Block & Order

Why Stablecoins Win with Carlo D’Angelo

• Falcon Rappaport & Berkman LLP • Season 1 • Episode 47

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 58:38

In this episode, Kyle and Moish sit down with Carlo D'Angelo, defense attorney turned stablecoin consultant, to explore stablecoins and how the GENIUS Act is reshaping payments, banking, and U.S. financial leadership. Carlo explains why stablecoins may succeed where crypto previously stalled, how treasury-backed digital dollars could strengthen the dollar globally, and why banks must adapt—or risk irrelevance. Tune in for sharp insights on compliance, innovation, and the next chapter for digital assets.

Follow us on all of our socials!


Please note that this show is meant for informational and entertainment purposes only. This is not legal advice. Please hire your own attorney. The hosts or guests appearing on Block and Order may hold cryptocurrency, NFTs, or other digital assets from companies mentioned during our programming. This possession of digital assets does not constitute a professional endorsement, legal advice, or financial advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with their own legal and financial advisors for personalized guidance in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Block and Order, your one stop legal shop for all things digital assets. I'm your host, Kyle Lawrence, and with me as always, sadly, he's the second most handsome man in crypto. Mr. Moish Peltz.

Moish Peltz [00:00:22]:
That's right. Does that make you the third or the first?

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:26]:
Well, Carlo is technically the first. I could be.

Moish Peltz [00:00:28]:
That's not just making sure, man. Just something you're saying. All right.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:31]:
I live in the trenches, man. Listen, I know my place. It's all good trencher.

Moish Peltz [00:00:34]:
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:35]:
Well, how you doing, Moish? What's going on in crypto world for you?

Moish Peltz [00:00:39]:
Crypto world's been great, man. Everything's good. We're keep, you know, just keep stacking. I don't know what's going on with crypto world for you?

Kyle Lawrence [00:00:48]:
Everything's going swimmingly, man. I got my NFTs behind me that they're. They're doing great, I guess. I don't know, you know, I haven't checked my portfolio on anything in a while, which is why I think everything is, you know, at its peak right now. And I'm not going to look and learn otherwise. And that's good for me heading into the weekend.

Moish Peltz [00:01:05]:
I think this has actually been historically the worst stretch for NFTs since there were NFTs.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:14]:
Been the worst stretch for a couple things for quite some time, but if you don't look, then it's not a problem.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:20]:
But bitcoin's fine and stable coins, as we're going to talk about in this episode, are doing grand, so.

Kyle Lawrence [00:01:27]:
Yeah, that's true. Well, Moish, we had what was probably one of the better guests, with all due respect to our prior guests, we had somebody who really is, you know, fluent in presenting in the space and somebody who presents a really complicated and nuanced topic. Carlo d'. Angelo. He's become, he's reinvented himself. A former law professor who's reinvented himself as a stablecoin expert. And to be an expert in the space that is rapidly evolving with legislation both having been passed and new regulations on the way to thread the needle of being the expert in something that is so fluid to me is wildly impressive.

Moish Peltz [00:02:06]:
Yeah, I was really impressed with his ability to, one, deliver a really easy to understand, exciting message, but that conveys really deep policy questions, legal questions, financial market questions, business issues, because that's what stablecoins are doing, right? They're challenging the status quo of banks being the really only institution which normal folks keep their money in. And that's all in question now, right? With the. With the emergence of stable coins and the adoption of the Genius act and all the implications down the road from here, because the act just passed. I mean, we kind of think in crypto speed, but in the speed of, like, legislation and the way that, like, financial markets work, it just passed like, a day ago. Right. So we haven't really seen the downstream implications. And that's some of the stuff that Carlo speaks about this episode, I think, really eloquently and really makes you think.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:06]:
One of the things that I really appreciated him talking about was how banks are going to either respond to or be integrated with this new technology in this new form of payment system. Because we're lawyers, and I still encounter this all the time when I'm speaking to an older lawyer and I say, we should do it this way, and they say, no, we've always done it this way, and that's how we're going to do it. And to me, a lot of people, they're hesitant to use crypto. They're afraid of it. They don't understand it, you know, and all that. But it's, well, don't put your money in the bank. Do it here. We still encounter a lot of, well, I've always done it this way, and that's what I understand, and that's what I'm going to do.

Kyle Lawrence [00:03:42]:
And I think Carlo had some really salient points about how we, as participants in the space and in a way, de facto educators, are going to have to punch through that. And you're right. The way he explained it very succinctly, very concisely, you know, it's something I tell the junior associates. I say, all right, here's a complicated issue. Explain it to me in two sentences. If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it. And I think he was amazing at that. And a thing that I don't think I could explain as succinctly.

Moish Peltz [00:04:10]:
Yeah, you can tell he understands it. So, look, it's. We've known Carlo for a long time. It's great to see him again. It's great to have the episode. He'll definitely be back. If you see Carlo out in the world, say hi to him. He's a great person to say hello, catch up, and hear what's on his mind.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:24]:
And we're pleased to share that with our audience.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:28]:
Without further ado, let's kick it over to our conversation with Carlo d'. Angelo. So what's interesting about having you on the show is That I always like to say friend of the pod. But you're our actual friend, not just friend of the pod. So this is kind of rarefied air for us.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:04:46]:
Yeah, we have roots together, don't we, guys? We do, yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:04:50]:
What, five years now?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:04:51]:
Yeah. Yep. I mean, Moish, I go back to that first NFT NYC conference that we went to together and we, we created pretty interesting thing there. I mean, we have a whole network of lawyers all on back in the day, Twitter, all in the DMs, trading ideas and trying to figure out our way through this madness we call crypto law.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:16]:
Writing the whole industry on the fly. My man. I love it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:18]:
Yeah, we're still, we're still going. We're still trying to figure it out.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:05:21]:
And we're still here.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:22]:
And we're still here. Well, without further ado, a very special block and order. Welcome to Friend of the Pod and friend of ours, Carlo d', Angelo, defense attorney extraordinaire, and dare I say it, the most handsome man in the business.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:05:38]:
Carlos checks in the mail, guys. Perfect.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:42]:
All right, that's that, that's our show for today, guys.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:44]:
All right, we're good.

Kyle Lawrence [00:05:46]:
Where are you calling in today from, man? Are you in Texas?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:05:49]:
I am in east Texas in the piney woods. And I'm in my secret lair, undisclosed location, which is my home studio upstairs in a little nook I've carved out for myself. Kind of my self imposed dungeon in the house where I do all my content creation.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:07]:
Your own, your own private crypto man cave. I love it.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:06:09]:
Exactly. I come here and cry my sorrows about the alt season.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:17]:
Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's, it's. We're full of holiday cheer. We don't have to look at our portfolio balances at all because there's other cool things going on.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:06:23]:
Yes, there are.

Kyle Lawrence [00:06:26]:
Well, why don't you start by just telling the people by what you have going on, you know, tell us a bit about yourself, what you do, and then we'll kind of of go from there.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:06:35]:
Yeah. Thank you first of all for having me on. It's, it's great to be a part of this show. You guys are doing amazing things. So I'm Carlo DeAngelo and I've been a lawyer for nearly 30 years. Spent most of my career in criminal defense. I was for a short time a professor down at a school in Miami where I taught legal writing and advanced legal research and writing, which if you're a lawyer, is everyone's favorite course. And ultimately I moved out To Texas from Florida, started a criminal defense practice, and then discovered NFTs and crypto and went down that rabbit hole.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:07:09]:
I started to see that there was a lot of debauchery going on in this sector. So I thought, well, maybe in addition to the degen trading that I do, maybe I can add some value to the space. So I started advising clients in the space, criminal cases, some startup work. My most interesting thing that I'm working on right now is stablecoin Solutions. I'm pivoting from the practice of law to advising and consulting on launching fully regulated stablecoins under the Genius Act. So stablecoin solutions is my latest pet project that I'm most excited about because I think that is where the puck is going when it comes to digital asset space. That's what's got me excited right now.

Kyle Lawrence [00:07:51]:
Well, you must.

Moish Peltz [00:07:52]:
I assumed it was because now is crime. Crime is legal. We don't need criminal defense.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:07:57]:
Yeah, I mean, look, I'm like the Maytag man waiting for the phone to ring, because apparently, unless you do Kwan, it doesn't seem like anyone's going to prison anymore.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:07]:
Yeah, and. And Sam, and that's about.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:08:10]:
And Samurai Wallet and Tornado Cash. I mean, yeah, we could get into a whole story about. But let's. Let's keep this cheerful for the Christmas season, shall we?

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:22]:
Well, how have you. How have you been advising people, obviously, without giving away the secret sauce, as we're still waiting on, you know, Rags, you know, we were promised regs this month. We're approaching the holiday season. Today's December 12th. Yes. I had to look and see what date it was because fourth quarter. I don't know what day it is. But how do you.

Kyle Lawrence [00:08:41]:
How do you begin that conversation without the real framework around it?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:08:46]:
Easy, because it is, without question, top of mind for everybody in the crypto space right now. You know, Moish and I, we visited in Vegas at the Bitcoin 2025 conference. And I sort of told you this is where I was going and, you know, applying a lot of my attention because I firmly believe that these fully regulated stablecoins will be the Trojan horse that onboards the masses. You know, we've been talking for years about when are the normies coming? And it's been hard to adopt the normies because people don't have patience with the stuff that we put up with seed phrases, wallets, all these different protocols, all these different exchanges. But with stablecoins, when I saw the genius act and what it could do, a light bulb went off. For me. And I was like, yeah, this is where we need to be putting our efforts because once we get people to understand that they can move money on blockchains via fully regulated digital dollars, that's going to open up the door to alts and bitcoin and all the fun stuff that we enjoy doing. But it all starts with teaching people how to move simple dollars without the need for banks.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:09:55]:
I think that banks are a real juggernaut when it comes to moving money. So my sales pitch is pretty simple. If you're a business and you're tired of paying wire fees, you're tired of seeing credit card fees drained from all your hard earned money, well, why not accept stablecoins pennies on the $24 7? But yeah, we're not there yet because they still have to lay down the regulatory framework for this. But that is by no means stopping from people from building in this sector. I mean, it's crazy how fast this is going.

Kyle Lawrence [00:10:26]:
Yeah, it's almost like you've been listening to our show because just the idea of 247 capital and no wire fees and all those things, I mean, you're singing my song. I'm going to, I'm going to dream about this. This is amazing.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:10:38]:
I'm glad I'm in your head, Kyle.

Kyle Lawrence [00:10:40]:
Thank you. Glad somebody understands what I'm saying. You and Moish are the only ones who are my true friends. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, how do you. So when you talk about, you know, banks being the juggernaut in the space, how do you react to the news that came out today, which is Circle Ripple, Bitgo, Fidelity Digital and Paxos were all had their conditional approvals, went through for to become charters.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:11:02]:
Amazing. Yeah, it is. It is definitely what needs to happen for this sector. You know, stablecoins present an interesting thing for Treasury. I firmly believe that Scott Besant, who is brilliant, who understands exactly where things are going with respect to dollar debasement, with respect to the lack of demand for treasuries, We've got China accumulating gold like crazy trying to get away from the dollar. He knows that for the dollar to maintain dominance around the world, there has to be a buyer for treasuries. The Genius act, which is, I mean, let's be real, the only meaningful piece of crypto legislation that's ever passed both houses of Congress and actually been signed into law, affords the United States to create a global demand for treasuries. And it affords the world to have access to dollars, digital dollars 24 7.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:12:01]:
This is a total game changer and I'm not surprised to see that all these companies are getting their bank charters approved because they need to have access to the Fed and to the liquidity engine that moves money around. And although they're not fully regulated banks, I think that Fed Wire and FedNow as has been talked about, is going to loosen its restrictions and it's going to let fintech banks play in that space. And that's why Circle is doing what they're doing and that's why Paxos is doing what they're doing and because they all need to be fintech banks in order to get this done right under the Genius Act.

Kyle Lawrence [00:12:39]:
Amazing. So there's, there's all these private sector stablecoin launches and now there's also. I was reading this past week, well, I've met some of the Wyoming stablecoin folks. There's also state chartered stablecoin developments and I was also reading a bit about the concept that the, the Genius act really app applies to persons and a state is not a person. And so the, the, the state might be able to do certain things like offer yield that perhaps a person like Paxos or Bitgo cannot. So I'm curious how, how you think about the, the different kinds of participants in this market though, those all being primarily United States based entities that are going to be subject to, to the, to the Stable coin Genius act versus now. Okay, well these things are frictionless and you can trade stable coins anywhere. So for example, Tether is, is formed offshore, not in the United States, but people in the United States could still obviously trade it even if it's not supported by their friendly local banker.

Kyle Lawrence [00:13:47]:
So talk to me more about the ecosystem here and where you're able to, you know, get your hands dirty and advise people different options and what they should and shouldn't be doing.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:13:59]:
For sure. You know, the states present an interesting thing because states processing payments via their own state launched stablecoins for purposes of refunding money for purposes of processing state payments. That's an interesting thing. And there is a threshold under the Genius act where if they stay below, I believe it's $10 billion. They don't have to necessarily come into full compliance with the Genius act, but if they choose to be in full compliance with the Genius act, well then that opens up an entirely different suite of things that they can do. Now with respect to private sector, I fully anticipate that we're going to see just like we saw in the ICO CRAZE and in the NFT craze and in the meme coin craze, everybody's going to launch a stablecoin. The private sector is looking at this as something interesting for rewards programs, for loyalty programs, for in ecosystem payments. And I think all of those are interesting, but many probably will not catch traction.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:14:58]:
Then you have the interesting player in this, which is Paolo and tether. You know, he's a brilliant guy. He built a company based on a very small operating network, very small operating costs, very small staffing, and it's the most profitable entity of all time. When he saw the genius act, he did something very brilliant. He brought Bo Hines in as an advisor and he's jumping into the fully regulated stablecoin game under the genius act while he's going to have tether internationally and there's no competing with tether when it comes to their network effect. Because if you go to any foreign country, especially South America, where their currency is volatile and is subject to serious fluctuations and debasing those tether, stablecoins are the lifeline for people in those countries and, and then those economies. So tether is always going to be a meaningful player globally. But they know that the big money in is is in US regulated stablecoins because the world still wants dollars.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:15:59]:
That is still the engine and that is still the preferred currency. And as long as that's the case, I think the possibilities are limitless for fully regulated stablecoins because they solve for kyc, they solve for AML and they have the stamp of the treasury. That means they don't depeg the tether thing that we all know about. We've seen the depeg events. This is mitigated with genius act stablecoins because they're mandated to be pegged one to one to dollar equivalent assets, which makes them less risky.

Kyle Lawrence [00:16:30]:
You know, it's funny, you talk about normies, which I'll just keep using for the duration of this recording. How do we get normies involved? How do we get people involved? And then you talk about the tether and the deep, which is, you know, obviously a significant occurrence that happened in the industry. The other night I was at a holiday dinner and the concept of bitcoin came up. Just bitcoin came up. And you know, I'm talking about what bitcoin is, what is blockchain, Real basic stuff. And the common opinion around the table was I don't understand this. All I know is the scandals. All I know is the de pegging, like that's all they Hear about.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:03]:
All they hear is the negative. They're just peppered with it. And we're talking about bank charters being issued today. It's the kind of thing that we know about, but it's not the kind of thing that the everyday person knows about. How do we as educators and participants in the space break through that wall, which to me still seems like a significant barrier. All people see are bitcoin crashes. That's the headline. We don't see about bank charters.

Kyle Lawrence [00:17:27]:
We don't know about all the great things you're talking about, the things that stablecoins can do, the things that it's going to do for just the US economy, the strength of the US dollar. How do we impart that understanding onto people?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:17:38]:
It's a challenge, especially for me, starting a new venture where I'm trying to advise businesses, family offices and fintechs on how to adopt this technology. We've, we're no strangers to having to educate our customer. We've gone through that with crypto. But frankly, it's a much easier pitch when it comes to this stuff. Because when you explain to people in the simplest terms that this is basically digital dollars that move at the speed of the Internet as opposed to at the speed of banks that eliminate the bank fees that come with moving money traditionally. And it empowers consumers to move money on their terms 24, 7 without the need for the delay of wire transfers, checks processing, credit cards processing. It's an easy thing to pitch to people because it's different than the crypto that they're accustomed to seeing all the negative stories about in the news. Because the icing on the cake for all this is they're backed by Treasury.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:18:42]:
There isn't a cryptocurrency that has that blessing. So it's easy to differentiate. But I do acknowledge, Kyle, that there's still a learning curve because the consumer still equates crypto with scams with fraud. So it's going to take some time. But when you see announcements today, like PayPal is now integrated into YouTube for rewards payments for US based creators, it's not going to take long before people see that little icon pop up and start to wonder, how do I get access to this stuff? And once that network effect kicks in, I think it's limitless. What's going to happen with respect to this? Because it's the future of money.

Kyle Lawrence [00:19:25]:
Yeah, it's a great point and great stuff all around. When people ask me the same question I ask you, I always give them the example of, hey, have you ever applied for a bank loan or an SBA loan? Heaven forbid. It's like a nine month rectal exam that just doesn't stop. And no matter what you tell them, they're so myopic and they're thinking it's hard to just get the funds extricated from the bank. I do hope that some of the banking regulations on that front are not as stringent as they are. Like, if you want to get a loan in stablecoins as opposed to USD, I hope you don't have to go through the same just rigorous process. I'm sure you will to an extent, but I do hope that a lot of that just becomes more streamlined and efficient. People shouldn't have to wait months to get a loan.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:06]:
Stuff needs to happen quick, you know.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:20:08]:
Well, here's the threat, Kyle. Can I curse on this podcast?

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:12]:
I hope you do.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:20:14]:
I have been very vocal in saying that banks are fucked when it comes to stablecoins.

Kyle Lawrence [00:20:18]:
Love it.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:20:19]:
And you know, it's a controversial take, but the reality is banks are incredibly threatened by stablecoins because they know that it's going to be a flight of depositor money out of of banks and into other opportunities. You know, you talk about loans, we have this thing called Defi, which is amazing. If the stablecoins are KYC'd and AML'd by the issuer, well, you eliminate that risk factor and now you get to present to the consumer an opportunity to earn yield on their own. We're not talking about the yield. That's prohibited under the Genius act, which is another conversation. But under defi, you can, you can loan money, you can send money to other people seamlessly, effortlessly. So I talk to a lot of people in banks, I try to onboard bankers and I have to tell you my initial experience with it, as far as the bankers on the ground, they're largely still clueless as to what's happening. I spoke at a bank conference not too long ago and I talked about the fact that this is an opportunity, especially for smaller regional banks to be really competitive.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:21:29]:
Because if you sat down with your business customers and you said, hey, yes, I can put you in a wire transfer for $30 by the way, coming and going. I don't know about your business, but when I receive wires now, I get charged a fee just to receive a wire. Oh, you know, we can do that. Or maybe I can show you this other thing where you can send money 24, 7 for pennies. If you're sending money overseas, you don't have to worry about currency conversion. You don't have to worry about volatility and delays in that money moving. If you're trying to get into a deal as a family office on a Friday afternoon in Dubai, you don't have to worry about catching the bank before it closes. You don't have to worry about the currency conversion, the impact it's going to have on the currency you're sending and the currency that's going to be received.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:22:16]:
You can push a button in your wallet and send that stablecoin and fund the deal immediately. This is groundbreaking. But if banks don't adapt to this, well, then they're fucked because they're going to lose customers.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:30]:
You really have, you mentioned, I mean.

Kyle Lawrence [00:22:31]:
The users, right, in the United States, like, well, we have dollars and we have banks and they're expensive and slow, but they work. And your money's almost always there. And you think about, you mentioned in South America, well, this is taking off tether's like what I think just over 10 years old and it's already this, this amazing thing that so many people around the world are. And then you mentioned also this example of, well, you're a family office in Dubai and the banks are closed and you want to fund the transaction like, well, of course you can just send a USDC or some, some other stablecoin then. And it doesn't matter who's open or closed, doesn't matter what time zone you're in. So, I mean. But then the Genius act, right? I think there's this really interesting tension with the Genius act about, well, it's a US Legislation and companies are going to form here. I think so much of what people are thinking about is the international potential and the ability, like what you said at the beginning of the show, to export dollars everywhere as an instrument of foreign policy.

Kyle Lawrence [00:23:34]:
So how do you think the market is thinking about the Genius act and the implementation map that it's going through and, and what's happening here in the US but how that might impact beyond.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:23:47]:
It creates a tremendous opportunity because first of all, one of the best selling points we go back to, you know, how do you sell this stuff? Is it's the most American thing that you could be selling because you're telling people, hey, this is a product that is backed by the treasury, that is supported by the treasury, and that encourages the sale of U.S. treasury assets globally. This is good for the dollar. So this is like the most patriotic thing you can do from, from the stateside perspective. Now, from the overseas perspective, if you live In a country where you have concerns about what your currency is pegged at, volatility, confiscation, all the crazy stuff that happens in a lot of countries that experience currency volatility, you want to hold dollars and it's not easy to hold dollars. However, if you're talking about digital dollars that operate on a blockchain that are borderless now you have the opportunity to collect a payment for your services in a stablecoin that is fully backed under this Genius act regime and you can swap it for your native currency if you need to, or you can hold it in USDC or any other Genius act regulated stablecoin and you avoid that volatility. So for people that are doing business overseas, this is an amazing opportunity because this is going to further entrench the dollar as the global reserve currency. This is a total game changer.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:25:21]:
If Scott Bessen can thread this needle, this is going to be amazing for the US and for the US Economy.

Kyle Lawrence [00:25:29]:
You absolutely nailed it. And we've talked before on the show about exactly what you're talking about. Nigeria, El Salvador, Cuba, some of these countries that just don't have the access to secure, regulated, insurance backed banking systems. You know, you, you run a coffee shop in El Salvador and people are paying you in El Salvadorian currency, sorry, I don't know what it is, and you put it in the bank and poof, it's gone because the government takes it. It's. You hit the nail on the head. What's interesting from our perspective, and we've talked about this on prior episodes, is it's the holidays now. You know, there's not going to be any legislative progress now before the year end and next year is a midterm year and there's a lot of stuff going on with the, you know, we have Stable Genius act is signed into law.

Kyle Lawrence [00:26:13]:
Great. We're still waiting on regs if we can shift a little to market structure. How do you feel about the status of that going into 2026? And just, you know, to hearken back to what you were talking about, the banks I know yester, I believe the CEOs of Wells Fargo, Citibank and one of the other ones, probably bank of America, actually met to discuss what they want to see in the market structure. Bill, let's talk about myopic thinkers, curious to see what there's like, hey, put the kibosh on this or what do they say? I don't know if you have any insight into that, man.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:26:46]:
You look at someone like Jamie Dimon who was so critical of cryptocurrencies and bitcoin and now he's done a complete about face. He's launched a bitcoin bond, he's exploring custodying digital assets within the banking infrastructure. Look, BlackRock understands, Vanguard understands, Charles Schwab knows, Fidelity knows that eventually anything that can be traded is going to be tokenized and moving on blockchains 24 7. But before they can fully commit to this stuff, and they plan to commit to this stuff, mark my words, they plan to commit to this stuff. What they are waiting for is clarity from the markets. And the markets unfortunately are not going to full port, especially the banks, until they know that they have the full blessing of Congress.

Kyle Lawrence [00:27:47]:
To me it's maybe I'm just cynical. It's largely a function of them wanting to make sure that they can capitalize on. We talk about the banks wanting to get their slice of the pie. Jamie Dimon was against bitcoin and now he's pro. President Trump was against bitcoin in his first term and then he full 180 and that's fine. People can change their minds. People can see the writing on the wall. But to me, the cynic in me is I don't believe in this until I can make money on it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:28:11]:
Like the oil companies killing the electric cars, I won't go down that rabbit hole. But it's that kind of thing to me or from your perspective, is that part of the equation? I mean, to me it has to be.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:28:25]:
Look, man, we've been. I'm not going to say that we're total OGs because you know, we came into this, we came into this kind of around the COVID time, around the NFT craze. I wasn't, you know, running a rig and mining bitcoin. You know, I'm not that og. But we have seen some incredible things since we all got together and started talking about crypto and crypto law. I mean, if you would have told me back at NFT NYC in the middle of all that Biden administration war on Crypto choke point 2.0 War on debanking crypto sector, that we'd be here with an administration that is fully ported on digital assets, that has created a working task force, that has released a working report talking about how we are going to lead the world in cryptocurrency, innovation. I mean you could not have a better setup here. And the fact that all the institutions have access now to a White House which is interested in making this top priority for the nation and we have Senator Loomis who wants to propose a bitcoin strategic reserve for the United States.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:29:43]:
You couldn't be set up better. I mean, conditions are perfect. But that said, we're coming up on a midterm election. Trump has a real existential threat here in the sense that he does not get his agenda across the goal line if the economy continues to founder. That's why he's going to run this economy as hot as possible. That's why they are pushing to cut rates. And let's face it, he's getting his own hand picked. Fed chair in May.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:30:14]:
There's a lot of pressure on the lame duck Fed chair already to start cutting rates, despite the fact many people are critical that inflation is still running a little bit too hot. We're going to see a massive influx of liquidity from treasury. Because what we're seeing right now, and it's fascinating, is we are seeing the Fed become marginalized to an extent and the treasury, through stablecoins, taking over the running of the liquidity engine, forcing banks to buy these Treasuries and absorb all these Treasuries because of the fact that they have to, under the stablecoin issuance requirements, absorb all these Treasuries is going to run this economy super hot. And the reason they're doing that is because they need to secure a majority in Congress to continue to push this agenda. So circling back to whether we're going to see market clarity before Christmas or after Christmas, it is definitely a priority. I think we're going to get it done before the midterms. And I think for our sector, that's incredibly important. Because if we get mired in a hotly contested midterm season and the economy is not where Trump needs it to be to retain power, well, then this entire agenda could be derailed.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:31:31]:
And I don't think they're going to let that happen. Because as you said, the big institutional players, they want in. They know what this is going to do for their bottom line. They just need the law to be clear so that their lawyers, because we know lawyers, ruin everything. We kill all the fun. We're always bringing up those boring things like statutes and regulations and compliance and red flags. Yes, we serve an incredibly important purpose. And thank you to all the crypto lawyers out there who are doing that.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:32:02]:
But to an extent, they're advising these institutions. No, you can't jump into this stuff until we have full clarity. We need to know that these are not going to be regarded as securities. We need to know what the rails are going to be before we can safely navigate this stuff. So that has to happen, and I frankly think it's going to happen.

Kyle Lawrence [00:32:22]:
Well, it's interesting that you talk about securities because just this week at the BA Policy Summit, Paul Atkins actually was talking to Miles Jennings and said most of these things are not securities, except quote schemes in which tokens are sold to raise capital. Which is what I've been saying for years.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:32:39]:
Yeah, those monkey JPEGs sound pretty simple, Kyle. Those monkey JPEGs, those pixelated punks, they're not securities. That's interesting. Boy, who, who could have thought that?

Kyle Lawrence [00:32:51]:
Oh, my God, I feel vindicated. Finally.

Kyle Lawrence [00:32:54]:
Who knew it was so simple? Yeah, we talked a lot about Carlo.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:32:59]:
The SEC is creating a sandbox and they're open to a dialogue. You know, we had Gensler who was saying, well, just come in and talk to us and then we'll send you an enforcement letter and shut you down or will sue you into infinity. You know, I think about guys, all of the crypto startups that had such ambitious goals during the first bull run, who are now completely off the chart because they either got regulated out of existence, they burned through their entire Runway of funding and they lost their opportunity, or even worse, they settled and they agreed that they would not do. Do what they were trying to do. That's tragic and so bad for business. And I really feel for those companies because if they just could have hung in there a little bit longer. Now we've got sandboxes and we've got full on dialog with the sec, and Hester Purse is running all over the country having dinners with sector people. I was at one in Dallas with her and I was like, this is amazing.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:34:00]:
Crypto mom is now basically running the show here and, and telling the crypto sector, yes, we want to talk to you. Yes, we want to know what you want to build and yes, we want to actually help you build it in a regulatory compliant way. This is amazing.

Kyle Lawrence [00:34:15]:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's so, you know, when you. She was on our show and it. And I've heard this story from you, I've heard this story from other people that have had dinners with, with her and other public servants because she sends out on Twitter, hey, I'm going to be in Dallas on a Tuesday night. Who wants to meet?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:34:34]:
She's amazing.

Moish Peltz [00:34:34]:
And then. But that style of government of I am here, I'm available for industry to come talk to me, to hear your concerns, and I will work for you. The US Public to make sure that I'm representing you in government and to have a real touch point and ability to connect with the person like that I think is just inspiring versus other styles of governing that may have not been as of a two way conversation along those lines. We've talked a lot about the institutions and the big banks who obviously want to get into this. What about the, you mentioned these companies that they looked at that last NFT cycle and they said, man, everyone that jumped in that was early, they either ran through their Runway, they got burned, or maybe there's a few that are still kind of stringing along. The category we didn't mention is the people that looked at that and said, I'm not even going to go in there, I'm just staying out because it's too crazy. And that I think is probably the biggest tragedy. People that never even they had a dream, they're like, I can't do it, it's too crazy.

Kyle Lawrence [00:35:38]:
So same question now for stable coins, right? The institutions are going to do what they do and have an army of lawyers, whatever for, for those, those, those smaller and medium sized enterprises. You mentioned earlier that every entity can have a stable coin. Now you know who, who really should have a stable coin? Who should look into like, should our law firm have one? Why? You know, like, at what point is it going to make sense for an entity to go through that process? And what does the world even look like with tens of thousands of stablecoins?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:36:11]:
Yeah, I think about this a lot, especially when I'm talking to people who want to launch them. You've got to have a specific use case for it. It's got to provide some kind of value. It goes back to what we experienced during the MEME COIN and ICO era. Like everyone should launch a token. Well, no, probably not. I, you know, probably not. Launching a token comes with a great deal of responsibility because now you have a bunch of people who are holding that token and want to see number go up.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:36:39]:
This is different because there isn't that price volatility. You see, most of the problem that we had with the NFT cycle and the MEME COIN cycle and the ALT cycle is that these are all highly volatile assets that move up and down and most of them are looking for problems to solve and a lot of them frankly didn't solve any realistic problem and that's why their price plummeted and that's probably why they're not going to come back anymore. But for the few that have actual utility, that are actually building to solve problems. The next thing they need to overcome is network effect. Because this stuff doesn't catch on unless there are users who are willing to download the wallet and purchase the token. Stablecoins kind of eliminate all that because they are essentially digital dollars. Now you have a decision as a brand. If you're going to launch a stablecoin and it's going to be your in brand token and you're going to offer people incentives to spend that token at Walmart at the checkout line, because you're going to give them rewards and discounts and all kinds of incentives, well then that probably makes sense if you're running a local dry cleaner.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:37:56]:
This is kind of, to me what happened during the app era. Remember when everybody needed to have an app and it cost thousands of dollars to build an app, but an app didn't do you much good if no one cared about it or downloaded it or even knew how to find it. I kind of liken it to that. You're going to see a lot of people get creative with this stuff, but the big brands that are offering rewards programs and incentives and, and they have a truly captured audience, an ecosystem of people that are going to be immersed into this. And this is different than the crypto rewards programs like the Starbucks and all that stuff that we looked at in the past era, because again, you have the opportunity with these dollars, as long as the code isn't such that it's limited to your ecosystem, you can swap out those branded tokens for fully regulated USDC tokens. So this creates a lot more use cases. So while I agree we're going to see a massive influx of stable coins, and probably most of them didn't need to be stable coins, and they're going to probably fall on the wayside, the big brands, they're going to win here because this, I mean, if, if you look at Target and Walmart and Amazon and the things that they can do with fully regulated stablecoins now that they couldn't, and the fact that they can completely eliminate credit card processing from their payment systems and remit, I mean, they get their money instantly. They don't have to wait days for it.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:39:28]:
They don't have to pay. Now, to the folks out there in TV land, there is one thing the credit cards still went on that stablecoins can't possibly compete with, and that's the ability to reverse transactions and the ability obviously to buy things on margin credit cards you can buy and pay later. Granted, you're going to pay 25% interest when you pay later, stablecoins, the minute you spend it, it's burned and gone and it's out of your wallet. So you got to have the dollars to cover it. So those are two things that are still going to be relevant for credit cards. But I think brands are going to launch Stable coins and we're going to see this gain tremendous traction.

Moish Peltz [00:40:08]:
So when you think about all the brands now that have their own branded credit card, right. So you think about Target and Walmart, all those ones you mentioned, you think about things like airlines which are, you know, I think, I think I read recently are basically a credit card company that operates, you know, some flights. Right. It's kind of how they're, if you look at the business structure and where they make their profits. So I mean, is that the future then? Like all these companies that are now just running, I mean a credit card pro like. Well, like now they have a stablecoin program. If you're Amazon and you're offering 5% discount to prime cardholders now that's just going to be another option for stablecoin prime holders to get that discount. Is that really that different of a world than we're in today?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:40:51]:
It is in this respect because if, if you're running a credit card program, you still have a fee structure, you still have a credit card issuer that you have to deal with. If you're running a stablecoin payment processing program, you're incentivizing the consumer to not swipe their card to make the purchase but to instead use that native branded token and you can give them incentives to do that so you can actually improve your bottom line. You can reward the consumer and you can also engage with the consumer because now you have them in a captured ecosystem where you can wallet to wallet communicate with them. So I think there is a lot of value in that when it comes to the branded stable coins. Now there's one thing about Stable coins that's going to be interesting that I'm watching and thinking about. If we are truly going to see rates go to near zero under the Trump administration. Well, of course that's going to impact the short term Treasuries which are required to be pegged one to one to every stablecoin issued. Tether has made a fortune off of treasury yield.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:41:56]:
USDC and Coinbase have made a fortune off of treasury yield through their relationship. As we start to see Treasuries come down in their rate of return, this is going to put pressure on stablecoin issuers to have to come up with more creative ways to capture revenue. And they're going to have to get creative in an environment where they as issuers are prohibited from directly paying yield to consumers. So what I expect we're going to see, and I've been debating this a lot on my stablecoin solutions Twitter space or X space that I run where I talk about the fact that we have two things going on. We have depository tokens on the bank side which exist as basically fully regulated FDIC insured intra bank tokens. And then we have stablecoins as the off ramp from those depository tokens. This ties back to the thing we started the conversation with. Paxos Circle all getting bank charters.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:42:56]:
They're probably going to have a hybrid where they're going to have a digital asset which operates in their ecosystem, a depository token and then a bridge out to USDC to send overseas to send to consumers to put in DEFI to earn yield. But what that will give them is the advantage that they no longer have to rely on treasury yields as their primary revenue source. Because now they can behave like banks. They can take those deposited tokens and they can put them out in the market. They can pay the consumer interest because now they're kind of a bank. They can also then go out and re hypothecate those stable coins and invest them and put them around the ecosystem and earn interest and yield on them. So this creates a new monetary flywheel. So what I think we're going to see is a hybrid situation where stablecoin issuers are going to have to be more like banks, but also have the off ramp in fully regulated stablecoins.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:43:55]:
Because DeFi is critically important to protect in all of this. And that's why we've been fighting tooth and nail to preserve DEFI in both the genius act and in the market structure. Bill. Because if we lose defi then we lose the whole point of this thing.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:11]:
Well, that's, that's amazing that in they're going to not act like banks, but they're going to be just like banks in terms of the way you.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:44:17]:
Yeah, it's funny, I've been debating this because I've been this guy, you know, banks are make your wallet your bank. That's kind of my catchphrase. But at the end of the day, let's face it, Coinbase is probably going to turn into a bank. As much as they've been fighting the banks, I don't think they have any choice.

Moish Peltz [00:44:35]:
The amount of innovation that's going to happen all around. This is just as you're describing, it can just see, okay? There's. There's so many corners that are unexplored that people are going to try new, interesting things.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:44:45]:
So, yeah, 100%.

Kyle Lawrence [00:44:48]:
It's wild, really curious.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:44:49]:
And that's why I think this is really. This is really the kerosene that we needed. This is the pure jet fuel that we needed to really advanced digital assets. Because once you integrate it into the dollar system. Yeah, look, man, I believe in bitcoin. I believe in the value of bitcoin. I know we're debasing the dollar at an insane rate. I know that we're printing money at infinitum.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:45:14]:
So my slogan has always been stack in SATs, spend in stables, and make your wallet your bank. Because you still need an intermediary currency that people broadly accept. Most bitcoiners don't want to spend their bitcoin because they know that it's going to go up and they don't want to spend their sats on a cup of coffee because it'll kill them to look at that cup of coffee in five years and realize they could have bought a Lamborghini with it. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm joking, but like the pizza guy who bought the pizzas and now only buy a little bit if he didn't buy the pizzas, you still need something in the middle of this. You still need a dollar to, to finance your daily lifestyle. And it's. It's got to be a digital dollar, gang, because everything in our life is becoming more digitized. So why are we still working off of Swifts? Look, I look at Western Union as a classic example.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:46:06]:
I wrote an article where I said that Western Union has just faced its Kodak moment. This is a lumbering dinosaur of a company that has extracted so much money from people, especially people who are here sending money back home overseas and charging exorbitant rates to do it, and running this massive network of brick and mortar. And I liken it to Kodak, because you had Kodak, who controlled the film, who controlled the paper, who controlled the processing, who controlled end to end, but then had this amazing technology called the digital camera, which they kind of sort of invented but didn't push forward as an innovation, and they disappeared because they lost all relevance. And now seeing Western Union come forward and say, yeah, we're going to jump into stablecoins, I'm like, wow, interesting. How much are you going to charge to move those stable coins? Because I Bet you're not going to get away with 6% anymore, right?

Moish Peltz [00:47:06]:
Well, that's the thing is they have these huge businesses or they have a take rate in the teens and now they're going to have to move to a model where they're getting 3, 4 or 5%. But that's, that's the innovator's dilemma, right? You have to, you have to make that choice or you're gone. So they're going to be Kodak if.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:47:23]:
They don't, because it all goes to zero. Guys, if we think about stablecoins as we think about securities, when we went to Robin Hood and we went to zero fee trading for equities where we eliminated the juggernaut of the broker being the only person who could buy stocks on your behalf half and charge you a premium to do it, and we went to all zero fees. Now you have to make money on the spread, which brings down your bottom line. I think we're going to see the same thing with stablecoins. It's going to be a race to who can, who can move stable coins cheaper and faster than other competitors. Because once you remove that intermediary and that fee extraction model, that legacy vampire fee extraction model, now it's a race to zero. It's simple.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:13]:
It's incredible because a minute ago you talked about not wanting to spend your bitcoin to buy, buy coffee. And I'm going to task producer Abby. I'm very sorry, but you're going to have to put together the four or five times during this, during this meeting where you've actually said things verbatim that we've brought up on prior episodes. So have fun with that. Producer Abs but it's true interesting to talk about Western Union and their Kodak moment in earlier you were talking about the flurry of activity that we're going to see. What I'm curious about is, you know, I think you're right about what Trump is going to try to do with the economy. I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a midterm season and there's a lot of irons in the fire for him and he's battling a lot of things, you know, for good or ill.

Kyle Lawrence [00:48:57]:
If the economy in fact takes a downturn in the next couple months, how do you think that will impact the institution of stablecoins and the adoption of stablecoins? Do you think it'll hurt it or help it?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:49:09]:
I think stablecoins enjoy a different position than other risk assets because you don't acquire stablecoins for an expectation of a gain. It's a currency. It is. It was created to act as a digital dollar. And while, while the fact that we might see this backfire and how that might impact risk assets, that's for the chart people to talk about and that's for the macro people to talk about. Because look, we know the tried and true formula is that risk assets like Bitcoin and Alts eventually all catch the wave when liquidity is turned on. And we've been going through a quantitative tightening era where we've had real restraint on the amount of money that's flowing into the system. So I think we can fairly say that if they turn on the spigot to the extent we expect them to, it's going to be great for risk assets.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:50:11]:
It's going to be great for the stocks that benefit from the risk asset environment and from the liquidity environment. Bitcoin tech stocks, cryptocentric stocks, certain alts that are actually building and solving for problems. But Kyle, the problem on the other side of this is massive inflation, continued debasement of the dollar, which hurts people who are already hurting. Now, digital dollars empower consumers to move money cheaper and faster. So I think there'll always be a value there. I think they'll always be a case made to spend in stables. However, for the people who don't have the disposable income to catch the wave of this liquidity run that's about to happen, where they're going to continue to fall behind. And I don't know how we get around that because I know there's a school of thought that, well, we're going to run it hot and we're going to grow our way out of this deficit.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:51:10]:
But look, if you listen to smart people like Lyn Alden and you read the books, you understand that the only way that this thing keeps going is if we just keep printing dollars at infinity and at a certain point the bottom has to fall out of this. Is it going to happen in our lifetime? I don't know. Stablecoins offer an interesting opportunity, in my opinion, to buy some more time for the dollar. Because if Bessing can pull this off, if he can keep dollar as the dominant global currency and he can keep demand for treasuries in the face of China and other nation states turning away from the dollar, well, then he buys the dollar more time. What you do with that time is a judgment that you have to make individually. If you look at this and say this is an opportunity to Buy Bitcoin, which is a hedge against debasement of the dollar, then you may win at the other end of this. But if you sit, and only sit in fiat currency and just watch it continue to debase and you don't grow it, because you have to grow your money in excess of inflation and the debasement of the dollar. And if you're not investing in things that are getting ahead of that, which I've heard is like a general run rate of about 12%, you need to beat 12% to beat debasement and inflation, well, then you're losing money every time they keep printing dollars.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:52:35]:
And that's the tragedy of this all. But I think digital dollars still become relevant even in that scenario, because it's still a low cost way for people to move money. It helps their bottom line.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:46]:
Have you ever thought about writing a book?

Carlo D' Angelo [00:52:50]:
Yes, I have, because you're explaining really.

Kyle Lawrence [00:52:54]:
Complicated things in a very simple and straightforward manner that I take to heart.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:52:59]:
You know, it's funny you say that, because I was talking about it yesterday with a friend about my messaging, and you're right. You've got to present this stuff in simple terms that people can understand, because if you start to talk in technical terms about what's really going on here, you lose people. And we're frankly in a time where you don't have the luxury to be lost much longer. I mean, I put out a lot of content, as you all know. I write, I blog, I podcast, and it's kind of ingrained in me, being a former law professor. I love to teach and I love to help people, and I enjoy giving this sort of value to people. So, Kyle, I appreciate that compliment because I really do work hard to try to communicate these concepts in ways that the average Joe on the street can absorb, because I'm fundamentally worried about what's going to happen to the average Joe on the other side of this. Look, we enjoy a level of privilege as lawyers.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:53:57]:
We, we've, we've, we've got the ability to earn, we've got the ability to have disposable income, to invest. For many Americans, their credit card is eating them alive. And part of what I'm trying to tell people is there's a better way to get around that, get out of that debt cycle, but you've got to grow your fiat. Leaving your fiat in the bank is essentially just chipping away at your net worth, and that's not sustainable.

Kyle Lawrence [00:54:24]:
Yeah, you're just making the bank money at that point.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:54:26]:
Exactly.

Moish Peltz [00:54:27]:
Well, Carlo, this has Been absolutely fantastic. I have to say one of the most interesting conversations you had in the show with, with some really grand policy thought that I think we all have to take home with us and consider a very stable. Carlo is, is one of our best guests and really appreciate you coming on.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:54:48]:
Oh, it is absolutely my pleasure.

Moish Peltz [00:54:50]:
What's next for you? What, what comes.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:54:51]:
What's next for me? Well, continuing to push forward in building this consultancy brand. I. I've got a presence on Tick Tock where I'm trying to educate the average Joe about what's happening and how stable coins can help them stay ahead. So for me it's more of the same. What I'm really enjoying is the freedom that comes with being a consultant as opposed to being a lawyer. Because as a consultant I have more opportunities to speak freely and speak my mind without having to worry about all the constraints and all the limitations that come with being a lawyer in the sector. And while I will still help people who need lawyers, people who need criminal defense lawyers in the digital asset sector, what I really want to accomplish now is I really want to use what I'm building as an opportunity to break people away from dependency on banks and to empower them to move money at their convenience and for pennies. We can no longer allow banks to vampire all of our money out the door.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:56:01]:
The margins are just too thin now. That game doesn't work anymore. And like I said, this is a race to bottom when it comes to fees. And who wins in that? The consumer. The banks and the institutions have had a great run, but now the playing field is getting leveled.

Kyle Lawrence [00:56:18]:
Sorry, they've had a couple hundred years. It's time for somebody.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:56:21]:
Exactly.

Kyle Lawrence [00:56:25]:
Well, that's fantastic, Carlo. We will continue to look forward to more work and more content and just more ass kicking on your part, man. We thank you for your time, we appreciate your insight and we'd love to have you on again. You know, when, when the market structure bill gets, gets approved and signed into law. I'd love to have you on again to hear your thoughts.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:56:43]:
Anytime guys. You know I love you. I'd be delighted to do this anytime. And I'll see you in the trenches, man. Lfg I think this is going to be the year, hopefully 2026, we've waited and waited and waited. Hopefully this is the year that we're all vindicated and we could all go to our spouses and say, see, I told you I'm not crazy. This stuff is going to go up.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:06]:
We did it.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:57:08]:
Thanks guys. Enjoyed it.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:10]:
Excellent well, good seeing you, my friend. And happy holidays.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:57:13]:
Same to you both.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:14]:
Well, that wraps up another episode of Block and Order. Very special thank you and warm holidays to our friend, friend of the pod and friend of ours, Carlo d'. Angelo. We'll put his. Your ability to contact him down in the show notes below.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:27]:
And his Tick tock. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:30]:
Because he generates a lot of content and we really encourage you to check that out.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:34]:
He's.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:34]:
He just has a treasure trove of really fascinating stuff, folks. Please check it out. Don't forget to like and subscribe. All our links down to our socials are down in the show notes. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover, please leave a comment down below. We do, in fact, read all those comments and we will respond to the serious ones, but not the seed phrase ones. I'm going to keep saying that until y' all stop doing it.

Carlo D' Angelo [00:57:53]:
Don't forget that. Nothing.

Moish Peltz [00:57:55]:
I don't think those are the listeners, Kyle. I don't. I don't think they're. They're in it for the content.

Kyle Lawrence [00:57:59]:
It's just like Russian bots.

Moish Peltz [00:58:02]:
That's what it is.

Kyle Lawrence [00:58:04]:
I'm not going to crack. I'm not going to give in. Nothing contained on Block and Order is meant to be construed as financial and or legal advice. Please consult your own representatives if you're going to take the plunge. None of the assets that we discuss on the show is intended in any way to be an endorsement of said assets. Again, just because we talk about it does not mean we endorse it. Very special thank you to OG producer Abby. Without her, this show would not be possible.

Kyle Lawrence [00:58:28]:
So on behalf of mosh pelts, I'm Kyle Lawrence. Keep fighting the good fight, everybody.

Kyle Lawrence [00:58:32]:
See you next time.