Why Communication Is the Most Underrated Skill in Biotech Leadership | Michael Piperno

Leadership Communication Skills | #leadershipcommunication #executivepresence #presentationskills

In this episode of Biotech Bites, host Steve Swan talks with leadership communication expert Michael Piperno about how to improve the way you communicate in the boardroom, in presentations, and in interviews. Please visit our website to get more information: https://swangroup.net/

They break down real communication coaching tips, why executive presence matters, and how to connect with your audience. You’ll learn practical advice on building confidence, listening actively, structuring your message, and handling tough conversations at work. 

This video is perfect for anyone looking to sharpen their leadership communication skills, boost their presentation skills training, and stand out in meetings or interviews with executive presence and confidence. Whether you're in life sciences, biotech, or a professional setting, these coaching insights will help you communicate with clarity and impact.

Links from this episode:

• Get to know more about Steven Swan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/swangroup 
• Get to know more about Michael Piperno: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelpiperno 
• Check out Michael’s podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-life-sciences-leadership-show/id1796246371 
• Learn more about The Comvia Group: https://www.wearecomvia.com/author/michael3420/ 

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#leadershipcommunication #presentationskills #executivepresence #communicationcoach #careerconfidence #professionalgrowth

Why Communication Is the Most Underrated Skill in Biotech Leadership | Michael Piperno

Transcript

Steve Swan [00:00:00]:
On the next episode of Biotech Bytes, join me for an insightful conversation with Michael Piperno, owner and founder of ComVi Leadership, communication and Coaching. We talk about different styles of communication and ways one can improve their abilities in the boardroom and in presentations. See you there. Welcome to Biotech Bytes, where we speak with IT leaders within Biotech. I'm your host, Steve Swan, and today we're taking a slightly different turn. We're speaking with Michael Pipnero. I hope I said that properly, Piperno owner and leader at Comvia. He's doing leadership training and communication coaching. Michael also has a couple podcasts, one of them being the Life Sciences Leadership Show. So, first and foremost, how am I going to pronounce your last name since I butchered it?

Michael Piperno [00:00:56]:
Piperno. Like Gladys Knight and the Pips. Erno. Piperno.

Steve Swan [00:00:59]:
Okay, cool. Good. Now we got it. Now most people don't get it, right, Steve?

Michael Piperno [00:01:03]:
I'm not offended. No worries at all.

Steve Swan [00:01:05]:
You know, it's funny, you know, and we all have these stories from when we were growing up about how, you know, the substitute teacher butchered our name or whatever they did. You know, I had one once that butchered the name Swan.

Michael Piperno [00:01:16]:
Wow.

Steve Swan [00:01:17]:
I said, wow. I don't know if this is somebody I want to be learning from. They said. They said swan. I said, no, it's swan. And that's a word in the English language from what I understand, you know, so.

Michael Piperno [00:01:26]:
That's too funny. Yeah, no, that's. That's a hard one to mispronounce. I've gotten paperonio pepperoni. I've got. And I hear very often, Piper, and I'm not offended by that one at all, because it's, you know, it's.

Steve Swan [00:01:37]:
It. That's what it.

Michael Piperno [00:01:38]:
That's what it could be.

Steve Swan [00:01:39]:
It's exactly what it looked like, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. All right, well, so. So I screwed it up. Totally. All right, well, thanks for letting me know. That's okay.

Steve Swan [00:01:46]:
I appreciate it. So. Well, thanks for joining us.

Michael Piperno [00:01:50]:
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Steve Swan [00:01:51]:
And real quickly, just want to remind our. Our viewers and listeners that if they enjoy what they see or hear, you don't forget to like us and subscribe to us on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. Now, Michael, the way I was, like, starting out with folks is to just give me a quick. Give our readers a quick rundown on you a minute or two on how you got started and what you're doing and what drove you to doing what you're Doing sure.

Michael Piperno [00:02:17]:
Well, my, my career path, when I tell people about it, Steve sounds like a pinball machine of all different, you know, hitting all different industries and all different types of thing. But really the theme line in my work pretty much from day one is I love to help people be better communicators. I started out trying to be an actor. It wasn't the right path for me and I kind of understood early that I was a good performer, but I was better at directing people and helping other people be their best at performance.

Steve Swan [00:02:45]:
And.

Michael Piperno [00:02:46]:
And so when I, when being an actual actor wasn't going to work for me, I actually became a teacher of speech and theater, public speaking and theater arts. This is way back in the 90s, showing people how old I am. And it was a great career, it was a lot of fun, it was a steady job, but it just wasn't enough for me. And I ended up, I had gotten a communications degree as well as a speech and theater arts degree. And don't worry everybody, I won't tell, I'm not going to tell you the whole history of my life here, but it's relevant. And I actually was able to make a pivot into marketing and branding and advertising. And I got a job in financial services. Loved it.

Michael Piperno [00:03:20]:
Person who hired me took a chance on me and I'm still grateful to her to this day for doing that. And then I had a very great and long marketing communications career. I ended up moving into a medical communications company. That's where I got my start in Life Sciences over 20 years ago. And then I got the. I wanted to start my own business and I realized that a branding and marketing agency that served life sciences clients primarily, that's how I started. It was the way to go. So I started a branding agency that I grew and sold and then stayed with for long after I sold.

Michael Piperno [00:03:54]:
It was having a great time with it and still love that industry. But I really learned as I was maturing in my leadership that I wanted to get, I wanted to take all this experience, acting, teaching and then the strategic communication and messaging and strategy. I wanted to take all of that and help people more in a one on one or maybe even a classroom setting. So all along people have been saying to me they know I taught public speaking and the, both the college and high school level people have been asking me can you help me with this presentation? Or I got this important meeting coming up and can you help me prepare for it? And I was doing that on the side and just getting so much joy from it because of that ability to really customize and help someone in the moment on what they really needed, not them having to read a book or sit through a class. So that's what really started me on the quest to. This is my second venture, business venture, to go back out on my own and try to help people one on one. And luckily for me, a lot of my life sciences, a lot of my connections were in life sciences. When I started telling my network what I was doing, they wanted me to help.

Michael Piperno [00:05:02]:
And that's how Convia Group was born. So, yeah, yeah, it's been a. It's been a great ride and I'm really having a great time. Because, Steve, I always get. I always tell people I get to help smart and brilliant and talented people be like the next level, excellent version of the amazing person they already are through soft skills and communication skills.

Steve Swan [00:05:20]:
Personally, I believe that everybody's got it in there. You just have to figure out how to pull it out. Right. You know, and a lot of times.

Michael Piperno [00:05:30]:
People don't know how to pull it out.

Steve Swan [00:05:31]:
So people.

Michael Piperno [00:05:32]:
No, they don't. And what'll happen a lot for me, you know, if I'm hired to do a workshop for life sciences, whatever, whatever industry, you know, that's pretty. They usually know, okay, we need presentation skills, or do we need better interpersonal communication, or we need better depersonalization and communication through conflict. Like, there's usually something there that's fairly tangible that they know their people need to either be upskilled or helped with. But a lot of times people who reach out to me, one on one, they're saying to me, michael, I'm being told I need to have better presence. I don't know what they mean. Like, they can't tell me exactly what they mean. And I asked for examples, and they'll give me one example.

Michael Piperno [00:06:09]:
But, like, I don't know. And very often people don't know exactly how they can be better, but they know that they need to be better, Whether it's communicating with a certain audience or motivating their team or making people feel seen and heard or whatever it is. And that's the. If they're willing to be coached, Steve, because not everybody's willing to be coached. But even if they don't know exactly where we're going, if they find me or comfortable with me and they trust me, I can help them figure out what that intangible is that they can't figure out that they need to work on. Does that make sense?

Steve Swan [00:06:45]:
It totally makes sense, you know, yeah, it's fun. I'm drawing parallels between two things for me. One is, you know, what I do get paid for, right. Is placing folks and executives. And what I try and do with people is I try, and I'm not remaking anybody. I'm not giving them a script because ultimately they have to work there with that company. What I try and help them do is understand how they're being perceived and how, you know, how they need to react to certain situations and then how to lay things out, how to map it out for folks, you know, as far, as, you know, what needs to be said. And the second thing I think about as you're talking is my kids are.

Steve Swan [00:07:26]:
My daughters are 25 and 23. I coached a lot of their teams. Right. So.

Michael Piperno [00:07:30]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:07:30]:
And I don't think it changes from the time we're this big to the time we're this big, where, you know, folks will, you know, when you coach them, just like I did say in softball, right. You coach somebody, you can't teach them really how to hit a ball. But what you can teach them, you can give them some tools. So when they're having that at bat or when they're in that interview or when they're in that presentation or conversation, you aren't there with them. You're not in a batter's box with them, but you've helped them with their swing. You've given them some tools where they. They can step out of the box. Hang on.

Steve Swan [00:08:05]:
They can think for a second. Okay, Michael. Coach. Michael taught me about these couple of tools. I can adjust my elbow. I can do this. Did it help? Yeah, it might have helped a little bit. But you know what? It really helps.

Steve Swan [00:08:15]:
It helps them. It helps. It helps them, you know, how they're saying things. And I guess it brings me then to a third thing. And I'm sorry, I'm taking your, your, Your stage here is Dale Carnegie. Dale Carnegie, which I think he's the godfather of everything you. You do. Right.

Steve Swan [00:08:29]:
He said that, you know, it's not what you say, 7% of it's your content, basically. The rest of it is your attitude and your body language, you know?

Michael Piperno [00:08:37]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:08:38]:
So if. If I'm in the batter's box, where I'm at the podium and I'm going through a presentation and I feel good about what I'm doing, and I feel like I have the tools to make the right presentation or hit that ball, I'm going to be much more confident. Is my content going to change? That's on the podium in front of me. No, but am I going to feel better about what I'm saying? Absolutely. And it's going to come across better and my audience is going to receive it more. You know, those are the things that go through my head as you're saying what you're saying. Yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:09:05]:
I mean, you just gave a great course in communication, in executive communication, Steve, to be honest with you, because, like, when I unpack all of those things that you just said. Yes, confidence is key.

Steve Swan [00:09:14]:
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:09:15]:
But so is finding your way to have presence and to lead. It's not just, I mean, yes, body language, what you said. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. Yeah. That's big. And there are traditional notions of presence that I can teach anybody. Eye contact, body language, facial expression, tone of voice, your rate, all of those types of things. But real leadership presence is, is so much deeper.

Michael Piperno [00:09:42]:
It's about your core values. It's about the strengths you already have. It's about really being honest with yourself and exploring what your blind spots are. It's about thinking about the audience and reading the room in real time and not just imparting what you have to say, but saying in a way that's right for them in that moment. A lot of times we don't think about the specific audience, and I see this a lot with life sciences folks and biotechs folks. It's. They, they know their technology, they know their therapy or their product, whatever it is. And they're, they, they're so passionate about it, and they are passionate about the science, and yes, they're passionate about the patients.

Michael Piperno [00:10:22]:
But very often they walk into a room and they throw a tsunami of science and data at an audience that doesn't need all that. They need a little bit more of the story, or maybe if it's an investor pitch, they need the, you know, the executive summary and the bottom line of the opportunity. And again, it's not like these people are naive to that, but they're very often just trained to give all the data and then get to the conclusion. Well, sometimes you got to go in and give them the top line first, like, this is why it matters, and then I'm going to supplement it with the data. So there are so many things, and when I walk into a room, especially if it's a group facilitation, especially if I can see there are some naysayers in the room who don't think they need to be there and don't think they need a presentation skills or A presence. Yeah, I've seen, I've gotten that. What I say to them is like, look, I'm probably not going to tell you anything today that's 100% novel or new that you haven't heard before. But you tell me, by the end, I think I'm going to come in here and make these things matter to you and give you the tools, like you said as a coach, to be able to use these principles to be even more effective to.

Michael Piperno [00:11:30]:
With the people you love and lead arms. Because I'm confident that's going to happen.

Steve Swan [00:11:34]:
ARMS are coming down at that point. This.

Michael Piperno [00:11:37]:
Sometimes. Most of the time. Most of the time. But you know what, Steve? You know, and I don't mean to sound. I'm very passionate about my work and I do really believe that. Well, and I've been told with the testimonials, you know, there are people that I've really helped, and I love that. But I'm pretty confident that even if you've been through a presentation skills workshop before or a presence workshop, that I'm going to be able to connect this for you so that you can use it for you.

Steve Swan [00:12:04]:
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:12:05]:
You know, and that often opens people up a little bit more than feeling like, you know, sometimes I'm asking people to sit through a full day or two days of a workshop. That's a lot of time for a busy executive.

Steve Swan [00:12:14]:
Right.

Michael Piperno [00:12:15]:
And it's my job to make every moment of that experience worth it for them. And I work really hard to try to do that. Yeah.

Steve Swan [00:12:22]:
No, and one of the things you just kind of hit on that, that when, when I'm getting somebody ready for an interview, the thing that I try and instill upon them is help them envision you in the role they're looking to fill. So first at the beginning, understand what you're solving for. I asked them, you know, asked. You're, you're, you're only talking to people that are stakeholders in the role. If you're not, if you wouldn't be talking to them otherwise, nobody's wasting anybody's time here. Right. So. Right.

Steve Swan [00:12:46]:
They have something to do with the role in one way, shape or form. And they're looking at you as to how you're going to make their day 15, 20 minutes shorter. You got to figure out what that is. So right up front, ask them goals and priorities, you know, now you understand what they're looking for. Then for the rest of the conversation, help them envision you in that role. Like you just said, don't be so engrossed in your, in your, your work that you're using all the brand names of everything that's in your lab or all the brand project names, Project Everest. And that's not going to mean anything to them. Talk, talk about what it was, maybe some of the things that you did that they can relate to and those kinds of things.

Steve Swan [00:13:19]:
Because otherwise, like you said, you're going to lose your audience. They're just going to be like, I don't know why I'm even listening to this. It doesn't make any sense to me, you know, so.

Michael Piperno [00:13:27]:
And use the power of curiosity and questioning. You know, ask them to tell you what they're looking to hear, because very often they will. I see this when I coach people on Q and A question answer sessions. A lot. Like, they'll just take the question, even if it's a confusing one, and they won't help the question or ask a better question. Well, I always say to people, do you always ask the perfect question when you volunteer information? No, we often don't. So clarify with them. Try to get them to help you understand what's really at the root of the question, the central concern.

Michael Piperno [00:14:00]:
There's a lot of different ways you can do that, but when you can make that a collegial dialogue where you're helping the person tell you what they need to hear, it just makes it so much easier to have an open and transparent dialogue. I even tell people that with networking events like, don't just go up to someone and start talking about you. Learn more about them first. Because if you can get them talking first, then you can hear the things. And I'm not saying you were going to necessarily be persuasive or salesy in the moment, but then you can tailor what you have to say with words that actually will matter with them based.

Steve Swan [00:14:36]:
On what you heard in an interview situation. I'm proof. I can say this. I could probably show you numbers if I thought about it long enough. If you get the person interviewing you speaking, I can't tell you how many times people come out of an interview and they say, well, you know, Steve, they didn't really give me a chance to speak. They spoke 80, 90% of the time. I don't know how that went. My phone's ringing three minutes later and they're saying, we gotta hire that guy, we gotta hire that girl.

Steve Swan [00:15:05]:
Because that person let you know that inter. The person doing the interviewing got to talk about themselves, right? And that person was receptive and listened and got them talking about Themselves. I don't know, man. It seems to work, you know, to your point, get them. Get them, you know, be curious, understand who they are, understand what they're looking for, understand what they're saying. Think about, you know. Well, one of the big things I try and instill in folks, one of the tools I give them before they go in the batter's box, which is an interview in my case, is, you know, use your work skills, because my folks are mainly IT folks and they have to solve problems. And when they go in to solve a problem, they got to know what they're solving.

Steve Swan [00:15:43]:
Otherwise you're shooting in the dark. So they're all pretty skilled at. And if they're not, they're probably not decent IT people. So. And I'm not hopefully representing less than decent IT people. So they usually go into the room and they'll question their audience, their users, as to what am I solving for, what's my. What's my destination? I'm putting the roadmap together, but I need the destination, you know, and you can do that in an interview. And the light bulb goes on and I can hear him say, I can do that.

Steve Swan [00:16:10]:
Yeah, you can do that. That's what you're supposed to do. And it also shows them you're a good communicator and you're a good IT person and you're good at. At understanding your audience, you know?

Michael Piperno [00:16:20]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:16:21]:
It's just. It's foreign. It's foreign.

Michael Piperno [00:16:23]:
Yeah, well, and you brought up one of my magic words of powerful communication. It's listening. So when you show up and you're curious like that, and you. And they. And they start telling you what the problems that they need to solve for the candidates, I'm sure, who truly listen and listen between the lines, not just what the technology issue or the resource issue or the financial issue is, but the pain point, what it's really doing, how that feels like when you listen for that, and then you can help that person understand how you can alleviate that or what preliminary ideas you might have for how you would approach it. That's a gift for them because they felt, they feel heard, and we all want to feel heard. One of the things I talk say to people in my workshops is when I do a listening module is think about a time when you weren't listened to. Just think about one right now.

Michael Piperno [00:17:21]:
I'm not going to ask you to share it, Steve, but think about a time, you know, at work, at home, doctor's office, lying in the grill, wherever it is, and how did that make you feel?

Steve Swan [00:17:30]:
You're ready to blow up. You're like, okay, you're not hearing me, right? Yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:17:34]:
You're not hearing me. Nobody. When I asked that question, I have never heard in 20 years anything positive.

Steve Swan [00:17:42]:
Right.

Michael Piperno [00:17:43]:
So when you make someone feel unheard or that you didn't listen, or you start preloading the answer before they're done finishing and then you actually don't answer their question, they don't like how that feels.

Steve Swan [00:17:56]:
Right, Right.

Michael Piperno [00:17:58]:
And a lot of leadership is. You talked about perceptions. A lot of leadership is how you make people feel. So listening, I think is one of the most powerful. I think it's a superpower that's grossly underutilized in our business world. And people who make a habit of doing, of getting better at that do better in interviews, but they also inspire more high performing teams. People who feel seen and heard stay longer. There's just a huge ripple effect from that one skill that everyone has in their toolbox that we don't utilize to the power that we should.

Steve Swan [00:18:34]:
I was just telling you before we started about somebody I spoke on the phone with last night. She. I placed her out of one firm into another and she's since gone on and been the head of IT at a few other biotechs. Talk about hearing your audience. She has a group that follows her. Right. They just go with her. When she works with me, we'll spend hours on the phone building a team of three or five.

Steve Swan [00:19:00]:
Why? Because everybody's got skills, everybody's got an ability. She wants to think about the next step or the step after that for that person. They may not even know it yet, but she's already saying, okay, I need, I want my people to stay. I want to listen to my people. I want to give them growth, I want to give them what lots of people need, you know, those kinds of things. I have no other leaders that really go through all that with me. You know, now maybe they're thinking about it, but they don't sit. I mean, we'll talk after hours, for, for hours on end about these things.

Steve Swan [00:19:32]:
Right. It's clear to me that what she does is she makes if even if she's not listening, she's making them feel heard and they absolutely, positively love that and her team. You know, I'll go back to my coaching ability, my coaching example. When I was on the field with the girls and I was coaching, say a softball team, if we were cohesive and I was hearing them and they were hearing me and we all had each Other's backs. I always said to any other coach, they were like, how'd you.

Michael Piperno [00:20:00]:
You.

Steve Swan [00:20:00]:
You literally drafted the worst team and you just won everything. Well, we have. We have a 10th player on the field. What's that? I said, we're all one unit. So it's like having an extra player on the field. You know, these kids have each other's backs. Nobody's better than the other. Yeah, I got a couple superstars and this and that and the other thing, but there's no attitudes.

Steve Swan [00:20:18]:
Nobody's better than the other. And everybody has each other's back. Someone makes a mistake, everybody rallies around him. Next, let's go. Right. So, yeah, it's the same thing in a workplace, you know, and it doesn't change again from when we're this big to when we're this big. Right, right. We all have the same.

Steve Swan [00:20:33]:
Same needs and wants at the core.

Michael Piperno [00:20:34]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:20:35]:
You know?

Michael Piperno [00:20:35]:
Yeah.

Steve Swan [00:20:36]:
Right. And I had a conversation last week with a guy. He's pretty junior. He's probably mid 20s, maybe high 20s. And we were talking about AI, right? And I'm about to dive in a little bit to AI here. And he said to me, he said. He said, you know, everybody's telling me AI is coming after my job. He said, steve, I gotta tell you, I know how AI works.

Steve Swan [00:20:57]:
Everybody knows how AI works. And how AI works is you have to know exactly what you want and ask it what you're looking for, and it'll give you that answer back, hopefully, if you tweak it enough and this and that. He goes, right, you know, and I know this firsthand from my job. They never really know what they want. You have to tweak that and you have to ask all the right questions and to get to that point. And then they're like, oh, yeah, maybe that is what I'm really looking for. So his point was, if humans, as humans, we can't. It takes us so long to get to what we really want, How's AI going to know what to solve for if we're not really giving them the right ask, you know?

Michael Piperno [00:21:29]:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Steve Swan [00:21:31]:
I don't know.

Michael Piperno [00:21:32]:
Listen, I mean, AI people have said about my work, oh, I. You know, people could go on and get coaching with AI and, oh, sure, you can get. You can get some practice questions and sure, maybe you're going to get some good advice. And that's all great. And I love. Listen, I love AI for ideation, for when I develop workshops, and I want some new Icebreakers or I want some new Activities and I need to jog my memory or, you know, and get inspired. Look, there's a lot of great resource for it, but, but what gives me confidence in my work with AI is that AI can't go into a room and create a safe space for you to feel that you can explore your leadership presence and your skills. It can't do that.

Michael Piperno [00:22:12]:
So only a human can do that right now. We'll see what happens in the future. But you know, I think I'm pretty future proofed for that, at least for the short term.

Steve Swan [00:22:20]:
I think we both. So, yeah, yeah. I had a CIO on yesterday from a biotech in Boston and he started talking about, without even knowing it really, he started talking about when we define what we're going to do, you know, we can use AI and when we go maybe to our implementation or measurement, we can use AI. But he talks about the project management in the middle, how things fit together, the architecture, the business architecture, understanding what business wants, how the systems are truly going to mesh, you know, and that, and I said to him, I said, I call that from my recruiting perspective and I write about it all the time. The work in the middle. The work in the middle can't get done by AI. AI in my business can identify candidates. It can also help generate an offer.

Steve Swan [00:22:59]:
All the work in the middle, what do they want? What do they need? What does the client want? What does the client need? What are the, you know, all these things, the different personalities that need to match. It's not doing the work in the middle. And if we're leaning on AI to do all that, that's, that's, that's going to be some tough sledding for a long time.

Michael Piperno [00:23:13]:
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Swan [00:23:14]:
And you and I are talking about people, businesses. There's a lot of art. There's not a ton of science. Right.

Michael Piperno [00:23:20]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, and a lot of what people come to me for is to explore a blind spot that they, they know something's wrong, but they don't. Like I said before, they don't know, they don't know what it is. And if they're not asking AI the right questions, they're not going to get a, a relevant answer. I almost said diagnosis, but that's not the right word, but you know what I mean, like their, their problem isn't going to be addressed because very often with, very often with leaders, it's something that you need to really explore and get to the root of. I've got assessments that help uncover those blind spots and everything. For example, I'll just give you an example. 1.

Michael Piperno [00:23:56]:
So, you know, I probably show up as a pretty self confident guy and I, and I am when I'm facilitating and coaching and training and you know, part of that's my acting training, but that is me. I mean, I, I, I, I, I need to be confident for my, you know, for the people I want to help. But I'm actually kind of an introvert, so I'm normally kind of a quiet guy, but. And I've an assessment after assessment shows this. But when I turn my self confidence on Steve, I can be too self confident for some people. I'm doing it to be helpful because I think it's, it's a strength that works for me. But there are times in the moment where people see me as arrogant and that hurts my heart. I hate that I don't ever want to be seen as arrogant.

Michael Piperno [00:24:39]:
But that was until I was ready in my leadership journey to explore that and admit to it. I wasn't able to address it.

Steve Swan [00:24:46]:
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:24:47]:
And now I can manage those perceptions by, see like if they were happening with me and you right now, I know how, I know I could read your, I could read your body language or read your face and I'd be like, ding, ding. Michael, stop. Self confident, pullback, pullback. And I can save myself and save the conversation.

Steve Swan [00:25:04]:
Right, right, right.

Michael Piperno [00:25:05]:
But I never had that, that, that wasn't, that, that was a complete blind spot for me in my leadership journey for years.

Steve Swan [00:25:11]:
And that's part of doing this for years. Right? It's part of riding the bike for so long, you know, when it's lean a little bit right and a little bit left and that's that, that, that comes into my vernacular, my conversation, when people ask me in my business with AI, like, you know, AI is not riding the bike. AI's got no art. It's all science. And if you try and make a science out of people versus people business, we're in for a long road. We. You can't do it. It's just, yeah, it's gonna, yeah, it's gonna hurt a lot of people, you know, or, or, or, or lead to a lot of mishires, which I'm seeing right now, you know, because now, now AI's combating AI, right? You know, they're writing their job descriptions with AI, they're writing their resumes with AI.

Steve Swan [00:25:49]:
Managers are calling me going, nobody fits anything. I just had 15 of the prettiest resumes I've ever seen. I interviewed 11 of them. None of them could substantiate anything. Well, that's because they wrote the resume to get by that AI bot to do.

Michael Piperno [00:26:01]:
Right, right. Well, Stephen, I mean, I don't know your industry as intimately as you do, but I remember hiring when I had my agency. You know, what was on paper or what made it through screening wasn't all. Usually what gave them, made me hire them. It was, it was the culture fit, it was the personality fit, it was the potential. It was like you talked about that leader that you'd like to talk to on the phone and it sounds like she just has this vision for where she wants everybody to be. And that's one of the things I loved when I found someone who fit that vision and yeah, maybe needed some training or coaching on this or maybe wasn't quite ready for that. But I'll be honest with you.

Michael Piperno [00:26:38]:
I told you about my first career change from teaching to marketing. That person took that trip, that risk on me because of the conversations we had in person, not because of what was on my resume, not because of, maybe because of the way I answered questions in the interview. But it was a connection and it was a human to human connection of someone who I guess had potential at the time, but someone else who was in that position of hiring, who saw the vision of how I could fit and was willing to teach.

Steve Swan [00:27:13]:
You found your godfather.

Michael Piperno [00:27:15]:
Oh my goodness.

Steve Swan [00:27:16]:
If I did find a godfather and I'm telling my 25 year old that right now and she's in investment banking, I said, you find that person? It sounds like she did. You're off to the races, you know, they're going to coach you, they're going to help you if they see you and they have a vision for you with you and it's, it's phenomenal. I mean I had a few, few life godfathers kind of thing, you know. Yeah, not, not, not professionally, but either way it's, it's massively, massively helpful.

Michael Piperno [00:27:44]:
It totally helpful. And that's how to be honest with you, that's how I got the confidence to start what I've started with come via group because I was, I had a client and two, two, two of the people at my client were communication coaches and they kept encouraging me, they kept saying, you'd be a great coach, you'd be a great coach. And I was like, well, what does it mean? And they, you know, they, they mentored me in, in what it was number one and gave me the confidence that I could do it at the level that I wanted to do it. So Again, it was someone who knew enough about me, but also believed in my potential, who gave me that kick to say, you can make this work.

Steve Swan [00:28:24]:
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And again, somebody that. That unconditionally, A, pushes you, but B, believes in you. Yeah, there's a lot there, you know, I mean, I had coaches like that in high school and stuff, and I'm like, I could pitch in the major leagues here. You know what I mean? It was like, right. You go out on the mound and nobody's. Nobody's touching you.

Steve Swan [00:28:43]:
Nobody's. Yeah, it's amazing. It's crazy. Same thing in life, you know?

Michael Piperno [00:28:47]:
Same thing in life. But, Steve, think about that for. You know, I know you place a lot of people and you work really hard to get the right person in the right role. And. And one of the things that I tell leaders all the time is, you know, when you're managing people, you're not just a manager. Sometimes you have to be a coach. And like you just said to me, you know, those people believed in you, and not only did they push you, but they believed in you, you know, as you as a leader. Look for those opportunities to show someone that you believe in them and that their work matters and that the significance of what I.

Michael Piperno [00:29:23]:
One of the. One of the best things I love to remind managers about is look for the wonderful. Look for the good stuff your people are doing and think, and just look for the opportunities to tell that person, yeah, I saw what you did, and here's what the impact of that is going to be or was. It's better than just a thank you. It's like, that was awesome. Here's the impact, and here's what it means, because that makes people not only feel appreciated, but. But that they matter.

Steve Swan [00:29:55]:
That they matter and they understand what you're doing, what's going on. Right. You know?

Michael Piperno [00:29:59]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:29:59]:
I had one. I had one CIO that I placed in the past. He was talking about the previous CIO that he had taken over from. I'll never forget this. And he said, you know, because the person. The previous CIO was in meetings with them and things like that. And I asked him, what do you think the biggest difference is? Because they love this second guy, the first guy. They're like, this guy's got to go.

Steve Swan [00:30:20]:
He's too hot head, and all this other stuff. But I said, besides all that, what do you think the biggest difference in your styles were? He. He basically just said what you said. He said he would focus on the 5% somebody did wrong I'm going to focus on the 95%. They did. Right. You know.

Michael Piperno [00:30:39]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:30:40]:
And I'm not going to do it. He would. He would focus on the 5% in front of a crowd, in front of. In a meeting. Bad. Right. And it was at an elevated voice, and it was at a. Probably a screaming voice.

Steve Swan [00:30:50]:
You know, he said, you know, he would do it quietly behind closed doors, just with that person. Tell them how awesome they are. Tell them what they did. That was. Right. You know. Right. You know, that kind of stuff.

Steve Swan [00:30:59]:
You know. So like you just said, you don't write them down, Build them up. Right.

Michael Piperno [00:31:03]:
No, that's the difference between criticism and supportive feedback.

Steve Swan [00:31:06]:
Yeah. You know, Psych 101. Right?

Michael Piperno [00:31:09]:
Yep. Yeah. Right.

Steve Swan [00:31:10]:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So now, I had a thought when I. When I was thinking about, you know, having you on today, one of the things that there must. So one of the things I was thinking about is the most common theme, you see, because I wouldn't know what that is. So what I mean is, you know, is there one thing that you say, you repeat 70 or 80% of the people. Is there one trait or. We already hit it.

Steve Swan [00:31:34]:
Oh, you're laughing. So you kind of got this already in your head. You know what I'm asking, though, right? Is there. Oh, yeah. One thing that most of us need to work on, like eye contact, body language. I don't know any. What would you say that the one. The biggest thing is?

Michael Piperno [00:31:50]:
Oh, the biggest thing, Steve, like a list is running through my mind. So the biggest. Okay, so the biggest thing I see, that's an easy real. It's an easy question because I have so many options, so many answers for you. But I'm trying to give you the biggest. I think the one I repeat the most is you gotta stop putting everything you're gonna say on your slides. Slides are visual aids.

Steve Swan [00:32:12]:
Yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:32:12]:
They're not documents to be consumed when you're not there. Slides are be. Are there to supplement what's coming out of your mouth? Because, Steve, if I put up a slide with lots and lots and lots of stuff on it, what are you gonna do? You're gonna read it. And when you're reading. When you read, can you listen? No. So when you're reading, you're drawing the conclusions that you want to draw from reading the words or charts or diagrams or tables, and you're not hearing the message I want you to hear. Okay. So I get challenged by my corporate clients all the time.

Michael Piperno [00:32:49]:
Well, it has to be. I have to send it as a Pre read, so everything has to be on it. I'm like, fine, send a pre read, but then have a different set for your slides. Then I get challenged. It can't be different. That'll be confusing. Fine. Then let's talk about how we can chunk out your slides with animations and builds so they're only seeing what they need to see as it's coming out of your mouth, because otherwise you've lost them.

Steve Swan [00:33:10]:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 100%.

Michael Piperno [00:33:13]:
So that, that's a big, you know, if you have full sentences on your slides or you're making more than one point on a slide and you're not guiding them through it with color or builds or you're losing them.

Steve Swan [00:33:24]:
I learned that when I was right out of college. I went to Bloomberg, and back then there was barely anybody there. I think I was 250th employee or something. But when I was there, I. I eventually worked my way into an account management role, which meant that when new terminals were going, and they were going like crazy back in the early 90s, I'd be going into different folks. I visited the Bass brothers down in Texas. I mean, I could go on and on with a long list, but I'd show them about the terminals and what's going on. And the instruction was basically what you just said.

Steve Swan [00:33:57]:
Don't show them every little crevice and every little thing on the screen. Tell a story about the screen, because they've never seen this much a little bit.

Michael Piperno [00:34:04]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:34:04]:
But take them through several screens to show them how that, that workflow can work for their day. And don't get into the minutiae of it unless somebody says, hey, what does this particular screen say? You can point out the little things on it, but away from that again, use it as a visual aid. Don't get stuck to it. It's not your safety blanket. You know, don't.

Michael Piperno [00:34:23]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:34:23]:
Don't suck your thumb and point at every little thing, because that's. That doesn't come across well, you know, so I learned that early on. Yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:34:30]:
Yeah. Good, good. A lot of people. A lot of people who are very advanced in their careers who haven't learned that lesson yet, Steve. So that's why they need me. They do, you know, because, listen, if all your words are on the slide, not only is it a document, but for you, it's a teleprompter. And nobody likes to be read to in meetings.

Steve Swan [00:34:44]:
No.

Michael Piperno [00:34:45]:
So, yeah. So, you know, you. You really want to be careful of that, you know, and the second one that was a close second. That I repeat all the time is just watch how you're showing up in interactions. We're in an era right now where we're on camera a lot, you know, in these hybrid and remote work environments. Watch how you're showing up. You know, are you showing up with the right body language and facial expression, you know, the traditional notions of presence with, you know, always making eye contact? Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's something to say. I have a lazy eye.

Michael Piperno [00:35:20]:
I can't make the best eye contact. I have to do presence my own way. And that's what I tell people. If you're not the best gesturer or you're not the best with eye contact, it's okay. You're going to find your way to show people that you're showing up. That could be through your body language, that could be through expert active listening. But when you are, when you want to show up for someone and be present, eliminate the distractions. Eliminate the cell phone that's going to go shut out your email.

Michael Piperno [00:35:49]:
We all hear that on Zoom and Teams when it's dinging and then we see your eyes dart over to the other screen that shows. Sends a very clear message, I'm not here, I'm there. And then what does that say? I'm not listening. And back to. We all know how that feels. So really in person especially. And then, but absolutely online, eliminate the distractions you can control and start to flex that listening muscle of staying tuned in and hearing someone out before you start formulating your response, because that way they will be fully heard and you can respond in the most appropriate manner.

Steve Swan [00:36:29]:
That goes back to what we talked about earlier. Like, when I get somebody ready for an interview, I want them to be, you know, ready for the interview, right. I want them to understand how they're being perceived and what they are saying and, and, and the questions to ask and things like that. Basically, be on your A game, right, and understand what your A game looks like versus your B and your C and your D game. Right. I had one leader, a cio, say to me recently, he had somebody come in the interview for a VP role. He said, you know, he sounded, he seemed like he was coached. I said, well, I think you want him on his A game.

Steve Swan [00:37:01]:
You don't want to see him on his BRC game. Wouldn't you want to see what his best looks like? You know, and then he talked about some of the terminology that the guy was using and so on and so forth. And I said, and after I listened to it for a minute, then he said, but I always, when I feel like I'm hearing that, I always try and substantiate what they're saying. Like I asked, I drilled down on it and he had some really good answers, so those couldn't have been coached. And then I said to the guy, I said, not for nothing, but the two of you started your careers at the same large corporation. You might have learned some of the same terminologies, I don't know.

Michael Piperno [00:37:30]:
Yeah, right.

Steve Swan [00:37:32]:
But anyway, yeah, I, I just think that, you know, again, being on your aame when you're going into that presentation, that interview is. Is paramount. Right. And. And you know.

Michael Piperno [00:37:40]:
Right.

Steve Swan [00:37:40]:
You look at, Think of, think, you know, I, I love going to see live music. Right. Th. Those singers aren't out there. Their actions and they. How many eons have they spent in front of a mirror to see how they look and how they're being right? And their voice and their inflection, everything, all that's choreographed, whether from when they were five or a producer backstage, whatever it is. Right. They've got to be on their A game too, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Swan [00:38:03]:
Because you're paying a lot of money to see them.

Michael Piperno [00:38:04]:
Right? Yeah, but. And with presentations and interviewing and performance like that, you know. Yes. You want to be rehearsed, you want to be practice. I always tell people, don't over prepare so much that you're stiff and that you're relying on the script too much. I mean, you need to, you need to be prepared and bring your A game. But you also need to. And this is where presence can get fuzzy for people.

Michael Piperno [00:38:26]:
And the word authenticity that's thrown around, you want to be you still. And some people will come to me and be like, well, you know, I'm told I need presence and I want to be able to do this. And I'm. But it doesn't feel right. And I'm like, okay, well, we're going to find a way to get you there that feels good for you because it's there, like you said, at the top of the show. It's a lot of times it's in them. They just don't know how to access it. And they're thinking they have to do it in the way that they've seen modeled by others, which doesn't feel genuine to them.

Michael Piperno [00:38:57]:
Well, I'm here to tell everybody. And you probably see this when you prep people for interviews, it's like, you got to get to what feels good. To you. Otherwise you're not going to be coming off as you.

Steve Swan [00:39:06]:
So again, I'm going to use the music analogy for that. Right. So we. Art versus science, you know, we're all very, very, very different beings. So to your point, our, our presence and how we come across with comps is going to be totally different than yours. Okay. Right. I'm going to draw an analogy to a guitar.

Steve Swan [00:39:24]:
A guitar has a finite number of notes on it. It has a neck that's this long. I don't even know how many notes or whatever they call them on those things. I mean, I see a lot of shows, so there's a very limited amount of, of noises you can make. Right. But you can pick out a particular guitar player a mile away because of how they show up, of how they, how they manipulate that neck and those strings. And if they're doing that with their fingers, with a neck this long, gosh, the possibilities are endless for a human, for a person.

Michael Piperno [00:39:52]:
I love that analogy. I'm gonna steal that. Steve.

Steve Swan [00:39:54]:
Yeah, that's whatever you want, right? I mean, I mean that. That's. Again, I. My brain always goes to the simplest analogy. I can. And that. The music does that a lot. Sports do that a lot for me.

Steve Swan [00:40:07]:
You know, I can draw parallels with that with, with folks and spend a lot of time listening to Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett. Charlie especially, he drills things down to just the simplest things. And, and I've always found that to be useful. You know, now I mentioned. And they're the ones that introduced me to the concept. I didn't know who really Dale Carnegie was. What do you. Again, I'm.

Steve Swan [00:40:29]:
Now I'm totally digressing. Dale Carnegie. Do you. Do you ever. I don't know, is that something you recommend people think about? People do. Um. I don't even know if they even do Dale Carnegie classes anymore. I bet maybe they don't.

Steve Swan [00:40:41]:
That's old stuff.

Michael Piperno [00:40:42]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's really very personal, that kind of choice. There are programs like that out there. There's. I mean, people have heard of Toastmasters, there's. And there are a lot of organizations out there that do what I do and have their own methodology and their own ways of doing that. I personally feel like especially busy executives get more out of a. More personalized like, let's talk about what you need rather than put you through a program that already exists.

Michael Piperno [00:41:16]:
That may be. Now listen, I facilitate programs that already exist, but I, I almost never. That program will almost never be exactly the same. And that's the difference between training and truly facilitating and coaching. You know, I get told a lot of times by people, you remember you talked about the arms crossed people that come into a two day workshop and they're like, I don't think I need this. Well, very often it's because they've only experienced training where it's material. The, the trainer is going through the material. It's about getting through it.

Michael Piperno [00:41:47]:
And sometimes that happens. Okay, sometimes that's what training is. That's what a lot of self paced training is online. And listen, there's a place for that and there, I'm not bashing it at all. That's not what I do. What I do is I take the, the, the, the training that I'm hearing that these people need and then I make it really for them. And that's, I'm not saying Dale Carnegie doesn't do that or other ones don't do that. But there is a, you know, it's, there is there, there's all different types.

Michael Piperno [00:42:19]:
There's a spectrum like anything else. And it really depends on what that team member or what that full team really needs. I love getting to the root of it and customizing it super for them so that they feel like, okay, that was good communication training, but that was really relevant and I can walk out of here today and start being better in one or two ways.

Steve Swan [00:42:37]:
Sure. And you can't customize it to the minute level if you're reading Dale Carnegie because Dale Carnegie was born in 1888 or whatever. So he's clearly no longer with us. But you know, and if he is, God bless him. But you know, you can't customize that. Like you can customize what you're doing too.

Michael Piperno [00:42:54]:
You know what, Steve, maybe you can. Maybe there are facilitators out there that do that. I just personally, the materials that I've created are from a lot of it is from my days as a traditional, more public speaking teacher way back almost. Oh my God. Well, not almost 30 years ago. Okay. Like that was my foundational training of what all the best practices are and the structuring, speeches and messaging and storytelling and all of that. And that's all great stuff.

Michael Piperno [00:43:23]:
But what I do is now, you know, I had, now have 25 years of business experience. Some of that as a senior executive, some of that as a president and CIO CEO. So. And I have C suite people. Like I've seen so much that I'm able to, I feel like I'm able to take that very. That content and make it very, very real world. Applicable.

Steve Swan [00:43:46]:
Cool. That's good. That's good. Good stuff. Thank you. Thank you. This was great. Now, is there anything more you'd like to.

Steve Swan [00:43:54]:
Because I have one final question. If you've watched my podcast, you already know what my final question is, but have you. Do you know what my final question.

Michael Piperno [00:44:01]:
I don't know what your last question is. I'm sorry.

Steve Swan [00:44:03]:
This is good. This is good. But anything more you want to hit on before. Before we go to that?

Michael Piperno [00:44:09]:
No, I'm good. I'm good.

Steve Swan [00:44:11]:
You're sitting. I got you sitting on the edge of your seat. I can read body.

Michael Piperno [00:44:13]:
Yeah, I'm ready. I don't know what's coming.

Steve Swan [00:44:15]:
Yeah. So I've already established that I like music. We go and see a lot of music, my wife and I. So my question to everybody, to kind of shed a little personal light on them, is favorite live band or favorite concert or favorite show of that sort. If you've been to one, you know, a lot of folks have seen.

Michael Piperno [00:44:32]:
Oh, my goodness.

Steve Swan [00:44:33]:
Things like that, would you say there's one. I've gotten answers from here to there. You know, I've gotten opera. I've gotten Rush. I've gotten Springsteen. I've gotten the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I've gotten everything. I've gotten everything.

Steve Swan [00:44:46]:
Anything.

Michael Piperno [00:44:46]:
I've seen a lot. I mean, I'm a theater nerd. I'm a musician. So, yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot. I think my favorite. God, it goes back to being a teenager. I saw the Amnesty. I saw the Amnesty International concert at JFK Stadium in Philadelphia.

Steve Swan [00:45:02]:
What year was that? I could look it up.

Michael Piperno [00:45:05]:
90. 90, maybe.

Steve Swan [00:45:08]:
Okay. Yeah. Cause they tore that down in 92, so that makes sense. Yeah.

Michael Piperno [00:45:11]:
Yeah. So. And it was Tracy Chapman, I think. Peter Gabriel, definitely. Bruce Springsteen at the end of the night. Joan Baez. Oh, cool. It was like one of those amazing, amazing.

Michael Piperno [00:45:27]:
I mean, we were there from like, noon until like, 2am it was that kind of amazing experience.

Steve Swan [00:45:33]:
That's fun.

Michael Piperno [00:45:34]:
So that's the one that comes to mind is like, wow, that was like a blow me away experience. And then I also saw David Bowie, which was one of. Which was just an incredible experience.

Steve Swan [00:45:42]:
Where'd you see him? I've seen him. I saw him three times.

Michael Piperno [00:45:44]:
Remember the Spectrum?

Steve Swan [00:45:45]:
Yeah, I saw him there.

Michael Piperno [00:45:46]:
Yeah. I saw the. What was it called? Dark, I think.

Steve Swan [00:45:49]:
Serious moonlight series. Moonlight. 93.

Michael Piperno [00:45:51]:
No, something.

Steve Swan [00:45:53]:
I had an 83. I'm sorry, not 93.

Michael Piperno [00:45:55]:
I had the T shirt. To it. Oh, I can see it. But I can't remember the name of the album that he toured with.

Steve Swan [00:46:01]:
Last Spider Tour.

Michael Piperno [00:46:01]:
That was a pretty incredible. That's it. Glass Fighter.

Steve Swan [00:46:04]:
That's called the Glass Fighter Tour in Giant Stadium. Whatever it was called back then. I think it was Giant Stadium.

Michael Piperno [00:46:10]:
Yeah. Well, I would. That I was at the Spectrum. And then the other cool show I saw at the Spectrum that I'll always remember was I saw Frank Sinatra, Liza Minnelli And Sammy Davis Jr. Really? Yeah.

Steve Swan [00:46:20]:
Wow.

Michael Piperno [00:46:21]:
That was a.

Steve Swan [00:46:22]:
Would you. That.

Michael Piperno [00:46:25]:
I was young, my dad had tick. Had extra tickets, and he took me and my brother last minute. Oh, God. Had to be in the late 80s, right?

Steve Swan [00:46:32]:
Right. Yeah. At least.

Michael Piperno [00:46:34]:
I know I'm bringing up old stuff here, but I like nostalgia.

Steve Swan [00:46:36]:
I was down at JFK, saw a show there in 89. And then I also shot live. Saw live 8 in 85.

Michael Piperno [00:46:44]:
Oh, you did?

Steve Swan [00:46:45]:
That was crazy. I was in. I was in 11th grade, and it's. You know, it was just nuts. It was.

Michael Piperno [00:46:49]:
Yeah.

Steve Swan [00:46:49]:
Face value was 35 for a ticket. We thought we were getting beat up paying 85.

Michael Piperno [00:46:54]:
I know, I know.

Steve Swan [00:46:55]:
I mean, nowadays, 85 bucks, you're not even getting into, you know, the local. The local band at the bar, you know. I know.

Michael Piperno [00:47:01]:
Well, that's like theater tickets. I remember I went to see one of my first musicals on Broadway, and I was looked at, the prices, and I couldn't believe my dad paid 65 for us to see that show. And now it's a couple hundred.

Steve Swan [00:47:12]:
Isn't that crazy? It's just keep crazy. People are paying it, so I guess they may as well charge it, right? So.

Michael Piperno [00:47:18]:
Yep.

Steve Swan [00:47:18]:
Yeah. Well, Michael Piperno.

Michael Piperno [00:47:23]:
There you go.

Steve Swan [00:47:24]:
Thank you. This was great. I appreciate it.

Michael Piperno [00:47:26]:
Thanks so much. I really appreciate you having me on, Steve. This was fun.