Biotech Bytes: Conversations with Biotechnology / Pharmaceutical IT Leaders

Emerging Tech Trends in Biotechnology with Steven Bressler

• Steve Swan • Episode 15

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The rapid advancements in biotechnology are transforming the industry. Emerging technologies hold the promise of revolutionizing healthcare and enhancing our quality of life.

In this episode, I sit down with Steven Bressler, a fractional CIO from Strategic Technology Management, Inc., to discuss the latest trends in biotechnology. We explore the potential of AI and machine learning, the transformative power of quantum computing, and the advancements in CRISPR technology. 

Steven shares his insights on how these technologies are shaping the future of biotech and what it means for companies and consumers alike.

Tune in to learn how emerging tech trends could impact your work and the industry as a whole.

Specifically, this episode highlights the following themes:

  • Creating a positive work environment and team engagement
  • The impact of CRISPR and edge computing on biotechnology
  • Importance of cybersecurity in emerging tech

Links from this episode:

Steven Bressler [00:00:00]:
The biotech industry has embraced blockchain already in order to exchange information between payers, manufacturers and health institutions to be able to separate out the PHI from the data. And there are a number of companies now implementing blockchain technology specifically to support the data transfer there.

Steve Swan [00:00:33]:
Welcome to Biotech Bytes, where we talk about technology with IT leaders within the biotech industry and how they feel it's going to be affecting our industry. Today I'm joined by Steve Bressler, who has been a fractional CIO with some digital, you know, advanced technologies that he's been, you know, working on for many, many years and working with different companies for many years. Thanks for joining me, Steve. Appreciate it.

Steven Bressler [00:00:58]:
My pleasure, Steve, I always enjoy talking to you.

Steve Swan [00:01:01]:
Yeah, no, I have a lot of great conversations with a lot of good folks like yourself, and that was kind of the impetus for this whole podcast series. So, you know, I don't think today is going to be any different. So again, thank you very much. I always like starting out, Steve, with just kind of getting some background on an individual, you know, so sort of an introduction, you know, share a little bit about your journey and maybe a pivotal moment or two that led you to your, your current roles and your current positions. And what got you here, basically, is what I'm looking at, what I'm looking for.

Steven Bressler [00:01:31]:
Yeah, of course. Well, I went to NYU undergrad, started as a bio major, and I transitioned over to computers and economics while I was at NYU. Before I graduated, JP Morgan Chase recruited me into an executive management program. That was just amazing, a great organization. I spent 14 years there doing software development in the credit card industry and risk management. And from there I went to hsbc.com. and during my journey, I was in charge of global infrastructure for a media company. But I ultimately made my way to Thompson Healthcare.

Steven Bressler [00:02:20]:
I was the CIO of a group of life science companies and got really excited about that. And I went on from there. I went to a number of other organizations where I was in the life science industry where I was responsible for the technology. And if you have never seen the output of what these companies can do to change people's lives, it is just amazing. Trying to cure cancer. I recently worked for a gene therapy company where they were able to cure, in 100% of the cases in clinical trial, a fatal genetic disease. That was just amazing. And I decided at some point I wanted to slow down.

Steven Bressler [00:03:17]:
I left corporate America and I went back like a lot of us who leave. And now I'm doing fractional chief information work, primarily for the life sciences companies. I do at times, help financial service organizations because I have that background, but my passion is life science organizations.

Steve Swan [00:03:37]:
I guess, you know, coming from financial services into life sciences, you know, financial services being regulated by the SEC, you know, and our industry, life sciences being regulated by the FDA, was it, you know, was it kind of easy to make that easier, maybe, for somebody not dealing with regular regulated environments to make that transition?

Steven Bressler [00:03:56]:
It's so comical that you ask me that, because I tell this to people all the time, because there is this thought in the life science industry that if you haven't worked in life sciences, you can't make the transition over. But just like you said, whether you're working with the SEC or the office of the Controller of the currency or the FDA or the EU, it is just following strict protocol. Strict regulations. The regulations change, but the training I received earlier, early on in my career at JP Morgan, to be methodical and comply with regulations is a transferable skill.

Steve Swan [00:04:46]:
Jeff, really. Okay. Okay, so then, now, so you've done financial services like you said, you still dabble in that. You've gone, transitioned mainly to life sciences. What's your drive there? What's your passion there? Why stick with us? Why stick with life science? Glad to have you. Love having you. But what's. What's it inside you that's saying, hey, I got.

Steve Swan [00:05:06]:
I got to keep.

Steven Bressler [00:05:07]:
I got to keep doing this for the same reason. I'm a volunteer emergency, a medical tech. I'm at the point in my life that I want to try to improve the world. I want my kids to have a better world, but a living. And I love connecting or the dots along the way. I got my MBA in finance. I like helping the companies make money, but what drives me is the opportunity to improve people's life and outcome. I have a 91 year old mother who's still alive, and she is benefiting from modern medicine.

Steven Bressler [00:05:52]:
And I'm hoping that, as I said, my kids and their pierce will live a better life because of some of the work I'm doing.

Steve Swan [00:06:04]:
Yeah, well, I'm sure, you know, I mean, I'm trying to think about this average life expectancy. I think it dipped a little bit during COVID Right, but it did. I think it's coming back. I think, you know, I'm not quite sure. I haven't seen a number lately, but I can ask Chad GPT when we end well. So, actually, that kind of brings me into the next thing that a lot of people are talking about, AI. But some of the emerging technologies, what are your thoughts and feelings around some of the things going on in our world, in the technology world, and as it stands and as it affects life sciences and pharmaceuticals and biotechs now, what are some of those technologies and how do you see them helping us, or I guess hurting us, but helping us in the near future?

Steven Bressler [00:06:46]:
Well, let's talk about hurting us first. We're all aware of software as a service, infrastructure as a service. There is now a ransomware as a service. I don't know if you're aware of this. You could literally go out and buy ransomware as a service where you then pay the bad actors a percentage of what you get. So as a evildoer, I don't even need to be that good technically, because I'm purchasing a service. So obviously, wow, that's a concern. But you talk about AI.

Steven Bressler [00:07:31]:
AI, which we used to call a machine learning in the past, has been around for 20 years. A lot of the predictive software tools like ServiceNow would be using AI tools in order to see trends, to issue an alert that you're going to run out of capacity. Where we're seeing AI now getting the bad name is obviously it's being commercially used and people are writing papers and such. But the benefit AI brings to the biotech side is it allows personalized medicine, you know, between AI and next generation sequencing type of technologies, you're able to advance what you're able to do and, and go through many what ifs in either a drug compound or side effects and moving it ahead. So I think AI overall will be positive. The issues outside of biotech obviously is profiling people and such that technology still needs to get your hands around so we don't enter into it orwellian 1984 paradigm. But some of the other technology which is going to be amazing for biotech as we move forward is for example, quantum computing, okay? As the biotech companies look to go through and do various iterations of compounds and gene splicing, being able to funnel quantum computing will definitely pay off. And speaking of gene splicing, CRISPR technology, okay, is what it is.

Steven Bressler [00:09:40]:
And I don't know if you're aware that I know of about 350 companies right now dabbling in that space. So that technology is just going to go and improve everybody's life a longer term. Are you going to have things like bio printing where they'll be able to print a kidney for you and such? So that type of technology is out there as well as the mRNA technology which you've heard so much about. But the other things that from a pure technical standpoint, blockchain. Now, when everybody thinks of blockchain, they immediately think of cyber currency, right? And crypto mining. The biotech industry has embraced blockchain already in order to exchange information between payers, manufacturers, and health institutions to be able to separate out the PHI from the data. And there are a number of companies now implementing blockchain technology specifically to support the data transfer there, which is a very good use of the technology. As I said, everybody thinks about printing money, but no blockchain is being a user.

Steven Bressler [00:11:14]:
And in biotech, you have, I would say, three items that tie together edge computing, the Internet of Things, and RPA, which is the robotic process automation. And the reason I lumped these three items together is because in a manufacturing environment, you want to have your edge computing on site. You have the Internet of things right now because every widget in the supply manufacturing chain can be enabled. And then you could use robotic automation. Why does that matter? Okay, well, on one side, there is a tremendous opportunity to reduce expenses, and on the other side, again, it's a triangle. The next side is, you could improve quality now, and the third side of the triangle is compliance. You are now able to monitor the temperature, the humidity, the ph, fill in the blank of whatever you need to of this process in a continuous loop, making modifications as needed. So all these technologies are bringing the life science companies to a point where they could be very successful if implemented appropriately.

Steven Bressler [00:12:52]:
The challenges, there's always a challenge. People need to accept a technology. Human nature is against change. These technologies need to be implemented correctly, with a strategic focus as they're being implemented. You know, many times, companies will slap something on. You really need to look at the big picture. And the last item, which, again, is, stand to say we need to worry about the security and integrity because of bad actors. I mean, I cannot tell you how many times in organizations I had to have discussions with the CEO because they did not want to implement tighter security.

Steven Bressler [00:13:51]:
And the SEC now is requiring more and more security rules around the technology stack. And it's our job as technologists to speak the truth and push this ahead. Nobody likes the fact that they need to do multifactor authentication multiple times, that they need to have a laptop that can only be used for work purposes because it's locked down. It's what we need to do in order to stay successful. Otherwise, there's a risk that the data will be compromised. There will be ransomware, this eruption of the operations, etcetera.

Steve Swan [00:14:48]:
I was at a networking event last night, and one CIO was talking to another that I overheard and they were talking about, you know, the new guidelines. I guess it's probably the SEC guidelines. If you're hacked and if it's a material event, there's a long formula to determine what sort of material event it is for you. And if it's at a certain level, you got to report it within four days or something like that, right?

Steven Bressler [00:15:09]:
Yes, yes. That was recently enacted because the SEC is, there's been a number of recent hacks. A united healthcare had the company, one of their subsidiaries, called Change Healthcare, I think is the name. Their hacked had a major impact on the entire supply chain because, I mean, people were unable to get their medicine and such. This is really a big deal. And the SEC is doing the right thing because we as society need to apply pressure to corporate boards and senior leadership teams to take cybersecurity serious upfront.

Steve Swan [00:16:01]:
It's such a small, when you're talking about a company's, you know, P and L. Right. Or their gross, their top line. Right. Flows through to the bottom line. Its still such a small piece that they have to spend on this. Right. Steve, in order to.

Steve Swan [00:16:15]:
Again, everything comes at a cost. So how diligent do we want to be? Whats the cost of business and whats the cost financially? Right. So we got to figure out how much are we willing to a, pay and b, how inconvenienced do we want to be by the security measures we take. However, whatever that ends up being, however we slice that, it's the incremental costs for all that are fractional compared to what the potential ramifications are. On the downside, if you do get nailed by something. Right?

Steven Bressler [00:16:44]:
Yeah, but you made a very interesting statement. From a financial perspective, the investment is small. But from an inconvenience standpoint, it's kind of like when you migrate an organization over to a new ERP. Whether you're migrating them to SAP or netsuite or whatever, they're inconvenienced. It is no longer as easy for them as it was before. So I recently implemented security changes for a biotech, and the CEO was 100% behind me from a support perspective. So what we ended up doing was we locked down the laptops so that you could not access. You could still watch a Netflix while traveling and such, but you couldn't access your personal email.

Steven Bressler [00:17:45]:
You couldn't go to websites that had malware and of course, their algorithm, how we calculate that. And we spent a tremendous amount of time convincing the organization what we were doing was appropriate, and we received ridiculous pushback from the average staff. So in one instance, I wanted to shut down the ability to RDP a remote desktop through the organization. And the organization, the people in manufacturing and research lost their minds, rightfully so, by the way, because a, some of them work remotely at times, and b, some of these processes could run for 100 hours. Now, the concern was shutting down RDP, of course, is if somebody hacks your account, you don't want them to go laterally across the enterprise doing whatever bad activities they plan to do. So we actually came up, we added a third party product so that they needed to do a separate MFA to RDP to other devices. Okay. And it was a compromise.

Steven Bressler [00:19:16]:
As an IT person, I was totally okay with that, obviously, because it solved other need and over time, people accepted it because I asked people once or later, not a big deal. When we were implementing it, there was a lot of pushback. So this comes back to an important component of what an IT leader needs to do. They need to communicate with the executive team and further down the organization. When I first started in technology, they would always refer to it and the business. That's how the tech folks would say it. Right. The business wants this or that.

Steven Bressler [00:20:04]:
I try to, when I work with the it staffs, I try to explain to them, we are the business. There is no us and them. And again, it's a cultural mind shift. Technology is there for one purpose. So I have a toy to play with. No. In order to satisfy the corporate objectives. And that's what we need to get people to understand.

Steven Bressler [00:20:32]:
And a big part of, as I said, the job of an IT leader is educating the organization on what is right to do.

Steve Swan [00:20:43]:
And that's huge. That's huge. A lot of it leaders, you know, and. But like you said, especially from a security front, you know, it's a lot of. It's about education, you know, and it's. It's about what do I do when I see something or suspect something or how can you stay out of trouble or potentially stay out of trouble? You know, I'm shocked when you said earlier that there's. There's, you know, software as a service for.

Steven Bressler [00:21:08]:
Right. Yeah.

Steve Swan [00:21:09]:
Doing it, that's just crazy.

Steven Bressler [00:21:12]:
But in biotech, there's more. It's not just the security component of. It's the quality component. And when I say quality, if you're talking outside of the IT arena, people don't understand. Yeah, yeah, I want quality. No, it. Quality needs to be baked in to every process, as does it security, because with it quality, you need to do a certain step on a certain machine that's validated already and you need to keep the right type of documentation. And what we need to do is, again, strategically, when we look at a problem as an IT professional, we need to look back and say, how do I build whatever widget I'm building with the quality and security requirements built in? I was working with an organization not too long ago where they didn't have the proper quality items into their infrastructure and they were trying to figure out ways to work around it.

Steven Bressler [00:22:30]:
So whoever did the initial design, and I don't second a guess people, but they did not have the requirements baked into the end a solution. And that caused many issues, because now you have to migrate people from a solution a to a solution a b. Which brings me back to an earlier statement. People don't like a change and people don't like a change that they cannot understand or see. So when it is working across the enterprise to resolve quality issues and security issues, nobody sees a gold ring at the end. It's just we're spending money doing a lot of work and things are going to be difficult or different work with, and they don't see that end outcome. And that, you know, again, we need to educate people well.

Steve Swan [00:23:38]:
So that kind of goes to my head, goes to when you, when you just said that with a good it group, especially a good security group, if they're all doing what they should be doing, not a lot of folks know what's going on behind the scenes, which is a good thing. Right. But then on the flip side, the leaders will say, well, why am I paying them so much if I don't know what's going on? Well, that's a means that you got some good people, so you're paying them that much so it doesn't get in your way. You're paying them that much so you don't get hacked. You're paying them that much so it is transparent to you. Right. Otherwise, if it wasn't transparent to you, maybe you're not spending up, maybe you don't have the right folks in place, maybe you're not, don't have the right processes. Right.

Steve Swan [00:24:17]:
Those kinds of things come to mind as you're saying what you just said.

Steven Bressler [00:24:20]:
Well, yeah. And what normally happens in, I'm gonna say a public company, but I've also seen it happen in private companies, is it has to go to the audit committee at least once a year and explain the state of the union. Okay. And so we have to explain what are the risks? What have we addressed? What do we see happening in the next number of months? What needs to be done immediately? So there is no company that is a secure. So we always need to keep working, and we have to be speaking to people, because the biggest threat in it are people. Now, I'll give you an example. If you use a Microsoft product, you may be noticing now, the MFA has a number that you have to match. So it's a two digit number, okay? And the reason for that is, bad actors used to flood everybody with a request for access repeatedly.

Steven Bressler [00:25:42]:
And people would ultimately assume, I must have signed in on my iPad at home and just say yes to the name fraud. MFA of fatigue. Okay, so. Well, you know the joke I like, if you create a better mousetrap, you'll get smarter mice. Okay. It's the same thing. So Microsoft needed to come back and give you a number to match it, because, as I said, people were literally just to stop all the messages saying yes. And, you know, there are tools out there for phishing and other type of thing, and like a product called a nobe four, which is pretty much the industry standard for cybersecurity education.

Steven Bressler [00:26:34]:
People need to go through those things and they're still making mistakes. They. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a company where somebody told me they just bought an Apple gift card for the CEO. A. I don't want to say that we're a little smarter. We're just more experienced than this, okay? So if I didn't live in this type of world every day, and I got a request from the boss, I may also run and jump, but you know what I'm saying? And then another company I worked for, they got hacked. And these people were fantastic. The evildoers, they sent a notice to everybody, okay? Via the us mail that they've been hacked and their emails aren't real, and they had to change their banking information immediately.

Steven Bressler [00:27:33]:
And people actually, they said, thank God I got this. A message. Okay, so, yeah, yeah. I mean.

Steve Swan [00:27:44]:
Well, it's not going to stop, right? No, no, it's not going to stop. And education, right? That's where it comes in. But, boy, that's. I can't even. Okay, that's crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. It's amazing. Well, so what about any other technologies? Anything else that you think's proliferating our industry? I mean, you hit on a lot of things there.

Steve Swan [00:28:05]:
I mean, one of them was, you know, 3d printing organs. I didn't even touch on that one. You know, there is actually a company out there right now who I'm going to be doing a piece with their CIO at some point. They, they've actually implanted a few genetically modified animal organs into folks and haven't been rejected. And they've worked, you know, so which is, I mean, that's great because it seems to me from what I've learned real briefly in researching that, that our donor supply chain, our donor system is flawed, I guess I could use that word, you know, so anyway. But, you know, but, yeah. So any other technologies you want to touch on before we move on to maybe sort of your philosophy around being a leader and what makes you different as a leader?

Steven Bressler [00:28:49]:
No, I think those are really other major items. I mean, you're aware of some of the other items that affect all the industries, this push toward flexible work and how that impacts the industry with people working remotely. So I've worked internationally for the past 30 plus years, I guess. So I've been doing hybrid work for a long time. Okay. And what comes back to that again is security. Okay? If people are then working at home, that's the big issue. But I think we covered the technology trends that are really hot right now.

Steven Bressler [00:29:34]:
I mean, there's virtual augmented a reality and such, but I don't see that widely being adopted yet in a biotech space.

Steve Swan [00:29:46]:
Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bressler [00:29:47]:
You know, you know, and robotics process automation was not in, or braced in a biotech until fairly recently as well.

Steve Swan [00:29:56]:
Right.

Steven Bressler [00:29:56]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:29:58]:
Well, then, so let's move on to, let's, let's go back to you. We started with you when did technology. Now let's come back to you real quick. You know, as a leader, right, as an IT leader, as a department leader, as a manager, anything that you would say, you know, from your times leading teams and such that that sticks out that your folks that reported to you have come back and have said, you know, that really made a difference to me or that's something that sets you apart from others. Any thoughts there? Anything there that you could point to or talk about?

Steven Bressler [00:30:26]:
Yeah, it kind of comes back to my whole philosophy. We spend, when I say we society, a lot of time working. And work should literally be fun. And I say that to people all the time and they roll their eyes because, you know, it's always high pressure. This needs to be done immediately. There's a deadline here, a problem there. But seriously, work should be fun. And that comes down from the leadership team in this case, if I'm the chief information officer or the fractional chief information officer it is my job for work to be fun.

Steven Bressler [00:31:10]:
What do I mean by that? I don't mean party hats and cake. I mean that we need to get people to work as a team, even if they're remote and, and enjoy what they're doing. And what I found is you need to keep people involved. This doesn't mean having a thousand meetings or flooding people with email. Okay? But if people are involved, they understand what the mission of the organization is, why we are doing things that don't make sense, taken in isolation. Get them involved. Explain to people when they are going to have irate customers. Upfront.

Steven Bressler [00:32:05]:
We are locking down XYz because of ABC. Expect people to be unhappy. Here's how we should address it. And it comes across as a whole philosophy. There was always that big joke of people who refused to share information. So they were indispensable. They were never indispensable. They were just unpromotable.

Steven Bressler [00:32:30]:
Because a company is an organism, it will adapt. That person leaves, there'll be some pain, but they'll have it done. So I actually do well when I'm involved in organizations and I, they have a wide scope of tasks for me to look at. I do things on the help desk. I'll spend a couple hours a week answering help desk tickets, not because they need the help, but to understand how things are done. Because the best way to improve a process is to be involved in it. And the staff never feels I'm looking over their shoulder. It's not like Steve is doing this because we're doing it wrong.

Steven Bressler [00:33:20]:
Steve is doing this because Steve wants to be smarter. A true leader does not stand in front of his team, he stands behind. It's our job as leaders to elevate people, to educate people, and again, to make it fun. And by the same token, even when I was working for, I was working for an organization and we were 100% remote. And then we purchased a company on the west coast. I'm on the east coast. I flew out a week, a month just to build other relationships. So even in a hybrid environment where people go, I can work from home every day.

Steven Bressler [00:34:13]:
You need to go build other relationships, not just with your team, but with the rest of the organization. And you need to understand what pain point is finance are going through. How come R and da dislikes it? Okay, what is it doing wrong to not understand what their objectives are? And I have to say, my strategy works. I'm still in touch with an intern I had in the eighties. Okay? So I'm still in touch. And I hear from people who worked for me 2030 years ago asking me for advice or actually, believe it or not, calling me up to thank me because the situation occurred and they learned how to handle it while working with me. Okay.

Steve Swan [00:35:17]:
That is awesome. I love that.

Steven Bressler [00:35:19]:
And, Steve, you have to remember, you're only as good as your most unhappy employee.

Steve Swan [00:35:28]:
Agreed. Agreed.

Steven Bressler [00:35:29]:
And it's not all about money. Okay? Okay. People usually don't leave a job for money. They make more money when they leave, but they normally leave a boss or a manager or an environment.

Steve Swan [00:35:47]:
I say that all the time to my kids. I say, people don't leave a company, leave it. They leave a manager or, like you said, a team or an environment or coworker.

Steven Bressler [00:35:55]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:35:56]:
You know, and as, through the years as I coached a bunch of teams, it was always, you know, a kid will come back to the team just like an employee. Right. If they're having fun and they're learning. If you keep the learning curve steep and they're having fun, they're coming back, you know, and it seems like real easy advice. It's tough sometimes, right? It's tough to do.

Steven Bressler [00:36:13]:
It doesn't cost much. But part of the problem, I guess, is a lot of managers need to take themselves less seriously. You know, they feel they're under tremendous pressure. If they're uptight, if they're concerned, it ripples down. Kind of like in a relationship, if you look miserable, what's the likelihood your spouses are going to be happy? Unless they're making you miserable on purpose? But different story.

Steve Swan [00:36:46]:
It's good. That's good. No, I get it. Totally. Absolutely. Well, that's good. All good stuff. All good stuff.

Steve Swan [00:36:53]:
So I always like to ask one final question before we sign off, and I don't know. Did you watch any of my podcasts yet?

Steven Bressler [00:36:59]:
No, I have not.

Steve Swan [00:37:00]:
All right, so, good. So this will be a surprise to you. I always ask everybody the same question at the end. I'm a big live music fan. I like music, right? So I see a bunch of concerts here and there and so on and so forth. So what I like asking folks, is favorite live band or live they've ever seen throughout any point in your life. Like, if you had to think about a band or a musician or anything, you know, I've gotten a multitude of answers.

Steven Bressler [00:37:27]:
What, what.

Steve Swan [00:37:27]:
What would that be?

Steven Bressler [00:37:29]:
Bruce Springsteen. Because he. I've seen the who. I've seen Pink Floyd. I get him. He brings the energy. He does again. He.

Steven Bressler [00:37:40]:
He ignites you and. And gets you energized.

Steve Swan [00:37:45]:
He does. He does. Well, I saw him for the first time, September, I think it was, at Metlife. It was good. It was good.

Steven Bressler [00:37:53]:
I have not seen Taylor Swift, so I can't comment on that. But I understand she's popular.

Steve Swan [00:38:00]:
Yeah, yeah. My family's seen her. I did not go. They wanted to get me a ticket, right? So they said, hey, dad, were buying tickets. I dont remember what the number was. 306. I cant remember what the number was. And im like, you know what? Dont waste it on me.

Steve Swan [00:38:12]:
You know, so on and so forth. And then the tickets started escalating to, you know, like $2,300 or something ridiculous. And I said to my girls, I said, listen, if you bought me a ticket for dollar 300, I would have been bummed out the minute you bought me the ticket because I wouldnt want to spend that much money then, then I probably would have sold the ticket. Lets say you bought it for $300. I would have sold it at 305. And then if I saw it go up to $600, I would have been twice as miserable. So it's a good thing I never got involved with the whole transaction, you know, so, yeah, so, well, anyway, I appreciate your time. Thanks for, thanks for being on with us.

Steve Swan [00:38:44]:
And, you know, if anybody needs to reach out to me or Steve, we'll have our LinkedIn links on there for anybody to reach out. All right. I appreciate your time, and thank you.

Steven Bressler [00:38:53]:
Steve and I enjoy all of our discussions, not just the one being recorded.

Steve Swan [00:38:59]:
I always enjoy speaking, hopefully many more to come. Thank you.