AI for peace – using artificial intelligence to manage conflict and maintain peace

AI for peace – using artificial intelligence to manage conflict and maintain peace
With numerous ongoing conflicts in places like Sudan, Israel-Iran, Gaza, Ukraine, and Syria, peace can seem scarce in today's world. However, artificial intelligence could play a role is managing wars. A new book titled “AI for Peace” provides a roadmap for using artificial intelligence to promote peace. While machine learning is often portrayed negatively, it has real potential for forecasting and preventing violence, combating hate speech, and addressing the root causes of conflict. Branka Panic, co-author, joins us to discuss how AI can be used to maintain peace.

World Password Day – make yours secure
We’re sure you’ve probably heard it all before, but just in case.  As World Password Day approaches Gareth and Ghislaine take a look at what makes a good, secure password.  We also hear from one of our listeners'  who works in IT infrastructure for a major global firm and we get his advice on making passwords simple, easy to remember but almost unhackable.

The programme is presented by Gareth Mitchell and the studio expert is Ghislaine Boddington.

More on this week's stories:
AI for Peace
World Password Day

Chapters

• 3:50 AI for Peace
• 17:49 World Password Day

Transcript

00:00:00 Gareth Mitchell 

Hello everybody this is the Somewhere on Earth podcast and it's Tuesday the 30th of April 2024. As we released this wonderful podcast into the world. Though we say it ourselves wonderful. There you go. So modest. We are in our studio here in London and we have at least one voice from Mexico City today. 

00:00:21 Gareth Mitchell 

And one of those voices from London alongside mine is Ghislaine Boddington expert commentator here with your analysis as well Ghislaine. And and I sometimes rather amorphously call you an expert commentator. 

00:00:33 Gareth Mitchell 

How? How, how should I refer to for the top, then today? 

00:00:38 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yes, no. Well I am. I am. I am. Although you know I'm not necessarily a total expert on all these subjects, but I've done my research and I'm ready to go and I'm looking forward to our discussions about it, Gareth, which we can always buzz off each other. And of course the people that are coming to speak to us. 

00:00:38 Gareth Mitchell 

Are you happy with expert commentator? Yeah. 

00:00:45 Gareth Mitchell 

Yeah, sure. 

00:00:56 Gareth Mitchell 

That's how it's going to work. So to ease us into things. Then what about some of the things that have been on your mind this week Ghislaine? Do you have any gossip for us or do you want to share? What's been occupying you as it were? 

00:01:08 Ghislaine Boddington 

I've been bubbling and bubbling along on and positively feeling positive about new innovations and new initiatives, I can feel starting to really emerge and make sense, post lockdown. And one of the projects I've been working on linked to my university, 

00:01:26 Ghislaine Boddington 

Greenwich has been it's called the Enterprise Challenge, and all the students across whole university can apply to it with a new business idea. 

00:01:35 Ghislaine Boddington 

And, umm, we had a wonderful time. I was mentoring one of the one of the students and she did win a prize. The Social Impact Prize, Siobhan Abdurahman with her Buddy App, which is a safety app for women to be able to go out to music events, to go meet up with each other, look after each other and get home safe. Yeah, but also some very lovely ideas, like one around alcohol free and how to get become alcohol-free 

00:01:58 Ghislaine Boddington 

and another one, an engineering one Quick Switch, which is a special device for an SD card which allows you to use it on the move and never runs out of space on your camera. So but there was 149 of these ideas and they were just, they gave me a lot of hope and a lot of buzz. 

00:02:08 Gareth Mitchell 

Sure thing. Exactly. And and technologies that we hope are going to see, you know live beyond the enterprise challenge and end up in the world doing great things and quite a good tech for good 

00:02:20 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yes. 

00:02:25 Gareth Mitchell 

element there obviously, but with some business plans and some enterprise nouse behind them as well. 

00:02:25 Ghislaine Boddington 

Absolutely, yeah. 

00:02:30 Ghislaine Boddington 

And they've all got little start up funds now, too. So those three were the were the winners, actually. So, yeah. So congratulations to them. They're on their way. Yeah. 

00:02:33 Gareth Mitchell 

Awesome. 

00:02:36 Gareth Mitchell 

Oh, love that. Yeah. And the idea of you mentoring as well, that's very grand. 

00:02:41 Ghislaine Boddington 

I really enjoyed mentoring Siobhan, it was great to work together, yeah. 

00:02:43 Gareth Mitchell 

Good on you and and her as well. OK, let's jump in. 

00:02:52 Gareth Mitchell 

And coming up today. 

00:02:56 Gareth Mitchell 

Well, a theme that we all really need in this edition, especially if you happen to live somewhere mired by conflict. We're talking about AI for Peace. It's an antidote to all the usual discussion about algorithmic warfare and hate speech and the like. A new book lays out a road map for harnessing AI to help alleviate conflict and make the world a more peaceful place. 

00:03:18 Gareth Mitchell 

Also in this edition we're celebrating World Password Day. Yes, there is such a thing and it is this week.  Prepare to feel ever so pleased with yourself if you have separate strong passwords for all your accounts. But on the other hand are some of us, perhaps skulking at the back of the class if we still let ourselves down by setting rubbish, rather weak passwords and then hoping that nothing bad will happen. Well it's all up for discussion right here on the Somewhere on Earth podcast. 

00:03:50 Gareth Mitchell 

Sudan, Israel, Iran, Gaza, Ukraine, Syria.  Yes, so many conflict zones, so little peace. So may we take some solace from a new road map for harnessing the benefits of AI to help make the world a more peaceful place. After all, we're often hearing all about the evils of machine learning. 

00:04:10 Gareth Mitchell 

But from forecasting political violence to fighting hate speech AI has much to offer in tackling conflict, and the sources of conflict. These peaceful ideas have come together in the appropriately titled book AI for Peace. One of its authors is Branka Panic, and she joins us from Mexico City. Franca is also director of the organisation AI for Peace. 

00:04:33 Gareth Mitchell 

Welcome along to Somewhere on Earth, Branca. 

00:04:37 Branka Panic 

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. 

00:04:39 Gareth Mitchell 

Good to have you along. So one of the things you talk about, there's a whole suite of technologies called PeaceTech. So we've heard of the likes of Fintech, for instance, and climate tech. So PeaceTech, tell me a bit more about that. 

00:04:53 Branka Panic 

Sure. PeaceTech is an entire set of technologies that peace builders starting started looking at or started exploring in their own work.  

00:05:04 Branka Panic 

So early on, as just the use of mobile phones or in some settings, even radio, where people are predominantly using radio as a source of information, the radio can be a very powerful tool for informing communities about the upcoming violence or giving them ideas how to sustain peace in their own society. 

00:05:29 Branka Panic 

So for more than a decade now, peace builders were adding to this. I like to call this toolbox of of a peace builder searching for different technologies that can be useful in their work and AI. We are exploring AI now as another tool in this toolbox. 

00:05:49 Gareth Mitchell 

So give me a few examples of how AI might be part of this toolbox. 

00:05:55 Branka Panic 

Well, starting from conflict prediction, I think conflict prediction traditionally has been an idea, and the goal of every piece builder. We want to know what is happening with what we want to know when the crisis is coming in a certain region in a certain part of a country, and we want to be ready for what is coming. This is applicable to peace builders, but also for humanitarian actors who are also using different artificial intelligence tool to make sure that we have 

00:06:29 Branka Panic 

different early warnings and to use these early warnings for early action, so I would definitely start with conflict prediction, but there are many other examples we are using and showing in the book and there on our own work such as hate speech and utilisation, different technologies in understanding 

00:06:49 Branka Panic 

what kind of consequences hate speech is having in online spaces, but also what kind of consequences this can bring to physical spaces. 

00:06:59 Branka Panic 

Then human rights protection. This is a very exciting field and we most often hear about different negative applications of AI and consequences for human rights, which is a  really important field, and we definitely cover this in the book as well. But we are also looking into potentials of different AI technologies to strengthen the work of human rights defenders. 

00:07:24 Branka Panic 

Another very interesting field is the intersection of conflict and climate. I think this one, comparatively to conflict prevention is much earlier than the use of technologies. It's the essence even of diplomacy work of relationships between countries to predict what is going to happen, what actions of other countries will be, while in the case of climate, this is something new, the world is struggling with. 

00:07:53 Gareth Mitchell 

Yeah. What you mean, because like populations getting displaced because of climate change, it could be those kinds of things of, of course, that the balance of where different resources are in the world, that's very much affected by climate change. Would AI be looking into all these factors and using that as some kind of predictor? 

00:08:08 Branka Panic 

Absolutely, exactly the migration or displacement is one of the very important elements where the technology is looking at, but also we are overlapping this with other factors that are happening in the society and this is this added value that technology can bring  

00:08:26 Branka Panic 

these patterns with economical changes, natural disaster shocks, the social mechanisms in the country, the political institutions, elections, we can overlap all of this with the data science. 

00:08:45 Branka Panic 

And try to see those patterns that human eye will not necessarily always catch, and it's quite a new field as well. So we are not over promising here, that's why we are clearly saying this is not a silver bullets for silver bullet for solving all of the problems, but it's definitely a potential tool that we think we should use more in the future. 

00:09:10 Gareth Mitchell 

Worthy of investigation and and highly encouraging. Ghislaine. 

00:09:14 Ghislaine Boddington 

I mean, it's fascinating and and I think you know absolutely it is a very new field and you're right, it's, you know these layers of data coming together and patterns. We need time, don't we to to be able to work with these and see what can happen. Now I’m going to ask you about whether you've got any examples of AI being used with humans, you know like co-piloting alongside the beginning of conflict resolutions, and whether there's diplomacy or possibilities to look at resolution for war. A very obvious question  at this moment, I guess. 

00:09:48 Branka Panic 

I I think this is a fascinating question because there is still not a agreement in the field of how and in which sense we can actually benefit from using artificial intelligence and data science and diplomacy because diplomacy  

00:10:05 Branka Panic 

is essentially the human endeavour, right? It depends so much on human relationships, on building the relationships between countries, including the cultural dimension of this,. There is a big question if AI can actually understand all of these nuances, and I think a lot of change happened with the 

00:10:26 Branka Panic 

start of generative AI and all of the tools that come to place with natural language processing advancements and this is where we see first applications as well, in the diplomacy. 

00:10:41 Branka Panic 

We don't cover all of them in the book, which is really important to say because the book is just the primary. It's just the beginning to to attract the attention of people, to really understand what are the potentials out there and one of them I can mention outside of the book, which is definitely the work of the United Nations, which can  

00:11:02 Branka Panic 

be covered in one book of its own and many applications in the diplomacy with the intersection of artificial intelligence or different technologies such as virtual reality. 

00:11:15 Branka Panic 

Where the technology already proved useful, and just to give one concrete example of large scale facilitated dialogues in the peace process in Libya where the communities were asked about their opinions in the peace process. So peace processes are usually very concentrated on small number of people that can get that place at the table, and this technology is now opening a completely new avenue of consultations with 

00:11:47 Branka Panic 

broader area of communities and also it's giving potentially, we will see in the future how realistic this is, but potentially it's giving an opportunity to facilitate these dialogues in different languages and different dialogues as well. And the United Nations team did a great work in Libya of actually building the system that facilitated these dialogues in different dialects of Arabic language. 

00:12:13 Gareth Mitchell 

So that as a kind of mediation element there and Ghislaine you're interested in that as well, aren't you? This kind of AI as a mediator? 

00:12:19 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yes, I really like that your answer there and the example you've given, because this is exactly where peace negotiations, you know of human, human to human do go wrong. And you're right, it's a very small community of people who have a say in what's happening and they've also potentially  

00:12:37 Ghislaine Boddington 

they're they're influenced by their own political sways or, you know, their careers or whatever else. So the fact that that, that example you gave means that it can be right down to grassroots communities. And using the dialogues that they they used using the languages they're using to get opinions. And I guess from very local areas too and smaller regions and seeing what opinions 

00:13:02 Ghislaine Boddington 

there are in one side of a country, say to another, and then that actually is starting to bring together potential peace negotiation points. Yeah, that can be used between, you know, obviously with human negotiation. And that's why I'm very interested in the co-piloting of the two together. 

00:13:20 Branka Panic 

There is a big challenge if you can take this as a conversation. There is a big challenge as well there that we want people to be aware of, that so many of these communities still don't have an access to the technology. 

00:13:33 Branka Panic 

They don't have an access to the mobile phone or access to Internet or to the laptop. Sometimes, especially in context that we are working in in conflict context, the communities don't even have access to electricity, so there are huge challenges still in this place and this is why we are advocating  

00:13:54 Branka Panic 

in AI for Peace and the entire broader community around AI for Peace is, of course first advocating for bridging the digital  

00:14:01 Branka Panic 

gap and we are trying to invest in this through all of our projects acknowledging that still not all of us have access to the technology, but we also see a huge potential of this technology also bridging this gap. 

00:14:16 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And then you know on top of that, alongside access to the hardware and the software and data access as digital literacy too, which comes into the equation there too. So there's a whole set of layers of education to be able to enable people to have a voice, yeah, to, to have a say into this, yeah. 

00:14:36 Gareth Mitchell 

And and Branca, then you call this a road map. So what is it a road map to essentially? Is it just an understanding more about this stuff? Is it about making sure the right people are sitting around a a diverse group of people are sitting around the table and developing these systems? Is it about rolling them out into places where conflict could be an imminent risk? I don't know. What? Where does this road map lead to? 

00:14:58 Branka Panic 

It's, I would say both, but with the caution around the last one, with the caution around quick deployment of solutions and that's why we are really emphasising this ethical dimension. But first to stress, this is really a, we call it a primer, a road map, right, a primer for people, for two groups of people,  

00:15:18 Branka Panic 

for peace builders who don't necessarily have an access or knowledge about AI. We want to add this additional tool in their toolbox, right? We want to let them know what is happening in this artificial intelligence field. We want to demystify what this technology means, what what is happening in our own field of peace building if we go beyond the things that we are reading in newspapers. 

00:15:44 Branka Panic 

And we want to give these concrete examples so we are giving a bit of a theory, but most of the primaries practise examples that of organisations from different sectors, from academia, governments, private sectors but civil society organisations as well that are already experimenting. 

00:16:04 Branka Panic 

or applying different data-driven methodologies, data science, natural language processing in advancing their mission, mission and vision. So we want to inspire peace builders to think into the the direction of artificial intelligence. 

00:16:20 Gareth Mitchell 

And presumably to to be there to help them and and just briefly, Branka, if you will, just that last point. 

00:16:25 Branka Panic 

The the just the second target group because it's very important for us and those are the AI people, data science people who maybe never even got a contact with the peace building or peace. We want to get them excited about applying their skills in a very responsible and ethical way so we can together advance the applications of artificial intelligence in peace building. 

00:16:48 Gareth Mitchell 

Branka, well, thank you. And we'll hear more from you in the subscription extra of this podcast just before we leave this, though Ghislaine, there is an important date on the   calendar relating to all this, isn't there? 

00:16:57 Ghislaine Boddington 

There is and Branca mentioned how much the UN is doing in this area of responsible AI,  AI for peace, but also they have a global summit and and it's at the end of May. 

00:17:09 Ghislaine Boddington 

Which is entirely about AI for good, and I had a really good look through the programme and it's fascinating and I think I'm really with Branca there, about actually what what, you know, some it's like that with multiple examples and her book with multiple examples can actually show AI AI makers, coders etc what they can do, yeah, which would be solutions and positive side of the world rather than working on new conflict war games for for for teenagers. 

00:17:36 Gareth Mitchell 

That would be nice, wouldn't it? OK Ghislaine. Alright. Well, that's quite cheery by our standard, wasn't it that that, that little chat there, you know, but very serious and purposeful as well. So I'm not in any way diminishing it. But you know what I mean.  Right now then. A bit of a subject change, but here we go. It's World Password Day this week. That's on Thursday the 2nd of May. 

00:17:57 Gareth Mitchell 

So if you're listening to this around the time the podcast comes out. Then yeah, it's going to be World Password Day and the day is all about you. If you still use the same old password for multiple accounts, you know who you are if you do that. Or perhaps if you don't change the default password on a new device. So if you have lane easy to guess login codes and you don't change them regularly enough,  

00:18:17 Gareth Mitchell 

or perhaps you list them all, please tell me you don't do this, but list them all on a  spreadsheet titled passwords. Then you definitely need, Ghislaine has her head in her hands here, then you will need World Password Day just to get you on the right track. 

00:18:32 Gareth Mitchell 

Which is really what it's about. It's a kind of educational day. It's designed to get us all to change our ways to get a bit more secure or a lot more secure in some cases. And of course, it could just help you avoid being extorted or conned or having your identity stolen or your teeth falling out. Oh, goodness knows what else could happen. 

00:18:52 Gareth Mitchell 

So, umm, Ghislaine, what about?  So we're gonna jump in with you on this one, then? Do you need to take the password pledge? Because that's one part of this  

00:19:01 Gareth Mitchell 

this World Password Day. I'll tell everybody about the pledge in a moment. But or are you sitting there on your moral high ground with your password app and your two factor authentication all set up and you're completely bomb proof? 

00:19:15 Ghislaine Boddington 

Well, I have to be honest. I have been a lot more careful the last three or four years, yeah. But prior to that, which is another ten years or 15 years of passwords, 

00:19:26 Ghislaine Boddington 

I haven't had time to go back through them all and check everything because if I look in my password vault, I've probably got 180 different pass, you know, things. So you know, yeah. But I have learned to be a lot careful and I've listened to the inputs that we've had in various points in this show and other shows and and our special expert, Bill Thompson, who is  

00:19:32 Gareth Mitchell 

I bet. 

00:19:34 Gareth Mitchell 

So many different accounts. 

00:19:46 Ghislaine Boddington 

very clear on all this. And one of the things I remember him saying, this is really about backing up as well is to make sure that you back up on removable hard drives, yeah, that are not part of your overall system. 

00:19:58 Ghislaine Boddington 

And that you back up your passwords there too, yeah, so that you're not caught in a viral. If the virus gets you, don't lose all that stuff. It's separate. He calls it airspace,  doesn't it? Between the laptop and your backup system, you know? So, but yes, there's lots of things aren't Gareth lots and lots of things, yeah. 

00:20:09 Gareth Mitchell 

Oh yeah. 

00:20:15 Gareth Mitchell 

Yeah, I mean loads of things, yeah. And I mentioned that pledge. So the the people behind World Password Day, they've just come up with this one page pledge. 

00:20:24 Gareth Mitchell 

And they're just challenging everyone to go through this. So and and it's for people to pledge, for instance, that they will create strong and unique passwords using three random words. The pledge also says I will use a different password for each account. And the other one is to turn on that second layer of security. 

00:20:44 Gareth Mitchell 

So three, you know, quite simple but profoundly important things to do there as part of that password pledge. And and also we have heard from one of our listeners who wants to remain anonymous, but he sent us a few of his thoughts. He's obviously good at all this kind of stuff. So here we go. Let's just listen to this first clip. 

00:21:03 Anonymous listener 

Passwords can usually be cracked by social engineering. Getting somebody's date of birth, or finding out on some social media platform, data breaches in companies, people guessing passwords just by random,  

00:21:18 Anonymous listener 

or by Malware or what we know in the trader as physical brute force cracking, guessing every single possible letter combination. That's why we need long and strong passwords. But these passwords don't have to be 10, 16 characters long with multiple different characters. Letters, special characters, numbers. 

00:21:42 Anonymous listener 

I personally recommend the use of multiple words, so 3 or 4 words will give you the length that you need, but if you can throw in a word from a different language as well, then this makes things like dictionary attacks, which is a list of words which are tried,  

00:22:03 Anonymous listener 

much harder to guess because these dictionaries tend to consist of words of a single language. 

00:22:09 Gareth Mitchell 

Oh, that I hadn't thought of that, actually, including a word from a different language. Right. So cue some Welsh language pass(word). Nobody's ever going to guess a Welsh language password, are they? 

00:22:14 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yeah, that's clever. 

00:22:16 Ghislaine Boddington 

No, you've you've got it sorted, yes. 

00:22:19 Gareth Mitchell 

Whether I'll be able to kind of remember exactly how to type the password is another thing. Just lots of L's. So Ghislaine, you've been looking at some stunning statistics around all this, just in terms of how many gadgets are out there, and obviously all the different passwords involved. It's a big international issue. 

00:22:33 Ghislaine Boddington 

I know, I know. 

00:22:36 Gareth Mitchell 

Yeah. 

00:22:36 Ghislaine Boddington 

No, I know that. I mean, there's different stats in different places, but it it it it seems to be generally accepted. There's about 8 billion mobile gadgets in use around the world. In fact, I think probably more because there's other stats that say there’s two for each of us, you know, but but 300, three thousand billion passwords in use, yeah. And of course, one of the key things one has to say upfront on this is, 

00:22:57 Gareth Mitchell 

Whoa. 

00:23:02 Ghislaine Boddington 

That we're all working, our working our guts out to try and make sure we are secure etcetera. Most people are, but actually we do know and it's generally accepted that the manufacturers could do more to protect us at the back end. But of course, that and and also as it's happening, but that of course costs, money, staffing etcetera you know so. 

00:23:23 Ghislaine Boddington 

And then a multi factor authentication stuff, or two factor twin factor authentication  like using a password and your fingerprint, etcetera. This is becoming more and more used, isn't it? Do you? Do you have it on some of yours. 

00:23:37 Gareth Mitchell 

Is that nearly all my accounts now, you have to put in an SMS password and in some cases you have to do at least two SMS passwords alongside your usual one, you know, so which is great. 2 or even 3 factor authentication. So that's the way it's going. 

00:23:48 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yeah. 

00:23:53 Ghislaine Boddington 

And some of them with biometrics, which of course you need to be careful of because they can be really helpful in relationship to stopping Ransomware attacks et cetera. But also you shouldn't give your biometric information to companies if possible. And if they're asking for it, yeah, you keep it to you, it's yours. It's your body. You know, so. 

00:24:08 Gareth Mitchell 

So you keep it all on your device. 

00:24:10 

Yeah. 

00:24:12 Gareth Mitchell 

And you only get one set of fingerprints, don't you? Or one retina? You know, two retinas? Yeah. 

00:24:14 Ghislaine Boddington 

Yeah, you do. Wait. Yeah. Once it's gone and there is there's there's definitely on the dark web. There are fingerprints for sale. So one has to be very careful. Yeah. 

00:24:20 Gareth Mitchell 

Ohh goodness. 

00:24:22 Gareth Mitchell 

Absolutely. And you mentioned there on devices as well and in fact in 2022, the UK brought into law legislation that prohibits default passwords on networks devices. 

00:24:34 Ghislaine Boddington 

Right. Yes, yeah. 

00:24:35 Gareth Mitchell 

So you know it's a step forward there in that particular law. I'm sure there are equivalents in other countries. Just before we go, let's have another word or a few words or a few pass words of wisdom from our listener. 

00:24:37 

Yeah. 

00:24:45 Anonymous listener 

If you're going to do something like picking 4 words, then I would also suggest adding a number or special character within a middle of a word so that word no longer becomes a dictionary word. Taking the word house for instance HOUSE. 

00:25:04 Anonymous listener 

You may add a letter, a number, or a special character in the middle of it, so House would become Hou * SE. 

00:25:14 Anonymous listener 

So if you were to pick one, you could use house book chair and then the word for tree in a foreign language, add the special character, add a number. So if you have a set of rules that, say after the 4th letter you add a number or a special character and then also start and end your password with special characters. Then all you would need to do is remember 3 or 4 words and we can type words faster than typing 8,9,10 or even possibly 16 special characters. 

00:25:58 Gareth Mitchell 

There are more top advice there from our listener. 

00:26:00 Ghislaine Boddington 

Wow, that's very, very clever. I'm gonna have to try and remember that. It's about patterning, isn't it? It's about patterning. 

00:26:02 

Appreciate that. 

00:26:05 Gareth Mitchell 

It is, yeah, it's just and having a kind of way of doing it, I suppose that obviously you know yourself, but a password hacker isn't going to know.  And then a few of those little tricks. Putting in asterisks here or there to make it a non-dictionary word. Yeah. Get it.  

00:26:18 Gareth Mitchell 

Right, right. I'm going to do that password pledge because I'm so not on my moral high ground here as well. Another bit of advice, by the way, coming from World Password Day is when you can to store your passwords in your browser, which is kind of I'm doing most of the time already. Really. Yeah. So all right. Lots to think about there. Let's think about it even more in the Podcast 

00:26:31 Ghislaine Boddington 

OK, right. 

00:26:38 Gareth Mitchell 

Extra Subscription version, where we'll have a bit more from Branka and more chat from Ghislaine and I and we'll bring you some cakes or something as well if we can manage that on the podcast. So there we are. As for this edition, thanks for being with us. You probably know all the socials by now, but on the e-mail, we always like emails, hello at somewhere on Earth.co 

00:26:56 Gareth Mitchell 

that's hello at somewhere on earth.co  WhatsApp works out well. Code 44 for the UK, 748-632-9484. That's code 447486329484 and just about everywhere else. If you look up SOEPtech or soaptech. Before we go though, let's do the credits. 

00:27:18 Gareth Mitchell 

Let’s see who's behind the glass there, we've got Keziah is over there, making it all sound good. We've got Dylan on the desk here as well. Is Callum still here. He was just in a minute ago, but well credit Callum anyway. He's a good guy. 

00:27:29 Gareth Mitchell 

And we have production managing everything is Liz Tuohy, the producer is Ania Lichtarowicz, and providing brilliant expertise and wonderful company in the studio. Ghislaine Boddington. And you're the listener, the most important person in the room. Thanks for listening. Bye, bye. 

ENDS