Cinema and the Quest for Authentic Representation with filmmaker Jay J. Levy

We are joined this week by filmmaker Jay J. Levy, who offers us a peek behind the curtain of his creative process as a storyteller, his location services business, and his current collaboration with comedy writer Russ Woody: a comedic web series titled, 'Poster Pickers.' Jay does not identify as a gay filmmaker but rather as a filmmaker who happens to be gay. In other words, he strives for the universal. Even so, he shares his views on LGBTQ representation in cinema. We engage in an honest conversation about the challenges of conveying authentic narratives like that of Jay's coming-out film, "Dirty Magazines." The discussion expands to embrace the evolution of queer cinema and how gay film festival audiences' appetites have matured over the years. Moreover, we delve into the portrayal of the LGBTQ+ experience in a changing societal landscape and how the art of cinema can bridge generational divides, serving as a conduit for understanding and healing.
       
Learn more at Dirty Magazines (1st Half)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8IZvVOznpI&list=PLCNbLlFypypyt8S7Q0tOccwpZrPxAWSW7
Poster Pickers  TAR  https://youtu.be/IGqw3tLiUrg
Poster Pickers The Menu   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkjD32ZA_ZE&list=PLCNbLlFypypxlvomwqhRdi0jNgfW73Gkq

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:20

Hi guys and welcome back to Language of the Soul podcast, where life is story. I want to start off today by bringing producer extraordinaire Virginia into the room straight out the gate, because I think she'll have a lot to say about our plea to follow or like us. But this week, some of you regular listeners will know, she gets a new title every two weeks minimum and I've decided. Your title this week is Patron St Virginia.

Speaker 2 0:52

Yes, yes, I've been working on that.

Speaker 1 0:54

You get the award this week for just letting things roll off. I mean, you're balancing a two degree programs, raising a family I know some of your family are out of the house, but the job never ends and you're raising a husband too. So raising a family, two degree programs. Doing this podcast, what else? Oh, and just the drama. Like, we're pretty blessed we don't have a lot of drama around the podcast, but we had a few hitches this week so I just got to watch you.

Speaker 2 1:20

You know, work your magic and let it roll off and not bat an eye watch you, you know, work your magic and let it roll off and not bat an eye. Yeah, I've so, and I can't remember what movie it is, so, forgive me, my husband's probably gonna like cringe when he hears this episode and go like, how do you not remember? Because I just know it has tom hanks in it and it's. It's based on a true story, but it's, um, about a spy from russia that we had here in the us anyways it's based on a true story, in other words, yeah, based on a true story.

Speaker 2 1:45

But anyways, where I'm going with that is the Russian spy, when, of course, the CIA and the FBI are trying to get information out of him, and he, of course, won't cough up any information at all. When Tom Hanks' character shows up, he's like does it help, will it help? And so it's kind of like. I've taken on that motto, since I've seen that movie, especially with my studies Like will it help?

Speaker 1 2:08

Absolutely yeah, like I call it giving airtime to it, right?

Speaker 2 2:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:12

Will it help? Never really is the answer right.

Speaker 2 2:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:16

Giving airtime to a grievance never pays off.

Speaker 2 2:20

Yes, so that has been my mental state about letting things just kind of you know, you just roll the flow.

Speaker 1 2:26

Beautiful. Well, you're practicing it, you're not just preaching it, so it's fun to watch. Anyway, yeah, because I did meet you amid chaos. I think that St George Book Fair that we were talking about in the pre-interview in the green room was, right, a lot of moving tentacles, a lot of moving parts, and you were doing it gracefully. But, like you said, it was your first time and you were kind of thrown into it, I think. Yeah, so it is just amazing to see you. I sound so condescending, right, no matter what, but I've known you for 15 years, 12 years now, yeah, and it seems like you know we hope we learn and grow in life, right, it seems like you've really stepped into that, that grace that we're talking about. Well, thank you, yes, congratulations, you have arrived. You've officially arrived, okay, but anyway, let's not keep our guests waiting in the green room too long.

Speaker 1 3:18

I do want to cover a little more house cleaning. So I was so jazzed to see that we spiked a little bit on YouTube this week. So, in brief, I just want to say don't shy away from YouTube, whether you're a regular listener or not. I know I'm not a big podcast listener, believe it or not, I've got my favorites and of course, I studied a few people before we launched this one and I haven't subscribed to them. So I'll get a notification here or there that a new episode has dropped. But just as often I'm as likely to go to YouTube and seek it out. When I need right inspiration or just a little I don't know intellectual stimulation, I seek it out on an as-needed basis if that makes sense. So I'm more likely to go to YouTube. So I just want to say, don't shy away from that. If you've subscribed to us on Amazon Music or iHeartRadio or wherever, go to YouTube as well. There's a lot of supplemental content on there. The story is so vast but we can't really get to everything in this format.

Speaker 2 4:15

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 4:17

All right. So today's guest we are very excited about and kind of like Virginia and I having met at a forum where I think kindred spirits come together and, of course, under the umbrella of storytelling. So today's guest falls into that category as well, and there's a reason we've maintained friendships all this time. I do see us as kindred spirits. You can tell me if I'm wrong, Jay, and I'm letting the cat out of the bag. Today's guest is named Jay and I will read Jay's bio. Of course, if I butcher anything, it's on you to correct me.

Speaker 1 4:50

All right, JJ Levy is a writer, director and location scout, doing each with equal passion and precision. Dirty Magazines was his first breakout short film that won a number of best film and best short nods, and that's how we met. Actually, I'd love to talk about that. Unnerving comedy with a serious undertone seems to be the voice at play. I could not agree more. I just re-watched Brita's Turn and Dirty Magazines last night and that really puts it in a nutshell Unnerving comedy with a serious undertone. An absurd new web series, the Poster Pickers, which I also watched a couple episodes of last night, is also available as Jay partners with established comedy writer Russ Woody to pose as contentious film critics who recommend films based solely on the poster. It's hysterical, by the way, that's my one-word review hysterical. Welcome, Jay Levy.

Speaker 3 5:48

Thank you very much, very happy to be here, and I'm actually a Levy, I'm sorry when I read the bio. I said it right. Right, you're halfway there. Jj Levy at your service.

Speaker 1 6:03

But no, I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm glad. Yeah, one one thing, I guess. I mean there's so much to follow up on, but just going from the bio, I'd love to talk about how we met. I do know that it was my first expressly gay themed film and it was really my first time navigating the queer film festival circuit that's the terminology I'm using and, um, I believe it was your breakout film as well, right, yeah, absolutely, I.

Speaker 3 6:30

I've been a viewer, I'm participant that way, but that was my first uh contribution, my first entry into that as a player right, yeah, so I think there's.

Speaker 1 6:41

For me there's been a learning curve. I I don't know how many queer film festivals you attended or you know if you accompanied it each time, but I had, you know, a takeaway. I would love to compare notes with you. To start, I know that you and I both again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I believe you and I both identify not necessarily as queer or gay filmmakers, but as filmmakers, slash storytellers who happen to be gay. Does that sound right.

Speaker 3 7:09

Absolutely. That's it in a nutshell. It's always been my goal and that's always been my hesitancy to even make Dirty Magazines a theme film because of the pigeonhole quality. That has been the mission all along. It's been an interesting journey to try to kind of dance back and forth between like being oh, what movies? What do you make? What do you? What stories do you tell? Oh well, I told this one, but I also told one about my grandmother and I also told one about straight people.

Speaker 1 7:41

You know, like it's, it's nothing for me, yeah, and I mean your grandmother, is she frida or lena?

Speaker 3 7:49

so the the film you're talking about is, uh, frida's turn right, which started as a movie called aunt lena. Right and aunt lena is a story my grandmother told me about a relative of ours, uh, way back when. That's kind of a racy past, it's kind of a off-color hidden tale, and my grandmother would tell me this story, um, as a way to inspire me. She was always trying to help me as the ultimate stage, mother, stage grandmother in her case.

Speaker 1 8:23

But life being the stage or yeah, well, yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 3 8:28

Just, she wanted me to succeed and here's a story. Make this into a movie, uh. But actually the story was her, um, her, my grandmother, how she was affected by aunt lena, who was this racy broad in the 20s, and um what happened, uh, with her as a, as a child and and so like. That's what I focused on and that's the story of frida's turn, not the story of aunt lena right.

Speaker 1 8:57

Yeah, you don't have to give any spoilers. It's a really beautiful film, thank you. And uh, I guess I was momentarily when you mentioned your grandmother. I thought, oh, wait a minute, is that Frida or Lena? Cause I knew you called her aunt Lena in the story in the film.

Speaker 3 9:11

Yeah, the grandmother character is embodied in Frida. Yeah, she's fascinating.

Speaker 1 9:17

Yeah, yeah, I don't want to say too much, especially if you know I'm going to issue spoilers, but it's a really beautiful film and it is that in my opinion. You know it's. I think there's a lot of awkward comedy out there with Larry David, seinfeld and, of course, larry David. Yeah, like that's kind of run its course and this isn't awkward comedy, but it is actually quite uncomfortable territory and there's comedy in it. Does that sound right? I mean, life is full of potentially triggering or challenging circumstances, but there is humor in it.

Speaker 3 9:54

Oh, I hope so. Yeah, it's a way to get through it sometimes yeah, exactly, and you strike that balance.

Speaker 1 10:00

Anyway, it's really poetic and beautiful and I've often said American films don't tend to trust audiences enough in terms of tone. Right, if it's comedic, it's got to be a knee slapper. If it's poignant, it's got to be poignant, but don't you dare venture into comedic territory. Whereas I find foreign films trust audiences more if that makes sense, or art films or niche films can have a broader range in terms of tone. Does that resonate with you at all, kind of trusting your audience to be sophisticated enough?

Speaker 3 10:30

to go there. Oh, absolutely. I think there's a lot of fear that, oh, if it's not a knee slapper, like you say, people are going to get confused halfway through if you get serious. Of course there's the danger of the filmmaker that all of a sudden does take a dramatic left turn and all of a sudden it is an entirely different story of this tragic it. It's a. It has to be, you know, sculpted. It's a very nuanced thing. It can go off the rails. It's not an unfounded fear, but, like I think I think people appreciate all different tones within the same story. I think a lot of like limited series on streaming networks all of a sudden, everyone's kind of taking more chances that way, yep, in terms of tone yeah.

Speaker 3 11:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 11:17

And I do think it's a marketing concern often, which makes sense how do we market this? But beyond that, I just think it's, you know, repeating tropes that are familiar in a way, and there was a filmmaker called Gaspar. No, did you ever happen to see Irreversible Mm-mm?

Speaker 1 11:35

I feel, like it was late 90s, early 2000s. It's a very disturbing film that I don't recommend because, even though I like dark films that challenge you, right it, it'll take you a weekend to recover. You will be in the fetal position for the weekend. So I've actually shared it with my students to illustrate a point and then I go, but I'm not recommending it, like for legal reasons. Should you be triggered, I'm not recommending it.

Speaker 1 12:02

It's it, I won't say too much, but kind of like Lars von Trier, controversial. So when people are uncomfortable, right, you get accused of a number of things. He was accused of being a Nazi and trying to habituate people to violence and all these other things and I thought, no, technically it's too good, technically there must be more. And he said, basically I was just trying to create heaven and hell on screen within one cinematic experience. So that's kind of what we're talking about just trusting an audience to come along for the ride, and I think you're right. There's a very real fear that you'll go off the rails. It is tricky. My contention is, if you need more exposition three quarters of the way through the film to move on to the next act and I think it was the film AI. Where they did it, it came to a screeching halt. Then you literally got a lecture from a university lecture hall to give you the needed information to move on to the next act. Now you're in a different movie.

Speaker 3 13:03

Yeah, and actually did you see Downsizing?

Speaker 1 13:07

I did not Okay so.

Speaker 3 13:07

Downsizing was a brilliant, absurd, hilarious concept of having to shrink yourself down to simplify your life. It was with Matt Damon and Kristen Wiig at the top and it was brilliant for about 35 minutes and then it became about something else. Right, totally different movie. Wow, I don't. I love under a serious like a, like the bio says, the serious undertone I love what's underneath all that frivolous kind of absurd comedy.

Speaker 3 13:44

Great, but then it took it and ran with it, stage left and it lost its audience, unfortunately. Wow, and that's like an example of going off the rails.

Speaker 1 13:57

But why do you suppose that happened? It can happen based on a test screening or right higher-ups, the money, people having silly opinions. Uh, how do you think that happened? Or did it just not know what story it was trying to tell in the first place?

Exploring Filmmaking and Authenticity

Speaker 3 14:11

I I wish I knew. So much happens behind the scenes that, um, I don't know if, if in the making of it, they discovered all this great stuff that told this other part of the story. And you know, you're in this tunnel of filmmaking and you think that you're in the same world and you need an objective voice saying actually no, you're not in the same world anymore, you've left the building. You know you have to have a trusted, you know reality check. Right, I mean, on my teeny, tiny level with my short films, I did get that reality check a couple of times and I fought it, but I trusted the source. I thought about it so, like I could imagine on a huge level that Alexander Payne directed this film and he's brilliant, visionary, brilliant and I love his films but like, maybe he didn't have that objective voice right, or feedback didn't listen to the feedback and you don't.

Speaker 1 15:10

Films don't have to land with everybody all the time. Right, you can have your elite audience. But mainstream commercial films, right, you do have to listen to the feedback. But in that I also hear you trusted the inspiration. So, right, life is stranger than fiction. It came from life. You followed that muse and trusted it and it does transcend and resonate, because I'm just appreciating that. You know that you trusted the inspiration and sometimes yeah, yes yeah storytellers do things for the wrong reasons sometimes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 15:41

Yeah, truly, sometimes doing dirty magazines took a little doing, shall I say, because it is a personal, mostly autobiographical, you know, coming out of the closet or being forced out of it through your secretive activities. And then I kind of built on it and it kind of made it absurdly fun it. It was hard to tell it wasn't something that is like, hey, I'm gonna put pen to paper and tell my story. Uh, it took years to kind of get the emotional bravery to just like, okay, okay, yes, let's do this and do it my, my personal way that I'm comfortable with, which is apparently through yeah, it seems like that's something you discovered over time.

Speaker 1 16:24

You didn't set out to say I'm gonna uh, you know, find the comedy and awkwardness, but it seems like that's something you discovered over time. You didn't set out to say I'm gonna, uh, you know, find the comedy and awkwardness, but it seems like in retrospect. You're like oh, that seems to be my brand, or at least the last few projects.

Speaker 3 16:35

Yeah, fair to say yeah, I write in the way that I can get the information out, and this, this is just how it it seems to innately happen. And then, oh, okay, and then people give you feedback and, like you don't, sometimes, uh, you don't know what you wrote until right, right, but does it seem to align with your world view?

Speaker 1 16:56

in other words, yeah, it truly does, absolutely. And because I just watched it last night I don't want to make it about my review of dirty magazines, but I really hadn't seen it since uh, that I guess it was Austin, uh, egliff, austin Gay and Lesbian Film Festival. Yeah, so it's been years and I will say I don't know, tell me if you relate to this as a gay man. It's like, I mean, adolescence is excruciating for everybody, right, we're all awkward, we all have pimples, it's, it's, it's awkward. And then you add that extra layer, right, of having a dirty secret or whatever it is. It's just awkward.

Speaker 1 17:36

So I do think you know they say it gets better, that whole campaign, it gets better. Well, you do stuff it away and I started identifying as somebody who's authentic and you know what I mean and unapologetic about my sexuality, and you just really start self-identifying that way, to the point where you forget how painful it is or you just don't want to look at it. I'm telling you I've seen a lot of coming out films and this is something I want to talk to you about in a minute how there are identifiers within the queer film festival circuit about what constitutes gay content. I I will just say, watching your film again last night brought me back, and in a good way.

Speaker 1 18:13

I was like, oh my god, I forgot how excruciating and, yes, awkward and hilarious it is and it's very real stuff that I have stuffed away and not chosen to talk about so much. You know I've talked about other things. Does that make you get that feedback a lot that it takes people back?

Speaker 3 18:31

I do. Gay and straight people came up to me after the film screenings and identified with you know, the whole hiding the magazine underneath the bed thing, you know, and how it plays out with them magazine underneath the bed thing, you know, and how it plays out with them. And people just like pouring their personal stories out to me after a screening. It was fantastic.

Speaker 1 18:52

And it is universal right that awkwardness of puberty is universal.

Speaker 3 18:56

It was, and that was my hope. It wasn't. Just I'm going to tell a gay coming out story because I'd been to the LGBT festivals enough to know that there's tons of them out there and actually my friends convinced me to write this and follow through with it because I said, no, who needs another coming out story? And then no, no, they want this one. This one's good. Tell this one, we want this one. No, really trusted friends told, said no, no, you have to share this because it's about the mother as much as it is about the son. Yes, absolutely.

Exploring LGBTQ Representation in Film

Speaker 1 19:26

It is so universal in that way, and I do want to get to the, in my opinion limited list of identifiers that programmers think the gay audiences are interested in, which has broadened. But before that, I do want to say maybe the universality of the themes in dirty magazines is, uh, the stakes are just higher, right, like when you choose romeo and juliet as your template. Forbidden love, you get to up the stakes. So, even though what the mother went through is universal and what the awkward teen I don't want to put words in your mouth but, you seem to be on the cusp.

Speaker 2 20:01

Well, the cusp of puberty.

Speaker 1 20:02

right, it's the the agony of adolescence, but the stakes seem to be on the cusp of puberty. Right, it's the agony of adolescence, but the stakes seem to be heightened. Everybody's got shame around their body and their sexual impulses in adolescence, but the stakes are a little higher when do you know what I mean? You could be disowned, or your bags could be packed and put on the porch.

Speaker 3 20:19

Yeah, if a playboy is found under a straight boy's bed, there's almost a sense of pride from the father. Oh, my boy's grown up. You know if a man there's a blue boy or a man, is it Manhunt. Or like some gay porn is found under a teenage boy's bed from a father. Shame and judgment, and I mean there's a totally different walk of life that happens in that moment.

Speaker 1 20:46

So yeah, it really captured the 80s beautifully and I've often said, you know, even john hughes didn't quite nail it. I watch his films. I'm like, yeah, they're, they're coming of age films and blah, blah, blah. The brat pack. And yeah, all the bold colors and all that z what was it? Z? Gallery furniture. But I'm sorry, I grew up in LA, we were way cooler than that. So there's a cliche trope of the eighties that just is not accurate. You know, in junior high we were on the cusp of Oi, ska, punk rock, mod, if you remember mod, and we shopped at thrift shops and everything was vintage and it wasn't the big teased hair. That is a cliche. So I know you've got, because I read some of the reviews on youtube. You captured the 80s probably better than john hughes oh, my gosh music to my ears.

Speaker 3 21:36

no, I I think painstakingly again, through my own lens obviously, but like great efforts were made to achieve, thank you.

Speaker 1 21:46

Yeah, well, I think people get lazy right In terms of in all period pieces and it's kind of pet peeve of mine, right? My mom, sorry is a cosmetologist and a costumer and so if I see feathered hair in Greece I'm like, oh my God, come on, but that was the seventies disco version of the fifties. Anyway, if they're trying to be authentic and then they just get lazy and don't do their research, you noticed right that no, no, that feather hair would not have happened. Sorry, that's a time traveler.

Speaker 3 22:17

Right, and if you were there you know no, that's 1977. That's not 1983.

Speaker 1 22:22

Thank you very much Right, right. So I loved your preppy double collar, right, the flipped up collar and all that, thank you. But anyway, I guess my point is it is a product of its era so parents obviously know more now and would probably react a little differently across the board. But if share had a problem with chas, right, that says a lot. Share had a problem with Chaz right, that says a lot. Cher had a learning curve. She seems progressive, she seems open-minded, she seems liberal, but she'll confess, no, I didn't do well with it in the beginning in terms of the gender transition.

Speaker 3 22:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:56

So anyway, do you feel-.

Speaker 3 22:58

To be a parent. I'm not a parent. I don't know what it's like to be. I mean, there's so much involved with the hopes and dreams of your child and what you think is going to happen. Versus what does? I completely empathize with this and actually this film. I did not intend this. It it served as a very healing thing by my own mom. Uh, when she watched it I think she was very afraid to watch it, how I was representing her and just a very loaded topic that was still discussed in hushed tones well into my 30s right. So it was very healing.

Speaker 1 23:31

That's beautiful yeah, you do show a lot. They're not just dimensional characters, but there is compassion there for sure. Beautiful, well, well, I had a so similar but kind of opposite experience An Outpost. It's the story of my grandmother, but nothing. Well, it is a gay themed film, but it was just, and she is the core of the film. Let me rethink this. It wasn't so much about her reaction to seeing gay images or characters, in other words, but it just happened to be a gay themed film and she happened to be, uh, represented, I might. And you know nancy, I remember virginia nancy came on a few weeks ago anyway, amazing actress portraying my grandmother, and a lot of it was autobiographical. So we brought her to the vista here in los filas, which is a great old Hollywood theater close to the Egyptian, you know, in terms of Vista.

Speaker 3 24:26

Yeah, I love the.

Speaker 1 24:26

Vista my gosh, it's a great theater.

Speaker 1 24:29

I don't go anywhere else if I can't. If I can see a movie there, that's where I see it, and they just reopened, by the way, anyway. So my premiere was at the Vista and I brought my grandmother and it was towards the end. She was in a wheelchair and but still very much, still very sharp, and they wheeled her out because I had three other films. I did a mini film festival and I invited a couple other gay themed films to contribute, but they were a little more graphic, so they wheeled grandma out to the lobby for a couple of those. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, you got to observe the boundaries and the comfort zones, for sure, although I've often said too, you know she's seen it all. She was probably 90 when that happened and they just called them bachelors in her day. But you know what I mean. They've seen it all. Just don't talk about it. Yeah, it's just different terminology Dandies. What are the other derogatory words? Bachelors?

Speaker 1 25:22

I think um my grandmother once said oh, he's a personality he's eccentric yes, an eccentric personality okay, all right, a little light in the loafers anyway. So I do want to ask you, I guess, to see if you have the same take. I feel like you have niche films that are intended for the gay community, and I call that a little bit of ghettoization, right. Then you have mainstream crossover films and then everything in between, and that goes for marketing and programmers. There's a slightly different mentality there, but I have noticed, you know, it started with, uh, chad Allen, and I worked with him on a couple projects, and then his production company called Myth Garden, and then you saw Neil Patrick Harris, both their production companies and even Matt Bomer.

Speaker 1 26:14

Now they're really making it an objective to tell all of our stories. They seem to be really conscious of. You know what we need to do our hard boiled detective stories. We need our gay superheroes. We want to fulfill every niche. We want it all right. Yeah, I would say, even when you and I did the queer film festival circuit, there was a very short list of identifiers as far as what they thought would hold the attention of gay audiences right, or what even constituted a gay themed film. Do you have a feeling for what that was at the time?

Speaker 3 26:48

sure, I, I I, as I clear my throat, um, because I do have strong feelings about this, and they may or may not be mainstream opinions. Um, there seems to always be a drag queen oriented film, right. There always seems to be, um, you know, a family based film of struggling with the child's identity, but you know whether mine fits into that or not.

Speaker 1 27:18

Coming out. Is that a good word Coming out film.

Speaker 3 27:20

Coming out, yeah, coming out story. There seems to be to be a very specific like, not politically motivated, but maybe something that serves an agenda to broaden the scope of what LGBTQ is movie Moonlight did. Or you have this African-American, you know gay but you know trying to be himself in the confines of this specific tough world that he's living in. But he's obviously a gay man having trouble to be being a gay man. That was a triumph because we know we never saw that really right oh, so you said to broaden right, right Broaden.

Speaker 1 28:03

Ah, okay, yes, yeah. Maybe get us to rethink our presumptions about these stereotypes and tropes and go actually, this is a type of gay character you've never seen. Yep, like oh, oh that that kind of person exists too. I never saw that before. That's a a eye opener. Like there's.

Speaker 3 28:26

like those eye opener films. Yeah, there's diversity within the lgbtq community right, we're not from one mold, yeah, oh very much. Not from the same mold, absolutely. And um, I don't know what this seems to be like a romance or an attempt to just tell a romantic gay story, whether gay, lesbian or otherwise. I have a normal romantic story that just happens to be gay. Right, what about you? What do?

Speaker 1 28:51

you think I agree with all of those. I love it, and I wasn't trying to get you to parrot my opinions, but I see some alignment there. I'm not crazy. Well, I mean, let's not go that far. Yeah, I didn't say that. Yeah, that was the other voice in my head. Yeah, I didn't say that. Yeah, that was the other voice in my head. You're not crazy. No, you definitely confirmed my hunch.

Speaker 3 29:11

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your conversation.

Speaker 1 29:16

How dare you I call them the usual suspects has been, yes, your coming out story, something about being marginalized or ostracized or experiencing prejudice or even outright hatred. Um, aids, you know that was a big one for a long time. Oh yeah, and you know. And then there are reasons for this. You have the boys in the band. You have these kind of milestones that become templates.

Speaker 1 29:43

So all of the above, everything you said, but I would add, on the other end, there was the fluff, right the skin. So if it wasn't about circuit parties and there weren't enough oiled up muscle men, then we're you know, we're not going to hold the attention. So it was. It was a balance of all that and to the programmer's credit, I like that. You know, I never even thought about, you're right, there was always a nice innocent romance as well. But I guess I like that. It's broadening and we're telling a variety of stories and that does include Moonlight, right, showing gay characters that maybe are passers. Right, they don't fulfill the expectations of the mainstream and I also call that the jester role, like we're supposed to be novelties. Have you watched the latest Capote thing with the swans?

Speaker 3 30:35

No, it's on the short list. I definitely want to, and I know that Ryan Murphy is going to have a lot to say about that in the way that he presents it. So, yeah, I'm eagerly waiting to see that.

Speaker 1 30:46

Yeah, it's. They say it really beautifully in that that, specifically, the New York socialites want their entertainment. So I see a lot of, in the media and just in life, people very willing to fulfill the expectations of the mainstream to make them more comfortable. I'll be your jester. I'll be, like we said earlier, the eccentric character, or the mannered or the affected character, because it makes you more comfortable.

The Changing Landscape of LGBTQ Representation

Speaker 1 31:11

And that's my yeah, my personal opinion, but I think it. There's room for all of it and that's the beauty of I'm seeing a lot more diversity, uh, but there's maybe and I want to throw this out there too and see how you feel, feel. The metaphor I use is the bars. In my neighborhood you used to have the niche, the leather bars, even the pool bars, and because it's a Silver Lake, not West Hollywood, right, so you had this gritty subculture that did indulge fetish and it was a ghetto. And then, now that you know it's progress, there's more normalization. You know, now we can have marriage equality and we can adopt, and so there's more normalization. You know, now we can have, uh, marriage equality and we can adopt, and so there's this merging and, symbolically, every bar in my neighborhood is now mixed. So, cuff, you know, you name it basic plumbing and the names speak for themselves.

Speaker 3 31:58

Yes, they do those that are not in los angeles. Every city has them, right, right.

Speaker 1 32:06

The Velvet Spike, was that the one on Will and Grace, anyway? But Cuffs, basic, plumbing, queen of Hearts, detour, woody's, every single one is, quote unquote, mixed. So there is a subsection of the LGBTQ community that will say, well, but I miss, I miss all that because those are my peeps. So there's a nostalgia attached to that. It is progress that we're more integrated now with the mainstream society, but it all the bars are mixed now. So in content like streaming content, in cinematic content that gets theatrical release across the board, is there such thing as a gay theme Sorry, yeah, gay themed film anymore? Or is everything mainstream?

Speaker 3 32:51

You know, people aren't going to the movies the way they used to. They're staying home and streaming, and, I think, in the privacy of your own home. It's allowing people to feel more comfortable in watching LGBT content, if you will.

Speaker 3 33:08

They don't have to go pay money for a ticket at a window and say I'm going to see a gay film now thank you, I never thought of that, so I think that because of that, like fellow travelers and other, recent things have become critically acclaimed and more watched because I can do it at home without making myself known um there's, you know what I'm saying like, yes, wow, I never thought of that.

Speaker 1 33:38

I mean, I will say I relate to that in that years ago I think it was called crash, it was one of two films called crash, not the one that won the oscar. I don't think this is the one where, like, there was stump sex and all kinds of like subcultures of weird sex and then this was a subsection of the population that is turned on by car accidents. Because you know, know, oh, holly Hunter, yeah, yeah, and I think James Spader, and then Tommy Lee Jones. They kissed at one point and, granted, the characters were sleazy and you were supposed to identify and go, ooh, his unshaven jaw. That would be for straight guys, right, ooh, that would be nasty because he was a sleazy character.

Speaker 1 34:25

But I remember literally all the teenagers squirmed and laughed and got, you know, their popcorn flew and I thought, wow, that speaks volumes. And then even bros, recently, if I had seen it in West Hollywood it would have landed as a comedy. I would have had that vicarious thrill of everybody laughing and identifying. I saw it in Glendale, you know, and the Armenian community can be very conservative and so you know, I'm smart enough to not base my opinion on the audience response, but it certainly would have helped right to be surrounded by people that were laughing and identifying. So I do think you're absolutely right. Maybe again the list is really long, but the last of us, um, fellow travelers, all of us, strangers, even salt burn, even though it's not gay themed per se, the broom tones?

Speaker 3 35:19

I guess. Yeah, what is it? I haven't seen it, but I hear it has undertones.

Speaker 1 35:24

Yes, oh yeah. Well, it's up to the viewer to decide if this is a gay crush or not, but it's certainly walking that line where, yeah, jacob Elordi, you could just look at him for hours. It's really. It's kind of like Ripley, that archetype of actually some kind of ineptness on the part of the runt character or the sissy right, call it what you want but that archetype of malnourished gay man envying right somebody.

Speaker 3 35:54

that's more images come to mind. It must be nourished from the alpha male right off of your masculinity right fellow travelers even has that like.

Speaker 1 36:05

Anyway, I don't want to go on and on about that, but I think what I'm getting at is more so. The way they're promoting these things in the media is hopeful to me. It's okay to have a bromance now. Both actors are straight, but you've got barry keegan and jacob alorti literally humping each other in media interviews and press kits. I love it.

Speaker 3 36:25

Yeah, the comfort zone has changed, obviously shifted dramatically in what can be spoken about or even joked around about, and not in mocking terms, even just like in fun, playful oh, who cares anymore, you know kind of terms.

Speaker 1 36:38

Yeah, or even taking a stand, like Nick Offerman, after. Oh yeah, I love what he said Last of us, was it what he said last of us, was it?

Speaker 3 36:49

yes, the last of us. I love that people. That was an amazing moment. No, that's.

Speaker 1 36:52

That's like this huge leap forward, yep do you want to go into what the significance? I think I know what, why it's a milestone, but go ahead. Well, what about that love story? Do you think was a leap forward? Had we not seen that particular kind of love story before? Is that it In that?

Speaker 3 37:13

impassioned kind of two people in love kind of way. I think that was brazen. And then you had Nick Offerman playing one of these roles, which is unexpected to see him in that role yes, yeah, I mean we can assume, right, he's married to megan mulally.

Speaker 1 37:33

For god's sake, right, mulally um. But we can assume he's progressive and liberal and we can guess at his politics. But he's definitely blue collar, right? He's hyper's hyper masculine and rough.

Speaker 1 37:45

Yeah, love it. So, yes, him. That's what I mean by sort of the images we're seeing in the promotion of these films speaks volumes. And the normalization of just appreciation, right, straight guys appreciating gay love and championing it, it's really progress. But with Nick, you're right, that love story was like ah two, two guys that are not obviously gay, right, or they don't fulfill the stereotype. But it's the universal need for intimacy under those circumstances and it kind of makes people realize for the first time maybe that oh wow, the human heart is the same, straight or gay.

Speaker 1 38:27

And to go down that road, you know, I have some very liberal, progressive friends that I assumed are, you know, my generation. They're pretty hip, they're pretty cool. But after seeing Outpost they wrote, I put a little book out at the premiere and some of the feedback was like, oh my, my god, I actually never clicked for me that the human heart is the same, straight or gay, the mechanics are the same, we all want the same things. And so I thought, well, my job is done. But then and I this is I'm going to make a point and ask you what you think.

Speaker 1 38:58

But you know, then billy eichner, in promoting bros, comes out and says I mean, it's right there in the song Love is not love, nope, different rules. So I get it in that we are socialized, call it the gay agenda. But there is a spoon feeding going on within the gay community that says, actually, you're not subject to the relationship models of mainstream society, you're free to invent your own and to self-create, right In the spirit of this podcast, to write your own story. Yeah, so that's the beautiful part. But then the other side would say, oh no, it's, it's grooming, it's right, it's the gay agenda. It's actually just broadening our definitions of, uh, institutions and relationships.

Speaker 3 39:43

Gay agenda. I always have just an absurdly comic moment inside of me whenever I hear that phrase. Gay agenda for me is just to get through the friggin' day with some kind of dignity and perspective. There's no gay agenda.

Speaker 1 40:04

Well, but they're calling normalization an agenda. It's like, no, we're just trying to get you to be human actually.

Speaker 3 40:09

Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. Sorry that humanity is an agenda Right. Sorry about that, right. Sorry that that is.

Speaker 1 40:18

Virginia. I probably told you this as well. Every last high school friend has come to me when their kid comes out because I'm the authority. I'm being a little facetious, but I literally have had probably five friends that I grew up with come to me for ostensibly counseling when their kid comes out and they never take my advice. Now I'm Annie Leibovitz, like they just actually I'm free, I'm glad to give advice, but they have never taken it. But really, at some point in every one of the conversations when they go yeah, I heard what you said for the past 45 minutes and I don't buy any of it. They'll say that, but I'm still. You know, my Christian values still trump all of that and I'll I.

Speaker 1 41:02

I ended up saying, yeah, there's no agenda here. All I'm trying to do is get your kid not to kill himself. Yeah, I've heard myself say that. Like, all I'm trying to do is reduce the suicide rate. So there you go, without explaining the mechanics of right and being told you're going to burn in hell for all eternity, over and over again, what that does to somebody's development right, or their internalization of self-loathing, all of that right. But yeah, it's just. I think the agenda is just. Let's all be human.

Generational Differences in LGBT Advocacy

Speaker 3 41:34

Yeah, the burning in health thing is not a big motivator to come out. It's not an inspiration to be yourself. But like this, how are we calling 30 and unders gen z?

Speaker 1 41:51

right? I think so okay.

Speaker 3 41:53

so you and I are similar age, um in our 50s, uh but, like anyone under 30, seems to be very nonchalant about oh yeah, yeah, it's really not a big deal. I have gay friends. It doesn't define them. I came out to my parents when I was 14. What you did, what, that didn't even cross my mind. There's an awareness, this kind of mindset I am who I am and just deal with it kind of thing next generation that I have never imagined. It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 42:28

I mean, yeah, well, I think there's always been the conversation around a militant approach, right, and just working with the system, and in which case you're complacent and part of the problem and not the solution. I think there's room for all of it, right. I've often said I'm just an example to my 22 nieces and nephews and as a good son and a good uncle, and that's been enough. And then I do make my difference through my storytelling. But I'm not, it's not even that I'm not political, because it's also been said that if you don't care about politics, you don't care about human rights or personal liberty and all that. I am political. But I actually know and, Virginia, this is in the spirit of the podcast that you make a bigger difference in the narrative realm than the didactic. So persuading only goes so far, whereas with storytelling you change minds by touching hearts.

Speaker 3 43:19

So that's how I roll. You depersonalize it. The beauty of a film or reading something is like you don't have someone in your face saying you're wrong. You must believe this or else you're an asshole. You just kind of watch the story and you have a catharsis with whatever you see or you're offended or you're drawn to whatever you see kind of privately. You make that kind of shift inside yourself and that's the beauty of what can actually happen with the right story.

Speaker 1 43:51

I love it. Yeah, you're speaking my language and, it's true, the catharsis happens within and it's chemical really the oxytocin and dopamine and epinephrine and all those euphoric chemicals that actually are tribal bonding. Right, that happens when you indulge a story. But I guess with persuasion, people also just dig in their heels more and fall back on cherry picking and confirmation bias and all those other old tricks. Because ego is what it is, you're going to dig in your heels more if that makes sense, whereas, yeah, you walk into a theater voluntarily and you smell that popcorn and you're just more receptive somehow.

Speaker 3 44:33

Okay, so in the spirit of the podcast, as you say, so like if it's based in story and the stories we tell ourselves in the gay community. So like growing up in the 80s I saw films like you know, parting Glances in the mid 80s, you know, as AIDS was exploding and that it was like to be gay, meant to have AIDS all of a sudden.

Speaker 3 45:01

I didn't see that one but I will. Oh my God, you have to see this movie. It's a beautiful, sad, funny, you know, amazing film that encompassed, like this time of Steve Buscemi's in it, kind of put him on.

Speaker 1 45:18

I was about to ask anyone I would know in it. Oh yeah, oh, lots of people. Was he known at the time?

Speaker 3 45:23

I don't remember Not really he did art films like of people. Was he known at the time? I don't remember. Not really. He did art films like very small. He maybe did a couple and this was like one of three that he had done. But it really put him on the map because he was amazing in it and just gay life and represented people getting sick in a way. That was what's going on. But anyway, this is see, I was uh it's probably 17 when I saw this. These are the images of gay people.

Speaker 1 45:51

These are the gay stories, like making love, that movie yes, yes, of course and just like no one was proud of themselves, I don't remember making love too well, but isn't there this archetype of homewrecker as well? There's something predatory about the gay character pretty much always, but they're often a homewrecker, yeah.

Speaker 3 46:15

And was drawn into the seductive, seduced by the gay character. He had inclinations.

Speaker 1 46:23

anyway, it wasn't like the gay person's fault, but maybe a little bit of the homewrecker is going on there yeah well, I mean even broke back, for I mean there's been a million right, oh my god, fellow travelers broke back, even the good ones. There is this persistent archetype type that's predatory, and I would say the same of lesbians. There's always gotta be something creepy. Did you see, carol, by chance?

Speaker 3 46:46

Yes.

Speaker 1 46:47

Todd Haynes right, yes, like I love Cate Blanchett, but why is she creepy and predatory? Not necessary people, that's, that's an old trope.

Speaker 3 46:57

Anyway, there's a million examples, but anyway, you were drawing, I think, drawing a comparison between you know the films you and I were exposed to at a very formative time, maybe the 80s depictions of being gay versus now yeah, that's kind of where I was going because, like you see these stories that you see privately and you make um determinations about yourself when you, when you see these things, when you're especially when you're growing up and a long-term companion, again aids based and, you know, loss based, and but it was a very good movie because it it did it in a much more um, loving, normalized, like, oh, gay people are not creeps, gay people are not predators, they have these loving, meaningful, long relationships and please respect that. You know that was the message that I got from it. Beautiful, I appreciated it, although it's very sad. But like, where I finally saw something that I identified with because I I didn't for a long time was, oddly enough, the movie Trick Did you ever see it?

Speaker 1 48:10

Yes, of course, jim Fall. I've tried to get Jim on here. By the way, do you know the director, jim Fall? I have never met Jim Fall. Well, he went on to do the Lizzie McGuire movies. He's kind of an abc. Um, oh okay, disney, uh, product now. But yes, trick and trick too right I think so.

Speaker 3 48:34

I don't think I saw trick too. But what? What was amazing about trick was you had this cute not gorgeous, but cute approachable guy who just happens to be gay and he's looking for love just like anyone. But he's just a guy and he runs into this studly handsome go-go boy Again. So we enter with expectations. And the go-go boy has a sense of humor and he's got a family, he's got a life. He's much more dimension than any other go-go boy, has a sense of humor and he's got a family, he's got a life. He's much more dimension than any other go-go boy on screen.

Speaker 1 49:09

And probably in West Hollywood, yeah.

Speaker 3 49:12

But you have this sweet, endearing film. There's about two people connecting.

Speaker 1 49:18

And there's. No, it's not a cautionary tale or a tragedy, in other words right, exactly, cautionary tale or a tragedy.

Speaker 3 49:29

In other words, right, exactly, no tragedy anywhere, except maybe coco peru's big wonderful speech in the bathroom. Right, but um, it represented gay life unapologetically, but didn't, didn't make it about that. It made it about these people who are three-dimensional gay people.

Speaker 1 49:44

That's all of it. I call it aspirational as well, right. Instead of beating the old, tired drama of our grievances through tropes right, tired tropes and stereotypes, we're creating new paradigms by telling aspirational stories. I totally agree. But I also would offer this like we do internalize these images as destiny.

Speaker 1 50:08

And in my book and, I think, on the podcast, I've talked about how, literally at 11, I went to the Burbank Public Library and thought I didn't beat myself up when I figured out I was gay. I was like, wow, this is the funnest thing since sliced bread. Talk about dirty magazines, right, I was really enjoying myself behind closed doors. But I didn't. I did go. Hmm, I guess in the back of my mind I did hear it's bad. I mean, we used to say fag and gay, right, but I didn't really, it was just a word. But I do remember thinking, oh, I think it's bad, according to God. So I went to my hippie Bible it was called the Way and of course, no cross references to gay or homosexuality. God forbid you speak the word. So I went to, for whatever reason went to the Burbank Public Library and researched my condition. And there was two cards in the Dewey Decimal System and one was a very Freudian book called Preventing Homosexuality called Preventing.

Speaker 1 51:06

Homosexuality. Very successful attempt, no doubt. Well, homosexuality was still on the books as a mental disorder, according to the APA, or that year, literally, that I went through puberty, it was taken off, but of course these were still on the shelf. But anyway, you know, all very Freudian, all gay boys play with dolls, overbearing mother, distant father. And of course, because of the power of suggestion and universality, some of it rang true, but 99% of it my bullshit detector was pretty honed. And then it ends saying well, and gay men don't do well with aging, they start cruising dark alleys to procure and then they die alone. It wasn't AIDS yet, right, but it, but it was.

Speaker 1 51:48

Oh, it's a sad life and that's what I love about. Um, all of us strangers. Have you seen that yet? No, anyway, I hope you're still with me a little bit. But beautiful line in which he meets his parents at his age and he actually lost him in a car accident. So he has this fantasy where he meets his parents now and he comes out to them. It's really beautiful and healing. But he comes out to them and of course, because she died years previous, she's still in that mindset and she said oh well, sweetheart, all the things we've heard like it's I accept you, but it's all the things society would subject you to, right, and it is a sad life. And he goes. No, mom, we don't say that anymore. I loved that. Nope, it's not a sad life. So all I was going to say is, when you see all those films you mentioned where, yeah, being gay is equated with HIV or AIDS and that was understandable for a few decades, totally understandable, not to say otherwise Right but I have fulfilled that cultural narrative.

Speaker 1 52:47

I would just say how ironic right that I read that book in the Burbank Public Library at 11, was very well aware. So I spent my entire adult life writing my own story and still, right, Something got in.

Speaker 3 53:10

It's powerful. It's powerful stuff, powerful stuff. Right, the stories we internalize, yeah, and how do I put this? So, like, so, if, if my story was that, um, I, I had a dirty magazine under my bed and my mom found it and it was a struggle of acceptance and it's absurd and it was funny, but yet it was, it was still heartbreaking and and it took a long time to get to the other side of that, to somehow even have a conversation about, oh, I, you know the word gay can come out over dinner, somehow.

Speaker 1 53:42

It's not stop time you know, you don't hear the silverware clanking right so that was the story until a certain point.

Speaker 3 53:53

But then there's the now story. In my 50s I have a partner for 14 years. You know I'm telling different story. I'm allowed to have more than one story in my lifetime. Beautiful yeah.

Speaker 1 54:08

Well, it's always evolving right, but you actively reframe it, or would you identify that way, like you've chosen to reframe certain narratives at different times?

Speaker 3 54:17

Mm-hmm and I can understand what happened with a little time and distance and and apply it to the the current story. And you know, because even as a 50 something year old man, the lessons of 80s, adolescence and and bullying and aids there's like they're deep in me.

Speaker 1 54:40

They don't they have course well, and I want to invite Virginia in with her. You're awfully quiet in your corner, are you there?

Speaker 2 54:49

Yeah, I'm here Okay so with your background.

Speaker 1 54:52

Sorry, no, I've been bonding, and but I also know you do play the devil's advocate sometimes, and sometimes in the spirit of, like I said, aspirational storytelling. Uh, frankly, I'm too old for this shit. And I don't hold hands, I put it right. I don't bring people up to speed on being human, as we hinted at earlier. So I'm guessing, do you know what I mean? Some of the things you're tempted to interject would be right, the stuff that's not agenda, that's not against family values. So I'm going to let you speak in a minute. I really want to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 1 55:35

But I guess I'm thinking, like in terms of reframing our stories. There is a universality, right. Gay men tend to tell their coming out stories immediately. Now this is changing. I really admire the younger generations for not batting an eye. None of this is an issue for them, but I also. There's an envy there, right, and so you're seeing this play out, this imaginary generational divide. You see it in the reboot of Will and Grace. You see it in the reboot of Sex and the City. I saw it in Tales of the the city, if you remember that. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so they, they really present the younger generation as just having it all figured out and being on the cutting edge of um tolerance and diversity and inclusion and representation and it's that whole thing of like. Okay, but how did you inherit that luxury from the hard work of people like us? So you said a pivotal moment for you was seeing. What was the film that made it such a big impression on you.

Speaker 3 56:38

Harding.

Speaker 1 56:38

Glances.

Speaker 3 56:39

Exactly.

Speaker 1 56:39

And I haven't seen that, but this is a silly example. I very you know, when marriage quality came along, I just wasn't invested. It hadn't been on the menu for me, I'd written it off decades previous. And so of course I eventually came around and I'm like well, of course you can't extend certain rights and privileges to this subsection of a population but not another. Of course, in principle, I came around, but initially I surprised myself. I wasn't invested. That ship had sailed for me, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 57:12

And so the trope of like them being on the cutting edge and us being these dinosaurs who are stilted and repressed and having internalized all this negative messaging and maybe even self-loathing, I don't see that.

Speaker 1 57:23

The ones I mentioned, like Sex and the City Tales of the City, it gets tiresome to see this generation gap and this standoff where, yes, the older generation are portrayed as grumpy and actually backwards and not that progressive. But actually the younger generation inherited the luxury of being on the cutting edge because of the work and actually the patience of people who worked with the system. So I've used Serafina as an example. You see, during apartheid, the younger activist girl that hasn't been beaten or whipped or thrown in jail judging her mother for being complacent, but then, in a really beautiful scene, in the climax, she actually is imprisoned, beaten, whipped, all of that, and she goes home with a totally different view of her mother. So I'm just throwing a bunch of stuff out there and if you followed it, there is, I think, a false narrative going on that young people actually are more progressive. I think they inherited that luxury.

Speaker 2 58:40

I'll tackle this because I am a mom of three going into college in the early to mid 90s and seeing, you know, the shifts that we saw growing up compared to um, my oldest, who is at the tail end of the millennials, and then I have two gen zers, um, and so so with my oldest um, because, you know, social media wasn't, was, was just starting to grow, like YouTube had just come out and all that during that youth, I know, coming and talking to us, letting us know, was trans. Having those kind of conversations was a little bit hard in the fact that you know, there was, like this expected reaction, um to be kind of probably similar to like what, what we experienced. You know, I mean, I'm obviously not a gay man, but um.

Speaker 2 59:37

Now you tell us no, I tell you but you know what I'm saying, but like you know, like, like you know when Gen X, when you know you had those conversations with your parents, be it, whatever I mean, I mean like for me, um, and I know I've never mentioned this. So yeah, I have bisexuality, but I am married to a man. So I always say I chose, I chose my, my camp when I was married. You know cause I haven't been married for over 20 years.

Speaker 2 59:59

But anyways the point is, um, but you know, like I had like the religious, you know, because, like back then, you know, we called it the occult and you know all of that. And I remember my mom like I liked crystals, my mom's like you can't like that, that's devil worship. So I mean, obviously you know conversations we saw as a hard thing to have, and so I saw that with my oldest as well. You know where they expected that like knee jerk reaction, freak out kind of thing, and we didn't. We were just trying to understand, which you know, but we also didn't do what.

Speaker 2 1:00:27

Going back to what you're, I think you're kind of alluding to Dominic, the whole like how, you know, with this, like with Gen Z, there's kind of this attitude like you know, like, oh, my parents like threw this party and we're like oh, this is so great and you're so bright, you know, and and so like. For Dominique, I think, which is my oldest, I think the whole thing was is we didn't like freak out, but we also didn't like you know, let's go have a parade and celebrate, you know, you being brave as well.

Speaker 2 1:00:53

Because you know so. And how did Dominique experience that reception? I, you know, she's never really said, but I know that there was like kind of that, that awkwardness. It was kind of like well, you didn't have either one of these reactions. It's more like it was more of a process. You're like, well, okay, let's talk about this Like we love you Can, I can, I jump in real quick.

Speaker 1 1:01:17

I want to bounce this off of you and carry this further. Hang in there, jay. Um, I know that when I came out it was for a very specific reason. Everybody's situation is unique. But I had a lover all through college, uh, scott, they loved him, they accepted him. He came to every birthday, christmas, thanksgiving. It just wasn't talked about, right. So, to become an integral person and all those silly things that are so important in your twenties, right? I actually wanted to do some counseling work over the phone again to save, you know, to kind of shift, the teen suicide rate. I really came out just so. All areas of my life were integrated. I was out at work but not at home, you know, just silly. And I was.

Speaker 1 1:01:56

My sister was trying to set me up with vulnerable 20 something year old girls all the time. I was like just to end that I want to have these formal conversations, but it was a formality, I thought. But oh, wow, the Nile is not just a river in Egypt and those rose-colored glasses are pretty thick. I was shocked at. My mom really didn't know, or she hadn't allowed herself to process it. But my point is, none of it was for shock value, that is for sure, and none of it was negative attention seeking. But I will say this my thug and he wouldn't, he'd laugh at this my thug of an italian concrete worker father, blue collar father, that my, my friends are morbidly fascinated, oh my god, how did he handle it. And I was like like a saint, whereas my mom was more work at the one everybody thought would be a piece of cake. So, in other words, my dad, I had a little book called Now that you Know and I brought it with me out of what I thought there was never going to be a good time. So it was turmoil. My grandfather was on his deathbed but I thought, if I don't do it now, it'll never happen. Brought the book right to make sure I followed through. Thought, if I don't do it now, it'll never happen. Brought the book right To make sure I followed through. And he, I said, dad, I have something to talk to you about.

Speaker 1 1:03:08

And this is, as we're approaching the door and everybody else was still at the hospital, and he, he goes okay, and he really took a breath and he walks inside, feeds the dogs, pours both a glass of wine, holds his hands and says I'm all yours. I'm like where is my Italian thug of a father? What, like? What have you done with my father? But anyway, he was awesome. Like I won't I won't lay out the conversation, but he asked all the right questions. It's very satisfying, very fulfilling to me because he was processing it. He actually would say, yeah, I know when I first knew and we talked about that moment and just couldn't have been more satisfying. I know when I first knew and we talked about that moment, and just couldn't have been more satisfying.

Speaker 1 1:03:47

My mom did what maybe you guys did, which was said all the right things. She might as well have said we baked you a Bundt cake, you know. But I realized, oh, her mom is upstairs and the doors open, so it just wasn't the best of circumstances. But again, like you hinted at, it was a process for her because she hadn't allowed herself to look at it. So, over to her credit, over the next year she'd say, oh, I saw this little piece on Oprah about how the index finger is longer, blah, blah, all these correlations. And she let me know she was paying attention.

Speaker 1 1:04:19

And it was always, you know, over Thanksgiving, like pass the salt. And, by the way, like she let me know she was doing her homework over Thanksgiving like pass the salt. And, by the way, like she let me know she was doing her homework and it was more of a process with her. So I had no expectations of a party, you know, but I just felt like, okay, it was. The difference was clear. My dad had allowed himself to think about it. So the conversation was very rewarding. My mom said the right things but I knew she's not processing it because she's not even asking the logical questions like when did you know there's logical questions?

Speaker 2 1:04:49

yeah that makes sense oh, it totally makes sense and and that's, and and so not to get into the full conversation of what we had with with our oldest, but, um, definitely, you know, my spouse is I don't want to say super crazy conservative, but it's definitely more conservative. I'm more progressive. Um, as you know, it's all big nose of my life, but anyways, um so, so for my spouse it was more of those typical questions. It was very much that you know. Like you know, life's going to be because of where we live, cause we definitely live in a very conservative area, that's, a conservative rural community, you know because of the mormon thing, or just yeah yeah, yeah and and because yeah, and we're in st george, so it's you know, so it's very much that you know, okay, you know, is the church is.

Speaker 2 1:05:37

Are you sure you know life's going to be a hundred thousand times harder, like those were, like the kind of comments my, my spouse, was making, but it was more out of concern and safety um, yeah, but you know my opinion on that, right, yeah, yeah, yeah no, I know, but you know, that's that's.

Speaker 2 1:05:53

That's that's where the mentality was, and for me it was just because I was already in my studies and I actually had just done a paper on this exact topic, and so for me it was more processing, like okay and and. When I mean by processing and this is where I was going to go and you and Jay kind of hit on this a little bit. As a parent you know I can't speak to all parents, but the one thing that I have seen with this, with the younger generation on the parental side because I'm not the only one who has had a child come out saying that they are, you know, non-binary trans, you know gay, lesbian, whatever and they talk about this in in in counseling as well, for those who are studying to be counselors is there's kind of this process as a parent, because you're told this is who. You know you're pregnant, you know if you're a mom, you know parents, you're expecting this baby, you know most likely, you know the, you know the gender, the birth sex of your child, and then you know you have these like you guys talked about.

Speaker 2 1:07:02

You know your parents have these expectations and all these great things they want to happen for their kids. And then all of a sudden, their kids of course, which is totally. We all have done this. We're all adults. You know we gain our autonomy. We know we want to do what our aspirations are. You know what our heart tells us, who we love, and also your parents have to go, oh. And then when you add, when you add on the layer of now your child's, oh, and then when you add on the layer of now your child's, biologically is saying that's not who I am.

Speaker 2 1:07:29

There's kind of this mourning where you're like-.

Speaker 1 1:07:31

I was about to use that word, like the whole thing, is a mourning process.

Speaker 2 1:07:35

There is a mourning process to that. So it's like you know, here I raise this baby boy and now my baby boy is now going to be my daughter. So now I have to learn who this new person is. And not saying that in a negative way, it's just who's? This new person, this new identity of who my child is, as well as saying goodbye to the old one. And so it's some people handle that better than others, I mean.

Speaker 1 1:07:59

I want to backfill a little bit. A moment ago, you know, when I the idea, oh, it's going to be a hard life and that's really what we're worried about. I will say, of course, with trans individuals, the mis disproportionate amount of violence directed at the trans community is a very real thing and him being in law enforcement, like that, is a logical thing to say. I just do feel like in a lot of cases, as you know, say it's passing the buck. I mean, certain people in my family would say, well, I am not prejudiced, but I wouldn't want you entering into an interracial relationship just because of what society would put you through it's. It's that thing of like okay, so you're going to pass it on to the next generation and the next generation.

Speaker 2 1:08:39

But when your husband's case, I totally get it yeah, well, and I want to go back to like, back to like everything you and Jay have been talking about. You know, and that's the thing I just been listening because, again, you know, not a gay man, so there's a lot of conversation you guys are having that I just I haven't experienced. I've enjoyed listening to you guys.

Speaker 1 1:08:56

It's how open my eyes. We're just here to entertain, really no no, no, I'm just saying it helps.

Speaker 2 1:09:00

you know I have more empathy and and and a better, you know, understanding, listening to the two of you guys talking and I feel like maybe jay would want to lie down and work out his mommy issues.

Speaker 1 1:09:11

No, I'm kidding. You mentioned the healing that happened by telling your story in the film.

Speaker 2 1:09:15

Yeah, so yeah well, and what I want to say to that is you know it goes back to the whole, you know what is your, you know your perception, like what's the narrative you want to tell yourself, and it's rewriting that narrative and I think so it goes back to that oh yeah, so you had your own reframing, going on right all those narratives that you had to put to bed yeah, yeah, well, and that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 1:09:38

And even going back to what you're just saying about, you know, yes, there is definitely violence toward the trans community and, because of the work environment in which I was in and, of course, my spouse is in, you know that's an automatic reaction, but at the same time, you have to reframe it. You have to rechange that narrative like but who's? Who's the child that we've raised? Who is this adult that we have given these tools to to cope, deal with society on this new journey, on this new season in their life?

Speaker 1 1:10:10

So the best way you could support a trans child was to help them navigate all that.

Speaker 2 1:10:15

Correct and reframe, and reframe the way we're coming at it and I and I believe that's exactly what Jay's been doing with a lot of you know the storytelling within your movies. I know you've definitely been doing that, dominic. I know the storytelling within your movies. I know you've definitely been doing that, dominic. I mean that's the whole point of the show.

Speaker 1 1:10:30

I love it. Yeah, we've all got narratives that need to be framed, reframed, and it maybe it is a morning on all sides, jay, anything, yeah, I was just taking all of that in that information.

Speaker 3 1:10:41

That was great actually.

Speaker 1 1:10:44

Well, it's fascinating that you know. Your film seemed to be about your mother's process as well as the kids' process. And now Virginia, it didn't even click for me. Oh well, she does have a trans child. It's a similar process. So fascinating.

Speaker 3 1:10:58

Yeah, no, I'm as interested In the other party's experience. If I have this big announcement or if someone is going through something and feels the need to drop a bomb on them, there's a cause and effect. It's not just oh, I had this great thing, I got off my chest and now deal with it. I'm going to go, have a wonderful life now.

Speaker 3 1:11:24

It doesn't work that way. It's much more interesting to me, like, okay, now that I've said this, you know there's processing that needs to go on. What do you make of it and not? Are you okay with it and do you give me permission to do what I need to do? It's not that it's like respecting each other mutually, it's not a one-sided thing. You know, I respect the fact that it's going to take your time to process what I said and, you know, empathetically, go through that with them. I find that an interesting thing.

Speaker 1 1:11:59

You know, what comes to mind for me is this word acceptance. Right, you often hear that the parent doesn't accept that their child is gay, and I always think do you accept that the sky is blue? What does that mean? What does acceptance really mean? I think it means I'm going to disown you and you're not going to get your inheritance. It's always something like you know what I mean? I'm going to cut ties with you or you're not going to get your inheritance, but beyond that, do you need permission, do you need approval? Like we said, we're just asking for humanity, really, and just to accept that the sky is blue you know what word I I like even less than acceptance, tolerate, right, right.

Speaker 3 1:12:41

And uh, I think you know tina faye did the sarah Palin for a while. There, you know, I think there's this great scene where she was playing Sarah Palin and they were asking hey, do you accept gay people or do you tolerate gay people? I do tolerate them. I tolerate them as best I can. You know, like that's what it feels like when someone says tolerance to me like tolerance.

Speaker 2 1:13:10

It's kind of like that backhanded. You know, like I'm sorry you feel that way.

Speaker 1 1:13:15

Like a microaggression yeah.

Speaker 2 1:13:17

That's really what it comes across, as to me.

Speaker 1 1:13:18

I'm so sorry. You feel that I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry you're so sensitive.

Speaker 2 1:13:22

I just tolerate you, I understand it as a term.

Speaker 1 1:13:24

Right, I understand it as a term. Right, I understand it as a term and it's very applicable to history. But, yeah, maybe we need to change up the the terminology there. I do. I think most people say I don't wish to be tolerated, right?

Speaker 3 1:13:39

but yeah, who wants to be tolerated? I'm. I'm going to tolerate you until you leave the room. Thank you very much for coming. That's how.

Speaker 2 1:13:46

I feel yeah. I was going to say, but I definitely think, you know, going back to like what you kind of mentioned before, like with this younger generation, I think, because of technology and the fact that they have a platform where they can say things without Repercussions.

Speaker 1 1:14:04

Yeah, repercussions Without having their ass kicked in a street.

Speaker 2 1:14:07

Yeah, or being right in front of somebody so like, yes, you know, I know that there's the online bullying and stuff and people can comment if they have their comments, open um to things they say, but the point is is they're able to say, say it right then and there, without an automatic response back at them. And so I think that I think that empowers the children nowadays, um, the youth, to to be a little bit more, you know, upfront and and and come off more accepting. But to go back to um, so I have my middle child, um has has a, has a significant other and has just spent a lot of time with them and like hid it from us for a month because they were worried about our reaction. And this is my, this is my oldest of my two Gen Zers, and I thought that was so.

Speaker 2 1:14:54

It kind of goes back to what you're saying, you know. So there's kind of this attitude of, yes, I'm more free to live my life, but at the same time, there's still that inner. I want the acceptance of my parents and hope that they, you know, are going to be tolerated to use those words. But I mean, I think there's because those words are used that there is that fear still in the youth of Gen Z that they kind of hide, better, I think, than we did, where we, I think I think ours was more for the world to see of our fear. Um, where they hide it because they've got social media. So it's that.

Speaker 1 1:15:33

It sounds like you're saying a little bit that I mean that word politically correct. We can't even say that anymore, Right, but it's not woke to reveal that you have a cognitive dissonance over somebody's sexuality or gender identification. Is that what you're saying? It's just not something they voice because it's not in vogue.

Speaker 2 1:15:53

I don't know if that's it. It could be, I'm not sure, but I definitely think.

Speaker 1 1:15:57

Yeah, I've, I've heard that over the years like, oh well, they only did that for virtue signaling or they only did that because it's politically correct and like, yeah, I'll take whatever progress, whatever the motivation is, it's still progress.

Speaker 3 1:16:10

Yeah, everyone's still human being. Everyone's still a child who wants their parents to love them and accept it, like and say everything's okay. That's just innately human right. That doesn't go away just because we're more aware or evolved society. You want your parents love. That doesn't go away. Yeah, we're more aware or evolved society. You want your parents' love. That doesn't go away.

Speaker 2 1:16:29

Yeah, I think Jay said it perfectly. That's probably more of how I feel, and I'm sure the other part's there too.

Speaker 1 1:16:36

Yeah, my sister wants, because you do have still. I mean, that's the thing. It's easy to live in a bubble and say we've come so far, but you know I've had to say to some family members, yeah, but we don't live in Florida and nobody has a white hood in their closet and you know there are people being stoned in certain Muslim countries, are rounded up in Chechnya and right thrown in jail and there is a lot of work to be done, right, despite sticking our head in the sand. So when you hear you still do, what was I getting at? You still do have kids whose bags are packed on the porch, right, if their religious parents refuse to accept or tolerate their sexuality, it's still happening.

Speaker 1 1:17:17

And so, my sister, I did ask me point blank at one point because I have swam with the sharks my entire, not just adult life, my entire life. I have swam with the sharks my entire, not just adult life, my entire life. I've dealt with really right-wing Republicans and two, you know, in my immediate family I have a brother-in-law who's a minister or was, and a nephew who's a minister and I still have to let him know on the interwebs. I have eyeballs. I'm your uncle, I can see what you're posting. I'm still swimming with the sharks. I'm your uncle. I can see what you're posting. I'm still swimming with the sharks. So I think maybe that's why I'm viewed as complacent sometimes and not militant, because I choose to keep those people in my life. My sister at one point literally said why don't you just write them off, meaning certain family members? And my answer was because I love them.

Speaker 2 1:18:02

Yeah, it's never occurred to me to divorce anyone in my family because I love them and I don't think that makes you complacent, because exactly that it's it's it's a choice you've made because you want to have those relationships, and I think that's that's important for people to keep in mind too in their lives yeah, well, and I I guess the only frustration is that I don't get credit for it.

Speaker 1 1:18:26

You know I've talked. Really. You just don't get credit for observing other people's boundaries and comfort zones and you know, kind of educating them and holding their hand. And you do get a little tired of it, right, jane? Later in life. It gets a little tiresome, it's exhausting as they say Exhausting, absolutely Well, thanks for indulging this.

Speaker 1 1:18:47

I don't think any of this was a tangent, because it's so much about story and the stories we tell ourselves. But, jay, I've said this before in the interest of wrapping it up. I know we all have things to do. I hope there's a part b with you and we've thrown that offer out with a lot of guests. But truly I want to talk about the film industry and your business uh, your location scouting business and just talk film next time. Yeah, oh, thanks. Yeah, I hope you're open to that.

Speaker 1 1:19:15

But steer this one back on track toward a close, in terms of how LGBTQ stories have been told traditionally and we didn't really trace it 100% right but there are milestones that I think we would agree shifted public perception of what it is to be gay that have normalized over the years. What do you see as the future of LGBTQ stories? Do you think again that I'm just throwing out there that it may not exist anymore, like I never even thought of it your way, which is like actually people are watching them while doing their laundry and filing their nails and they're not outing themselves by going to the theater to see a gay themed film. So maybe there is no future for gay cinema or lgbtq own voices, that sort of thing. Uh, what do you see as the future of representation? I'll put it that way.

Speaker 3 1:20:08

Yeah, it seems like I'll just use the moonlight example as a, as a launching pad it seems like the future could be walks of life that you would never imagine as gay or lesbian or transgender. You know that, oh that that person or transgender? You know that, oh that that person or that walk of life actually exists in the world? Or maybe it's turning them into doppelgangers and superheroes and, you know, kind of turning them into a multiverse of LGBTQ, like making it more than what it is, making it more Inclusive.

Speaker 3 1:20:50

No, it's like an extreme form, like either it's turning it into a cartoon or really dissecting a person of color who's in a restrictive society breaking out and being brave. You know that we don't usually see. Maybe it's just those very specific stories instead of trying to be universal.

Speaker 1 1:21:13

Yeah, that's come a lot up a lot, hasn't it, virginia? The untold stories of the silenced, erased, invisible. But yeah, there's such, a, I think, diverse tapestry of little threads. Uh, and yeah, maybe I mean I've gotten some pushback, like from Anya. Remember, there is nothing universal, there's only right, unique, personal stories that come from subjective individuals. I'm more apt to say okay, but together they might speak some kind of truth, like a tapestry. But yeah, a few of our guests, especially in the literary realm, have been really all about the own voices and the individual experiences versus the universal.

Speaker 1 1:21:52

But you hinted at something that I want to ask you about, because my opinion is not always the most popular with the gay community, and I'm putting that mildly. I mean, I'm lucky my card has not been revoked, but there's a little irony. I'm not the most butch creature on the planet, but I will say, apparently I'm a non seen remember that term, non seen guy. Yeah, and in my writing I think, like you, I I hope to speak some universal truth about the human condition. It's not always going to be the usual suspects, right, that said my entire life and it's in the book. I just was waiting for a moment that the gay character was matter-of-factly gay. Where it wasn't contentious, it wasn't a plot point. Uh, and I, I think we're seeing that with many examples. But and I'll bring up a silly one, did you happen to see single all the way, single all the way, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:22:46

No, no, I saw the trailer.

Speaker 1 1:22:48

Uh.

Speaker 3 1:22:49

I did not see it.

Speaker 1 1:22:50

Okay, Well, it's got Luke McFarlane, if that's any motivation, but he was also in bros and it was neck and neck with bros. I think it came out very. Anyway, it is what it is. It's a silly Hallmark rom-com. It's very, very non-threatening but very feel good. I really enjoyed it. But I will say it may be the first time I ever saw not just a matter-of-factly gay character where the person's sexuality was not a plot point or it wasn't contentious Again, wasn't tragic or cautionary in any way, Actually was not predatory, but more than that, every character in it not only did not bat an eye that was a triple negative but they championed their love life, they wanted this person to succeed in the relationship, and so that did come up earlier. I feel like you know, half the battle is getting people to respect gay relationships and if there's no pitter patter of tiny feet or we're not overpopulating the planet, we tend to be dismissed as oh, that's not real love.

Speaker 3 1:23:48

Right.

Speaker 3 1:23:49

So anyway, so I do feel like oh, I appreciate that goal of just having a character who is telling a story, who happens to be gay. That is a goal of mine to create those characters. I wrote a pilot for a friend who it was called Love Thy Neighbor and it was about a straight guy and straight girl and them being neighbors and falling in love and the whole cat and mouse of all of that. And I made sure to insert a B story that had to do with a gay couple that lived down the hall who said hello every so often, invited them to dinner, and while the straight couple was going through all this mental gymnastics about how to get in each other's pants or have a relationship, the gay couple was just walking their dog and having dinner and, oh, we're going on a trip. And it's just like this simple normalization of that as a country you know well, tell me I I'll have to see it.

Speaker 1 1:24:55

But I feel like I often say I don't have a horse right horse in the race virginia so I could give a shit about the war between the sexes. It bores me right. When you see comedy, all about the dynamic, male, female dynamics, it's like yawn yeah it can be simpler, right, we know the plumbing.

Speaker 1 1:25:12

That alone makes it easier oh my goodness no, but guys, I've had straight friends say, oh my god, I wish I was gay because you can just hang out, not drink a beer and watch football. But within reason, they just think it would be less maintenance.

Speaker 3 1:25:32

It's nice to have a best that you can share clothes right. Wardrobe alone. I'll have a same sex marriage.

Speaker 1 1:25:40

Anyway. But yeah, I think we can wrap it up, but I just heard something in there that you and I might share. I get accused a little bit. I think we can wrap it up, but I just heard something in there that you and I might share. I get accused a little bit, I think, or maybe just in my mind, of just kind of wishing the non-entity would be an option. So when every character is eccentric or a novelty, or even affected, or is you know, the floristist or the caterer the non-threatening best friend? I'm sorry, I don't really identify with any of those because I'm not fabulous. I'm just not fabulous. So sure you are, don't undersell yourself. You know what I'm saying. So I think, um, the last of us was the closest thing to like an unexpected kind of not even butch but middle of the road character. That's not an eccentric novelty, and so I've been waiting for that my entire life and it's happening. But it's not the most popular opinion.

Speaker 1 1:26:35

And the way I'll ask this question is did you happen to see coming out colton? No, did not. Okay. Well, this is referred to in the movie bros. It's a really funny scene actually. They're very directly referencing coming out colton, which is, uh, I think an ex-football player who was on a date like the bachelor and then came out right, right in the scene. It's either the glad awards or just a fictional organization right to award uh icons in the gay community. And it's a very thinly disguised depiction of Colton Underwood and he says basically in his acceptance speech in the NFL I never thought I could come out.

Speaker 1 1:27:21

I had to suffer privately as a hot, ripped gay guy. Now that I'm out it feels great to be publicly hot. I adore him. He's very sweet, I mean like I know him right, he seems very sweet and he's fun to look at, all of that. But you know he got accused of just trying to get more media attention or keep his career afloat after the bachelor by shocking everybody with his coming out.

Speaker 1 1:27:48

But the real, I think backlash was like okay, but you're a passer, you have all the benefits of being right, an alpha male, not just a white, anglo-saxon, protestant male, but one with a lot of privilege. And you know what about the rest of us? So you hear that in the gay community quite a bit like we're not going to celebrate your coming out because you have the world at your feet and you know you could be a double minority or a triple minority, anyway. There was a lot of talk about that, but I feel like that actually is the undertold story, in my opinion, is what about the blue collar guy? That's a non-seen guy that isn't fabulous enough to be a novelty. Those are real stories too. Does any of that make sense?

Speaker 3 1:28:31

I wouldn't. I wouldn't mind seeing a movie about that. Like I've often flirted with the idea of writing within the gay community, um the subcultures, within the lgbtq, like, you have the working class blue collar guy who happens to be gay but isn't fab, isn't, you know, doing drag on the weekends, isn't doing some lurid activity after hours? He's just a guy. How does he fit into the whole tapestry? I think that'd be a fascinating story to tell with a lot of heart.

Speaker 1 1:29:07

Let's do it.

Speaker 3 1:29:08

All right done.

Speaker 2 1:29:10

Can.

Speaker 1 1:29:11

I jump on that really quick, please, all right.

Speaker 2 1:29:13

So, being a non-gay male and let's say to that I just, I no, but no I think this feeds to what you guys were just talking about I personally feel like stories that are definitely like that, that are, you know, more of that unseen, I find I like better because and Dominic, you are fabulous, but you're not one of the fabulous friends I have that does drag on the weekends, but, um, I do have those.

Speaker 2 1:29:46

And as much as I love those friends too, I find that having that care, that type of character, dynamic and shows constantly in my face I'm like can I?

Speaker 1 1:29:56

I'm like you, I'm like I would rather just have where it just seamlessly is just their love story you know in the show without it like screaming hey right, right, it's happening, it is happening and if you watched, uh, again, fellow travelers and all of us strangers you might see some of that, but I really just feel like I have to address it. So years ago, my straight, you know, same thing my brother basically is my dad, blue collar italian, italian thug, whatever. And in Burbank it's possible to come out of there pretty backwards even though it's next door to Hollywood. It's very provincial, I'm kind of kidding. He's grown up a lot. But I got him an interview, not a job, but I got him an interview at DreamWorks. So I was at Disney, he was at DreamWorks.

Speaker 1 1:30:43

There was a trans individual actually that I worked with that came out in the middle of a production meeting. She just showed up one day with a purse and wearing a dress and said all right, now you need to call me dot, dot, dot. We really hadn't seen that. This was late nineties, mid to late nineties. Anyway, my brother was for the first time encountering gay and it wasn't the artists, it was the production people at DreamWorks.

Speaker 1 1:31:06

And I remember having lunch with him and he literally goes oh, I don't know why they have to rub it in your face and I drew a breath, you know, and all my patients and I said well, tony, maybe it's possible that they don't want to be the butt of a joke, so they present themselves to make you more comfortable. It's not rubbing it in your face, it's just beating you to the punchline, if that makes sense. And I do think there's a lot of that going on, where you, uh, people feel they have to be fabulous to fulfill that gesture archetype that I may mentioned earlier. Just so everyone knows what category to put you in your novelty, and therefore you're non-threatening, I will tell you, you know how women, if they're assertive like a man're a bitch right. So if somebody knows I'm gay or perceives I'm gay, it is the same thing.

Speaker 1 1:31:49

You don't get away with anything because you're a bitchy queen, right, if you're an assertive man, just like a woman is a bitch. If they perceive you're gay, you're a bitchy queen. So it is a dance you have to do and it's tough. But anyway, on that note, I don't know, I guess I feel like there is a big conversation around what is make. It's like Martin Luther King versus Malcolm X, right? Do you work with the system at the risk of being viewed as complacent, or do you rub it in their face? And Billy Eichner, this is the direct difference between single, all the way, and bros. In promoting bros, eichner said absolutely I'm out to. It's kind of like baptism by fire. Throw them in the deep end right and show them the good, the bad and the ugly and all the types like we referred to earlier within the gay community. All the diversity, and it's awesome.

Speaker 1 1:32:42

I was really uncomfortable in glendale watching it, and then I love it. Now I came around I'm like why the fuck wait till later? Why wait till the next generation and the next one? So I say amen to all of it. But I think you're hinting at something I feel from time to time, which is, if you're alienating people rather than normalizing, you're not doing anyone a favor. Does that make a little bit of sense?

Speaker 1 1:33:07

Oh yeah, If it's off-putting to see certain images. You're actually reversing the progress.

Speaker 2 1:33:13

I think there's that delicate balance, and I think we're still all trying to find it.

Speaker 1 1:33:20

Jay, anything, anything, work with the system, rub it in their face. All of the above.

Speaker 3 1:33:25

I think it probably has to be all of the above, because it speaks to all the different walks of life. You know, not just within the gay community but, um, the straight community. You know, there are a lot of different languages being spoken, a lot of different and different frequencies of operating on the planet, so it almost like each form has a different conversation around it. Right, and you?

Speaker 1 1:33:51

reach people right.

Speaker 3 1:33:51

You have visual learners, auditorially learners, it's almost like it's a necessary evil to have um single all the way and bros that you're using as examples, because I did see bros and I think billy eichner's hilarious and intelligent and insightful and it was in your face, I know and I'm like oh, did you resist it at all?

Speaker 1 1:34:13

though? I kind of resisted it, and then I fucking love it now yeah I, I.

Speaker 3 1:34:18

That's.

Speaker 3 1:34:18

That's for next episode okay but nonetheless, um, I will say that the the example of. I mentioned drag queens a few times and I'm not saying it in a vilifying, diminished way, I'm actually saying it in a respectful way. It takes a lot of bravery to get up there and be a drag queen and be caustic, and it's an expression of self. This is the way of handling life and I respect it. It takes a lot of bravery to be a trans person, to be your authentic self, knowing that you're going to get that response from that coworker or that brother. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I don't have that bravery. I have some, but I don't have that.

Speaker 1 1:35:00

It's a different approach, but it's also survival based, isn't it Like, truly. My only contention is, you know, we tend to own and reappropriate some pretty derogatory stuff from the mainstream. So, like la communauté pédée in France it's still referred to as la communauté pédée, which refers to pederasty. Right here, gay is a kind of negative derogatory Victorian term, but we embrace it right and we turn it around, and so I love drag as a celebration of gender bending alone, like rethink your rigid norms and mores and even paradigms. You know we're good.

Speaker 3 1:35:39

Yeah, it serves a very valuable purpose for that Right.

Speaker 1 1:35:42

But it's funny. I really did have the thought the other day. I guess it was the bearded singer that won the Eurovision song contest, conchita Wurst, if you remember. Rise like a phoenix, that song she was, you know, in full drag with a beard. Do you know who I'm talking about?

Speaker 3 1:36:02

I heard about it, I didn't see it.

Speaker 1 1:36:03

Anyway, she's awesome. I saw her on Graham Norton. This is from like probably eight years ago now, but I rewatched an interview with her and somebody came out and said literally like tell me about the beard.

Speaker 3 1:36:19

You can't get past the visual Right right, it's jarring, it's very jarring.

Speaker 1 1:36:25

But I loved how she articulated it, because it was both. She didn't say I'm out to, like a lot of people I think had said, oh, it's a, you know, it's a shock value. It's definitely a strategy to stand out from the crowd, all those cynical things. And she didn't say it wasn't there to shock people. But she said this is just what I settled into as a stage presence for all those artistic reasons that it creates the cognitive dissonance and it unsettles people and it makes them rethink their presumptions. She articulated beautifully but she also said and this is who I am Like, this is how I choose to be my most authentic self and I.

Speaker 3 1:37:05

You can't argue with that, well, you can but you have to have a retort once the argument begins dare I say no, but again, bravery Like this is me, you know, deal with it, because I'm not trying to be shocking, I'm just trying to be authentic. That seems to be a big message, message for this yeah yeah, and beautiful.

Speaker 1 1:37:30

I do say amen to all of it. I will say in my 20s, drag queens smelled my fear. They would plant themselves in my lap and start twirling my hair because they smelled my fear and I do, you know. I didn't have self-loathing, but but of course I internalized my blue collar. I keep saying blue collar, italian upbringing, and I've come a long way.

Speaker 3 1:37:54

Oh, I think they spelled your fear, but they also liked your muscles.

Speaker 1 1:37:59

So who knows? But they were. Did you know what I mean? They were out to? I mean, women do that. That's kind of one role. Tell me, Virginia, tell me about this. But a lot of the women in my life are like, especially when men are socialized to be linear, logical, um, what's the other? Like analytical, intellectual, right, we're supposed to have our shit together? Were trying to knock me off right my linear path and just teach me life is about poetry and absurdity and beauty and right humor. I think women serve that function in society. If you look at traditional right socialization, what do you think of that?

Speaker 2 1:38:38

I think that's definitely a feministic. When I say I don't mean like feminism, I mean as in the feminine side yes, archetype side, but is there any truth to it, or is it just? Um, no, they are, they, it's, it's definitely more of the nurturing, the creative, that you know, more philosophical side. That is definitely what the feminine, um side of everybody is, um, as well as, like the masking you you know, it's obviously the protector, the provider. You know all of that. So I can't speak for for women on this one, because I am definitely more of the masculine.

Speaker 1 1:39:19

Well, I tend to parse between. I think it's silly when you go. This is a masculine behavior.

Speaker 2 1:39:23

This is a feminine behavior.

Speaker 1 1:39:25

Every time you say something definitive like that, you can see the exact quality in the other gender taking a different form. So I don't buy any of it, but I do like to, you know, analyze it and parse between oh, that's socialization, versus that archetype is actually rooted in something that is survival based. That's in our DNA. I do think it's fascinating. Why do you put the blue bow on one baby and the pink bow on another? What are we teaching them versus? Is there really a feminine drive that comes from a hormone? Or even in the DNA? What constitutes a male or a female in terms of genetics? So I think we all have it all.

Speaker 1 1:40:05

That's why I said I have a very low tolerance for the battle between the sexes. When you say oh, I will say women fill the role of holding families together, for good or bad. They are the keepers of our humanity, for good or bad. But every time I hear, oh, women are more nurturing, I'm like, no, I don't know about that. You know there's the Hera archetype, there's the one that eats her children. I forget her name. All of it exists. Men have, and you can call it the breadwinner stereotype or you can call it the protector archetype, if you want, but men are so nurturing. I've seen entire films about how men are actually blue valentine. Men are more romantic than women because women are socialized to be a gold digger right to provide for their children at all costs, and they may not be as romantic about love. You could make an argument for anything and find both qualities in both sexes let's say, yeah, we have the duality, we have both, I think.

Speaker 2 1:41:02

I think each personality of a person that's what I'm saying like for me, I lean more probably toward what would be considered the masculine personality versus the feminine.

Speaker 1 1:41:11

My husband in which way?

Speaker 2 1:41:13

I I am I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely more of an alpha personality type suck it up, buttercup. Yeah, I've actually, yes, I've actually said that. That's why don't make that comment to my children. Um, and my, my husband, is definitely more of the nurturer, is definitely more of the beta, more of the passive. Um, and when I say passive, I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean it's definitely more of the gatekeeper, of trying to keep everybody more grounded oh, like the not rock the boat.

Speaker 2 1:41:44

Yeah, yeah, moderator yeah, the moderator is definitely more of the moderator personality, so which is which would be considered? In most times we look at archetypes.

Speaker 1 1:41:54

As the feminist, you know mentality, so so he's more progressive than you. Let on, he might be conservative, yeah yeah, exactly so that's my point.

Speaker 2 1:42:03

I mean you just you never it was what to jay was saying I mean you just never know how many different layers there are to somebody until you really get to know them.

Speaker 1 1:42:12

Beautiful, yeah, and you know, emily Bronte wrote Wuthering Heights without really much life experience. So I think we have access to all those universal archetypes, and that includes the masculine and the feminine, the Hera and the Zeus. All right, jay, are you still?

Speaker 3 1:42:27

with us. I am, I'm taking it all in all right.

Speaker 1 1:42:31

So is there again, knowing we're going to do a part two and hopefully talk some shop, talk Hollywood a little bit. Yeah, anything you would want to impart on this conversation, like about, maybe, representation or the power of it seems like we settled into like the power of cinema to normalize, or you know, and on the other side of the agenda.

Speaker 3 1:42:53

Yeah, I, I, I don't believe in agendas. I know they exist. I. I I'm very happy to see more uh stories, not necessarily about lesbian and gay people and transgender people, but, like that, include them in the story of life. It is part and parcel of a bigger story. So you know, it's multiplying in representation and I think that's great and sometimes I feel like you know, I see myself in them and sometimes I don't.

Speaker 3 1:43:29

And you know, I guess that's the other half of the equation. I do get upset when I see too much of LGBT life represented in stereotypes.

Speaker 1 1:43:41

still, Like it's a box to be checked, almost right.

Speaker 3 1:43:45

Yeah, still, still Like it's a box to be checked, almost right, yeah, yeah, and so I think I think those things need to be kind of called out and made fun of for various reasons, just to say you know, hey, let's move on from that please and not feed into like what's comfortable just because you're uncomfortable. I think it's okay to be uncomfortable. Back to unnerving. I mean, I think we're uncomfortable to learn something, is it right? Well, sorry.

Speaker 1 1:44:09

Every week, virginia, we talk about crucibles right and crises as opportunities and cognitive dissonance, and that is one of the fun. Well, we never found we're able to define art or literary value or artistic integrity, but there's an argument to be made that it's actually meant to provoke, to unsettle, I think, is the word Jay used earlier to create cognitive dissonance, and that's what the catharsis is. If it's not an emotional catharsis, it's actually a reframing of your paradigms.

Speaker 3 1:44:40

So I think it's our responsibility to tell stories, to educate, in a way that maybe it's not obvious through all the stereotypes, kind of cut through the stereotypes and say, okay, yeah, that might be true in part, but actually this is going on and I just look forward to still having the opportunity to do that Beautiful.

Speaker 1 1:45:02

Yeah, me too. I'm glad to be actually, I'm glad to be a part of it, and I think it's one of the most important jobs out there. Yeah, me too, I'm glad to be, actually, I'm glad to be a part of it, and I think it's one of the most important jobs out there. Yeah, okay, well, thank you so much, jay, and next time we'll talk shop. We shall, I look forward to that. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much. All right, and to our listeners. Bye, virginia, bye, listeners. Remember, life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write our own story. See you next time.