Calculus of IT - Season 2 Episode 13 - Industry 5.0

.....aaaand that's a wrap folks.  It’s the end of the season, the end of an era, and maybe the last human-hosted podcast you’ll ever hear. In our Season 2 finale, Nate, Mike, and Kevin take everything we’ve learned about autonomy and decision-making power—and push it into the future with a deep-dive into Industry 5.0.

What’s after digital transformation? What happens when the data giants own 80% of the world’s information? And how do you lead when technology is evolving at ludicrous speed?

In this finale:

• Demystifying Industry 5.0: Why it’s not just “4.0 with extra steps”—and why it’s about human-centricity, sustainability, and resilience
• Real talk on the data economy: What happens when autonomy and purpose collide, and what IT leaders can do to keep their teams, their values, and their sanity
• Surviving the next wave: Practical advice for IT leaders on strategy, people, and using your independence for something meaningful
• Hope for the future: Building organizations that thrive—even as technology, data, and society change faster than ever

We wrap it up with our biggest question yet: What’s the point of autonomy if you’re not using it for something bigger?

Thanks for listening, for joining the conversation, for the Slack debates, the five-star reviews, the merch, and the beer. We’ll see you after a well-earned break for Season 3 - with new topics, new rants, and maybe a whole episode on why PowerPoint is the most insidious tool ever invented.

Until then: Be nice. Stay purposeful. And keep fighting for autonomy - one decision, one team, and one bold move at a time.

Transcript

Season 2 - Episode 13 - Final - Audio Only

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AI Trance Bot: [00:00:00] Our world where signal, we compute our

dreams, data streams and by make us

the,

the.[00:01:00]

DJ Crispotek: I love it, man.

I love it.[00:02:00]

I like him in 2002. Throw back it back, bring it back, bring it back.

Bring it back. Just[00:03:00]

influenced.

Well, according to two, the next[00:04:00]

disposition is a these little jeans. By the midnight, I mean you're,

you're on a, a classy list to keep an attitude. Nice. I got the

orchestra in. Yeah. You or probably should have beat match this.

'cause I realize no one will use it because it's off now. Beat count.

So version this, this is all, it's all about the come down.

You gotta build them back up. Underworld. That's right. Well this is

very Underworldy. Yeah. Our Ali, Ali and Fila midsection. You just hit

them right back in the face with a base drop.

Mike Crispin: Yeah. This fade sucks. Is a single, but there's a longer

version of it too. It doesn't really have as many lyrics, but

DJ Crispotek: wow. Wow. Cool. Ball inspired.

Mike Crispin: Thanks for listening to [00:05:00] it, man. It's good

stuff. It's a lot of fun doing it. Now I'm making a, a video with it,

which is ought get me in all sorts of trouble.

Nate McBride: Listen, the idea of copyright is gone. I mean, you can

just do whatever the fuck you want now. I mean, everyone knows this.

Well, there's no more rule. There's no more rules.

Mike Crispin: Well it's, it's basically like it's on, uh, it's on

Beatport and that that's probably, maybe 10 seconds of it gets used

somewhere and it's, um, have beatport is have you been on Beatport

before? Just like, just to tag along. We investigate. It's pretty

amazing.Nate McBride: No, I haven't been on Beatport yet. It's

Mike Crispin: pretty interesting. It's really more so for DJs that are

taking content and putting them into sets and stuff. It's pretty

interesting

Nate McBride: stuff. Well, that, well, that, that was, that ladies and

Gentleman was DJ Chris Botte. DJ Chris Botte. Was that that what,

what's your DJ name now?

Mike Crispin: I don't have a dj. It's, [00:06:00] that's still, uh,

Chris. That's my, uh, that's my, alright, so

DJ Crispotek: it's

Mike Crispin: CRI DJ

Nate McBride: with his new tall called Long July

DJ Crispotek: dj Sweet Apples

Nate McBride: dj, you know, with a new 12 inch long July that's

blowing up clubs all over Europe. All over Europe. I mean it's huge in

England right now. It's huge. It's, it's full 12 inches.

It's beautiful. I mean, and just on head over to right now and it's

just blowing up the clubs space and pacha and they're just going mad

over that. They just play it all night nonstop.

Mike Crispin: The royalties have bought me three ice cream cones so

far. It's, it's fantastic. Hey, listen,

DJ Crispotek: you're doing better than the podcast.

So,

Nate McBride: I mean, that was basically the anthem to the end of the

world. Like, when I think about the end of the world, anthem. There

you go. Like, for, for what it's worth, Mike has already promised that

the end of my world party, he's going to put on the most massive DJ

set [00:07:00] ever. Should be pretty quick. Yeah.

Mike Crispin: I'm, I'm learning, I'm learning how to, to do it.

It's very interesting. We're probably gonna

DJ Crispotek: need it, we're probably need a few more songs for that

set, but, um,Nate McBride: I'm sure we still have a few months to go, so I'm sure

it is a work in progress.

Mike Crispin: We got, uh, micros Spin is on his way here, so we got,

uh, that's, that's the next album. Micros spin,

Nate McBride: micro spin. Okay.

Well don't micro

Mike Crispin: micro spin, like Microsoft Micro

Nate McBride: spin. Don't Yeah. Don't book any other engagements for

the end of the world.

Mike Crispin: Oh, don't worry. I'm I, I'll clear my schedule.

Nate McBride: Okay. Um, and speaking of the end of the world, yeah.

Welcome to the final episode of season two of the Calculus of It

podcast. The original home of the Nexus of Neverland.

Yes. Home of the Sad Salad. Yeah. Birthplace. Birthplace of the rope

steak. And as always, we are AI af. In fact, we're so af [00:08:00]

tonight that we're already, we're already passed. Ai ai ai is for

suckers. Wait, I just got here. We already passed it. Yeah, we we're.

It's for, it's for losers who still does ai. I mean, that's so fucking

according now.

Nobody.

DJ Crispotek: Kevin, you're looking good tonight, man. I love the

outfit. I love it. Thank you. Let's do this.

Nate McBride: Yes, you just missed Mike's, uh, new 12 inch signal.

That's gonna be brilliant. Clubs all over the world. Uhoh. We'll,

we'll, we'll replay it. We'll replay it during the episode.

I look forward to that. Bring it back. I, and that I, I'm stoked for

this episode. Not only because we're gonna be playing, um, long July,

several times throughout the episode, but because this may be one of

the last podcast episodes that as is done by humans ever. Hmm. It's

true. Yeah. I mean, this could be it, this could be the actual last

episode of a podcast that actually is only done by humans, [00:09:00]

so may not be so being done

DJ Crispotek: by

Nate McBride: humans now.

Yeah. How would you know, how would you know? You'll never know. How

would you know exactly? Right. How would you know that we are humans?

I don't know. I don'tYeah. How would you know, how would you know? You'll never know. How

would you know exactly? Right. How would you know that we are humans?

I don't know. I don't

Mike Crispin: know. I don't know. That's half the fun.

Nate McBride: We could, could, we could

Mike Crispin: simulated

Nate McBride: digital twin. To have these, these, um, weird, weird

pauses.

Kevin Dushney: So you're back to Max Headroom 19 eight.

DJ Crispotek: Yes. We've come, we've

Kevin Dushney: come

DJ Crispotek: full circle The idiocy. You don't have that game

Kevin Dushney: in the background,

Nate McBride: do you? No, no, no. Did did it ever make its way into a

game? I know. Dragons fla, uh,

Mike Crispin: dragons player. Uh,

Nate McBride: yeah. It, yeah, it was, yeah. Dragons layer. Right? So

here we are. Final episode of the season.

Um,

Mike Crispin: wasn't Dirk Diggler on in that movie or Dirk was the

name?

Nate McBride: Oh, Dirk. Dirk Diggler wasn't, um, dragons [00:10:00]

Layer. Right? Dragons Dragons Layer. Yeah, that's right. He was also

Boogie Knight.

Mike Crispin: That's right, that's right. That was his two Apparent.

His two. That's kind of the sequel to Dragon's Layer, right? Boogie

Knight is

Nate McBride: is the sequel to Dragons layer.

That's Wellknown that, right? That's right. Eclectic mix.

Kevin Dushney: Two, two movies

Nate McBride: according to, according to Chat GBT. They are, it is the

sequel. Um, and chat GB t doesn't lie. So, so we've spent at least 12

episodes talking about autonomy and IT leadership at least 12. I I, I

think we're, this is episode 19, even though it's only episode 13 and

that's it.Nate McBride: according to, according to Chat GBT. They are, it is the

sequel. Um, and chat GB t doesn't lie. So, so we've spent at least 12

episodes talking about autonomy and IT leadership at least 12. I I, I

think we're, this is episode 19, even though it's only episode 13 and

that's it.

Math. So it works. Um, we've dissected. How to keep your decision

making power in a vendor dominated world. Um, we've dissected how to

build resilience. We've dissected how to navigate regulations without

selling your soul. Um, I personally think we absolutely killed it this

[00:11:00] season. Uh, we took autonomy on our road trip and we

stopped at all the places along the way and kind of took a deep look

into it.

Some episodes ended up being multi, multi-part episodes. Other

episodes we kind of flew right through. But real, the real point is

that, um, well, what do you guys think? I mean, does the outlook look

good for IT leaders to maintain some semblance of autonomy in the

future? I mean, is it even possible anymore or are we all just fucked?

Like what's the outcome Hot takes?

Mike Crispin: I think there's still autonomy is to be able to do some

things. You kind of make decisions differently in ways that you think

are better. I think that still, that's a possibility, but

Kevin Dushney: yeah,

Mike Crispin: I don't think we're doomed. I don't think we're

completely doomed.

Kevin Dushney: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't think it's binary.

I think it changes for sure. Um, how is is TBE but you know, you're

already seeing a shift as we discussed all season, but where

[00:12:00] that ultimately lands in the next, what, 12 to 18 months?

Uh, hard to say, but I don't, I don't think it's a, a binary event. I

think it's just more of a shift. It's like, which direction does that

go?

You know? But depends if we move different, you know?

Mike Crispin: Depends if we move more into a human-centric industry.

5.0 model.

Nate McBride: Yeah. Wow, Mike, that was, that was great. Lead in

unprompted. Awesome. Unprompted segue. Well done. So,

Kevin Dushney: and now I am not being paid to read this

Mike Crispin: human. This will be okay. No, they won't.Nate McBride: All right.

So, well, since you gave away basically the secret for tonight, um,

what secret? The, the, you, you, you basically blew up the trailer. I

mean, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about Industry

5.0. I said that we would, when we [00:13:00] started this season, we

would have, um, a long season about it, autonomy, but we would finish

the season with a discussion, a frank discussion about Industry 5.0.

DJ Crispotek: Yes.

Nate McBride: Um, and here we are, we're on the doorstep. And I've

been dying to talk about it ever since I read Ray Wang's article, but

now, two plus years ago. Um, and when he blew up my mind with his take

on the data economy, I, you know, I've been obsessed with this

concept. I've sort of turned over every single possible stone there is

about this.

Who's talking about who's thinking about it? Quite a few people

actually are thinking about it. Most of them happen to be on the, um,

end of the spectrum that relates to big consulting firms making money

off of selling fud. But it is becoming. It is trickling down slowly.

Kevin Dushney: Um, that will never go away, by the way.

Yeah. If there's something to anchor on the, the selling and

distribution of FUD is,

Nate McBride: I

Kevin Dushney: know.

Nate McBride: Yeah. I tried to, I was, I don't have a Gartner

membership, but I was trying to figure out when Gartner first started

talking [00:14:00] about it, and it was somewhere in the last three

years, um, according to my poorly researched, uh, Gartner research

thing.

Um, but they are now dropping it into decks, I'm sure, and, and

telling it leaders about it. Just, you know, because they're them. But

anyway, um, I think honestly, if we take the whole season, and I never

put this together until just recently when I was thinking about this

thing sort of at a, at a high level view, but this actually, I didn't

want this to be a discussion about autonomy.

I want it to be just a discussion about Industry 5.0. But the two do

relate. And so I can't help but tie some of the pieces back together.

And I'll try to do that tonight, but then also get both of your takes

on this. By the way, um, I'm Nate McBride, that's Mike Crispin and

that's Kevin dni. This is the Calculus of IT podcast, and we are doing

our last episode of the season two.I want it to be just a discussion about Industry 5.0. But the two do

relate. And so I can't help but tie some of the pieces back together.

And I'll try to do that tonight, but then also get both of your takes

on this. By the way, um, I'm Nate McBride, that's Mike Crispin and

that's Kevin dni. This is the Calculus of IT podcast, and we are doing

our last episode of the season two.

Uh, so think about it this way. Um, I'll just throw out a [00:15:00]

thought. So if autonomy and IT leadership has been our North Star this

season. Um, then Industry 5.0 was basically the constellation in which

it sits. Uh, I try to think of a metaphor. I thought about one about

using a rope stake. It just didn't work.

Uh, so I went with this simpler, more. I'm

Mike Crispin: sorry that I initially rope staked the human centricity

part. So

Nate McBride: yeah, I was trying to think about like if, if autonomy

and IT leadership is the stake, then industry 5.0 is the vehicle that

was that, uh, loosens the rope. I had all these metaphor concepts, but

nothing really stuck.

So we went with IT. Leadership autonomy, being the North Star and

Industry 5.0 being the constellation in which it sits, um, I think it

works. Hear me out. It's just not about preserving your ability to

make independent techno technological decisions anymore. It's about

using that autonomy to create a future where technology actually

serves human purpose [00:16:00] instead of just making things faster

and cheaper.

And on that last note, faster and cheaper. I wanna come back to that

in just a second. Um, so first of all, I wanna get both of your hot

takes to keep a theme going on the, just the phrase Industry 5.0 Hot

takes,

Mike Crispin: well, I think compared to 4.0. 5.0 as you mentioned is,

is is more focused on people's wellbeing than technology's wellbeing.

More focused on the human side or the betterment side of, of industry,

doing good things. Not just say, making money, not just being faster,

like you said, being more centered on humans.

Being more focused on how do we use our energy more efficiently? How

do we do things that are gonna [00:17:00] make it more steadfast and

long lasting o over time? Whatever we do is needs to be more efficient

on multiple levels, not just speed, like you said. And, um, I guess

also just need to be maintained and maintainable by either humans or,

or machines.

And we need to work that out between the two. There's not one, just

one or the other. There's sort of a, a, uh, partnership or some sort

of fusion between those two things. It doesn't, we can't do one

without the other, and I think that's this being more centered on

humans wellbeing than just technology for speed and performance and,

um, even perhaps even sustainability in that respect as well.And we need to work that out between the two. There's not one, just

one or the other. There's sort of a, a, uh, partnership or some sort

of fusion between those two things. It doesn't, we can't do one

without the other, and I think that's this being more centered on

humans wellbeing than just technology for speed and performance and,

um, even perhaps even sustainability in that respect as well.

So more we're focused on, on people and improving the lives of people.

Nate McBride: Okay.

Kevin Dushney: Kevin, like the human fund. For people human find. Oh.

[00:18:00] Um, I think, you know, it's the key question there is that

over overly idealistic to say we can move, you know, towards more of a

focus on, you know, the human component when faster and cheaper means,

you know, in general more, more profitability, more revenue, more

money, however you wanna measure it.

And Sure. At, you know, at the end of the day, you know, let's face

it, and in an economy or you're running a business, you know, you, you

just, you can't, I guess it's hard to choose one over the other there.

But yeah, my take is that if it's faster and cheaper, you know, if

you're, it's like a CFO or a COO, you're gonna be driving that versus

like, okay, well what are, how does this make my company better if I'm

focused on the, the human piece of it?

So I think it's idealistic and it, it is probably the right way to go,

but just the practicality of [00:19:00] it is, yeah. You know, it's

just not the way the world works at the moment. I, in my view,

Mike Crispin: I, I, I, I, I agree with you, Kevin. I don't think it, I

actually don't think of it as industry 5.0. I think it more like

industry 4.5, because it's really just it.

I think if, if things are faster and better. It may not be better for

everyone, but it would be better for most. And I That might be good

enough for Yeah. For the world. Um, I think if you go to full industry

5.0, it has a certain ring to it where it's like,

DJ Crispotek: yeah, we're

Mike Crispin: trying to take all things, all issues in the world into

account.

Mm-hmm. And is that, is that realistic? I don't know. I don't know if

that's too much utopian thinking and is that really possible?

Kevin Dushney: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: That, uh, at the, at the risk of profits and at the risk

of, of making money. Right. You know, is, uh, it is just a whole, and

then it's sort of a global globalist perspective where it's like,

well, if a [00:20:00] lot of these machines, you know, are doing these

things for us, how much need is there for a huge amount of

profitability and, um, revenue.But at the same time, then I think when that's true, you lose control.

So once the cost come down so low, you're so dependent on these

systems, these systems that maybe it's not industry 5.00 at all. It

becomes even more of a Yeah. Uh, control mechanism. It might be, hey,

everyone gets access to the information or everyone has sustainable

energy, or everyone's gonna live till 150, but what, what, where's the

competition?

Where's the

DJ Crispotek: mm-hmm. The

Mike Crispin: drive to keep people producing and doing things. You get

to the Wally scale, you know, we talk about that. It's like

everything's great, uh, good enough that we have the best milkshake to

drink every day. And that aware of anything else.

Kevin Dushney: I think, um, you know, an interesting, I don't know,

index, if you will, is to see where, you know, AI and, and human

interaction reaches sort of this equilibrium.

'cause there's so [00:21:00] much hype into it and

DJ Crispotek: yeah,

Kevin Dushney: it's constantly shifting. Where does it shake out to

where, okay, you know, this is where it is, has it peaked for the next

five years? Is there more to go? Is it just we're gonna continue

hyping it fine? And also where are the real world results coming?

Right?

Clearly there's some, but you know, if you take our industry in like

early discovery and like, you know, it's not there yet. So I don't

know. I'm curious to see where this kind of shakes out in the next

three years in particular where, you know, what's the human component?

Is it really displacing jobs or is all all fud or, you know, and, and

it's just gonna be a shift of, hey, what you do today is different

than what you're gonna do in three years because of ai, but you're not

necessarily out of a job, it's just a change.

Like, you know, back to the, when the internet was introduced that

shook everything up. Like, like how does that track relative to AI is,

is sort of how I'm thinking about it.

Mike Crispin: I think it largely depends on whether or not we have a

huge success in the next year or two or we have a massive [00:22:00]

meltdown and failure.

Yeah. Yeah. Fair. If one of the other that's, that I think will drive

a lot of the.Yeah. Yeah. Fair. If one of the other that's, that I think will drive

a lot of the.

Nate McBride: Decisions. Okay. Well let's, let's put this into

perspective for a second, which is, um, I, and I figured at some

point, and we'll probably end up doing this multiple times, that we

would overly conflate Industry 5.0 with ai. They mm-hmm.

They are, industry 5.0 does rely on automation and AI as part of, its

sort of core, but, um, I don't want to go too far down that road. I

will say that, and we can, we'll, regarding the faster and cheaper,

um, you know, this is something that's been talked about. I remember

there was a sign hanging in, I think it was the head accountant's

office at TKT.

Someone had a sign that said there are three things, pick two. One of

them was better, faster, cheaper, and cheaper. Pick two, you can't

have all three. Right? Right. And I remember saying that sign like,

this is not, this is not a new idea. I don't know if it's got any

basis in reality ever, [00:23:00] because, you know, it can be

overridden and, and the drop of a hat when someone walks in and says,

well, may I ask company?

I had this. But I would say that there's a paradox that we're also, in

addition to the data problem we're gonna talk about in a few minutes,

there's a paradox at stake here, which is Industry 5.0 is one of, its,

one of its core elements is that we're, um, serving a human purpose.

However, when you use it, when you build a technology that replaces

humans or displaces them from, um, employment, those same humans then

can't buy your technology.

So what happens is you get into a cycle where you're improving

something to the point where, uh, you can make it faster, cheaper, and

then sell it, but there's no one to buy it because they don't have any

cash with which to buy it. There's a, there's a guy, I mean, I get all

these things on LinkedIn and these are people that are just like

literally shit posting constantly about AI and some study or some

thought they have.

And I, I don't, I don't subscribe to them, but you know, LinkedIn

[00:24:00] just puts these people that they think I might like all the

time. And there's this one guy I finally had to stop blocking. I had

to block because just the stuff he was posting, but he was like, look

at this guy who is a unicorn. He's got $3 million unicorn investment

and he's gonna blah, blah, blah, sell ai, and he doesn't have any

people working for him.

And I'm like, no one's gonna nonstop. That's like, oh, I built an

entire

Kevin Dushney: company on AI with one person. Right. People like,Nate McBride: that's all, that's all awesome, but no one's gonna buy

your shit.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah.

Nate McBride: So great for you. Good job, uh, securing unicorn seed

money. Zero people will buy your product. Uh, so I just look at this

paradox and say, we can use AI to replace jobs and that's, you know,

some of the zeitgeist effect, but then it's just going to, it's like

any, any other, um, bacteria or any other sort of, uh, host sort of,

um, parasite model.

There won't be anybody left to buy the thing. So [00:25:00] anyway,

we're, we're gonna come back to this faster, cheaper idea and so just

don't wanna hold that hanging out there. Before we get into that

quick, quick little housekeeping stuff, um, I do wanna do one last

final jobs update. Akea, uh, still looking for that VP of IT role.

LinkedIn says that 1047 people have applied. Holy crap. Yep. 1047

people have applied to the Akea IT role. They have not found that

magic person yet. So what does it tell you about the market right now?

Um, in terms of people like Akea that can't sift through that, they're

either people are just spam playing the market with shit resumes or

Akea is looking for a unicorn.

Um, I don't know. Take your pick then. Maverick Technologies is still

looking for a CTO. It's been going on a few weeks now. Yep. Um,

they're very, very fast growing. Uh, I, I wouldn't put 'em in the MSP

category kind of in the more everything [00:26:00] category, but it's

looking for CTO, UMass Chan Medical School. We've talked about this

one a few times.

Mm-hmm. They're not looking for a deputy managing director of

technology. The JD looks pretty awesome and this one's been open for

just a few weeks. The paper store is looking for a senior manager of

it. And who doesn't love paper? Uh, CarGurus, you know that big

building that's sitting there hanging over the pack?

Yes. They're looking for a head of it. Oregon or Genesis is looking

for a new VP of it. Uh, KSQ is looking for a senior manager ad of IT

operations. Alteryx is looking for an SVP of Global Technology and

Innovation Partnerships. Hmm. Is a mouthful. And Seaport Therapeutics.

Mike, I think, um, Tim Fox is there, right?

DJ Crispotek: Yep.

Nate McBride: Is that where Tim is? Yep. They're looking, they're

looking for an ad of it Ops.DJ Crispotek: Cool.

Nate McBride: So that's the last jobs update. Hopefully everyone goes

into the summer and there's a, there's a fun turnaround. I'm not

gonna, I'm sure there's plenty of other jobs out there, but [00:27:00]

that's sort of what bubbled to the top.

Quick reminder, we do have a Slack board. We've had a couple people

join in the last week, actually. New people. Mm-hmm. So good for them.

Saw that. Um, uh, you can buy us a beer if you like the show. We're

thirsty people and we don't have sponsors, so that's why we asked for

beer. Um, 'cause we needed to keep the show going.

We're actually, you know, we used to have sponsors,

Kevin Dushney: but

Nate McBride: we used to have sponsors. Um, we stopped getting

sponsors when Sponsor realized, and

Kevin Dushney: I remember the, you know, in the old days, yeah.

Nate McBride: Rope stake. And, um, they would get, you know, a huge

increase in sales. Then people would all of a sudden stop buying

anything from them.

So we kind cut off at merch. I love when people send Pig spraying the

A IAF shirts this month, and I can't believe I've never said this. I

get these emails from Spreadshirt, which I never read, which I'm

supposed to send out to my customers, which are codes, discount codes.

So for the last year and a half, we've had discount codes and I've

never sent them out.

So we do have a 20% [00:28:00] off discount. We do have a 20% off

discount code for spreadshirt this month with code SPRD six WQ. Um, if

you use that, you get 20% off any shirt in the spread shirt shop.

Sweet enough. Oh, also, um, as we go into the summer and you're

kicking it on the beach or wherever it is, you kick it and you're

listening to the podcast, just remember to give us all the stars.

Yeah. Whatever, whatever platform you're listening to it on. Uh, or

else we'll never come back and you'll die when the end of the world

comes. Having never given us the, the, the chance to give you more

podcast episodes.

Kevin Dushney: BB algo.

Nate McBride: Yep. Yep. Alright, Mike, Kevin, let's get into it. Let's

talk about this shit. Let's talk about what Industry 5.0 actually

means and why.It's not just Industry 4.0 or 4.5 or 4.8. Mm-hmm. It's just extra,

extra mayonnaise on top. Um, so before we dive into Industry 5.0

though, I want to just do a quick reality check because we're, we're,

we're talking right now [00:29:00] about moving from Industry 4.0 to

5.0 and that assumes incorrectly. Everybody is actually in Industry

4.0 right now.

That's fair and honestly. I think a lot of companies are still

straddling industry 3.3 0.0 and 4.0 at the same time. Um, I'll, I have

a very good friend of mine who lives down in Rhode Island. He, um, has

got a family run company. They're industry two, maybe three. Uh, and

they do extraordinarily well. They've got no need to move beyond that.

So I think it's unfair to think that everyone's on four. Um, yeah, a

lot of manufacturing facilities, a lot of very, very intensive

manufacturing facilities that, you know, third shift types are still

running PLCs. Um, sort of those industrial computers from the

industry. Three, 3.0 era, classic standalone automation.

But then they've got IOT sensors bolted onto everything that's in

there of plants. Mm-hmm. So [00:30:00] they're still running Windows

seven with an IOT sensor bolted on feeding Cloud to a data platform

that's running AI analytics. And so, you know, they get the whole, the

whole shebang. So they're living in basically two industrial

revolutions simultaneously.

And that's, I think, probably most companies right now. I think if you

have an on-prem data center, and this isn't a, a knock on anybody, and

you're still running technologies that existed maybe 15, 20 years ago

to sustain your company, but you're also putting at least one toe into

this new world. You're in that sort of category.

So for both of you, I mean, just in terms of what you see, hear,

smell, read about what's going on out there, would you say that the

bulk of your experiences that companies are either making the move

towards or already mostly in or all in, in three, 4.0? Or is there

still a big lag? [00:31:00]

Mike Crispin: I'd say that we we're playing in the early 4.0 en

environments, for the most part.

Not doing all of the, not everything that kind of industry 4.0 plays

towards, I'd say we're either just getting into it or towards the

center of it. Just in my experience and the people that I talked to,

like nobody's doing robotics or, or at least fully doing robotics or

DJ Crispotek: mm-hmm.

Mike Crispin: Um, then we still talk a lot about, you know,

digitalization and better automation.Mike Crispin: Um, then we still talk a lot about, you know,

digitalization and better automation.

I mean that's, that's a 4.0. Um, and cloud computing and those types

of things. And we still, and, and certainly, you know, you look at,

um, the, the latter half of some of that, I, I think it's, we're still

aspiring to be 4.01 in a lot of ways.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. Yeah. It varies probably wildly by industry too.

If you look at companies that make products like take cars for

example, right?

That's, that's probably one of the areas you see, you know, higher

[00:32:00] utilization of robotics. Whereas in other industries, you,

you may not see any. Yeah. Um, that, you know, closest to 4.0 is, is,

I don't know off the top of my head, but in our industry, three and a,

you know, 3.5, like heading towards four, but in five is, that's why I

said five seems like more, you know, ideology than, uh, on the near

term horizon, at least in our, our industry.

Nate McBride: Yep. Yes. And so I think this is all good in terms of

framing, like I think on the B2C side, I mean, if you wanna be a

surviving long-term B2C company, you have to be moving in that

direction if you're not already there and 4.0. Yeah. If you're B2B

company, there's I think pro potentially a little less pressure on

you.

Mm-hmm. But you're still moving in that direction. Um, and if you're

obviously a not-for-profit company, you stand to gain only from that

faster, cheaper sort of model. Yep. And whichever way that takes you

is gonna be the way you go. I don't think that there is necessarily a

[00:33:00] directive. Um, so I think this is kind of crucial for

everyone to understand in terms of how we frame this, because you

can't jump to Industry 5.0, um, thinking if you're still dealing with

silo data from Industry 3.0 systems.

Yeah. And by the way, we talk about industry 1.0 2.0. You can go

Wikipedia this, but, uh, 3.0 was effectively the advent of the

computer. On the desk, the single server, the centralized

environments, the collaboration, the communications, all the things

that we effectively use today, uh, for operational work.

That's mm-hmm. Effectively, industry 3.0. And from industry, industry

3.0, we got Web 2.0, Web3 0.0, web 4.0. Um, so again, Wikipedia, all

of these, it's short reads. So in 3.0 of industry, [00:34:00] your

production data was generally on like a single server or a couple

servers, maintenance data lives somewhere else.

Inventory data was in a database, somewhere on another server. You had

people in control rooms reacting to things after, after they happened.

It's always very manual, very reactive, but Industry 4.0 changed that.

Right? So you've got IOT things everywhere. And, uh, I think, Mike, we

talked about this last week.Inventory data was in a database, somewhere on another server. You had

people in control rooms reacting to things after, after they happened.

It's always very manual, very reactive, but Industry 4.0 changed that.

Right? So you've got IOT things everywhere. And, uh, I think, Mike, we

talked about this last week.

We talked about our wearables policy that we're working on at Alio. I

mean, we had a great discussion at our, um, information security

meeting last week to go over the first round of draft reviews for that

policy. And it, I mean, we basically, like what became very clear is

that this policy could be a hundred pages long, uh, instead of three

if we weren't careful.

Because of this exact phenomena. Mm-hmm. But, [00:35:00] um, with iot

machines talking to each other in real time, cyber physical systems

where your virtual models linked to real world process, instead of

reacting to problems, you're predicting them before they happen and

then preventing them automatically. And the crazy part is you don't

need to throw away your 3.0 stuff.

Um, you can just augment it with 4.0 things. So I'll pause there and

see what you guys think about that.

Mike Crispin: Well, let's take 3.0 components are, like you said, are

reusable in, in the 4.0 model. Some of the same. We always say like

the, you know, same rules and new tools. You hear that a lot of the

time. Yeah, yeah. A lot of stuff applies across the new, the new

items. And I think that's why in some respects, all the AI discussion

is taken everyone by storm, is that it is such a drastic change from

the three oh and early 4.0 ways of doing things.

I mean, a ML and machine learning and that type of stuff is all

[00:36:00] in that. And data and analytics is all in that 4.0 bucket,

right? Mm-hmm. And AI is the old AI, I guess.

DJ Crispotek: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: You know what we heard from Gartner, you know, eight

years ago, like the AI is machine learning and which it really is in

some ways, but is like not this gen AI stuff and whatnot has taken us

such a, at least seeing.

Maybe not fully in practice in value, but in, in some of the clever

stuff, you know, that we've seen is like, wow, this is some, this is

gonna change everything. It gets us all talking about the future.

That's the only thing I, I feel like this is a little bit different.

Maybe the, the, the, the rules are maybe a little different, but

there's still very similar to when the internet was introduced and

search was introduced.

And so,

DJ Crispotek: yeah, IMike Crispin: think even some of the ideas and philosophies around the

different industry generations, uh, are reusable not just to the, uh,

the tools and the technologies. It's just even some of the [00:37:00]

approaches are, are gonna carry forward even into the five Oh model.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. And, and just that, you know, add a different

take to that, you know, just sort of the concept of time.

Right. And think about how long it, it's, it's been to move from 3.0

to companies that stole it for mm-hmm. And is, is now AI just 'cause

we can't avoid this topic, does that accelerate in a meaningful way,

the pace of change from four to five?

Mike Crispin: Yeah.

Kevin Dushney: Well, you know what I mean, because it, like how long

it took to go from three or like, just, you know, big data centers to

virtualization to shifting out and some people are bringing stuff back

in, uh, 'cause of cost.

Um, and that took, you know. To sit down and think about it. Like how

long did that take to, to move really in a meaningful way from say,

you know, off of three to Okay, we're mostly to four, um, and is it,

is the four [00:38:00] to five hot faster just because of the, the

pace of change right now? Right. Relative to then

Nate McBride: Well, so, so to that point, I mean, here's the thing,

Kevin, like Industry 4.0 when it became a thing, and it's hard to

pinpoint exactly when it became a thing.

Yeah. But when it became an idea, it was primarily based on this

concept of making machines smarter and more independent. Right. That

was mm-hmm. The underlying point of industry 4.0 and that includes all

the pieces, but it was automation, automation, efficiency. Yeah.

Digital twins, collaborative robots, real time decision making.

Uh, basically how do you make this company factory, whatever, faster

with fewer humans touching anything. But, so, so no matter what AI was

a fa to complete, like it had to happen in order mm-hmm. For industry

4.0 to, to mature, but could, and you know, we've, I forget what

episode we talked about this, but can you just simply replace the word

AI in any [00:39:00] conversation with process improvement and still

achieve the same result?

I mean, to get machines smarter, more independent. Can you do it in

any way whatsoever without ai, or does it have to be done with some

part of ai.

I realize it's kind, it's kind of a technological question, but it's

still one to think about. I, I, I think, uh, there's a reason why I'm

asking this, so go ahead and answer.I realize it's kind, it's kind of a technological question, but it's

still one to think about. I, I, I think, uh, there's a reason why I'm

asking this, so go ahead and answer.

Mike Crispin: Sure. The only thing I'll say, I guess, is that we think

of AI as, in some respects, as some revolutionary and not even

singular thing like this overall, you know, sort of aura of different

technologies and capabilities.

I, I think it's just gonna be pretty, I don't think we're gonna talk

about it in the, in the way that we talk about it a couple years from

now. It's just baked in. It's another machine language. It's another,

yeah. And we'd won't even be thinking of it, like, is AI doing this or

that? I think it'll be more of a, it's, [00:40:00] it's just kind of

built in intelligence, you know, we'll say that these are smarter or

smart applications, or these are, you know what, whatever, whatever

the marketing term will be.

Nate McBride: You don't think that people will let it go too far, um,

and try to make it the thing as opposed to making it a another thing.

Mike Crispin: I, I think it will be the thing. It just won't be, it

just won't be, we won't think of it as the thing that it, I, I think

what I'm saying is yes, I think people will push it to the extent that

it is the thing, but it will just be like software as to us now.

Like it's an application, like we won't think of it as, as some other

thing going on underneath, um, which could be extreme, extraordinarily

risky, right? It could be a real problem, but I, I think that. Like I

said earlier, the hype cycle, we're at full hype a hundred percent

right now.

DJ Crispotek: Yeah,

Mike Crispin: something's gotta go wrong.

Some company's got to horribly fail, you know, because of ai or we

have some sort of massive security issue or breach. Uh, or on the flip

side, there's some [00:41:00] massive breakthrough technology that

saves hundreds of thousands of lives or, or something along those

lines. It gets huge global attention and it's, I mean, then everyone

goes full throttle into it.

So,

Kevin Dushney: and, and those are not mutually exclusive. I mean, I

was thinking also in terms of like when the hype starts to wane and

people stop, you know, buying your product because of ai, it's just

expected that it's there and, and does it actually, you know, bring

any meaningful, uh, value creation to the table when you're comparing,

you know, A versus B, whereas, you know, right now everyone's in the

state of let's just cram it in there.Kevin Dushney: and, and those are not mutually exclusive. I mean, I

was thinking also in terms of like when the hype starts to wane and

people stop, you know, buying your product because of ai, it's just

expected that it's there and, and does it actually, you know, bring

any meaningful, uh, value creation to the table when you're comparing,

you know, A versus B, whereas, you know, right now everyone's in the

state of let's just cram it in there.

Whether it's it's good or it's crap, doesn't really matter. We just

need to be able to see we have it, you know? And I think that needs to

stabilize and shake out where, okay, you've crammed it into everything

and who's l alum actually works and this is just, this is garbage and

added zero value and big distraction versus, whoa, actually no, this,

but coming to your point, [00:42:00] Nate, like, does it lead a

meaningful process improvement?

Um, I think that's, at the end of the day, that's what has to happen.

Otherwise, this is just shiny new object. Um, you know, on, on a

hundred billion, right? It just, at the end, it needs to turn into

something meaningful for, for companies and, and ultimately consumers.

Again, to the other point about buying the products, right?

It has to be, you know, differentiated and not just a buzzword

anymore. And I think that's what's gonna change over, over time. Um,

agree with both of you down the cycle.

Nate McBride: There's, so there's two things I wanna say back to my,

my question and you, you guys kind of both got to, to each part, but

let's dive in a little bit.

So number one, Mike, you mentioned, what if there's something that you

know, saves hundreds of thousands of lives, what would you think?

Suppose that somebody uses AI to solve a problem of substance? Yes.

And, you know, we've talked about this since last season. Sure.

[00:43:00] Like, we ha where, where have we seen generative AI start

to solve poverty or, um, drug addiction?

Like, we are not seeing it, it's sort of at the social societal ills

level. But let's suppose that someone comes up with generative AI

solution to solve a major problem, can solve 300,000 lives. What's the

very next action that happens after that moment globally? Everybody

tries to then

Mike Crispin: That's right.

That's what I mean. People will go full throttle. If there's an

extremely bene benevolent event that happens,

Nate McBride: right? It'll go even faster. And do you think that

that's, that in and of itself is problematic? Like the moment that you

can prove such a thing can happen, does everybody stop shifting their

focus on anything and only focus on that thing?

Throw that out there. It's, it's a rhetorical question for the

Mike Crispin: Yeah. The answer is probably yes, but, um, yeah, sorry.Nate McBride: So, well that's okay. The second thing is, so I read an

article and, um, this was [00:44:00] from my Security weekly, um,

email I get, uh, on Sundays, which I love. And from that email, there

was a link to this discussion about, and it was buried in a Reddit or

subreddit, but it was about the fact that chat GBT is now moving

towards being capable of working with any data source in Google Drive,

Dropbox Box.

Mm-hmm. You just plug it in, right? Yep. And it's good to go. Yep. And

that there's this, this idea that the very next evolution of this,

not, not an iterative one, but the very next one is that that data is

now fed into the lms.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm.

Nate McBride: You are going to be consenting to allowing your data to

be used in the LLM the moment that you link it to a data source.

And, and so, so both of these points come back to the autonomy

discussion. I'm not trying to like purposely try this all back, but,

but both of these do in the sense that if the, if you are [00:45:00]

using generative AI to solve a problem and your problem is wildly

successful, and you're able to sort of leverage that going forward,

are you only able to think about that solution now?

Are you, or are you able to say that's good for that, but I still have

this over here. And then secondly, are you able to stop using

generative AI when it gets dangerous without autonomy? Are you able to

put the brakes on? And so I open it up. I mean, pick or choose either

both, but I don't think you can pump the

Kevin Dushney: brakes until there's like a big blow up.

Mike Crispin: Yeah, same here. I, I think, think on the first point,

it has to be

Kevin Dushney: a huge meltdown on, on some level, whether it's

privacy, uh, you know, data leak, privacy, what have you, until it the

people pump the brakes and say, oh, whoa, yeah, you know, we gotta

take a step back here and reevaluate.

Mike Crispin: I think in the consumer space today, I mean we, on the

first point around, uh.

Connecting like, um, [00:46:00] AI through like an MPC or something to

all your data using like Google Drive, like chat pt. Yep. Or Gemini

mean the three of us are on Google Drive and the three of us are using

Gmail.DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm. Same

Mike Crispin: thing. I mean, we're given all of this data to Google to

use. They can do whatever they want with it.

None of it is encrypted at rest. Right. So, I mean, to me, we haven't

lost autonomy because of that. And I think that the same thing with

the ai. We, there's a checkbox that says, don't, we're not gonna look

at your stuff. That's as good as the word of Google or OneDrive or any

of these other services we use.

It's the same thing. So in that respect, I think the privacy element,

you know, we're willing to take the risk for convenience and

integration if you don't want, okay, wait a second. Because if you

put, if, if you want automation, you're gonna give your, your data ai,

just like we give it to the cloud and to Zapier today, that's all open

and not encrypted at rest.

You can take their word for it, but maybe it is, and maybe it is.

You're [00:47:00] not using encrypted at rest information by any

means. And when you get to ai, we're only gonna be as good as what we

can trust the vendor for you. We promise not to train on your data,

you know, uh, zoom, slack, box, Microsoft, whoever.

Yeah. We don't train on your data open AI and Gemini and all these,

they're gonna say the same things. So I think that that to me, that

component of it, to your point, uh, Kevin, around privacy. If there's

some sort of opening in which that was not honest and truthful, that

could create a huge issue. But to Nate's point, do people really care

about privacy anymore?

And is it a kind of assumed, like, well,

Kevin Dushney: especially in the consumer privacy, I even

Mike Crispin: Matt does privacy. We already do that.

Kevin Dushney: I give that all away.

Mike Crispin: Yeah.

Kevin Dushney: Right.

Mike Crispin: Is privacy, is privacy gonna be the thing that people

are like, oh my goodness, my data's not private anymore. Yeah. Um, it,

I mean certainly that concerns, it probably concerns us and others.

If we un, if we were, somehow that data was used [00:48:00] against us

somehow. Like a, you know, we were accused of something we didn't do

and someone took all our data outta context in the court of law and,

you know, like this, all this stuff, you know, can happen to people,

you know, is, so there's that. But I think in terms of stopping when

AI is, is moving so fast.If we un, if we were, somehow that data was used [00:48:00] against us

somehow. Like a, you know, we were accused of something we didn't do

and someone took all our data outta context in the court of law and,

you know, like this, all this stuff, you know, can happen to people,

you know, is, so there's that. But I think in terms of stopping when

AI is, is moving so fast.

Yeah. It's sort of like that argument that, you know, maybe this is a

good discussion point is, you know, do we need AI to compete? Um, do,

do our competitors use it too much? And is it, I mean, we take the

whole Apple situation right now. Mm-hmm. Is Apple actually making a

right move by pumping the brakes on ai even though conveniently for

them they haven't been good at it?

That's right. Yeah. But is this a better business decision? They're

gonna put out white papers about how it doesn't work and everything

else, and, but at the same time, maybe they're right. Maybe it is a

big hype cycle and it's let's pump the brakes and let's focus on user

experience. And so very similarly, is it a competitive advantage to

have [00:49:00] ai?

Mm-hmm. Or is it a competitive advantage to be more conservative and

pragmatic about ai? So it's, I think there's those two things that we,

we can think about. Well that's

Nate McBride: why, that's why I made that comment on the Slack board

about what happens when the bottom falls out. I mean, companies like

Apple that are, that are taking a conservative approach when the, when

the, when the shit does go to hell, uh, they'll be the ones we turn to

'cause they'll still have a functioning world.

Kevin, what were you gonna say?

Kevin Dushney: Um, I was gonna say we need liquid glasses is what we

need. Not, uh, um, so, but I mean, in all seriousness, like, you know,

is this, it is curious, you know what Apple's doing here, right? They

published the piece, then have ww DC and, and they, I watched a

YouTube video today. They literally mentioned the word Siri twice in

the entire keynote.

So, you know, is this behind the scenes? They've tried this and it

just, they couldn't get it to work. Or is it they don't want another

black eye [00:50:00] associated with Siri and they're buying

themselves some time? So it is hard to say, but it is interesting. A

company that has essentially unlimited resources is in this position

where.

They're not comfortable, confident, or, you know, you can't just say

they, they can't pull it off. How could they be possible? Right? But

yet here we are. Like they haven't, they haven't implemented in half

of the features, not even close to half that they promised last year.

Mike Crispin: And Nate, to bring it back to your question, does it

stop, I mean, by them not doing this, is this hugely going to affect

them?Mike Crispin: And Nate, to bring it back to your question, does it

stop, I mean, by them not doing this, is this hugely going to affect

them?

The answer is probably no.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: And they, they've stopped. They've stopped.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. Maybe that's, they're, they're right. They're the

Mike Crispin: biggest company in the world though. I think that's, we

Kevin Dushney: don't, we don't need to do it and we'll just integrate

with chat chit and call it a day until we're ready to do something

different.

And maybe that's the play. I don't know.

Nate McBride: Well, okay, so I do

Kevin Dushney: do that.

Nate McBride: So, wow. Um, alright. Let me try to bring back, lot of,

lots of unpack there. I know. No, no, it's great. I mean, every source

I've read, so I [00:51:00] read all the European Commission papers on

AI and it's important to read what the EU is doing. By the way, this

European Commission, I read the McKinsey reports, I read the Accenture

reports.

Uh, it doesn't matter. They, they all agree on, on one thing about

Industry 5.0. And this is what's kind of scary, is that when these big

fuckers agree, um, you should be suspicious and a little bit

concerned, they agree on three things that industry 5.0 will require

human centricity, sustainability, and resilience.

Yep. And, and what we just talked about was. This idea that, I mean, I

think there was Kevin that said it. Um, and perhaps both of you echoed

the same sentiment. Would we not realize our lesson until there was a

catastrophe? And Yeah. And so therefore, are we, are we permanently

now stuck in Industry 4.0 because we cannot get out of AI because we

cannot get out of its way?

Are we, are we gonna be unable to move forward to this human

[00:52:00] centricity sustainability and resilience for, for industry

5.0 by virtue of a single technology?

Mike Crispin: Well, no, I think, I think ai, uh, you know, if, if it

can, if it's adopted correctly, it should be an augmentation and it

should be human-centric. I mean, that's, I mean, I go back to, um, you

know, giving chat, free chat GPT to someone who wants to learn, you

know, the basics on something new or how to fix their furnace or

whatever else, that no one needs any money to do that.Mike Crispin: Well, no, I think, I think ai, uh, you know, if, if it

can, if it's adopted correctly, it should be an augmentation and it

should be human-centric. I mean, that's, I mean, I go back to, um, you

know, giving chat, free chat GPT to someone who wants to learn, you

know, the basics on something new or how to fix their furnace or

whatever else, that no one needs any money to do that.

No one needs any access to anything to do that, um, to learn something

new now that the, to cause the cost, nothing. They can continuously

ask questions and get answers. They, they may not be the perfect

answers, but good enough answers. Um, and, you know, it's an augmenta

it should be an augmented model that this AI should help us get better

as, as humans in general.

So I think it's, I I think if we say, Hey, the machines, you guys can

do everything [00:53:00] for us. A lot of the fud about all the, every

single job is gonna be gone. Or, you know, 30% of the jobs are gonna

be gone. We will see. I mean, I don't know if that's, that's

necessarily true. Um, this stuff isn't perfect and

DJ Crispotek: mm-hmm.

Like,

Mike Crispin: like we've said, I, I think we can get out of our own

way a little bit here where I don't know anyone who's like, just

saying, at least in our industry, that's saying, we're just gonna have

AI do this job. A hundred percent.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. Contrarian to industry 5.0, which, you know,

right. Where it's more about co-creating and, and less about

displacing.

Nate McBride: Yep. Right. And Chief FairPoint, I always about that

augmentation element. I mean, honestly think back to the last time

that you, um, had a project where the goal was genuinely to make

someone more capable instead of replacing them. And that's, um, value

human. That's something a lot, a lot of it leaders are going to have

to [00:54:00] be, they're gonna be involved in this stuff.

Mm-hmm. They're gonna be asking those questions. They're gonna be

asked to ask those questions about their, their own departments. Um,

we saw, um, a company's name that I won't repeat on this episode

'cause they suck, uh, because they dissed us for our merchandise. That

company. Told their, everybody in their company, their CEO on down

told everyone that if you, if an AI can't do it, if an AI can do it,

you can't hire somebody effectively going in the direction of not

Industry 5.0 for a company that's, that's supposedly and on record, as

they've said, as advanced as they are, they are going, in fact, in the

other direction or at least Is that, uh, pets.com?

DJ Crispotek: No.Nate McBride: Um, that is a company that, um, you know how to say,

dunno how to put it. Yeah, I think I know who you're talking about. We

tried to sell, we tried to sell Sell a Shirt. Shirt. We tried to sell

a shirt on their website and they banned us. Yes. I, [00:55:00] yeah.

DJ Crispotek: That is just amazing. I still can't believe that

happened.

Nate McBride: That's ridiculous. That company then, you know, you've

made it when you're getting banned, like I know, I know. We need to

get banned more. Like let's bring on the bands. Jesus us. Yeah,

exactly. So, so that, that human centricity in Industry 5.0 is about

augmentation, not replacing. Okay. So we're all in agreement on that.

But like, like instead of building the AI that does financial

analysis. You build one that helps financial analysts see patterns

they miss, and then frees them up for strategic thinking about the

results of the analytics. So instead of automating customer service

entirely, give the service reps AI tools that help them solve problems

faster and more creatively.

Creatively. That is the transition to industry 5.0. Like those are two

pretty easy examples. But like, and it also, not only, not only does

it solve the talent retention problem, because when you're designing

tech that makes people's jobs more interesting instead of obsolete,

guess what? They stick around.[00:56:00]

But Exactly. It also makes them, it also keeps them in the economy. It

keeps them with a, a, a stake in the game.

Kevin Dushney: So, just, just to comment before I lose the thought,

Nate, so, you know, it, it joking aside on the, on the merch, but if

you have these CEOs that are driving like, Hey, you know, if it can be

done by a ai, don't hire the human or even displace a human.

You're, you're, you're cutting it directly across 5.0, which then just

turns out to be too altruistic, even if the it, you know, lead wants

to do it, right? So there's your autonomy out the window because you

have a CEO that, nope, if it's, if AI can do it, don't hire a person,

right? So there's like, when does that roll over?

And it sort of, this is all intertwined, like the autonomy, the big

blow up. So when does that blow up in your face to the, the CEO says,

oh crap, well this didn't work. Um, this was a huge failure.

[00:57:00] Now I gotta pivot, right? I, I, it's, you know, it, it's

interesting you think about all these things, you know, they're all

very interrelated and I, I'm not sure which, what gives first, or

what's the, the catalyst drive towards five oh.

Versus keep driving down this path. It seems like that's the, that's

the way that a lot of CEOs are going is we're gonna keep growing this,

this path until the car crashes. And then we'll, okay, we'll make a

change then.Versus keep driving down this path. It seems like that's the, that's

the way that a lot of CEOs are going is we're gonna keep growing this,

this path until the car crashes. And then we'll, okay, we'll make a

change then.

Nate McBride: It's true. What is the mo what is the motivation for any

company, especially one that's public?

DJ Crispotek: Yeah.

Nate McBride: What is their, what is the motivation to, instead of

getting rid of employees, becoming faster, more efficient, cheaper,

yeah. To what are mo what is their incentive to keep people around

that's, that's affecting stock?

Kevin Dushney: That, that's what I mean. You know, even like, you

know, being more green and, and all that. Companies have initiatives,

but it's not their mission. You know, it's, it's a bolt on because

[00:58:00] most likely they feel pressured and you to have these

initiatives and the board tries to drive it, but at the end of the

day, push cuts to shove.

It's like, Hey, this is about return to shareholders. If we're, you

know, we can be better by doing X, it's less beneficial to the, you

know, to the human race essentially. Like, we're, we're doing this.

They're gonna act in a selfish way. That's, I think that's the

problem. It's, it's like capitalism in a nutshell, right?

Mike Crispin: Yeah, the continuity component, right? So it's

continuity and, yeah. No, no benefits they need to pay for. No. Right.

Operating cost is lower.

Kevin Dushney: Mm-hmm. Sure. It's pretty compelling. It has to work,

and that's the thing that needs to be proven. But you know, it, it's

hard to say if, if this, you know, AI, automation, et cetera, really

works.

It it what co what public company would be compelled to move towards

5.0 and say, Hey, you know, they're, we're too, we're losing too much

of the human element [00:59:00] in terms of the penalty. And so

there's a penalty like, hey, consumers are not buying their products

'cause they're voting with their dollars to, to gravitate towards more

companies that are 5.0.

Or, you know, for the benefit of green or humanity, whatever, more

altruistic pursuits, uh, that's not, the behaviors won't change.

Mike Crispin: I, I think even more scarily and for those, perhaps even

for those CEOs is it'll be the, the companies that have the most

energy access and resource access that will swallow up even more

companies.Yeah. That, that, hey, maybe they're industry 5.0, maybe they're not.

But if, if, uh, I mean take, take, uh, Amazon and, and Google and

Microsoft and, and health. In the health, science, health space,

right. And

DJ Crispotek: yeah.

Mike Crispin: Uh, or the pharmacy space, what Amazon is doing like. I

think it's, you could take a one level up and say, even if you're,

you're doing things better with ai and you're a small company and

you've eliminated half your staff.

Hmm. Um, [01:00:00] either you're gonna get acquired, which is, which

can be very nice, right? De depending, short, short term gain, right?

Big, big short term gain. Maybe that's all they're after. But it, it

poses more risk, I think, in the respect that the companies that do

ai, these smaller companies do AI really well with fewer people are

just gonna get absorbed into other bigger companies.

And then you've got even bigger problem.

Kevin Dushney: I think there's another thing, you know, if you think

about like the global macro economic view of, you know, to your point

about access to power and energy, you know, this could potentially be,

you know, a boon to third world countries who are not economically

powerful or viable today, where, but they have rich access to

resources like hydro, for example.

Yeah. Where, hey, we've got this incredibly high, you know, high

flowing water supply that can generate tremendous amounts of power and

cooling. Bring the data centers here and we can, I mean, this is sort

of, you know, an extension of the crypto, uh, piece where, you know,

if you have [01:01:00] essentially in relative terms, unlimited access

to, you know, uh, an energy supply.

You're a player. Now,

Mike Crispin: Nate, do you remember who I, who I mentioned to you, I

remember night having drinks who I thought was gonna win the AI battle

and the, and all this. Back a couple years or year or so ago, two

years ago, we were up at, uh, we're Wayland at that burger, the chat,

the Chateau, and, and I've said it, I think the first season on the

podcast, I think Meta is still the one to be the most afraid of.

I think they just made it. They did. They're the ones I saw that

they're the ones they, I it doesn't, they don't seem like to be the

leader in the LLM space today.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah.Mike Crispin: But in terms of all of their investments and components,

how much data they have.

DJ Crispotek: Yeah. Even

Mike Crispin: moral the morality issue in, in, in their minds Right.

Roll outcome. They, they, that's what I mean. Right. And they took,

and what do they just do? They just made a massive purchase of scale

AI yesterday.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And

Mike Crispin: they have just [01:02:00] taken a huge swath of the

infrastructure over in a day.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm. And

Mike Crispin: that's the type of companies under the radar access to

tons of data.

Pe they will give it to everyone for free as long as you keep using

it, you know, no matter what the data is that you want access to,

you'll get it for free.

DJ Crispotek: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: At the, at your own expense. And you still, the product.

And I, I just think that there's some, there's some danger there, but

there are also, it's the flip side of, you know, where, where

companies aren't Right.

They will, they will be. And I think that's, that's gonna create a

dichotomy, um, from a global perspective in the next couple years. Mm-

hmm. Which will be, how this plays into industry 5.0 is ultimately.

They're, they, they're potentially the Borg. They're the ones that are

gonna absorb all these companies that, you know, I'm doing AI really

well without an industry five oh tilt.

And I, I think that's gonna be a little scary.

Nate McBride: Hmm. [01:03:00] So we're gonna take a quick pause and

listen to Mike dj Chris text Crispin's new 12 inch signal. Um, what

do, what do you, how do you want to introduce this song, Mike?

Mike Crispin: Oh, I didn't know we were gonna, we're gonna outplay

this, but, um,

Kevin Dushney: yeah. Is it a new, is it gonna be, the new intro is, is

a teaser for season three.Kevin Dushney: yeah. Is it a new, is it gonna be, the new intro is, is

a teaser for season three.

Uh, intro to the podcast, or

Nate McBride: No. Mike's got a new, a new 12 inch single of blowing up

clubs all over Europe called Long July. Mike, how do you wanna, how do

you wanna call this in? Yeah.

Mike Crispin: I, I wrote a new song and I was, I'm really trying to do

some more EDM and Yep. Dance type music and, um, figured it would be

fun to play it.

We listened to a little bit of it earlier. Mm-hmm. But it's, uh, let's

do it. Yes. My, my ven my venture back into music and trying to do

some, some trance, I guess. So with some vocals.

Kevin Dushney: It's, uh, this next track brought to you by our new

sponsor, MDMA. Yes. And [01:04:00] action.[01:05:00] [01:06:00]

[01:07:00] [01:08:00]

Nate McBride: Two, one. That was fucking awesome. I love that song. My

God.

Mike Crispin: Thank you so much. Keeps me going, dude. Thank you.

Thanks. It was fun. Making it. Lot of fun. Going to do some more and,

uh, let you guys know and it's, uh. Yeah, some more stuff out there,

but it's been fun. Took a month or so to put it together and

Nate McBride: I hope you don't mind that I, I mixed a little bit of

my, my own AI video in with it.

You did there. Yeah. I know you're, I know you're still working on

your video and so when the, when the original video comes out,

DJ Crispotek: yeah.

Nate McBride: We'll make sure the world knows. But I just went and

made my own little one for you.

Mike Crispin: Thank you. Yeah. My, my video, I, I've already started a

little bit of it and I've already cut a lot of things out 'cause I

think they'll get in me into trouble.

So, um, yeah, I have to explain some of them.

Nate McBride: I used a lot of ponies at home, at work, or both?

[01:09:00]

Mike Crispin: Not at work. No. I don't think it'll get, yeah, I don't

know. I don't think it'll work. Anyone will ever see it, but, well, I,Nate McBride: I, I figured, I figured since we're you, you were just

on the advent of getting us into the deep, dark, terrible shit that

I'd lighten up the mood a little bit because now we're gonna go in

that right now.

We're gonna keep going. Um, and so if you need to like go, if you need

like a little bit more time to go back and listen to the song again

before you come to this, back to this part, 'cause we're gonna talk

about, we're gonna talk about the data economy that's coming. Oh boy.

This is the Black Mirror section

Kevin Dushney: of the episode.

Nate McBride: Yeah. We always have the Black Mirror moment. And Mike

just mentioned Meta's acquisition. Um. Meta isn't talked about enough,

they don't get enough credit because other companies that are run by

absolute as hats are, um, getting most of the headlines these days.

However, meta is doing some deep, dark, terrible shit they have been

since the beginning.

And what is relevant here is that, um, and I love talking about this

article, [01:10:00] so you can go on LinkedIn and find it. Ray Wang

wrote a research article about two years ago on Industry 5.0 and his,

his take, um, he's predicting that 90% of the current Fortune 500 will

be merged, acquired, or bankrupt by 2050, 90%.

Um, his argument is that digital giants like Google, Amazon, Facebook

slash Meta have figured out how to monetize data across entire value

chains. Yeah. And most traditional companies are still thinking about

digital transformation as, Hey, let's digitize our existing processes.

Mm-hmm. Not only that, Google, Amazon, Facebook, um, slash meta are

buying everyone and anyone that they can because people a, wanna make

a buck by selling their companies and can, and can and would love to

say to their neighbors, Hey, I just got bought by Google not realizing

the um, uh, existential fucked up danger that they've applied to their

world.

But, um, here's the connection to Industry 5.0. So Wang talks about

decision velocity and signal intelligence where it will no [01:11:00]

longer be enough to just simply collect data. Mm-hmm. You need to turn

that data into decisions faster than your competition. In Industry

5.0, those decisions need to be aligned with human-centric,

sustainable resilient principles, or you're just gonna end up being

really fast at making bad choices.

But the net net of it is, is that what Ray Wang is talking about is at

the end of the day, not even 2050, this is only within the next five

years, um, those three companies I just mentioned, along with just a

small handful of others, will own, um, up to 80% of the world's data.

That's crazy. And they will, they will start brokering it out based on

an economic model that may seem free.But the net net of it is, is that what Ray Wang is talking about is at

the end of the day, not even 2050, this is only within the next five

years, um, those three companies I just mentioned, along with just a

small handful of others, will own, um, up to 80% of the world's data.

That's crazy. And they will, they will start brokering it out based on

an economic model that may seem free.

You mentioned, Mikey mentioned meta being free, but there, there will

be strings and there will either be paid strings or you'll pay in some

other way to get access to data. And I'm not, I'm not talking about

like, you know, who won the World War of 1812 data. I'm talking about

what's the weather tomorrow [01:12:00] data.

Um, there will start to be an economy around this, and if you're a

millionaire, you'll be able to participate in the tier of data that's

actually mostly accurate.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm.

Nate McBride: And is, um, customized to who you are. If you are in the

bracket of income, that is what we would call low lower class income,

you will not be able to afford that data.

You'll be, you'll be given data that's mostly ad based, that is

focused on tailoring specific messages to you based on all kinds of

economic principles to get you to make decisions, to do certain things

effectively. The complete loss of autonomy.

Kevin Dushney: This is a Black Mirror episode. Yep. Right. And upgrade

to our platinum plus tier.

Nate McBride: Exactly. Ads are removed. You only need to think about

what's already been happening over the last 10 years with these sort

of, oh, get the first three articles free, then pay for the rest on

New York Times, wall Street Journal, these other sort of [01:13:00]

freemium to non freemium models that have been out there.

Freemium is a wonder wonderful model and case study on just how to get

people hooked on a thing. But when it comes to data and you have to

pay to get the actual news, um, I love what these companies like Wall

Street Journal won't do. You know, someone sends you the article, you

can read the first paragraph and then it blurs out.

Yeah. Blurs out the rest. Fucking fantastic. 'cause that's how it's

going to be for every piece of data in five years

Kevin Dushney: though. Neat. I mean, the so upstream of that though,

is there a ever a backlash where people no longer are, is willing to

be the product? Because that's how Meta has been so successful so far,

is you are the product and volunteer willingly giving your data.

And people know it. It's well known at this point where before it was

hidden, but now it's well known. Now it goes even further. [01:14:00]

And is there a, is there a, you know, is that one of the big blow ops

is like, okay, I'm sick of this, you know, I'm moving all my stuff

into, you know, proton mail and other things that are not scrapable

by, by you as a company to, to escape this.And people know it. It's well known at this point where before it was

hidden, but now it's well known. Now it goes even further. [01:14:00]

And is there a, is there a, you know, is that one of the big blow ops

is like, okay, I'm sick of this, you know, I'm moving all my stuff

into, you know, proton mail and other things that are not scrapable

by, by you as a company to, to escape this.

And what is, what effect does that have on the monetization of that

data? I just,

Nate McBride: my hot take on this is a, you know, our generation is,

has weaned itself off, or is weaning itself off of social media. Mm-

hmm. Generation behind us is not, they're all in a hundred percent.

And guess where they're not invested?

They're not invested in email, they're not invested in the web.

They're invested in apps, right? Yeah. They're invested in, they're

cognitive delivery system. And so they don't care about data in the,

in the way that we care about data. Mm-hmm. And this is completely

anecdotal. I have nothing to back this up, but this is, this is based

on a lot of what I would call in the same room evidence that they

don't give a fuck about [01:15:00] any world news.

They only care about a TikTok feed. And so when we talk about our

concerns about data, the next generation isn't having these same

concerns. They're like, oh, so I have to pay to get a newspaper roll.

I'm not gonna pay to get it. I don't need the news. That's right.

Yeah. Great. Just not have it. The great duping.

Mike Crispin: There was a, an article today, I can't remember where I

saw it, um, about how badly the, the freemium news organizations are

getting crushed Yes. Right now because of the, the Geminis of the

world and the, you know, that, that are able to pull that data. I do

think that, let's go back to meta for a second. That meta will pay,

will pay those news organizations for access to their news stories.

They'll pay for them and they will still give it to you for free.

[01:16:00] And you will give the meta everything. You'll give them

your data, your everything else. Give them your life. And that'll be,

that'll be the only way you can get this stuff. And again, that's, I

mean, in some respects, that's what's happening.

Today with Google, um, and Google News and other things or Apple News.

You either pay for the iPhone and get the, the subscription for

everything. Mm-hmm. Or you go to Google News and you have a Google one

subscription and you get access to more stuff is in bulk. I see that

happening with the AI models as well and where it's procured for you.

The other thing is the, uh, emergence of podcasts largely have emerged

because of paywalls and because of, um, paid television or for online

or HBO or news documentaries or other things where all the great

interviews, right. Everything isKevin Dushney: a subscription model. Yeah.

Mike Crispin: And, and something else will emerge to help fill that

void if we get to a true, um, I think data economy where nobody who

can get access to data or will know [01:17:00] the better to get

access to the data because someone will provide it for free at an, at

a different type of expense.

Like you said, Nate, at a different, in a different way that you're

paying, you may not realize you're paying, but you are similar to what

we're dealing with right now.

Nate McBride: Same thing as right now. Well, he talked about, he

talked about the supply chain, the supply chain effect. And so, uh,

how hard is this to imagine?

'cause it's gonna happen in the next 12 months, I would say. How hard

is this to imagine where you go and buy a new tv, it's like a 65 inch

fucking awesome TV at Walmart and you come home and you plug it in and

you got a first thing you gotta do is log in and create an account.

The second thing you gotta do is you gotta subscribe to the TV.

Right. You subscribe to the tv, you get all the things, then you have

agree, agree to all the terms, you have to agree to all the terms, and

you have a TV plan. Mm-hmm. And we're, we're going right back to the,

the advent of cable right now. Like we've come full circle, but now

totally you're gonna get delivered to you things that are specific to

geographical location, who [01:18:00] you are, like what's your

profile and whatever else.

And that becomes your tv. Your TV becomes an app, uh, becomes

basically a large iPhone. Yep, yep, yep. Or a social media device,

right? I mean, it's already happening. I had to log into my LG TV at

home, at, in, at home and like I made up this fake shit and I get

logged out. I have to keep creating fake accounts, but it's keeps

pushing me to go this way.

A year from now, you'll simply buy a TV that's linked, linked to one

of these bigger data providers.

DJ Crispotek: Yep.

Nate McBride: And mass produce 'em. Mm-hmm. Um, and there'll be a

single stream now. So your personality on meta will pass right through

Mike Crispin: May. I, I I would, it's not fully there, but I'd argue

that the Google TV is that right now you log into Google TV and you

getting all your channels, you're getting all your favorites.

Your same thing withNate McBride: Amazon Prime, the the Fire Stick tv. Yeah, yeah,

Mike Crispin: exactly. You're being fed that now. But, and I guess,

[01:19:00] but you still have a choice. Like, I

Nate McBride: can buy a TV and then I can buy the thing and attach to

a tv.

Kevin Dushney: Right.

Nate McBride: That's right. That's right. But now you, now you fully

single stream it. So now I have a cable provider that's probably

providing me internet.

That internet is subsidized by the TV manufacturer, so that they're

both working together to provide one single set of data. And like, I

can go to CNN or I can go to Fox on my tv, but guess what? I'm getting

curated versions of that data based on who I am. I'm not even getting

the real source of that data.

Kevin Dushney: I mean, that also might be set up at the point of sale,

right? Where you're not even, you're not even do it. You could like go

through hoop to opt out, but if you buy it from Amazon, like it's

already set up and linked to your account and knows everything about

you as it arrives on your door. Yeah.

Mike Crispin: Yeah. I, I, I agree.

I, I think it a lot, I think a lot of it is, is already well on its

way if it's not there already, where you don't have a, you have choice

of what channel to watch, but Right. I do think if, it [01:20:00]

depends on where the media goes too. If, if there is enough money

behind the traditional news media and cable media stations, uh, and,

and entertainment, you know, uh, Netflixes of the world, let's say.

DJ Crispotek: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: Um, they, they'll continue to make money and they'll

make it very difficult for competitors to drag everything into one

single stream to, to people.

Nate McBride: It seems there'll be a day in the not too distant future

where when we see a weather report, we'll look back at that with some

sort of nostalgia. Oh my God.

There's a guy standing in front of a green screen. It's funny you say

that because

Mike Crispin: there's a YouTube channel. I love it. It's, it's just

the Weather Channel music. Someone recorded the Weather Channel. Oh

God, remember the used to play the, the digit, just the digitized

type, and it just goes on for hours and it's like, wow.Mike Crispin: there's a YouTube channel. I love it. It's, it's just

the Weather Channel music. Someone recorded the Weather Channel. Oh

God, remember the used to play the, the digit, just the digitized

type, and it just goes on for hours and it's like, wow.

That was, I don't give, I never thought that was cool, but now it

like, brings back all these memories, you know?

Nate McBride: Well, I'm just, I'm just saying [01:21:00] like, I, I

think, yes. Yeah, I think we'll look back on this as a sense of, it'll

be almost like a, I don't know, like going to Sturbridge Village and

seeing people make butter.

Like, oh

DJ Crispotek: my

Nate McBride: God, I remember that's how we see the weather. There was

a guy who stood and pointed at a screen and told us it was gonna be

all right and gave us a three day forecast or the weekend forecast.

Mike Crispin: H how, how long do you guys think that the majority of

what we're talking about from a content, at least visual content is

just gonna be in these?

I mean, we're probably three years from that. If that, if that

Nate McBride: Oh, where I would, I would say the technol, the

technology is there, Mike, I don't think we have the a, the ener, the

battery, um, life to go with that, nor do we have the infrastructure

for 5G and wifi sustain it. I mean, that would be my only, I mean,

Mike Crispin: three, three years from now I'm saying you're think in

three years it'll be there.

Nate McBride: Uh, I think three, three years from now you'll have a

device, no question about it that can do. That and all [01:22:00]

kinds of other scary shit. I mean, we're right on the edge of that,

right? But in terms of how long can it hold a battery, how can long

can it hold a charge? Um,

Mike Crispin: I think that's when the fundamental shift happens where

what you are seeing, uh, is truly only fur eyes only.

So right now you got a phone, you can show someone a phone. Yeah. But

once it's really drilled into your head through your glasses or some

implant or whatever, I hate to black mirror it, but you know, as I

just see glasses, I think that's the opportunity to start to stream

single lines of data and information into people in a much more

efficient way where there'll be a more phy and that where I think we

get, we get to true more of a data economy model, is what I'm saying.I think the delivery mechanism for it isn't there today. And when that

emerges, I think there'll be a new business model in which these

companies will latch onto.

Nate McBride: Okay. Well, um hmm. We've talked about [01:23:00] the

vision. We've talked about industry 5.0, we've talked about your loss

of autonomy in this world. We scared ourselves with Ray Wing's

predictions.

So your IT leader listening to this right now, and you're thinking,

okay, thank you. It's the modern day, but why the fuck will I go back

to work tomorrow? What is, that's a great question. Well, let's go

around the horn and say what's the advice? I mean, what is the fight

that we wanna make? To keep going and keep doing the, keep doing this?

DJ Crispotek: Well, I mean, I, I don't think I

Nate McBride: take paycheck out and then this fun out, the real reason

why any IT leader would want to continue on in this, in this one in

zero landscape and continue to make decisions that are the best for

autonomy.

Mike Crispin: I think depending on, I think if you are, you know, in

our, in our industry, a a lot of, a lot of the mindset when you learn

about what you [01:24:00] are doing to help your company, whether it's

help patients or help come up with the next, uh, product that will

really help people.

Yeah. Even if, even if you've, even if you lose some autonomy in

getting to that point in terms of what systems or what approach you

take, and maybe some of that is laid out for you, you as a human can

still make a huge impact on making things successful Yep. And driving

things forward. Sure. And, and I, you know, I said this in the last

episode a little bit too, is.

I think the, the most important thing that we, we, we stay fo that we

need to stay focused on is the people. The people we hire, the people

we work with, the people we work for.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm.

Mike Crispin: And all of these other technologies and processes that,

uh, are out there only bolster those relationships and make them build

trust or make us more successful as a company.

Make us individually successful, or help us extend a network. Because

I think without the network and without the internal network you have

in your organization [01:25:00] with different people Yeah. Everything

else crumbles.Kevin Dushney: Yeah. So just becomes sterile

Mike Crispin: to, to be in it for the people is I think is what gets

me going and still like, makes me regret when I leave, leave different

companies.

It's always about the people you leave behind and the relationships

you've built. And I think that's what keeps me going, even if there's

a loss of autonomy with some of the decision making.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. I, I

Mike Crispin: think I can get some of that back by having the autonomy

I have with peers and partners and, and, and, and, um, and, you know,

relationships, like the relationship we have, you know, people that

have worked together, have partnered together or share ideas.

I think it was, as long as we keep the momentum going in that respect,

there's always a reason to keep going. Um, yeah,

Kevin Dushney: I, I totally agree. I mean, I think, I think that's,

you know, like you said it perfectly, when you leave a company, that's

what you really miss is like the team you built. Um, all those

relationships you've formed, depending on how long you've been there

and, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to let go of that and you might.

Do you willing to give up a lot of [01:26:00] autonomy or, you know,

many other things to keep that alive, you know, even to your own

detriment, right? Yeah, it's important. Sure. But, um, you know, I

don't think that can go away. So I think to, to get to your question,

the, I think, you know, your ability to make impact and just

relationships and interaction, you know, has to be the, the constant.

Otherwise, like to your point, why do you, why would you wanna go to

work? You know?

DJ Crispotek: Well, I mean, I'm not trying to like the robots and

Kevin Dushney: you're running a field of robots. Like, like what? Why

do you want go to work? What's your motivation there? Right? I mean, I

can, it's an extreme, but you get the point.

Nate McBride: Practically speaking, there are people that just want to

try and get to retirement before this all comes down. There are people

that in inherently believe that there's a way to make this all work

with the people that they have and things that they do. There's people

that think that they can sort of sidestep this.

I think it's in the middle of all this. I think if you're gonna go

into work Monday morning and you're gonna say, geez, how do I think

about [01:27:00] this? First of all, you should start thinking about

your long-term IT strategy. And I'm not talking about two year, I'm

talking about as far out as you can think for the current company and

your next two companies when and how you're gonna evaluate technology

investments.I think it's in the middle of all this. I think if you're gonna go

into work Monday morning and you're gonna say, geez, how do I think

about [01:27:00] this? First of all, you should start thinking about

your long-term IT strategy. And I'm not talking about two year, I'm

talking about as far out as you can think for the current company and

your next two companies when and how you're gonna evaluate technology

investments.

So when you evaluate an investment today, it's faster, cheaper. It

gives us the benefits we need, et cetera. Is there, is there a way to

ask a new question, which is, does this empower our people? Um, does

it or does it make us more resilient? And, and then you can add these

elements in there and maybe, you know, for now the answers are gonna

be, well, no, not necessarily.

Or actually, you know, no, not resilient right now, today. It doesn't

mean you don't do it, it just means that, okay, is that the right

priority then? And then you should get serious about human machine

collaboration. And if you're not already training people, and I'm, I

mean, yes, upskilling is great. It's a wonderful term.

I'm doing it, we're all doing it. But I'm talking about like

[01:28:00] the, the beyond upskilling to training them to not only

just know how to do a thing, but then how to work with that thing

every day. So everyone's been training on AI in my company, but is

everyone using every day? Nope. No. No. Even though they know that

they could, and they, they have been given examples of how to, they're

not so upskilling.

Okay, I get a check mark. But human machine collaboration, F minus.

Um, I would say that additionally as an IT leader, you should be using

your autonomy that you've been building up all this time to drive

sustainability. Get IOT sensors. It doesn't mean I, I mean it doesn't

have to not have them just because they're not research or

manufacturing or some cool thing, it can get them too.

Um, you can look at resource consumption in real time. Um, and then

lastly, build resilient systems. [01:29:00] And this is something that

I think about a lot I've been thinking about more and more, uh, sort

of in the last few weeks, which is, okay, I've opened up the

toothpaste tube, I let this toothpaste out, people are using it.

I can't put it back in. But how do I make sure that, that if this

whole thing goes completely, you know, ass up. We don't, we are not

affected at all. 'cause I asked that question about everything else I

do. If my security vendor fails, does that kill us? If my x, y, Z

vendor fails, does that kill us? In all cases, I have a, the best

mitigation plan I have, I do not have a mitigation plan yet for ai.

If it stops working, what do I do? And I don't want my whole company

just not know what to do if they can't use AI every day. So the flip

side, getting everybody to that human machine collaboration element is

also being able to say, but if it doesn't work, you're still a human

being that can think.If it stops working, what do I do? And I don't want my whole company

just not know what to do if they can't use AI every day. So the flip

side, getting everybody to that human machine collaboration element is

also being able to say, but if it doesn't work, you're still a human

being that can think.

Kevin Dushney: What did [01:30:00] people do when chat GT was down for

a while this week?

Nate McBride: It's a great point.

Kevin Dushney: I probably used a

Nate McBride: different geni. I heard from my wife

Kevin Dushney: and she's like, well, you know, what do I do this

thing? This has been down. I'm like, yeah, it's, it's down. Oh, you

know? Yeah. Like, honestly, I mean, Google it down, you know, it's

like,

Nate McBride: it feels, get out a pen. It's, I purposely that's, I

purposely do two things, which is one, every time I train somebody and

I, every time I talk to company about ai, I always start off with the

slide that says there's no AI mandate at Alio.

Yeah. I reinforce that. Model number. Number two, I do not put this as

a high risk, high production item. I say, if you're going to use this,

that's fantastic. Use it as a force multipliers and add on. But we

are, it is not a production system. It is not a high risk system for

us. We are now putting all of our eggs in this basket.

Feel free to use it, but you must understand and realize there are

other alternatives now. That's me telling them. [01:31:00]

Kevin Dushney: Yeah, but that doesn't land. I mean, I know, and I

know, especially if it's a force multiplier. They're like, wait a

second, I'm dependent upon this now. It's like saying the first one's

free. Yeah.

And,

Nate McBride: and if you weren't gonna say that I weren't. No. If you

weren't gonna say that, I was gonna say that because this brings us

all the way back to the beginning. So you give someone a tool.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm.

Nate McBride: You train them on it, you tell them to use it. So this

is you being an IT leader, exercising your autonomy to make a decision

to help the business, then that tool doesn't work.

Mm-hmm. Or ceases to work your, we've, and we covered this in the show

multiple times, then it's your responsibilities as an IT leader to

have an alternative plan, and they should be able to know and

understand what it is. We've only taken for granted up until now that

every single PowerPoint deck they've created everything that they've

ever made that they've done [01:32:00] by themselves, and they know

how to do that.Mm-hmm. Or ceases to work your, we've, and we covered this in the show

multiple times, then it's your responsibilities as an IT leader to

have an alternative plan, and they should be able to know and

understand what it is. We've only taken for granted up until now that

every single PowerPoint deck they've created everything that they've

ever made that they've done [01:32:00] by themselves, and they know

how to do that.

But if as soon as you give them something that replaces all that work,

they've just spontaneously

DJ Crispotek: forget how

Nate McBride: to do that.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. Those skills are all gonna atrophy.

Nate McBride: Yeah. And so, so we have to back

Kevin Dushney: to Wally again

Nate McBride: as IT leaders, right? Yes. Like with any tool at all.

Any tool. Hmm. You have to go out there and tell people like, I'm

gonna show you how to use this and it's gonna make you do X, Y, Z.

However, just understand you still have to do normal things and this

could, this could stop working. Yeah. Like any other tool. And as, as

Mike has said multiple times, it could just be any other tool. And we

have to, I think, be very careful about. Over, like, as we would with,

again, with anything over reliance on any one area, that creates a

huge amount of risk for us in a dangerous way.

Kevin Dushney: Hmm. So, yeah, I, the AI part's [01:33:00] different

though, because like, Hey, your ERPs down. It's like, well, all right,

I'll go take a break, wait till it gets back up. But I'm jamming away

on, on Chachi PT or Claude or whatever, and all of a sudden it's down

for, you know, half the day. Like, what, what am I supposed to do?

I know. I, I'm whatcha talking about whatcha supposed to do? Do you,

it's a crazy question. Right? Still the same, right? Go home

DJ Crispotek: for the day.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah, exactly. I'm down. AI is down. Um, I think,

Mike Crispin: I think in some respects, I mean, we've had Office 365

outages or Google Slack outages, and people are like, this fucking

sucks.

But yeah, it's a fact of life. I mean, this stuff happens and, uh, I

mean, really, I mean, like, if something's down for six, seven hours,

people get pissed. But they do now they, it's different than, like,

when we first started, like when we had controlled the systems and it

was down, I was like, what the fuck? Why can't you bring it back up?But yeah, it's a fact of life. I mean, this stuff happens and, uh, I

mean, really, I mean, like, if something's down for six, seven hours,

people get pissed. But they do now they, it's different than, like,

when we first started, like when we had controlled the systems and it

was down, I was like, what the fuck? Why can't you bring it back up?

Yeah. And now it's like, [01:34:00] oh, uh, so my friend at this

company, they're down, my friend at that company, they're down.

They're kinda like, Ugh.

Kevin Dushney: Oh, you know,

Mike Crispin: we're

Kevin Dushney: what? Now? I feel better. Yeah, it's everyone's

Mike Crispin: fucked. So, you

Nate McBride: know. Well, but okay, so are we telling people this

though? Like, are we exercising the autonomy that we have to tell

people the same thing about ai that we're telling about other things,

right.

Which is this, it's, it, it's not some magic toy. It never stops.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's not magic. Definitely

Kevin Dushney: agree. I think a lot of people use

Mike Crispin: it.

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. I haven't, I haven't pushed on that as, you know,

I, my focus is more on, you know, hey, this is, this is how this can

enable you or make you better, but I personally, I haven't pushed the,

you know, over reliance piece or could go down or, you know, have a

backup plan because, you know, I think it's just, it's synergistic in

a way where you're [01:35:00] excited to enable someone with something

new and they're very excited to receive it.

You, you, the tendency for better or worse, is to sort of ignore the,

Hey, if this was rug pulled for half the day, does this impact your

job? Or can you just revert back to how you did it before I gave you

this tool? Right. It's less efficient.

Nate McBride: Well, Kevin, I mean basically let's suppose that, let's

suppose that you asked that question and as it turns out, an

overwhelming majority of people say, my, my job would be severely

impacted.

Yeah. That, you know, what you have to do is then you have to go out

and build one. Yeah.

Kevin Dushney: And then, yeah. Now you need to treat it like any

other, and, you know, critical enterprise system. Right. Move from,

move into that role. Yes. Yeah. AndKevin Dushney: And then, yeah. Now you need to treat it like any

other, and, you know, critical enterprise system. Right. Move from,

move into that role. Yes. Yeah. And

Nate McBride: that's, that's a whole other, that's, Ooh, the second

that you introduce an, um, explicit LLM uh, closed circuit, explicit

LM model into your company.

Mm-hmm. You take on, you, you own it. Yeah. A billion new

responsibilities that you'd never had [01:36:00] before. Yep. Way

beyond development. Um, so, okay, here's what's wild. So everything we

talked about this season, so vendor independence, resilient

architectures, innovation frameworks, talent development, blah, blah,

blah.

It all becomes a tool for industry 5.0. I mean, it all becomes part of

this move towards that. The whole point of fighting for autonomy

wasn't just to preserve decision making power. I mean, that's a key

element of it. Yeah. But it wasn't just to do that, it was to have the

freedom to make decisions that actually mattered.

So when you're faced the zero one decision, you can make the decision

that matters most based on all the context, contextual relevance going

on, what else is happening that you need, that you need to make that

decision. And, and the part of that is to use technology to create the

kind of future that you want for your company, that you want for

yourself to work and live in.

And so, industry 5.0. Is what autonomous IT leadership looks like when

it's applied to potentially, I don't know. I don't mean to be like,

um, hyperbolic here, but the biggest [01:37:00] challenge facing this

in the world right now. It's not just enough to maintain independence.

The question is what to do with the independence once you have

Kevin Dushney: it.

Um, well just outta curiosity need. 'cause I, I haven't admittedly

followed a ton, but who's actively writing about 5.0 right now? It's

substantial.

Nate McBride: It's a substantial list. I can give you some. So I'll

tell you about my research right now. I'll just, I think this is

actually kinda important. Lemme just go through some of these real

quick.

Um, yeah,

Kevin Dushney: I mean, you can put it in the show notes too, but do

you have stuff off top of your head? I'm just curious. Like who you're

Nate McBride: No, no, no. So, um, it might be interesting for folks,

so TTWI Global had a report on this that I read. Mm-hmm. Um, uh,

research and innovation, Europa eu, uh, ResearchGate. Yeah. Uh, I read

an article, two articles from ResearchGate.Nate McBride: No, no, no. So, um, it might be interesting for folks,

so TTWI Global had a report on this that I read. Mm-hmm. Um, uh,

research and innovation, Europa eu, uh, ResearchGate. Yeah. Uh, I read

an article, two articles from ResearchGate.

Um, the NIH had, uh, an article called Towards Industry 5.0 [01:38:00]

Challenges, enablers of Intelligent Manufacturing Technology

Implementation under the Perspective of Sustainability. That was NIH.

Yep. Uh, the UEX from, from Europa had an opinion of the European

Economic and Social Committee Industry 5.0.

DJ Crispotek: Mm-hmm.

Nate McBride: Uh, Forbes. Let's see who else. Um, I mean, I read a ton

of stuff, I think, I think I think about some good ones. So Bears, Deb

had a big article on this, um, code work, MDPI, another research gate,

um,

amazon.com had one. You've got a notebook l full of these, don't you?

No, no, no. This is, uh, I should have started, started a notebook.

Lm. Yeah. Um, this is, this is from a Google slash Gemini search that

I, okay. I was my Google my whole journey. Started with this back with

Ray Wang, but then I started looking at data economy from data

economy.

I moved into looking at the [01:39:00] comparators between industry

3.0 and 5.0. And from there I got into talking about the delimiters

for 5.0 and 6.0, which no one's really talking about yet. And then I

started just collecting all these articles. Um, I'm, you know, what I

should do now is put all these into a notebook, lm.

Mm-hmm. And, and run it backwards, but it's the end of the season. So

yeah. What am I gonna do next season? Um, next season. So, um, all

right, so let's close it out and then we'll pass some final thoughts.

So as we, as we bring this to a close, um, I think I, we, we, we keep,

we have this sort of rhetorical question that's been hanging out

there.

Like, what's the point of autonomy if for not using it for something

meaningful? Uh, we spent. Well, 19 episodes showing you how to

preserve and exercise autonomy in IT leadership. But Industry 5.0

shows us what happens when autonomous leaders use decision making

power to align technology with human values.

The challenges are gonna get more complex. The technology landscape

will keep evolving at its [01:40:00] ludicrous speed, but autonomous

IT leaders or those who practice autonomy on a regular, on a regular

basis, which is to say, leaders who preserve their ability to make

independent strategic decisions while building capabilities that serve

human-centric, sustainable, and resilient objectives.These are the people that will shape the future. Um, so thanks to

everybody for joining us through this season. Thanks to Kevin and

Mike. Thanks for the conversations, the challenges, the insights,

please, uh, the community of autonomous leaders that still exists out

there. It gives me hope, um, although I will be honest when I say that

I am looking for hope now, and it didn't always used to be that way.

Um, because it's hard now to read even my weekly digests from my

security blogs and my other sort of curated news sources without sort

of wincing Hmm, when I, when I read about [01:41:00] worth with, you

know, the overall state of things. Um, this is not meant to be a

podcast about that though. So keep fighting for autonomy, everybody.

Not as an end in itself, but as the foundation for creating technology

that, you know, you feel best serves human purpose. Um, any thoughts

from either of you for the season? Thanks.

Kevin Dushney: Perfect. Cliffhanger for season three?

Nate McBride: Yeah. Um, right Mike? I, I said I wanna, I wanna

mention, I wanna come back to that in a second.

Kevin, Mike, any final thoughts on the season? I mean, uh,

Mike Crispin: fantastic season. This, there's a lot we got through and

I think very fruitful journey through all these topics and with this

core focus and autonomy and decision making and independence is very

important. Having the ability to make these decisions without,

DJ Crispotek: yeah.

Mike Crispin: All these out forces pushing at you to still be able to

use your own brain and, and make those decisions is, is why a lot of

instances why you've been [01:42:00] hired to begin with,

DJ Crispotek: right? Yeah.

Mike Crispin: You were chosen out of 1,433 applications, um, and we

still can't decide, right? And you've been chosen, like, you're gonna

be trusted to make decisions.

You come in as a leader of a department. Yeah. Like to, and you gotta,

you gotta go into confidence and have that autonomous mind, like

that's what you gotta be doing. So that's why it's important, you

know, we focused on this season and I think we covered a lot of good

points and went to down a few good rabbit holes as well.

Nate McBride: Yeah, I think, I mean all, all that's very well said.

When I think about, um. How I'm going to myself continue to address

this. I, I'll say two things. One, I wish I had thought, started

thinking about this 10 years ago. I don't know why I ever didn't start

thinking about my own autonomy in this light until, you know, we

started, we, we started talking about it last season.Nate McBride: Yeah, I think, I mean all, all that's very well said.

When I think about, um. How I'm going to myself continue to address

this. I, I'll say two things. One, I wish I had thought, started

thinking about this 10 years ago. I don't know why I ever didn't start

thinking about my own autonomy in this light until, you know, we

started, we, we started talking about it last season.

But I really wish I started thinking about this a long time ago

because I would've made different decisions. Mm-hmm. [01:43:00] I

would have, I wouldn't You didn't have a forcing function though then,

right? No, I didn't. And, um, I was for a very long part of my career,

um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say status quo. In fact, I was kind of anti

status quo in a lot of cases.

But I had a relatively singular vision and to a degree, I, I went from

being a one decision maker to a zero decision maker. Hmm. Uh, in a lot

of cases because of that exact mindset. So I wasn't as flexible as I

should have been. I wasn't as resilient as I should have been. And I

really wish I started thinking about this idea way, way back in my

career.

It would've been, it would've been a different outcome, I think. But,

um, we are gonna take some time off for next season, uh, whenever that

begins. And it's TBD. But in terms of topics, I mean, just, I've been

noodling on a few to be quite honest. I will say that, that does not

surprise me in the least. [01:44:00] I had kind of, well, I had kind

of a breakthrough on a, on my run yesterday.

Um, okay. So I'm, I'm finishing out my third book, which is based on

autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of it will be coming from this season of,

of work. Um, and I'm, I started thinking about, you know, what would I

do next for a book? And this idea came to me on this run. 'cause I, I

had a lot of ideas. I've been noodling 'em down, but on, um, the

PowerPoint problem, and in fact, I, I didn't not call you the

PowerPoint problem, the current working title of the book, hold on a

second, is PowerPoint Incorporated.

And, uh, and what I wanted to talk about was, and I, I have a, I, I

immediately stopped, took a, a, a, uh, Google Keep note. So where

presenting came from, why this particular medium is the only one that

exists. Any [01:45:00] alternatives, usage, usage and improper usage

transitions, why do they exist? Fitting ideas into a six byte space,

condensing artistry and redundancy.

And, um, sort of, I'll start, I'll continue to outline it from there

and see where it goes. But I was thinking, and again, this is just one

idea for next season. We tackle, we tackle these things that are exist

that we seemingly have no control over all around us. And try to

figure out why.

Kevin Dushney: Why? Sure. I, I think why we do the things

DJ Crispotek: we do,Kevin Dushney: I think the interesting thing is to predict where they

go too.

Right. For with like, with respect to email, you know, as this becomes

a generational thing, are, are these guys, are the our kids gonna be

using, you know, PowerPoint like we do today? No.

DJ Crispotek: No. There's no way. Right. Exactly. So, and, and why do

we still use it the same way we, we used it today that we used it 30

years ago

Kevin Dushney: because people were [01:46:00] refused to not

communicate this way right now.

That's just, it's so entrenched to, well, it's gonna take, take a lot

of that, that those that, you know, mental model of just rolling off

and retiring before this starts to shift, I think 'cause it's, it's

just so tightly ingrained in, in corporate culture. Like, this is the

only way you can communicate. Well, where are your slots?

I don't have any, I just want to talk. It's all up there. What do you

mean?

DJ Crispotek: Well, maybe, I mean, if we don't do those, if we don't

have a season around that, we could at least do those as jorts for

sure. But yes, for sure. I had some other ideas, but What, what about

about you guys?

Mike Crispin: What do you think the percentage of people, what do you

think the percentage of people who read the slides after they say, can

you send, are you gonna send out these slides?

Pre-reads?

Kevin Dushney: Yeah. The pre-read. Yeah.

Mike Crispin: The, the or and what's the point? Yeah, the post read.

Like, are you gonna, you gonna post these slides somewhere and then

you, and then you post them. Right. And you put 'em up wherever it's,

and then you look at how many people went to look [01:47:00] at 'em.

Kevin Dushney: Zero. You didn't read the pre-read.

You totally didn't listen to me and checked out during the

presentation. And you didn't read the follow up. You're never gonna

get around

Mike Crispin: to it. You're never gonna get around to look at them. I,

I know that. It's okay. I'll, you're gonna, I'll CYA and post them

somewhere for you, but I know you're never gonna see them.Mike Crispin: to it. You're never gonna get around to look at them. I,

I know that. It's okay. I'll, you're gonna, I'll CYA and post them

somewhere for you, but I know you're never gonna see them.

Nate McBride: Yeah, I don't remember those slides. I have a double

great story for you, or a story I find funny, which is that we had

our, um, IT governance committee meeting, uh, last week and I had to

go before the committee to continue to justify our use of box. Like

every year we have to, you know, big ticket items, they get

rejustified.

So I'd sent everybody out in advance to the meeting and the pre-read

two weeks ago, I said, you must read this before the meeting. I'm not

gonna go over this deck. So the morning of and I, we had three

different decks that were for this meeting, a new proposal for new

business and two, two readouts. Um, and I went and checked [01:48:00]

and it was the same seven of 12 people that had read all three, but

the other five didn't.

So I go into the meeting

DJ Crispotek: and I'm like, um, okay, so pull some data. It's not the

pre-read. And I happen to notice that five people in this room didn't

read it. Just, I just dead stopped it right there. Right. Yeah. I let

it hang for a couple seconds, like 10 seconds. Put that perfect. If

you

Nate McBride: can't, if you can't read the pre-reads, I'm gonna have

to ask you to step out of this, this committee before the, for the

next meeting.

Just that. Um, so there was that. But then as part of my deck, and

again, like I said, I had to come in and just, um, you know, present

on how Box is doing. I gave everyone a little

DJ Crispotek: data overview of how much data we have in box, et

cetera. And I kind of broke it down by types of documents.

Nate McBride: I said, just so we're all all clear, we have 54,200

presentations for a company that's been in existence for just under

eight [01:49:00] years.

That's just the PowerPoints, just, just

DJ Crispotek: PowerPoints. 54,000 PowerPoints. Okay. That makes my

head wanna

Kevin Dushney: explode right there. Yeah,

DJ Crispotek: that's insane. Just insane. Just

Kevin Dushney: a phase one company too, like this. It's crazy.DJ Crispotek: But go look at, go look at your data and you'll see.

Yeah.

Nate McBride: Uh, it's, this is why when I, when I, so what happened

was I had this meeting and then I, the next morning I went out for my

run.

So yeah, this was Monday. I went out for my run to yesterday, Tuesday.

And I was just like

DJ Crispotek: chuckling in my mind about this, this number and. For

years and years and years, I've been sort of questioning like, why do

we do this? It feels like such an eight man behavior. Mm-hmm. You

know, hear screen, look, picture, you know, pretty, uh, squares.

So, [01:50:00] but that, that was one idea for, for season three. I'll

stop right there. See if you, Mike, if you had any ideas or Kevin, you

had any ideas.

Kevin Dushney: I, I mean, I'm still stuck on this, like what really

fry your noodle is of those 50,000 documents, like how many were

actually read and, and then again, how many actually served an actual

purpose.

The real data, the real data

Nate McBride: I wish I had was when it happened because Yeah,

obviously, obviously it wasn't like, you can't average that over all

the years. Like in the first two years of the company, they probably

made, you know,

DJ Crispotek: a couple hundred. Yeah. Maybe. Right? So there was a

period of time when it just went outta control and it spiraled ever

since that moment, I mean, averaged out over say five years.

Yeah. That's 10,100 document. 100 PowerPoints a year. Geez. It's like

that how per

Kevin Dushney: person, how many man hour? Like [01:51:00] just

DJ Crispotek: so many Point seven 50 per, per seven 50 per person. Per

year. That's, that's insane. That's ludicrous. And I only make like

four, so someone's picking up my average. Um. All right. What else we

got, Mike?

Any, any other thoughts on, on season three or you want,

Nate McBride: just hang on, hang out in the air and,Mike Crispin: no, I think, um, one thing I was going to mention is,

and we talked a little bit about it, I think in the second episode

this season is just the, it's less sexy than some of the AI and other

things that we've talked about.

But is, uh, I think the ecosystem that's going to emerge around

verification and verif, not just verifying data, but verifying people,

people, there's already vendors who are trying to do this, but yeah, I

think it branches out beyond business. So it's, you know, I

verification bring your own

Nate McBride: [01:52:00] identity to work.

Can we, can we, can we say that bigger, we say just identification,

Mike Crispin: identification and verification? Yeah, so I think

there's, I, I think identity verification is, is kind of into the same

and how we, how we identi, how we identify each other and then

identify software and or, or data through, through the, through the

same lens.

Like we talked a little bit about the approach to AI being less about

managing technology and more about managing people and how we'll

manage and trust AI will be, will interview ai. We won't buy ai. We

will hire ai and I think there's sort of this thought process around

how do you verify. Who that is or if what it is, let's just say.

And then we also have a huge gap around verifying who we are and that

we are, who we're really, who we are when just from a cyber

perspective or Yeah. Privacy perspective. Great service desk tools

now, and ways to do it, you know, with a lot of technologies. But

[01:53:00] I think it goes one layer deeper around even and when

hiring someone, there's a background check and whatnot.

Yeah. Is there another, is there another layer there verification that

is, uh, is going to emerge with, because we're gonna have so much

manufactured information from different systems Yeah. That we need to

be able to verify people better.

Kevin Dushney: Right? Yeah. I, I think that's an interesting topic. I

mean, it's already starting to happen now.

It's like, like, I don't know if you've seen this, Mike, Microsoft

even has it, where it's like a trusted id. You can start to follow up

in other government agencies now where it's like, you gotta take

pictures, front back license, verify it's you, like, you know, coin

base does it, crypto exchanges do it. So

Mike Crispin: DocuSign has that huge thing, right?That huge orientation Right. That does that now too.

Kevin Dushney: Yep.

Mike Crispin: Yep. But, but I, I almost look at it more as just how do

we, how does it branch business and, and consumer, because I think

that's where the best

Kevin Dushney: Yeah.

Mike Crispin: The best identity and verification [01:54:00] models are

going to actually be relevant because

Kevin Dushney: on the consumer side they'll start there.

I agree. And how,

Mike Crispin: how it'll flood into enterprise over time.

Nate McBride: You know what's interesting? Um. I think that's a really

good topic, actually, even next season, and I'll think about it a lot

more. We could certainly, there'd be a, there'd be a blockchain

component to this, uh, season, and I always said one of the biggest

barriers to getting blockchain ID in this company would be that half

this half the country, um, is against the government intervening in

their lives.

Mm-hmm. Despite all their other actions to that reason that, and they

would be the last people in the world, you know, over my dead hands,

you're not getting my gun kind of people to see their identity to an

electronic bunches of zeros and ones, but, um, in the light of this

conversation, they may not have a choice, and when they may not have a

choice, becomes they don't have a choice.

Then you see blockchain become Yeah. Uh, yeah. If it's [01:55:00] not

Kevin Dushney: owned the future,

Mike Crispin: if it's not owned by anybody, it becomes more

attractive.

Kevin Dushney: The decentralization becomes more attractive. Exactly.

Nate McBride: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it's an interesting little twist

on how to get people to do a thing that you suspect they won't want to

do.

Kevin Dushney: Mm-hmm. Yep. When season, when does season three start?

Because I'm trying to think of like how much is gonna change between

now and then? There could be other Yes, that's true. 15 topics. Right.

Well, I mean, I think we'll have a whole new list by the time we start

it, but those are, yeah.Kevin Dushney: Mm-hmm. Yep. When season, when does season three start?

Because I'm trying to think of like how much is gonna change between

now and then? There could be other Yes, that's true. 15 topics. Right.

Well, I mean, I think we'll have a whole new list by the time we start

it, but those are, yeah.

Nate McBride: Shoot for the fall.

And, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think the idea, I don't think

that the overall topic of identity and verification no itself would

change very much. Much of the themes would remain the same. I think

we'll be able to look at some new technologies, certainly, and poke

some holes in there. And, you know, to Mike's point, he's made this

several times about we won't buy ai, we'll interview ai.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then the verification of that AI that can become sort

of, uh, a core theme. I mean, it's a, you know, the good part about

that season would be we wouldn't have to talk about AI very much. Um,

[01:56:00] instead of like, this season that would be ideal. Kept

coming here. Less of a, yeah. Less, I mean, and a topic doesn't

require an, and then we could have some jorts, uh, uh, on email and

PowerPoint.

'cause you know what's gonna happen is it's just, it's a worm in my

brain now. It's like a virus. I'm never gonna stop being able to think

about PowerPoint is the most insidious, viral, malware piece of shit

tool ever invented. So I have to, I'm gonna have to talk about it and

I, I might write a book about it, but we'll see.

Um, I, I think this

Kevin Dushney: is gonna be eating

Nate McBride: at you until the fall. Yeah. It's gonna eat at

DJ Crispotek: me, which is a good thing. I'm gonna come outta the

gate, like guns blazing about this. Like, when do we do with the jt?

Let's open with a jt Yeah. PowerPoint.

Nate McBride: All right. So, all right. I have a book to finish. Mike

has a nutrients a live LP to finish.

Where's. Go,

Mike Crispin: uh, going to Spotify and uh, [01:57:00] I'll, I'll send

you the link.

Nate McBride: Yeah, yeah. No, we're gonna, we're actually gonna, we're

gonna fade out. We're gonna play it one more time at the end of the

episode. Okay. 'cause I think by the third time you hear it, it's

really, it becomes part of your, like, it gets into your brain.

Yeah. Uh, it does. I mean, not enough toKevin Dushney: displace the PowerPoint thing, but still

Nate McBride: No, but in a, it's in a positive way though. So that's,

everybody remember this. Be nice. It's easier than being a dick. Uh,

be nice to everybody, your it people, your animals, your elders. Um,

give us five stars. Buy us a beer. Join the competition on Slack.

Until next season, stay on autonomous. Don't, don't ban our merge.

Don't, don't ban our merge. Stay autonomous, stay purposeful, and keep

building the future positively. That's the only way it's gonna work.

Mike and Kevin, great to have you on. Thanks again. Good to see you

too. We'll see each other. Happy to be on

Kevin Dushney: the wrap up, uh, episode of the season, so thank you.

You're welcome. Having an

DJ Crispotek: awesome, onto, onto Long July by Mike Crisp Tech, DJ

Crispin. [01:58:00]

Mike Crispin: Have an awesome summer. Don't ever change.

DJ Crispotek: Yes. Don't ever change dude. Don't ever change. Yo. All

right. Here we go. I'm playing now. Oh, great. Okay. Later guys. See

you [01:59:00] [02:00:00] [02:01:00] [02:02:00] guys.