83: Is Addiction a Disease or a Choice

If addiction is causing so much damage, why can’t someone just stop? In this episode, Steven Ginsburg, founder of Restore Detox Centers and a recovering addict and alcoholic, explains how addiction goes beyond willpower and affects the brain much like an allergy affects the body.

We discuss the role of genetics, tolerance, and brain chemistry, as well as the importance of personal responsibility in recovery. Steven shares why daily recovery practices—meetings, sponsorship, step work, and service—are essential for lasting change.

If this conversation resonates with you, subscribe, share it, and leave a review. To connect with us directly, email hello@restoredetoxcenters.com.

Helpful Links:
Learn more about Restore Detox Centers
Filling the Void book by Steven T. Ginsburg
Overcoming the Fear and Lies of Addiction e-book
How to Love and Set Boundaries Without Enabling Addiction e-book
Call Us for Addiction Recovery:  1-800-982-5530

DISCLAIMER:
Welcome to the Addiction Recovery podcast, brought to you by Restore Detox Centers. We are dedicated to providing valuable and insightful information on addiction recovery. However, it is essential to understand that the content shared in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. While we strive to ensure the accuracy and reliability of the information presented, we cannot guarantee its completeness or suitability for individual circumstances. The topics discussed in this podcast are based on general knowledge and should not be considered a substitute for professional advice or treatment.

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Transcript

Moment By Moment Mindset

Steven Ginsburg 0:00

It is a day at a time. Sometimes a day is too much, Steve. So sometimes it's an hour at a time. Sometimes an hour is too much. So it's moment by moment.

Steve Coughran 0:10

This is the Addiction Recovery Podcast with Steven T. Ginsburg, founder of Restore Detox Centers in Sunny, California. Enjoy your experience.

Is Addiction A Disease Or Choice

Steve Coughran 0:23

Steven, so great to be back together with you today. I want to bring up a topic that is highly debated out there regarding addiction. And so the question that I want to pose to you, I want to hear your perspective on this because obviously you work with a lot of people. This is your expertise. I mean, you own restore detox centers. I mean, this is your world here. So my question is this Is addiction a disease, or is it really just a choice?

The Peanut Allergy Analogy

Steven Ginsburg 0:50

Really good. Uh, Steve, thank you. Really good to be back with you. Uh I love our time and I love our talking points. So, never to answer a question with a question, but the thing that I immediately go to is does someone who has a violent peanut allergy have a choice to how they react to consuming peanuts? And it's pretty rhetorical. If they have a violent peanut allergy, they are gonna have the same physiological, physical, and even neurological to an extent reaction if they ingest peanuts or peanuts products. People like myself, I'm a grateful recovering addict and alcoholic. I have an allergy to mind-altering substances. So if I ingest a mind-altering substance, my mind literally gets hijacked. And what ensues is the part of it where I have no choice. I will go on to a violent and a vile run of addiction and alcoholism and addiction and alcoholic-based behavior after I've consumed that first ingestion in any way, shape, or form of a mind-altering substance. Where there is a choice, though, is this the first one is on me. I have no mental defense against that first drink or drug. That being said, if on a daily basis I am treating the spiritual malady that I carry on a daily basis, what provides me my remission, my reprieve, I don't need a mental defense against that first drink or drug because that spiritual malady is spoken to. And amidst that admission and reprieve, I am not going to pick that first one up today.

Steve Coughran 2:36

Yeah. No, and I think that's a really good point. And I think people out there, they can quietly hold both of these views at once. So for example, they may say it's a disease. And but really like privately, they may be wondering why doesn't the person just stop? Yes. They're making a choice. And is the disease label just enabling somebody with you know this type of issue?

Enabling The Solution Through Footwork

Steven Ginsburg 3:04

You know, without action, it is. Oh, there, you know, they have a disease. Like we don't sit there and we don't blame people with cancer. So while we may be in that posture where we don't blame people who are amidst the perils of addiction and alcoholism, what we don't do is we don't enable the disease, but we enable the solution because there is footwork that can be taken and that is taken that provides sobriety and that again answers and beckons to that spiritual malady. But without the footwork, that dis-ease, that disease takes root and takes hold and takes the addict and alcoholic back into relapse time and time again, and then ultimately into death and institutions.

Steve Coughran 3:54

Okay, so so talk about that point because let's dive deeper into this idea of personal responsibility. I mean, you say this all the time. So if somebody's saying, okay, it's this, it's a disease like diabetes or like cancer, right? Like you can't choose your way out of cancer. But when it comes to recovery, like we talk about all the time, it requires choices, showing up, doing the footwork, staying willing, all this. Yes. So talk a little bit about that contradiction or just like that counterpoint there.

Steven Ginsburg 4:26

It's a perfect talking point because it's the foundation of where recovery starts and the disease ends uh on a daily basis. Again, you know, it's about like what is the quality of our surrender going to be? Like, will we? It's all the stuff. Like, will we go to any length today where our sobriety is concerned? Will we continue to participate on a daily basis? Look, by God's grace and mercy, Steve, as we sit here talking, I'm a little bit over 21 and a half years clean and sober. But I read my daily Bible verse today, I read my daily reflection, I've been to a meeting today, I've done group today, I've talked to my sponsor today. Uh, the third step has been part of my life today, the tenth step has been part of my life today, and I get to be of service today. Those elements are providing me my remission and my reprieve today. And I am choosing to participate with those elements today. So let's very quickly, I'm gonna wrap this part up. So now I'm back to a, let's go back to diabetic. A diabetic has to choose to participate with their insulin. Right. That makeup that I've just described, that is my insulin. Against what? My addiction and alcoholism just for today. Today's all I got and it's all I need. Without those things, if complacency comes in, if my laurels are rested upon, which I have no laurels to rest upon, drink time will come. I will go back out. It's just a matter of when.

Steve Coughran 5:54

And that's a good metaphor. I like how you use that metaphor with the insulin. So I want to say something, not to make you upset, but just to play along. And there's a point to this because my next question is based on kind of your response here. But what if somebody said to you, you know what, Steven? Look, I I get that you say it's a disease, and you know, you like you you struggle with this this disease, and it's a disease I don't have. But come on, man, let's just face it. You like drinking and doing drugs back in the day.

Why Some People Cannot Moderately Use

Steven Ginsburg 6:24

Yeah, loved it. And I couldn't, I loved drinking and doing drugs, and I couldn't stop, and I couldn't stay stopped. A person who doesn't suffer from this disease can put it down, can stop, can have manageability in their life while still participating amidst those elements. I don't have the ability to do that. If I smoke any marijuana, if I have a glass of Pinot Grigio, I am going to inevitably be led back to my drug of choice and my drugs of choice. I am going to go on a vile and violent run of addiction and alcoholism. And I am going to have that unmanageability rear its ugly head again because my brain has been hijacked. And that is the allergy that I have and that I carry. I still have it. It's just in remission at this moment because of the steps I take and have taken to provide that remission and reprieve today. It is a day at a time. Sometimes a day is too much, Steve. So sometimes it's an hour at a time. Sometimes an hour is too much. So it's moment by moment.

Tolerance Functional Addiction Unmanageability

Steve Coughran 7:42

Yeah, and I remember reading this book by Malcolm Gladwell back in the day, and I'll probably botch some of these facts here out of the book. But essentially what he is saying that caught my attention was some people, let's just take smoking cigarettes. Let's take chewing, for example. Did you ever chew back in the day?

Steven Ginsburg 7:59

Yeah. I I I did not, but I was a cigarette, a minor league cigarette smoker.

Steve Coughran 8:04

Okay, so you're you're you did a little bit amateur. So I remember the first time I tried chewing tobacco is Copenhagen. And I remember like my friend gave me a can, and there was you know a few dips left. So I put one in. I'd never tried it before. So here I was with the big old fat lip of chewing tobacco, and I was in my room doing sit-ups. I was like doing sit-ups and push-ups, like working out and spitting in a cup. I remember 10 minutes in, I was sick as a dog. I was spinning and had cold sweats, and I was like throwing up, and I was like, this is the worst thing ever.

Steven Ginsburg 8:44

Right.

Steve Coughran 8:45

And then I did it again, and then you know, it became you know, this addiction. But in the book by Malcolm Gladwell, he is saying essentially, some people have a higher tolerance for certain drugs or alcohol or just substances, and so therefore, if you have a higher tolerance, maybe you smoke a cigarette and you get a little bit of buzz off of it, but then you smoke two and you get more of a buzz. But that higher tolerance has you taking more volume, like partaking more quantity, which then leads to addiction, right? Because you're doing more and more of it, then the body starts craving it. Some people have like this natural defense system where they try it a little bit at a time and then they they get sick or they're like, this is terrible, it doesn't make me feel good, and then they never try it again. So I think there's something there, but I I want to hear your professional opinion. Obviously, you're the expert on this topic, because I I know that even some girls back in high school, they're like they have one beer and like I'm drunk, and blah, blah, blah. And they, you know, they they never drink, right? And they just it's very bad for them. And then there's other guys they could drink a 12 pack, right? And still not be phased. So talk a little bit about tolerance and the physiological side of addiction from your experience.

Steven Ginsburg 10:01

I mean, it's it's real, and and so many times, and all too often, I found myself and find myself working with, and it comes much more later in life, very functional addicts and alcoholics. The unmanageability has not reared its ugly head. They've gone along for quite some time, and what happens is physiologically their body starts to break down. So that's when it starts to rear its ugly head, and that's when it starts to be treated, for lack of a better term. Conversely, I know people like myself. The first time I drank, the first time I used, I was like, this is it. I have found the answer. Like my emptiness is finally filled up, and all I want to do is feel this way again. So I will go on to seek feeling this way again, now a day at a time, daily. And the unmanageability came right behind it because my entire life and world, thank the Lord, started to fall apart. And so never the two shall meet. There's just different realms and levels of all of it. And by the way, not every person who drinks or who drinks and drugs, they're not all gonna end up in recovery, and they're not gonna all end up going through that ultimate barometer and that litmus test for addiction and alcoholism, which is is unmanageability presenting itself in your life? And are you powerless over the substance of conversation? And that's just the way it goes. Uh, I you and I know people in common, and they're just extremely functional and they're doing what they're doing. And would it be better if they abstained? Yeah, do they have any reason to abstain? Not yet. Right. Will that day come? I don't know. My day did. Well, I'm grateful it did.

Steve Coughran 11:47

Yeah, and I mean the research proves this over and over again, and there's so many advancements in this field where actual changes in the brain. Yes, there's this hijacking of the reward in decision-making circuitry, right? So the disease isn't just like, oh, it's you know, it's some kind of you know, thing I say or slogan, but there's true like biological proof that addiction runs much deeper than just an excuse.

Steven Ginsburg 12:15

I mean, I have a genetic makeup that makes me an addict and alcoholic. And being aware of that now, especially through two stints of sobriety, especially after the value of my relapse, my relapse was very valuable. I was talking about this in group today. I it properly adjudicated the gift of desperation, which I needed. And I was God fearing and disease fearing my second time around. So I don't take any realm of complacency into my recovery. I pursue my recovery intentionally the way I pursued my drugs and alcohol intentionally. Other people aren't in those circumstances, so there's a realm of choice until there's not. There's also people that are more towards your and mind's phase of life where suddenly they're starting to lose their grip. There's starting to be more and more consequences. I've got so many examples of that currently in real time, all sorts of different demographics on the age, Steve, where suddenly it wasn't a problem until when? Until it was one, and then what? We've got a solution, but it comes through complete surrender.

Steve Coughran 13:25

Yeah, I love that. Okay, one last point on this. Yeah.

Excuses Surrender And No Safe Substances

Steve Coughran 13:29

You know, I think about, you know, let me just tie this back to um weight, body shape, weight, right? And this this is probably sensitive for some of you who are listening, so I'll be careful in the way that I describe this. But I remember, you know, like back in the day, whether it's in high school or college or whatever, and it's like, yeah, you know, Susie, she really has, you know, a weight problem. It's just genetic, it's all genetics, right? But then when I would like visually see or observe her behavior, you could see her drinking like five glasses of orange juice, right, at breakfast and having, you know, bacon and sausage and donuts, and like just the eating habits and the behavior didn't match, right? So I get that there are some instances out there where people have this genetic disposition to gain weight and to carry weight easier than other people. I think that's scientifically proven. I'm not arguing that. But I also think that it this the formula is pretty simple. You know, if we watch our calories, if we eat healthy, if we exercise, if we get to sleep, like chances are we're not gonna be obese. Like I can't imagine somebody consuming 2,000 calories a day, working out, being active, getting the sleep, and then they weigh 400 pounds. Right. Maybe that maybe that happens. You know, maybe I'm completely wrong and naive. Maybe that happens, but chances are that probably doesn't happen. Okay, so let me tie this back to drugs and alcohol because I could see somebody, whether it's a 20-year-old kid who comes back home to live with mom and dad, yeah, or you know, it's a partner, a spouse, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, whoever it may be, an employee, and they say, Well, you know, I can't control it. It's just this disease that I have.

Steven Ginsburg 15:29

Yeah.

Steve Coughran 15:30

And I can't stop drinking. I I can't stop smoking weed or doing this or that. And they use that as an excuse, kind of like what I talked about earlier on in this episode. Respond to that because I would never want somebody to use this as manipulation or as a crutch or an excuse to getting sober and getting the help that they deserve.

Steven Ginsburg 15:50

I I think it's an underhanded softball pitch, which I love. Great. If you if once you start, you can't stop. Congratulations. Like you you qualify, like you are one of us. Because Joe Schmo and John Smith, they don't have that issue. If they have something goes on and they do something or they have a drink or they do any of that, they they pick up and they put down and they go out with their life. Uh, that is not the same physiological, neurological, emotional, spiritual reaction that someone like myself or my contemporaries have if we ingest a mind-altering substance. Yeah, and I I want to I want to get into this part of it really quickly. Marlia, our youngest, who's ridiculously brilliant and you know her very well, and very keen on this topic. She's like, Dad, when you relapsed, you never drank. That's a true thing, by the way. When I relapsed, I did not drink. Because I am much more of a traditional drug addict. That does not mean I'm not an alcoholic. So therefore, Dad, could you drink? Because you haven't had a drink since you were 19 years old. The answer is I would choose not to drink today. Why, Dad? The base ingredient of alcohol is ethanol. Ethanol is a drug. If I ingest a mind-altering substance that is a drug, my addictive behavior is going to come full flight because my brain's going to get hijacked and I'm going to have my allergic reaction. Therefore, there is no mind-altering substance, including any realm of alcohol, that is safe for me to ingest. And therein lies the answer. Well, that made sense to Marlia, who at the time was 12. If that makes sense to a 12-year-old, that makes sense to everyone because that is the answer to all of this.

Steve Coughran 17:32

Exactly. It's not that complicated.

Steven Ginsburg 17:34

It's actually I am, but this isn't.

Closing Thoughts And Listener Email

Steve Coughran 17:38

Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Another great episode. I'm glad that we had this conversation today because I think it's a really important one. And like we always say at the end of the show, we'd love to hear from you. You can always email us at hello at restore detoxcenters.com. We love to hear your feedback. We love to hear your story. Anything that you you want to share with us, uh, email is a great way to connect.

Steven Ginsburg 18:01

Amen. Please, we would love to hear from you. We are for you. We love hearing from everyone who's out there. If you have questions, if you have concerns, if you just want to chat, anything we want to hear from you, please know this. We love you. We are for you. Everyone have a safe and sober day. And Steve, as always, brother, thank you for these imperative and important talking points.

Steve Coughran 18:22

Right back at you.