80: Rigorous Honesty in Recovery and Why Secrets Keep You Sick

Addiction doesn’t always look like chaos. Sometimes it’s a routine that slowly pulls you farther from yourself before you even notice. In this episode, we talk about why drugs and alcohol are such subtle foes, how autopilot living distorts reality, and why rigorous honesty is essential in recovery.

We explore relapse prevention, the neuroscience of craving, and the importance of strong support systems, honest community, and self-awareness. We also share a simple framework we rely on: focus on “me” first, then bring it to “we,” and lead with questions instead of advice.

Helpful Links:
Learn more about Restore Detox Centers
Filling the Void book by Steven T. Ginsburg
Overcoming the Fear and Lies of Addiction e-book
How to Love and Set Boundaries Without Enabling Addiction e-book
Call Us for Addiction Recovery:  1-800-982-5530

DISCLAIMER:
Welcome to the Addiction Recovery podcast, brought to you by Restore Detox Centers. We are dedicated to providing valuable and insightful information on addiction recovery. However, it is essential to understand that the content shared in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. While we strive to ensure the accuracy and reliability of the information presented, we cannot guarantee its completeness or suitability for individual circumstances. The topics discussed in this podcast are based on general knowledge and should not be considered a substitute for professional advice or treatment.

It is important to note that the views and opinions expressed by the podcast hosts, guests, or contributors are their own and may not necessarily reflect the views of Restore Detox Centers. We strongly advise listeners to consult with qualified professionals, such as addiction counselors, therapists, or medical practitioners, before making any decisions or taking any actions based on the information provided in this podcast. Please be aware that listening to this podcast does not establish a client-provider relationship with Restore Detox Centers.

Transcript

The Slow Creep Of Addiction

Steven Ginsburg 0:00

Drugs and alcohol are subtle foes. They're creepers. They creep in. And there's a little bit more, and a little bit more, and we're a little less present. And we need, not want, we need a little bit more.

Steve Coughran 0:13

This is the Addiction Recovery Podcast with Steven T. Ginsburg, founder of Restore Detox Centers in Sunny, California. Enjoy your experience. Steven, we've talked before about how we're only as sick as our secrets. And I want to revisit that with you. And I want to touch on this idea that you shared right before I hit record on this podcast episode about rigorous honesty.

Steven Ginsburg 0:42

Yeah. Steve, thank you. And I I love that you and I can, for lack of a better term, warm up. We just, you know, we talk life with each other. And sometimes the most important question you ask me is like, what's going on? Like, what are we seeing at Restore? What's coming up at Group? And I shared with you, you know, just how imperative and important it was that we really lived amidst and in rigorous honesty.

Rigorous Honesty And Self Inventory

Steven Ginsburg 1:06

And then you always ask those great questions, like, you know, define that. Like, where does that apply? How is it important? And so I want to take a moment here and thank you for bringing this up. You know, when when we self-assessed, and when I say we, let's look at both the we, like those of us who are already in this journey of recovery. And then also the we for people who are starting to come across the notion, you know, there's there's unmanageability in my life behind drugs or behind drugs and alcohol. When there is self-assessment, when you do RTI, real-time inventory, my sponsor, Sean, brought that to me and I love it, real-time inventory. And when we look at ourselves or our day or our behaviors or our actions, if we are anything less than completely forthcoming, if we don't self-assess, you know, I I always tongue in cheek say that that sodium pentathal level, that truth serum level, where we really look at what's going on and why, we really are either allowing ourselves to wander and drift into harm's way, or we are in harm's way and we are not willing to face it. We can only lie to ourselves and about ourselves for so long, and the consequences start to rear its ugly head.

Steve Coughran 2:25

And why do you think people get in this trap of lying? Is it just a matter of they feel guilty, they feel shame, they don't want to get found now? Like, what is it? Is it a combination of everything? What are you seeing?

Steven Ginsburg 2:37

So there's a trifective yes is right there, 100%. There's guilt, there's shame, there's remorse. They don't want to face it. But I think there's literally almost this is gonna sound like a crazy term, but it's what I'm getting hit with. Almost like inadvertent or accidental delusion. Inadvertent or accidental delusion, like complete like lack of real courageous and bold self-assessment. And then you start to perpetuate that lie, like, hey, it's just not that bad. I'm not really having an issue. I'm pivoting, and you're never really gaining ground. And listen, addiction and alcoholism inherently is a progressive illness, not a regressive illness. It has a scope of growth organically. So if we are in delusion or if we delude ourselves and we are living that lie, that fire is raging and it's gonna take down everything in its path, and it is so dangerous.

Steve Coughran 3:46

Well, yeah, and I totally agree. And what's interesting, when I was in Brazil recently, I was having a conversation with one of my mentors, and he was sharing this idea of how time goes by really fast in our lives and how it actually speeds up or it seems to speed up the older that we get. And he was

Autopilot Living And Self Delusion

Steve Coughran 4:06

sharing with me this research that he came about, and the research says the reason why time seems to speed up when we get older is because our brain is constantly looking for patterns and shortcuts. And so when we drive the same way home every single day, our brain will actually like fill in the gap with the images, and it goes in almost like autopilot. So that's why when you're just in stuck in a routine and you do the same things over and over again, then time goes by really fast because your brain is like skipping, like skipping the moment in a way. And so it's really interesting. The counter to this or slowing down time then comes from driving a different route or going to a new restaurant or getting out of just our daily routines. And we we went down this path and we we discussed this a little bit deeper. And the brain is really fascinating because our eyes, like we may have a scratch on our cornea. And I'm not I don't proclaim to be a doctor or a scientist by any means, but I'm just paraphrasing here to drive home this point. You know, our eyes may be scratched, like on the cornea. And so when we look out our eyes, like there may be scratches, maybe there's some like pixels that are out in our eyeballs, whatever it may be. So when we see the picture, our brain fills in the gaps. It's kind of like that AI mode where you have a picture and you're like, boom, hit it, and then it like makes your skin look nice and gets rid of your wrinkles or whatever. Um, the same thing happens with our brains every single day. And so, this whole idea of like body dysmorphia, where you can literally look in the mirror and you're like, oh, I'm fat, but then to other people, they're like, You are definitely not fat. But like, that's what you see, that's what your brain sees. And so, a quick story on this, then I'll make my point. I remember growing up, and when I was in high school, I would literally look down at my belly, and I was like, dang, I kind of got a belly, like a little gut. And I always thought this from freshman year to senior year, even though I was super athletic, working out all the time, running, wrestling, doing all this stuff. Then I would look at pictures of myself. Like I found this picture of me, like my junior year of high school during the summer, I had my shirt off, and I totally had a six pack, right? I totally had a six pack, but at the time I thought I was fat, it's crazy, right? And so when it comes to this rigorous honesty and this truth, don't you think sometimes people can have this the same type of thing? They don't see it. Maybe it's not a matter of them like lying to themselves per se, or maybe it's a part of them lying to themselves, but maybe they're just like so entrenched in a routine, or maybe their mind is just you're just tricking yourself with your mind that they they don't even see that they have a problem with alcohol or drugs or whatever it may be that they're struggling with. What say you on this?

Steven Ginsburg 7:12

I think it's a really remarkably good broad stroke on your part, brother, because it's like when you drive home. You do kind of I kind of check out when I drive home. Like, yeah, I'm present driving, I'm paying attention, but not really. Like, I'm not totally there, which is kind of nice. And I think that that spectrum exists in people who are in this, you know, like the movie Groundhogs Day is what comes to mind with Bill Murray. It's like Groundhog's Day, and he hears the song and the alarm clock. I think people, and I think sometimes, and this could be anyone, I'm not gearing this towards moms, but like I think about a mom coming home. She grabs a wine glass, she pulls a bottle of red wine out. She's got a really tall pour, and she's like throwing dinner together. She's on the phone with some rando girlfriend, like the kids are running around doing whatever. She's like, Okay, I don't have to deal with them. And like slowly but surely, that that comfort, that feeling of comfort is coming through that glass of wine. And then there's another one. Or you think about the dad coming home from the office, he grabs some of the ice, he pours a drink, he grabs a pill, and he's like, you know, the TV goes on, the feet go up, and it's like it is this groove that they're in, and they're losing touch with themselves, they're losing touch with the moment, they're numbing out. Yeah, yes, we all need to relax. Yes, we need to take a deep breath. Yes, we need to unwind. But when it starts to seep in and creep in, when it takes more and

Numbing Out And Losing Time

Steven Ginsburg 8:44

more to so that we can get out of our own way, so that we can endure, not enjoy. How can we be in a space where we're enduring and not enjoying our day-to-day? And it takes more and more chemicals of any sort, and let's not lose sight of the fact that alcohol is a chemical to just get through the day. You're losing those moments. We'll never get them back. And that's where I see a call to action, and that's where conversations like these are important. Look at what you and I even come up with, just discussing it and looking at it. So the rest of the world, like here, have this, absorb it. Is it relevant? Can you relate? Does it fit? If it does, you know, with the utmost respect and empathy and support, do something, make a change, step out, step up. There's a better way.

Steve Coughran 9:34

Yeah, exactly. And I think we could find ourselves in these routines, like you're saying, with the the glass of wine or the drink, you know, that you know, the the other person's pouring a night, whatever, you know, however we want to frame it. You get just in the routine, and it's like, it's just a glass of wine. I do this every night. Right, it's no big deal. Like, it's not like I'm beating my kids or like drunk driving around the city. It's just it's nothing. And then over time, you almost like build up a tolerance to it, and so then you think it's not that big of a deal, but it's habit forming.

Steven Ginsburg 10:10

Don't you think addiction can like totally creep in? There's a there's a line in the big book that I love. One of my one of my besties, his name is Bob. I adore him, and you'd love him, you have to meet him. And and he he often references what it says in the big book. Alcohol is a subtle foe. And and and I say, yes, and drugs and alcohol are subtle foes, they're creepers, they creep in, and there's a little bit more, and a little bit more, and we're a little less present. And we need, not want, we need a little bit more, and we're getting further and further away, and there's more and more volatility, and we're losing touch, we're losing time, and we're losing tempo, we're losing tempo, we're out of step, and suddenly there's this desperate feeling, and we're out too far from the shore, and we simply don't know how we're gonna make it back. Man, I'm going through a lot of feelings just talking about this. Like, please, like, everybody needs to just like wake up.

Steve Coughran 11:08

No, I I absolutely agree. So, what do you think blocks people or prevents people from living a life where there's this rigorous honesty?

Steven Ginsburg 11:18

Yeah, I just it's it's the enemy, it's fear, it's paralysis by analysis, Steve. There can't be anything wrong. I don't have time for there to be anything wrong. Nothing's wrong, you know, something's wrong. And it doesn't mean that things can't be right, but we've got to go into massive action and we've got to change just one thing, which is everything. It takes courage. Like we have to be bold. And here, here's where here's where I am praying that our words really help. And praying that our words really hit. You know, don't wait until you get that gift of desperation. You do not have to be out there waiting for that gift of desperation. You don't have to be waiting for the the horrible yets to hit you in your life. Haven't lost my job yet. My marriage hasn't dissolved or gone away yet. My kids haven't stopped talking to me yet. I haven't been arrested yet. You don't have to wait. You can start changing everything now just by facing and embracing your truth.

Steve Coughran 12:21

Do you think something happens in the brain? Right? I mean, because you you've been through this as well, you know, and I've I've had periods of this as well. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. I remember I had this technician who worked for me back when I owned my landscape business. Great kid. I mean, he was so polite. All the customers loved him. He showed up on time, right? He did his job very well. But then he would share things about his life where he's like, Oh, I need to be better with this, or I need to stop doing this. And, you

Fear Denial And The Amygdala

Steve Coughran 12:58

know, he'd always share his dreams, ambitions, his goals, etc. But then he would never follow through with them. And then I started realizing this pattern where I felt like he was just telling me the things that I wanted to hear. And I remember calling him out once, and I called him by name, and I was like, You're full of crap. You're just you're full of crap and you know it. And I mean, I thought he knew it, and maybe he didn't know it, or maybe didn't see it, or maybe, like, we've been talking about maybe like literally your mind becomes warped and you can't see it. But what do you think that is? Because, like, to be really honest with yourself, like, we can't do it, or sometimes we just we're we're not honest with ourselves. Why is that?

Steven Ginsburg 13:48

The the first answer is part of what you referenced, which is just the denial and the delusion, which is part of it. But the second answer has a neurological component, which is the amygdala. And the amygdala is literally the part of my brain, I want to leave it to me because I am an addict and an alcoholic, I literally have a physiological reaction to mind-altering substances. That's a that's a real fact. When I have a mind-altering substance, if it crosses my into my system, you know, literally my amygdala literally gets hijacked. And when that is hijacked, my brain is taken over and it triggers that full-on reaction to mind-altering substance, and that literally makes it hyperreactive. And I start seeking what? More and more and more. And there's no stopping until I get stopped. And so it's both facets. It's it's an emotional and a psychological response, an ongoing perpetual issue, and then it's a neurological response. When people like me, that's why I love where I am grateful for the fact that I am an addict and alcoholic. I'm grateful that it's there's not some lofty perch I'm I'm hoisted on. It's not some clinical background. I am a garden variety, grateful, recovering addict and alcoholic who suffers from the same thing many people I will reach suffer from. And it's that neurological reaction to mind-altering substances that we have that perpetuates addiction and alcoholism.

Steve Coughran 15:23

Yeah. And I and I think you have a great support system. I imagine your wife's pretty honest with you.

Steven Ginsburg 15:30

Mm-hmm.

Steve Coughran 15:31

Does she call you out? Does she call you out on things or what?

Steven Ginsburg 15:36

Absolutely. As does Marlia, as does Braden, and I'm grateful for all of it. As does my sponsor, as do the men that I sponsor, as do the men and women that I am clean and sober with. And you know, I was at it, I was at my home group for Alcoholics Anonymous today, and it's just a bunch of people in community loving each other really well and telling each other the truth about their truths. And you know, that perpetuates my ongoing remission and reprief. And it's a beautiful way to live. And I'll tell you one thing there was no substance I could ingest that compared to the feeling I get just participating in the elements that on a daily basis continue to allow me to have my remission and my reprieve. That's interesting.

Steve Coughran 16:25

Okay, let me ask you this because you deal with a lot of people at Restore. And I mean, this is it's kind of biased in a way because you run Restore, right? So you do have a fiduciary responsibility in some ways to the community members that you engage with. But at what level do you feel responsible for calling people out on their crap? Yeah. Let me let me ask you that. You know, and let's talk about it from a restore perspective, like the owner, the operator of restore. Yeah. And then let's talk about it just in your personal life with friends and loved ones.

Steven Ginsburg 17:04

Yes. It's a really good question. So I feel 3 trillion percent responsible in a loving, empathetic, nurturing way to call people out on their truth. And I feel that I'm called to be a good steward to restore. I am trusted. Nicole and I are trusted with restore, and that is an honor beyond words. What comes along with that honor is I'm gonna be up front. I'm gonna take the bullets so other people can reach the beach. And some of the unpopular, inconvenient truths are the ones I'm going to speak to others, but I do not have any latitude where I could fail them because it is the difference between life and death. And so there's that. And then in my day-to-day life, it has to be more tempered and measured. Certainly, listen, with the men that I have the blessing and privilege and honor of sponsoring, you know, first of all, they're all different, and I have a different approach with each of them, but I owe them the truth and they will get the truth from me. Uh, my sponsor to me, I expect and I seek out hard truth. I'm not looking for someone to sign off. I'm looking for some guy who has signed up and wants to help me continue to embrace the reality of my day-to-day. Uh, with my wife and children, part of what's important there where the authenticity of those dynamics is concerned, and where making my best better as a father and as a husband is concerned, is you know, the tenth step shows me, Steve, continue to take personal inventory and when wrong, probably admitted it. I, you know, I make mistakes on a daily basis. When I make mistakes, which I do, uh, I am quick to own them and make amends for them. And then I do my best not to repeat them. My family's very good at letting me know, like if I'm off track or if I'm off balance, or if my tone isn't right, or if my approach isn't right. And I have to remember, it's it's not going to help them or help me to get defensive. It's going to help me and help them by taking ownership of it. We're right back to rigorous honesty and realizing my part in it and making amends where appropriate.

Steve Coughran 19:12

But how do you do it in a way where you don't come across as self-righteous or condescending or like you have everything figured out? Like, how do you like have that conversation? And how do you recommend people having that conversation with others? Because you know, we all commit sins, we all have our shortcomings. I remember listening to the speaker once, and he said he came across this bumper sticker and it said, Don't judge me because I sinned differently. And I think that's so true. Like, I can call you out on something, Steven. I can be like, Steven, you know, last time I was out visiting you, I saw this,

Truth Telling Without Self Righteousness

Steve Coughran 19:48

and you should do this and this and this. And it's like, hey, look at you, buddy. Like, right, you're you're judging me for this little moat, this little speck in my eye, and you got a massive tree trunk coming out of your eyes. So it's like, how do we do that in a constructive way where we're not just passive, where it's life and death, and you're like, Yeah, that sounds good. Keep living your life like that, but also not coming across in a way that's gonna be so repulsive to somebody that they're like, okay, I'm avoiding this guy at all costs.

Steven Ginsburg 20:18

Yeah. So it's a really good talking point, especially on the restore side. Here's what's really important and imperative to me where I'm called. I always feel it's a must, M U S T, that I do me first and then I offer it to we. So I talk about the things that I must do on a daily basis where my remission and reprieve is concerned, the things that I get to do that comprise my footwork on a daily basis. And then once I'm addressing the me part of it, I feel that I have licensure to then pivot and offer it, not impose it, not demand it, but let now allow me to offer it to we, since I applied it to me. And where I would suggest this could fit into your life so that you can gain your own remission and reprieve. I feel like that is where the Lord has helped me with my approach. I'm grateful for that. That's not something I would naturally inherently know. I think I've learned through the years, and I think I've been able to trust my discernment. And I think that is all built because I have sobriety and I have clarity.

Steve Coughran 21:26

Yeah. And I and I think that's spot on. And I I heard once where somebody is explaining the difference between counsel and advice. And you know, when you're giving advice to somebody, I'm saying, hey, Steven, you should do this because I did this, or I heard a friend this, or I read about this, and you should do this in your life, right? And I'm shooting you. And really, it's you know, I'm coming at from my perspective, but you and I, we could live in the same exact neighborhood in the same exact house, same exact Floor plan, same exact number of kids, same dog, everything in our experiences would be wildly different, right? So it's so hard to give advice to somebody, and just because it worked for us or for me doesn't mean it works for you. Counsel, on the other hand, is asking people questions and learning about their perspective, and then saying, hey, you know, like what's gonna work best for you versus you know just telling somebody what to do. We I think we all have friends, we've probably all done it at one point in our lives too, where it's like, oh Steven, this is what you should do, man. You know, if you're trying to talk to me and you're like, hey, Steve, you know, I'm really struggling with this. I'm like, oh Steven, check this out, man. This is you have to do this. This will this will fix everything. Who am I to say that? I'm I'm nobody to say that at all, but like I'm here to listen, I'm here to empathize. I'm not gonna let you like pull a fast one on me or like keep hurting yourself or harming your family by just you know, giving me a bunch of garbage. Uh, of course, I'm gonna like call you out on that, but there's there's a way to do it, and I think sometimes there is we when you give advice, you know, it's just like it's not even practical, it's not even helpful, right?

Steven Ginsburg 23:15

I know we're like heading towards the tail end of this, but it's such a good talking point. We could we could really go on forever, but that's not unusual for you and I the one of the guys I sponsor who I just cannot see

Counsel Over Advice

Steven Ginsburg 23:24

straight about. I love there was a a while back something had come up, and I really it was kind of even out of character for my dynamics with him. I really came at him a little bit more guns blazing, and it's just because I just for lack of a better term, I just was afraid he was gonna start slipping. I was afraid he was gonna start drifting. So I I came at it the wrong way. And although we didn't lose touch completely, although there was no big consequence behind my approach being off somewhat, it caused a little bit of a gap with he and I. And I was able to regroup and kind of we were able to find our way back towards each other. There was not even a problem that was spoken of, it was just understood, but it helped me. It helped me understand like, hey, with this individual, that approach is the quickest way to get him to shut down and do the opposite of where you're trying to help. And so I think we've got to look at that case by case basis, and we've gotta, we've gotta really find our way. Like, we should do an episode on this, Steve. Like finding our way towards empathy, towards being that empath in the world with individuals. That is, man, that's that's tough. Yeah. Because because we want the best for others, but man, the way we'll go about trying to offer it to them, it can bring out the very worst in us and in them. Uh, so I just think there's there's got to be, and I'm I'm really grateful that the Lord has called me and has worked with me and has helped me to pull back and really see to listen more, like listen more, let people finish. You're gonna be able to get in there and make impact. I know, and listen, I want to fix it all. And I know I can't, but I want to offer that path, that proven path that has continued to allow me to sustain

Listener Email And Closing

Steven Ginsburg 25:16

my life in sobriety.

Steve Coughran 25:17

Yep. Love it. So, what are your thoughts on rigorous honesty? Pull your phone right now. You can email us at hello at restore detoxcenters.com. We'd love to hear from you. Was there something in this episode that really resonated with you? Do you have more questions? Do you have podcast ideas? All this feedback is always welcome. We love to hear from you, and you can email us at that address. Steven, so great to do another episode with you.

Steven Ginsburg 25:43

Yeah, Steve, thank you so much. Such an important, imperative topic. Uh, just want to send everyone our love and support. Uh, continue to live your truth, people. Everyone have a safe and sober day.