can get yourself in a positive place. Yeah, exactly yeah yeah yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2 24:00

So I'm a big believer in that, for sure.

Speaker 1 24:03

The other thing that I think of when you're talking and I know you and I are passionate about this, but it's all in exactly that Like if you think that the economy is bad, well, I mean, there's evidence, right. But again, I do believe there's a way, there's a will that it won't affect you. So they call it being Delulu, but sometimes I think you know you just made an evidential point which is in threes. That person that says that, or the collective hive, is manifesting that threes, it always comes in three. Well, guess what? We all are believing in that and, stupidly, we're creating that. If we could get the hive mind to just say hey, you know what? We got to look out for one another. We got to live great. We got to live in this world where there's peace. I really think we can bring that about. And again, it goes back to that it comes in threes. Back to that it comes in threes. How about it comes in threes of great?

Speaker 2 24:55

things instead of death. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the issues that most people have is people are kind of a little bit more drawn to death. Negative news maybe I don't know, or I don't know if that's a thing or or that's something we just get told. I don't know because I don't feel like that, I try to avoid it. To be honest with you, like I don't watch, I don't watch the news on tv, like I won't, I just I can't. Like if somebody wants to talk a load of negative stuff or gossip or you know, I just I'm, you know, repulsed by it, like I just want to get away from it, like I don't, that's just not my thing.

Speaker 2 25:35

But then again, I do sometimes end up in rabbit holes around. You know things that's going on in the world, right, like whether it's you know the current situation in Israel, in Iran. You know because I try to keep on top of geopolitics and what's going on in the world, because I'm interested in it but also relevant to cyber. So I think you've got to keep on top of it and we're all so misinformed when it comes to this type of stuff anyway Nobody knows the true what's going on, but I think you've got to try and make sense of stuff.

Speaker 2 26:08

So sometimes recently I've spent days on X, you know Twitter, whatever you want to call it. You know digging deep into different people's perspectives on stuff and reading about historical events and how this government did that and that government did this, and this guy did that and that girl did this, and all really bad stuff, right and it and, and you know, sometimes I kind of got to break those cycles and say, do you know what? Just this doesn't matter, this is all stuff that you don't need to be concerned with and you just need to focus on on yourself. So I I do struggle with that sometimes, I've got to admit, like the balance between staying positive, staying focused, staying within myself and my family and my own life, against keeping on top of all the bullshit going on in the world and trying to kind of have an opinion. Yeah, I struggle with that, to be honest.

Speaker 1 26:59

You know what I think for me, meditation and doing the gateway experience, and there's 36 sessions, by the way.

Speaker 2 27:05

Is it 36?

Speaker 1 27:06

Wow, yeah, it's really crazy, but I will tell you this has enriched my life beyond anything I've ever known, because I used to have X Twitter I don't know what they're calling it these days, but I deleted it. I made a decision when I was meditating. I was getting all these wonderful, creative ideas and I was seeing that there was much more to life than just overconsumption of news, because years ago I'm guilty of it wash, rinse, repeat same thing every day. And once I tapped into my consciousness and started meditating, the world opened up for me in ways I can't even explain. I'm a believer in this stuff. I know it might sound woo to people, but it really works. It's made me a better person.

Speaker 2 27:48

Yeah, 100%. I've never known anybody say it hasn't worked for them. I know plenty of people who who give up on it. They don't give it enough time or they're not supported by the people around them as well, because you know it is kind of people will laugh and joke about it. You know it's like oh, you know what are you doing meditating? Oh you know what? Are you a hippie?

Speaker 2 28:08

you know, like like it's that type of, that type of um. You know a lot of people think like that and you know if you let that get to you then you'll never get anywhere with it. So I think you know you need some people around you who are aware and you know are into it as well, and my wife is and you know even even my kids you know will do it now they'll come, put their headphones on and they'll go and what they'll go and listen to, like, you know, like a sleep story, but it's like a meditative type thing and you know stuff like that. So yeah, I do try and do it as much as possible. You know sometimes it can be quite challenging, but you know I don't want to make excuses because I hear a million people making excuses all the time, but it's as important as physical exercise and nutrition. You know it's just for some reason it's still got a bit of a stigma. It's just for some reason it's still got a bit of a stigma.

Speaker 1 28:49

Aside from meditating, you mentioned running. What are you doing to ensure your own well-being?

Meditation and Consciousness Exploration

Speaker 2 28:54

Yeah, I mean, I do a lot of exercise. Up until two weeks ago when I tore the meniscus ligament in my knee playing paddle yeah, it hurts, but I'm pretty active. You know. I play a variety of different sports, go to the lift less weight, you know four or five times a week. So I, I do a lot of stuff that requires no thought. You know, like, if I go to the gym, I I don't, I don't put headphones in, you know, I don't take my phone in there, like it's just me and my thoughts telling me to stop doing what you're doing and kind of fighting against it. So like, if I, you know I I'll go running, I don't take, don't listen to music, don't listen to podcasts. It's just me, because I, I just feel like it's cheating otherwise. So that's kind of how I, how I get away. You know I I just take myself away, do some hard exercise, um, and and sort of force myself into the zone, um, you know, that's kind of my thing.

Speaker 1 29:52

I can relate to that. I started using free weights. I'm on week 50 now, but you're right, I might have music playing in the background, but I'm not listening to it because I'm focusing on breathing and my strength is improving, so I can't think about anything else and I really think that's what it takes. To be present is like you said, you don't have any distractions around you, it's just you and you're running. It's you running, it's lifting weights, you're just you're there. You have to be there.

Speaker 2 30:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I've been playing a lot of paddle.

Speaker 1 30:23

What is that?

Speaker 2 30:24

It's like a mix of it's a cross of tennis and squash, so it's like a. It's like a. It looks like a tennis court, but it's a smaller court, um, and it's like surrounded by perspex, um, and you play in doubles and you can hit the ball off the back of the court, off the sides. You know the the rackets are slightly different like a smaller version of a tennis racket with no strings, just like a, like a paddle, and it's a really really good game and it's like what I think it's like the fastest growing game in the UK at the moment, like it's really really popular. So I've been playing quite a lot of that and that's like a really intense game, really fast paced, really intense. We'll play for like an hour and a half and you can't think about anything else while you're doing it. You know you're just locked into the game.

Speaker 1 31:06

And, yeah, I like that again. Paddle, so it's P-A-D-E-L All right, I'm going to have to. That sounds like a lot of fun. I mean, I like tennis, I like being focused and it's fast movies. I want to check that out, see if we have that here in the States.

Speaker 2 31:18

Yeah, I'm sure you will, Because you guys, you guys have pickleball right.

Speaker 1 31:22

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 31:23

So it's a little bit like that. Also, you'll definitely have it, but it's much easier than tennis. I played quite a lot of tennis at school and tennis is quite a hard game. The court is big, it is. No, it's a tough game. Paddle is much easier. You can pick it up really quick. You'll have good rallies straight away. It's a good game.

Speaker 1 31:43

When you were growing up, was there any sci-fi movie or book that felt like a warning instead of entertainment, like looking back on your life and you read that going my goodness, this is happening of course.

Speaker 2 31:54

Yeah, I mean, I think I think the matrix was a big one for me. You know that that was one that kind of really made me think about reality in general. You know that that was a big one. There's another one as well I I forget the name of it, it's with matthew mcconaughey, and this wasn't really when I was a kid, this was quite, quite recent.

Speaker 1 32:10

But the interstellar oh yeah, that's a great one I love that one like that.

Speaker 2 32:15

That. That one for me is is really, really interesting because it's so grounded in science that we we understand. You know, it's just like the physically being able to kind of do what they do in that movie is maybe a little off, but theoretically we kind of understand it and it makes sense, which I think is like really trippy, you know, when you, when you watch that movie and you see it play out and you realize that actually theoretically it's possible, that's pretty Do you ever look back going, I thought we'd be further along.

Speaker 1 32:46

I'm talking like Jetsons, stuff like that. That seemed so far out there and here we are and we don't have any flying cars or anything. Do you ever look back on? We should be further along than we are.

Speaker 2 32:57

Yeah, maybe, maybe. I mean, you know, sometimes people talk about you know how crazy it is to live now and you know how different it is when, from from now until when, we, you know, since we were kids, kids, right, so, I was born in the 80s, um, but I'm I'm old enough to remember like no internet and no mobile phones and I things are different, for sure, but it's digitally different. Well, that's, that's the thing it's like. We have a phone, we all have computers. Computers are much better than they've ever been.

Speaker 2 33:30

But you know, when I look, I think for me, when things are like, markably different, it will be when transport looks very different. You know the type of houses we look in, we live in, look very, very different. You know, I'm looking out now and you know I'm looking around my street and it probably hasn't changed much in the last 50 years in reality. So it doesn't feel like that to me. And I don't know whether it doesn't feel like that because you've lived through it and it's just gradual changes, but I don't know. I think transport is a big one for me, like I still see people sitting in their cars for three or four hours a day in traffic and I'm like have we advanced that much? Really clearly? Not, you know, because nobody's made that better.

Speaker 2 34:08

Um, and yeah, like cars, I mean the driverless car thing is interesting, you know, because that's a thing now, you know which. And I look at my two kids at eight and five and you know, somebody said to me recently do you think they'll ever need to learn how to drive a car? And I'd never thought about that and I don't. The answer is I don't know, maybe they'll, maybe they'll only learn to drive a car because they'll want to use it on a track.

Speaker 2 34:37

You know, or you know, because the reality of it is that driverless vehicles are probably safer than humans. So if that is the case, then eventually it will be regulated that people aren't allowed to drive cars on public roads. It has to be driverless, and if you want to drive a car you've got to go on a racetrack, and so then people just won't pass their license, you know. So I think things like that, when we start seeing, you know, logistics around us change and become more futuristic, I think that's when I will feel like, right, we've arrived. But until then, I don't know, I I haven't really felt it.

Speaker 1 35:08

Yeah, I'm with you. Well, one last question for you. We have a lot of listeners that are pursuing cyber. What advice would you give someone as far as what domain or how they should go about exploring what they want to do in cyber? What advice would you give?

Speaker 2 35:32

Yeah, I think it's a good question because it's. You know, the advice I'd give today is maybe the complete wrong advice for how things will play out in the next 10 to 15 years. So it's a tricky one to kind of advise somebody on because of the uncertainty of how this whole AI thing is going to play out. But I think people should really try and get a fundamental understanding of the bigger picture of cybersecurity and what it actually is, the bigger picture of cybersecurity and you know what, what it actually is, you know the geopolitical elements to it and the crime elements to it, and you know the fact that there is there's a perpetrator, there's a victim, there's. You know you've got to understand the bigger picture and don't get too bogged down on niche technical skills, whether it's like pen testing or becoming a SOC analyst or whatever, which are all good things for sure but I think a lot of people might go into it not understanding what it is.

Speaker 2 36:16

And it's a big, global, complex criminal activity, you know, which manifests in many different ways, sure, so I think people should understand it from a broader perspective and then figure out what they really want to do and how it aligns with their personality. Um, because you know if you want to be, um, want to be a digital forensics expert, you know great, but you better be prepared to be sitting in front of a computer for hours on end looking through lines of code and you know, doing like root cause analysis and all that type of stuff like it's it's a tough job, that requires incredible amounts of concentration and all that type of stuff Like it's a tough job. That requires incredible amounts of concentration and a certain type of mind. And if you're like an extrovert and you're a people person, then you know that's the wrong place for you.

Speaker 2 37:02

So I think, you know people have got to understand themselves. First They've got to understand what the industry is all about and then they've got to understand who they are and what they're going to enjoy doing, because there's a lot of really interesting stuff that people wouldn't associate with cyber security. But but but is actually right in there. You know whether it's. You know stuff like. You know the whole PR like communications side of it which is kind of growing now. You know communications departments now need to understand cyber and how to communicate breaches to their customers, to the public, to shareholders. Um, you know that that's a whole space within itself, like, like legal. For example, you know being a cyber lawyer. You know that that's that's interesting. You know that that's a whole field.

Speaker 2 37:49

So it's more than just being a hacker or being a SOC analyst. You know there's a whole industry. Now it's very much an industry. It's not a function. People think it's a function within an organization. It's like, oh, I'm a cybersecurity person. It's really not. It's very unique in the sense that it's an industry, you know, which contains products, services. You know which contains products, services. You know it's vast.

Speaker 1 38:14

So there's so many different things that you can do within it. It's great. I am so excited that you stopped by. I know we were conflicting schedules, but I'm so glad you did because I think this was a conversation that covered so many areas in such a short time.

Speaker 2 38:25

I thank you too. Yeah, it's been really really good fun, and you had to chat about the sci-fi stuff and the consciousness stuff as well is really fun, and to think about how that plays into the whole cyber world is really fun as well. So, yeah, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 38:37

No, absolutely. Please remember to subscribe to our podcast on various platforms, including Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, many more. Thank you for tuning in and take care.