[00:00:00] Introducing Commander Adam Kahnke
[00:00:00] Harry Cohen: our guest today is Commander Adam Kahnke, and it is not going to be easy for us to share with you how accomplished this man is because he's so darn humble. He has spent 30 years in the Navy. He's a commander of a nuclear submarine. Right now he's at the Pentagon. He was given the command after traveling around the world underwater in a nuclear submarine, the job of developing from scratch the command of the USS Arkansas in dry dock, which is a very unique experience, which he'll describe to you.
[00:00:35] But one of the things that was so impressive To us is how he took the principles of "Be the Sun, Not the Salt" and applied them in the military to build the culture that he and the military wants. So he's going to tell you some of the ways that he did that. And I think you're going to love it. Connie, what did you take away from it?
[00:00:59] Connie Fontaine: Well, you used the word humble. He's humble. He's kind. He's, you know, he brags about his wonderful wife, Sarah, who holds down the fort and with the six kids that they raised together. And one of the things that I kept having this, this vision of this wonderful, sweet human leading people in the way that he does.
[00:01:19] and I was impressed with the takeaways from the book that he shares with us, and I'm also overall impressed with the military and the focused on mental health and the ability to groom our wise warriors, those that keep us safe, that also need compassion in terms of leadership, and they get a chance to have interpersonal skills and all the important things that we talk about in business.
[00:01:43] So with that, I think we can jump right into this great conversation with Adam.
[00:01:48] Harry Cohen: I am so honored that commander Adam Kahnke has agreed to be on our podcast. I want our listeners to hear about your accomplishments and also how we met. Connie, let me introduce to you, commander Adam Kahnke
[00:02:06] Connie Fontaine: Hi Adam. It's such a pleasure to meet you. We are honored for your service, honored for your willingness to be part of this discussion, because we have continued to meet leaders in the military that are driving change. we are so excited to hear your journey and how you bring that change to your teams that you work with.
[00:02:25] Adam Kahnke: Harry, Connie, thanks so much for having me today. I'm the one who's honored here to be on this show today. It's really great.
[00:02:33] Building a Positive Culture in the Military
[00:02:33] Adam Kahnke: To answer your question, Harry, how did we meet? The Navy, was forward thinking in some of our efforts and we're looking at new ways to get after culture. they signed us up with a function and Harry happened to be there his enthusiasm and just, he was very energetic and good to be around. So I had to figure out, hey, what's going on with this guy when he came up and introduced himself. then he told me about his book and what he was doing with it. Which I then brought back to my submarine when I was in command of the PCU, Arkansas. I got an opportunity to share that with the leaders on my submarine, which I found to be, very useful to have that discussion and dialogue.
[00:03:12] And that book really facilitated that.
[00:03:14] Harry Cohen: And we talked briefly cause I stalked you after that conference on LinkedIn And said, I would love so much for you to share how it has been helpful to you. And we chatted briefly about the fact that.
[00:03:28] The culture in the Navy is in evolution and you were teaching a leadership class and you were going to explore whether this would have some resonance with the leaders that you were teaching. So I'd love for you to share your story, your insights, and what was helpful for our listeners who are both leaders and non leaders, but could find some use.
[00:03:52] In your story.
[00:03:54] Adam Kahnke: Yeah. Thanks for that, Harry. I'll just start off with a little disclaimer that, I'm not really speaking for the Navy or the submarine force. I'm speaking for Adam here in my experience that I've had. I've been in the Navy since 1993, and it's been a long journey.
[00:04:07] So the better part of my adult life has been serving on submarines in some capacity, whether it be in college learning or on an actual boat. the United States Navy granted me with a gift of command. So they put me in command of the PCU Arkansas, which is, the Navy's newest Virginia class attack submarine.
[00:04:29] Adam Kahnke: It's not a submarine at sea, ready to go out, diving and going on deployment and stuff like that.
[00:04:35] Building a Unique Submarine Culture
[00:04:35] Adam Kahnke: It's actually, it was an interesting, unique opportunity to take a submarine. And be the first commanding officer of it and be able to build the culture from the ground up from the way I wanted it with, every new member coming in from the beginning.
[00:04:50] Being the first crew member on board and having other people join me and trying to figure out, Hey, what is my culture? What do I want my culture to look like on board this submarine based on my life experience on other warships. And, I did a lot of soul searching and then the Navy really facilitates that. One thing I want to say is I think the submarine force has fantastic leadership, and I have been graced with some really amazing mentors throughout my 31 years in naval service. so much so that I had my oldest son joined the submarine force so that he could experience some of that, mentorship and leadership as well. I've experienced a lot of interesting things from a lot of really talented people. And one of the things that, I thought about when I was establishing my culture is, Hey, I really want to make sure that I'm engaging every single individual on this submarine to their full capacity. And the best way I thought to do that was to make people feel like this is a really unique place as a very junior sailor to be able to be heard and have somebody listen and take feedback and take action on it, or to explain to me why maybe that wasn't the right thing to do to take that action. I really drove with my culture, with my, command triad to make sure that we are, building that environment and I talked about it all the time. Every opportunity to get feedback from my crew. I made sure to tell them. Hey, I really respect and value your feedback. I want it. Even if you guys haven't felt like I'm going to listen to you, please give it to me and it'll facilitate a dialogue for me to be able to say, Hey, Why are we doing things that way on Arkansas?
[00:06:31] And then just to couch everything in perspective, the mission of a PCU commanding officer is a little bit different, I was saying, than a operational commanding officer on a submarine that's taken their submarine over to foreign ports and getting it ready to, at a moment's notice, participate in whatever's going on in the world. We man up really early. It takes a long time to build a Virginia class submarine in the shipyard. We're, almost a 10 year period from construction start to delivery of that submarine.
[00:07:01] And we bring the crew on pretty early so that we can, certify them. And be part of the construction of the submarine.
[00:07:08] So the initial submarine crew runs the nuclear test program which initially, starts up the reactor for the first time, make sure that we're getting all the right components and I have to certify my crew to make sure that they're safe to operate that reactor. So we had a lot of time, which was a little bit different than your average submarine crew that's so busy doing operations that you have to have, basically it's a one for one replacement with people that are already qualified and already ready to do that job. It was a little different because most of the people that came into my crew starting out hadn't done that before, except for a small handful of leaders and we
[00:07:47] had to take them from, From the start all the way to the finish. And, it gave me a unique opportunity to,
[00:07:53] Not inherit anybody else's culture.
[00:07:56] I'm responsible for all my problems that I create
[00:07:59] and all the goodness that we came through as a command, we got to experience that from the ground up, which was really neat.
[00:08:06] Connie Fontaine: Yeah, you had a clean slate. From equipment to crew to everything, which is a unique opportunity.
[00:08:11] Challenges and Leadership in the Shipyard
[00:08:11] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, I was just going to say that there are a lot of challenges associated with having a submarine crew in the shipyard that are they can be both good and bad, right? So we get to go home every night. We're not at sea on deployment, which is nice. But that can be a little bit of a double edged sword because people can be pulled in multiple directions at the same time.
[00:08:33] So they're available to be close to home to help with problems, but yet there's a demand signal at work and they have to figure out that work life balance, but It can be really challenging, especially when we're going into a critical testing period and I have to put people on a rotating shift work where basically they might have to come in every single dayseven days a week and 365 days a year while we're running that test program and people's family get pretty frustrated when they're, not far away, not at sea, but still can't come home,
[00:09:04] and it can be pretty grueling and we're running a marathon.
[00:09:07] Harry Cohen: And I can imagine you as a leader to try and create a culture and morale. Which is positive and heliotropic and non resentful of their commanding officer. That's where your prowess as a great leader is tested. Because, obviously, you have to create the culture where they do want to work. In spite of all of those challenges, I presume you've been successful.
[00:09:34] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, lucky for me, it's a pretty important mission that everybody's doing. So it's an easy sell to say, Hey, look at what we're providing for the country and look at your part of it. And as long as I can successfully demonstrate that to people it's amazing what it's everybody's willing to do to make that mission happen.
[00:09:54] Harry Cohen: I like that insight too that all leaders need to create some level of mission, why, that has an emotional resonance that pushes us to do more. I like that as a principle. The why for any mission, whether it's a service mission, a hospitality mission Care for your customer mission, defend our country mission.
[00:10:13] I like that you said that when I say I like, I think it's a helpful principle for us to be reminded of. I love that.
[00:10:20] Connie Fontaine: Agreed.
[00:10:21] The Importance of Trust and Feedback
[00:10:21] Connie Fontaine: Do you have a mentor? You talked about some of the people that influenced you through your career. somebody that taught you something that you took to that experience?
[00:10:30] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, absolutely. I think my biggest mentor was my first commanding officer when I was an officer on USS Alexandria. We did a around the world deployment from Connecticut under the North Pole, into the, Westpac and then we came through the Suez and did some operations in the Mediterranean and then came home.
[00:10:47] So once in a lifetime, that was the first time a submarine had ever Done a Westpac from a boat station in Groton. So it was a really interesting experience to, do that. And watching my first, commanding officer do that was really neat because he really let us run the show with full trust and confidence so that we could operate without too much micromanagement and really be, as good as we were capable of, which was awesome.
[00:11:12] Connie Fontaine: There's trust.
[00:11:13] Adam Kahnke: thanks for that question.
[00:11:14] Connie Fontaine: Adam, could you speak to some of the ways that you engendered that trust, some of the soft skills that people might take for granted but that you learned either through your mentor, the hard way? I know it sounds simple, but, holding people accountable and still being respectful and heliotropic, demanding high standards and still being the sun and not the salt.
[00:11:41] Adam Kahnke: Harry, I really appreciate that question. And I think it's super important. And that's the question I asked my wardroom when I brought the book in, I'm like, Hey team, can we be high performance leaders with high standards, running things like nuclear reactors, making sure that we're operating our submarine safely and still do it to the exacting standard without bringing the salt- without being complete jerks?
[00:12:03] And especially when we're under that pressure to really succeed And of course, when you're in a high performing team like that, and you got a long distance to travel and tons of things to learn, it's not going to go well, all the time, you're going to have struggles and challenges.
[00:12:17] And if you're not having struggles and challenges, you're probably not pushing the envelope hard enough. And you're probably not getting everything you can out of your team. we experienced some of that when I was in command, we had a a brief period of time where we weren't learning fast enough, So we weren't really giving good training and we kinda, we weren't really honest with ourselves about How unsatisfactory that training was going for a while. So it took some time to actually took somebody from the outside.
[00:12:48] My squadron had to come and be like, Hey, I don't think you guys are really performing at the level we want you to perform at, to start up a nuclear reactor for the first time. As you guys can understand, there's a lot of just concern when you do something for the first time. So you got to do it right.
[00:13:04] And when we took our tests the feedback we got were, Hey your knowledge is not as full as it really needs to be. So you guys have to get after it. so I guess really the feedback for other leaders would be, you gotta be honest with yourselves and you gotta figure out a way to build a network of people that are going to tell you the truth.
[00:13:25] And you have to have a culture where you're going to accept that truth and you're going to not just nod your head and go through the motions. And it it sounds so simple because it is simple, but it is so hard to get to that truth. And it is so hard to not just do the easy thing and say, Hey, we did our required check in the block thing. We're good, right? We need to really assess. and if it's not good, You have to stop and figure out a way to make it good. never accept a substandard performance. but the important part of that is I have to empower people and set up an environment where maybe they don't have to be brave to just say, Hey, this is junk, captain. And that's a hard. Culture to establish, right? Because especially for a junior person speaking to very senior people they're not always going to feel comfortable and, maybe they have been in other situations at other commands where that's just the way it is,
[00:14:23] And it's okay that it's not optimal uses of our time. And I've learned that my time is not valuable. And I'm just doing the required thing and it's okay if they're wasting my time. That is unsatisfactory for every high performance organization.
[00:14:38] And we have to stop that. we have to build a culture where people are going to tell us that, Hey boss, you're wasting our time. and not in a salty way, right? If you establish the culture correctly we can have that win like we talk about in the book, right? For where everybody's going to be successful there.
[00:14:54] Harry Cohen: So what I just heard, and I'm excited about talking about this podcast to other people. What did you learn in your conversation with the nuclear submarine commander? That little nugget. which is I've been in many meetings where I tolerate, this seems like BS.
[00:15:10] This seems like people are checking the box and going through the motions and nobody's really engaged. And now I'm going to speak up myself literally calling it out with my own courage and bravery to say feels a little BSE to me in a respectful way not in any other way.
[00:15:34] So I think that's the one nugget I just got. Thank you, Adam.
[00:15:38] Connie Fontaine: Yeah. I was curious, Adam, if there's anything specifically you can remember that you were purposefully trying to bring trust to your team that they would speak up, that they would feel comfortable, not just with you, but with others in that same way.
[00:15:52] Adam Kahnke: Yeah. my command triad was really important to me. And I had a great one on the Arkansas. They were amazing leaders and they really helped me here.
[00:15:59] They were fully on board with my plan to make sure that we're not wasting people's time and that we're making sure that every minute counts. And the more technical, the organization and the more technical thing you do, if we're wasting people's time in meetings, it can not just be disrespectful, but it can be downright dangerous, right?
[00:16:18] Because you're not doing what you need to be doing. You're not learning what you need to be learning and no one's engaged. if we're not careful, they're just going through the motions and not getting it done.
[00:16:28] And I want to do a little aside here. So it spoke to me when I saw that, the heliotropic effect. I remember back in, I think it was sixth grade science class when my teacher had me put, bean sprouts in a locker and everybody else had them too, right?
[00:16:43] So we planted bean sprouts and I was really impressed because mine were in the dark and they grew really fast. So the first couple of days, my, my bean sprouts were kicking everybody else's bean sprouts tail in. And so I was pretty excited about that. But then, in the long term, they were not healthy and they couldn't stand on their own and they broke and everybody else's were much shorter, but they were healthy.
[00:17:06] And they, and that's where I first probably learned about the heliotropic effect. and I guess the analogy here is you can always get short term gains by doing things like coming in there and getting, solving a problem in the short term.
[00:17:21] But we really gotta look at the long term effects of everything that we do, right?
[00:17:28] Lessons from Admiral Rickover
[00:17:28] Harry Cohen: love it. When you brought the heliotropic style of leadership to your team, did they get it at first? And it was an immediate duck to water moment, or was there some conversation and or metabolizing of the material?
[00:17:48] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, that's an interesting question. So I brought it into my wardroom and we had a discussion about Admiral Rickover and his leadership style. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Admiral Rickover, but
[00:18:00] Connie Fontaine: he is the founder of the nuclear Navy. He is the one who decided as a young officer that, Hey, we're going to go take nuclear power and we're gonna take the advantages of that. Put it on a small form factor, get it on a submarine and get it underway. And that whole, from the creation of the idea to getting it launched and put on a submarine It was amazingly fast.
[00:18:25] Adam Kahnke: It was the, we're talking the sixties when all this was happening. And it took about five years from my idea to having a submarine in the water operating underway on nuclear power, which is just amazing, right? So when you think about what it takes to build the submarine nowadays, there's a lot of complexity but it was amazing what Admiral Rickover got done. But the amazing part of it is we were also very safe.
[00:18:49] So we took this amazing technology. And we also controlled the regulation of how we were doing that so it was safe. And he built a lasting legacy of a process that kept self regulation from inside the Navy through the Department of Energy. And today, that same model is being used to make sure that we are Operating our reactors safely and effectively.
[00:19:16] But there's a lot of folklore associated with Admiral Rickover. Every single individual that came into his program, he personally interviewed to make sure that they had the right mentality and the right level of knowledge and the capacity to be a nuclear submarine sailors. So some of those interviews were really really interesting and eye opening.
[00:19:38] And, he had a reputation. he was very blunt about every single thing and gave it to you exactly how it was. And that was not, sometimes he maybe didn't spare the salt. Let's just say that in his reputation.
[00:19:51] And he is amazingly successful. And I don't want to detract from anything that Admiral did because we got so much benefit out of everything there, but the discussion in the wardroom was: Hey team, what can we do To enhance our culture and still be high performing teams in the nuclear Navy.
[00:20:11] Harry Cohen: Or maybe they did, but assume they didn't
[00:20:14] Adam Kahnke: And I know We don't give ourselves positive praise for what we're doing ever. We mainly just spend our time to be effective and efficient, looking at the problems and getting after the problems and being honest about the problems and not a whole lot of time patting ourselves on the back for the things that we're doing well and it's just part of the culture
[00:20:33] How can we maybe do it differently without ever jeopardizing any of the safety or changing the nuclear, high standards. So I think that same conversation probably applies to any high performing team in corporate America today or in the military anywhere.
[00:20:49] Like how can we be demanding, but non-salty leaders to our people. And now after demonstrating some of that and living through that, I think it's the right way to do business because I think you're going to get much higher performance if you fully engage and get everybody to buy in and all too often I see people checking out and saying, Hey, this is not a fun place to be and I'm not going to give, 110 percent here.
[00:21:17] I'm going to do what I need to do. And then I'm getting out of the way and I'm going home. I will say that submarine sailors are some of the hardest performing and, most dedicated people in the military that I've ever met. And I'm so proud to be part of the submarine force but still, I do see sometimes people, especially in the nuclear world feeling Hey, this just is, this is too much like it never ends.
[00:21:40] And it's so demanding. And I'm not talking about lowering the standard in any way, shape or form. I'm really talking about things like, with the training, making sure I'm effectively utilizing all my people and effectively utilizing all of our combined time and energy and effort so that we are maximizing our performance.
[00:22:00] if a lot of leaders took time to really evaluate some of the culture to make sure that we are Not overly salty, we're going to get more engagement and better leadership and better engagement from the whole team. If that makes
[00:22:15] Harry Cohen: It makes complete sense. Go ahead, Con. Go ahead.
[00:22:18] Building Culture with a Longterm Vision
[00:22:18] Connie Fontaine: No, I just, I was listening to the what, what must have been a fun evolution on your team and your crew. What, is there a story, can you think of an example of somebody that you turned around and real and had them realize? Yup. You can be a high performer and still be kind and thoughtful
[00:22:34] Adam Kahnke: Yeah. I didn't really have to, since we started from the ground up, I didn't have any super salty people, but I did have a lot of changes in perspective, right? I will tell you, my XO was a pretty, Requirements driven individual is how he described it when he talked to me and a high performing leader, but he's like, Hey, I never really thought about it too much from the from the touchy feely, take care of our people side of it.
[00:23:02] It was more What's the most effective and best way to quickly get this result. Butsometimes when you come in for example, if I was to inherit a boat that was struggling in areas that we were not allowed to struggle in, areas that were absolutely paramount that we perform effectively.
[00:23:18] If I came into the boat and the team wasn't ready to execute, and I only had a limited amount of time, there is tons of pressure to do whatever it takes to make that team perform better. And sometimes that's I'm going to chew everybody's butt and we're staying late and we're going to work hard and we're going to get it done, whatever it takes.
[00:23:38] And that works sometimes in the short term and sometimes it's required. Like you have to meet the standard when you are put in that spot or else. So you have to figure it out. And sometimes in the short term, there's only one way to get there. In the long term. That's not sustainable, right?
[00:23:58] So you can't operate like that. And if you are operating effectively in the longterm, you won't ever have to do that short term corrective action type thing where everybody's feeling the pain, if that makes sense.
[00:24:14] Connie Fontaine: No, it
[00:24:14] Harry Cohen: Does, did the XO change? He came in with a,
[00:24:18] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, the XO told me that he changed his perspective. I will tell you he was a high performing guy even before, and I think he's even more high performing and more ready to get into command because I don't think he's, I think he's going to be much more effective in the long term. He was always effective in the short term. I would serve with XO every day, any day of the week. And I hope to God that Navy's listening to me on that
[00:24:42] front because he's going to make a heck of a commanding officer one day.
[00:24:46] Connie Fontaine: you helped him grow into that, too. Which is great.
[00:24:49] Harry Cohen: Yeah, the simple articulation of how you helped him grow to be a better leader is you helped him see you can get to point A and point B by attending to the touchy feely stuff for lack of another expression and make sure that people are feeling emotionally engaged, listened to, respected, honored, treated well, and still high standards accomplished the task at hand.
[00:25:18] I'm summarizing what you said, but I'm basically saying that without paying attention to the touchy feely, he wouldn't have been as effective.
[00:25:25] Connie Fontaine: I think what Adam also said was he was already good, and I think that's one of the things we talk about a lot is we're all inherently good, most of us. It's those little changes and those tweaks that make us better. And so it's the little things we do for people, our family, our co workers that make a big difference and take us from good leaders to great leaders.
[00:25:43] Harry Cohen: And frankly, Connie, that's what I want, Adam, if you could speak to some more of insights that you have learned that we can pass on to say, I used to, but now I? we're all on journeys of learning to be better. And the more we can. Pass those on from our own experience. Maybe somebody's going to go, you know what? I got something from that nuclear submarine commander.
[00:26:12] Mission Critical: Assuming Positive Intent and Effective Listening
[00:26:12] Adam Kahnke: Oh
[00:26:12] yeah. Hey, assuming positive intent. That's such an important concept that is so easy, but it is so easy to overlook, right? I think human nature has it, so we're always assuming that everybody's an idiot. But if you think about it a little bit harder, people are not dumb, right? They're coming from the same spot that you are usually.
[00:26:34] And they usually have good points and maybe it's not clearly communicated, but I'm pretty sure that they had a positive intent when they brought up the fact that, Hey, this is an issue or they're trying to get your attention. And it's just so easy to not assume positive intent off the get go. And I think it's such an important thing to do.
[00:26:52] Harry Cohen: and I love that you brought it up. It was, it's a very difficult one because Cutting people some slack. I heard this expression. Giving grace is such a good practice, which is just give them grace. Know that they didn't mean it
[00:27:08] Or maybe they did, but assume they didn't
[00:27:11] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, another important part of leadership is know your people and get out there and be a good listener, right? That's something that I read about here, which is pretty important. And I'll tell you, I'm not always the best listener because I like to be efficient, right?
[00:27:27] So sometimes I'll be on my computer and somebody will come in and talk to me. And I have a bad habit of continuing to work on that email or, not stopping and giving full attention. And it's a really bad habit. I do, I have lots of bad habits, but this is one, I'm really working on to try to get better every day
[00:27:45] Harry Cohen: good. That's a great one.
[00:27:47] Adam Kahnke: yeah.
[00:27:47] Giving people that full attention and even better than, stopping to look at my email. Getting off my butt and walking out and go to where they are and instead of waiting for people to come to me, go out and get out around and talk to people and just have conversations so that I'm available.
[00:28:04] And every leader can do that. it's so easy to think that, Hey, I'm too busy to do this, but it'll, it grows your time and effectiveness by getting out there and showing that you are receptive and you're a real person and you are easy to talk to. I can't tell you how many situations where I saved myself time because people felt free to come and share their problems with me before they became big problems that took my time.
[00:28:31] I could, get after it in a much more effective manner before it got out of control. If that,
[00:28:37] Harry Cohen: Oh, yeah, it makes total sense. I've always said that, you can't listen efficiently. It's an oxymoron. You got any techniques for faster listening? No, walk down, get your, get off your butt and go do what Adam just did. That's an, that's a takeaway. All of us could do a better job.
[00:28:59] Introducing a Book of Soft Skills to the Military
[00:28:59] Harry Cohen: When you brought the book to your team, did they think it was silly?
[00:29:06] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, probably. At first, I think everybody thought it was silly. And probably by the time I left, there were maybe only one or two that still think it's silly. But I left the book and definitely gave opportunities and gave some orders to try to be better and get after it. And, do a little bit of good every day.
[00:29:24] Work on it just a little bit every day. And that's another important point, I think, is just like a New Year's resolution. if you're not doing something specific to get better, you're not going to get better.
[00:29:37] It's I want to work out more. That's not going to work unless you put it on your calendar to go to the gym and you have a plan and you go execute that plan. The same thing can be said with changing your culture and trying to, be the sun. You gotta have a plan to do that.
[00:29:52] And one of the ways to have the plan is start looking through this book and going down the steps and trying to figure out, hey, I'm going to specifically do this one thing on this day in this one way. And then you go execute it. And if you can plan to do a little bit more of that, I think it's going to be super helpful and save you time and make you more effective.
[00:30:13] Harry Cohen: You sound like one of our, thank you, Connie. I just love, I love that you are, literally saying what we say and try to do. Since we had a podcast guest Brigadier General Kathy White, January one, she reads one chapter a day and sends out a note to her team. Do you know what day it is? It's April 11th.
[00:30:34] April 11th is learn to walk away chapter 11. I started doing that because she did it and I wrote the book, Adam. I'm just saying that. It's the same point you're making, which is how do I use this? I try and read a chapter a day and apply it today. And I love that again, what I call, the most seasoned and impressive leaders, a commander of a nuclear submarine with his, Troops uses this soft stuff in a way that makes him more effective.
[00:31:12] That's what I believe. People will tune in and say, I could get off my butt and go listen to my people. How's just that every day, if people did that, get off there, but it
[00:31:22] just, yeah, go ahead.
[00:31:24] Connie Fontaine: people have told us just to say good morning, just to, because many of us are busy. We think we're being efficient. And so we marched to our office and don't make eye contact and just say good morning to each person. That alone does it, you, you talked about his troops.
[00:31:37] Applying Leadership Lessons at Home
[00:31:37] Connie Fontaine: I think you've got a big troop at home too. I'm curious, has the conversation around heliotropic behaviors, has that made it to your home yet? Yeah.
[00:31:46] Adam Kahnke: Yeah we're working on it a little bit every day. So I have six kids and an amazing wife that is really the magic behind the scenes that has raised my kids through multiple moves and multiple environments. And just makes things happen when I'm gone. And she has to be pretty self reliant and pretty capable to do that every day.
[00:32:05] And she does an amazing job. And she would tell you that I could use a little more heliotropic, a little more sun at home. It wouldn't hurt. I
[00:32:13] don't, I learned.
[00:32:14] I learned.
[00:32:15] Connie Fontaine: Now your wife
[00:32:16] Adam Kahnke: I learned early on to not speak for my wife.
[00:32:19] I usually get it wrong, right? So she's the one that has to answer this question. So I do. I do and have been trying to bring that to my home more and more, but it's sometimes a struggle. Same thing, right?
[00:32:33] But, because I have such a close affinity to my children and don't want them to fail no matter what, and no one does with their children, sometimes it can be challenging, even more challenging than at work to to Let go and allow allow people to learn their lessons by themselves,
[00:32:50] Harry Cohen: So that last point to let go. Yeah, that last point is such a powerful reminder for all parents whose kids at whatever stage from two year old falling, skinning their knee to way later in life. Falling and skinning their knee to your point about we got to let go and let them fail that, how do we be a good parent leader role model?
[00:33:18] What we want the best for them and from them. And I don't know. I keep trying to be a better dad of 32 year olds. To be a good influence and role model while guiding directing and letting them learn the hard way. I suspect you do too. Six kids is six different worlds.
[00:33:40] Connie Fontaine: Yeah.
[00:33:40] Adam Kahnke: I think my strategy on being a good father, the thing that I try to do every day is to be a good example. And I think that's a lot, right? some people Don't appreciate that. That's important, right? being a good example goes a long way and I don't think people realize, and I don't realize it until my kids leave the house and they're gone and they call me and bring that up.
[00:34:02] Connie Fontaine: Know what you already did as a good example, I asked about being heliotropic at home and I just meant everybody had you talked about it, but you pointed the finger at yourself and you talked about how you want to be better and how you work at it. So I think you set a pretty good example for your kids right there.
[00:34:16] Yeah.
[00:34:18] Harry Cohen: point, why did we choose Adam? We chose Adam for the way he behaved With me and with Ashley, our producer, Perfect Strangers, we met at this conference, but he was incredibly respectful and kind and thoughtful.
[00:34:37] One of the criteria we use to choose people to be on this podcast is that they are exemplars. We use that term to describe people who are good people, who give off a vibe of, I want to be around that person. I want to be like that person. I can learn from that person. They are heliotropic, as you say, good role models.
[00:35:01] We strive to be around and be those people. And you are that Adam, you have been successful in making us feel like what a good soul. Now your accomplishments professionally are impressive as well, but your humanity. The way you treat perfect strangers is as impressive to us, and that's that role model thing
[00:35:28] The Wise Warrior Mentality
[00:35:28] Connie Fontaine: you told me something about the conversation with Adam that was really, that was much more about the military and maybe the Navy in general about leadership and the, I don't know, push or drive to go towards more, was it wise warriors, something like that? Yes,
[00:35:44] Harry Cohen: there's
[00:35:45] an effort to create the wise warrior mentality, not just the warrior mentality and Adam,
[00:35:53] you really are a student of that and embody that. Could you speak to some of that?
[00:36:00] Resiliency and Mental Health in the Military
[00:36:00] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, I think, Something we've been working on a lot in the submarine forces is resiliency, right? So I joined the Navy, And I wasn't the best high school student, right? So I joined in 1993. I was more focused on other things than academics in school, even though I really liked computers and I really liked science and I really liked engineering.
[00:36:24] This is, at the early stages of the internet, but I didn't put that same focus into academics because I couldn't see the link between the time I spent in class and the stuff that I was interested in. This is a personal story but To me, failing a test in school really wasn't that big a deal, right?
[00:36:42] And I was okay with that, which is not a great place to be, but it's a very different thing to go from somebody who has failed things in the past.
[00:36:53] And for me, I failed my way to success, right? I learned the hard way how to do things by getting there, getting almost there and then up in my game a little bit until I got to victory. Some people come in and from a different mentality where they are just really good, right? They have been raised in an environment where they were performing at a really high level. They had lots of experience and they haven't been put in lots of positions where they had that chance to fail and fail again, to get to success, right? They just have not ever been pushed to that level because they're just that high performer, right?
[00:37:28] And then when those people, sometimes when they fail for the first time, it is such a big deal. And I think that important point I'm trying to make here is there are very different People that have different life experiences and we have to be sensitive to all of them, right? Where some people, if you watch them fail, you don't know what's going to happen, right?
[00:37:49] They might really take it hard. Whereas other people, they might fail and be like, Oh, what big deal. I've failed lots of my life. I'll just, hunker down and figure out how to do it better next time. So resiliency, I think is different for different people. For, for me. I might be more resilient in that failure category where some people might have much bigger struggle, if that makes sense.
[00:38:12] Harry Cohen: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Adam Kahnke: And I guess I'm just speaking to the it's different for everybody and we have to be sensitive to different types of people and what we define as resiliency is important, but there's not a one size fits all model that's going to apply to every human.
[00:38:28] Connie Fontaine: It's true.
[00:38:29] Adam Kahnke: So we have struggled with mental health in the military a little bit, and we're trying to figure out the right balance between people asking for help. And, in the submarine force, It's a voluntary force when you first join the military, but once you enlist, you don't have the choice to just not come to work, right?
[00:38:51] You don't have the choice to not be there, and we go away from our home port, and the stresses are large, and we work really hard, and sometimes that work life balance can get all screwed up, and when you come back, Trying to put some of that stuff back together after the work life balance went sideways.
[00:39:12] You need help, right? So we're trying to figure out the right way to provide people that help and the ability to take a knee so when I first joined the submarine force, I feel like we tried to find people's weaknesses and poke at them this wasn't ever said, but I feel like the culture was more a, Hey, we get resiliency by finding the weak links and making them expose theirself and getting them to crack.
[00:39:36] And then they're gone. And then we don't have to deal with that anymore. And everybody that's left over are these really resilient, strong people. That's 30 years ago. That's old, wooden submarines back in the day. It's not like that anymore. We are a million times more evolved and way better, but still, right?
[00:39:55] We struggle to recruit people. We get high quality talent and I need to make sure that we maintain that talent and that we arekeeping them on board and helping people. One, become resilient and continue to be there. so instead of hiding your weaknesses and keeping it from everybody, I need somebody to say, Hey boss, I need some help.
[00:40:16] And I need to be sure that we have that help available when people raise their hand and need it and get back in the fight fast. Right. And if we can prove to everybody that we're there for them and there is that opportunity to get help when you need it, they're going to bring it up before it becomes a crisis.
[00:40:29] And they're going to get help in a preventative way instead of waiting until it's too late and they can no longer support the mission Everybody has that happen in their life. Everybody needs support every once in a while and being able to raise your hand and say, Hey, I need something today.
[00:40:45] I just can't be there. And, having a command element and triad that supports that mentality is very important.
[00:40:53] Harry Cohen: Boy, do I, I love what you said. And I love how crisp and clear you were to create a culture where leadership encourages, supports, and reinforces and applauds, Hey boss, I need to take a knee boss says, I love that you can tell me that. We want you in the fight. We want you healthy. What do you need?
[00:41:17] Let's get you the help you need. I love that you said that. And I know that it's an ongoing journey for every organization, the military as well. Nice that you put it so clearly.
[00:41:29] Connie Fontaine: I love that we can shine a light on the fact that even where stereotypically, people would not expect that kind of discussion to happen on a nuclear submarine, the fact that it is, I'm glad that we can tell people that.
[00:41:40] Adam Kahnke: Yeah. I think that Navy is really forward leaning in that now and making sure that we are driving that culture throughout the entire force, which is, it's great to see. Unfortunately, sometimes we learn that the hard way and sometimes, even in myself I'll find myself, I think COVID taught us all a little bit of lesson about, Hey, sometimes we get sick and it's not always the best to power through.
[00:42:02] There are reasons why you need to not be present sometimes. And that's hard when the manpower on any organization is set up to be efficient, you don't have a lot of excess capability, just sitting there waiting for somebody to not be there. So you got to figure out how to run your organization with that mentality.
[00:42:20] And if it's not built into the culture you're going to struggle when things come up.
[00:42:25] Connie Fontaine: Yeah. And if I could say if a commander of a nuclear sub can do it, so can the leader of an organization that's maybe not as sophisticated in terms of what's gotta happen every day with each person.
[00:42:36] Leadership Training vs. Real-Life Applications
[00:42:36] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, so I got an MBA in defense financial management from Navy postgraduate school in Monterey. And I sat through the leadership classes there, which were pretty good, but I found it like, this is so simple. When you go do leadership out of a book, it's so simple. And it, why am I sitting through this book?
[00:42:55] Everybody knows the answer when you read it out of a book and I find it hard to describe why leadership is so easy when you read about it and so hard when you go to do it in real life, right? When you have real people that you're making those decisions with, I'm like, wow, the textbook answer is so easy, but now I have real people with real things going on with real mitigations that I try to understand and comprehend and, see it from everybody's point of view.
[00:43:19] And it really makes this thing really complex. The one thing I do want to say is. Trying to make yourself a better person is simple, right? It's not hard - you can take that textbook stuff and you're never going to get to perfection because like I said, real leadership is hard.
[00:43:38] And you're going to fail at some things and it's not going to be as easy in that leadership class that you took, where it was a no brainer and there was A 4. 0 answer. That was pretty easy to get to. It's never that way in real life. It's always more complex, but taking some of that time and just making the little changes starts moving you in the right direction.
[00:43:59] And I'll tell you, I wasn't always like that. I think in part of my career, where I was a young Lieutenant, I had a much different approach and it was more, my job is to be unfiltered and I'm going to go find every problem and I'm going to point them out and I'm going to go fix them all.
[00:44:16] And it's important to not let problems pass you by because, you gotta have high standards, but I'll tell you how you go about doing that is as important as pointing out all the problems and making sure you're not letting them go past you.
[00:44:31] Harry Cohen: And that last point is incredible, say it again, it's how you go about doing it. It's not avoiding problems. It's having high standards, but how you go about doing that is the, mic drop moment for me as a practitioner, a learner, a student of leadership or life conduct back to your comment about being a role model.
[00:44:57] How do I go about fixing any problem that I see the conversation that I'm having? How do I make that other person feel? During and after the conversation. I think that's what you are saying. That everybody can get better at. Keep it simple.
[00:45:16] Connie Fontaine: Yeah.
[00:45:16] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, I also think I'm not going to win everybody over and that's not the goal, right? It's but if I can get somebody to truly believe that what we're doing is the right thing and the way we're doing it is the right way to do it they're going to have a different perspective when they go to do that job every day.
[00:45:33] And I think that's an important part of, why bother? Making that message come across so that they believe it and they fully appreciate where it's coming from, which might take a little more time and it might take a little more thought to think about how am I going to approach this problem with this individual based on what I know about them?
[00:45:50] There, there's a time and a place, but I think that effort, it pays dividends.
[00:45:55] Harry Cohen: Love it. What are you going to do now? What's next in your career, Adam?
[00:46:00] Adam Kahnke: Right now I'm working on as a staff officer in the Pentagon. Very different perspective than you being in command of a submarine crew, but it is equally rewarding and equally challenging to try to make things move at the top part of the pyramid, so a lot of interesting things going on in the world this day and age,
[00:46:18] Harry Cohen:
[00:46:18] in your current job in the Pentagon? Are you able to be more effective? In accomplishing the missions that you are involved in the way that you get stuff done with this mindset?
[00:46:34] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, 100%. Everything, getting stuff done is just about interacting with people and learning from people and getting them to do things with you. So it goes a long way just to say hi to people and introduce yourself and to learn and be vulnerable and not be like, Hey, I know everything and you're doing this wrong.
[00:46:55] But Hey, I need assistance. And I'mI'm trying to move this mountain, right? Can you help me try to understand how big it is and how far we need to move it? Just the approach that you take is vitally important to your effectiveness If that makes sense.
[00:47:08] Harry Cohen: it makes perfect sense. This is what we're trying to spread to the world. That being more heliotropic in our day to day moment to moment interactions in every single context and situation is going to make us more effective. And more satisfied and everybody wins. This is why I never get tired of practicing this, talking about this, articulating this, having other people articulate this the way you just described your work in the Pentagon is how do you be a heliotropic effective wise warrior and moving mountains?
[00:47:43] You say good morning,
[00:47:45] Ask somebody how they're doing and wait for the answer. It's the kind of things that didn't your mother already teach you this? Yes. I think we could do it better.
[00:47:55] Connie Fontaine: just asking the questions. I see that as new people come into roles when they ask questions instead of just make that assumption. I think we've all been at that stage of that young lieutenant you were describing yourself as that, you get, you see yourself wide eyed and you have, you want to fix everything.
[00:48:09] And instead, if you don't, if you don't do it the right way and say it the right way, It's never the right way,
[00:48:14] Adam Kahnke: That's a
[00:48:15] Harry Cohen: that the truth? That's a fact.
[00:48:17] Connie Fontaine: And I think Harry, you and I talked a little bit about this just even recently is the, how we say it sometimes is harder, whether it's our adult children, our spouse and I think some of the lessons that you've just shared, I think play for all of us and we practice it every day and it's hard work every day.
[00:48:33] Harry Cohen: Thank you for saying that Connie, but I want to just underline one more time, this quest to be a better person you don't have to learn a new language.
[00:48:42] You just have to pay attention to the tiniest ways that you can be a smidgen better role model. I was not concerned, but a little bit wondering whether this soft, squishy, simple concept would resonate with a hard warrior.
[00:49:05] I think we've seen it from a brigadier general that we had previously to a coach.it kind of transcends from teachers, to parents, but sometimes it's hard to hear the message because they think it's soft stuff and not common sense.
[00:49:18] Yeah
[00:49:19] Simple Steps to Effective Leadership
[00:49:19] Adam Kahnke: One of the other points, Connie and Harry, to point out is, and this might be simple I thought it was something extra I had to do in addition to being a capable, competent, technical leader, right? There's something else I got to go do that's like a separate thing. Once I figured out that, hey, being, a little more thoughtful and better person makes me a more competent leader by itself, because I really start to understand the problems because people bring them to me. And they're more receptive to the corrective actions that I suggest, because they realize that, Hey, we're doing this, not just for a good technical reason, but that guy seems like he's a pretty, somebody I might want to listen to.
[00:50:02] So I'll throw out there that it's not something extra. It's the same thing, right? It's just being. Effective. And if you want to be more effective, just being a more heliotropic person is a great way to get there.
[00:50:17] Harry Cohen: It's not something extra. You have to do six more items needed to do list, but a helpful way to remind yourself you'll be more effective in your relationships at home and at work, if you do these little things, which you already do. you don't have to be a different person.
[00:50:33] You just have to be a better version of yourself more frequently, deliberately
[00:50:37] Adam Kahnke: And I'd like to share that with others too. So thanks for bringing this book to my attention and this philosophy to my attention, and I appreciate it and trying to spread it out where I
[00:50:46] Connie Fontaine: Yeah you already have,
[00:50:47] Harry Cohen: exactly. So Adam, is the nuclear submarine commander and brilliant, wonderful human being and father of six that you are and good husband.
[00:50:58] You get the final word.
[00:51:00] Adam Kahnke: Yeah, I'll do my best here, Harry. Thanks. I will say, guys, it's take the time. It's worth it, and it's simple, right? Just go do it, right? Just read the book, take a couple of these, and make a deliberate plan. To go try to make it a part of your life and to make yourself a more effective and efficient leader especially if you're leading technical people, right?
[00:51:21] it is important. it's worth your time. it's simple. And you'll be happy about it.
[00:51:25] Harry Cohen: Thank you,
[00:51:26] Adam Kahnke: the
[00:51:26] Connie Fontaine: and I think
[00:51:26] Adam Kahnke: to give that message.
[00:51:28] Harry Cohen: I love
[00:51:29] Connie Fontaine: it
[00:51:29] It was so fun talking to you about this. And again, thank you for your service. Thank you for your wife's service, your family. We so appreciate everything that you've you've given us.
[00:51:38] Harry Cohen: absolutely.
[00:51:39] Adam Kahnke: Thanks so much, Connie.
[00:51:40] Harry Cohen: Love it, man. So Adam, once again thank you so much for what you've given us on this podcast and in your life of service and what you're going to continue to do. Thank you. And we will see you hopefully next time another time. Goodbye, my friend.
[00:51:57] Connie Fontaine: Bye. Thank you.
[00:51:58] Adam Kahnke: Goodbye guys. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.
[00:52:01] Connie Fontaine: It was fun.