when we met eyes, I was just so intrigued and so engaged with you. And, and we didn't really share many words at all that night, but I do remember the next morning, just still wondering like, who was that? Who was that?
Lisa:Yeah, very similar to me. I was fascinated. I was dancing and there was a tea room and a crystal room and Tim caught my attention because he was wearing a full martial arts gi with a headband on and I saw that he was literally lifting this person in the air and kind of contorting their body into yoga positions. And so I, I went over and he put down this woman that he was flying. And right away, he just came directly over to me, looked me in the eye and was like, so. You want to fly? And I was like, Oh my God, this is the best pickup line there ever was. Hey guys, Lisa Dawn here. Well, well, well, this week is such a special episode, one that's very near and dear to my heart. First, because my brilliant, charming, and wonderful husband, Tim is joining us. And second, because it marks the first time I've done a live recording, and of course, like anything I've ever done for the first time, it did not go according to plan. So we decided to record The video with two phones and one great mic, the one that I'm currently using and another mic from an older iPhone. So we soon discovered that when I was trying to upload all of that data that my poor computer just couldn't handle the size. And so it just kept crashing. So after almost throwing my computer on the ground and stomping on it, then crying, I decided to put it away for the evening. And Tim is the techie guy. So he offered to work on it earlier today. Bless him for real. Otherwise this episode just would not be coming at you. And it also reminded me of the quote, if you want to be good at something, you must first be willing to be bad at it. And let me tell you, it was going real bad. So as I mentioned, we almost did not have an episode for you today, but we, we managed to fandangle it together at the very last minute. We muddled through it big time and it ended up working out. Which also relates very well to this week's episode, muddling through things the best that we can in our relationships. So, what did Tim and I talk about? Listen, this episode, Tim and I get into married life for real. We talk about chronic illness, what happens when the wheels fall off. We talk about monogamy, polyamory, masturbation, when one person in the relationship has a bunch of heavy trauma, when the other one is the savior. We talk a bit about the string of deaths in 2019 that almost cost us our relationship, the significant challenges that we've endured since 2012, and we explore the complexities of self awareness and acceptance, stressing the significance of recognizing all aspects of ourselves for a more authentic connection. And we also get into our very personal experience of rekindling love and intimacy after loss, sexual trauma, and how important individual therapy has been in our own personal healing journeys. We talk in boundaries, self sovereignty in our relationships, codependency, and honesty, even when it's scary. So, if you want some real truths about a couple who has been together since 2012, then look no further. And so, without further ado, please welcome the handsome, kind, gentle, and wonderful Tim Kessler to the show. Why, hello, husband.
Tim:Why, hello, wife.
Lisa:This is actually a milestone episode because this is my first in person. So we're coming to you from our living room, our sweet couch that's actually not our couch. It's a friend of ours. And our, our, uh, velvety painting in the background. So thanks for tuning in today. So Tim, let's do some talking. First I want to give a bit of a background just to how we met, how long we've been together and just what our journey has been like with each other and our relationship and the ups and downs. I mean, we'll get into as much as we possibly can while being as vulnerable as we possibly can in order to assist folks in their own relationships, especially when dealing with trauma and chronic pain and all of these things that can really put wedges in between us. So thanks for coming on.
Tim:Yeah, babe. I'm really looking forward to this. It's, uh, a different context than, uh, Other interviews maybe I've done in the past that are more work related, but this is, this will be fun. I think we've gone on quite a journey and often when we share, we have great feedback from folks about our lessons learned and the hardships we've gone through and the triumphs that we've had.
Lisa:So true. And we've been through a lot. So Tim and I have been together since 2012. Officially we met in 2011 on 11 11 at 11 11. So, I mean, the moment of our meeting felt, uh, very faded. It was, uh, intense. I would say soul connection. When we first met, it really felt like we had known each other for lifetimes. I was just completing my yoga teacher training and Tim was doing workshops and training in martial arts. And yeah, by chance we ended up meeting at a rave.
Tim:Indeed, we did.
Lisa:So let Tim tell you a little bit more about that.
Tim:Yeah, I guess that was a fun night. It was an auspicious night, November 11th, 2011. And at that night, that point in my life, I was actually kind of chasing another woman
Lisa:and
Tim:I was getting the cold shoulder. So I was learning that just that night though, like, Oh, whatever, it's not going to work. Let's just have fun. And through mutual friends, uh, I guess I was learning acro yoga from a former friend, a late friend now rest is his soul. And we had been doing Acro Yoga at different events just for fun where we would do some work together on the floor or then start to offer to people, Hey, do you want to come and try Acro or do you want to fly was the line. And our mutual friend, uh, introduced us and my first words to you are, where do you want to fly? And then when I offered to fly you up on my feet. I just remember lifting you up. And when we met eyes, I was just so intrigued and so engaged with you. And, and we didn't really share many words at all that night, but I do remember the next morning, just still wondering like, who was that? Who was that?
Lisa:Yeah, very similar to me. I was fascinated. I, Yeah, I was dancing and there was a tea room and a crystal room and yeah Tim caught my attention because he was wearing a full martial arts gi with a headband on and I saw that he was literally lifting this person in the air and kind of contorting their body into yoga positions. And I was already fascinated with yoga because I was in the midst of my yoga teacher training. And so I, I went over and he put down this woman that he was flying. And right away, he just came directly over to me, looked me in the eye and was like, so. You want to fly? And I was like, Oh my God, this is the best pickup line there ever was. And so right away I said, yes. And then, yeah, the rest is history, I guess, so to speak. We were friends first. We formulated a pretty beautiful friendship. We found each other on Facebook and we're talking all the time and yeah, just allowed. the connection to, to bloom into something else. So that's the story of, of how we met.
Tim:Yeah. I'd say it was like quite a fairy tale beginning to a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. There was many times at the beginning where we weren't sure if it was even going to work.
That's right.
Tim:And, and then also it ended up working that, we were both going through kind of changes in our lives and that there was space available to really enjoy each other and kind of also spark a new meeting of friends.
Lisa:Yeah, a coming together of different groups of friends. Yeah.
Tim:Yeah. And that just really, I think, laid such a great foundation so that We had multiple ways to connect, but also it was like, I felt like we were very mesmerized by each other. And I remember, I, I think we went a whole year of dating without ever having really a fight. And then we did have, yeah. And then we had a blowout. Drinking was involved. Yeah, there was
Lisa:alcohol involved, you
Tim:know, so that was kind of the first realization that, yeah, as beautiful as it is, we both are coming into this situation with our own Uh, ways of relating, our own ways of setting boundaries or not setting boundaries, and I think that that first real fight was, uh, a symbol of, hey, like, we need to have, be clear about what it is we're okay with and what we're not, and, and to also be okay asking for interpretation if there is a misunderstanding.
Lisa:Yeah. So clarity. And, like, I will note that. During that first year, we were both just really open with each other about many things. Of course the boundaries and all that had to come in to play at some point in the relationships and all. And although I do feel like there were boundaries right off the get go, we were still getting to know each other and still getting a feel for who we were as individuals and as a, as a couple. And within that there were, There was, there's also an age gap between the two of us. So we are at 10 years apart in age. And so I remember the first time that I found out that Tim was. A whole decade younger than me. I just, I couldn't believe it because he was such a wise soul. Like I knew he was younger, but there was also this kind of emotional intelligence that I hadn't really experienced with many other people. And so that was, that was something that really drew me in and made me feel safe enough to be able to be honest and upfront and open. Oh, this was the point I wanted to make before was that there weren't game playing. There wasn't any game playing between us. And so, and what I mean by that is that oftentimes we try and pretend like we're cool when we, when we meet someone. And I mean, granted, there was some of that, but within that there was like an honesty of like, I like you, I want to spend more time with you. It wasn't like one of us were really holding our cards. Close to our chest, so to speak, and trying to, I don't know, I guess the word I want to use is manipulate, or put on a front. It was just like, we were both very honest and open about how we felt about each other, which is so refreshing, and I think that that is such a marker of, if we talk about through the lens of secure attachment, that's part of it. It's like, we don't need to hide behind a facade, even though there's this, this idea about putting on our best or putting our best foot forward, you know, as you get to know someone, there's going to be a lot of that obviously, but there was an honesty in the connection.
Tim:Yeah. And that honesty came with, I think, and still to this day, I feel a very shared interest that we each have. to grow, but also to face the things that are hard about ourselves. So there was putting the best foot forward and also saying, Hey, here's the things that I don't like about myself. Here's the things that I struggle with that I'm ashamed of that I feel guilty about. And that we were both, even before we started dating, I think really sharing about those types of things, you know, about the hard lessons we've had at that point in our lives, what we've gone through, what we want to get over. all the way to ancestral pieces about how we grew up, and where our parents were to societal, bigger societal issues that we both weren't resonating with. So I think at that level, yeah, like, I kind of felt like we really gave ourselves a chance to know what we were signing up for. That's right. Without being able to read the future, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa:And I think that speaks to such an important point of Really sensing into and getting to know what your partner's values really are Beyond just like we enjoy spending time together. We think we might be falling in love It's like what what do you feel about this? What do you feel about religion? What do you feel about spirituality? What do you feel like what activities do you like and this is not to say that partners have to share the same light activities, but it's, you know, it's helpful sometimes if there's some crossover for sure, because Tim and I both shared a love of movement and yoga in particular, we spent a lot of time in the yoga studio and connecting in that way through our physical bodies and then through dance and We went to a lot of parties together shared a lot in that way and then also through music. So, but this idea of also getting to the deeper values and belief systems right off the get go, I think is such an important element of really getting to know someone
Tim:and it's vulnerable. It's vulnerable too. Yeah. And as much as we can decide we're putting the best foot forward. there's always going to be unconscious aspects at play.
Lisa:Totally. Goodness.
Tim:And so I think that that has given me grace. Like there's many times in our relationship, and we can go more into how things progress from there, where I would at times wonder, Oh, is it always going to be this hard? Or how did I get myself into this situation? This isn't what I signed up for kind of feelings. Totally. But then also recognizing what part did I play? There's lots of times in life where it can feel like it's the situation or the other person. Yeah, that is the problem Yep, but when in reality, it's a shared problem so I think it's required a lot of Experiencing the hardships together or witnessing the hardships that maybe you've gone through But then also coming back around to reflecting on myself and pointing the mirror back at myself and saying well How did I show up? What are the beliefs that I have about this situation that are no longer valid or that were incorrect from the beginning?
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:How can I forgive myself? How can I be honest about that with you so that it could change? And I think that just to bring it back to that pursuit of truth, that pursuit of growth, that's something that has kept us moving forward without getting stuck because there has been. Thank you. There, there's been stuckness too. Yeah, there's been years. Oh shit. There's been times where it has felt like it was never going to change.
Lisa:That's right. That's right. And I think that that's part of what I want to talk about more. I want to talk more about this today because, oh, I think within every relationship there is this attraction and then repulsion.
Tim:Mm. Mm.
Lisa:And I think to most people, and myself included for a long time, I thought that that was not normal. It's like after this first year, suddenly you're now seeing all of these different traits that you hadn't seen before. And everyone's kind of like laying down their shields and, you know, the truth of who we are really starts to come out. And. And oftentimes are wounding, right? When we're feeling safe, we're feeling secure. Our deepest and most vulnerable relationships, they trigger us, they push our buttons and, then becomes a defining moment. It's like, are these traits, are these beliefs, are these things enough to push me away? Or am I going to get curious about them? And, and move forward in a way that, that may be like more connecting for both of us. And I think that's quite often where some people will give up, you know, when there is this trigger, maybe you're fighting over the same thing over and over and over again for months, years, however long it is And it's annoying. It's like, why can't we get to the root of this? And what I really want to say is that, and I've experienced this time and time again in our partnership, but also when I'm reflecting on other partnerships, is this like, it's typically not the person that's standing in front of you. The trigger oftentimes comes from a previous relationship. Now, I'm not talking about like, Things that are happening on the day to day like someone not doing the dishes or whatever it is Or not, you know taking their part in the responsibilities I'm talking about the deeper wounds that you're like, oh my fucking god like this feels so innately part of me that I don't know how to change it. And I want to give an example of that and I've talked about this in previous episodes, but me and my anger, for many, many years, I would just say things like, that's just my Sagittarian nature. This is just my Irish blood and I would completely blow the lid off in anger. We'd be having a conversation or a fight, things would get a little heated and for me, What that felt like internally was just like this like Boiling this boiling point where I would just see red and I'd either have to leave the situation Or I would yell or whatever the case was And but tim wasn't allowed to do that I was allowed to do that, but tim wasn't allowed to do that and how unfair he's like, how is it that like? I get angry But if I raise my voice, that's like completely inappropriate, but like you're doing it all the time. And my excuse was like, that's just who I am. And so upon further looking, I found out to my surprise that it was a wound. And once I could see that for what it was, I could start to catch myself in these moments and it doesn't happen all the time. Like sometimes I'm still an asshole, sometimes Tim's still an asshole, like that we're still human, but the more times that we can catch ourselves and really just slow down and pause, it's such a gift to the other person, you know?
Tim:Well, and I would like to compliment that with my experience I would say maybe your anger is a, is a trait that maybe you were born with, maybe you grew up to learn that as a behavior. Maybe there were things that were unmet that become overwhelming, so then all you can choose is to explode in those moments. That's
right.
Tim:Contrast that with my upbringing. I can probably count on one hand how many times I remember my parents ever really raising or screaming or anything like that. That's right. And I think that it, even though that was healthy, I can speak for myself, but I can also speak for another, like my brother, where I've seen both of us struggle to handle that intense fire of someone who is angry and emotional, and we all so deeply love them.
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim:And so I experienced that as like, well, I'm bad. I love you. You're angry. I should just let it happen and try and take it all on because I felt like I was strong and capable and I didn't have a reason to be upset. But if you had a reason to be upset, And then I would give you permission almost and then ignore myself in that situation. And I guess the first time I learned this term was from you is fawning. Where I would try to get closer, I would try to solve the problem, I would try to almost lie to myself so that it felt like you were right, you know? And that in of itself, I think, is where it started. Maybe some of our relationships started to change.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:Because we just, that was a new situation for us both to really navigate.
Lisa:Yeah, and I mean, we were navigating this before we had the languaging. Yeah. Right? So, Tim would go into this phase of being or this, this position or this trauma response, really, of shutting down, right? Like his internal experience, as he's explained to me, would he, he would just feel like shaky on the inside, he could feel himself kind of leaving his body. And yeah, like everything would go out of whack. And I just, I didn't see that until I started training in like nervous system regulation, somatic experiencing and attachment. I just had no idea that this was what was happening for him until, until a much later date. But suffice to say it's a trauma response. And when that's happening, it's again, just like reinforcing this, this loop that's happening internally for Tim. That's like, I want to reach out. I want to connect, but also like this is fucking terrifying for me. So I'm frozen, so it's this, this conflict. And so that was happening. I mean, probably pretty much every time. that we would have, you know, a full blown argument or I would start to raise my voice. So that's a lot of patterning. That's a lot of doing the same shit over and over and over again, just reinforcing that, like, this isn't safe. And so I believe it was probably, I don't know, I don't even know timeline, but I had a repressed childhood memory surface of being molested. And so while I don't want to get too much into the detail of that, cause I've talked about it in previous episodes, I was in a full blown trauma response for many, many years, many, many years. Like my life just kind of stopped. Everything fell apart. And Tim was basically my caregiver. For those, for those years. And while I was still working and doing the bare minimum, Tim was having to manage, you know, my panic attacks, my anxiety, my unwillingness to like, it was scary for me to even go out in public for, for many years. And at the time I was running a food truck or at least trying to, wasn't doing a very good job of it. And I finally had to walk away from that because it was just too much extra stress for me to manage at that time. I just didn't have the capacity for it. And again, during that time, you know, I was having all of these explosive reactions to even like minor events. My body was in pretty rough shape during that time as well. I was also experiencing chronic pain, which had been apparent in my life for many years prior to that. So all of these things were happening internally for me. And again, this idea, right, we partner with people that have wounds that are either similar or opposite. So we can kind of come together to figure out, like, how the fuck we're gonna manage this or, or we don't. And we walk away from each other, you know? And so, I kind of just wanted to, to put that in there because there was a lot of things that were going on behind the scenes that even though we had this beautiful first year together, and like, thank God for that year,
Tim:Yes,
Lisa:because that year really showed us like the heights of love the heights of our depth the heights of like, whoa It was almost like a preparation for like the next six to seven years are gonna be a lot.
Tim:Yeah Yeah, it went from a couple of really Amazing years where even though you still were going through some physical ailments and pain. Yes. Your capacity for life, your capacity for hardship and disagreements and all these things. Yeah. It was very present. Yeah. And I can speak from having our friends see a shift where their memories was mostly of you being that bright, bubbly, social. That's right. Deep woman. Yeah. And then Not knowing how to perceive you because, again, you were more internal and private.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:And so that, I, and, and I would just premise that by saying, I wanted to premise that because for me also, coming into that space of watching you go through a, like a traumatic resurgence and a crisis.
Yeah.
Tim:I didn't really know how to orient. That's right. In the either, and when your capacity started to dwindle, I couldn't see how that made any logical sense. Yeah. I didn't know what was going on. So my empathy also started to dwindle.
Lisa:Yes.
Tim:Where I would just try to logic you out of the problem.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:But I failed to actually understand or validate those issues in the moment.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:And so, as hard as I tried to understand them, I was also irritated by it. I'm like, why, how come this is a problem? And I would try to almost tell you, you were wrong in those moments because I just couldn't see it that way.
Lisa:That's right. That's right. And I also want to say an important thing here is that, you know, during that time, Tim was so concerned about me that Like his life revolved around making sure that like I wasn't triggered.
Tim:Yeah, like I was.
Lisa:He was basically like not doing the things that he needed to do for himself. If some friends invited him out, he would be like, Oh my God, like, I don't know if I can do this because Lisa needs support. And he was doing this also without talking to me. about it a lot of the times like some of the times he would and certainly I would get triggered if I really needed support and wanted him to be around I'd say that but then there would be times where he would just make the decision that like I needed him without talking to me first. And so what that ended up doing over time is increasing resentment towards me. And so again, I like to talk about this because sometimes we think that we know someone, you know, and, and this can be a trap. because we're not necessarily allowing the person right in front of us to tell us what they need moment to moment. And we're also not necessarily taking responsibility for our own experience.
Tim:That's right. Like I, I felt like in those, in those times that I needed, like I could see that I became hypervigilant because I felt like you had a very limited capacity and that If I was struggling with the situation, me telling you that I was struggling with the situation would only burden you more. Yeah. There was many examples where if I wasn't okay and you weren't okay, then it was like crisis.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:So I didn't feel like I could really show you that because I needed to be strong. I needed to be like this white knight, you know, which is such an archetype. Of feeling like I could take it all on.
Lisa:That's right, but inside, that's not what was clearly not even happening. Yeah, it wasn't even happening. I was
Tim:denying myself things that I needed and saving them for a later day. Yeah. But eventually it felt like that
Lisa:That's right. And that's what happens. And I, it's such an important conversation because there is such a thing as caregivers fatigue. You know, there is such a thing as like letting ourselves go in order to Take care of our partners and you know over time. It just doesn't work It breaks everything down. It puts barriers on the actual relationship because Even though Tim was feeling like I didn't have the capacity to handle his heartbreak about seeing me in pain Seeing me, you know kind of dwindling and missing
Tim:those great moments
Lisa:Exactly. And like, missing that connection that we once held. For me, all I could feel was like, isolation. And that even though Tim was showing up for me in the best way that he knew how in that moment, Because he was hiding all of these things or rather keeping all of these things in it kept me from feeling connected to him You know, which just added to this like feeling of fuck like I'm just alone in this which again, this is like hallmark of trauma, you know It's like I got my people but not even my people understand or get or can be there for me in a way that feel supportive. But I also didn't know how to verbalize what I needed in those times either. So this is where I want to say, for those of you out there that are experiencing this, you've got one partner that has, we'll call it the boatload of trauma. That was me. And then you have the other partner that It's just I love this person, I want to be around, but fuck, like, I don't, I don't know what to do with this. My like, number one advice for this is that both parties have to be getting their own support and what I mean by that is therapy. I mean therapy, doing their own things that bring them joy and really just like welcoming those things in because. Otherwise, you're just losing yourself. You're losing yourself. You're losing your vitality. You're losing the very life force that's needed in order to carry you and the relationship forward. And so man, it's such an important aspect of growing and healing together because we went through periods of, and, I'm just going to be straight about this. Like my, because my abuse was, sexual in nature. And there had been like multiple instances of this in childhood and other times in my life. Tim and I, like I couldn't even handle being intimate for a long time, which is interesting because at the beginning of our relationship, like we just be having sex everywhere. Okay. We were, we were so passionate and I felt so safe. But even within this, I've talked about this before, you know, because the connection that we had was so intense and felt so kind of otherworldly when we would be intimate together. I would climax and then I would go into freeze, but I didn't know that's what was happening at the time. Like literally my half of my face would freeze and I just thought like it was some sort of like tantric experience that we were having because I was still able to have an orgasm. I was still able to go there, but it was too much. The activation, the arousal was too much for my, for my system. And then. Days and weeks following, I would either be depressed or just really dysregulated, you know, and this was happening for a long time without me knowing that that's actually what was happening. So then when I had the remembrance of the traumatic event or traumatic events I just, I didn't want to be touched. So that's, that's real hard in an intimate partnership.
Tim:And that's where confusion really grew because. That's right. I didn't feel a lack of love. Yeah. We, you know, so loving towards each other. And there was physical intimacy, but it was more like a holding, a hugging, a cuddling type of love. Not a sexual love, and that became, like, off balance.
Lisa:Right. Like I was celibate, basically celibate within an intimate partnership. And Tim within that, thankfully we were really open with each other about that. And every few months there'd be a check in. It's like, at one point I even, offered to open up our relationship because I wasn't sure if, you know, Tim was getting his needs met. And because the love was so deep and because I knew, and I mean, it's so interesting to say this and it sounds like such a cliche thing to say, but But the only thing I could say was like, it's not you, it's me. Like the love I feel for you is there. I don't understand why I'm feeling disgust. This feels like a past. And I knew, I knew it wasn't from Tim. So that's a really important thing. And especially again, if our listeners out there are experiencing this and you know, there's a history of sexual abuse. A lot of the times, and this is not 100 percent of the time, sometimes, right, you're just, you're moving away from your partnership. But that's not what was happening in our partnership. What was happening was that like my body was constantly reliving this like disgust of being touched inappropriately and having my boundaries completely obliterated when I was younger. And so it just so happened that I was in a situation where I was safe enough partnership that I could have that trigger, even though we didn't know what to do with it at the time. It was years of, not necessarily being celibate for years on end, but it was very sparse. Yeah. And it just became a very
Tim:minimized. Almost like a quick and dirty, let's just do it while you have the tolerance for it. Knowing that we could bump up against those edges at any moment. And, and so I'd say for me, that was another example of really not knowing how to. my own self worth.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:Where it's like, I feel loved. I know that you love me. And I know that your disgust for sexual intimacy wasn't pointed at me. But at the same time, I had to start to learn how to decipher. Well, what is a want? What is a desire? What is a need? And I didn't have enough kind of self worth around that for myself because I felt like, honestly, that any time I would pleasure myself that that was shameful and guilt ridden.
That's a whole other theme,
Tim:yeah. And like, that God forbid you would ever, you know, I don't know if you even know about me masturbating, let alone. Yeah.
Lisa:Meanwhile, I'm like, please masturbate. I'm like, please, please go masturbate.
Tim:And at the same time being like, well, that, that isn't enough. Yeah. It's not enough. Like that helps. But that also is like a slippery slope. And for men out there that struggle with that too, I get it.
Yeah.
Tim:It's like, I know some dudes who have no shame in that.
Yeah.
Tim:And it's like, good for you. And I also know a lot of guys that it's like, It feels good and great to want to masturbate, but as soon as it's over, it feels like that was a shame. That's right. That was empty, that was just for pleasure, that wasn't anything else.
Yep.
Tim:And so, when you also started to kind of open up and say, well, if you're not getting your needs met, I need to know.
Yeah.
Tim:I didn't know how to respond to you. Exactly.
Yeah,
Tim:I couldn't even pinpoint myself and through therapy. I was able to really start to decipher wants and needs and
yeah,
Tim:and what it might look like because we have friends that have had open relationships and gone through polyamory and stuff Yeah, so we I had the opportunity to witness how some of that could work But in my heart, I'm like, I actually don't want another woman.
Yeah,
Tim:you know, there's again Ideas of fantasy, of course, you know pornography can fill that box in a lot of ways. Yeah Yeah, what's a wine? What's a need what I really needed was loving love making with you That's right. And that wasn't there totally that wasn't quite available. So that became kind of this hard place to navigate because What do you do with sexual frustration and build up and, you know, what, I think it became this kind of push and pull. It's like, well, I'm able to give you everything you could ever need and want. That was my perspective of what I wanted to do for you. I know I couldn't always be 100 percent and nor did I think I could be perfect. But when you would ask me, hey. Do you have a need that's not being met? I could say yes, but I know that in some ways it wasn't available. So it was like, do I then try and take ownership over my needs and force you into a situation that you weren't ready for?
So it just
Tim:felt like a losing battle.
Yeah.
Tim:Probably the best thing that helped two things that really helped with that was one therapy.
Yeah.
Tim:And being able to voice those things with, not just, because I had friends that I could talk about that with, but it's different than with a trained therapist. And then another time was when we were traveling abroad. And I felt very uncomfortable being around other attractive women. Which was strange because early in our relationship, we were friends with so many women. I lived with multiple roommates that were women with you and had great friendships with other women. Never held any shame around that. But fast forward years and years later, after coming out of a very kind of like private life with you going through these, these healing journeys in this crisis, I all of a sudden was very uncomfortable at the idea of even having a conversation with a woman that was attractive.
Yeah.
Tim:I opened up to you about that because it was really scary for me and I didn't know what it meant. But you just said, well. Well, why don't you just go and sign up for a class at the yoga place down the street and take this Thai massage thing. Go get your hands on someone else. See how that feels. And like, I have to give you credit because all through our relationship, you have never really ever been jealous. You've been very, like, you've given lots of great permission. You've never shamed me for my sexual ways or being a man and having attraction to other women.
Yeah.
Tim:So that was another moment in our relationship where I could see him like, wow, like as much as I think I'm struggling and that this situation sucks, it isn't what I think it is. I was doing a lot of that to myself. I was shaming myself as soon as I could be honest. And you gave me very secure attached, like, it's okay. I see you. Of course you have these feelings.
Yeah.
Tim:Why don't you go out on your own for the day?
Why
Tim:don't you go meet some women?
Yeah.
Tim:I'm like, wow, holy cow. That's great. Thank you. And it was nerve wracking, but I ended up being able to connect with like this 60, 60 year old woman from the Middle East somewhere who just had so much joy in her face when we were sharing the Thai massage workshop and like, Like, Oh, like this is not just about being attracted to other women. This is just about being able to be an honest, genuine human. Yeah. Connection.
Lisa:Yeah. It
Tim:doesn't have to be sexual. Totally. And that was such a great like correction for me again.
Lisa:Yeah. There's so many things that I want to say about everything that you just shared. One of which is going back to this idea of wanting to give to our partners. And so what I was doing for the first little bit was even though I was feeling my body was giving me a definite no for touch,
Tim:forgiving,
Lisa:forgiving, or like even receiving touch, like intimate sexual touch, not like hugs and kisses and, and all of these things. But when it got down to it, like my body would give me a no. And so part of my fawning journey, which was also a boundary rupture, was to not listen and go ahead with doing the sexy time thing, which ultimately, and I want to be really clear about this. So oftentimes we think that you know, when we've got any kind of sexual trauma, it has to be from like a major boundary break, like either being like abused or, you know, molested in my case or whatever the case might be. And what I want to say is that if your body is telling you, no, even if you're with a partner, your husband, your beloved, and for whatever reason, your body does not want to be doing that act and you still go ahead. The body still stamps that recognizes that as a boundary rupture, which is wild.
Tim:Yeah. Even though you, cause that, that's the tricky part about consent and that's where it can be so confusing for people.
Lisa:Exactly. And this is where having a body, like body awareness and doing somatic work comes in real handy because over time we can learn to listen to our body and pause. Right. In all of those times where I just went ahead. Okay. So for me, what I was experiencing was all of this disgust, this anger, this rage, this, can we just fucking do it and get it over with? Whereas Tim, he wanted like touch and like foreplay and all of these things and I just didn't have it. I was like, oh my god, this is gonna blow me out of the water. So even though I still have access to orgasms and all of these things, I was like, can we just get this over with? Because like, I need to get out of here as quick as possible, you know? So that's what our lovemaking ended up being over time was just me not being able to, to, to hold that and to, feel embarrassed. Like that was another thing that would often come up for me was this embarrassment, you know, whereas before at the beginning phases of our relationship, I was fine with taking the helm. You know, approaching Tim and being, flirty and promiscuous and that all went away. I felt this like embarrassment around being sexual, that was like shoved down. I could literally feel within that went my voice too. So I just want to say, again, this linkage between our genitals and our, our voice, being able to, to use our voice in a way that's productive and expansive. So anyway, I was furthering this pattern and of basically not listening to my body of Yeah, just really making it even more inaccessible for me to be intimate and to feel good about sexual encounters because I was breaking these boundaries repeatedly. So anyway, there's that that I want to say, and it wasn't until I started doing this somatic work where, you know, if I was feeling uncomfortable, Tim and I would really work together a lot. Uh, around this piece and I think we really started to turn the corner, I mean, a few years ago when we started working with like Kim Anami and like really diving into, after I had done a significant amount of therapy around the sexual abuse, I was finally able to, you know, let Tim in on that. and really just stop if I was feeling uncomfortable because sometimes it didn't mean that I didn't want to be intimate. Sometimes my body needed reassurance. And so, and other times it just meant a hard no, and that's much easier to navigate than I just can't do this with you.
Tim:And then not having words to talk.
Lisa:And then not having words to talk about it. So extremely
Tim:important. There was times before we conceptualized that where I could see that you were having your own shutdown.
Yeah.
Tim:I knew logically it wasn't me, but I also felt like a perpetrator in those times. Totally. And like, how fucked up is that?
Lisa:That's fucked up, right? And also, it's part of this journey, of healing and like, for me to be able to say to Tim, honestly, like, right now, as you touch me, I'm feeling disgust. Like that's hard. But for Tim to be able to know that I wasn't feeling that towards him, it was a remembrance of something that had happened to me. Like, that's, that's huge, huge, huge, huge. And so further to that, you know, when we were on this trip abroad, it felt, really normal and natural for me just to be like, Oh my God, there's like billions of people on planet earth. So, you know, for you not to find any of them attractive or like, or want to get to know like another person, I think that, is part of the vulnerability of being in a relationship and a monogamous relationship. Like we talk about toxic monogamy and I would say that that is not being honest with each other about, you know, potentially wanting to get to know another human being or feeling attraction towards another human being and whether or not our relationship can weather that without it necessarily meaning we have to open everything up. Because as Tim shared, we do have other friendships that are dabbling in that or fully in that like polyamorous relationship. And so I think that honestly it's different strokes for different folks and that, there are seasons for everything. Like I've watched as many people, not just like our friends, but, people that I've witnessed online that have gone from, you know, monogamous to polyamory and then polyamory back to monogamous. And I think that as human beings we came here to experience, you know, different things in different ways of relating to humans. And on this journey, it's like, I was vegetarian for a while and then I wasn't. I was vegan for a year and then like I was back to eating meat and there's just different seasons of life. And so, within, you know, having said all of that, it felt really okay for me, even though I was struggling on many different levels, I still felt a certain amount of security within myself to be like, Hey, well, I'm opening this up. I don't know where this is going to lead. But like, I know that this person is, is desiring connection. This person that I love is desiring connection outside of our relationship. And I will say that, like, I'm a firm believer that we cannot count on our intimate partnership, like with our partner, if you're into monogamy. you cannot rely on your partner to get all your needs met. No, absolutely. Like there are like, uh, I, again, this is one of those points that like really has been apparent in all of my relationships is the need for sovereignty within relationship. And so while I do feel like, You know, codependency gets a bad rap because we're all codependent on each other in certain ways. Right. And there again are these different seasons of like either financial codependency or like relational codependency. But like ultimately what we're working on is this. This element of like interdependence, you know, like our partnerships, our friendships, our community, they all have to be part of that in order for our relationship to thrive. I agree. And for us to be getting our needs met on many different levels. Yeah. And so, that's a value that I have, and that's a value that I've always had in relationships because I've been in other long term relationships, and we've gone on our own separate trips. We've, we have our own separate friendships, although we have our together friendships as well. And so, important, my God, so
Tim:important. And I think what I experienced. In that time, like I said, where it became like a very uncomfortable for me to even approach another woman to even have a conversation or whatever was a, was a example of how infidelity can run rampant where this
Lisa:repressed shit. Yeah, and that's,
Tim:I'll just say that too. It's, it is about repression because whether it's because of your own values. Or how you were raised, or what your religion will shame you for or not.
You
Tim:know, the things that we push down and deny and shame within ourselves that don't get repaired, that don't have a place to talk about, that don't have permission to sift through and kind of to be able to actually explore the nuance of, those are the things that start to become this feeling of like, All or nothing.
Yes.
Tim:That's where we may find addictions. That's where we'll Lurk in the shadows in our own privacy to try and scratch that itch And then it becomes dishonest. Then it becomes spiteful. Then it becomes resentful, you know, uh, rather than bringing it out into conversation to have the permission to, and, but then it also builds this emotional intelligence, this capacity for, and then I'll just speak for myself again, where. in that point in our relationship, I started to recognize that, wow, I love to connect with women and I can feel fulfilled without it ever getting anywhere near sexual.
Yeah.
Tim:Even if there's a sexual attraction.
That's right.
Tim:But it is about being able to trust myself.
Yeah.
Tim:It is also being, it is also about remembering that Our intimacy is a huge spectrum.
Lisa:It's a huge spectrum. And the more we hide
Tim:away from it, the more we shy away from it, I think the more it can go from one extreme to the other.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:Because we don't know how to navigate it. That's right. Our impulse starts to want to take over if that makes sense.
Lisa:Well, yeah. And I mean, there's not like a huge amount of like healthy examples of what it is to embrace our sexuality fully. Right. And so there's a huge element of shame, it's not talked about, it's not out in the open where these things, they just really need to be. It's kind of just like, you know, learning to love our, our shadow. All of these different things that we push to the side, whereas if we really just looked at them and were honest with them and weren't so afraid of them, then we can integrate them into this idea of emotional intelligence, this, this idea of being able to integrate the things that we are most shameful about, you know, and that starts with having the courage to, and the capacity to have open ended conversations with people because that The truth is, that could have gone either way,
Tim:you know,
Lisa:like Tim could have gone to this yoga studio and really connected with a woman and came back to me and, potentially asked me if, he could connect more with this person,
Tim:you
Lisa:know, and then we're phased with like another decision. Can I allow for this? Is this correct for me? Is this going to destroy me or dysregulate me or whatever the case might be? Or am I able to allow space for this connection to bloom into potentially something else? And that's a whole other thing. Cause we just don't know. We don't know where any of this is going to lead. That's right. You know, but we know where repression leads.
Tim:Yeah. And I think that it can also lead to just that more primal sense of like if, if, if you're in a place where as soon as something doesn't feel right, you, you take that as a, this isn't right for me.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:It's a no.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:That becomes very binary. Yes. That's for me. No, that's not for me.
Lisa:Exactly. And
Tim:I've seen it. We've experienced it. The divorce rate speaks for itself. Yeah. And, and I think even now the dating world as well. The, the birth rate, people changing relationships, people being single longer in their life than ever before. I can't speak for anyone else, but I do often wonder, you know, is finding the, everything that is right for you in a relationship the right strategy? Because. I have seen enough of that in friends to wonder, okay, like just cause it's hard or there's a few things that are hard doesn't mean this relationship isn't right for you. That's right. Any relationship can be right for you depending on how you're willing to show up and how you're both willing to work as a team.
Lisa:Yes.
Tim:And I would say that that has been a value I've had for a long time where I've admired my grandparents for being together death to they part. Right. My parents are still together. Your parents are still together. They didn't have it easy. They've had probably plenty of opportunities to end it. Exactly. And at the same time, they haven't. And I tried to really get wisdom out of my grandparents from that. And same with my parents, but especially my grandparents before they passed. Because,
I'm
Tim:like, how did you make it work?
That's
Tim:right. You know, and I aspire to that. Where I gave you my word. That's right. And maybe that will change one day. But if that is going to be the decision, I want to know clearly, I want to see it with clear eyes because how many examples have we already shared where it's like as hard as it was, I started to recognize, wow, like I'm not seeing it for what it was. Or if I did choose to leave because of Not being in a sexual relationship with you for those few years Would I look back on that and think wow, did I really just leave the person I love because she's Emotionally and mentally almost disabled by this trauma.
Yeah,
Tim:and I left because we weren't having the type of sex I wanted
Yeah, like
Tim:I wouldn't been able to like be proud of that decision So it never didn't feel like that would have been a valid reason. Yeah, you know,
Lisa:yep I do. And, you're pointing to a lot of really important things, important points of discussion. And also, I want to touch on this idea that we have, this thing that we romanticize about, which is forever. Yeah. Forever. Sandlot people. And, I've talked about this in previous podcasts, but like, man, forever can't be the like, I don't know, what's the saying I always fuck up sayings, like the thing that we die on. The like. You know.
Tim:The hill that we die on. The hill that we
Lisa:die on because, I mean, people change.
Tim:Yes.
Lisa:And circumstances change. And longevity doesn't mean success. No. It just fucking doesn't. Doesn't. And so, what I more think about relationships is like this spiral of connection of are we still, do we still carry the same values? Do we still want the same things or are we moving in different directions, you know, completely. And for Tim and I, up until this point, even though it's been hard, We know that we were still moving in the same direction, even though, through all the trials and tribulations. Wasn't always easy to see. It wasn't always easy to see, but like I will say from my perspective that like, even though it was hard, I still felt internally I had this like little tiny, at times, it was like a fingernail of hope.
Tim:Yeah. That's fair.
Lisa:You know, especially during, we had this really rough Like a really, really rough year where we had a pregnancy loss, we lost our dog, our family dog, Tim lost his grandfather, I lost a grandfather, same grandfather, and our cat was eaten by coyotes. This happened all within like a month. And after that, it was like all of our wounds were just inflamed. Yeah. Yeah. And we could not see eye to eye on fucking anything. And it was like a never ending struggle every single day. And that was probably the hardest time in our relationship. Even though prior we'd had some really hard times, this one was like, Oh my God, are we ever going to get out of this? And,
Tim:and you wind that up into, I was going through a separation in my business and, and this isn't, this is not about any blame. This is just, We were very entwined with living on the same land as my parents. We had built a house together. We'd been very close for a number of years. And, and there was just so much that was too close. It became hard for us just to see who we were and who our relationship was outside of that dynamic. And I think we did ourselves a big favor by choosing and recognizing like.
Lisa:there's so much that's just
Tim:not working in that zone that we needed to give ourselves a chance to experience each other somewhere else for awhile. And that's where we left for six months. Yeah. And then like magic started to come back into our lives.
Lisa:Totally. We made the decision that we needed to just experience ourselves again, like each other again, ourselves and each other during, COVID. I'll just, I'll just say the word. And yeah, we decided to go out to Vancouver Island for six months. And although it didn't make like a ton of sense financially at the time, it made sense in our heart of hearts and we ended up eloping out there. And so, you know, Even though sometimes we don't know why we're pulled to do these or make these drastic changes or like pick up and leave a former life behind or whatever, there is, there's something guiding that. There's something guiding that. And I'm so happy we listened to that call because we ended up eloping and doing a, uh, Life our way getting to know each other again outside of all the shit That we were going to going through in this Incredible space known as Vancouver Island. And so the land was magic what we were feeling together was magic and It just it evoked this newfound love and respect for each other and integrity in how we really wanted to be within our relationship. So taking a chance of really like, it didn't feel like necessarily a last stitch effort, but it felt like a pretty big turning point.
Tim:I remember feeling very much like, you know, if this doesn't work, I don't know how it's going to work.
Lisa:Yeah. Yes.
Tim:You know, and I think that that just was also, in a way, relieving. It was kind of like, well, let's not worry so much about the future.
Lisa:Yeah, let's just now. Yeah.
Tim:And what a luxury it was for us to be able to like change of place at that time. Yeah. Because it helps with change of perspective like you're describing. And I guess, you know, that isn't something that would always be necessarily available to people. That's right. But what I did find that we still practice regardless of where we live now is just like more of a, more of a What do we need as a couple? Where can we go? What can we do that just brings it down to just us again?
Yeah
Tim:How can we do things where in life? We're reminded of our own sovereignty. Totally. What are the things that light us up?
Yeah,
Tim:who are the people we feel most free with? What are the types of conversations we enjoy having? What are the activities we wish we could be doing? Yes. And so all of those things can start to shift perspective again. Totally.
Lisa:Yeah. And like bringing novelty back in, and I mean, I would say as well while we're on this topic of, you know, rekindling love, rekindling connection. How important it is to see the person that's standing right in front of you for who they are right now Yeah, so that was something that we really really struggled with And I would say probably tim in his view towards me more so than my view towards tim But like when I was finally starting to feel good again And I was like stepping into my you know, queendom i'll call it and really just regaining my voice and doing things differently tim still had this past representation of me. And he was like holding me in that. And I felt suffocated. I felt like, okay, I'm ready to break free from this box, break free from these chains that have been like holding me down, chronic pain and trauma and fuck all this stuff. And here I'm now with someone that wants to hold me there. That's how it was feeling for me. I was still
Tim:in a place where I didn't believe you. Wanted certain things, or could handle certain social environments, or all sorts of things. And like, I'm so thankful that you were able to really point that out. And it just reminds me of just teachings from when we were in a ten day silent retreat together. And one of the teachings one of those nights was about how, you know, When we start to paint a picture of someone, usually that picture won't get updated.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:On a regular basis, and so it can be very easy to hold that image.
Lisa:Yes.
Tim:And it happens in all relationships. We think we know someone, even of ourselves. We think we know ourselves.
Lisa:So, I just, sorry, I want to stop you right there for a second because I have an important thing to share. Because when I was doing my attachment training, and this will make a lot of sense to probably many folks out there, once we start to form an intimate connection with someone, that picture that Tim's speaking to begins to get stored in our implicit memory. So, meaning our subconscious memory of that person so that we have a reference point.
Tim:So it's very useful. So it's
Lisa:very useful until it's not. So I want to say that that's also hardwired within us, so, it takes a certain amount of, again, retraining, rewiring to be able to access, Whoa, holy shit, that's this is a new person, not the same person as yesterday, not the same person as last month because we're implicitly remembering this person from a viewpoint of like, I've learned enough about this person. I've gathered enough information. So now I think I know them. So it takes this conversation even to a higher level of like body remembrance, which I find like, absolutely fascinating, but it's also can be super frustrating. It's like this idea also of like our bodies are miraculous and holy shit, but they also learn from repetition and from patternings, you know, and so it's like with trauma, like with all of these things that we want to change, we have to actively consciously co create that. to be able to see something, someone, some aspect of our life differently. And so again, it comes from the inside out. So although it was frustrating for me to have to keep saying like, Tim, Tim, Tim, I'm not that same person. Like I have capacity. I can be around people again. I don't want to run away to the forest. I don't want to like, dog walk because I don't want to be around people. Like, honestly, you know, like I was doing that for a while. I'm like, I'm just going to become a dog walker because I don't want to be around people. But yeah, like, so again, people can change, but it takes a certain amount of energy. It takes a certain amount of life force to be able to, you know, consistently. look at something different to consistently be able to see someone in a new light. So I kind of just tangent in there, but I wanted to really bring that element in because it makes it harder to see someone, see your partner changing, see your friendships changing. You know, have you ever experienced that where you're like, Oh my God, I'm still in this same place, but here I am seeing a good friend of mine just like explode into, you know, their highest potential. And yet you're still viewing this person as who they used to be, which is like safe to a certain degree for us. But then it doesn't allow for us to see things as they are.
Tim:Yeah. And that goes for the internal image as well.
Lisa:Yeah. Yes. It's coming from the internal image. Yeah.
Tim:And if we bring it back to the idea of let's put me in the caregiving position.
Lisa:Exactly. That was his role. For so many years. Yeah. And
Tim:so my own internal image could actually start to change in a similar way where, as you said, bringing novelty back into my life.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:Started to remind me of who I can be, the strengths that I hold, the humor that I really enjoy to have in life, the activities, martial arts, outdoors. Yeah. You know, and so those are things that I find oftentimes if we feel like we're in a relationship or in a life or in a career that's old and worn out and predictable
Lisa:and
Tim:boring because often that can happen and those are phases of life. And yet those phases of life often come with a missing, a grief. Uh, a mourning over the past.
Lisa:Yeah, or an inability to see things from a nuanced perspective. You know, being able to like take that element of mundane and see it for something else.
Tim:That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because each moment we have a new opportunity.
That's right.
Tim:You know, and that might sound, you accessible or not accessible. And ultimately it comes down to trying, you know, having, having a bit of courage to make a different decision, to be a little spontaneous, to be playful, to
Lisa:be playful, to not take
Tim:it too seriously. Right. Be willing to try some things out.
Lisa:And some
Tim:will work, some won't, you know, but I think as, as we've grown through this, I've been able to let my guard down as a caregiver more and show you more of the things that I struggle with.
That's right.
Tim:Because I feel safe and that you're able to like work with me on the things that I want to work on.
Yeah.
Tim:And that has been a great way for me to feel like supported and for you to show me the strength that you've always had.
Yeah.
Tim:Your strength has just in those moments been very preoccupied.
That's right. With
Tim:what you've been going through.
Yeah.
Tim:So in that, it's like, here we are after this, these years of kind of like, you know, kind of, I don't know, writhing around in the dark.
Lisa:Yeah. Yeah.
Tim:Uh, I guess today just, you know, I feel like we have still very young, fresh love,
you
Tim:know, after all that to come to a place of, wow, like there's still adventure. Yeah.
There's
Tim:still new things to do.
Exactly.
Tim:There's still parts of us that we can hold on to, that we don't have to let go of, that can come along for the ride if we want them to, and.
Lisa:Exactly. And within that, I also want to say that yes, I feel all those things with you. And that our sex life is just like, It's incredible. So, I, again, for all those folks out there that have experienced abuse and sexual trauma, there is light. there can be light. It can be a long, long journey to get back to that place where those things are comfortable, but it is possible. And so I want to say that I no longer feel disgust. Sometimes I still need to pause, but there's like an understanding. My body feels safe because I've now repaired ruptures within my own self of like having to break boundaries. And I've done previous episodes on boundary ruptures as well. But yeah, like anything is possible because there are certain points where that didn't feel possible. I'm like, am I ever, are we ever going to be able to connect sexually again? And again, it puts us in this like thinking of binary, like black and white, like this or that. And really like between those two points, there's this whole other spectrum of life that, that can be observed and can be lived. And so within that, we build this capacity, we have these adventures, we, make a conscious choice to do things differently and to go be playful and maybe put ourselves out of our comfort zone. And then life throws us. maybe another hard time, you know? So like, I, I want to bring this into the conversation as well because it's an important element I think for many people to really hear and, and understand, like I had a, a pain flare. So the first one that I've had in over six years. And so to give some context, I had chronic pain in my chest for almost two decades, which again, I've, I've talked about in previous episodes, but I haven't been experiencing that. And then all of a sudden out of seemingly nowhere, and again, there's all these meanings I've made up about why it appeared. And all those meanings are besides the point, it was, it was here. And so how easily my body went back into this protective mode of, holy shit, like, I cannot believe that I'm experiencing this. I didn't think I'd ever have to experience this again. And there it was. And it lasted for a longer amount of time. And, man. Over and over and over again, I just kept thinking to myself, like, I can't actually believe that I functioned like this for so long. Because again, when we're in pain for such a long time, we just, you know, we have to still do life. We have to still figure out a way to like get up in the morning, take care of our kids, take care of our dogs, go to work, whatever we have to do. But being in chronic pain, it's a disability, right? Like all of those things, you're like operating, what's the golf term? When you have like your strikes against you, or like, not strikes, I don't know. What is the thing I'm trying to say? Well, handicaps. Handicaps, yeah. And so, I, Yeah, I got to see firsthand again how so much of my energy day in and day out was going towards trying to manage this pain. And within that, I started to get this sense of like feeling disconnected from Tim again, of, you know, just kind of like feeling alone in my pain. But then also within that, I had developed this new. to still be able to not completely identify with my pain, which is fucking huge, which is actually really huge. And so within that, Tim was also able to still continue to take care of himself. And so I'll let him talk more about how he experienced that. But even though I was experiencing, excuse me, this pain flare, so much was different from previous times. So much had, changed and flowered within my own connection to myself that You know there were moments of oh fuck like what if this sticks around like what am I gonna do? But those moments were fewer and further between i'm like, okay, like i've got me I'm not going anywhere. I love you. This is really fucking scary. But like this, this body intelligence and this compassion that it had taken many, many years to develop never left. And so that actually made a world of difference in how I was actually experiencing the pain. So I'll hand it over to you.
Tim:Yeah. I mean, when it, when your pain came back there, those weeks ago, a month ago or whatever, At first it was just like, yo, that sucks. But it felt familiar and I felt like you were very clear on how you were able to communicate it, what it was that you were experiencing. And I felt a shift right there from how maybe we had experienced it before. Because when it comes to chronic pain, something that I can't visibly see, when it's happening for such a long period of time, it's hard to keep at the top of my mind.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:And so there's lots of times in the past, and even in this most recent bout, where I would find myself putting pressure on our decisions, our situation, not seeing you having the pain, having the disability. And so it becomes this process of just like overestimating, but then underestimating, overestimating what you can do and then trying also not to hold you in this incapable
Lisa:place. God, it's such a weird,
Tim:right?
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:So I could, I was more sensitive to that thinking, I think this time around. Yeah. And I was also able to really see, okay, You're still, you, you still have brightness in your eyes and love for me, love for our dog, love for our life together. And that this is hard and that it's okay for me to tell you that I am struggling with this. Because there was moments within those weeks that I gotta say, it felt just like real life. It used to.
Lisa:That's right.
Tim:I'm like, holy shit. It's like, what's
Lisa:going to happen with our life now? How do we
Tim:handle this? Yeah. How can we move forward? Can you handle certain things? If I'm not around in the future, I'm going to have to travel for work. We want to have kids. Who's going to be home? How are we going to look after things? Just go in there. Oh my God. Is this right for me? Is this right for me or not? But then just being able to come home and explain those things to you was also within my, like, well, that's the only, that's the choice. Like I can't not tell you these things, but I was also at the point of like, well. I think I could see that you were able to like, look after yourself and that I didn't have to be at your side and that it was probably, it would be a poor decision for me to be at home wishing I was somewhere else looking after my needs than to just say, babe, I know you're struggling. I got to go to jujitsu tonight. I got to go see my friend tonight. Yeah. I'll be back. Yeah.
Lisa:That's, that's actually huge because that is not something that Tim would have done in the past for himself. There, it would have been riddled with like guilt and I just need to hang around here even though I'm, you know, needing something else for myself. And it's like, the truth of it is, is like, I, I'm still going to be here in my own journey, still doing my own things. And again, the best thing that Tim could have done for himself in those moments was to go to jujitsu, was to move his body, was to take care of himself. myself, which allowed him to come home after and tell me how he was feeling and the amount of relief I felt, because like even though I knew Tim was like feeling, you know, sad about where I was and like grieving like holy shit, is this what's going to happen with this and kind of going into that state of catastrophizing a little bit. But for him to come home and be like babe, this is really hard for me. really beautiful for me because I needed to hear that. I needed to hear that he was with me in it, not trying to save me from it. So that is the biggest thing because Tim, He would always try and make light of the situation or like, come up with solutions or, you know, just think like, everything's going to be okay. Instead of just like being like this, no, like right now this all fucking sucks. This sucks. I'm grieving. You're grieving. You're in pain. Can we just be in this together? And I think that is such an important element of this. It's like when we try and take away someone's pain, that is also stopping us from feeling the depths of our own pain.
Tim:Yeah, and I've learned that My eternal optimism in those situations was such a protection mechanism. That was me basically saying, I don't want to do this. I don't want to look at this. I don't want to admit that we're having to deal with this. So I'm just going to Point at all the other positive things. Yeah. Look for all the ways we can solve this problem.
Lisa:Exactly.
Tim:Rather than just be here right now and say, man, this sucks. I wish we didn't have to do it.
Lisa:Yeah, because meanwhile, like when I'm experienced, what I experienced from those times where it's just like Tim not being comfortable looking at, like, what's right in front of us is like, look at me, like, see me, like, I'm not asking you to like, crawl around in the dumpster with me. I'm not asking you to like, feel this pain. I'm asking you to like, have your own experience and not to push anything aside, you know, and like, what a beautiful thing that is for us to learn how to truly be with another human being. Yeah. And how helpful that was. Like, I remember just feeling like my whole body was just like, Oh, I feel so much relief right now. I feel so held and the anxiety that I was feeling and all the pressure I was feeling to hold just kind of was able to dissipate and transform into, into something else. So again, I want to presence that like that's also the importance of doing this work, doing this work together and doing this work separately. Is that is the capacity to be with fucking discomfort because life is going to continually offer us reasons to be in discomfort. And that is just how life works. So our ability to be with that and to still show up in a way that's like authentic to us, honoring us while also being in partnership with another human being like. I don't think life gets much juicier than that.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. For me, it felt like the difference between, like you said, like trying to save you from it versus going through it together.
Exactly.
Tim:Because when I was able to voice like these are the real things I'm worried about and they're big, they're big and scary. But as soon as they were on the table, it really immediately felt like, well, of course, like, of course, if we're a team, we can work it out. We will have ways to solve this and we don't have to figure it all out right now.
Lisa:Yeah. Well, and it gives all people permission to, again, this idea of like, I'm not all like joy and butterflies Like I am also You know a menstruating emotional, you know traumatized woman Who you know, I accept those things about myself I accept that I am both light and dark and everything in between and so You allows for, so much more of my own self expression to come through where nothing's kind of, you know, put on the back burner. And so when you have a couple of people in relationship that are both willing and able to, Embrace all of these aspects of self, it just leads to more wholeness, like within ourselves and within our relationship so that I can freely express, when I'm feeling sad, when I'm feeling tired and not project, because like the projections will still come, they'll still be like things where, I don't know. We were talking about this the other day. We took a trip to Drumheller and had like a disagreement and Tim was reflecting on how, you know, it was his fault that it was raining outside. And I was like, listen, that's actually not what the fight was about, but it's like this, we're still human. We're still going to have all of these. Things that we get pissed off about and there'll be times where our capacity is low and you know all of that aside we still need to be able to give each other passes for those things and to be able to, you know, when we can look at those things within ourselves, it makes it way easier for us to be compassionate and empathetic towards the struggles and the triumphs of others because we've witnessed them for ourselves. And so, yeah, when Tim was unwilling to really look at, you know, okay, these are the things I want out of life. And potentially these things may not be possible.
Tim:Yeah.
Lisa:Like that's, you have to be able to look at those things. Yes. Because whether or not we want to look at them, that's reality, you know? And so coming face to face with reality takes a certain amount of like self acknowledgement.
Tim:Yes. And within that too is exactly the same kind of point is. When I, so before I came home to tell you what I was really worried about, it had already been maybe three weeks of you having this pain and not sleeping well at night and me kind of wrestling with like, oh, like, how much do I need to be beside you and helping you versus how much can you do on your own, all this stuff. As soon as I voiced what I was concerned about with you. I instantly could see within myself. I'm like, well, how am I going to handle this?
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:And what are, what are the things that I need to work on so that I am ready to handle those things?
Yeah.
Tim:And so it, it did kind of turn the mirror both ways.
Lisa:Yeah. Self responsibility.
Tim:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, just cause you have pain and chronic illness. means that, wow, yeah, maybe you won't be able to do certain things. But also, what am I doing in our life, in my relationship? What am I leaning on? What are the things I ignore? What are the ways that I don't show up? It's like, it brought all those things to the table. So in that way, it felt like kind of even the playing field again, so that we could be a and, and not look at it from a perspective of like, Is this not right for me because you struggle?
Yeah,
Tim:it's just like no, no, no we Struggle and I am uncomfortable with certain things. Exactly. You can support me If I let you.
Lisa:Totally, yeah, and I think this furthers into this idea of like roles within the relationship you know and how we can quite often, or at least I find, that usually there's this like complex of, okay, there's the one person with the most amount of trauma and the other person is looked at as like handling everything, you know, and how disempowering is that because the truth is that we all have our bag of shit that we're carrying around. It's just, some people have a heavier bag of shit. And so, when I started to really just take off that role of like traumatized person, which I I wore for a really long time, a really long time. And this idea of like, I will be a victim no matter what, you know, there's a certain, there comes a certain point in time where, in order to step into this new person that you want to become, you have to start looking at Yeah. And when, when trauma and victim becomes your whole identity, man, that's a slippery slope and I've been on it. I've been on it.
Tim:And when you look at the victim triangle example, there's like the victim and the rescuer.
Lisa:That's right. And
Tim:like, how often have I tried to hold myself to that rescuer? Rescuer,
Lisa:yeah.
Tim:and not, and also failed to recognize the ways that I was slipping up, the ways that I was struggling.
Lisa:Yeah.
Tim:And the ways that, as that role and responsibility piece goes, it's like, wow, like actually there is so much that you do to support this relationship. Totally. To keep things in order, to keep me in check, to hold me to a higher regard. Yeah. You know, like you put up with a bunch of shit that is probably not the most ideal. But it doesn't mean that it's a existential to the relationship either. That's right. Right. And, and I think on that role and responsibility piece is like, here you are also holding down a household while also being, so you also not only have been the victim, but you're also kind of like being responsible and handling a lot of life.
Yes.
Tim:So credit to you because I think It's never that we're in just one quadrant or one part.
Yeah.
Tim:Yeah. Whereas for me too, I was being the rescuer while also accumulating all of these unmet needs and all of this trauma, this complex emotional neglect that I was getting, like, of things that I wasn't allowing for in my life.
Exactly.
Tim:Yeah.
Yeah.
Tim:So
we're
Tim:never in one place only, I think is what I'm trying to say. Exactly. We can always provide support and we can also always receive,
Lisa:receive and give support equally. Yeah. And I think it's so important to be able to acknowledge those things because, we can spend a lot of years in these roles and, We're multi dimensional, multi passionate people that, you know, have many, many, like, uh, a variety of gifts and talents. And when we put ourselves and others into those boxes, it becomes really, really hard to see the fullness of, of who we are as individuals and within our partnerships. Ah, babe, so many things. I mean, we have a lot to share and I feel like this could be an ongoing thing where maybe we just pop on and, you know, talk about relationship stuff because yeah. this podcast episode can end up being like two and a half hours. Yeah. Uh, which is fine, but also I, yeah, I'm feeling the need to start to wrap up here. Just wondering if there's any more wisdom nuggets that you want to share?
Tim:I guess short of reiterating or echoing anything we've already said, I think the, the key piece that I'd like to highlight here is that. Just because you believe you're in a certain situation doesn't mean that's how it is.
Yeah,
Tim:and that Changing your own perspective is always available And that if you believe that something isn't right for you Before you validate that ask yourself. What am I doing? That's not right for me, too because oftentimes There's that level of self responsibility that can change how the relationship looks all together, you know, and so It's that's a big piece. That's that's kept me here in this relationship is recognizing how much I'm responsible for my own happiness the ways that I fulfill myself and that Anytime I felt lack in the relationship it often isn't because of you.
Yeah
Tim:You know, so I don't have anything to run from other than myself in those examples. And so Thank you for You know just being the teammate that you are in this because that's what it takes You know is that we both continue to want to choose to work on these things together
Lisa:Sage wisdom from my very wise loving husband Thank you so much for joining me today, babe. I Yeah I honor you and revere you and love you very much. So thanks for being willing to talk about some super vulnerable and uncomfortable things live for people to hear. Yeah, it was,
Tim:it was scary coming in, but as we said, you talk about it, bring it to the light, it becomes manageable. So thank you for having this, for spreading the word that you do and opening up so many people's stories so far in all these episodes.
Lisa:Thank you. Okay. We're gonna, we're gonna call it closed now. And thanks again listeners for tuning in and being part of this journey. Bye for now.
Tim:Bye
bye.
Lisa:As always, thank you so much for listening. Life is busy. So it means even more that you're carving out time in your day to be here. Listen, we've got so many great episodes coming up, so please make sure you subscribe to follow along on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And for those of you who like to watch your podcasts, we are now uploading them to YouTube. And if you appreciate these episodes, please do us a favor and leave a rating or a review and share it with anyone you think could benefit. See you again next Wednesday.