Litter Management with Dr. Scott McKenzie

On this episode Dr. Scott McKenzie joins me and we discuss all things poultry litter management, with a fairly significant focus on ammonia control and pathogen reduction.  

Transcript

Podcast Transcript: Litter Management

Dr. Zac Williams: Welcome to the Fowl Frontier, Poultry Science Unplucked. On this show, we're going to break down the intricate world of all things poultry science. So join myself and my distinguished guests and experts in the field as we dissect the latest research and information on poultry production. Whether you raise broilers, turkeys, laying hens, breeders, ducks, etc. Are a seasoned producer or just starting out, we've got you covered. The Fowl Frontier is brought to you by the University of Arkansas System Division of Agriculture, Cooperative Extension Service, and the Center of Excellence for Poultry Science. I am Dr. Zac Williams, poultry extension specialist for live production at the university, and I will be your host. So as one egg said to the other, let's get cracking. Alright, welcome everyone, welcome to the show. My guest today is Dr. Scott McKenzie. And our topic today is always pertinent, always relevant. We're gonna talk about litter management. And I'm gonna let Dr. McKenzie give his own background and introduction.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, thanks, Zac. Glad to be on the show again with you. Yeah, I'm a toxicologist by training. So I sort of live in the balanced world between chemistry and biology. Been working with poultry for over 20 years. You know, on the sort of invention and innovation and product sort of advice side technical services really focused on disinfection, decontamination, detoxification, food air, water surfaces, and the gastrointestinal loom. And so I play outside the immune system, hopefully can be a help to the veterinary and public health side of this business and poultry health side, you know, outside of, you know, vaccines and antibiotics. So I'm sort of, how we kill the bad bugs without the drug side. So.

Dr. Zac Williams: Gotcha. And Dr. McKenzie, you are a repeat offender here on the show. I think you're the first one I've had just come back. So, I don't know what that says about me, you're the show, but I'm always glad to have you back. Last time was a very good episode. So, like I said, we're gonna get into some litter management. And my first question I want for you, why do we care? Why is litter management important?

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Well, I think Zac, you know, a number of reasons and most folks in poultry can agree, you know, we look at all the different factors of setting out up that chick up for success, setting that poult up for success. And really, you know, even in the floor layer type business, We're looking at, you know, after we move birds in, they need the best start they can get. And so I think litter management represents, you know, a time commitment, but that time commitment pays back in spades. And certainly for growers in complex of experienced challenges getting folks to do proper litter management. And then what they see in the results from a mortality and performance perspective, I think it's a clear winner on the top list of things to get done between flocks. And it's so much so that it's outlined pretty specifically in best management practices and those contracts. And so we're always looking to help and give the why of why litter management is such a good idea and to commit to doing it every time consistently.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yep, that was some of my professors when I was at Auburn, working on PhD, they came up with this quote that says, so goes the litter, so goes the flock. And I think that's very true. That good quality litter, more than likely you're gonna end up with a good quality flock, bad quality litter, mismanaged litter, your flock's not gonna perform the way it should.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: That's right, that's right. It's all about the details, Zac. You know, I think, you know, I see this increasingly that, you know, litter management is probably the most time consuming and it really takes, you know, a little cautious eye to do it. I think a lot of times it's done really fairly close to when the, you know, new birds are coming. And I think that creates this whole downstream domino effect of, oh heck, I'm out of time. I got to get this. I got to get that and so then you start making compromises. Where do I take the shortcuts and you know that that can be tough but then it can be the opposite, Zac right? So if you're you've decaged and you're going to pulverize or do something to get that uniformity there you can overdo pulverizing right? You don't want those coffee grounds you know but you also can't miss the corners with cake so there's a fine line in getting it done right if you push yourself with time for growers has kind of placed litter management towards the end and there's going to be down to minutes or hours before the applicator comes to apply a litter amendment man you're you're already probably making compromises do you know what I'm saying I do I do a lot of times they'll ask like well when does litter management start or when should I start I'm like man as soon as those those birds get out, you get to work on that litter. Like don't put it off, don't waste, don't wait to the end. We've got a lot of automation in our poultry growers or farms or houses, everything's making stuff faster. That litter management, it really has not sped up. We've not a whole lot of automation in it yet.

Dr. Zac Williams: No, that's right.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: It still takes about the same amount of time as it did years and years ago. I think that the custom applicator has changed the game for the broiler industry though. It's created that continuity of, you know, flock after flock, you know, the accuracy of the chemistry being applied. I mean, that has really helped, but you know, the equipment to, again, to, to, to de-cake and those tractor implements to go in and pulverize if your farm is big enough to afford those, you know, those are, those are all key pieces. It's up to the grower, right? and manage, but it's the Goldilocks principles. Not too little, not too much, just right. And I think it's important. The other thing too, I think, and we talked about good quality, but enough, right? So it's four inches enough? Probably not. Somehow I hear that number is the median. I think six inches is kind of that best target for a minimum depth. getting it flat throughout the house, uniform throughout the house, get those drinkers and feeders level. All this is important. It's a physics problem that you're solving. It's a chemistry problem that you're solving with ammonia control, right? And then it's a pathogen problem, you're solving disease mitigation to help. I mean, these new birds coming into these houses, their immune system has been asked to do a lot with the vaccination that's happened, that they're coming from a hatchery, you know, maybe, you know, if you're in the turkey business, you're moving poults from a brooder to a grow out, all these situations and vaccine is a part of that too. But, you know, they're just hatched, they've had a lot to do from the immune system, setting those chicks up for a good start by having good, the right dryness, you know, good dried litter, not too fine, not too coarse, decaked, flat with good ammonia control there is a great way to start the birds and it should pay off in the end. So. Yep. I agree. And that's kind of a good lead in for our next question. And you alluded to some of these in the end, but maybe let's be a little more specific. Um, what attributes would you say, um, or qualities or you, would you attribute to like good quality litter, like good quality litter is going to have these characteristics? What are you looking for? I'm looking for six inches depth. I'm looking for uniform depth across, not having a litter on top of a wet pad. And so, what does that, what did that take, what did it look like under those water lines before you went in a process of litter? Do you have a leaky, either cup or nipple drinker situation going on? That to me is the first thing to fix. and I'll go on a little soapbox here. You know, I know there's a lot of waterline cleaners and waterline descalers, and really I'm talking more about the descaling low pH waterline products, but their use in this industry has gone down quite a bit over the last 10 to 15 years. Again, it takes work, right? It's like, how many hours? What's my out time? What am I gonna get done? How am I gonna prioritize that? but scale and certainly biofilm growth, all these things lead to that nipple not seeding properly. If you're getting leaks down there, or let's say your litter isn't flattened properly through the whole house, you've got your drinker heights that are variable and that extra spillage that happens is already adding to a whole lot of moisture that that bird is putting out and has to be removed from that house through ventilation. Then this is later cycle stuff, but wet litter is that key, especially wet spots. I need to go in and look at drinkers while the birds are there. What's going on? And then go replace those, probably do a water line descaling or cleaning program to go in there and set your litter up for success from a moisture perspective. So, I also like to see litter, Zac, that's not too fine. Again, no coffee grounds, maybe nickel, penny sized kind of particles. that insulated property isn't gonna lose itself by having some of those particle sizes mixed in there. It's gonna have good moisture retention while still allowing the air to move around it and continue to remove that moisture as the moisture is being laid down on the litter during grow out. So those are just a couple of things that I like to see. Starting off birds without, at below 25, 22% moisture. You can get that by grabbing it and putting it in your hands, you know, just making sure that in the outtimes you've had at least minimum ventilation going on, so that we're setting up, again, even our litter amendments that we're going to use for ammonia control for success by having the right texture, right thickness, no ammonia bombs, right, those hard pieces of cake that can be deep and, boy, as soon as you heat that brood. Now, now you can't make a litter amendment work in that situation. So I guess those are all kind of things that that I mean the list is like 20 we could go on and on but I think those are key and and you know and moisture I keep harping on that because the pathogen concern right and bacteria specifically you know they don't need much to survive outside the host for a period of time. Out time is important, right, to getting over these these bacterial load humps, especially a poultry pathogen, even even food safety pathogens. So I'll probably talk about moisture for the rest of this time, but I think it's important. Well, I agree that is the key to good litter quality is maintaining your appropriate moisture levels. So we've got, see, go with points, we've got six inches of depth, particle size, you're looking for pinnier nickel. That's the high end on the high end. Just not uniform coffee grounds. Right, right, nothing too fine. You also don't want things, that's right, you also don't want it too large. And then we've got around a 20-ish percent moisture in there, and then we've got a level. We've got a very level from one end of the house the other. Did I kind of hit your high points there? Yeah, I think so. Okay, good deal. All right, so what, let me ask you, is there any materials you prefer over others? You know, I really think that you can do a lot of good on either rice hulls or you know, or on shavings. And those are the two predominant ones throughout the United States. There are parts of the country that have peanut hulls. You know, they're a little sharper, they're a little tougher to start with. I like to see peanut hulls mixed with shavings. I know they're sometimes very cheap compared to shavings, but there's some aspergillus species that really love peanut hulls. There’s some that love shavings, don't get me wrong, improperly dried, you know, wood shavings can be an aspergillus nightmare if they're not dried. And that, I think that contributes to this, you know, what do they call it? New flock or new litter syndrome? Yeah, new litter syndrome where you have some health challenges, pause and respiratory. But I think you can do it if you're doing it properly or even top dress with peanut hulls and you know mix them in, I think it's okay so it's true my cost and availability I don't want to pick on one over the other. No and that's that's what we use here in Arkansas is mostly usually everybody's using a mix of rice of rice holes and shavings just pine shavings. Yeah. Yeah. Alright so give me some keys to proper litter management. Let's think about like ammonia, diseases, welfare, our production parameters. Just give me like the give me the high points. You know, the one that keeps coming back over the past few months is is for ammonia. And this is a key for grower. I think we could talk about chemistry all day long, but really these acidic litter amendments. There's there's a there's a window where they're going to work the best, right? Whether it's sodium sulfate, sulfuric and clay or aluminum sulfate or liquid acid alum, right? Or dry them. You know, these chemistries, if you talk to the manufacturers, there's a key window where those need to be applied for kind of the perfect scenario. And they'll, that the ammonia control that you're going to expect and the longevity to expect it, both at placement and then how far out is that window. If you're doing litter management at the very end, I'm not talking about wind rowing, I'm talking about just standard litter management. If you're just getting it done at four days out, you're not giving that litter time to rest, put the ventilation on and set those up for success. So again, you said it, Zac, get in there early, put your initial decaking, you know, step in there early, go in and do size management, you're pulverizing your grind into your litter, and then let it sit with minimum ventilation. This past summer was several locations where Gro would say, you know, in the summertime or when it's still hot like this in September, I like to go in and work my litter and I close that house up and let it cook. All right. That is not a good idea. Okay, you're never gonna get that temperature high enough like you can in wind rowing. Proper wind rowing does a great job if you do it right and you let it sit for a week or enough days to get that temperature in there and you turn those rows and make, and of course, having the right moisture and temperature, it, when rowing works, but you can't just let the house get hot and let it cook. You're not doing anything. You've got to get that ammonia out of there. So minimum ventilation prior to placement of these acidic litter mimits is important. So setting those up for success is important. For disease management, there's, I'll go back to the moisture scenario. That's important too. And I wanna tie all this pH together, really with the goal being, we need more live birds to go to the plant. Mortality is rough, whether it's three days, seven day, or mid block, or towards the end, some break event, some viral disease, lake flock piling or huddling, you know, this sort of thing that gives you some lake flock breaks, even dermatitis or enteritis from Clostridium. We'll talk about coxie, that's a whole another challenge for another day. But, you know, whatever your mortality of it is, we're thinking about disease, you know, literal amendments can play a key role in that, not just with ammonia. Some of the litters like liquid alum, I know the folks that make A7 talk about adding, and there's some great science, in fact, a patent around adding iodine compounds into the, you know, that liquid alum that's acidic. Or excuse me, halogens like iodine and chlorine, we won't use chlorine for this example, but iodine and worked well in those low pH environments, they're complementary to each other. So, you know, that's important. If you do have a challenge with pathogens, you know, a lot of folks are adding more PLT, more poultry guard, more A7, instead of 25 gallons per thousand, they're putting in 35 gallons per thousand square feet, or even 45 gallons per thousand square feet in the winter time. So there are some things you can do with existing litter amendments for ammonia. There is a cool one that we just launched here at EnviroTech this January for commercial launch. I've been working on it for a couple of years now, but it's called PD2 and it's a peracetic acid product that is actually a precursor of peracetic acid. When it contacts litter, you form and sit you right around within the litter itself, a peracetic acid. But the interesting and probably coolest thing about this product is it forms this peracetic in an outland environment. So, you know, Zac, I'll ask you, what the pH of litter, you know, after you've done decaking and after you've, or after you've went road, you've put it out, after you've, you know, pulverized, the pH of broiler litter, for example, is what? What's your number?

Dr. Zac Williams: I'm around eight to eight and a half.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: That's right.

Dr. Zac Williams: If you've not treated it with like any sort of acid or anything, it's basic. You're eight, eight and a half on average.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Every time, yep.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah, every time. Regardless of moisture, I mean moisture plays a role in how we analyze pH, but for that pH of that litter, it sits around eight and a half. So the conventional litter of them, it's all the acidic ones that we know about, for ammonia control, bring that litter down to, again, depending on how many pounds per thousand you're gonna put somewhere between two pH, two and a half down even one. You know, it really shifts that pH. Well, the peracetic acid granule chemistry that we've launched has actually increases pH. So it's working with the pH that's already there, not so much against it. Doesn't have to overcome that pH hurdle to go down. Now, it's not designed for ammonia control, but it will blow off some of that, I call it easy to get to ammonia. Ammonium, urea, uric acid cycle, that nitrogen that's available to blow off will. So it's not an ammonia mitigate per se, but it can set up that ammonia control, acidic pH chemistry for success. So if you're gonna use something like that, like an alkaline granule PD2 as an example, And you want to do that with plenty of time between that application and the time you apply, PLT, A7, poultry guard, et cetera, and there are similar chemistries. Seven days is the number we want to be at a minimum. 10 days is fine, but at some broiler out times, that's going to be very, very tight. The number I hear is common is like this 12 to 17 day. a short two weeks ago, I was out in California, four days, seven days. So, you know, if you're going to use this, this, this approach best to have an out time that's at least two weeks, then you've got to get in there and get that litter processed. But by taking the pH alkaline two points, let's say from eight and a half to 10 and a half, letting it decay back down over seven days to zero, then the ammonia will stop blowing off. It will have done its chemistry or we're done as pathogen mitigation. It's biocidal effects, you know, one and a half, two log kill on most four gram negatives that we've analyzed. I can share that with anyone who's interested in learning more, but it's, um, you know, once, once that seven days is over, then you can go in and apply your cynic litter amendment to go after ammonia. So you've done some ammonia pretreatment. You've done package and reduction. We've taken the pH up alkaline, then taking it way back down low. You know what hates big pH shifts?

Dr. Scott McKenzie: I do.

Dr. Zac Williams: Pathogens.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah. (laughing)

Dr. Zac Williams: And by the way, viruses don't love that pH shock either. I mean, they're not alive, so it's not quite the same. But they, especially our embolopathogens, some of the respiratory pathogens, metapneumo that we're dealing with now, and similar, they don't love pH, big pH shifts either. So, my theory is that the pH shifting with an alkaline peracetic acid product, Pd2, followed by an acidic ammonia treatment, does that pH shift better ammonia control directly there for pathogen control? It's an interesting one-two punch approach. I think we'll be talking more about that at peak and a couple of the shows coming up. but it's an exciting chemistry, first of its kind. So it blows my mind though, I had a hard time wrapping my head around alkaline peracetic acid, right? It's not intuitive, but that's the beauty about innovation is that if you think differently, think outside the box, like making peracetic alkaline and there, you know, EnviroTech has some intellectual property around that. That's what we do in the chill tanks, right at the processing plant. We actually add alkali to make them to make peracetic acid work better, we'll make it basic. It's just, it's a cool thing to remember, but it's something that's not obvious, so it's, it's, it's noteworthy. Yep. I think you covered diseases and ammonia there. What about welfare? Like, does proper litter management, does it play into bird welfare? and even like the welfare of say like workers that are going to be in those farms. Oh sure, sure you know obviously there's there's welfare tied to numbers right the minimum 20 or 25 ppm I mean that's excuse me maximum that's a maximum amount that's that's allowed and and you know we can easily achieve that most of the broader belt certainly in the summertime you know after after brood right that's that's no problem winter time it gets to be a little bit tougher because ventilation is the key. Ventilation is not just ventilating ammonia, right? It's the water pump. It's getting rid of thousands of gallons of water in that house, right? I mean, it is the water pump that's getting rid of the liquid that's coming out of the chicken that's, you know, some of it spilling on the litter. There's a lot of moisture control that has to happen there. So, you know, welfare and ammonia management, litter management is certainly key, I think too that just proper litter management and its impact on paw quality. The broiler foot is pretty resilient, but not in the first few days. It's still a fairly new tissue. It's not toughened up yet. The keratin layers are not thick enough. So it becomes an issue if you've got wet litter with ammonia that chemistry is just not friendly to the paw. And hey, paws make money. So we need to not just for welfare, there's a financial incentive there. For employees, you know, I think too, and most of your farmers, you know, your growers and farm hands would know that if I want to work in that house, I better have the ammonia controlled. And that's why they really want to do a lot of things last minute after that ammonia control chemistry has gone down if they're not going to turn the fans on. I'm just a big fan of minimum ventilation. But trying to save a nickel to spend a dime is sort of nuts. I think that fans should be on pretty much the whole time during out time to get that ammonia gone and to dry out the litter too. Yep. So question, do you know how much water a broiler will lose to the environment that it consumes percentage-wise? No, I don't know that exact number. I've got-- Give me a ballpark. I've got a-- So, I'm sorry, how much litter, excuse me, how much water-- So how much water a broiler will consume, or how much of the water that a broiler consumes will be lost to the environment? Oh, 70%, it's a high number.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, the number I've always seen thrown about is about 70%. And I think that's, whenever I tell a grower that, most times it's a little shocking to them. I'm like, you think about, 'cause they can monitor water consumption. I'm like, all right, how many gallons they consume a day? And I was like, all right, well 70-ish percent of that is going right into your house.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah. It's not all going to meat, muscle, and bone, feathers and beaks and feet, right? It's got to go somewhere. And that's the whole pump that the kidneys, the purpose of the kidneys, right? It's to clean the blood and it has to be diluted. The waste, you know, the waste, chemistries have to get out of the bird. And it does so through liquid, well, you know, a lot through liquid and clean the blood and exploration, and write what comes out through breathing.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah.

Dr. Zac Williams: The number that blows me away is that in a 25,000 square foot house, again, depending on, you know, Big Bird or Small Bird, but 60,000 gallons of water, you know, during the course of grow out flock, you know, that's what's added to the litter, 60,000 gallons. So ventilation is a big deal.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, it's key. It's key to proper litter management. There's much better guys on ventilation than I am, but from a, just from litter quality and packaging management, ventilation is important, if not for those reasons alone. Yeah. So that's, that's, it's always a little shocking that you tell them, you're like, oh, okay, we really are pumping water out of these houses with our fans. Yeah. Second question, you've mentioned minimum ventilation when you talk about in between flocks or during flocks for moisture control. Can you tell me or tell our growers or our listeners what is your take on minimum ventilation for say like litter management and the mode control between flocks? If I was talking to a grower, I'd say two fans. I think that's just an easy number. You don't need your circulation fans up top, unless you see the house is sweating, you know, that sort of situation. But two fans low speed. That's to me, that's just an easy thing to remember. You know, I just, they don't need to be still in between. You know, and for biosecurity, I think one of the things that I'm glad to see is that a lot of these doors were being closed during outtimes. Keeping sparrows and pigeons and finches and whatever out of the houses. I mean, not ducks and geese, right? They're probably not going to fly in there. It's not possible in schools. Hopefully not. I don't know why I'm mallard flying to a chicken house, but stranger things have probably happened. I just think that our other birds or more resident local birds are knowing where to cheat and go get feed, right? So they're the ones are most likely to go in there just for AI control. But when the doors are closed, I mean, that's an opportunity to, you know, you don't need to evaporative cool it, right? You just need to pull air through, get that static pressure just enough to continue to pull air over that litter. And I think two fans is minimal. I appreciate that. You don't know how many times we've seen or I've seen is like, well, We opened the doors and we got some air blowing through here. I was like, that's not ventilation. You just got a little bit of wind. You're just trying to be free. And look, I get it. Every place you can save a nickel, I was raised that way, right? Look for every place you can do to save. But you don't save a nickel to lose a dime. And that's the way I see not running ventilation during your outtimes is doing that. I agree wholeheartedly. All right, next, what are some, and we don't have time to go into a whole lot of detail in all of them, but when, what do you normally see as some of the commonly used interventions or management strategies between flocks that are helpful or that actually work? It could be either ammonia or moisture or disease or whatever.

Dr. Zac Williams: Well, again, I don't think we'd cover them all, But one thing that I've seen that I really like is a growing trend towards year-round ammonia control. And it's not just for ammonia control, right? I mean, you are getting a better sort of punch for your dollar in the summertime for disease management, not really ammonia control because of the ventilation and not being so worried about, or even hardly at all about propane use, right? So year round ammonia control is good. The other thing I like what I'm seeing is elevated levels of ammonia control agents being used. So, well, I think we can get by with 50 pounds to get us close to 25 ppm at placement. And so those numbers being, what's the least I can spend to get that least check that box on that welfare, that contract. I think now that we're seeing some pathogen elimination or pathogen, not elimination, pathogen reduction with again this pH shock to the pad or excuse me, to the litter and to the pad to be honest. You know, those are, I like seeing that management strategy. I think that's happening across the industry. And look, those are the growers that are settling in the top quarter, top half, right? So it's not like they're not spending the money because they're not making it on the backside, right? So it's a good dollar spent. I think the other thing I like is that I'm seeing that top echelon of growers that are doing continuous water sanitation. This isn't between flocks, okay? but if they're doing continuous water sanitation, they're in there looking at water more regularly. They're walking those lines there, or even folks that are doing consistent waterline cleaning and descaling. You know, they're walking those lines, they get to see an experience, and they should be anyway, just picking up birds during grow out, right? But they get to see where those leaks are. I think those are great strategies. The folks that have kind of seen this, They've gone way down the coffee ground side and have seen, no, we need to leave, you know, the nickel dime size, penny size particles. Those are fantastic. We lost our water absorption. It almost like the water beads up and it doesn't do that good a job and you start to see paw quality issues when you overgrind or over pulverize your litter. So I think that's a nice sort of management strategy. And again, I wish we could talk all our growers into instead of going to the casino, the day after they get their birds out and take a break, they go in there right immediately and go get that litter decaked. At least start there, right, Zac? You know what I'm saying? Get it decaked. I mean, there's things you can put off to later, but if you get the cake out, man, you're so much better shape from a disease anemone perspective. I just think that's a culture shift that has to happen at a complex level, but we can preach it here from the scientific side all day long. It's getting it done in the field that matters.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, you gotta get that moisture out. What about things like wind-rowing?

Dr. Zac Williams: Oh, huge fan of wind-rowing. I think the risk is, you know, it needs to be For your top growers that pay attention to detail, what a wonderful tool for disease management and ammonia control. I mean, moisture control, there's everything, but you've got to do it not only right, you got to hit your temperatures, you've got to measure that and know it. You know, once you've done it a few times, I think it becomes easier successfully. But if you don't do it right, you can create as many problems as you do if you don't do it at all, or more problems if you don't do it at all. So doing it properly, getting those piles heated up to, you know, 145, I don't know what temperature is current. I've heard 145, 140, 145, is that still the common temperatures at up to 160?

Dr. Scott McKenzie: No, I think we're still hitting like the 130s, 145s. And I mean, that's pathogen control. That's where you're gonna start killing things. You get 160s or higher, you're almost a little bit of risk for some damage.

Dr. Zac Williams: Oh, sure. Yeah, you don't wanna start a fire.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: You do not wanna start a fire. And then you start killing off the good bacteria as well. So we try to keep it 130, 145, somewhere around there.

Dr. Zac Williams: Well, you know, you're paying for, or the integrator's paying for, you know, there's bacillus species in the feed. Most everybody. It's super common and you know, they're doing some nice things like the bacillus that go through and that that is helping the microbiome there So yeah, we want to get just enough to get the gram negatives out. I've run into the same 140 degree Problem and hatcheries in the traywash, you know, we well forget 140 what would 145 do now? How about 150 155 how about 160? You know, it's like an auction. You just sound like an auction here a little bit Well, we're not trying to get to 160. I've heard that was a number targeted. I think it was more of an experiment, but the 140 is kind of the key number to hit if you're gonna do pathogen control. Now ammonia can be a little bit less, but you've gotta do it right. I'm a fan of it. I just see it done incorrectly too often or rushed. You know, they stop it after four days. It didn't quite get there. and then you almost create a second set of problems. So if you do it right and have that confidence, man, I love wind rowing.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: I tell everybody the same thing as I tell before, like if you're gonna wind row, as soon as those birds come out, you better be in there that next day. Get it started.

Dr. Zac Williams: Give it plenty of time.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yep, and the other problem I see on the flip side of the temperature is it not getting warm enough. And then you're actually helping your bacteria. You're helping those pathogens. you're giving them a nice place to live.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah, good 125.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Oh, we see them like, they're like, oh, we hit like 105, 100. I'm like, good luck. But that's what--

Dr. Zac Williams: Well, that's like when they say, I'm gonna close the house up and let it cook during the summer or during the fall, right? You're not cooking it, you're elevating pathogens. That's all you're doing. And you're not relieving getting rid of any pounds Nitrogen out certainly not no, and you're not getting rid of any moisture So you're just creating a pathogen sauna. Yeah, the high ammonia pathogen sauna If you're gonna close your house up and let them you know quote-unquote cook. Yeah, it's just bad idea Yeah, there's that and take temperatures so many of them win row and don't ever take temperatures Deep deep enough temperatures. Yeah, not just on on the surface get to the middle Yeah, so I think we've hit most of the good ones got decaking, windrowing, acidifiers or chemical treatments Those are the ones I see most common. Some people still I've seen some pulverizing, but I know it's kind of Lost some favor here recently Just because a lot of people were not pulverizing correctly or not pulverizing or not Tilling it or pull whatever you want to call it enough

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah.

Dr. Zac Williams: To really get those particles mixed in, a lot of people just like, "Well, we ran over it once or twice." And it's like, "Well, you're really just separating out your particle size and your litter then." So.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: You can underdo it and you can overdo it and both of them have their challenges. I do like it when it's done properly. It's like windrowing, right? If you do it right, it's the best. I mean, you can get deep enough where those ammonia bombs don't exist. You can get that litter smooth enough on top. Paw quality is going to be wonderful. Get your litter dry, get your ammonia down, birds are going to start off like rock stars. And that's the whole goal is to get to the end with as few, as many live birds as we can with the best feed efficiency. And I mean, that's the name of the game. That's how growers get paid and that's how complexes make money. So let's just, if you do it right, It's great. It's, you know, it's education too. I think too here, you know, we were talking about importance of having as much as we can in different languages, you know, this country is evolving in a wonderful way, you know, to, you know, where, you know, English literacy isn't always the assumption you should make anymore. And I know University of Arkansas has done a pretty good job of doing multi-language translations extension stuff. You do that, Zac, you know, and you know, I live here at College Station, TechSaneM is increasing the amount of that. AI has allowed us to do translations and yeah, you still got to cross-check them, but this is fantastic stuff and every little tool helps to make sure that best practices are communicated, right? And our integrators know that and asking and that's the message I'd give a service to. If you need it translated, something translated into Vietnamese or Burmese or Spanish or whatever, you just ask. I guarantee your manufacturers will help. 100% of the time. Yeah, just have to ask.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah, we try. And we got a lot of international growers that come over and have English as a second language. So yeah, you're right. It's a, translations can be a struggle sometimes. We do our best. All right, what would you say is the most common mistake you see a grower make? Give me one, top one.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: When it comes to litter management, I think the most common one is the assumption that once I put the ammonia chemical down, I can stop thinking about litter. Because, and the reason it's a mistake, is it almost sets up the work to set up that litter amendment for success becomes less and less important because it's just, when can I get to the date when the applicators come? So it's almost like elevating that litter-mement application date to the skies open up and have everything solved, you know? And it creates a false sense of security. Now that's a philosophical mistake, I guess more than a physical mistake. I think a practical mistake would be, you know, measuring ammonia at waist height while some fans are going and not in the brood not with the house set up, you know, just to check the box that, yep, it's 14, we're good to go, you know, and not putting that, that ammonium meter down at my ankle height with the brooder set up and heated, you know, it's almost like if you know, then you feel guilty. And I think that a grower needs to know that number, that true number at placement. And they need to see it, They need to execute that test so they can convince themselves, okay, next block, I might need to do something different or better or sooner or more. You know, again, not 25 gallons per thousand, but 35, you know, right? Order from the applicator. I need the plus 10 gallons or I need the plus 20 gallons or, you know, I need to go in and do better size management. I need to tilt deeper. I need to go across it three times. I need to hit my corners. I need to de-cake sooner, right? This is trying to just check a box versus knowing the real true data is probably a key mistake that I see made. Also probably philosophical, but it should be done, Zac. I like that. It's kind of like almost they just go through the motions a lot of times. It's like, "All right, we're just going to keep moving along and doing this and check the box." I was like, "All right, well, okay." I like those two. Think about acidifiers, they're another step in the process. They're not the end all be all or whatever chemical treatment you're putting down or and also don't just check the boxes. Like really get in there and dig down and get down to the root of the problems or whatever you're trying to do. I like those two. You talk to the guys that manufacture the acid ammonia treatments, 99% of the time when "Oh, there's a failure. This product didn't, your product didn't work. It didn't do his promise." And I go in the litter, soak and wet. I mean, they didn't decay. They're, you know, it's almost always something wasn't done to set the product up for success.

Dr. Zac Williams: There's no silver bullets. I tell everybody I'm like, "Nope, there are no silver bullets. It's just a whole bunch of little decisions and little actions you gotta make."

Dr. Scott McKenzie: You bet.

Dr. Zac Williams: The next question is one that I've been asked before and we talk about, and I have my opinions on it, but what about litter management? Do you think it's affected by whole versus partial brooding?

Dr. Scott McKenzie: You know, I looked at this question earlier and I kind of struggled with it, you know, Zac, because I think that, you know, if you were looking at if I'm an integrator and I'm looking at bird performance, why wouldn't I go for a whole house brooding, right? I create those behaviors early, I get good distribution, you know, that birds are gonna be together when they're day one through three anyway, but they'll spread quicker. This is about saving money, right? It's about cost management and center house brooding versus half house and all that. to me, and again, I look at it probably through the wrong lens of a toxicologist or whatever, but you know, I just think that the microbiome of the brood end to the off end are just quite different. And you know, ammonia is quite different. The amount of excrement waste, nitrogen, probably not that much different, but the ability of that off end to basically have the benefit of a longer out time, I think makes that half, half the half. I mean, I've never seen any data on performance of the birds that would generally be in the, you know, because once they find a place to live, they kind of stay there, you know, sort of kind of, right? You could put migration fences in. Have you seen any data on the off-end performance versus the brewed in performance in the plant or mortality, for example? I've not.

Dr. Zac Williams: I have not. That's interesting. I'll have to dig into that some, but offhand, I've not seen any data or any research comparing the off-end versus the brewed in.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: That'd be a good study for a master's student, right?

Dr. Zac Williams: It wouldn't.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Talk to somebody there at the university

Dr. Zac Williams: Let's see if that'd be a good one. I know a guy.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: You know a guy? (laughs) Good. Well, I look at it more like that than how to manage litter. I mean, the amount of water consumed is probably, you know, this can be higher in the brood obviously, but not that much more, the amount of experiment, a little bit, but not that much more. I just think there's more biology going. And I would think that the biome is a little bit different because of what that chick brings and doesn't bring in, together from the hatchery in those first seven days, seven to 10, whatever, however long they're brooding, maybe 12 days, I don't know. I just, I don't see massive management changes four litter between the two. Where I guess you've got to keep your eye on is if you're only treating the brood for ammonia. And that's common, right? I mean, we're only going to spray the brood. We're only going to put A7 on the brood or whatever. We're not going to do the whole house. So I think that changes the biome too. And so that's why I'm wondering is birds that tend to migrate to and stay in the hall versus those that don't migrate, stay in brood, what do they look like differently from a biome and from a performance perspective if you could almost draw a line between the two? And I know it's not a hard line, right? It's more of like two zones and a gray area in between. But I don't know, Zac, do you have any, you've been asked the question, I don't know that I have a clear answer for litter management strategy.

Dr. Zac Williams: I don't have a clear answer either. You know, a lot of people will say, well, if you're gonna do partial house, then your like waste and water load on that brood end is a lot higher in those first seven days than it was on the non-brood end. And I'm like, I get that, but also I'm like, ah, they're pretty little still. So I don't know.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: They're not drinking. They're not drinking that much water. They're not spilling that, well, they're probably spilling feed. They're not spilling badmatch feed, right? I mean, if you're putting out feed pan, you know, the starter stuff, right? Typical starter stuff. I think that all plays a role, but they're really not, the pounds of nitrogen, right? Uric acid, urea, and then the amount of water versus all the growout, you know, I put that 60,000 gallons and a 25,000 square foot house, I know again, big bird, small bird, that's the variable I'm not accounting for. But you know, of that 60,000, what is the difference gonna be like 2,000, 3,000 in the brood because of the size of that bird?

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: It's just not drinking. I'm not convinced, but there could be a number that could be thrown at me if I saw real data, could change my mind. But I think you treat the house as if it was whole house brooded when you're doing litter management. That'd be my gut.

Dr. Zac Williams: All right, I'm sure someone out there will have a differing opinion and they can let me know if you do. What about seasonal changes? Not so much spring and fall 'cause those are kind of our nice seasons. The big ones are the summer and winter when it's hot or cold. And I think the hard one is winter time.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: The hard one is winter because in summer, the only problem is going to be, you know, the amount of ventilation we need. And I'm here in Texas, you know, and down in, in South Central Texas, we're kind of the corner of the broiler belt, the major broiler belt. I mean, those fans are just cranking in July and August. I mean, it's a hundred degrees outside and 90% humidity. And you can, I mean, it's tough to get those houses even close to being cool enough. But, you know, so, so litter management really doesn't play a stronger role. I would say the immune system is taxed a little more. Respiration, you know, hydration is more of a concern at that point, water quality. You know, in the wintertime, I think that that's why I'm kind of glad we're seeing year-round ammonia treatment because we're not letting that nitrogen build up in the summer and even spring to get to a point where in the winter, now we're asking 25 gallons per thousand to do all the heavy lifting or 75 pounds per thousand of PLT or poultry guard. We're asking it to do a lot versus treating you around. And then in the wintertime, those numbers need to be going up. Now there's a maximum and the different chemistries have their own challenges, right? For paw quality and slick floors, if you overdo it, you can really hurt your performance every problem you're trying to solve, especially with pathogens, right? You're creating a whole new set of problems. So that's that wintertime slick floor, wet floor, sweating houses. This is when ventilation in between flocks is so key. I know it's pulling air through a cold house, but by God do it. Just turn them on. Again, fans are water pumps. They're not just for cooling their water pumps. I love that. While you read that years ago, I love that that kind of stuck in my head. But increasing the amount of ammonia control in the winter is absolutely critical. You know, again, I'll go back to this, this peracetic gas and PD2 granule, you know, a tool like that in the wintertime, I think is super important because If you can get that product placed seven to 10 days ahead, you don't need to use as much of your ammonia control product or you're setting it up for greater success. So you can keep that ammonia down longer, I think, I believe, right? And so that needs to be verified, but it makes sense less pounds of nitrogen, you know, less chemistry, or if you use the same amount of acid chemistry, you're gonna get an extended performance out of that. So the combination of that is another tool, I think for winter time. You know, I'll say this, you know, Zac too, that I experienced this with our water chemistries. And one thing in this industry that I'm starting to see are a lot of knockoffs, you know, copycat chemistries. And that's fine if you're not EPA regulated, that can happen. And like some of the water acidifiers and a waterline descalers are not EPA registered, so copying those. But if you're gonna be purchasing a copycat product, I guess there's two things to consider. I like to put this in two buckets, Zac, if I can go down a rabbit hole with you just a minute. One is it's the Coke and Pepsi thing, right? I was in the Western part of the country last week And every time I asked for a Coke or a Coke Zero, I said, "Is Diet Pepsi okay?" And I, "I know it's not okay. I didn't ask for a Diet Pepsi." Well, it's the same thing. No, it's not the same thing. I mean, you know, it's like, I'm from Texas, right? So Dr. Pepper is not the same as Mr. Pippin. Dr. Pepper is better. I'm sorry. It just is. I don't want a Mr. Pippin. I want a Dr. Pepper. So if you're asking for a specific product, you know, like if you're asking for liquid seven, you need to be getting liquid A7. If you're asking for PLT or poultry garter, any branded product that's been out there for a while, that's what you should be getting because of the second bucket here, okay? You can have the same ingredients, but it doesn't mean you know how to make the product. And you know, on my Instagram, man, I'm on a great set of Cajun cooking algorithms. I get all kinds of recipes. My latest is this boot-end cornbread, right? And so there's all these recipes for boot-end cornbread. I've been trying to kind of create my own. And so if I'm reading a recipe, there's two things I need. I need the list of ingredients and I need the, how to make it, right? The oven set at 400 degrees, cook for 35 minutes. You mix these ingredients first, then beat the egg and add this in. Add the half and half cream and, you know, let the, there's a way to make something. and then there's a list of ingredients. If you've got the list of ingredients but you don't know the way to make it, you're probably gonna do it wrong. And I would say that's true with disinfectants for a hatchery. I would say that's true for litter amendment chemistries. I would say that is true for waterline products. The list goes on and on. It could even be nutritional supplements, right? Copy-catch means you might have the right ingredients but you didn't necessarily have the way to make the product. So I'm seeing that out in the ammonia control side of this business a little bit. And it's just kind of drawn a little bit of a, not a red flag, but a yellow flag to me that if you ask for a brand versus a commodity, right? If I need 50% peroxide, then I can just look, it's one ingredient, no problem, no problem. Formaldehyde, formaldehyde, isopropyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, these are commodities. That they're not commodities and they're formulas. that are formulated, you better ask for it by brand name. And if you got a copycat, I don't know if I'd be the first one out of the gate to try it. I think I'd let somebody else try it and see what it did to their birds before I'd try it myself. Anyway, that's a rabbit hole. I just want to go down real quick, Zac. I just, I think for litter treatment, it's something I've noticed over the last couple of years and it's perked a little yellow flag in my head. So there's something to think about, But yeah, winter time is a different game, man, especially think about the producers up in Wisconsin and Minnesota for broilers, the JBS complex is up there or even raising birds up in PA, the Northeast and it gets quite chilly versus South Alabama or South Texas, right? We've got different challenges, but litter management is mostly the same. It comes out of ventilation in your strategy to save money, but don't save a nickel to spend a dime.

Dr. Zac Williams: I like that. You remember that advert, your product, you remember that commercial was like, ain't nothing like the real thing? I was trying to remember, was it like Coke or Pepsi or one of them, that was-

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, it wasn't Coke. I don't think it, well, I don't remember. Ain't nothing like the real thing. Yeah, I remember. I don't remember what product it was, but that came into my head when you were talking about like knockoff products All right, I like that though seasonal changes And we're getting kind of running out of time here, but One last question if you got any strong opinions on litter maintenance I get this question a lot because of course the ventilation is different What about solid sidewall houses versus curtain sided as far as litter management goes? During outtimes I would it comes down to the open door at the NZAC right we're talking about static pressure and moving Forcing air across that litter surface You know and and there's other questions you could probably ask about it like are there baffles? curtain baffles in there to force that air to go down close to the ground And make sure that velocity is there again boy. There's there's some guys at UGA There's so much better than I than this but You know, I think the fortunate piece of this is that our side curtain Housing is dwindling Quickly, right? I mean Contracts aren't even being renewed unless they they do a retro and and and and put in solid sidewall. I don't know. What do you even think in the US is the percent curtains anymore? It's low and it's shrinking every day, but there are still some out there. It's basically when you get more in like, I've seen a lot of turkey and a lot of ducks that are still solid, that are still curtain-sided, that they're just a little bit behind the broiler industry or else they're just just using older barns just to not build them more. So it's a very low percentage though.

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah, it's low. I mean, it's gotta be getting close to the single digits and broilers percentage wise. I think the turkeys have some different opportunities to use side curtains, even though there's really no new construction that's gonna ever do side curtains, but you've got a different way you raise them. We've got different concerns with ammonia. They move litter. Oftentimes, there's a brood versus grow out there. It's a whole different game for the turkey folks. But I still say that if you can, the powered ventilation, thinking about water and the fans as a pump to dry that litter, If you can pull it off with side curtain, and you can get that moisture down to, you know, 22%, 20%, you know, all more power to you, but very tough inside curtain to get that if your moisture is too high. So I'd say that's a dying problem, but something, and I'll tell you it's a dying thing because I'm so unfamiliar with it. It was around when I started this industry, but just every year it just seemed like massive amounts of houses are being converted and the benefits are tremendous for solid.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: Yeah, I haven't, I've seen some and then like, I went for a long time, I think I never saw any. And then last year I was up in parts of Ohio and in Michigan, I saw a bunch. That was the majority. And it does its own, its own set of problems and issues. So, all right, we're getting kind of at our end of time. You got any parting words of wisdom for our listeners here?

Dr. Zac Williams: Yeah, I think for litter management, again, we don't wanna just check the box to say we hit the ammonia level, right? I think if you're thinking about litter and setting up the birds for success and setting up your ammonia control chemistry for success, that's great. You're well down the road. But think about disease, even if it's a sub-chronic disease, if you're a good grower, and you should know if you're a good grower, if you're doing things right, and you're still settling around 50%, even in the third quartile, right, between 25 and 50%. You've got this sub chronic pathogen, you know, maybe necropsies are showing it, your vets probably helping you. Well, you know, we might have respiratory, you might have something in the joints, you've got secondaries, we're seeing E. coli, or there's this, you know, we can't seem to get rid of the pseudomonas. I think it's time to think of your litter as the vector for the disease in between flocks. It's just not going away. And if you're a good grower, you should be settling in closer to the top. It's time to think about doing your litter prep. Maybe earlier is a parting word and then adding chemistry to the litter between flocks. Whether you do this alkaline PD2 product in combination or sequentially followed by an acidic litter treatment to get those pH shifts or just go in with a method that will augment your current ammonia treatment system like an acid with the halogen like iodine, something like that, you're gonna have to go in or just a higher concentration of your acid ammonia product. It's time to think about that as an opportunity, not just for ammonia, but for pathogens. And again, to assume you're doing everything else right, We're asking a lot of that bird when it's first placed. So setting it up for success will set you up for profit.

Dr. Scott McKenzie: I like that. So again, Scott, I appreciate it. And we're gonna wrap up this. If anybody has any questions, feel free to reach out. I'll have my email down in the description as always. And I'd like to thank everyone for listening.

Dr. Zac Williams: Thank you. Appreciate it, Zac. Thank you for tuning into the Fowl Frontier, Poultry Science, I'm Plucked. We hope you enjoyed our deep dive into the world of poultry science. Be sure to subscribe so that you can stay updated on the latest episodes. If you have any questions, comments, or just want to reach out to us, you can do so on social media or via email at zwilliams@uada.edu. www.cwilimss@uada.edu.