Untitled Episode

How is artificial intelligence reshaping justice and creative expression? Join us on this compelling episode of Somewhere on Earth, as we engage with leading international human rights lawyer Susie Allegra. Learn from Susie’s expert insights on the reliability of legal chatbots, the pitfalls of automation bias, and the ethical dilemmas of AI-generated legal submissions. Susie also brings attention to the concerning working conditions for content moderation staff, raising critical questions about the human cost of AI in the legal realm.

We then transition to the world of art and climate activism, featuring musician BT Wolf and artist Beattie Wolfe. BT Wolf underscores the irreplaceable value of human imagination in art, particularly in these challenging times. Beattie Wolfe captivates us with her award-winning project "Smoke and Mirrors," which visualizes six decades of methane levels while critiquing the deceptive practices of major oil companies. Wolfe's emotional journey and innovative artistry offer a powerful narrative on the intersection of climate change and creativity. Tune in for a thought-provoking blend of technology, law, and art that promises to enlighten and inspire.

Transcript

AI Impact on Justice Access

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello everybody . I'm Gareth and this is Somewhere on Earth . Joining me today for some expert commentary is Gillen Boddington . Hello Gillen , how are you ?

Speaker 3 0:19

I'm very good , gareth , and really happy to be joining you for this great show .

Speaker 1 0:23

Yeah , so much to get into , just because we like to have a little gossip at the top . Just really quickly , I saw a Link trainer today and you can ask me what it is if you want .

Speaker 3 0:32

Well , I'm going to have to . Gareth , I'm sorry .

Speaker 1 0:39

I'm not a trainer expert , so tell me what a Link trainer is . All right . So for people who might be thinking , I'm talking about athletic footwear it talking about athletic footwear , it is something a little bit different .

Speaker 1 0:51

It's actually a very early quite possibly the first flight simulator for training pilots and , yeah , I've been to a rather brilliant aviation museum this afternoon . Isn't that cool and that is yeah . And so long before you had these very elaborate flight simulators that you see in videos and stuff that they train airline pilots on these days , this was a thing , thing that , even quite affectionately , people thought it looked a little bit like a child's toy aeroplane and it was standing on rather than hydraulic rams or whatever these ones are these days . It was almost like some organ bellows , basically . And that's no coincidence because the guy who invented it , a chap called Ed Link , hence the term Link trainer .

Speaker 1 1:25

By the way this is in the late 20s , early 30s . He came from an organ building family and background and so to get the Link trainer to rock and backwards and forwards and to mimic the movements of an aircraft , it was standing on a bed of air that was pumped in by some organ bellows and it made a real difference , like training pilots in the 30s and into the Second World War , because they could do a whole load of ground training where it was nice and safe , in the simulator , and do all their mistakes on the ground , hopefully so that they'd ace it when they got up in the skies when it really mattered .

Speaker 3 1:59

Wow , this is like probably one of the earliest haptic interfaces where you've got feedback from your actual actions in the simulated environment . Yeah , and this is from the 1920s 30s . Yeah , that's right .

Speaker 1 2:11

Really early yeah .

Speaker 3 2:13

Post First World War and leading up to training for the Second World War pilots .

Speaker 1 2:18

You've got it . Yeah , the Link trainer . So there we are . If anybody's intrigued by that and you should be everybody it's an amazing story and just the story of Ed Link and organs and how it all came together , and then just look it up , so it's the Link trainer , there you are .

Speaker 3 2:31

I will be . I'll be looking it up straight away . I thought you were going to talk about connected shoes . Oh right , linked trainers . I was like , right , ok , we're off trainers , we're into training here . Yes , great .

Speaker 1 2:44

Maybe we'll do that next week . We'll see there we are . So I've set some homework . Go and look it up , everybody , It'll be worth it .

Speaker 1 2:49

And here comes the rest of the show and coming up today we're talking about the legal climate and the well , the actual climate . In this edition , we're looking at AI through the lens of the law , or at least how a leading human rights lawyer thinks about questions around access to justice , our reliance on the machines , and whether artificial intelligence is or should be rewriting the law textbooks . And musician Beattie Wolfe is here to tell us about her work in combining art and data to say some scary and important things about that highly potent greenhouse gas , methane . It's all right here on the Somewhere on Earth podcast . First up , then . Access to justice is what matters when you want to change systems and defend your human rights . Those are not my words I wish I could write that well but those of leading international human rights lawyer , Susie Allegra in her new book Human Rights Robot Wrongs .

Speaker 1 3:57

Now , that quote I've just read out comes from a chapter all about the poor working conditions endured by content moderation staff working for technology companies , and the whole book really is about how AI is affecting our human rights , and the book's taken the whole discussion of our relationship with the machines in all kinds of fascinating directions , like what about care bots ? Is AI good enough to draft legal submissions ? Does automation bias make us want to trust the technology more than we should ? Well , I'm not sure if we'll get through all those questions . We've got quite a list to get through , but we'll do our best . If we don't hit those particular ones , You'll just have to read the book . People Susie , welcome along to the podcast .

Speaker 5 4:34

Thanks , it's a pleasure to be here .

Speaker 1 4:36

Marvellous , right then . So you would think that things have never been better for kind of democratising people's access to justice . You know , we have legal advice chatbots that you could use for free or for not very much . There are AI conveyances to help you buy a home . Large language models can help you draft letters to lawyers . These are good times for justice , thanks to AI , aren't they ?

Speaker 5 5:00

Well , I think one of the really big problems when you talk about AI in the justice system is whether or not it's actually reliable . So you might be able to get a legal chatbot to give you really convincing sounding legal advice , but whether or not it'll have anything to do with the actual law is a different matter entirely . And there's been some research on legal analysis by chatbots of different flavours which seems to indicate that even when they're fed on actual case law , their analysis of that case law is wrong roughly 60 to 80% of the time . So you know , if you were paying a lawyer for that , you'd be pretty disappointed with those kind of results on accuracy in the law .

Speaker 1 5:45

Yeah . So because of this tendency of these large language models to they call it hallucinating , don't they where they ? They'll come up with a load of stuff and it looks completely plausible . But then when you have a legal eagle like you looking through it , you think , hmm , I smell a rat .

Speaker 5 6:00

Well , absolutely . I mean , they're really just probability generators , so they are just predicting what's the most likely next word rather than providing any kind of actual legal analysis or intelligence . In fact , when looking at how the law might be huge reductions in legal aid and it's very difficult for people to get serious legal advice that effectively putting these things forward as a cheap alternative . You know it's no more a cheap alternative than just going and asking someone in the street what they think you should say about your legal position .

Speaker 1 6:37

All right .

AI Impact on Artist and Human Rights

Speaker 1 6:38

Now Ghislaine , of course , is also here , and , ghislaine , I know you're very keen to move this conversation on to the human rights aspects , aren't you ?

Speaker 3 6:46

Yes , definitely . I really agree with you . Susie around this legal chat box stuff and , as I understand , the same is happening in the therapy sector too . It's a kind of harvesting of a load of stuff everywhere and I think for the therapy sector as well , they're finding it quite scary what's been offered to people in therapy , and I think you write about that too in the book , about some cases where it's gone wrong , the mental health stuff , et cetera .

Speaker 3 7:13

But I wanted to put forward to you the whole thing about copyright and creatives . Yeah , and this area of you know how generative AI is now available to many yeah , is setting off this whole thing , this problem about what is unethical , what is breaking the copyright laws . Coming from an arts background , sampling , of course , has always been part of the way the arts have worked . You know it's been several different processes throughout history , have always used sampling . There's always been this kind of feeling that actually there's a flow through , of inspiring perception , changing stuff that actually is recognized by artists . And yet , of course , in recent years we've had much more hold back on that and I was wondering what you were feeling about where that's going now , the copyright side for artists in general .

Speaker 5 7:59

I mean , I think , from a from a legal perspective , with a very loyally answer . It depends . I think we're waiting to see the results of several lawsuits , particularly in the United States , coming from a lot of different angles about copyright and effectively theft , as it's being described , of creative material , also journalistic material , as well as sort of image theft and writing theft .

Speaker 1 8:27

How those cases pan out remains to be seen yeah , I'm sorry , susie , I know you're going to make a really important point here . I don't mean to cut across you , but it's just to clarify for the listeners and for myself . Actually , when you talk about all this copyright material , do you mean stuff that journalists and others will have written and put online and that's been slurped up by the large language models as their training data ? Is that part of the issue here ?

Speaker 5 8:51

yes , absolutely so .

Speaker 5 8:52

The way these large language models operate is by being trained on reams and reams and reams of human created writing art content , if you like so that they learn what good potentially looks like and are then able to drive these sort of probability generators .

Speaker 5 9:11

So the big questions are whether or not this use of copyright material is in fact a breach of copyright , because it's not quite the same as just picking it up and printing it out again and publishing it and passing it off as your own , although in some cases and I think it's the New York Times case they are showing some examples of where New York Times content is effectively being almost exactly reproduced by these models and their sort of probability generation . But what I think is going to be really interesting is that there will be different approaches and there are different laws around copyright in different jurisdictions , and so you can see France , for example , has been moving very much in a sort of protecting creatives and looking at ways that , where generative AI is used , that creatives can be compensated , and ways of protecting and opting out their work from training models , and I think we're going to see pockets of , if you like , sort of culture and protection of creatives around the world , which might well give very different landscapes for creative professionals in the future in different countries .

Speaker 3 10:28

You are right you mentioned there's some big cases coming up , some big people like Taylor Swift is in the middle of stuff . I believe Stephen Fry has gone through stuff , Scarlett Johansson has been in the news recently . So what you're suggesting is that these bigger cases by celebrity kind of celebrity hit back situations , these bigger cases by celebrity kind of celebrity hit back situations , would be potentially setting the benchmark , I guess , but in a different national scenarios . Yeah , and we've got to wait and find out how this works for different scenarios .

Speaker 5 10:56

They could be , and I think most of the cases that we're seeing at the moment are coming in the US , which is obviously where these companies are based . But you know , the wheels of justice turn fairly slowly and we may well see very different results in different jurisdictions as cases filter through and pop up in different areas .

Speaker 1 11:15

Well , of course , it just so happens , we have an artist and musician on this very show at the moment BT Wolf . I'm going to introduce you properly when we get to your item , BT , but I can't have you sitting there and not comment on what we've just been talking about around artist rights , copyright and so on . So where do you come at this as a musician , given the huge potential of AI in your creative process ? But , as we've been hearing , there are all kinds of risks and challenges , especially to artists and musicians like you .

Speaker 4 11:46

Well , I think I might be one of the only musicians who hasn't actually employed , you know , consciously , because obviously AI can be factored into some of the plugins we're using and things like that . But for me , ai is interesting when it helps human beings do things that human beings aren't very good at doing and it helps sort of iron out certain processes and maybe make those more , you know , watertight With art . Human beings are really good at making art , so I don't see the application of it from my side and , you know , creatively in any way . That's interesting . And I think you know , if you've got a model that's very good at imitation but isn't very good at creation , I mean , is really can't essentially create without , you know , rehashing existing works , I think we need to be , you know , creating new , imagined works , particularly at this time when you look at all of the different emergencies we face as human beings on the planet . You know we really need to be plundering the depths of human imagination and using art as a force for good . And , you know , social activation and awareness .

Speaker 1 12:59

and , yeah , I guess I just haven't jumped on the AI art train all right , not not jumping on that train sounds like a good subject for a song , actually , or an album title , but , um , also , I do want to suzy , bring this to human rights . Um , you know . So we've ended up talking about , um , artist rights , which , of course , I suppose you'll tell me if that is a subset of human rights . But you also write , oh , thank goodness for that . So we were on topic , everything's good , happy days . Um , in another aspect of human rights , then I know that one thing that keeps you up at night because you've written about this concern in your book is , of course , when we think about all the devices that these AI models that they operate on , whether it's our smartphones or great big cloud-based servers and what have you . This is hardware at the end of the day , and you have some grave and deep concerns about where this hardware comes from . It's often not from particularly nice places that treat people particularly well .

Speaker 5 13:58

Yes , I think it's one of the things we don't think about when we're going out to buy the next new shiny gadget is where all the minerals , all the materials that made it came from , all the people who built it , that made it came from , or the people who built it . You know , we occasionally see stories about poor working conditions in factories building iPhones or that sort of thing , but we don't really engage with it . And one of the things that I found really quite shocking when I started researching the book was the scale of the problem of where the minerals that are the backbone of our tech lives come from , and they often come from conflict regions , for example , in the Democratic Republic of Congo , where they are being mined , often illegally , often using indentured labor or child labor . And this , you know , this is what is driving all of our tech habits , and it's a really , really big issue . The more tech we use , the bigger this issue becomes .

Speaker 1 15:01

And , glenn , I know you're very worried , for instance , about biometric technologies and face recognition , fingerprint recognition , those , those kinds of things which are going to hold related related to the whole ai argument as well . Can you just outline your concerns and , I suppose , anything you wanted to run by suzy on this ?

Speaker 3 15:22

yes , I think , in human rights terms , the um , the whole area of harvesting our biometrics , and it would be good to know your thoughts on this suzy um face recognition , of course , and iris , iris recognition at airports , but actually even more so now in what we call XR , which includes VR , ar , all these immersion experiences where all of our biometrics are being collected and we can be identified very quickly . So here I'm talking about identity , yeah , and then , in the widest sense , not just your voice , which obviously is a big issue and that's coming up in these celebrity cases yeah , but actually more than that , the whole of our body identity . Do you see that in this human rights area too ?

Speaker 5 16:05

Absolutely . I think that the increased collection of biometrics and particularly emotion recognition technology so trying to read what we are thinking , what we are feeling , from aspects of our biometrics not just from our facial expressions but , as you say , sort of eye tracking devices or body function tracking to try and assess how we feel about different things I think is a real concern , particularly for our right to freedom of thought and our right to freedom in our inner lives . And essentially that kind of tracking , that kind of surveillance , is also being used in a way to then be turned around to manipulate us , to try to sell us stuff that we may or may not need , based on assessments of what we're feeling .

Speaker 3 16:56

Absolutely , and we know that it's happening massively everywhere . So have you got any ideas of cases that are approaching this kind of biometric misuse ?

Speaker 5 17:06

Well , I think it's going to be very interesting to see . You know , we have the EUAI Act that was passed this year and that will be coming into force over the summer , and the EUAI Act has sort of introduced a risk register of things where there are prohibited risks or unacceptable risks , high risk , limited risk and minimal risk , and so some of the prohibited risks include , for example , in Europe , biometric monitoring in public places and also emotion recognition in education and in employment situations . So we're seeing the EU really start to put its money where its mouth is in terms of protecting fundamental rights through law around AI , and I think it's going to be very interesting to see the implementation of that and when that eventually starts to come into force .

Artistic Visualization of Climate Change

Speaker 1 18:06

All right . Well , we'll leave it there for now , susie Allegra . Thank you so much . For now , susie Allegra , thank you so much . Your book Human Rights and Robot Wrongs and it's I guess this , this podcast is going out kind of July-ish . Will the book be available around then ?

Speaker 5 18:20

Absolutely . The book is already available in most of the world and it'll be out in North America in September .

Speaker 1 18:28

Marvellous . Thank you very much , susie . All right then . Well , let's meet the person we've already met and I'm going to introduce her properly here as well . I've written a really elaborate introduction , so here goes . It's not from an LLM in any way , because congratulations are actually in order for artist and composer Beattie Wolfe . Before I say what the congratulations are in order for , I'd better just quickly tell you a bit about Beattie , just in case you didn't know already .

Speaker 1 18:51

Beatty is a very interesting person . She wrote her university dissertation thesis on Leonard Cohen and then went on to work at the interface between art , music and technology . Beatty has beamed her music into space via a famous gigantic horn antenna in New Jersey . She's woven her second album into an NFC-enabled jacket , so I guess you could say she's truly reimagining what we mean by record jacket . And most recently , bt co-created a massive rooftop solar display of shadow poetry . She's also just visualized six decades worth of climate data in a major work called Smoke and Mirrors that premiered at the South by Southwest Festival earlier this year . And that is where the congratulations come in . Yes , smoke and Mirrors has just won the pre-Arselectronica Golden Knicker Award . Congratulations and welcome again , bt .

Speaker 4 19:45

Thank you so much , Gareth .

Speaker 1 19:46

First your response to this award .

Speaker 4 19:49

Well , it was a wonderful surprise because the project came out only a couple of months ago , as you mentioned , at South by Southwest in Austin , and about a week later my , my father , died very , very suddenly , very dramatically , and it really turned my world upside down . Every project kind of fell through the cracks of the grief , including this one , and so a lot that had been planned for it I just wasn't able to follow through with . So then , you know , a few weeks ago I heard that it had won the Golden Ica , which , yeah , apparently , is kind of a big deal had . I hadn't realized , but a few friends informed me when , when they heard , and , yeah , it felt really like a way of in in some ways sort of relaunching the project . My father was actually the person who gave me the last note on it with his eagle eye critique , so in some ways , yeah , it also feels like an award for both of us .

Speaker 1 20:55

Okay , oh , that's . That's so lovely and moving that you effectively dedicate this award to your father and I'm sorry for your loss , by the way , bt , that's , that's very sad . So I guess this work has its genesis in so many areas of your work and your interests . But I'm thinking of a big project of yours called From Green to Red , and back in the old Digital Planet days that preceded this podcast , I remember we came to talk to you about it . This was in 2019 . And From Green to Red ? It was projected onto one of the famous buildings in Glasgow during COP26 , when that conference was on . This was the Armadillo building , and what Green to Red did is it visualized a whole load of CO2 data , didn't it ? So now we've moved on to methane data , so perhaps you can just briefly touch on Green to Red and perhaps link that forward to smoke and mirrors and where we are today .

Speaker 4 21:47

So smoke and mirrors , yeah , very much is a continuation , or let's say like a parallel project to From Green to Red , which was a visualization of 800,000 years of rising CO2 levels , which was set to a track . I wrote after seeing an inconvenient truth JPL and one of the chief engineers had shown me these graphs and just realizing , you know well , firstly , oh my God , you know how are we in this position we're currently in and looking not just since the industrial revolution , but even in the last 50 years , and realizing that data is so intangible and so unrelatable for so many people . From green to red became this sort of first translation of data into this kind of visual form that people could really absorb , you know , and then it had obviously the music tracking alongside it . So that was a previous project that came out a couple of years ago , but I saw that there was this kind of gap .

Speaker 4 22:49

There was something else that hadn't been accounted for , which was , you know , obviously , methane is also incredibly damaging . It actually traps , I think you know , a smoke and mirrors as I call it campaign of disinformation and misinformation around climate data and , you know , environmental awareness . So with smoke and mirrors , I wanted to visualize the last , not 800,000 years , just 60 years of methane levels , alongside these advertising campaigns that Exxon and Mobil and , you know , chevron , bp , all of the usual players have been running during that , during that critical time of human history . In really saying this is why we are also in the position where we're currently in , it's a lot of stuff that people aren't even fully aware of and I wanted to really bring that into view and you really do , and like so much brilliant art it's .

Speaker 1 24:00

It can be tricky to describe in a sonic medium like a podcast , but I'll do my best . You know , we see the earth initially zoomed in on a few industrialized countries , and then the whole scene kind of zooms out . So we go from the country to the continents , to the planetary level and as this happens , as these 60 years elapse , these plumes appear , visualizations of the methane , and at first they're just fairly sporadic little plumes of smoke and you're almost well , I was watching it kind of in my typical optimistic , cup-half-full way , thinking , oh , it's not that bad . But then of course you get to 2023 , and the whole planet is more or less shrouded in this methane cloud and it's really disturbing because what it did for me and I'd love to hear your response , bt was I almost thought wow . So I kind of extrapolated from 2023 , you know , of course your work stops in the present day and in my head I carried on animating this and it wasn't very pretty .

Speaker 4 25:03

No , no , I mean , in the last 50 years , that concentration level has effectively doubled . So that's what you're seeing , because that's , you know , the period of time that we're looking at , and then , as you beautifully described , perfectly described the methane aspect of it engulfing this image of the earth that's based on the iconic nasa blue marble shot . You know , that's deeply embedded in our in our consciousness , and and the way that we got to see our planet properly for the first time . But you have , you know , this suffocating earth , um , but then you also have these slogans you know , oil pumps life and your carbon footprint and we're out to clean the air , and all of these verbatim things that these , you know , the oil industry were , were saying and were advertising , um , and I think it really pulls together those two narratives you know , very , um , coherently and , and , of course , with your , your lyrics and your music .

Speaker 1 26:05

Now , um , glenn boddington , what do you make of this as a visualization ? Um , because you're so interested in that whole area . Isn't it the role of art in visualising , making the invisible visible ?

Speaker 3 26:17

No , absolutely , and I really with you , bt , as you know , on this way that we can make awareness of important global issues , like your work with climate change , but through visualisations , because of actually helping educate many people who just don't get this info from written media or stats or the news , etc . It doesn't reach them , it doesn't hit them . So I was wondering whether , whether you'd been working with this in terms of who you , who you're looking at actually , who do you want to most reach with this work , this amazing visualization ? What's your aim in terms of who's out there that you know this is got to reach ?

Speaker 4 26:55

well , that's an interesting question because I feel with every project actually I I never really have a particular audience , you know I I just have human beings really in in mind and in a way , I feel also with every project that I want them all to be as inclusive and accessible as possible . I want a five-year-old through to a 90-year-old to be able to come through and get something from it , and something I definitely saw when it was exhibited at South by Southwest beta version of it . But I was amazed to see how many people were able to come through . But even in just a short amount of time they got a sense of what they were viewing , without necessarily fully understanding all of the layers .

Speaker 4 27:41

Because I think to be able to make the complex simple and to be able to make data feelable not just something that you know or you can think about , but something you can actually feel , and to be able to translate a timeline again into something that you know , even if it's 800 000 years , you can get a sense of it in in four minutes . It's that's the goal for me and I want you know it's really for anyone and everyone , and I think the thing that's also been quite rewarding is . You know I've had a number of conversations with data visualization . You know visualizers and climate scientists who do this kind of work more on a say , less artistic , but are finding those ways of visualizing the data and you know also when it's really affecting them . That's a that's a wonderful thing yeah , that's great .

Speaker 3 28:33

And just to say , I think that you know , alongside this we're hearing a really wonderful song . Your fantastic voice and the lyrics are really important too , so you're layering in another edge which people can link to immediately and fast . Yeah .

Speaker 1 28:48

Well , and with that , let's just hear some of those lyrics .

Speaker 2 29:09

Here is an excerpt from oh my Heart by BT Wolfe . There is something in this world we must be learning . It's almost killing me . Hold your heart , my darling . Hold your heart , my darling .

Speaker 4 29:34

That song was released as the world's first bioplastic record with Michael Stipe and Brian Eno's Earth Percent , and so it's a song I wrote close to ten years ago , just around the time of the Brexit vote , and I felt like you know , oh my God , are we sleepwalking off the side of a precipice as a greater human being , species in me , so hold ?

Speaker 2 30:00

your heart , my darling . Hold your heart , my darling .

Speaker 4 30:26

Hold your heart , my darling , now so in a way it wasn't as specific as From Green to Red , which was about an inconvenient truth , but it had this sort of sense of doom . So after it was released as the first non-PVC petroleum-based record , it then felt like the perfect track for this visualisation .

Speaker 1 30:58

And I know , Glenn , you're very interested in the circular economy aspects that comes about from this work . There's a bit he touched on there .

Speaker 3 31:06

You know , absolutely . I think it's really great you've explained the bioplastic record . It was something that I'd been reading about replacing this harmful production of vinyl , which we all love , and actually trying to minimize waste , um in the music industry , and I think that that's very important . In terms of actually the use of big data , too , which you are using here , of course , you know 60 years of data how we're seeing the issues of how much , how many problems to climate change data is adding to , yeah , into this world , not just physical things , but data itself , whether it's heat , etc . And how we're starting to see circular economy solutions to actually pushing that heat , for example , from big data farms round into use for housing , for growing under polytunnels , etc . Etc . We need more of these solutions , I agree .

Speaker 1 32:00

All right , beatty . So finally , then , where can people find this track and indeed the album from which it comes , and have an opportunity to buy the bioplastic ? How's that coming about ?

Speaker 4 32:12

Well , that's really funny . I thought you were going to say you know where can they see the methane data and the oil ads ? Oh yes , that too , that's really funny .

Speaker 4 32:18

I thought you were going to say you know where can they see the methane data and the oil ads and you know well . So yeah , it's all of the information about this project is smoke dot dash dot mirrors dot org . And then the track , the bioplastic record , actually sold out as soon as it kind of went up for sale . I think there's maybe a few copies on on ebay or something , but that's out um , and the track doesn't currently exist anywhere else because you know not to get into a whole other conversation , but um , you know music , the streaming of music has has commodified it to whole new levels of you know jingles .

Speaker 1 32:57

So it's currently um only as the visualization and as this bioplastic record right , okay , well clarified , and , um , and on a very serious note , then just um , if people want to see the animation , that's that's where we get . As you said , you gave that address for smoke and mirrors and that's where people can actually see what we've been talking about , isn't it ?

Speaker 4 33:17

smoke and mirrors by bt wolf yep , got it all right .

Speaker 1 33:20

There we are . Thank you very much , bt wolf . Lovely to speak to you again . So that'll do for this edition of somewhere on earth . Of course you can get in touch with us folks , do you know ? People do seem to still like email these days . You'd almost think that they're a little bit off social media in some cases not all cases . So the address is hello at somewhere on earthco . We were going to make it info at somewhere on earth , but we thought that sounded a little bit kind of formal . So it's hello at somewhere on earthco . And of course we are on all the socials . Well , they're the important ones anyway . So contact us that way . Uh , but uh for now , for me , gareth Mitchell and Ghislaine Boddington and , of course , producer Anja Nisarovic . Thanks for being there . See you next time , bye , bye .