The Courage to Speak Truth with True Crime Author Pepper Anne

What does it take to remain committed to uncovering the truth in the face of personal danger? Join us as Pepper Ann, a true crime author from Texas, shares her riveting journey. From death threats to computer hacking, Pepper Ann’s relentless pursuit for justice comes with harrowing experiences and invaluable lessons. Her collaboration with private investigators brings an authentic and detailed perspective to her stories, ensuring every narrative is meticulously crafted and profoundly impactful.
       
The conversation takes a profound turn as we explore the emotional complexities of investigative journalism. Hear Pepper Ann recount the chilling story of Bob, a family member entangled in a notorious jail escape, and the raw emotions of interviewing his victims. As we navigate these personal and gripping tales, we discuss the intricate balance between right and wrong decisions and the cathartic power of storytelling for both victims and investigators.
   
Guest Bio: Pepper Anne is a 7th-generation resident of Texas, where she and her family currently reside. She has diligently worked with private investigators, which helped flush her narratives with detailed excellence in her true crime books. She has protected her identity because there are people not too happy that she published her first book, The Notorious Texas Swindler, warning her to stop hacking her computer, but she refused to give up. Her life and her family's lives were even put in jeopardy. This only put more resolve into her to continue writing the truth of what happened. Pepper's goal is to bring the real story behind the stories we've all heard about. She is making sure that we hear all sides to the story to make our own decisions of right and wrong and justice.  While her ultimate focus is, and always

LOTS One-time Donation
Your donation, however big or small, will help us build our platform. Click Here to Donate!

Patreon
As a patron, you're joining a community of like-minded individuals passionate about the stories.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast, where life is story. I'm Dominic Domingo, your host, and I'd like to bring in Virginia Grenier, our co-host and producer, extraordinaire.

Speaker 2 0:25

Well, thank you, I'm glad to be here and I'm just going to do some of our real quick, I guess little promo at the beginning. So first we want to say that it's great to have our listeners with us today and we're excited about the course of our interview. But we just want to take a moment and thank you, all of our wonderful listeners and supporters, and your continued support, sharing our podcast to help us spread the transformative power of storytelling. If you enjoy our episodes, please consider rating and reviewing us on your favorite platforms and share the podcast with family and friends. Every bit of support helps us reach more hearts and minds. And then for more enriching conversations and insights, of course, always subscribe to us at Language of the Soul podcast on buzzsproutcom. You can, of course, follow us on social media and of course we are working to get our patron community up and going for updates and exclusive content. But your continued support helps us by bringing those important stories to life. So if you can find us on Apple podcasts, spotify, google podcasts, amazon music, I heart radio.

Speaker 1 1:34

Wow, that was good. Yes, you just rattled through all of them.

Speaker 2 1:38

Yeah, and any of the other ones. And if you'd like to support us further, of course obviously can consider joining us on Patreon and then any donation helps to support us further, of course, obviously consider joining us on Patreon and then any donation helps, because this is a labor of love.

Speaker 1 1:50

Awesome. Yeah, that's an understatement, it's definitely. Yeah, it feels great. It's definitely on a volunteer basis at this point, but it feels great. It's very much our contribution and it keeps us on the straight and narrow too, right, wasn't it? It's such a great reminder, like even this morning's episode. It's just inspiring. I think we learn from our guests every week.

Speaker 2 2:09

Yes, yes, and I've actually ran into a few people. I didn't mention this last time, but one's a colleague of mine. And then, of course, I've run into other people within my community from you know us sharing it out there on social media and stuff, and you know, spreading the word ourselves, and everybody has come back and has told me that has listened to an episode that they walk away going.

Speaker 2 2:34

I know that they weren't talking you weren't talking specifically to like my circumstance and like but I was able to listen to what you guys were saying with your guests, or you know, the two of you, you know, meeting you, nick and me venturing back and forth on like a thought or something, and they're like I could relate that to a circumstance in my life and that was so empowering.

Speaker 1 2:52

I love hearing that yeah.

Speaker 2 2:53

It was very powerful to hear I love that.

Speaker 1 2:55

Yeah, one hopes. You know, I do think storytelling is universal, as we were saying in the last episode. Right, it's universal by, or can be universal by, nature, and so I feel that way, I feel like it's all relatable and it's all universal. But sometimes you know, it's theoretical until you actually have the experience. But anyway, I do love hearing that.

Speaker 1 3:18

I remember the first time somebody I didn't know what was it Like, somebody that I didn't plug my book to or just found it and read it and it was a friend of mine and you know discovered it on their own, and that meant a lot to me, you know, and they actually liked it, which was icing on the cake. Anyway, thank you for putting that in and I guess without further ado, because we're very excited about today's guest. But, full transparency, we sometimes have two guests back to back, which is awesome. We ride momentum and or ride on fumes sometimes when it's too condensed, but it is inspiring, just it's a whirlwind. So, unfortunately, I didn't get to go as far down the rabbit hole as I normally would researching our second guest today. I joke like I do nothing short of stalking my guests and I watch pretty much everything that's ever been put on the interwebs, whether it's other podcasts, interviews or, you know, blog appearances or whatever any kind of coverage. I tend to find it which is ominous. But I just couldn't do that this time. So pretty much Virginia is going to man the interview because she had a little more time to check out Pepper Ann, which is today's guest. Yes and yeah, without further ado, I'm going to read her bio and then Pepper Ann, who's in the green room. When I finish, you can correct me on anything I might get wrong. That's how we roll here at Language of the Soul.

Speaker 1 4:41

Okay, pepper Ann is a seventh generation Texan, where she and her family currently reside. She's diligently worked with private investigators, which helped flush her narratives with detailed excellence in her true crime books. She's protected her identity because there are people not too happy that she published her first book, the Notorious Texas Swindler warning her to stop and hacking her computer. But she refused to give up. Her life and her family's lives were even put in jeopardy. It's only put more resolve into her to continue writing the truth of what happens. Pepper's goal is to bring the real story behind the stories we've all heard about. She's making sure that we hear all sides to the story so that we can make our own decisions of right and wrong and justice. While her ultimate focus is, and always will be, true crime, some stories are too hidden to bring to light, which is why Pepper's decided to also dabble in writing crime fiction, where stories are inspired by actual events. Welcome, pepper Ann.

Speaker 3 5:44

Thank you, thank you both so much for having me on your show today. I'm just excited to be here and, yes, you got my bio correct.

Speaker 1 5:52

Okay, all right.

Speaker 2 5:54

We're glad that we did and I'm excited to have you on here, because true crime is definitely one of those things that's close to my heart, being somebody that worked in public safety for a number of years and I just I've. And then, of course, being in clinical mental health, I really like forensic psychology, so I always like the reasons behind things. So when you, when you reached out to us and kind of was sharing, I was very excited. But I do have to say, and I was very excited but I do have to say, um to me, just in the research I've done, I thought it was amazing the perseverance, um that you've had.

Family Ties and Investigative Journalism

Speaker 2 6:31

But telling the truth, um, it's facing threats, uncovering, you know story, you know a story that has to do with your own family. To me that's just a testament to the power of resilience and determination, um, on all levels. To me that's just a testament to the power of resilience and determination on all levels. And then I love the fact too, when I was looking into the you know, and we'll touch on this, but you know you go into themes of justice and empathy and the complexities of human nature, which obviously resonate with everything to do with Bob Lynch and the story. As Dominic mentioned, you faced some threats through doing your own investigative work, gained about human nature during your research, while facing that complexity of people, basically, you know, trying to stop you.

Speaker 3 7:32

Well, matt, I'll share several things with you.

Speaker 3 7:37

When I was working on this project, when I was doing the research, I found a lot of people who believed in me and really supported me, and I want to put light on those individuals, first and foremost, because there were times when it became so dangerous what I was trying to expose that my family, you know the leg nuts were loosened on the V on some of our vehicles so these individuals were were trying to get me to stop, but my, my family, just kept pushing me forward and saying, no, you have to, you have to tell the story.

Speaker 3 8:12

So it's amazing when you find your passion and it's something that you end up finding out that you're really good at and the people that support you believe in you, and those are the people that I could not. I couldn't ask for a better group of people to support me and be around me. So human nature, as far as the good in people, I saw a lot of good. I saw a lot of bad, but I saw a lot of guys. I'm more good than I did bad. The more that I began to expose, I started to see the dangers and the people who are criminally minded and they would go to any link to protect themselves.

Speaker 2 8:56

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean it's so hard to in a situation like that because you know you have to look beyond that black and white kind of perspective too, because you know you're trying to tell a story and stuff, which is the other thing too, because you know, here we believe in the healing power of storytelling and you know, going into the experiences of the victims of the crimes that you know and I only got to skim your book, I didn't get to dig deep into it, but you know, and I only got to skim your book, I didn't get to dig deep into it, but to me that shows, you know, that you're not just there to share the story but you're also listening, which is so profound for that emotional, you know, trauma recovery.

Speaker 1 9:38

Or their catharsis right.

Speaker 2 9:39

Yeah, and their catharsis. So how does sharing their stories help those victims heal? And what impact did it have on you? What did it leave you with?

Speaker 3 9:59

Well, I was not there when all of all of the crimes happened. In other words, I did. I didn't know that Bob and I were related to each other we're cousins and I began to uncover everything. I was upset. I was upset at the idea that I was related to someone who would do the things that he did. And once I started interviewing the victims, I became very close to them and I saw a healing with them. In fact, the family members of.

Speaker 3 10:23

I write about a standoff, an eight-hour standoff at the very end of the book, and it was when Bob and another offender who had escaped the Grayson County Jail were holding a married couple hostage in their home for eight hours and Bob ended up working with the authorities to release the couple. And once I started interviewing this family and Vincent and Irma that was the name of the married couple they've since passed. But, um, when I started interviewing them, I saw a healing. In fact, their family even told me that they saw a healing with Vincent. I think he needed to talk to someone, um, he needed to be able to, to talk about the trauma and everything that happened.

Speaker 3 11:09

There was a healing for me as well, because I I learned that you know, we, we all, everyone has the chance to make right and wrong decisions. Chance to make right and wrong decisions, and Bob had made some bad decisions. But one of the best decisions he made was to release Vincent and Irma. And and Vincent and Irma were very they, they corresponded with Bob towards the very end of their lives and Vincent with him, the healing it. I can't talk about them as much as I'd like to because I tear up. I mean, they're family to me. But Vincent would always go into the details and he would tell me don't be so hard on Bob, don't be so hard on him, because he made the best decisions he could out of the circumstances that he was in. I have to jump in.

Speaker 1 12:05

I'm so sorry but, virginia, this is a good litmus test, because I don't know the story and I'm actually playing the part of the listener right now. I have no idea what the story is. Is it a spoiler for you to give us a synopsis of the book? I don't know, bob. I don't know what the crime was. I know nothing. Can we just run that down Like what the book was about? Yeah, yeah, I have absolutely no idea. I love everything you're talking. I do love everything you're talking about, but I kind of like what happened. What is the crime?

Speaker 3 12:39

I'm sorry, I probably should have started with that. Yeah, yeah. So actually the individual that I wrote the story is about as a family member and he it's a story of his life, so he was involved in the Grayson County five jail escape in Sherman.

Speaker 1 12:57

Which I should know. Is that the idea?

Speaker 3 12:59

Well, that's OK.

Speaker 1 13:01

I don't know.

Speaker 3 13:01

Sorry, that's OK, it's no worries. So I started with with that. It's the most his most recent crime. So he and four other offenders escaped the Grayson County jail in 2001. And that's what caught my interest about the story.

Speaker 3 13:17

But the more that I dug into Bob's life, the more I began to learn of others that he was involved with, who were corrupt, and I began to expose those individuals. He is known as a cattle wrestler. He has escaped jail twice. He married a woman who was involved in all types of she had sex scandals and money laundering and all of these different crimes, and so he got caught up even more into the crimes with this other group of individuals, like I said, who I'm exposing. And the very last part, when it all came down and he got in trouble for the cattle rustling, he was the only one that got in trouble for that and all the others are still out and about in play and they're still committing crimes today.

Speaker 3 14:13

But I interviewed individuals from when the Grayson County five, when they all escaped the jail and the victims, and I spoke with them in County five, when they all escaped the jail and the victims, and I spoke with them and I was. I tried to be as respectful to those individuals as I could, because they went through a lot, I mean, and so it was important to me when I got the story to put it in their words, and I, I think I did the best I got. I did the best I could. I think I, I think I did a really good job. But yeah, so it's. It's about a man who is notoriously known here in Texas for escaping jail twice and wrestling cattle and it's just. It's an amazing story and it's somebody I'm related to. So when did you?

Speaker 2 15:05

when did you find out that you're related to him? Cause I mean, obviously, you know you heard about his escape, you knew that he had done some really bad things out there, and so, how, how far into your you know investigative research, when you were like, oh yeah, you know, this is really interesting. You know, I want to be in true crime, I want to be, you know, investigating this particular story, because obviously I live around here and I've been hearing about this person that you're like, oh wow, I'm related to him.

Speaker 3 15:37

Actually, I'd never heard of the story until I was told I was related to him. He is a family member, he is a black sheep of the family and he was. I hate to say this, but he was the embarrassment. He was the one you don't talk about. You know, you have a family member, you don't. I hate to say it that way, but no one in the family ever really discussed it's because they didn't know the full story.

Speaker 3 16:00

And one day I heard some family members talking, Some of the family. They were looking online at ancestrycom trying to find out who we were related to and I found out about Bob, and he is still alive. He's serving 14 life sentences in prison here in Texas. And so once I heard the story, I started digging around and I found out about the Grayson County Five and that's that's how I found out about it. And I learned about it 14 years ago when I decided to take the project on. I didn't know about him until then and he didn't know about me either. We just we didn't know about the other one.

Speaker 2 16:41

OK, other one Okay, but so you got to learn more about him, probably through talking to those victims and kind of interviewing people and really just kind of I mean I, you can tell that their, their stories have touched you in a lot of ways. Do you feel like you've changed a lot from, from each individual you've encountered?

Speaker 3 17:02

I do Absolutely. Each individual you've encountered I do Absolutely. My heart goes out to these people, you know they wouldn't talk to anyone else about their story and they found out who I was, that I'm related to Bob, and they wanted to share their story with me. And I felt that it was important for me to write this book because I was telling all sides of the story, I was telling what happened from. I even had people who were criminals, who committed crimes alongside Bob. They reached out to me and they wanted to tell me their story as well.

Speaker 3 17:40

So I interviewed a lot of people, from victims to perpetrators, family friends, law enforcement, and I feel like I've grown so much. I feel like me writing the story was something that it was something that we all needed. I needed it, I needed to know that I could do this. I needed the confidence to know that I could tell the story, because it's my first book, you know. And the victims it was a healing for them.

Speaker 3 18:18

And then law enforcement you, when I was researching this, there was a magazine that had they'd wrote an article about the Grayson County Five when they escaped the jail and the person that wrote the article had called law enforcement Keystone cops because it was here in Texas and they were laughing and making fun of them, but they were not Keystone cops. I interviewed the individuals in law enforcement and when they found out that the inmates had escaped the jail, they were working around the clock to bring them in. And so it was. It was little articles like that that were written, that I wanted to, I wanted to put holes in, I wanted to show, hey, we need to show respect for these individuals in law enforcement. That was important to me.

Speaker 2 19:15

Because it was just.

Speaker 3 19:17

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 19:17

No, no, I was going to say no.

Speaker 2 19:19

I can hear that passion in you and I think you know that's one thing, cause I mean there's definitely that attitude. Um, sometimes and I know that dog always talks about you know the old tropes that we put on and stereotypes that we put on people like these expectations or just like what societal norms are that you know, we hear, we grow up hearing you know kind of thing, um, and and I kind of want to touch on that because I know, especially because you even talked about how there's people who you know were with Bob and stuff that committed crime and they reached out to you and wanted to tell their story. So I guess you know there's kind of this attitude out there that you know there's this perceived idea of how justice should be and that rehabilitation is kind of one of those things like oh yeah, but you got recidivism and so do people really change? So I'm just kind of curious, you know, hearing these stories, what's kind of your take on that perception of justice and rehabilitation in society and what you've witnessed?

Speaker 3 20:28

in society and what you've witnessed. I believe that rehabilitation is a huge thing. I do believe some people can change if they're willing to. They have to want to. Let me say this Bob got in trouble in the 80s with a DPS state trooper and he tried to get away from him and he couldn't.

Speaker 3 20:44

Someone in law enforcement, you don't expect that. And when everything came down, it all ended. There were some individuals who paid Bob's bonds and they paid his bonds and they would not get away from him. And these are the individuals I'm exposing. They're very dangerous and I've had other people who committed crimes with Bob or they knew Bob during the time and they said that these individuals would not let him go. The other criminals were even afraid of these people and it's all in the book. It's all in the book.

Speaker 3 21:35

I believe that. I believe that Bob, if there was a serious investigation done on these individuals who were involved in the crimes alongside him, if there had been a serious investigation, I believe that Bob would be able to maybe somewhat heal or be rehabilitated. Now, make no mistake about it, he is in prison and he should be in prison, but I believe for someone to be able to heal and to rehabilitate. I believe that they need to be able to move past, if I can say that without disrespectful, in a disrespectful manner, towards the victims. Um, I believe, in order for bob to heal, there has to be a serious investigation done on these other individuals, because they're still reaching out to him today.

Speaker 3 22:14

Um, statements were made to him, letters were written and I have them and I even put them in the book, I sourced them in the book of them telling him that they paid his bonds and once he gets out of prison because, bob, this is the second time to go to prison he violated his probation with, I'm sorry, parole, excuse me, violated his parole when he met, married a woman that these individuals had sent to him to marry, and they were all tangled up. But the first time he was in prison, he received letters from them and they were saying when you get out, you're going to be under our thumb, you owe us all this because we paid your bonds. And so I feel like if someone would have taken this seriously, then maybe he would be able to rehabilitate. I don't believe he could be back out in society. I don't think that he should be back out in society. There are some individuals who are incarcerated and they are rehabilitated and they deserve once they serve their time. They deserve to be out, yeah, but there's some that you know.

Speaker 2 23:23

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, and I think it's you know, I think it's powerful and inspiring that you know you want that truth to be exposed. You know, especially for societal change, and I know it's something we've we talk about. You know change and transformation a lot. So what steps are you taking to ensure that those who are still running for are being held accountable for their actions?

Speaker 3 23:52

I'm just trying to get the story out there. Yeah, I know, you know I'll be honest with you. I feel like if the story gets out and enough people read it, somebody will take interest in it and I'm hoping that they would maybe take it a step further. That's the only thing I know to do right now.

Speaker 2 24:03

Yeah, that makes sense and kind of thinking about, like the whole fact that you know you are, you know, seeking that truth. And so I feel like someone who's on a quest like that. Even though it's a quest for truth on this particular story and injustice that you're seeing in the world, I mean, I feel like it takes you to a deeper level of your own self-awareness. So have there been any personal, you know, evolutionary mirrors that you've seen, anything that you'd say that's been a transformative power to your creative process? Like, what have you learned about yourself through investigating and writing the story?

Speaker 3 24:46

Well, I I think that it's given me more confidence in knowing that I I can do hard things. You know, we all have hard and difficult things in our life and I've been through what my family has been through them also and I managed to hang in there and I kept going. I don't know that I would have been able to do all of these hard things if it had not been for this project. I mean, sometimes it's easier to walk away from something if it's difficult. A lot of people tell me, well, that's dangerous, I don't think I could have done it. But I hung in there and I think one of the reasons I did is because it has to do with family. I met a lot of people who I had to keep going to get their story out. So I see that I can do it. I can do it and I have a little more confidence, faith in myself, and I think that's something we all need.

Family Support and Overcoming Challenges

Speaker 2 25:44

Yeah, absolutely. I mean you know it sounds like your family and having their support during this journey is has been a big, you know highlight and what you've been overcoming with, especially with the challenges. So we had, we had somebody on a while back and I, dominic, I know you remember Johnny Tan and he always talked about the influence of like nurturing that family connection and I mean he has. He always talks about his like nine moms and they're all from different walks of life and they're just women who have had that influential role, so I know they. He always talked about like how that helps you kind of cope and work through things. So what have you been doing and as a family unit to cope with those threats and challenges you've been facing?

Speaker 3 26:29

I'm going to tell you. I have a saying, and I've always said it the whole time. I would say it to Bob and to anyone else If you don't want anyone to know what you're doing, you didn't have any business doing in the first place. If you don't want anyone to know what you're doing, you didn't have any business doing in the first place. Those words came back to me yesterday and today by my family. My mom had made this statement. She said if these people didn't want anyone to know what they were doing, they shouldn't have done it. And you've exposed them. You have to keep going. You don't stop.

Speaker 3 27:03

My family is amazing. We all support each other. We do the best we can. I have a loving family. I really do. And as far as how to deal with all of this, I think you just have to take it one day at a time. I think that's the only advice I could give anyone. I hope no one is ever in the situation I'm in, because it's been dangerous at times. Um, I I've. I've just been aware, and so is my family, of what's going on. Who's around us. I mean that's, that's the only answer that I have is you just have to. You just have to keep going. You have to be careful. I'm very fortunate that I have such wonderful people around me friends and family, even strangers. I would go into the grocery store. I'd have to rewrite. I had to rewrite this thing three different times because my work was deleted and someone would hear the story just a random stranger, and they'd say you have got to write this, you have a story to tell, yeah Well, and I would say you have got to write this.

Speaker 2 28:04

You have a story to tell. Yeah Well, and I would say it's like when you called Bob a black sheep of your family too. I mean, it's still a family member, it's still, I mean, obviously not like a legacy that you're going. Oh yes, let's all live up to be this person. But I think it's important to know our family history, to understand you know all legacies good history to. To understand you know all legacies, good, bad and different, um kind of what's your thought on that? I mean, because you are, you know, telling a story that is tied basically to your family's legacy. Maybe not, you know, always in a positive way, but there are lessons to pull away from it as well.

Speaker 3 28:45

Well, I, I guess maybe I'm I'm going on the side of being a little naive, but I I do believe everybody deserves at least a chance to change. Not everybody can, not everybody does. I've seen moments in Bob where he's he's made the wrong decisions and he knows he has. He's hurt people and his rearing it was not. He did not have a good rearing. Neither one of his parents stepped up. So I'm not, I'm not blaming them. I'm simply stating that sometimes we can't help our circumstances, but as we get older we can, we can make the right decisions. I think I'm always going to think that he might, that Bob might. He knows the difference between right and wrong, but maybe someday he may sit down and realize I shouldn't have done that it was wrong.

Speaker 3 29:47

My take on this is that you know we have to share whatever our family history is. We need to know about it. You know we ought to share it with people and just tell the story. Everybody has a story to tell. I mean they do. Some go down, everybody goes down different paths. Some go down the wrong path, some go down the right path, but everyone's story, I think, deserves to be told.

Speaker 2 30:12

Yeah, I believe that too. I really feel like when we and I think it helps bring us together because we realize that we're not as different from each other as we thought. I don't know if that's something that you've experienced, as you've been you know, when you're working on your book, when you've talked to people, that you started realizing that there was a lot of parallels or you know similarities to things in your life compared to their life. Did you ever walk away from anything where you, like had like this kind of a epiphany moment when talking to somebody that you're just like wow, I never thought about this before, but here it is in front of me.

Speaker 3 30:52

Yes, I did with Vincent. I'm telling you the Forresters that family has changed me so much for the better. They made me realize Vincent did. He made me realize that you have to step back and look at the whole picture. Sometimes you can't be so judgmental and I was. I was judgmental towards Bob. I would go visit him and I would. I would tell him at our visits you know, you knew better, you didn't have any business doing that You're at a lot of people and Vincent, I think because Bob helped get them out of the house Vincent viewed, viewed Bob differently, and so I learned from Vincent that you have to, you have to kind of look at all angles, you have to look at all sides, and I didn't do that before. I mean, I, you, you know, I'm going into prison, I'm interviewing someone I'm related to. They're hard and criminal and I'm being told by one of the victims you know, you really need to not be so hard on them, look at the whole picture. And so I think that was one of those moments for me.

Speaker 2 32:02

It's something that I'll always remember to just consider, consider what everyone's been through before you make an opinion about them, before you, you know no, that and that makes sense to me because I know, like for me especially like spending years in public safety, working as a victim advocate and stuff, you know, I definitely saw like the harsh realities of of basically the darker side of human nature at many times, but it was definitely something for me.

Speaker 2 32:33

I know to not get cynical, to not look at things in that light you know, like to realize, like when I'm driving down the street and someone cuts me off, instead of just having a knee jerk reaction to go, hmm, I wonder what made them feel like they needed to do that? You know what's going on in their life that they needed to cut me off and, you know, almost cause a car accident. You know what are they speeding off to what? And sometimes I think we forget to stop and do that um, to really look at each other and go you're a human being. You're not, um, the product of the circumstances of which you were raised in or have chosen to live your life as um. You know you, you, there's, there's more to you than what I'm physically seeing in front of me in this snapshot moment in time. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 33:29

It does. I couldn't agree with you more. I learned a lot from the people I interviewed. When I interviewed Sheriff Gary and some of the other deputies at Grayson County, one of the first things they asked me after everything they went through trying to find Bob and all the others they asked me considering me. I know they were considering my feelings how is Bob doing? How is Bob doing? I interviewed a lot of amazing people and this I don't know. I think writing this book has changed me so much for the better, because I view things differently. I consider, like you said, if someone runs a stop sign or they're cutting you off or whatever you know, instead of getting upset, you think maybe they have an emergency. What are they going through? And I experienced that exact same feeling researching and writing this book.

Speaker 2 34:20

Yeah, do you feel like your empathy has gotten deeper too, with humanity and trying to put yourself in their shoes more? Now that you're, I mean especially because I mean when you're doing investigative type writing and when you're telling stories that you know are a nonfiction? You know truth, reality versus you know when you're telling a story that's more symbolic because it's on a fictional or mythological level, you know, I think. I think it impacts you in a totally different way, even though it's similar, in the process of trying to process through it. So what would you say would be one of like something that you've noticed you're more empathetic toward, or that you you know, when you're just out doing something that you see differently, that you didn't before.

Speaker 3 35:14

Well, I think one of the things is probably, when I see someone in a rush or in a hurry, I stop and consider what are they going through? You know, do they? You know we, we don't, we don't stop, I didn't, I don't know, maybe others do. Um, if someone's in a rush, you know why are they cutting in front of me in the line. What's going on? You might step back, I know I have and think is there something? Is there something an emergency or something? You know, because people, people do things sometimes without reason, if, if you're in a hurry, there's an emergency or something.

Speaker 3 35:53

So I consider people, I consider, I step back and I'm I'm more watchful, I'm more considerate of people. Now this book has changed me as far as my thinking. Um, I'm not quick to to rush with my thoughts and opinions. I'm more observant of people. Um, I feel like I, I just feel like when, when someone, you, you don't know what, you don't know what someone's going through in their life and it's something, I think we all need to kind of step back and remember. You know, I try to do that more.

Speaker 2 36:32

Yeah, and I I totally hear you on that and I get that, I know obviously laws are different in every state too. So in Bob's circumstances I know you're saying he's serving quite a few different sentences. Um, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, based off what they did, you know corporal punishment, you know death penalty, being in the prison, you know, obviously, interviewing him but seeing the other inmates and the circumstances of what they're in, is there anything that's been enlightening in that aspect too, that's changed you, that's made you look at, kind of, the way we are in a societal environment of trying to, of course, keep people safe, at the same time, again, you know, making better choices. So people have that opportunity for change.

Speaker 3 37:35

Well, I think one of the things I've noticed, especially with TDC now keep in mind the guards and the wardens and even the board members. Everyone has been very kind and very professional with me because they know who I am, they know that I've been trying to work on this book and write it. So everyone, on both sides of the law, they've all been very kind to me. I have interviewed offenders who are incarcerated and they have been equally kind to me as well. Everyone's been really kind to me. I have interviewed offenders who are incarcerated and they have been equally kind to me as well. Everyone's been really kind to me. But there are some things that I've noticed with within the system. I don't believe that there's a fair treatment of some of the individuals. Of the individuals in TDC, it's not air conditioned, they don't have air conditioned units. Of the individuals in TDC, it's not air conditioned, they don't have air conditioned units. There are people that are, that are dying and everything from the heat. I'm bringing this up because I think we have to give these individuals. As far as the sentencing goes, every case is different. It's gray, it's not black or white. Every situation is different. It really is.

Speaker 3 38:43

As far as sentencing and this, that and the other. If we're going to give people a chance to rehabilitate, we have to provide them with that opportunity. We have to give them what they need, in other words, the classes, the proper classes that they need. They're just limited. They're limited to what they're allowed to do. As far as rehabilitating, um, I think that we have to be compassionate towards others. Um, going to prison, that's a punishment. We don't need to torture them once they're in there, right, um? So I, I'm telling you this. This story has opened my eyes in so many different ways. I see, I see individuals who've committed crimes and I'm empathetic towards them. I see the victims who were victimized. I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I try, I try to be more, I try to be kind and and um, I just there's. So there's so many different people in the world. We have to just look at their situations. You know what I mean.

Exploring Grey Areas in Justice

Speaker 2 39:59

Yeah, no, it's. It's definitely a very tight line to walk um, because that's the thing I mean, you have humanity on both sides of, of that skill and and, and it's so hard, you know, it's so easy to put on the blinders and to just draw a judgmental conclusion. I mean, I know it's something that that. Am I wrong, Nick? I mean we, we try and look at the fact that you know there's so many aspects to being a human, contributing to society to allow people the opportunity to transform and to and to find the catharsis and the healing within our circumstances, be it something that you know has been biologically, physiologically, you know, dealt upon us, or you know, just obviously, agency of others upon you as well, or our own, that you know it's easy to lose sight sometimes, and that's that's, you know, one reason why I wanted to bring you on, because here you are, you're writing, you know you, you wrote a story that talks about stuff that can be seen very black and white, but it's it's not that simple, it's not so black and white, there's so much gray and the reality is is everybody is, you know, plays a role, and, yes, there needs to be accountability, but at the same time, there also has to be that forgiveness, the grace and the allowance of healing for everybody involved, which is easier said than done.

Speaker 2 41:28

I think, you know, that's one of the things. I think we not that we can solve, that I wish we could, you know, all hold hands, sing Kumbaya and have world peace, but you know you can't. And so I'm just, I'm just curious what, what would be one of the most you know probably. I'm just curious what, what would be one of the most you know probably, and it's probably such a loaded question. I know we, we, we tend to ask pretty hard, deep questions, but it's just because you know we're trying to dig deep into um, I, I'm going to say the human psyche for me, but that's just because that's where my mind goes, nick, what would you say you would probably dig into Um?

Speaker 2 42:08

I know for him it's the catharsis, it's it's the transformative healing powers. So I just, I'm just curious, like, can you share a moment with us where, um, you, you felt that personal shift within you, along those lines, where you felt that, that, that change in you, that, um, I don't know, like I know I asked you about it and you know an aha moment, but where you know you're there, you're at the prison, and you you saw somebody and you realize, wow, you know this, this could have been my brother, or this could have been my father, or this. I mean, even though I know you're with Bob, you know to go see who is a cousin, but you know somebody else who is just not related to you, that you're like wow, you know something to think about.

Speaker 3 42:58

Yes, I can tell you exactly a moment when I realized what it was all about. Let me say, before I get to that point, I used to believe in the death penalty. I did. I used to think, okay, they did it, put them in there, that's it. I don't believe that way anymore. You know, that was a very ignorant way to think. I didn't know. I always thought if someone did something bad, that's it, that's wrong. There are a lot of people who believe that way.

Speaker 3 43:38

Once I took this project on, I went in and I started talking to individuals. There was one of the inmates who escaped the Grayson County J was at the same jail. He wasn't in prison because his charges were different when he escaped and um, so he didn't end up in jail. He didn't end up in prison, excuse me. The other four did, um, he did serve time, but then he kept bouncing back into the same jail. Okay, and um, the sheriff and all the others.

Speaker 3 44:07

When I was researching for the book, they said would you like to talk to him? You want to ask him about the escape? And I said sure. So I went in and again, everyone was wonderful with me, they were professional, and I went in and I sat down and I started asking him questions, just simple questions. And I had my recorder going, because I always record during my interviews, with the permission of the person that I'm talking to and I asked him I said what made you decide to do this? Why did you want to escape? And he broke down. He broke down in front of me. I shut my recorder off off, I could cry just thinking about it. And he said to me I can't make it in society. I never learned how to do that. He said I need to. I. He said I never received rehabilitation. He said when I'm out, um, I don't know how to function. And that was the minute I realized okay, we need some change here, we need to do something. And that's when I viewed everything completely different.

Speaker 2 45:16

I know and I can see that because I recently watched a show on Netflix and I cannot remember the name of the show right now off the top of my head, but, um, I know it was a camera. If it was an actual, I think it was a jail, I don't think it was actual prison um, where they took one of the cell blocks and they did an experiment. Um, and I'm really looking forward to the next season. But the idea was is, um, if the inmates did certain things, the idea was to give them back a privilege, and what was interesting watching the show for me at least on the clinical side of behavioralism and mental health, was when they would earn back a privilege, when they would earn back a privilege. So the first one was like, hey, we're not, we're not, you know, the guards are going to be outside the cell block versus inside. The doors are going to be open, you guys need you know work as, as a functioning community. And so, of course, they had to figure that out and a lot of them had been in there since they were kids and it was like completely retraining their brains to like, okay, I have to learn to trust the other people here with me in the cell block and it was. It was interesting to watch that dynamic, so very similar to what you're saying. You know, um, be in, in they were typically, I think they were. I think it was like they were locked up. Except for like one to two hours a day they were in their cells.

Speaker 2 46:46

And when you're treated I hate using this term, but if you're treated like an animal to me you're going to get animal behavior. Where if you treat someone like a human, you know you're going to get more of a human response. Outside of the fact, obviously there are psychosis, is that would you know? Outside of the fact, obviously there are psychoses. That would you know. That's brainwiring. But I'm just curious. So, like, let's go back to Bob I mean you talked about. You know he had, you know you weren't giving him an excuse for some of the choices he made. But do you feel if the family would have rallied around him more, maybe?

Speaker 2 47:21

gave him more support, maybe some of the decisions he made when you're doing your research, maybe he would have gone a different path. And you know, if he had a not saying not not to criticize your family by any means, I'm just saying you know. I mean we think as family members, I mean I know I think I do the best for my kids, I think I'm there for my nieces and nephews and you know, but I can't be there at all times and sometimes I've got my own blinders on because I'm worried about my own little world. So I'm just kind of curious did you ever see anything like that in your research, where you're like hey, you know, this is something for me to learn to be better when I'm with family and friends as well. That could have maybe been a benefit to him.

Speaker 3 48:06

Yes, yes, I do. Like I said, his rearing he did not have the best rearing at all. Neither one of his parents stepped up. His father is the one who actually kind of got him into the life of crime, introduced him to these people. His mother don't even get me started.

Speaker 3 48:26

I think when I go and visit Bob, I think that is why I'm probably hard on him, because I don't think he's ever had a woman. He's an adult and he knows the difference between right and wrong. I know that, but it's not going to stop me from telling him, you know, you know, if he was going to walk away from the life of crime, I feel like it would have been when he so he ended up in prison the first time because he violated his probation from the 80s and he had written letters and I have those letters. I had written them to family members and I use them in the book. I referenced them and he was asking for help because he was receiving threats by these individuals who paid his bonds. He couldn't get away from them and he was saying you know, he had turned the information into the DA to all these people and he just he wanted to get out of this life of crime and he wanted to make some changes.

Speaker 3 49:30

And then he met his then wife and they got married by proxy. If he had any chance of getting away from that lifestyle, I felt like it would have been then. Now I don't know if he would have got out of it completely, I don't know. But I know he was, was searching, he was trying to um, you don't really know. I mean, when you're dealing with someone who has the mentality of, you know, the mind of a criminal, you don't know. But these letters to home I could tell that he he wanted out of what he was involved in.

Speaker 2 50:04

He couldn't get out of them yeah, it sounds like he had, obviously from his father, that modeling behavior too, to which is so important, which is why I think it's so important for us, you know, as a society, to try and model the best of ourselves. Um, because we don't know who's watching and what we're teaching them through our actions, through what we say, what we do I mean, I fully believe in what we put out into the world is what we're going to receive back. You know, and it may not be I receive it back specifically myself, but it's going to affect me through my kids, through my friends, through my coworkers, through people that I just happen to be walking by on the street, you know, kind of kind of scenario. So, yeah, I mean, so I understand that and I and I get that. Nick, do you have anything that you want to add to that?

Exploring Rehabilitation and Redemption

Speaker 1 51:03

Well through. It's really powerful stuff. I'll just say that I don't know if I have a question, but it's powerful stuff. I mean a theme that I mean. Isn't it fascinating? I will say this you know how we say whenever we do two episodes back to back it's fascinating how themes from the morning session right recur in the afternoon session, right afternoon session. So I don't know if you noticed that, but we were talking about redemption, salvation, transformation and how that happens. It's not some crown in heaven that you get right. It's meant to happen during the spiritual journey. So this whole idea of rehabilitation, well, what does that look like? I forget the name of the movie Dead man Walking. Have you guys seen that?

Speaker 2 51:47

I have yes.

Speaker 1 51:48

Yeah it's about. Obviously they're very invested, I think the Nun right. Who was it? Susan?

Speaker 3 51:55

Sarandon, I don't think so.

Speaker 1 51:57

I believe so, yes, I just remember like ooh, that's a whole world. I'm not familiar with this idea of redeeming somebody within the prison walls and I know during my hospital stay they sent a chaplain and only later did I realize, oh, I really was in bad shape because they wanted me to get good with God real quick and so I don't know. I don't think much about rehabilitation, but I am. I guess some of my thoughts throughout were like there is no bad seed really. Throughout were like there is no bad seed really. So when you were hinting at what could have interrupted his path along the way, it's just love, right, it's. Yes, there are chemical imbalances. You could call that a bad seed and maybe some. But I would also say we enter our, as Rosalyn would say, right. So if we're all interconnected and it takes a village, we enter our, as Rosalyn would say right. So if we're all interconnected and it takes a village, like we've been hinting at, it could be, yeah, generations of trauma or a lack of parenting like we're hinting at, but somewhere along the way somebody dropped the ball and that kid did not get enough love. It's not a bad seat, so I do. I guess I'm walking away with the message that we are all interconnected. It does take a village, and not that any of the one did anything wrong, but it's cause and effect. So it's never too late to redeem oneself. I'm with you on that.

Speaker 1 53:15

And I do think the death sentence is not a deterrent. It's never proven right statistically to be a deterrent, so I don't know what the value of. But I relate to everything you guys said and I agree they don't have the life skills to make it in the real world. So many inmates find themselves magically locked behind bars because they don't have the coping skills, the life skills, the confidence as you hinted at, and so I think it's more than just a good job trainer how to interview well once you're out. It's counseling right, and it's spiritual counseling. Now that's going to take a huge overhaul. Right To get spiritual counseling in the prison systems. But I do like some of the things that are happening. Like you mentioned the documentary you saw. I love that. There's one about Shakespeare in the prison system. Have you seen that one, you guys?

Speaker 1 54:03

I have not seen that one Beautiful it's just let's do Shakespeare, and you see these thugs right, these full-on gang member thugs. Get up and do Shakespeare. It's really beautiful so more of that.

Speaker 2 54:17

I will say that.

Speaker 2 54:18

Well, I say, and talking about fur babies too, I mean, obviously there's that TV show, pitbulls and Pearl Ease, and I've only watched a few episodes of that. But you know, let's, let's go onto that and then back up a little bit. I mean, um, I know, pepper Ann, you've been working to expose, um, the individuals who have sent letters to Bob and have, you know, basically it sounds like, um, some of the people who have been incarcerated, you know kind of have like they have a foot on their throat because of these individuals who are on the outside. And it's kind of like that's the thing. If you think about it, you're going oh well, they're incarcerated, you know they're in prison, they're in jail, you know they've did this, did that, whatever, and so again it's that whole you know trope of. You are in the you know black and white jumpsuit with the bar, you know behind bars, and but they're a victim too, because you have these people who are trying to extort them, and that is a victimization in itself and people don't see it that way sometimes.

Speaker 3 55:24

You know I will say this um, it was important for me when I wrote the book to put the facts out there. I was not trying to and I'm not trying to sway anyone in one direction or the other, but I've had a lot of people tell me who've read the book. I was on Bob's side and then I was mad at him and I thought he was a victim. But then there were other victims and I think if you tell the story and if you put the facts in there, people will see that that for this specific story, that, um, just because someone's behind bars doesn't mean that they're they're not at some point in their life a victim. Right, I'm not trying to excuse what bob did. I don't want anyone to think that I no.

Speaker 1 56:07

But that's what Rosalyn, when she went into the inter-our idea right, and even when it comes to intergenerational trauma, she would talk about, and it's similar to rebuilding. There's a lot of words, right, redemption, atonement, repentance. That's how you redeem yourselves. But what does that look like? We don't take the time to say, it's not just going through the motion, so you get paroled feigning, right, feigning. What's the word? Remorse? It's actually true atonement, true repentance, and I think what that is is the way Rosalind described it, taking a meta view of the situation and even again, with intergenerational trauma. I had asked her specifically about reparations Do you believe certain groups deserve reparations? And she said, if they ask for it, if that's what would be healing for them, then, yes, taking responsibility.

Speaker 1 56:58

But what it really looks like is and we've talked a lot about compassion on this podcast too Compassion means, yeah, removing all those value judgments you mentioned earlier right, the ego value judgments and saying we've all been colonized, we've all you know what I mean had hits and misses in our upbringing, or even society has, I think, fallen short of in a lot of ways of raising us, as you know, children of God. And so if you can take that meta view and go look, yeah, we all have culpability in this mess we've created. It's a little easier to find your compassion and find the shared humanity and forgive. Sorry if I'm talking in general platitudes, but I mean, this is what I'm hearing, right, this is the theme we're talking about. What does redemption look like? I think it just takes acknowledging that we're all interconnected and that what I do does. There's the ripple effect. It just does have an effect.

Speaker 3 57:52

I was going to say that it is a ripple effect. Everything we do has a ripple effect and we don't know. And just like you know, you were saying, virginia, that we have to be more aware of what we're saying and doing, because we don't know who is seeing and listening, watching what we're doing.

Speaker 2 58:11

No, it's, it's true and, and we you know that's. That's one of the things like um. So there's obviously been studies done on it about operational conditioning, and I think that's kind of what we see within the prison system. Um, there was actually a study called the Stanford project and they recreated in the basement of the psychology department. I want to say this was like in this 70s ish. I may have the days wrong, I don't think it was quite the 80s um, but they uh had I can't remember how many, I think it was 24 students, 12, 12 were dressed up to be prison guards and they wore like glasses, sunglasses, so you couldn't see their eyes, so it made them basically kind of like robotic, non-human to the student, the 12 students who were considered the inmates in the makeshift jail, and because there was that sense of my gosh what word am I looking for? Were immunity, you know, because they had the sunglasses on, you know, so they had. It's kind of like how we are with computers now you know, you've, you're behind the screen.

Speaker 1 59:19

Therefore, you can let the darker parts of your psyche kind of manifest, or your more judgmental consciousness comes over we lose our interconnectivity and our humanity right and there's more isolation and you're not responsible for what you're contributing to the collective and I think the same thing happens, you know, going outside of the prison system, outside the jail system, when you're looking at crime in general it's.

Speaker 2 59:49

It's kind of that same thing. You know. It's why, you know, gangs give you, if you don't have a sense of family, they give you that sense of family, but it also gives you, um, that protective circle, safety and protection. Yeah, exactly so you kind of get into that model behavior. But that operational conditioning, because you're like I must do these to some of the victims as well. But there's definitely that whole. We're all looking for that pat on the back, be it monetary, be it emotional, whatever it is. We are wired for that approval, that reward system in many ways.

Speaker 3 1:00:50

Yeah, it does, it does. It makes perfect sense. You know, I think that and I can't speak for everyone because I don't know their situation, but just from the individuals I've spoken with who are incarcerated, I think they are looking for survival, they're trying to find how to survive in their environment where they're at. They never really were taught that and, like you said, then they're looking for recognition for what they've done for the good and they don't get it as much um I mean, you know, because it's prison.

Speaker 3 1:01:31

I mean, come on, you're not gonna find that right like you're thinking, you know, and compared to the real world. So I think that it's it's. It's sad. I think it's sad. I think that we as human beings can do better. Um, I just think we can. I think on the outside.

Speaker 2 1:01:53

We need to do better yes yeah, well, I was saying and pepper, and you just, you just hit on and don't just gonna laugh. But you're talking about you know, it's about survival of things. So it goes right to maslow's hierarchy of needs, those, those basic survival things, and you're going to laugh because we just talked about this in a past podcast.

Speaker 2 1:02:10

I'm like I don't want to get onto that. But you know, even though there's different theories of thoughts on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, currently the reality is is we do, you do need to have shelter, you do need food. We know this. Like, if you don't have food, you don't have water, you don't have shelter. Physically you are not going to survive.

Speaker 1 1:02:31

Self-actualization is a luxury if your base needs aren't met. So the last thing on a lot of people's mind is emotional maturity, spiritual evolution, like what I'm just trying to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. But what I've been hearing too a lot is you know, desperation makes people do crazy things. So we hope right, if your mama raised you right and you have morals and ethics, that that can last a lifetime Not necessarily so. At any point, if your needs aren't met, despair can kick in. Right, we hope you have a moral fiber, but I just that's more and more on my radar and I don't want to say too much. But disenfranchisement came to mind as well. When we're disenfranchised from the whole of humanity, from community, we don't have that gang or that church or that family that's inclusive. We feel disenfranchised, we feel isolated. There's no interconnectivity. That's when the fun begins right.

Speaker 2 1:03:39

I want to say that's probably where we see a lot of our own kind of breakdown to the norms of society and what we view as right and wrong at that point.

Speaker 1 1:03:48

Well, that's why I loved hearing that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, pepper Ann, but one of the programs was to give them responsibility to the collective, to the community. Of course that's the answer. Baby steps right, but we're all, we're more. I mean, even when it comes to just contentment, tranquility, inner peace, the answer is serving, whether that's one dog right, whether that's the love of your life, whether that's your grassroots community, friends and family. If you're not contributing to a collective, isolation is just the beginning of the end. So yeah, I think all of those things are interconnected and we've talked a lot about them today.

Speaker 1 1:04:30

But I guess part of me wants to say I feel like I'm biting my tongue on this one. Uh, again, we're. None of us are judging one another. It's just that compassion is taking a meta view. Seeing that we're all faulted, seeing that there is the ripple effect and it's alive and well. So, as a gay man, seeing that there is the ripple effect and it's alive and well, so, as a gay man, I'm the family member that nobody talks about. There you go. I have exhibited a lot of patience. I hear my sister talking to her husband about, oh, the weird kid in that family that they don't talk about. I'm sitting here going well, of course he's the gay one, but who knows, who knows? But there are family members we just don't talk about. That's called disenfranchisement, so somebody a long time ago should have started talking about him. I'll leave it at that. Enough of enough of the weird uncle that nobody talks about. That's how they become criminals, by the way.

Speaker 3 1:05:26

Way I couldn't agree with you more. When I found out about bob and I said we need to know the story. Um, once I started talking and I discovered the story, my family rallied around me and him and they said you're to tell the story. And they reached out.

Speaker 1 1:05:45

Yeah, I love, I love that yeah.

Speaker 3 1:05:47

But it's. It's a shame that that it didn't happen before now.

Redemption and Compassion

Speaker 1 1:05:56

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean we are not, we're trying not to blame people, but if he didn't get the parenting me and another word for it as the love he needed, then you know you can't take responsibility for that, but I don't think it's ever too late. That's what we're saying. Maybe redemption you know what I mean we all stand a chance at redeeming ourselves, whether it's on our deathbed or you know, to be paroled, who knows?

Speaker 1 1:06:17

I think sometimes, like you know, I have a family member that went to court-ordered AA and they say you have to be ready for it. You can't do it for your partner. You just have to either hit bottom and have that dark night of the soul and want it for yourself. Usually court ordered AA just doesn't work. But I also think the reason doesn't matter as long as you do the work on yourself. So I don't know, I think we're all just kind of saying maybe it's never too late to redeem yourself, and for sure the prison systems need to start instituting things like you know. I mean the small communities they're creating, having a responsibility to that small community, and that's how you gain the confidence to then survive in the real world once you're paroled.

Speaker 2 1:07:00

No, I totally agree with you and I think, no, I. I totally agree with you and and I think you know, um, sometimes you know that rock bottom for all of us is different. I mean some people it's just having a loved one, you know, or you know and I, when I say loved one, I don't mean it just has to be a family member, just somebody that you love and respect. You know saying hey, you know, stop that.

Speaker 2 1:07:23

Intervention, that intervention exactly, and then exactly that intervention, and I mean it could be. You know something simple, like you know, I, I'll just you know, I'll use a mother analogy, but you know, kids, basically you know, spill milk, you go batshit crazy on them and then, like your spouse turns to you like, did you really need to? Like you know, scream, I'm like a banshee oh, like holding you accountable yeah, so you know, hold you accountable, so yeah, so.

Speaker 2 1:07:44

Or or an actual intervention, as you know, like the tv show. Or you know, unfortunately, sometimes, like you said, you know, hold you accountable, so yeah, so. Or or an actual intervention, as you know, like the TV show. Or you know, unfortunately, sometimes, like you said, you know it has to be court ordered.

Speaker 1 1:07:58

Or you, unfortunately, you know, the cops show up and you're being handcuffed and you're getting your lovely, you know booking photo, no-transcript, and yeah, I guess it's different for everybody and unfortunately this is you know when you say that, what comes to mind for me is um, I've heard, cause I used to watch uh, the Dr Drew, I forget the name of it the rehab in Pasadena. It was a reality show with Dr Drew from a love line and it was really eyeopening and educational for me about how rehab works and I just had so much respect for those nurses right For just having a thick skin, but also compassion. It's like the salt of the earth. So I learned a lot by watching it.

Speaker 1 1:08:58

But you know, you hear that conventional wisdom that, yeah, you have to hit bottom, you have to want it for yourself and be ready. You can't do it for the courts, you can't do it for. But I also hold this idea that you know what if one person hangs in there and believes in you and doesn't give up on you and doesn't abandon you, that can mean everything right, even like when it comes to suicide. What if one person just championed you? And so I don't know. I hold both beliefs. So you're right, it looks different on different people.

Speaker 2 1:09:26

Yeah, no, and I think it takes both. I think you have to be one ready to receive it, and I think the other is, you know, hopefully there's somebody, yeah, there's somebody there willing to put their hand out and say let me be here for you to fall on.

Speaker 1 1:09:40

Right, Pepper Ann, do you feel like your novel? I mean, is this unrelated or do you feel like these themes? I know you said you wrote it without an outcome in mind, but you've also gotten feedback from people, so is this relevant? Does some of this come up for people like, hey, are we redeemable? Are there bad seeds? What went wrong in this equation?

Speaker 3 1:10:08

wrong in this equation. I feel this is very relevant. Yes, when. I I'll tell you an instance with Bob, and there are others that this happened with as well. There was at one of the visits I had told Bob. I said do not give them any problem. And I got it from the visit and the guards, they were just wonderful with me.

Speaker 3 1:10:23

One of the the guards said we don't ever have any problems with Bob and when he said that to me, I just I felt like I wanted to cry. I thought he, he is, um, if, if, given compassion, he's not. He's not the way that everyone views him all the time. There is a chance for redemption. But when Bob heard that and I thought, oh, I thought I was just going to melt into the floor. I looked at Bob and he had tears in his eyes. I probably shouldn't be sharing that, but I am. I believe that everyone deserves compassion and I think that there is a chance for change Now. Not everyone can change. They have to want to be ready to change. But I've seen this so much, um, I've seen it with the victims. I've seen, I mean, I'm just amazed that the victims are the ones who were trying to convince me, you know, hey, give this person a chance.

Speaker 1 1:11:22

I mean I've seen that a lot, where I sometimes I'll see somebody talk about forgiving somebody that murdered their family member and I'm like holy crap, that is beautiful. I don't know if I could do that, but I feel like you rise to the occasion, you know if you have. I don't know, I guess everybody's wired differently, but I think it's almost like the stakes are higher. So you have to forgive to survive, and so you find that within yourself. You know, but I wanted to ask a question. Shoot, I lost it. I guess the other thing that's coming to mind for me a little bit is did either of you ever see the movie the music box? Did I ask that? Yet the music box?

Speaker 2 1:12:07

they have not asked that yet, but I have seen it um was it jessica lang who is the lead in that of course you're gonna ask like who's?

Speaker 3 1:12:15

it okay, do you? I don't know, it's been a while do you?

Speaker 2 1:12:20

remember the premise virginia um, vaguely, because it's been a while and I've it's one of those things like I'd have to start seeing the opening of it. I'd be like, oh yeah, I remember now you know which is terrible to say Pepper Ann.

Speaker 1 1:12:33

you might be interested in it. Is it Pepper? Or should I be calling you by Pepper Ann?

Speaker 3 1:12:38

You can call me Pepper, Pepper, Ann, whatever you want. I'd pay you. You can call me whatever you want.

Family Legacy and Writing Responsibility

Speaker 1 1:12:48

Just not late for dinner, that's right. Well, anyway, I'll try to put it simply. It's. It's kind of like you somebody that wasn't aware of a family member's involvement in something until she was asked to defend. She was a lawyer and she was asked to defend her father for being a war criminal in world war II, and she found and I think it's based on a true story, but she finds out, of course, all the bad blood that's coursing through her veins, and so I often write about bad blood. Right, how do we cleanse ourselves of the sins of the father? Right, I write about that a lot. And so what did that feel like for you when you realized a family member was involved in some shady dealings? Right? And then did you cleanse yourself by writing the novel, or did you just slough that off immediately and go? You know that's not in my DNA. It doesn't reflect on me that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 1:13:38

I was angry when I found out everything that he'd done Owned up to it because it's family, and to me it did feel like a cleansing. Like I said, I felt like I healed too, even though I wasn't there when all of these events happened, didn't even know about them. To me it was, it was an acceptance, it was a okay. This happened. Now let's, let's deal with this head on. You can't deny your family tree. I mean, why would you do that? You know you have people you got.

Speaker 2 1:14:11

you gotta love them even if you don't like them, you gotta love them. No, that's, that's true. You know it's kind of like what I was talking about. You know, at the beginning it's it you're, you're telling your family's legacy good, bad or indifferent. And you know it's it, you're, you're telling your family's legacy good, bad or indifferent. And you know it's. It's easy to whitewash things, but the reality is, is we, you know it doesn't mean we have to like it, but we need to be cognizant, cognitively aware that those things are there that were not perfect. Our family isn't perfect.

Speaker 1 1:14:43

That's kind of with the intergenerational trauma, what I meant, like accountability is the beginning of atonement and redemption. I love Finding your Roots. Do you guys ever watch that?

Speaker 2 1:14:52

I have not.

Speaker 3 1:14:54

I haven't watched it. I've been stuck on doing research and writing. I'm probably the worst person.

Speaker 1 1:15:00

Well, it's called Finding your Roots and I think there's another one like who do you Think you Are is what it used to be called, and it's just about. You know, even before 23andMe or Ancestrycom, they had all the resources to look into your family tree on your behalf, and literally to the point of flying you to a little library in the UK to go through the microfiche, Like they had resources the normal person didn't have. Now I know Ancestrycom and whatever I just said. They do it for you. But it's a great documentary because you will literally and it's usually celebrities but they'll spring it on them like hey, gwyneth Paltrow, did you know your grandpa was a slave owner.

Speaker 3 1:15:41

You know, actually I did see something on television about Valerie Bertinelli and she was finding out about her past. I'm wondering if that might have been a little snippet of what I caught of that show.

Speaker 1 1:15:52

Yeah, it's really beautiful, because sometimes they feel really haunted by their family tree. And then Sammy Hagar was like, yeah, that's pretty much what I would have expected, and it wasn't slavery in that case. But it was like, uh, he was, his grandpa was a wife beater or something. He's like, yep, I kind of like when they just let it roll off, like okay, we're good it's just natural, yeah, so yeah, that's a tricky one.

Speaker 1 1:16:20

And then, if I could, since you invited me, on Virginia, I have been just fascinated throughout and I'm just listening and learning. But one thing that keeps going through my head too and then for our listeners, because we do have a lot of writers who do find their catharsis by speaking their truth or telling their story, which I know you relate to, and you're doing it against really great odds. So for the writers among us that do go out on a limb and tell our stories when sometimes it's not rewarded, right, I'm just going to quickly say in third grade I read something called Harriet the Spy. Did you guys, were you forced to read that?

Speaker 3 1:16:55

Yes. I wasn't forced. I loved it.

Speaker 1 1:16:59

Well, I just remember it stuck with me and I thought, ooh, that's the risk you take when you keep a journal. But then you could extend that to being, to being a writer you could hurt people. It's a lot of responsibility. It's like sort of a a sword that you wield, or good or evil, right, and you can definitely hurt people. So then you have the Tatum O'Neill's of the world writing umall books and you have Mommy Dearest and that's been on my mind too, because I'm watching Feud about, you know, joan and Bette Midler I mean Bette Davis, betty Davis and so people's entire legacy, right, can be destroyed by somebody writing a tell-all book.

Speaker 1 1:17:40

So I just know there's responsibility, even for us fiction writers, right, when you fabricate a character but you're drawing on life, is somebody out there going to see themselves in your character? This is something we all deal with. But also, I think most writers strive to tell the good and the bad and the ugly, and only then have you fully found your voice as a writer. This is, you know, we're all somewhere on this gamut, I think. So could you talk to that a little bit? You obviously took great risks to tell this story. You're very fortunate you got a lot of support from your family. Has there been backlash? Have you had to find strength in the face of that backlash? And then if you could tell the story about getting your book into all the libraries. I really loved that story.

Speaker 3 1:18:22

Well, I have had a lot of backlash. In fact, I'm still receiving it today. For me, it was important to be able to let me just say I have a literary attorney and I had that was one of the first individuals I had to get on board with me.

Speaker 1 1:18:40

I had to have an editor and a literary attorney In case of people that felt they were slandered, that sort of thing, or what footing would they have legally?

Speaker 3 1:18:46

well, I, I was going to be listing people's names and things that they had done and, uh, I needed to make sure that I was protected legally with my work. So I that that was the first step I took before even attempting to write anything, because I wanted to know what I was allowed to write and not write. Everything I've written is public information. People can find it or they can talk to people. So, um, I am receiving a lot of backlash from the people that I've exposed. They are attempting to reach out to me and I have to forward that to my my legal team. Uh, I have people who show up at events, um, trying to intimidate me. I'm talking book signings or programs or things such as that. I just have to be careful about how I do it. Um, anytime you write about someone and anytime you write about someone, you have to be careful what you say.

Speaker 3 1:19:47

You know, the reason it was important to me to put their names is because they've been protected for so long, and if we're going to tell the story and expose them, let's do it, and that was why I wanted to tell the story.

Speaker 1 1:20:05

I wanted to tell it the way it is. Yeah, beautiful, it's great for us to learn from, because, again, I think we all are somewhere, but the stakes are not nearly as high as yours. So I do know I've certain family members. Well, one family member found a story I wrote. It was, I think, very humorous. If you have a sense of humor about our family, it's, other people find it funny, but if you feel implicated, right, I'm the devil. So I have one aunt that kind of disowned me after she found one of my stories on Amazon and that was not fun, you know, but I did think if she had a slightly better sense of humor she would have received it like everybody else, but it wasn't. It was painful, and so I think a lot of us writers I mean I've now taken to going prefacing myself and going. All right, sister Tina, if you do read this, just know there's so much love in this story and get the message of the story without getting hung up on.

Speaker 1 1:21:01

Your version of events is different than mine. David Sedaris, every story he writes he risks alienating some new family member, but can't if you were all adults about it. Yes, you're going to perceive events through your lens. I'm going to write, experience them through mine and our recollections are going to be completely different. But isn't it? It's the intention that matters, I think, with loved ones, ones, if there's love in it, then have a sense of humor. Am I making any sense?

Speaker 3 1:21:30

you absolutely are and I want to say about that. That's why it was so important for me to write, uh, using the words of the people I spoke with and that you know, because I wanted, I wanted their, their view of the way everything played out to come in.

Speaker 1 1:21:46

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 1:21:47

To my writing, so my opinion is in there.

Speaker 1 1:21:51

Well, there's no way around that. The words you choose editorially are going to have a point of view. There's no way around it. But I like that you honor the facts as right as delivered by the source.

Speaker 2 1:22:03

Yeah, it gave them a voice, which is so important, you know, not just not just for yourself and you know, understanding the story and, of course, finding peace with this being part of your family history, but also for them to have that you know, healing catharsis, you know as well.

Speaker 1 1:22:21

Yeah, Tell the stories of the silenced and invisible right and those that don't have the luxury right Of telling their stories. Really beautiful, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:22:30

Well, I think it was important for me to do that in the way that I did it, because, you have to remember, you know I'm related to Bob and I didn't want people to think that I was defending him, because it was not. I just wanted to get the facts out there and I thought the only way to do that would be to include all those people you have. You have to do that. It's their story.

Speaker 2 1:22:52

No, and that's that's amazing and not an easy thing to do, and so you know it's. It's great that you saw that, you understood that and you were, you know, at peace with that, because you know a lot of people, again, you know like to hide stuff, I think. I think as a society, we're getting better about whitewashing things.

Speaker 1 1:23:13

We're realizing we have to face reality, um, no matter if it's directly, you know, I feel like it's been a sorry to interrupt you, but I feel like it's been a steady arc from like the eighties, when we started. You know, instead of sweeping things under the rug, we started actually putting them under a microscope on Oprah and Donahue and Jenny Jones. And so we started, you know, alcoholism, domestic abuse, even incest, like let's talk about this, about this and now maybe we've gone too far, because airing one's dirty laundry publicly is very rewarded right now, right Under the guise of hey, look at, I'm going to open my veins for you, but it's distasteful to some. I feel like we're going to find a balance when we can speak the truth about individuals and society and human nature without canceling people. Do you know what I?

Speaking Truth and Sharing Stories

Speaker 2 1:24:07

mean, yeah, I agree. Well, I kind of feel like that's what you know, what I think you've tried to attempt to do, pep Brown, by giving voices to those victims. So you're just like, yes, you're shining, you know for lack of a better term you know light into, like the dark corners of you know the story, but at the same time, you know you're not trying to overdo it. I guess is how, at least how I, I feel in in talking with you today. I mean, I don't if that makes sense. But, yeah, I agree with you, dominic, that yeah, sometimes we do overdo it and we do have to have that, have that balance. There's always that counterbalance to everything we do, right.

Speaker 1 1:24:47

Yeah, yeah, let's speak the truth with compassion, maybe, and then you don't have to cancel people or revise history and do that sort of wishful thinking version. I don't know if that made sense, but something in there I think you hinted that we're more willing to tell the truth nowadays, right, instead of wearing those blinders that we call denial, culturally. So that's why I went off on that tangent. Anyway, that's all I've got to say, virginia.

Speaker 2 1:25:16

Yeah, no, I'm glad you interjected because I know for a while you were listening and stuff.

Speaker 1 1:25:21

It's fascinating, and I was really just like, oh my God, now I relate to you, virginia, kind of in the wings, listening, because it's fascinating. And I was really just like, oh my God, I was low, I. I now I relate to you, Virginia, kind of in the wings, listening Cause it's addictive, and like, what could I possibly say? I'm glad I got to share some of the thoughts that went on my mind, but I was really focused on um, just because, like I said, I'm the disenfranchised one that nobody talks about. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I've just always been aware of the weird uncle, cause I'm like, yeah, I relate to that, no, you know, and uh, even if it's just around my sexuality, or you know my lovers that come to every Christmas Thanksgiving, but it's just not talked about.

Speaker 1 1:25:56

That is another version of being silenced. You're great as long as you're invisible and just don't tell us about. Or you know that whole thing. It's what you do in the bedroom, it's not who you are. And so I just often see, like, again with an in-law, like, hmm, why don't they talk about was he a cattle wrestler or a homosexual? Like which is it? So it's just very much on my radar. So I felt like I wanted to address that bad seed idea versus just not getting that love. And then I just kept hearing this theme of interconnectivity and what happens when we're disenfranchised, you know. And then the rehabilitation is related to that, the kind of rehabilitation we can improve in our prison systems. But anyway, I was fascinated. That's why I didn't jump in, I was just listening and learning. And then, when you invited me in Virginia, I was like okay, I do, I do After I figured.

Speaker 2 1:26:47

I figured you were thinking.

Speaker 1 1:26:49

Yeah, totally. I knew you were, but no, but the Harriet the spy thing was on my mind the whole time as well, because I know a lot of our listeners are writers. So I just kept thinking about the responsibility that comes with speaking your truth, and you took huge risks to do that. So I will just say, even though you were trying to do just the facts, ma'am, and kind of give a megaphone to the voices and tell their stories, it still took a lot of courage and it's very admirable.

Speaker 3 1:27:16

Thank you. Thank you, I do want to say this when I started uncovering everything and learning more about Bob and I was telling my family about it I'm talking about cousins and aunts and uncles and everyone they would ask questions and they said well, what did he do? They didn't have the clear picture and so I was able to tell them the story once they realized. Hey, you know, they knew that he was involved in criminal activity, but they didn't know the extent they didn't know. So I think that was important to me. That was when I realized that Bob even seemed to open up when he realized he had family he didn't know about, and for me that was that was a little bit of a healing. For me that was really huge. But thank you, I appreciate that compliment. And you asked about the libraries.

Speaker 1 1:28:09

Yeah, better late than never. Yes, we would love to hear that.

Speaker 3 1:28:14

So, so you know, I'm an indie author and, um, I have to promote my book any way I can, and so I I told my PA, Laura. I said, okay, we got to get this book out there. So I looked up every library in every state in the United States and I got their email and their phone numbers and the ones I could email, I did Ones I could call, I did you know, and I contacted them and I told them about my book, because they have a budget they're allowed to spend on books. And so I told them about my book and I wasn't giving them away because, you know, I didn't. You know, you could just, you know, you want to try to sell it, so you can, you know, get something back.

Speaker 3 1:29:03

And so I did. And I asked him and I got a lot of no's, but I got a lot of yeses. And because I did that, there was one night, I think, I emailed 50 libraries and the next morning Laura got up and said, oh, my God, what are you doing? You're contacting every library in the world and that's how I got my book out there.

Speaker 3 1:29:24

It was just, you know, hitting the pavement, libraries, and persistence, yeah, I mean it's important to me to get the story out there, and I wanted to do that, so I love it.

Speaker 1 1:29:37

Well, on that idea of getting the story out there. A minute ago, when you said some family members didn't know all the facts yeah, I thought well, that's why we don't talk about. Said some family members didn't know all the facts yeah, I thought, well, that's why we don't talk about those invisible family members is because we fill in those gaps with innuendo sometimes and the silence speaks more right than the truth. That's right. I think we project on those little hiccups like those gaps in in the information. So when you complete the picture, then nobody needs to speculate and either augment it or diminish it and minimize it if that makes sense well, that's why information, the facts, are so important.

Speaker 3 1:30:17

People assume things exactly that's. That's where we're. We're going wrong, we're going in a different direction. People need to, like I said, we need to just do better, do better folks, let's all do better.

Speaker 2 1:30:34

I think that's.

Speaker 1 1:30:35

It's a bumper sticker right, do better. Well, no, then it sounds like Melania Trump Be best, be best, but at least ours is proper English right. That's right, yeah, he best, but at least ours is proper English right.

Speaker 2 1:30:44

That's right, yeah Better, yeah Well. Is there anything that you'd like our listeners to know about you, your book, what you'd like to impart on them?

Speaker 3 1:31:06

Inspiring people who have stories to tell that. You know we're like I don't know if I can do this, but you know, look this, but look Pepper Ann's doing it, so maybe I can. One of the most important things I always tell people is it takes more than an author to write a book, and it does. I have a lot of people in my corner my PA, my editor, my literary attorney. Not everyone needs an attorney, because if you're not writing, if you're writing fiction, you probably don't need that. But just remember that you can do this.

Speaker 3 1:31:32

If you have a dream or a passion to write, you can do it. Just shove those thoughts out of your mind that you can't do it and just go for it. You know what's it going to hurt to see your, your dream come to life, you know, or maybe it'll open a door for something else. But if you're wanting to write, just remember have the right people in your corner, get those professionals on your team to help you. Um, cause it. It takes more than it takes more than an author to write a story. It really does Beautiful.

Speaker 2 1:32:06

That's true. Yeah, well, I don't really have anything else, unless you do, dominic.

Speaker 1 1:32:11

I think we're good. Thank you so much for sharing your story Very inspiring.

Speaker 2 1:32:15

Yes, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 1:32:17

Thank you. Thank you both for inviting me to be on the show. I really enjoyed it. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 1:32:23

All right, guys. Well, and for our listeners, remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay. Individually and collectively, we can write our own story. See you next time.