Let's start the New Year 2024 off with a bang and getting your PR efforts aligned with your marketing! This week, we've got guest Stephen Karaolis who founded PR agency The Pear Agency, focused on building high-growth software brands. He's also a fractional marketing consultant who had a lot to share with host Melissa about:
Learn more about Nut Tree: https://nuttr.ee/
Let's start the New Year 2024 off with a bang and getting your PR efforts aligned with your marketing! This week, we've got guest Stephen Karaolis who founded PR agency The Pear Agency, focused on building high-growth software brands. He's also a fractional marketing consultant who had a lot to share with host Melissa about:
Learn more about Nut Tree: https://nuttr.ee/
Hi 2 pizza marketers and welcome back to the show. It's your host, Melissa, with you today. And I have a guest that I have had the. Benefit of working with, not just knowing and talking with, but working with this man and his agency have done some great work for my past company. I am pleased to introduce you to Stephen Karaolis. He is the founder and CEO of Pear the Agency. I am going to ask you about that name, by the way but he is also a fractional marketer currently. So he is not only someone who's going to help us learn today about the world of PR and what it means for small team marketing, but he's actually living some of that small team marketing life right now. So welcome, Stephen. Tell us a bit about what you're what you've got your hands in these days.
Stephen Karaolis:Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I actually had a question. Has anyone ever brought pizza onto the show? Is that like a thing?
Melissa Moody:Not yet because we are still running a little scrappy because that's the way we roll here. But I have
Stephen Karaolis:visions. I almost got some pizza just to celebrate the the occasion of being on the show. I mean, I love it. I'd love to
Melissa Moody:like send people pizza or my hope is that in person pizza parties, right? Like if we
Stephen Karaolis:have a pizza party. Yeah. So your question was a little bit about myself, right? Yeah. The, the agency, what I'm up to currently yeah, so I've owned Pear the Agency since March of 2018. I've been in public relations my entire career. I started in house at Canon USA. I actually launched their North American headquarters which was a really fun way to start my career. And then went on to KWT Global, which is about a 50 person agency in New York, was working on primarily B2B and health tech clients there, and then was running a team of five, working on four to five different accounts. And. One day it just kind of clicked for me. Hey, this is an agency within an agency Maybe it's time for me to to break out and and do my own thing so I did that I I had planned on quitting like three different times going into the office and kind of chickened out but one day I actually did it and started my own agency in my living room and it's It's been great ever since. No, no looking back, really. And I was telling you a little bit the other day, but one of my clients that I had a really great experience with has actually taken me on a fractional role to do some, some marketing for them. More traditional types of marketing. A little bit less PR, but I actually still am doing PR for them. So I'd love to get into that as well. But a lot of things on my plate, really exciting things. But primarily PR and comms with, I would say like 20 to 30% just more marketing tactics baked in to my. To my career and role and day to day right now.
Melissa Moody:Yeah, we are going to get into that slippery slope between PR and marketing and how you've, how you've rolled down it recently. But I want to start with just PR for PR sake. I think a lot of marketers. You know, it's marketing. Everybody thinks they can do marketing, right? You hear PR and we go, yeah, yeah, I know what PR is, or we have a concept of what it is. But from the first time that you and I sat down together, I knew that you were bringing a area of expertise that I think is really niche. A quick metaphor for everyone listening. I, I, and maybe I've shared this with you, Steven, before I, when you think about marketing, you think about the tasks in owning a house. There's a lot of stuff you can do yourself and there's some jobs. Where you just need to hire the pro because they have the equipment. They have the knowledge. I compare PR to tarring my driveway. Could I do it myself? Maybe. Is it going to get sloppy and look crappy? Yeah. So when Stephen and I first started working together, that's what we talked about, which is. Why should I, as a small team marketer, why should I pay for it? What is the value that it's going to bring to a small growing company? So Pear the Agency, I think your tagline is content led growth for B2B companies. I mean that in itself says, yes, I need this. Tell us a little bit about why and what you've heard from these companies for B2B software companies. Why do they really need PR expertise versus just, I'm going to do it myself in that early stage?
Stephen Karaolis:I mean, hundreds of ways I can answer that question, but I think really when it comes to PR right now, I actually think PR is having a tremendous renaissance. And the reason I think that is because. When it comes to product offerings and services, there's so much competition, right? And, and when you really break it down in terms of the actual product. Is there really a big difference between Google Meet and Zoom, right? It's, it's, yes, there are different companies and maybe one has a feature that I like a little bit more than the other. But when it comes down to it, you could really accomplish a job with, with either one, right? And I think there is so much of that right now, especially in B2B SaaS, which is primarily what I focus in or focus on. And look, every company has their own unique story to tell. Every company has a little bit of a different differentiator when it comes to a product, but that story and the approach and the thought leadership is really where you can start to. To pull ahead, make a difference or, and, and I tell this to a lot of companies that I work with, if you're kind of at the bottom, looking up at the rest of the competitors in the space, PR can be a huge competitive advantage because you're actually getting your thoughts out there into the space. And resonating with folks and bringing them into your world and, and kind of educating them on what you're all about through trusted vetted sources, which is a rarity these days as, as it relates to media publications, right? Like good, high quality media publications can be a huge differentiator. So you mentioned it's like the tar on the driveway. I think, yes, like that makes sense to me, but I think PR nowadays. You're actually getting people into your home, right? It used to be the facade. It used to be, hey, we just need to put up a good, put up a good facade, get some stories out there. Plot the logos on our site, right? Tech as seen in New York times for whatever. Yeah. Everyone used to do that. Right. But now, because there's so much more emphasis on brand, there's so much more emphasis on what is this company actually about it's more so inviting folks into your home and showing them your collection, showing them your, your, your kind of like, like special things about your home. Right. That's when people understand that and they start to do PR at a high level, they see the difference and it makes such a big impact. And I'm seeing that now you know, this fractional role that you mentioned, I brought my PR expertise to this fractional role and I can see the impact of PR within the marketing stack and within a fast growing. B2B SaaS company and how much an effect really, really solid, high quality public relations can have on the growth of that company and the interest in that company. It's, I think one of the most valuable marketing tools out there that's so underrated and underutilized and frankly, pretty easy. Like if you know how to do it, it's not very hard to, to get some PR wins on at least a quarterly basis as. As pretty much anybody that's, that's doing anything can do PR. So, long winded answer to your question, but that's really like my, my stance on PR right now and what I think it's all about.
Melissa Moody:Oh, it's the perfect perspective and I cannot wait because I've already written down Five more questions as followups. So first, first question I have for you is a lot of my thinking around PR when we first sat down was around what you mentioned around the Forbes tech crunch, whatnot. There is still this element of formal PR for the sake of, I want to call it legitimacy. Like you said, anyone. Put stuff out on the internet. But when you have a trusted media source, as you said, speaking about your company, tell us what that adds. What does it still add in today's world? I mean, we're probably already different from a year ago, but what does that trusted media source component of PR still bring to companies?
Stephen Karaolis:Yeah. I mean, journalists are gatekeepers, right? And especially the good ones. And especially the ones that those larger publications PR pros and, and folks in the industry. Often refer to public relations as earned media. And there's a reason it's because you have to actually earn it. You cannot buy it and some publications, unfortunately, have blurred this line a little bit. I'm not going to call anybody out, but you know, sometimes if you, if you grease one wheel, the other one starts to turn a little bit easier somehow, right? And I am of the mindset, I don't really think there's anything wrong with that, right? These publications have to make money. I think the, the health. And operational, just like the operational health of these, these media publications is, is important to society. Right. So if we're giving them revenue and that revenue is, is utilized in a tasteful way by the outlet, by the media outlet or the publication, I'm all for that. Right. And, and I'll tell clients Hey, if we can spend a little bit, it might open up some eyes on the earn side. And this actually just happened with one of my clients. They did a lead Gen Y paper and it was. Roughly like 10, 000 for the lead gen white paper, which they did get a lot of high quality leads from. And I believe some of them converted. So it was paid for in the end. And I actually use that, that downloadable asset in my pitch to the journalists at that publication as a knowledge resource. Right. And obviously there's a little bit of gamesmanship there. Right. But at the end of the day, it's the best resource for them to learn about the company. Hey, by the way, it's actually vetted by your paid sponsored team. It's kind of the way things work these days. But the earned component is still very much the, the lead. It's still very much how things are done. But if you're creative, you can start to kind of mix these worlds together in a way that's advantageous for, for your efforts as a marketer.
Melissa Moody:Yeah, let's talk about that. So I think we, you're bringing up kind of the dirty word for it is the pay to play, right? And there are some things where when you pay to play in, in the right place, it can, as you said, it starts to get you out there. Other journalists pick it up. It can, it can be very powerful. I want to go a little deeper on what you said about giving. Giving media sources some value. So the white paper, I think we did that when I was at Gated as well, right? We had a report and we took it to them. We were like, here's some data that you might want to write about. It's something that's actually giving them meat on the bone to write a story with. What are some of the other things that small marketing teams might have of value? What are the other things that a PR agency would say, Oh, you've got this, I can shop that around. What are those things?
Stephen Karaolis:Super good question. So the way I approach that is value needs to be audience driven. You cannot as a marketer say, this is valuable. I think this is going to be the best thing ever. And put so many resources into it and go out and say, this is it. And then it flops, right?
Melissa Moody:I mean, we all try. We all try. We've all done that at some point, but yes.
Stephen Karaolis:So that's why I think full stack marketing and this concept of the two pizza marketer. That's an advantage because you have your hands on all the different components of the marketing stack, right? And what I do is I test messaging across all. Areas of all different marketing channels. And then if I find that one is bubbling up, so let's say something's bubbling up on LinkedIn, right? And I post something and it pops. And it's getting a ton of engagement and it really just struck a chord with people. Hmm, that could be a media pitch. That could be an idea for a white paper. Or the other way around, right? Hey, we had this media pitch. Reporter loved it. Going to turn it into a few different LinkedIn posts. So I think that constant, like just juggling between tactics, you have to use that as an advantage as a small market or not a disadvantage, not something that that's viewed as a, as like a hindrance because if you're looking at a big company, the, you know, someone might be doing the community, someone might be running the community, someone might PR and. Who knows if those people are talking as much as they should. So for me and in, in my operations, like it's. It's a huge advantage. But I want to make sure I answer your, your question specifically. What was your exact question? Well, it
Melissa Moody:was, what are the things that a small team marketer might have? You know, if, if they, let's say they're sitting down, they're bringing on a PR agency, right? They're not going to do it in house. They're saying we're in a PR team. What are the things that they could serve up to that PR team that the PR team would go, Ooh, I can sell this. Like I
can
Stephen Karaolis:get this in. The things that are resonating across your other channels are a great place to start yeah that that's huge. The other thing that I find to be very helpful is When you're an executive like when we were working together I was working directly with you and andy right and and typically when you start a company As a founder or you're you're very high up in a company. There's a reason you got there, right? and you got there because You're either extremely confident in your abilities to carry out a service, or you've worked your way to that level, like just climbing the corporate ladder, right? So that means something to me as a PR professional. It means that your perspective and and the value that you're, you're providing to that industry is important and deserves to breathe, right? It deserves to be discussed. It deserves airtime as a PR pro. You have to be able understand those, those messages and those skills that the executive can possibly provide to your program. If, and look, we're, we're talking about small marketing teams. So you might be hiring like a freelance PR professional, or you might be trying to do it yourself, or you might be maybe offloading it to a more junior person on your team that might not know that there is this treasure trove of insights within the executives mind, right. Or, or day to day efforts. So it's. Then when you as the executive need to make a point to earmark and note things that could be PR worthy, right? You kind of have to train that PR muscle. And I think that muscle, I would say for 95, I will go as bold as to say 95. For 95% Of business leadership does not exist. And it is just very, very sad for me because if, if they were able to just work that muscle a little bit, they could see tremendous results. And I can get into like some tactics on how to do that, but it's just like, Oh, that's something that I can share with a reporter. That's something that could be a news story. That's something that could be a sponsored article. That's something that could be a podcast episode. If you're able to just train your brain to think like that, you'd be shocked on a weekly basis how many things could be PR worthy at your company. Any, anytime you hire an executive, PR worthy, right? Any new product announcement. Anytime you, obviously raise funding, but any sort of like inch forward could be a PR story. So it's, it's something that I think is very underutilized. I think
Melissa Moody:tactically, and I, I do want to dig a little bit more into the training for the execs and the running in there, but we are, so first of all, this is starting one of those points where things bleed over because you have social teams trying to get, founder brand and executive social selling, right? We're building these brands online really bleeds into it, but just to sum up, I think what we said is if you're a marketer on a small team and you're thinking about doing PR or working with a PR freelancer or agency, you have got. To essentially create a parking lot of potential PR stories. And those can come from, if I remember. It can come from, you know, data reports, value in the content. It can come from the topics you see that are resonating, which is a great point. As a marketer, you know what's popping and what's not. And then it can also come from your executives. It can come from really looking at the stories of the executives. where they've been, what they are noteworthy for in the first place. Those are a great place for anyone listening to just go start making a list. Let's dive in right now to one more question that stems off of that, which is if you're going down that executive route, and you've seen this because you're building executive presence, not just in PR, but on social, I'd like to talk a bit about how do we get those 95 percent of executives to do it well, to do it right, or at least to do it Fairly decently.
Stephen Karaolis:Well, you have to kind of see the ball to hit the ball, right? And that's the first step. And in this instance, what you have to see is who are the journalists that are relevant to my space? If you don't understand the journalists that are covering your industry, You won't be able to communicate with them or or obviously, you know, start a relationship or even better get get them to write about you so simple media lists and is the 1st place to start. Well, the 1st place to start is actually identifying that this is something that you're interested in. Right? But once you've done that, and I, I would love to see you Don't really know anyone who wouldn't be interested in getting top tier news coverage on a frequent basis. So hopefully that is something you're interested in, right? A medialist, to step two, building a medialist, you know, I think a lot of people think, Oh my god, a medialist, this is going to be 200 people. It's going to take me five hours. I don't even know where to start. I don't have their emails. That's not it anymore. It used to, like, there was this concept in PR called spray and pray. And we used to build 200, 300 person medialists and literally just hit send and fingers crossed. And, you know, hopefully someone writes about us. But that's not the case anymore. Now you can have a medialist of three journalists. Three to five. I would actually say under five is the ideal way to start building a medialist. If you think about the work we were doing today. There were really three reporters that were covering that space very, very specifically diligently, day after day. Those are the folks you want to get in touch with. I would recommend starting to read their stories and get into their flow, right? I, I liken PR to, or media relations, I should, I should say, to a, to a dinner party, right? And what a lot of Companies do is they show up to the dinner party and there's a conversation going and maybe they show up mid mid main course. Right? So there's already like a lot happening. They've been there for hours. They had some drinks. It's a good time happening. Right? And you show up. middle of dinner and you're like, hey, has anyone seen this? And it's like, whoa, we're not even talking about that. Like, who are you? You just came in, like, maybe say hello first, right? Yep. Like, yeah, like, like, ease into it a little bit. And that's But that's how most companies do PR. They think, oh my god, we have this thing, it's so important to us. Journalists, you write about this, you should cover this, why aren't you covering this? And this is our first email that we've ever sent you, right? It doesn't work like that. Like, these are relationships. It's called media relations for a reason, right? You have to build these relationships, you have to befriend these reporters. We had an event last week for this, this company I'm doing fractional marketing for, and I invited a really, really interesting and, and fast rising reporter in the space, she moderated our panel and I told her, I said, Hey, look, you know, if you can get us some coverage here, that would be great. But if you can't, that's okay. And that's a big deal because now the next time I email her, she knows that I'm not going to. Going to put any sort of pressure on her. It's more of a two way dynamic and a true relationship versus, Hey, I'm going to send you this news and pressure you to cover it. And then I'm not going to talk to you again until we have any, like, more new news that just doesn't really get the job done. So if you're an executive, the best thing you can do is. Find three journalists that are covering your space, set up alerts for them, and maybe even bookmarks of their pages on their publication, and read their materials. See what they're all about. Maybe you actually don't like the way they write. Maybe you don't like the way they cover companies, and that actually may have saved you. Essentially a bad article, right? Versus versus just pitching that huge list and seeing who covers that space and hoping that they write about you. So you're actually in the know. You can also these days, this this wasn't necessarily something that was you know, when I was coming up through college and things like that common practice, but now I do it a lot. I connect with reporters on LinkedIn and I have LinkedIn messages going with them and I, I hit them up and pitch them in LinkedIn. And you know, we, we just talk casually about different things. And that's a great way to do it. If you're an executive, right? Like, those 3 reporters connect with them on LinkedIn, say, Hey, you cover my space. We're really interested in your reporting. And then you know, another thing you do is set up a coffee, set up a coffee, set up a drink, whatever it is, and actually get to know these reporters. Reporters are people. They are not you know, some sort of robot that is going to do whatever you want. So, you know, and the other, the last thing I'll say on this is like, You have to review a reporter in terms of they represent their audience, right? So that one person could represent millions of eyeballs It is so Valuable and important to have these relationships and honestly People think PR is expensive. I actually think it's extremely cheap. You're getting potentially millions of impressions for one article. And if you're doing that, you know, two to three times a month, that compounded over time could be much cheaper than giving all your money to Google. Right? So it's, it's, and you're making real relationships, real world impact, real world connection. So I, look, I am very much a proponent of Doing this. And I think back to your original question, like, how can executives start to do this? Start small, you know, start small, start making relationships and you'll see those, those efforts compound over time.
Melissa Moody:I love that. And I think the marketers, you know, our audience who aren't executives themselves, I think you can facilitate that beautifully, right? Like you go, you find, you find that shortlist and you, you sit down with your execs and you prep them and you say, these are some reporters. We would like to get close to, we're not hard pitching. I will also add one thing that you coached us through that I think was really, really strong is. The value in actual PR training for executives. So when you start having the execs going into calls that are, okay, we've moved past relationship building. We're actually telling them what we're doing. Your agency did a beautiful job of helping us know, you know, what to talk about and what not to talk about. I think I will always remember that line where you were like, everybody doesn't care about your baby as much as you do, right? And that's good. That's a good learning. Tell me a little bit about, I want to go for just one more question around the blurring of where the traditional model of PR overlaps into these areas of marketing. We chatted just a bit about kind of that social presence, Both following and building relationships with people, but also the testing, the messaging that you put out, seeing what resonates where else it does a marketer really need to think about getting their house in order. That would support good PR that would support getting picked up in these bigger ways.
Stephen Karaolis:Yeah. I mean, the messaging, just having a, a good grip on your messaging as a company is. Really step one, right? And I feel like even if you're not doing PR, that's extremely important within the marketing realm as well, Because no one wants to be sold anymore. It's much more about community. It's much more about, do I align with this brand? Do we share values? Do I want to give them my time? Do I want to give them my resources in terms of financial resources or sharing of potentially data? All those different, different elements that come with actually, you know, partnering with someone and, and taking on, you know, taking on clients or, or you know, leveraging SAS tools, whatever it is, there's an exchange of, of value. There's an exchange of information. Which people are very particular about right now, right? So if you're just out there saying buy our stuff buy our stuff buy our stuff No one's going to want to buy your stuff But if you're out there saying hey, here's how we can help you. We know this is your problem right now or Hey, you could be dealing with this or maybe you might even be dealing with this soon Did you consider that? And it's like, Oh, wow, I didn't even consider that. That could be a problem, but I could definitely see it being a problem. Then you have a dialogue going on. That could be true on a webinar. That could be true on a white paper. It could be true on a social media post. So all of those things require you to not be salesy and to prioritize really high quality messaging. And your POV, your thought. We used to have this saying at KWT when I worked there. To be a thought leader, you need a thought, right? So, like, you need something that you're going out there with. It's like, hey, this is what we think, right? And PR, if you're, like I said, kind of bouncing between those tactics, PR will always, always puts you in your place when it comes to how good your messaging is, right? Because with LinkedIn, you can get it out there with, you know, whatever social or if it's a, if it's a white paper or, you know, there are a variety of Google ads. All right, maybe it's performing decently this, this messaging, but. If you send it to, there is nothing that's just more, like, ah, frustrating. You send out a pitch to, you know, 20 people and it's just crickets, and you follow up and it's more crickets. But, you know, that's the time when you really have to realize that, hey, this, this maybe isn't as interesting as we thought. Because... Look, there's a chance that the reporters are busy. There's a chance that they just missed it. Or they're the wrong
Melissa Moody:audience, right? Maybe you're targeting reporters to one audience and you should be focused on, yep, yep, might've missed it.
Stephen Karaolis:Yes I mean, the, the interesting, I'll tell you a quick story of how this is and why it's important to hire a professional. So back to just the messaging point, I work with this one company and, and they're offering is very unique to their space and obviously they are, you know, just gung ho about it, right? They think it's the most amazing thing ever. And honestly, for that space, it really is. And. I had pitched this out, uh, probably for, three to four weeks at this point, and it was very, very quiet in terms of the replies, and then something happened in the news Travis Kelsey started dating Taylor Swift. And I was like, how can I apply this to media buying? And the average person would not be able to make that connection. In my mind, I was like, okay, if you're buying media and you have predetermined spots, and I'm not sure how familiar everyone is with, with media buying, but basically, you know, on a quarterly basis or an annual basis, you say, all right, we're going to buy this, this package from this. You know, connect TV platform or this website and that's our package, right? And we're just going to run that. But what if your brand wants to just jump on something like this Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsey thing, like a many brands did, right? Heinz came out with something, a bunch of brands jumped on it. So if you don't want to be caught flat footed and you want to run some ads that have to do with this cultural kind of phenomenon, how do you do that from a media buying perspective? So we went out with a pitch on that and got a lot of opens, got a lot of replies, and that was what I called a wrapper. And then the meat, the meat of the pitch was the exact same pitch that I had been going out with for a month. That was getting no interest. Yeah. And I got them on the phone with a, with probably the number one reporter in their space. He said, I'm writing this tonight. It's going out tomorrow. And coincidentally, he didn't even include. The Travis Kelsey Taylor Swift thing he, by the time he learned about the company, he was just like, I'm writing a full feature on you guys. No questions asked. So that's when the professional element comes in. There was just another a different client. I had got them an interview and this client said, Hey, we want to email the reporter directly. After this is done. And I said, fine, fine, no problem. Easy going, Steve. You know, I've been doing this for over 10 years now. I don't want any problems. I'm like, sure, go ahead. So, they emailed this reporter, and they followed up, and the reporter's not answering now. And I looked at their emails, and they left out some, some critical lines that I always include. When you're emailing with a reporter, you never want to leave it as a yes or no. You always want to just create conversation and dialogue. Yes. So, they just kind of left it as like a dead end, and now it's kind of at a dead end. So, to answer your question, and that was a very long answer to your question, but... The messaging is critical across all marketing efforts, and it doesn't have to be much, and you can use ChatGPT, by the way, to help you with this, right, and say, hey, I'd like to develop a messaging one cheater for my brand, dump in all the current copy you have on the site, whatever your thoughts are, and it'll help you organize the whole thing. But messaging is critical across all these different tactics. and it, it's the, the earned and the media relations is the ultimate validator of that messaging. So it's a good test, good testing ground to, to get after it and, and kind of see, see where you're at and, and see how different things resonate. But yeah, the, the professionalism comes in when there are these little tricks to bring at the extra mile that, that really can make a difference between. Not getting coverage or maybe getting sparing coverage and, and getting, you know, good features consistently, but some coverage is better than none. So I would still say, even if you're not hiring a professional, this is still definitely something that you should, you should do, but I don't mean to ramble, but you also made a point for about. Hey, like, what not to say, right? And one point I'll make on that, like, if you do decide, hey, I want to do something on PR, and I'm going to start contacting these reporters kind of like a word of caution I, I, I would share is. You have to be careful when you're talking to reporters, because for them, it's an exchange of information. It is not a friendship. And, look, you can evolve your relationship with a reporter to resemble a friendship. But at the end of the day, they care about their readers, and they care about their journalistic integrity, or they wouldn't be a journalist. So you have to be very careful not to get kind of lulled into a very friendly conversation where you're sharing things that you shouldn't share or you're, you're kind of you're, you're giving too much that that's not out yet and you have to walk things back. So it's very much an exchange of information. But it, it should be done in a In a friendly, respectful, engaging just, just kind of collaborative way. But there's a nuance there that I just wanted to make sure that I, that I share, because if people are going to be going out there doing this, it's, it's something that they should know.
Melissa Moody:Hmm. That's a great lesson. And, you know, I often on the show, we asked about what your marvelous mess was. And I think you kind of just gave us stories a little bit about both, right? There's some, some ways that people could go really, really wrong. So thank you for sharing a little bit more about how we can all do it right and do it better. And as you said, just do a little bit and do a little bit as best as we can
Stephen Karaolis:and start doing our little goes a long way. A little goes a long way. So I
Melissa Moody:know we need to let you go. Thank you for all of your expertise and your time. I know you have much more to share, but before I let you go, tell our listeners where they can find you find more about, you know, pair of the agency or whatever you're working on. Any shout outs?
Stephen Karaolis:Yeah. Pear the Agency. com. I also have a newsletter, the exclusive newsletter. com. If you're looking for PR insights you know, follow me on LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn. Would love to chat with anybody there as well. Well,
Melissa Moody:I will be chatting with you again soon because you are one of my favorite folks. And I think I did get a full scale Stephen laugh at the beginning too. I think we got the full my favorite laugh of yours. So thanks for sharing with our audience. We're really appreciative of diving into a topic that... Sometimes many of us get a little nervous
Stephen Karaolis:around. Yeah, nothing to be nervous about. And if you're nervous, hey, hit me up. I'll I'll walk you through it.