Even Though I Walk
Interviewing people who are walking through a dark time; using that experience to encourage listeners to reach out and connect with others in a similar situation.
Even Though I Walk
Conversation with RepresentativeTom Cole
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In a world full of noise, some conversations remind us what really matters: faith, family, service, and the courage to keep walking.
On this episode of Even Though I Walk, Congressman Tom Cole shares the story behind the values that shaped his life and leadership.
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Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Even though I walk, I'm your host, retired Air Force firefighter and Navy chaplain, and currently serving as a hospice chaplain and veteran program coordinator, Steve Mills. You'll see the background is a little bit different, a little bit plain. You'll understand why in about a month or so. Hey, in today's episode, I have a conversation with Congressman Tom Cole. He is the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, and he shares his story of faith and family and how they've influenced him in serving our country. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the podcast. And oh, by the way, the Congressman and I did not coordinate our close at all. You'll see. Congressman, I appreciate you coming on my podcast, Even Though I Walk. It's based off of Psalm 23, Even Though I Walk Through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear no evil for you are with me. I did my doctoral work in it, using it as a healing response to combat stress and PTSD. I did that in 2009, and it is continuing to bear fruit. And uh again, I appreciate uh your time. Now I've heard it said that in polite company, one should not discuss politics or religion. So we have a congressman and a chaplain. I think we we might break that rule, but but I know we can break it congenially. Um but uh but again I I appreciate you and uh I've read up about you, I've watched some videos on you, and fascinated by your office in DC. So I'm a member of the Choptaw tribe. And uh I learned something about that. Uh that Indians are the only ones allowed to possess an eagle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's correct. Uh, you know, because they're an endangered species, but there's a special except it's one of the great gifts you can get. And uh as a matter of fact, the guy who gave it to me, Ernie Stevens, uh who is head of the um Gaming Association for Tribes in Washington, D.C., he's an Onida Indian from uh Wisconsin. He and I will both be inducted later this year in Native American Hall of Fame in Oklahoma City together. We've worked together, of course, for many years. I uh but I had no idea he was going to be uh nominated as well. And uh big guy, great basketball player when he was in college.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, amazing. So yeah, uh in doing some research, I've learned a lot of things, not just about you, but also about my my heritage as well. So I just want to have a conversation and just learn about Tom Cole. Who is Tom Cole? Growing up, uh I know your mom was the mayor of Moore, your dad did 20 years in the Air Force, and but uh tell us about your upper email.
SPEAKER_00Well, we're a pretty typical service family. Uh you know, my uh family very deeply rooted in Oklahoma. The my mother's side of the family is Chickasaw, and the first of her four bearers arrived here literally immediately adjacent to and sometimes in this district uh back in the 1830s. Uh and so her family's been here ever since. My dad's father, which is non-native, or his grandfather, uh, was born in Mississippi during the Civil War in 1862, which is in where the Chickasaws are from. And he moved to Oklahoma in 1880. I mean, Mississippi was a pretty depressed, and so that side of the family's been here over 150 years. And he they always have lived inside this district. So we're deeply rooted here. But my dad uh joined the Army Air Corps in 1940, right out of high school. Uh then uh when the war was over, came back, stayed in the service. Uh, he and my mother had gone to uh school together. He was a little bit older, but they'd gone to high school together. Matter of fact, my mom used to joke about it. I said, I met your father when I was in the fifth grade and he was in the eighth, and I graduated in 1939. He graduated in 1940. He was not much of a scholar, but he was a great football player and managed to drag that out. So he played five years of high school football and was still playing when he was 20 years old. Uh he was a pretty good player, too. Uh very good player, actually. Uh, but anyway, they got married, and uh uh, you know, I got born when they were stationed at Barksdale Air Force Base in 1949. Uh my brother had been born there a couple of years earlier, and then we just moved around. We served as families due. Uh, next duty station was Scott in Illinois. Uh and then the first place I remember as a kid growing up uh is the Canal Zone. Uh, because that I was like there from the time I was three to the time I was five or six. Uh and uh then we went to McGuire Air Force Base uh uh for five years, dead had an unusually long stint there. He was an incredible mechanic, a master mechanic, and he ran docks where they would turn around. He he won we I still have the plaque. He won Dock of the Month uh so many times in Maguire, they stopped giving it out. And then when he our last place was Dover, he spent the last year of his career there, uh, and they gave me the worst doc. He won Dock of the Month seven out of twelve years, yeah, or twelve months. Uh so he was pretty uh pretty special at that and would have stayed in the uh Air Force forever, you know. Uh, but mom wanted the my brother and I to get home. We always came home and during uh you know family or vacations, quote unquote. You get uh three weeks, you wanted to off a year, and we would be lighted back to Oklahoma. They both uh went to Ardmore High School, so grandparents on both sides of the family were there, aunts, uncles, cousins, all that sort of thing. Uh but mom really wanted us raised uh in Oklahoma. I remember the climactic meeting of the family, and uh uh we had a both and my brother and I didn't know anything about the Air Force uh as Air Force brats, and we loved it. You know, we loved going living on bases, and they're cool places. I mean, uh you know, uh military families, uh there's no I mean, you make friends in a hurry, and people are coming and going a lot, and uh they got a common code and a common set of values. It's a great way to grow up. But she wanted to throw up in Oklahoma as Oklahoma's. And so we had a vote after this long discussion. Mom pointed out that dad's pension would only go up like $10 a month if he stayed in another 10 years. Uh they've restructured that now. It's a lot better. They put a lot more value on people staying longer. But uh anyway, uh it was three to one to stay in the service, but the one was her, and so the debate was over, and we came back to Oklahoma. I thought we were my brother and I would grow up in Ardmore. There was still uh the uh uh airbase, uh there was an airbase there until 65. It's now the industrial park for the town. Uh uh it was still operating. Dad thought he could get a job out there as a civilian defense worker. He ended up getting a much better job offer at Tinker. Uh and uh uh, you know, we moved to Moore. And so uh I'm four blocks from the house I grew up in in Moore, Oklahoma. We moved there in 1960, November, uh, and it was a town of about 1,700 people. Today it's a town of about 65,000 people. So, I mean, we sort of grew up with a town. That's where mom got into politics. Dad again did another 20 years as civilian defense worker at Tinker. And then my brother followed a very similar path. He went into the Air Force uh during the Vietnam era and uh uh like Dan, uh, you know, green mechanic, came back out uh and didn't do a full career, uh, went to work at Tinker Air Force Base. Now he's retired. So again, life pretty closely associated with the military growing up. Uh and both of my parents, I would say, had a real commitment to public service. Now, my dad, you wouldn't have drug him into politics, uh, you know, with with a you know uh 12 horses. Uh, but uh you know, his service was in uniform and then helping the people that are in uniform. He was magnificent at uh, you know, I had guys in the service. Uh my cousin, who was later a colonel uh in the Air Force, told me, he said, your dad was still legend when I got in the Air Force at the you know how good he was at making sure that airplanes were airworthy. He took that job very seriously. Uh and then my mom, uh, you know, the Indian side of the family had actually always been somewhat political. My great-grandfather, her grandfather uh was uh treasurer of the Chickasaw Nation uh before statehood. Uh her uncle, or her great uncle, my great-great uncle was governor of the Chickasaw Nation. She always had kind of a political bent. And uh as soon as we were out of the service, she had traveled around. She grew up in Depression era, Oklahoma as a Democrat. And she said, uh I remember when I saw when I were the only two Republicans, I think, living in Ardmore, Oklahoma, her girlfriend uh leaned over to me and we saw this attractive couple in the suit and tie and well-dressed woman. And my girlfriend leaned over me and went, Shh, those are the Republicans, like they were the only two. But uh well, as we traveled around, she decided wherever there were two parties that were competing with one another, uh, and people forget how corrupt one party Oklahoma was. Um, and it was more transparent, it was better, and she she kind of was naturally concerned that she was a big Nixon fan in the 50s and early 60s. She was a Nixon alternate delegate uh when he was nominated for president in 1968. Um but she got involved in local politics, and back then, I mean, literally, the state was 12, 13 percent uh registered Republican. Uh, got to know Henry Bellman when he was state chairman of the Republican Party, and she uh was a state committee woman from Cleveland County. Uh so I grew up with people like Henry Bellman and Dewey Bartlett coming into the House, and we didn't have money or influence, but it just weren't very Republicans, and mom was very good at organizing things. Uh, and so she became kind of the ace organizer in northern Cleveland County. Uh and I then remember Bud Wilkinson coming to the house when he was running for the Senate, and she would get the local Republicans together and they would give their pitch and and get the ones involved in in politics and would. So I grew up in a pretty political household. It was a divided household for a while. My dad was a New Deal Democrat. Uh, but the debates were always incredibly interesting, and eventually she won. You know, and he became a Republican, like most of the people. So they had 51% of the vote. Yeah, well, she uh she demonstrated that what we ended up coming back. So uh again, uh, but no, it was a great household. Two uh my parents were both great patriots, they were wonderful parents. Uh I worked hard for their kids, uh, didn't have a lot, but uh uh, you know, nobody ever wanted for a meal, everybody uh, you know, got the support they needed. And I grew up with the belief everybody should be raised by a non-commissioned officer, I guarantee you. But my my dad uh had a fine uh non-com talent for using foul language, uh, but he never against my mother. And uh it was usually directed at my brother and me. And then we usually deserved it when it came.
SPEAKER_01So politics was really in your history, it's in your blood, and that kind of leaves me. So you uh went to school to be a history professor. Yeah. And now at politics, and we're gonna get to the history part as well, because I I I love that aspect. Uh, and I looked at some of the books that you've read and are and are reading. My wife is a prolific reader, and she'll probably read 300 books a year. Wow. Uh she is uh and has heard of most authors. Uh I'm I'm a decent reader, but nothing like 300 is uh that's a big number. Yeah, she'll have five or so going at the same time. Wow. And I have to trudge through one. Uh but uh so really uh what prompted you? What was the catalyst for you to get into politics and and to buy it?
SPEAKER_00Really my mom's yeah, I was always interested in politics because she was interested in politics and it was discussed at the table. Look, again, when you grew up in a military family, particularly in the 50s, uh you know, the Cold War was a real thing. And uh uh, you know, when bases would go on mobilization, I remember I still remember very well when uh Khrushchev uh came, I think it was '57, uh, to the United States, because he landed at Buyer Air Force Base. We went out to watch see the plane. And my dad is uh, you know, again, probably the top master sergeant. We didn't that was the top uh rank at that point uh for a non-commissioned officer. Uh, you know, could get us right up to the plane. Because everybody was well, I sergeant Cole and his two kids, so they're they're gonna, you know, after obviously we worked there when Khrushchev was on the plane, but we got pretty close. Uh and uh but you know, I remembered uh things like that growing up, and we taught politics a lot, always. Uh national politics, and when we got to Oklahoma, Oklahoma politics, his mom was active there. But what really got me into it was she uh worked as a Republican volunteer uh uh and uh for about 16 years. She, you know, she worked in other people's campaigns, she was a local organizer, all that sort of stuff. And finally in 76, uh I was in graduate school at the University of Oklahoma, I was pursuing a degree in British history. Um and uh they local party people taught my mother into running for the state house. And she waged a really good campaign. Uh and I helped a little bit. You know, I put out some signs and did a couple things, but I didn't help much. I mean, I was like most graduate students. I was focused on my deal and getting the degree done. Uh, and she lost that election. And it was really close. I mean, she was at 49.5%, got more votes than any winner had ever gotten. But uh, we had both liquor by the drink and the presidential election on the ballot, and she didn't cover stuff. And I mean, I was telling people the worst place on the planet to be is your mother loses a campaign, and you haven't done what you know you should have done for her, given all the sacrifices she did for me. So we used to have Sunday dinner together when I was in graduate school. My wife and I would drive from Norman up to Moore, and you know, we'd get a washing machine because we didn't have one in our apartment. Uh mom would make a great Sunday dinner, and somehow my car was always empty when I got there, but my dad would sneak out and fill it up. You know, it's kind of stuff like they were wonderful, wonderful parents. But we were talking about a campaign uh a couple months after, and I said, I think I understand why you lost. And she looked at me really skeptically and said, Yeah, really? Why, kid? Because why you didn't do much to help. Uh and I said, you know, I think you tried to be the campaign manager and the candidate at the same time. It's a very common mistake for first-time candidates for local office. And I said, I don't think you can do both those things. And if you'll run again, I'll learn how to run a campaign. Uh and I think you would win because she dynamite the door. She was a very engaging person. People liked her. And you just need more time working voters one-on-one. Somebody else needs to get the volunteers organized and the signs out and help raise the money and do these things. You know, you're and uh I never thought she'd run again, or I'd probably never made that commitment. But uh February of '78, I was in London on a Fulbright fellowship. Uh, and my mom gets in touch with me and says, I'm running. When are you coming home? And uh she knew I was coming back in June. Uh so I said, Okay, so I got back in June. The Republican Party at Oklahoma used to put on little um kind of three or four-day schools for managers for local uh races. I went to one of those. I went down, talked to the people of the department uh at OU, my chairman of the department, my dissertation advisor. And I was teaching European history that summer. Uh I said, I'm gonna teach the classes because I need the money, but I want to be honest with you, I'm gonna full fellowship here. I'm not gonna do anything, probably on my dissertation until November. I'm gonna do this thing for my mom. And they were great. They were, look, you're our best student. We don't get a lot of full bright scholars around here. You do what you need to do. Uh just uh, you know, come back. Well, so I ran the campaign. And uh she was every bit the candidate I predicted she would be. Uh and uh we won that election. And along the way I found out, number one, I really like campaigns. There are when I was a kid in high school and in college, I was a pretty good football player. I was all conference in high school. I could play D3 football. Um, and uh uh I like team sports. And adult uh politics is a team sport, it's an adult team sport. And a uh a locker room is a lot after a game is a lot like a watch party after an election. Uh you're there together with people that you've fought with, worked with, you've spent months on the project. There is a game, there is a day, there is a score. And it's very bonding, win or lose, because you fought for something you believe in that's bigger than yourself, team, whatever it is. And I like that. So I just started running campaigns for fun uh while I was finishing up my degree, and I was pretty good at it. And uh uh, but I didn't know people paid you to do it. So finally special election, a guy that was actually uh retired Coast Guard, a guy who had been a Coast Guard recruiter, his son and I played high school football uh together, and he called me and said, Hey, any chance you'd run my little six-week special election for county commissioner? I said, Oh, Mr. Wilson, I don't I don't think I can do that. I'm in a pretty critical point in my dissertation. And he goes, I'll pay you. And I said, Really? He said, Yeah, how about a hundred bucks a week? Okay. Uh and he won. And uh about a year or so after that, I got a call from the state party chairman. I got involved in state party politics of a guy that he tried to hire and said, No, you should hire this guy. I've got another opportunity. And uh went up to save. His name was Harold Hunter, former state legislator, then a congressional candidate, big rancher up in Wacomas, uh in uh uh, you know, close to Enid, Republican territory. And anyway, he offered me a job. He said, Can I talk you out of academic life for one year? And you can, it was 1980. This was we were having our discussion in December of 79. Um, and uh Don Nichols was running for the Senate. He and my mother had become really good friends in the state legislature. Actually, uh he and I were talking about we said, you know, your mom got me going. I probably wouldn't be a Christian. She got me into the prayer circle at uh uh in the legislature. And so he um uh, you know, he was running. Ral Ray was one of my heroes, he was running. Uh and I noticed that one year, I can do one year, and it paid more than I was making as a graduate assistant. So I did, and uh after that there was always another political job that just kept coming. I mean, win, lose, or draw, and that was a lot of losing as well as winning efforts over the years. But there was always something, it always kept me in Oak Law. There's always something I was interested in. I was usually working for or with people I liked a lot or admired a lot. And so that just is the path that opened up to me. Uh, you know, and I've always felt bad about that because my wife married me because I was an academic. Her dad had been a bit business law professor at Bowling Green University in Ohio, State University, where she's from. And uh she uh ended up in a life that she did not plan to lead. So she's been very understanding.
SPEAKER_01My uh my wife's in was a minister, and so as a preacher's kid at PK, she grew up thinking, I am not marrying a minister. I'm not gonna so 39 years later, here we are. Um and you know, I I would venture to say a chaplain has a different role than the church pastor. I did uh pastor church for three years, and it was a small farming community in Waverly, Missouri. Lovely people, incredible, but that was not my calling when I interviewed to be a Navy chaplain, and and the Navy reached out to me just out of the book. Like it I still have this letter. Dear Reverend Mills, this letter might change your life. Don't throw it away. I should probably throw this letter away. I read it again, and how would you like to serve with the men and women of the sea services? No. How do you like well that fill up with the Marines? Ah no, that's a no. We pursued it. God kept opening doors. And when they offered me a commission, that was the mission field. That was what God had prepared me for. And then as I uh so I did uh 10 years as an Air Force firefighter, and then 22 as a Navy chaplain. And when I retired, I thought, man, I'm done. I'm beat up. My body, I've had more body parts replaced than a person should. Uh I was exhausted. I was like, all right, God, thanks for that. I'm done being a chaplain. He was like, uh, I'm gonna give you a break, but you're not done. And then working in hospice has been the most rewarding, heartbreaking job I've ever had.
SPEAKER_00Very, very tough.
SPEAKER_01And you talk about the team aspect and everything. I went to my life in thirds. The first third as a firefighter, I helped people directly in crisis, in fighters, and car wrecks, uh, medical emergencies. Then as a Navy chaplain, helping people go into combat zones and come back, myself, having been to Iraq and Afghanistan and a few other fun places over there. But I helped people kind of in the prime of their life, and now I have the privilege of walking with them at the end of their life. And what I've discovered, nurses in general are amazing. Hospice nurses and aides are just there's something special about it. And you'd mentioned the teamwork aspect and coming together, and it's a passion, it's a drive. I think we would all do it for free if we could, but it's just absolutely the most amazing thing. And and I had never really equated all of that to a campaign or the politics, but it is. You come together for a common belief and you fight for those beliefs, and sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Sometimes, now going into hospice, we know that our folks are are at the end of their life, but to walk with them with dignity and honor and courage is is the most amazing thing. But so one of the questions I have for you, so in politics in life, in religion, there's really no perfect answer. Uh my son and I, he he's uh in the Coast Guard stationed in DC, uh, and he and I have what I call uh the deep end conversations. There's no shallow end with that young man. We we get right into it, and it's politics, it's religion. This last time it was the end times and all of that, and I'm like, Jonathan, my my head hurts, son. It's about an hour 15, and he's he's sharp and it keeps me on my toes. But how do you, when you come across a situation or decision where there's no perfect answer, how do you how do you make peace with that?
SPEAKER_00Uh look, I honestly in a strange way, history helps me with that. Uh I always say, you know, wisdom usually comes from human experience, and that's what history is. So, you know, I think of all the other uh times that uh maybe people didn't get what they wanted or think didn't work out the way they would like. That's just life. Uh and uh my parents grew up in the depression, pretty humblings. Uh they're they're part of the greatest generation. Uh, you just don't quit. You know, I mean I I never saw either one of them quit at anything. Uh and uh I never saw them either one of them let somebody down. Uh and uh you commit to do certain things, whether you win or lose, uh, you just keep working at them. And uh, you know, I enjoy working the same way. Again, my parents liked working. They they never, you know, worried about that. So yeah, most of the life lessons I've learned actually came from them or just came from the experience, whatever you're doing. It teaches you some kind of lesson one way or the other. And uh, you know, so I I never worry about too much. You just do the best you can and and you'll see what happens the next day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and history is uh, you know, what's the phrase? Uh those who don't study history are doomed to repeat. And and I look now where some of our history is being revised. And uh that's a scary thing.
SPEAKER_00It is. I mean, you know, of course, history is always, in a sense, under revision, under debate, or whatever, but I do I do worry. Um, you know, we have always been an optimistic nation. We've never been a uh perfect nation. Uh and uh frankly, sometimes we're almost historically illiterate. Uh I was looking at a survey the other day that almost half the public doesn't know what the Fourth of July is. They know we're celebrating it's for our country. They don't know it's the Declaration of Independence and is the reason why we're celebrating it. And so, you know, that can be a blessing and a curse. I mean, sometimes not knowing uh, you know, ignorance can be bliss occasionally, but in the end, you're better off having a uh broad understanding that human achievement uh only comes from effort, uh, and that there's usually a lot of setbacks along the way uh and a lot of challenges. I mean, if it was easy to do, then it probably wasn't worth doing. That's right. The things that are hard to do, the things that uh you want to do. And and you know, I look at somebody like a, you know, let's just say what I would consider the greatest person of the 20th century is Winston Churchill. Uh, and uh how many setbacks in that life. I mean, you know, i i he was supposed to be done. He was in his wilderness years and the end of his career when he didn't have any earthly idea the most important thing he would do the Second World War was ahead of him. You know, he doesn't become prime minister until he's 65. Uh and he'd been a has been so many times earlier in his career. Oh, he's changed parties. Well, he'll never survive that, or glipoli, you know, uh he'll never survive that. Or he was a bust that uh uh, you know, chance for the exchequer, he won't survive that. He got on the wrong side of Stanley Baldwin, who was probably the preeminent power broker in uh uh British Conservative politics prime minister before Neville Chamberlain. Uh well, he's riding them all, and the the most important part of his life was still ahead of him. But he never quitted anything, and he was always engaged, and you know, it's just it's amazing, amazing life. Uh so you go a long way in life if you just don't quit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and one of my passions are obviously veterans, but specifically Vietnam vets. And I feel that our nation, our newer generations, don't remember, don't know what those men and women went through. One of the things with the podcast, I've interviewed a couple of Vietnam uh prisoners of war, former POWs, uh, interviewed Chuck DeBellevue, uh uh Vietnam Ace, uh, had six kills in the from the backseat of a F-4 Phantom. Phenomenal American, great guy. And uh one of my favorite interviews was with a lady, uh, Carol Hickerson. And the story would take too long to tell, but uh her present husband was at POW for five and a half years, and her first husband was shot down and killed in last. He was a marine pilot, and every time I go to DC, I go to the wall and I I go up and I put my hand on it and show respect and honor to him. But she designed the POW MIA flag and the silhouettes of her first husband. Wow. Very special people. Uh we were stationed. That the Navy did me wrong, my last duty station. They sent us to Hawaii. It was it was terrible. The sunsets, the perfect weather, the six dollar a gallon gas. But uh there's got to be some debt, even in paradise. Yeah, it's okay. Uh but the Jim and Carroll live in Hawaii, and we would have dinner with them every Wednesday. And uh the other thing I do is I I travel uh once a year uh to DC with some Vietnam vets. It's not the Honor Flight, it's a different organization. Honor Flight is amazing what they do, but we have our vets for four days. We take them to different memorials and the healing process, we've literally saved lives. We had one gentleman who said I I was gonna go home and kill myself. But because what you all have done for me this these four days, I'm not going to. And it's incredible. So my passion is to get their stories out there for two reasons, to educate people, but also the healing that comes from them telling their story. And that kind of segues into the the next uh uh question or phrase really is and again I go back to the podcast is even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, or literally deepest darkness, what valleys have you walked through and and how have they shaped you, not just as a congresswoman, but as a person?
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't you know, I haven't had I would not compare any experience that I've had with some of the folks you're talking about. Uh, you know, I haven't been in combat in a situation like that. Uh I've had the privilege of seeing some amazing people in stressful situations. Um you know, everybody has some challenges in their life. My dad had an alcohol problem, so but yeah, it it took a long time. We'd all given up, he finally dealt with it. Um and uh, you know, I an uncle we were talking about before you start filming, that uh look, he he uh he he was an interesting guy. He grew up uh uh in Ardmore, uh contemporaneous obviously a little bit older than my mother. And I asked him once, Uncle Tom, how'd you get in the Navy? And he goes, Well, it was like this. It it was uh I think he said 19, late 1930s, 37 or something like that. A judge looked at me and said, Son, what will it be? Reform school in the United States Navy. The Navy was great until Bataan in 1942. And he had been stationed uh a little gunboat called the Canopus, and it was running up and down the Yangtze River. If you ever see the old movie San Sand Pebbles, he's that guy. He's engineer on a little gunboat, uh, and uh living a uh a kind of interesting life as a single guy. Uh and uh uh but it it bring them all back at the beginning of the war, pull them in a manila and then scuttle him, uh, because you can't fight the Japanese Navy in gunboats and give him a rifle, turn him into an infantryman. He fought in Batan and did the Batan death march, bannat swan on him. But you know, I think about what he went through. Um I have uh you know his medals were actually up on the wall uh in our home and uh uh we got a very detailed account of a service record and all that stuff. But uh, you know, he had a tough life uh uh and faced a lot of challenges. Uh but uh met some people later that were with him in PO F POWs in uh Japanese prison camps, and they would tell me what a remarkable guy he was. I mean, you know, he always seemed to be that upbeat guy and would always help everybody as you were was always great. But it you know, he he was an alcoholic. It it really hit him really hard. He paid for it after. I was gonna ask, how did he deal? Uh well he was you know more Native American than me. Actually, a Native American jeweler did some beautiful work uh and was a successful business guy. But he had a problem with alcohol. It led to a divorce. Uh my first cousin, his son, is in business down in uh retired now, actually, but down in Dallas. And uh it was a rough family life for them. He ended up uh living with my uh uh grandmother, who lived in Moore where I live, uh and honestly, he never didn't beat alcohol at trying to kill them. Uh so yeah, he had a very hard life and you know, a challenging situation. But when he was going through what he would call the worst of it, I don't think it was, probably his private life turned into the worst of it later. Because again, it'll cost him his family and everything else. But uh uh, you know, under the strain of the moment, I've never met anybody that said he didn't perform extraordinarily well. It was remembering back and coming to grips with some of the things he'd seen, uh, some of the atrocities that uh he had watched uh committed to to his friends, his comrades. Pretty tough. But yeah, you know, I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan a lot. Uh probably the greatest crisis I was around, intimate sense, was the Oklahoma City bombing. Uh and uh I had the very good fortune to be working for Frank Keating. I was his Secretary of State. Uh I worked for him for two years running his campaign for governor, uh, then for four years as Secretary of State. You know Keating, he is one of the most, he's one of the funniest, most bullion, outgoing people I've ever met. And uh I always say we laughed every day for six years, except for about two weeks around the Alcoholic City bombing. But it was the most extraordinary uh exercise in public leadership that I ever saw up close, and how he handled himself, how he led from the front, the decisions he made uh were pretty amazing. And and through that I got to to meet uh President Clinton uh uh for the very first time who came out for the bombing. And um I already knew George Bush, but he came up from Texas as a brand new governor, and uh it but it you know it was an amazing thing. So and I've been at crisis moments, uh you know, big votes or big controversies in Washington, D.C. over a long, long career. But uh, you know, again, uh you fall back on what are your values, what are you trying to accomplish, uh, who you know, you don't let your teammates down, and you have teammates, uh, but you're honest with them. And if you've got a difference, you uh deal with the difference. But uh, again, most of the time I've got a challenge. I usually think, you know, what will my mom do, or what will my dad do? And and my mom, I've got probably as good a political role model as anybody uh could have. I mean, she uh was a fabulously gifted local politician. Uh as a matter of fact, I'll tell you a funny story about it, because she and George Bush became very good friends. Uh in 1987, I was the uh Republican state chairman, and my mother was a Republican state senator. And a friend of mine was running George H.W.'s campaign, then vice president Bush's campaign for president here in Oklahoma. I get this call, and uh he says, uh chairman, uh, you know, I got good news and bad news. And I said, what's okay, what's the good? The good news is the son of the vice president of the United States is coming in to uh campaign for his dad. And I said, Well, that's very nice. That's great. He said, uh, I said, what's bad? I said, he said, the bad news is I told him I'd get about 20 state legislators uh and uh for him to give a little talk to, and I haven't gotten that done, and I'm on the way to the airport to pick him up. Can you help me? So the Republican headquarters is about 17 blocks immediately north of the Capitol on Lincoln Boulevard. And my mother was down there, and I so I said, I did what I did in every other crisis of my life. I went to talk to my mother. So I beelined it down there, explained, you know, we've got the son of the vice president coming. This guy's kind of screwed this up. Can you help me get some legislators together? Yeah, oh, she was a center, so she got it. Give me one of these, oh geez, kid, looks and gets a room, and and uh that's all great. And then um uh, you know, we round up about 20 legislators, and Bush comes in. Uh and most people know this, but it's worth referring, he idolizes his parents uh and particularly revered his father. And he starts giving this homily about his dad, talking about his many years of public service, talking about him as a young man, as a combat pilot, 58 missions in the Pacific, you know, shot down over Chichijima, a great book on that called Flyboys by James uh Brady, that uh you know covers nine pilots, eight of whom were captured by the Japanese and ceremonially eaten, cannibalized. Bush is only saved because an American submarine rises at the last moment, which we have on film, it's incredible, you know, as the Japanese patrol is coming out to pick him up. Uh so anyway, he talks about all this and his dad's values and what he'd learned from his father and everything. And so we're walking out of the room, and my mother and I used to have to steal, we'd call ourselves by our respective titles when we were both in politics. And so I leaned over to her and I said, Well, Senator, what do you think? And she looked at me and she said, Well, Chairman, I think you should talk about your mother the way he talks about his father. I love that young man. And they became really good friends. And she co-chaired the campaign, drove him around campaign. And every time I'd see him, uh, he would ask me, How's the senator? How's your mom? Uh and because they they really did. I got the most lovely handwritten note. But actually, both my father and my mother later passed away uh from uh President uh Bush. He's he's just such a class act. Um, but you know, again, uh you you do get some experiences in this. And I remember later, uh, you know, after I'd made him in '88 and uh then I'd gone up to DC and worked at the NRCC Laws Dam as president, interacted with him quite a few times uh uh there. And uh uh, you know, see the governor again. He and Keating are elected the same election night. Uh neither of them were supposed to win. Both of them did win, or at least they weren't supposed to win at the beginning of their campaign. His uh chief of staff, who later ran his campaign, Joe Albaugh, a good friend of mine, been my boss earlier in the Reagan years in Oklahoma. Uh, you know, and so uh, you know, they had this interesting parallel career. And I remember when uh we're doing the um ceremony, uh the uh the the uh prayer session with Billy Graham and uh kind of on Sunday after the bombing earlier in the week, Kathy Keating all put together, organizing the crowd, and you know, we've got the president there, Billy Graham there, and obviously Governor Keating. And I look back in the crowd and I see Joe Albaugh is a really big guy, he's about 6'5, burrhead, you can pick him out. He was uh Bush's chief of staff at that time, uh later a cabinet member ran FEMA, actually during 9-11. Uh and so uh I see Joe, and what in the world is he doing? I went back and as I broke for the crowd, there's Bush standing next to him. And I said, Governor, what are you doing here? I thought we had no idea you're coming. And he goes, Well, isn't that what neighbors do? I'm here to help and just grieve with you guys. I said, Well, I need to get you up front where the governor and the president are at. He goes, No, no, no, I can't do that. And I said, Governor, you're gonna do that, or I'll be fired the next day. And if he finds out you were here and I put you back here and you've come this way to be with us in a moment like this. Uh, you know, and uh but that's one thing I'll say about George Bush. I had a lot of experiences with him over a lifetime. He always stayed in touch with my mom. And uh matter of fact, they uh she was a delegate and he got nominated in 2000. He made sure that she was sitting in the family box uh, you know, uh for one of the nights. Not every night, but that was an honor to she's sitting there with former President Bush and with first lady, soon to be First Lady Barbara Bush, that sort of stuff. But you know, Bush is just a total class act. I mean, he just everything about him is uh something you can be proud of. But again, he tell you the same thing. You know, I learned all that from mom and dad, pretty much. And uh it took him, if you know much about his uh uh life, it took him a little while to learn it. And it'd be it it takes us all a little while. But yeah, we're shaped so much by the people around us. Uh, you know, Frank Keating is a guy that I had the great privilege of learning a lot about leadership from. He was supreme national crisis. Uh my parents, you know, just displayed the kind of character you'd want parents to display and made the kind of sacrifices for their kids uh within the limits of their means that that they could make. I mean, you know, we could have a better uh set of role models than uh than that. And uh yet it was always family first and uh, you know, and my dad was one of those guys till later in his life. He said, I'm not going to church, but you are Yeah. Because your mom wants you in church.
SPEAKER_01You know, the uh the bombing really, and that's that's what started the Oklahoma standard. And I I've lived, you know, I I think my wife and I figured out we lived in twenty two or twenty-three or twenty-two, twenty-three moves, lived in states and overseas. And you're right, when you're in the military, especially overseas, you become friends instantly. But with the Oklahoma Standard, uh, so my parents are from uh Hugo, Durant, that area. Uh they migrated to Southern California in the early 60s, and that's when I came on the scene. So I I was born there and grew up.
SPEAKER_00Former Chief Pop.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so there's a lot of them in uh Napomo, California, Pismo Beach. Uh a lot of my family's there. But when and we were stationed in some other states, and I I I won't mention the particular one, but they said, well, if you're not born here, you're not ever going to be from here. I said, Yeah, that that's fine. When we moved to, I got stationed uh at Tinker as a Navy chaplain in 2006. When people found out that I my roots are from Oklahoma, they're like, son, welcome home. And it is just uh we've never felt that ostracization. And again, we go back to those crises, to those those dark valleys. And yes, some have darker valleys than than others, but we all have ours. And I go back to the the two key phrases. Even though I walk through the valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. And even though a bombing happens, even though crises happen, even though whatever diagnosis happens, I won't fear because you have sent God is with us, but also He sent other people to walk with us. And I would imagine it's got to be the same way in Congress. You can't do it alone. You you have to build bring people together. But I want to do something fun here for just a second. Where's your favorite place in Oklahoma to go think? To go what? To go think, to contemplate.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's a good question. Um honestly I do most of my thinking at home, but uh you know, I I love the Oklahoma State uh Capitol building. I did a lot of things there as a state center, secretary of state. And Keating always had a philosophy that you know public buildings ought to elevate public life, but they ought to be and he began this process, which has actually given us one of I think the most attractive state capitals. He's the one that finally got the dome on the Capitol, and uh he did it without public money, wouldn't raise the money himself uh to make sure that that was done and started the beautification uh of the Capitol, which has continued under many subsequent governors and uh particularly my friends and I served with the late Charles Ford, who's the longest serving Republican uh state senator in Oklahoma history, he began a capital art program. So there's really pretty high-quality art all through the Capitol now. So many people did that. But again, I don't know that I've ever had one place. I just like Oklahoma. And uh uh so there's no particular place in a crisis that I feel the need to go off to. Okay. Uh coffee or tea? Uh, you know. But uh uh, you know, a different phase of my life. Look, I was a British historian, so I drank tea uh, you know, uh in college and whenever I got into coffee, which I now have to have every morning. Uh, but I got into coffee uh in politics. You know, you'd go around offices raising money or talking to camp, and everybody offer you coffee. And you know, you're not gonna be in Oklahoma in the 1980s no boom and ask for tea. You know, I got used to coffee and uh and loved it. And uh but uh yeah, I I'm very fond of burb and do. Okay. All right. Uh early bird or night owl? Uh both. Okay. I I get up uh very early. I mean, I'm usually up between 5 30 and 6, uh almost never later than that. I very seldom go to bed before midnight, one o'clock.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I I like uh I don't need a lot of sleep. I mean, I just never have. Uh you know, I don't certainly don't need anywhere near eight hours. It's usually for me four to six. Okay. And then uh favorite president. Lincoln. Uh I think um we certainly had some great presidents, and and there's no question uh there's no George Washington, there's no United States of America, and I think you have to say it. But I still think the greatest crisis in American history was the Civil War. Uh and it's when we hadn't to finally come to grips with the contradiction uh who we were and who we aspired to be, who we said we were going to be uh in the Declaration of Independence and the things we said in our own Constitution. Uh and you know, again, the bloodiest war in American history is American fighting. Americans, the greatest Dave Catfuel. One of my favorite battlefields, Antietam, uh, which I always tell people, I and I like to walk Civil War battlefields, but a lot of them. And being in Washington, if it's been shot over and it's in Virginia, Pennsylvania, or Maryland, or any of that immediate area I've been there, and some of the great battlefields will west, like Shiloh and uh certainly Vicksburg. But uh uh, you know, I it uh uh pretty special to to have those opportunities. But Lincoln, uh again, nobody defined America better. Uh nobody made us live up to who we should need more, nobody had a greater strain. I mean, I think even of the strain of the you know, Second World War, which killed the president in a sense, or the first world war that that broke the president in a sense, uh, you know, who who dealt with greater tragedy than Lincoln, uh, and who kept us together and who inspired us more. Uh so again, I think unquestionably my favorite president. And I think because he embodies the American experience so much, he's born on the frontier of his era. He's very humble circumstances, no formal education to speak of. Uh, you know, literally the most self-made man of self-made men is Lincoln. Because he, you know, yeah, I called Churchill the greatest person of the 20th century. I'm I believe Lincoln was the greatest person of the 19th century. But uh a woman was born to royalty and privilege, and he used those advantages and he had his challenges. Uh, from where Lincoln, I usually try to measure people, not from where they end up, from where they started. We don't we're all equal. We don't all get to start in the same place. Uh and I there are very few people that start in circumstances that did. We had a difficult relationship with his father. He lost his mother early. Uh he had all kinds of personal challenges as a young man. Uh he manages to make himself into a lawyer, and I turned out one of the really fine lawyers of his generation. He manages to drive from poverty uh to status. He, you know, pretty obscure even when he's successful in politics. I mean, Illinois politics, you know, he's not he has one term in Washington, D.C. in Congress, uh, and manages to turn that into the president becoming president and the most consequential president at the most challenging time in American history. Uh so uh I mean, uh w we are very blessed uh to have had him. Uh yeah, the United States has been that way. I I mean I do believe providentially we've tended to have great leaders when we needed great leaders. Uh it it's uh we've been very lucky in that regard. Um it you know, I think of Ronald Reagan in my lifetime, I never saw a greater I uh matter of fact, I will never forget. And I was a Reagan guy, Reagan State Director, and was re-elected. I was the executive director of the SIC Party, and we were very Reagan state in uh 1980. But I remember uh the uh failed uh effort to release the Iranian hostages in April, I think it was in April of uh 1980. I was driving up uh uh Lincoln Boulevard going to Republican headquarters, it was on 23rd Street, uh just off uh uh just immediately east of the state capitol, uh West of the State Capitol, excuse me. And the news broke. And you know, we were at that time we were living through double-digit interest rates, double-digit inflation, our economy was a mess, the Russians were in Afghanistan, you know, just nothing seemed to. And I thought, yeah, yeah, what is that? We can't even pull off this, you know, rescue message. I just, you know, you thought maybe if eight years later, the kind the Cold War is on the verge of ending, with us winning. It was, you know, that was the dominant geopolitical struggle of my lifetime. And I grew up in the midst. That's what my dad was involved in, uh, was that sort of thing, and my uh other members of my family. Uh and we won that with the greatest economy in the world. We're, you know, uh the only superpower left on the planet, just about. And uh it's uh pretty extraordinary uh uh presidency. Every now and then you get the president that does that. You know, Lincoln did it, it's the supreme crisis mole. Russ Reagan did it uh in his way, FDR and the depression, and certainly not a Republican exclusive, but uh again, you know, no George Washington, no United States of America. We had the right guy, uh right guy, partly because he didn't want to be the president of the United States. Could have been the king. He didn't want to do that either. Exactly. He wanted to get back to Mount Vernon and his family and uh live the life of a a gentleman in Virginia. Uh yeah, it just we have an amazing history, but again, we do have a talent for producing the right leadership at the right time.
SPEAKER_01We do, and and it and it is providential. And uh I I look at our country now and and uh I I'm a fan of Re. And uh he's arguably my my favorite president in the 20th century. And uh I would agree with Lincoln. Uh I've toured Ford's uh theater and just standing there taking it in, trying to picture what it was like and the sacrifices that people have made for us. And I I I stand in awe of of men and women like that. Um let's see. So what would you say to the veteran, to the public servant, to the person who's working hard, walking through grief, criticism, loneliness, uncertainty? What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_00Well, the first thing I'd say to any veteran is thank you. Uh look, uh I did not serve. My dad didn't, my brother didn't, my grandfather didn't, my uncle did. Uh but I have a keen appreciation for people that put their lives on the line to protect us and to make sure that we have all the extraordinary blessings that we have here. The right to live in freedom, the right to go as far as your abilities and your worth ethic and take you, and uh security that we take for granted that so many other people around the world never enjoy, uh, and the costs that's associated with that. So, but I think you're always in the debt of uh people that, again, put on a uniform, pick up a weapon, uh, do whatever it takes to defend the country uh so that the rest of us benefit from. Second thing I I I think I would say is uh to people that are you know in a challenge situation, and and maybe people that have failed at something, remember this is the great country of second chances. You know, we live in a place where you can fail and succeed later. Uh and you're you're gonna have failures, you're gonna you can fail personally, not just I don't get a task done. We don't all measure up every single day. There's certainly some days in my life I look back on and say, why was I that stupid? Or why was I that thoughtless? And why can't I learn from that? And I just always, you know, we have a God of second chances, we have a country of second chances. Not many people have those two things. Uh and uh and we all uh you know, also if you have had a tough time, yeah, what can we do as a people in society to help you? I mean to really help you, not to give you something, but it's the classic, you know, hand up, not a handout. What can we do to put you in a position where uh, you know, you have that second chance that to be the person or accomplish the thing that you wanted to do. I think that's what makes Americans uh uh a special people, and it makes this country a special place. We do that more and better than anybody else in the world. Uh and I think that about our faith, too. I think, again, uh if you don't believe in forgiveness and redemption, you're sure not a Christian because we all get it, we all require it. Uh and uh we're all fortunate enough to believe in a God and the Savior that provided those things for us. Uh and uh, you know, so I would tell people again, just don't quit, don't give up. You're you're always amazed if you just keep working through things, if you could just uh, you know, and and pray. And God is a God that answers prayers. I've seen that in my own life. Uh, you know, I ended up in politics, I think, in some ways. I mean, uh it was this was not a great crisis, but uh as I was going through graduate school, I was doing really well. Uh, but there was a uh collapse in the history market, and you like could apply for a job, and I remember once getting in filed five, there were over 200 applicants to be a British Torian. And uh, I was pretty good, but I and I prayed, I prayed, you know, well, what do I need to do to be successful? And uh, you know, I'm not doing something right. And you know, magically that's what politics opened up to. You know, it's like, well, I guess, you know, and I and I thought it was a detour. I mean, I thought it was, well, I'll do this, but I'm coming back. I mean, I'm finishing my degree, which I did, uh, published a couple articles on, but politics was it for me, which is not something I set out to do. I mean, I always say my whole political career, I've been a state senator, I've been a secretary of state, I've been the top staffer at both the Congressional Committee and the Republican National Committee in pretty important elections, a very successful consultant. I have a company that I still own a piece of, but still does it, that's over 40 years old, pulls for 16 different state chambers of commerce, that's really high quality, really good work. Uh, you know, that was evidently where I was supposed to go, not where I thought I was supposed to go. I still think I'd have been a pretty good historian, but and I loved it, but it just wasn't the place. But, you know, yeah, I lived in a country. What do you know about politics? Well, not a lot. My mom was a state center. Have you ever done anything in polling? No, and I became one of the best pollsters in the United States. And I didn't go to college to learn it, I just learned it. Uh and then proved it uh by by doing good work for a lot of years. Uh, and then thought, well, honestly, when I went to Congress, I thought my career collectively is over. My job is to elect other people, not to serve in elected office anymore. Uh, and then that door magically opened up at the last minute. And uh, you know, I always believe God gives you a door to walk, you know, you walk through. I mean, it's it's usually there for a purpose.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you know, as a veteran, I I appreciate when people say thank you for your service, but we all serve and it's all interconnected, and the military uh can't serve without Congress supporting them, and Congress can't serve without the public supporting. And so it's all interchange. But uh Congressman, again, I really appreciate the time. Uh I I've enjoyed getting to to know you, and uh again, I'm fascinated with uh your uncle and his service, and uh and again I appreciate you very much, so much so. These are very exclusive. You can buy them on my website. But uh coffee cup, even though I walk. And uh I love this. Yeah, as you drink uh your coffee or uh vitamin B, as I like to call it.
SPEAKER_00I drink a lot of coffee, no worries. I don't have a mug every day. I just uh start out with about 20 ounces. All right. Well good, well, thank you so much. Thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. What a privilege for me.
unknownAll right.
SPEAKER_01Well, hey, thanks for tuning in to the podcast, even though I walk. I am your host, Steve Mills, and I've been here with Congressman Tom Cole. Continue to uh to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for more notifications. And as always, keep walking.