The Story of Interconnectivity with Author, Poet and Podcaster Evan McDermod

Join us as we sit down with Evan McDermod, a gifted poet and tarot reader, to uncover the profound impact of storytelling on personal and cultural growth. Evan, the host of the Fifth Dimension podcast, shares his journey of spiritual exploration and creative expression, offering insights on how reconnecting with our true selves can lead to an authentic and fulfilling life. We'll discuss the dualistic nature of love versus tyranny and the importance of aligning with compassion to navigate the challenges of our modern world.

 This episode takes a deep dive into the interconnectivity of all humanity, and just as importantly, mankind’s inextricable relationship with his ecosystem. It may well be that acknowledging and embracing that interconnectivity will  be the key our survival, in the face of very real existential threats. Enjoy a heartfelt conversation that promises to inspire transformation and a deeper understanding of our place in the world.
Gest BIO:
Evan McDermod is a poet, tarot reader, and the dynamic host of The Fifth Dimension. With a passion for spirituality and creativity, Evan’s work is dedicated to guiding individuals on a transformative journey of self-discovery. Through evocative poetry and insightful tarot readings, he helps others reconnect with their true selves and embark on their own hero's journey. Evan’s mission is to inspire personal growth and spiritual awakening, fostering a deeper understanding of one's purpose and potential. His holistic approach blends artistic expression with spiritual exploration, offering a unique pathway to self-realization and empowerment.

LOTS One-time Donation
Your donation, however big or small, will help us build our platform. Click Here to Donate!

Patreon
As a patron, you're joining a community of like-minded individuals passionate about the stories.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Inspiring Conversations With Evan McDermott

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast. I'm your host, Dominic Domingo.

Speaker 2 0:06

And I'm your co-host, Virginia Grenier.

Speaker 1 0:09

We'd like to invite you to sit back, relax and enjoy some inspiring conversation. Here at Language of the Soul, we know that life is story. Individually, we're the products of the stories we tell about ourselves. Culture is the amalgamation of the stories we weave about the human condition. Here's the thing. Individually and collectively, we can write our own story. Thanks for tuning in and joining in the march toward human potential the march toward human potential.

Speaker 2 0:46

Before we dive in, I encourage you to subscribe on Buzzsprout or join our Patreon community for exclusive content. Your ratings and reviews help us grow, so please take a moment to share the podcast with friends and family. Every bit of support helps us reach more hearts and minds. Let's get started.

Speaker 3 1:03

I think we need to trust in our own ripple effect, in the profound impact that it can have on the world. We're always going to be learning. We're always going to be growing. There's always going to be more work to do, and all that we can actually do is work to build the foundation that is built on love and built on compassion and built on listening to one another.

Speaker 1 1:28

Evan McDermott is a poet, tarot reader and the dynamic host of the Fifth Dimension podcast. With a passion for spirituality and creativity, evan's work is dedicated to guiding individuals on a transformative journey of self-discovery. Through evocative poetry and insightful tarot readings, he helps others reconnect with their true selves and embark on their own hero's journey. Evan's mission is to inspire personal growth and spiritual awakening, fostering a deep understanding of one's purpose and potential. His holistic approach blends artistic expression with spiritual exploration, offering a unique pathway to self-realization and empowerment.

Speaker 1 2:08

You're speaking our language and then I'm going to include, if you don't mind, the intro to the Fifth Dimension. I thought it was. I mean, come on. The word story appears about five times in that intro. So again, we have clearly the same religion. So I am going to read that because I just love it so much. What is the truth in the stories we are told? We've been given a story of a world fueled by separation. We become separate from one another, separate from the earth, ultimately separate from the true nature of ourselves. It's time we learn the truth. It's time you rewrite your story. It's time to realign with who it is that you really are. This is the fifth dimension. Love that and we can dovetail off that too.

Speaker 1 2:55

It's really just something it's not to reduce your podcast to a talking point, but I would love to, you know, dive into that more.

Speaker 3 3:02

I love that I've never had anybody read out my intro to me and that gave me a little bit of goosebumps. I'm like, wow, that sounds good.

Speaker 1 3:10

Well, I only got cheesy at the very end.

Speaker 1 3:13

I loved it. That was beautiful. I have that. You know, I have that flavor in me. Okay, and then I'm going to do the same with your blurb Sorry for that word with your blurb, sorry for that word, your blurb, for to marshal love against tyranny. I think I got this off Amazon. How do we marshal love against tyranny? This collection of poetic reflections explores the classic concept of good versus evil through a modern lens of love versus tyranny. Each poem serves as a self reflective meditation to explore our own dualistic nature and how we choose to align with love or tyranny. All right, does that sound like you?

Speaker 3 3:50

I think you hit the nail on the head. I should say welcome.

Speaker 1 3:54

Evan.

Speaker 3 3:54

McDermott, thank you, thank you, I'm.

Speaker 1 3:57

Virginia, Sorry, of course, our producer extraordinaire Virginia.

Speaker 2 4:01

Yep always happy to be here and I'm glad to talk with you today, evan.

Speaker 3 4:05

Thank you. Thank you, it's truly a pleasure.

Speaker 1 4:07

Well, yeah, I've been wanting you on from day one. Virginia knows, yes, I really you're a big inspiration to me as a podcaster, a huge influence, and, yeah, I think we share a religion. I'm not going to, you know, make too many presumptions. We share a religion. I'm not gonna, you know, make too many presumptions, but I do think we're very like-minded in a lot of ways. So, yeah, yeah, you've absolutely informed my worldview and I guess that's this is going to be a little bit of a transition, like you do seem. I'm sure you've heard this before a little. Uh, why is for your years?

Speaker 3 4:43

I have heard that I am only 28, so oh, wow See, I didn't even know that.

Speaker 2 4:48

Yeah, neither did I, I was like oh yeah, so I'm going to definitely, you know, dub Talaq Dominic on that, because you know I'm going to go. You must have an old soul.

Speaker 1 4:57

Right, that's exactly the phrase that came to mind.

Speaker 3 5:06

You've heard that too, I'm sure right? Well, it's always reassuring to hear people say that, you know, because I don't view myself as anything too extraordinary and I just try and be very authentic in what I present and put out there. So, you know, it's beautiful to find like-minded people like yourselves and to be able to just kind of connect in this way.

Speaker 1 5:22

Well, I think you're doing good work in the world and, uh, contributing to right.

Speaker 1 5:26

At least we're contributing to the collective or to the conversation, and um, that's pretty much, I don't know, maybe all we can do I was gonna say that is all we could do for sure well, I anyway we'll get into that in a bit but I I don't mean it in a condescending way I really resonate with everything you're putting out into the universe and I would say just own it. You are an old soul, you are wise beyond your years, but I'm going to go way out on a limb and say I think you're a thought leader and a sage. Wow, thank you. Yeah, so on that front, I listened to an episode of your podcast recently. I've listened to many episodes but you know, in preparation for this one where I was coming up with my prompts, I did listen to a few recent ones and I wish I could remember the guest's name, but he I think the two of you were talking about. There can be wisdom. That's very theoretical, right, and it's solid. But it also it always has more resonance when there's the life experience to back it up, right up. So I love that about you. But the reason I brought up the fact that I see you as a thought leader, really on the cutting edge, is because I want to for the listeners, because I want to bring them up to speed. I may know more than even Virginia.

The Role of Storytelling in Culture

Speaker 1 6:39

One of your earliest episodes. You had a former professor. On one of your former professors. Is your background in sociology or anthropology cultural anthropology? Can you refresh me on that? What's your background?

Speaker 3 6:53

So I actually the professor I had on, I had him for a counseling class so I did a little bit of the social sciences and counseling but my, my major was actually in education. So you know, I have a teaching degree, I've studied, I had a double major in education and history. So I kind of come from the researching history background and very much kind of going through the stories of history. That's really where I got my, I would say, my drive to really learn and unpack stories. But you know, over the last couple years I've been very driven towards myth and very driven towards, uh, theology and anthropology in particular, you know so in psychology of course, and counseling.

Speaker 1 7:39

so uh, it's all it's. It's like a venn diagram, right? They all intersect, for sure they might. They might intersect in young oh, joseph campbell and young. Right well, the psychology aspects. Uh, I love that. Yep, do you see why he's the ideal guest virginia, oh, yes, absolutely yeah, you are a walking venn. Is that what is called venn diagram? That is a v, yeah.

Speaker 3 8:03

I've never been called a walking Venn diagram, but that I really liked that. Thank you.

Speaker 1 8:08

Yeah, Well, again, it's pretty much what we're all about here. Is well the function. Well, on that, here's our transition. I we're starting to ask a rote question straight out the gate of our guests, in the spirit of the podcast. So what would you say is the role of storytelling and culture? It's pretty broad, and the part B is has that role evolved over time or has it remained the same?

Speaker 3 8:32

Oh, what a beautiful question, because, I mean, that's a question I feel I've been on the quest to discover over the last several years myself. You know, I mean there's. I live out in South Dakota right now and I'm very uh getting to know a lot of uh natives in particular who live here, live right near a reservation, and a lot of people from the reservation come into town and live in town now, but I listen uh. So the lakota tribe is, right, probably the most prominent in the area that I am and you know the lakota tribe is one of the biggest tribes.

Speaker 1 9:04

Oh yeah, you said South Dakota, right.

Speaker 3 9:07

Yeah, in South Dakota, and I've spent time all over the country, so this isn't where I'm originally from. But one aspect that I've really appreciated about being here which myths and what they grew up learning about, whether it's stories about the gods and the astrological deities and, you know, kind of growing up, I didn't feel a deep connection to my own. I would say cultural myths and cultural roots, right, and I think that's a big part as we're evolving in Western culture. What are the stories that we really have as tradition? You know, as I think stories define tradition. It defines, uh, our day-to-day. It defines how we carry ourselves internally, first right, how we align ourselves, and so I think the stories that we end up telling ourselves are the stories that we are going to create in our reality and ultimately live by. So I I think it's really important to at least for me, this is what I've been attempting to do is I want to write my story.

Speaker 3 10:27

What is it that I truly like sets my heart on fire, right? What is it that makes us who we are? How is it that we connect? Where is it that we find common ground? What is it that we actually want to achieve? Where is it that we actually come from right. How can we recognize all the?

Speaker 3 10:46

This is such a unique and diverse world and we're so globally interconnected before right that I think there's a new global story that is emerging. So it's like, how do we want to write that story right? And I think that's kind of the era that we're in right now and the story itself has been one that is really fueled by. You know, there's's materialism and consumption and you know you could say all these things about Western culture that are sort of on the shadow side. But I do think there is a new story, you know, as I'm connecting with people and maybe this is just my own lens that I'm looking through, and so I'm finding others to connect in this way but you know there's a story of unity and connection and love that it kind of goes beyond just the well, what do you do for a living?

Speaker 3 11:31

What is well, you know all the standard ways that we're kind of taught to define ourselves by.

Speaker 1 11:38

So I have to jump in there. Have you ever read the Little Prince, Le Petit Prince? I have not. No, have you, Virginia the Little?

Speaker 2 11:45

Prince. It's a classic, yes, yes, and all my kids have too. I've shared it with them.

Speaker 1 11:49

Yeah, you might really enjoy that. It's Antoine Saint-Expiry, okay. Anyway, it's a children's classic, but it's really profound and I just made that connection. Basically it just talks and um, I just made that connection. Basically it just talks and again, it doesn't really read well in english, it it just lands differently in french because it's such a poetic language, you know, yeah, but uh, it's basically the, the kid is like why do the grand person, the, the adults, the grown-ups, why do they always ask you know, basically, what do you do?

Exploring Archetypes and Collective Connection

Speaker 1 12:20

How much you know? What do you do for a living, how much do you make? It's like, and uh, he says, why not? I wish I'm gonna totally botch it, but the whole book is about love and how right. Everything else is sort of I don't know a matrix, right or a, but it's just beautiful because it's from a child's perspective, which is maybe our essence, right, our core essence, and just questioning, like, there's a great scene the drinker, the boozer, the drunkard I drink because I'm ashamed, and I'm ashamed because I drink and it's just the vicious cycle that is mind and ego, right, and the path that intellect brings us down, whereas, oh, and the best quote from it, the most famous quote is uh, anything essential, something like all that is essential, can only be seen with the heart. I love that. Yeah, that the whole book kind of is variations on that theme.

Speaker 3 13:19

So sorry to interrupt you oh, no, no, please do I. I love hearing that I wrote that down so I can uh add that to my reading. I feel like I have a growing list of books that I have you know, I need to open. They're sitting on my shelf. I'm like, ah, I got so many that's.

Speaker 1 13:33

Every other word out of my mouth is like.

Speaker 3 13:35

I'll add that to my list okay, exactly oh, another book to read.

Speaker 3 13:39

I guess I'll just have to keep reading, you know, keep exploring yeah, this one's short and sweet oh, wonderful, wonderful, I'll be a nice read it in a nice afternoon, you know, sit out in the sun and read the book. So, and yeah, and I think what I was just saying is very much in align with what you're talking about, it's like can we find a, a, a higher calling in the form of our storytelling, but also in the same sense, you know, if we look back. I'm sort of just starting to get into Greek myth, for example. I'm really not familiar with a lot of the Greek mythological stories, but I'm starting to.

Speaker 3 14:15

I was reading deep on the story of Eros yesterday, right, and the Greek God of love and passion, and eventually he evolved into Cupid in the Roman mythology. And there's some differences over the years and cultural differences between the stories and passion. And you know, and eventually he evolved into cupid in the roman mythology, and I you know there's some differences over the years and cultural differences between the stories. But you know, it's like where can we find ourselves in these figures that were already constructed for us, right? And I think when we look back on stories and we look back on mythology and we look at back at what already was, really all those stories are just different archetypes of ideas and emotions and parts of things that live within ourself, right. So it's like, how can we uncover the archetypal wisdom that is ever present within us in a world that is so focused on the materialistic, physical body and not nurturing the soul, and not nurturing love and not prioritizing what it is that actually brings us fulfillment?

Speaker 3 15:14

Because why does the drunkard drink? Well, he feels ashamed. Well, why does he feel ashamed? Because he drinks. Well, where is that really stemming from? What could he replace that with right? It's not as simple with people who struggle with addiction or struggle with depression and these really deeply rooted issues. It's not as simple as just eliminating it.

Speaker 1 15:37

We actually need to feed a part of our soul that is suffering right and and really nourish ourselves in that way yeah, I mean I'm not going to make any huge broad statements here, but it's almost like all dysfunction can be traced back to disconnection from self right, from your core essence, from your authentic self.

Speaker 3 16:00

Yeah, absolutely, and that I, I'm the same way in that I, I I feel like early on in my, in my podcasting and my writing, I wanted to make like, well, this is what the world thinks, or this is what people think, and it's like. All right, I don't want to speak for everybody, I can really only speak for myself, but all of my dysfunction certainly stems from a disconnect from myself. Right?

Speaker 1 16:23

well, and also maybe, disconnection from the collective right. So, interconnectivity, when we isolate, we're actually it's, it's. It's not a good path, right, right it never ends.

Speaker 3 16:35

Well, right, there's a, there's a time and place to be the hermit and to go inward and seek solitude. But I think true joy and true meaning is shared. It's a shared nourishment, I guess.

Speaker 1 16:51

I was hinting that, as far as, like, the evolution of our noosphere, right, which is, in my opinion, as crucial as that of our biology, right, if we're going to keep adapting, right. And what's the other alternative? You adapt or die, right. If we're going to keep adapting, right, and what's the other alternative? You adapt or die, right. So if our noosphere has to continually evolve, it almost seems like if we're not contributing what we're called upon, right, our unique, authentic gifts back to the collective, it's a form of isolation. And then when you see people that actually destroy rather than create, it's usually because there's a little bit of I love this word solipsism. So the ultimate and detachment is sociopathy, right. And what's the other one? Narcissism? That's a really popular word right now, and so you see it all the time.

Speaker 1 17:39

And in a way I have a lot of faith in the dialectic, right that even the uncomfortable things that surface, the pendulum swings, the regressions, they have value. So that takes a lot of faith to see things that way. Right, I would pray things come to pass just as they are. But seemingly destructive forces that arise in our dialectic sometimes have value. So when you see somebody that's so isolated if that makes sense and so disconnected that mental illness sets in right. They're being used by the universe in a very different way than those who are connected to the collective and operating on a on love right. That make a little bit of sense yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 18:18

I mean it's giving us a glimpse into the shadow aspects of the psyche and ourselves, because we really have to be willing to put ourselves into anybody's shoes. You know and recognize that. You know they are. They are serving a a a beautiful role in a sense. Right, it's like the idea of what ram das used to talk about, where you know he's talking about the children starving in africa or the psychopath or sociopath and who's who's running a menace in our society.

Speaker 3 18:46

And you know there is a lot of people who are in the spotlight, who are divisive, and you know there's vitriol and hatred and you know there's very strong emotions and you know triggers that we all feel within ourselves when we witness it. But I think it can give us a glimpse into who it is that we are when we allow ourselves to be unchecked in that way and we do isolate and we do let ourselves really be run by the shadow. And we have to acknowledge the shadow if we're actually going to find a sense of wholeness. Not, I mean, none of us are perfect. In the certain circumstances I was likely the sociopath or I, you know I was. There's a great, uh tickna hot poem about that and uh, it's called, it's called. Call me by my true names and it's a very short, it's, it's.

Speaker 3 19:40

I don't know if you're familiar with it or not it?

Speaker 1 19:42

I think I've read that yeah.

Speaker 3 19:44

And it's you know he talks about. I am the girl who's being sold to the pirates off of the. You know, off whatever coast I am also the pirate right, yes, yes, yes, you know.

Speaker 1 19:54

so I love Thich Nhat Hanh. He's amazing.

Speaker 3 19:57

Truly one of the most influential thought leaders. For me personally, I've learned a lot from just you know, taking that mindful approach.

Speaker 1 20:07

But and I yeah, I think we just need to put ourselves in that perspective exactly right, we have, we all have the shadow and we have, yeah, anything humanity is capable, lives in us, right, capable of lives in us.

Speaker 1 20:21

But also, I think too, when you get in a real divisive. I was born in 19, speaking of tick, not on I was born in 1968, the height of vietnam, and literally just like this election I don't want to get too political, but just like this election cycle, the same exact phenomena happened where there was, you know, the democratic national convention. It was one of the most, uh, one of the low points in police brutality. So so many things happened that year martin luther king was assassinated, robert kennedy was assassinated and then the next year was the moon landing and woodstock, for god's sake, right. So sometimes, when our shadow surfaces right, or when things are really polarized or divisive, which is the word of the day, like you were hinting at, that's so that we can diagnose, right, if something is in shadow and we're sweeping it under the carpet, we don't get to write our own story right. So when forces rear their ugly heads, it's something to address.

Speaker 3 21:15

Right, absolutely. And you know that's something to speak on a personal level. Like a lot of my poetry, I try and sit with my own shadow. You know, sometimes I think poetic expression and creativity. You know, it's not all rainbows and butterflies puppy dogs you know right it's not all light and love.

Speaker 3 21:37

I think the true internal shift and awakening comes when you actually do sit in that pain, whether it's personal pain, or you're looking at the pain of the collective and you're, uh, attempting to diagnose it and you know, just be authentic and real about it. I think that's where the real magic starts to happen, and virginia.

Speaker 1 21:57

Do you remember the definition of compassion? It's come up on here a little bit uh, I don't remember well, I think it's the latin. It's the latin root. Yeah, I don't remember to sit with, to sit with the pain, yeah, don't fix it. You don't, you don't, you know, give advice, you just sit with the pain.

Speaker 2 22:15

That's true compassion yeah, and I was going to say you know, especially like listen to what you're saying, evan too is I had a professor when we were talking and we got into um in my psychology class we were talking about the shadow and what that really represented. What really, what I walked away from that class profoundly from my professor was, is when we're in the shadow mode, when we're in those really vulnerable moments as painful as it may feel at the time and it's hard to see, it's also where we're in the most teachable moments of our lives too, because when things are good, we're not, we're more reluctant to being taught versus when things are bad right, absolutely.

Speaker 3 22:55

I've learned more about bottoms than anyone else right.

Speaker 1 22:59

That's why I brought up like 1968, right in 1969, it's the whole um intro to language of the soul. My book is strife always signals change. So when you have back-to-back world events like that, right, the world is on fire in 1968, and then I, the way I put it is, like you know, the moon landing speaks to our man's march toward human potential. Right, and then woodstock is literally the quintessence of our interconnectivity. It's always been framed that way. So, yeah, strife signals change if we say that every week on here, right, and as far as the artistic expression part of it, don't you think? I mean, I've been coming up against this a little bit lately and my sister and I are a kind of writing club of two, and so how many times can we preface our work by saying it's a moment in time, it's an expression of pain, it's not the puppy dogs and the rainbows, but that's how you arrive at the policy for your life. Right Is by redeeming your world through expressing that pain sometimes. So I have to you, I, I.

Speaker 1 24:05

My journey lately is like fuck, everyone. Who's going to judge me for this, this expression, and it's usually people that feel indicted, by the way, but I have to not worry about the outcome, if that makes sense. Is my sister going to read it? Is my mom, you know, my dad or my mom going to read it? A great writer has to detach from the outcome and all of that. So I've just been allowing myself to express pain. When I was in therapy, my therapist would, one of the few times I was in therapy she would say can you just stay in one camp? Meaning I would quickly, if I talked about somebody that had betrayed me or that I felt had betrayed me, or you know, I always exonerated the perpetrator in the next breath because I'm so judicious, and she'd say just stay in one camp. So in my writing I try to do that and understand it as a momentary expression of pain. And then I think collectively that's how we do write our own story and we work through our Aristotle would call it our complexes.

Speaker 3 25:03

Absolutely. And you know I definitely resonate with that deeply because early on, especially in my poetry, I would. You know my mom listens to everything that I do and it is on listen. We'll probably listen to this podcast, right, you know I'll send it to her, hi, mom. But you know, so early on I'm hesitant to like say certain things or do certain things. It's like, well, I don't want her to know that I'm hurting so bad, or I don't want to put this out there, or I don't want to indict somebody or something or cause Humanity.

Speaker 2 25:34

Yeah right.

Speaker 3 25:36

Who am I to judge?

Speaker 3 25:37

It's like sort of my own.

Speaker 3 25:40

That's an internal battle I still have to recognize when it's present, right, but as long as it's coming from this is the authenticity of what I'm feeling and what the reality is. When you're expressing it authentically, it isn't so much an indictment, right? People take whatever they're going to want to take from our writing, from our creative expression, from our words, and as long as we are conscious in our well, first our own intent, but then backing that intent up with action and with expression, we really do have to detach from the outcome, and that can be even just in how we go through our day-to-day. In how we go through our day-to-day, and maybe sometimes the intent is good, but then the action, it falls on its face and we screw up or whatever it is, and that's when we take conscious ownership and accountability, right. So, and that's again also where the learning takes place. So there's no perfect formula to going about it except holding true to what it is that we're feeling and connecting with and attempting to articulate it in the best ways that we know how to right.

Reflections on Healing and Transformation

Speaker 3 26:51

Yeah, I think it's a good policy in life, just detaching from outcome oh, absolutely, or attempting to at least you know, we're always going to have a little bit of uh, well, I hope it goes this way, but if it goes Right, right, really, I I find myself fascinated by the concept of and you know I don't come from a religious background or I'm not a christian, I'm very, I would say, entering in and out of different theologies and religious concepts, because I find it fascinating. But I'm fascinated with the concept of, like a rapture or a judgment day, or the day where we are forced to take accountability of our actions.

Speaker 1 27:44

Right, and you know, one of my yeah, oh sorry, I like the word atone. We're all being called upon to make reparations to atone, and anyway I do. I know the poem you're hinting at. What's the name of it?

Speaker 3 27:58

well, there's, I mean there's a I. I did accounting on how many poems mention either the word judgment or mention the word rapture. I did a control F in my document and it was something like 10 to 12 poems mentioned that word itself. Or there's one that's about lovers in Armageddon and there's let's see, I got my book here there's Judgment Day.

Speaker 3 28:23

So that concept is something I hold myself to and I kind of try and hint at for other people, but not in the sense of like, well, god's going to come from the sky and you know demand all of us, you know cry and get down on our knees and be sorry, and this, this and that. But it's more of like. Ok, if today is my day of judgment or today is my day of atonement, as you said, am I willing to be accountable with myself? Am I willing to own up to? Okay, this is the shadows within me, this is where I've been, this is who I've been, this is what I've done and well, okay forever felt like home is one of the poems that makes reference to the rapture.

Speaker 1 29:02

Yeah, and the note that I took on that one was um, I mean, it just kind of occurred to me that is, a lot of traditions take the parables in the bible and kind of understand them as aspects of the human condition. It's not just not don't take it literally, take it as a parable, but it's like these are conditions that will recur in life. So if heaven is something you can create for yourself on a daily basis and it's a hades as a concept or hell as a concept, somewhere we go when we're in turmoil, before the clouds part, and we have that reckoning. I took that poem, I just wrote a note that, yeah, internal strife, conflict, demons will repeatedly present themselves and will be facing an apocalypse throughout life. Right, and it's something you have to emerge. You'll have your dark night of the soul and then you'll have your hopefully, redemption and transformation. It recurs. Is that the way you understand a rapture Absolutely, or an Armageddon?

Speaker 3 30:05

apocalypse Right. You articulated that, I think, better than I have ever been able to articulate in the way you just did.

Speaker 1 30:13

Well, I did it in a clinical way, but you did it in a poetic way in the piece Right.

Speaker 3 30:17

I just made a clinical Well, I've never strived to express the clinical, the way of expressing that in that sense, and that was really beautiful, because that is exactly where I would say I express myself poetically and it is to, you know, find a sense of understanding within it and then use it as a catalyst to grow. And you know, the last poem, or the last line in that poem, is about letting go Right. So, all right.

Speaker 3 30:50

In particular, I think for myself and I know I can speak to others with this it's like we tend to hold on to those demons, or we tend to hold on to the pain and the strife, because it's so familiar that we don't know who we're going to be without it, right? And so it can kind of become a lifelong Armageddon, like you speak, because it is defining how we go about in the world or how we walk through life. And if we're not willing to own it for what it is and face it and sit with it and be in it, then yeah, it is going to keep. That cycle is going to keep repeating, and you know we can't be surprised by that, and you know I, yeah, we have to bring our demons out into the light to transform them right, absolutely, and it's, it's.

Speaker 3 31:38

It's interesting because I don't. I've always asked this question and I I'd love to hear your take on this question too. Here here I am asking questions on your podcast but um, it's a conversation. And um, but I've always kind of sat with the concept of all right, when am I healing versus when am I healed? Is there ever a healed?

Speaker 1 32:01

We never. The answer is we never arrive.

Speaker 1 32:03

Right, right, and it's like at the same time virginia and it's kind of where the three of us are, like, distributed in age. Just, I think the gap between virginia and I is closer than the one between you and us. But uh, I mean, I, I didn't mean to, I was being a little facetious, but right, well, I would. I would say we don't arrive and we will come up against themes in our lives, maybe until we break them. But uh, I don't know that we do. You know what's recurring? Uh, well, we have peptide addictions, put it that way. Right.

Speaker 1 32:35

So if you have, if you internalize negative messaging in your childhood that you're a klutz, you're going to find a way to spill a drink at a party. Right, if you are codependent, you're going to find an alcoholic across the room at a party, no matter what. And then everybody would say, if they have a spiritual bone in their body, or sometimes even if not, they'll say why am I marrying the same type of person over and over again? It's kind of weird, but my boyfriends were always my mom and I'd say my first girlfriend was my mom too. So, right, you know, when you see it for the fifth time, you're like okay, on an epigenetic level, I'm meant to fix this so that I don't pass it on to my offspring, whatever it is. But anyway, I think themes will recur because of these peptide addictions, unless or until we break them. However you know I don't know that we do ever really break them we're gonna fuck up our kids no matter what. Sorry right.

Speaker 3 33:32

Well, they'll have their own growth and their own learning to do. You know, ideally they'll be better than us and grow in different ways that we weren't able to. And it's interesting because I've come to the same conclusion as you on that, where it's like I don't know if we ever true, there is no destination per se of I am healed, I am fully enlightened because then what's the point, then, what else is there to do? And it's we will come to understanding and acceptance of different aspects of our lives. And, and just, I think the real growth occurs when you recognize that alcoholic from across the bar, you make a different choice.

Speaker 1 34:10

You write a new story. Right, you write a story.

Speaker 3 34:14

That's exactly it, and you know the old scars are always going to be there, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 34:18

They tell a story themselves you know, let me ask you, I thought I detected a theme. Now, I didn't read the whole collection, no-transcript, but we've all been depressed enough to go. Have I done everything I'm here to do? And I did. I, I personally reached a point where I felt like I was done with my body, like spiritually. I felt very evolved not to brag, but I felt pretty evolved and I thought I'm kind of done with my body. But I ended up digging my heels in and saying no, there's more to do. And I felt in that really fueled my sense of purpose. And blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 35:22

Did I imagine that theme of like? When do I throw in the towel? It's on my mind because, you know, my mom just passed in January and it's not for anyone else to say like, oh no, she, she gave up on life or she was so disillusioned with the world. You know, death isn't always that. I do think it's a choice in a lot of cases to go. Right, virginia, it's a choice to go, but a spiritual choice it is.

Embracing Death and Legacy

Speaker 1 35:48

But it doesn't mean like, if you've matured or evolved spiritually to the point where you've done everything you're here to do, uh, go for it, check out. But I sometimes the reasons don't hold water. For me, you know, it's like because they weren't allowed to dot dot dot, or the circumstances and the card they were dealt didn't allow them to dot dot dot, or the circumstances and the card they were dealt didn't allow them to dot dot dot anyway. Did I imagine a theme of like do I throw in the towel and and frame it in the most virtuous way, think, oh I, I am completely evolved and maybe in the next life I'll have a new challenge, but I've done everything I'm here to do. Did I imagine, or do I work through this and decide to stay above ground?

Speaker 3 36:26

No, you, you hit the nail on the head. That's definitely a a conversation I've had with myself over the last several years and you know, I lost my dad probably almost 10 years ago now, right, and so the the theme of of death is something that comes up for me a lot. It's not something I run away from and you know I was there uh, it was me and my girlfriend at the time and he was in the icu, had lung cancer and he, when he decided to go, he was, he was ready, right, he went, and I was there to witness the trans transition between him being alive I mean in a very sedated and, you know, state, hardly present, and the way he was, you know, even a couple months before that, but he was still there and then you to witness the transition between life. And then there's the lifeless body and actually kind of experience. I mean it was a very moving experience to feel what that was like, because there is there's almost a profound sense of like when I look back on it.

Speaker 3 37:30

That moment, even though he was, he was dying, it was filled with so much love and it was filled with so much compassion. It was, it was like the most connection I had ever felt to him in any moment was when I sat there and said, okay, you could. You know, because I saw the heart rate monitor going down and you know he was somebody who is very much a fighter and you know he wanted to be there for me and my two brothers and had all this other stuff he wanted to do. I remember I said, okay, you, you can go. Now we're gonna be okay, we're gonna be all right, we're gonna make it and from and you know, did you out of complete curiosity, did you verbalize it or did you mentally?

Speaker 3 38:07

I did say that out loud, I did say that out loud. I was there kind of sitting by his bedside talking to him a little bit and you know I did get him to like kind of squeeze my hand and like. So I I knew he could hear me, like he, even though he was sedated, I knew he could actually hear me and connect, like, even if he couldn't say anything, uh, he was actually still somewhat there. So when I verbalized that, you know it wasn't three breaths later that he was, he transitioned on right and so ever since then, uh, actually very familiar.

Speaker 3 38:36

Ever witnessing death in itself really prevents you from being able to run away from the concept in the theme of it, and it's something I still very much explore within myself and my own poetry.

Speaker 3 38:50

And I'm I'm very much at the point where it's like, you know, I guess if I were to, if I were to pass away today I certainly don't have any intention of doing that, you know, but I would, I would be in acceptance of it in the sense where I'm doing all that I can each day to fulfill the drive and the purpose that I feel within myself while I'm gifted to be here. And I've had the points where I look at mankind and I look at the direction we're going in and I look at the struggles I've faced and I'm like, well, what, what really is the, the, the purpose, the point, like is there, am I, have I done all that I can? And I think, a lot of times our actual, it's difficult because a lot of times the, the difference that we make, it really can't be quantified, you know. So we can't always know what kind of kind of difference we're making. Well, I have.

Speaker 1 39:45

I have this theory that, like your legacy, is never what you would want it to be. It is the people you touched without knowing it and, right, it's the people that you made a difference with without even knowing it.

Speaker 3 39:58

Right, one hundred percent. And I thought about that very question Well, what would I want my legacy to be? And for me it it's very simple, it's. I would like somebody, when I pass away, to say oh evan, he had a good heart, you know he's, he's compassionate, he was kind, and so as long as I'm here, there's an opportunity to continue expanding upon that. And, you know, connect with more people, touch more people in that way, heart to heart, soul to soul, right, really, really explore. So you know, the idea of death, it's a certainty, it's an inevitability, so I'll embrace it when the day comes. I know it's, I anticipate being here for a very long time. But definitely in this book it's there's times in my own pain and my own challenges where you know, death would probably be the easier solution. Right, it would probably be the easier solution, but I don't like easy solutions. So that's not, that's not an option.

Speaker 1 41:01

Right. One of the pieces is literally titled If I Died Today, right, right yeah not an option, right.

Speaker 3 41:04

One of the pieces is literally titled if I died today, right, right, yeah, and that's well. I think we've been, we've been.

Speaker 1 41:08

We kind of got immediately off in the weeds. In my opinion, I have some like pre-written questions that I want to get back to. But because we went down this rabbit hole, I mean, is it logical to read either if I died today, or the other poem we made reference to which was frozen, wasn't it? Yeah, or was it forever felt like home?

Reflections on Life and Loss

Speaker 3 41:30

yeah, we mentioned like home, and that was about armageddon. Since we're on the topic of death, I'll read if I died tonight, um tonight, and this one is actually I was trying to rush it.

Speaker 1 41:40

I made it today instead of tonight.

Speaker 3 41:42

Same day, same day, same concept. And this one is actually going to be in my upcoming poetry collection, so it isn't into martial love against tyranny.

Speaker 3 41:53

But the next poetry collection will be out in the next month or two, so, and when it comes out, I'll I'll send you guys a copy of it. I'd love to have your, you know, as, as a gift of my appreciation towards you, I'd love to just give one to you. Awesome, thank you. But yeah, I'll read it. And it's, it's one that this time of year, autumn in particular, is always a it. I don't know why it's not in the autumn, I think just with the changing of seasons and you know, the leaves start dying and it's melancholy, right.

Speaker 1 42:20

It's the end. It's an ending of sorts right.

Speaker 3 42:23

Exactly so this is. This is one I wrote in the last month or so, and I did a spoken word on Instagram for it too, but I'll read it to you and it very much touches on what we just talked about. So this one's titled If I Died Tonight. If I died tonight, I can rest saying I tried to live it right. I can rest saying I tried to live it right. Despite the burdens and the hardships of my pain, I carried on, knowing the weight behind my name. If I died tonight, I'd like you to know I put up a fight when picking up the pieces of my shattered heart. I never hid from the world the reality of my scars.

Speaker 3 43:08

If I died tonight, I hope to be remembered like the sun shining bright From whispers in the wind to the stars above. You will always feel my presence, or you will always feel me through the presence of love. If I died tonight, wipe away the tears. Let truth guide your sight. It's okay to cry and let yourself mourn, but trust we are infinite. Soon again I'll be born. If I died tonight, I'd give my last condolences to the game of life. While I was only given a limited time to play, I can accept God's calling on this judgment day. If I die tonight, please take my hand, lead me to. The light Turns out. I've always been afraid to let go, so together we can be brave in the last moment that I'll know. If I die tonight, I want you to know it's going to be all right. I want you to know it's gonna be alright In your heart. I live forever, so let yourself move on. The world will keep on turning long after I am gone. If I die tonight, beautiful.

Speaker 1 44:15

Wow, I love your not to talk about form over concept, but I like the. Your use of rhyme is really, um, not heavy-handed. What do you call it like? Graceful? I really loved the use of rhyme. Anyway, virginia, I've read it. You're hearing for the first time, any reaction um action, um it.

Speaker 2 44:38

Obviously it has really personally to me. Um so I, as evan doesn't know, so dalvik lost his mom this year. I recently just lost my mom this year very recent right yeah very recent.

Speaker 1 44:53

Um, I'm trying not to cry sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot I've been.

Navigating Grief and Celebrating Life

Speaker 2 44:56

I've been wondering when you were going to chime in and hoping you would, but um no, and it does, it does resonate, um, and when you guys were kind of talking about how you know, and the poem does it's, it's, it hits perfectly for this time of year if my mom actually happens to be a halloween baby, um, and then of course I understand the seasons of change and, um, the whole death of life at this time, so it can be reborn in spring, and so, yeah, I mean it is, it's a transition, but it's not a sad transition I'm trying to think of the right word for it A very solace, kind of time of reflection, of, you know, remembering. So you could, you know, call it a reckoning to where you have to kind of face the truths that you've recently experienced as you wait for the new light to come in the spring to, of course, be reborn. I mean, you could also equate it to, you know, the mythological creature, the phoenix as well you know.

Speaker 2 46:04

And death rise, and death rises. A new birth of life.

Speaker 3 46:08

So, or a new chapter, a new season yeah, really beautiful, thank you, thank you, and you know my condolences to both of you and, you know, your moms. I mean, there's no easy way to process death and the whole concept of it. Even, you know, I think, one of the one of the most powerful pieces of art, I'll say art that I that I've seen on death. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Midnight Gospel, duncan Trussell's animation type of series and it's on Netflix and it's really just excerpts from his podcast actually that he put. He took clips from his podcast and he put it into on like an animation storyline going with the podcast. So it's a really fascinating concept.

Speaker 3 46:57

But the final episode, his mom had terminal cancer and was you know, so he recorded a podcast with her and the full podcast is worth listening to. The show was about 30 minutes of the actual conversation, but to hear the conversation he was having with his mom about her impending death, you know, and he says he says something along. She says, you know, I'm not a special case, and he he says, well, yeah, you are. And she goes well, that's just because I'm your mom, right, and he, he says yeah, but you know how, how do you, how do you mourn, how do you accept it, like, how do you even begin to process it? And it was just all she responded was you cry, you cry and you feel into it, and it was a very touching moment to see that.

Speaker 1 47:51

You know, yeah, I don't know if this is related or not, but my parents didn't take us to funerals. I don't know why I either not many people in our circle passed when we were children, or my parents were protecting us from it. I don't know, but my first uh, loved one that passed I was in college and it was tragic and untimely, unfortunately. So I got the call and I just burst into. I had no experience with death and I remember, but it was tragic and untimely. She was quite young.

Speaker 1 48:23

But then the first funeral was my grandfather's and same thing. We held his hand, we all made our peace. One Thanksgiving weekend, all 10 cousins, without discussing it, went in there and gave him permission and in my case, I promised him, you know, his legacy would live on through me, you know, and I let him know what an influence he was on me and your legacy is intact, don't worry. And we all said that you're free to go and he left. He went that Monday after everybody had vacated. So I've seen that a million times with my mom. There was no kumbaya moment is how I put it in my recent memoir like we didn't stand around with candles and give her permission, but we all stole our closure is how I put it according to our schedules, that same week. We knew it was, you know, right around the corner, and so we all stole our, made our peace in our own way, according to our own schedules, and then, lo and behold, she passed. But of course my dad was the last one to give her permission and that day is the day she died. So anyway, we've probably all seen this right.

Speaker 1 49:24

But I guess my point is at my grandfather's funeral, the first one I'd been to, I found it very healing, right. We, of course the service has a lot to do with it. Do you make it a celebration? Do you pay tribute? Is it a memorial? What is the tone and flavor? And it was very celebratory, but I remember even the tears were just very healing. It felt like a good cry, as they say. The only bad cries I have are have to do with betrayal, like the poisonous, toxic feelings in life. It has nothing to do with the natural cycles. Loss is a natural part of life, if that makes sense. The sort of shadow side of human nature, the disappointing side of human nature, is the only thing that gets to me on a toxic level. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 3 50:10

absolutely, absolutely, and I I have that.

Speaker 1 50:12

I love funerals. I don't like right.

Speaker 3 50:14

No yeah, I remember one time I told somebody and they said Evan, that is such a, such a dark way to look at the world. And I didn't think it was. But I told somebody this, and it was that every single relationship we have in our lives for one person or the other is going to end in either death or heartbreak. Every single one of them, right, and and. And. I said, and they're like wow, that is. You know that I don't want to think about that. That's not. That's not a positive way to look at things, but I was attempting to articulate it from the sense that grief is the natural byproduct of love. They're the same. You know. You can't have one without the other. If you're going to love, you're going to grieve.

Speaker 1 50:59

I just used the phrase in a story I just finished love without risk. It's a contradiction in terms, right, 100%. Yeah, I said something like while waiting for love without risk, my currency dried up.

Speaker 3 51:15

It ain't going to happen. Right, exactly Exactly. Currency dried up. It ain't gonna happen, right exactly exactly, and we have to be willing to. I guess we don't have to be willing to accept it, but at some point it's going to hit us in that way and you know, I I find it very fascinating that on a cultural level, particular in western culture, it's not like this in all cultures that we run from this.

Recognizing Interconnectedness and Choosing Love

Speaker 3 51:39

We run from the concept of death, right, we we run from the uh. Like when somebody dies, they quickly take away the body. You're not allowed to, you don't see it. You know, and it's very much a uh. It can be a very dark time. But if we kind of re-framed our way of processing it in the moment, I think it can be a very dark time. But if we kind of re-framed our way of processing it in the moment, I think it can be a very healing experience and then kind of give us a bit more grace as we go through life because we recognize how fragile love is how finite our connections are.

Speaker 3 52:15

In a sense, you know, the only thing that's going to live on after somebody dies is the love that you shared, right? Just because somebody dies doesn't mean the love goes away. We can all still go inward and feel that and connect with that and, if anything, it grows stronger. So I think if we can stop running away from it within ourselves, first it it. It kind of puts us into a new perspective on how we show up in our relationships, because we can be a bit more graceful and want to connect in the way that you know, cause if we're unconscious to it, it's very easy to burn bridges or, you know, be a bit more careless in our relationships, and that's not how anyone wants to go out, you out, you know, um, if you knew that this is the last time you're ever going to speak to somebody. Everybody's heard a story where, oh, I, I wish, I, I wish I could have corrected this or, you know, taken this back, and that was the last time I ever spoke to him nobody wants to go out like right, all right.

Speaker 1 53:15

Well, yeah, to to back up a little bit, uh. Uh, you know, I went to La Paz, mexico, for Dave or I, just I didn't plan it, we just happened to be there on day of the dead, and it's night and day the degree to which right Death is embraced, and it's an opportunity, like you I think, we're hinting at, to celebrate your ancestors and those who have passed. And but I think it's symbolic of, yeah, that gratitude. You have to recognize what's right in front of you, right by witnessing the absence of it, right. And so you appreciate what you've got when you realize it's finite, it's fleeting, it's a gift, a gift, you know, and life is a gift, it's, it's not a given right, there are no guarantees.

Speaker 3 54:03

So yeah, exactly, and to kind of bring it full circle in a sense, to where I think this topic originated from, like how I show up in a, in a, in a way where you said you kind of recognize that theme of death or kind of giving up hope in my own poetry. It's like that in itself is what drives the day to day. It doesn't. You know, I don't need to have one specific thing I need to accomplish, or I need to leave people with this one thing or this and that, like you know, my purpose each day is to show up and be loving and caring and compassionate, and for me that you know if I and caring and compassionate, and for me that you know if I can do that, that's enough. You know, that's really.

Speaker 1 54:43

That's really all I need to do, other than that, but it's almost like if each one of us was able to reach that place where we're just, you know, choosing every day to see the world through the eyes of love. And you said tyranny. I would love to explore what that means exactly. But I I often say, you know, every moment you can transform fear to love, and Marianne Williamson would say that's the definition of a miracle the shift from fear to love. So if you just do that all day, every day, even if you don't leave your block which I don't because I don't have a car, but you know, you, you experience the world, and even if, on a grassroots level, your friends and family benefit from that, the ripple effect would do the rest, right, right, and so be the change you wish to see in the world, you know.

Speaker 2 55:30

I'll say, Dominic, I think you said the key word too, which is it's a choice. I think sometimes we forget that, that everything we do is a choice. It's something we choose. We either choose to react in a good way or a bad way in every situation. That's, that's where our control lies is in that choice what was rosalind said?

Speaker 1 55:52

what's the other word for react? What's the better way to do it? You respond, you respond. You don't react right exactly. And I the word conscious has been on my. It's kind of a virtue, signaling right conscious, uncoupling conscious. But that really is what we all need to be doing. I think that's what we're being called upon to do and I'm actually going to take this opportunity to get back on track a little bit. I love our tangents, but it does you know we're hinting just now, evan, that you don't really have an agenda as far as what you want to impart or the difference you want to make in the world. You just want to show up and be your best self. I'm offering. If we all did that, the world would be a better place.

Speaker 1 56:34

Mid-pandemic right, the height of divisiveness, where I think even a q-tip got politicized. I said I offered that to my sister, like actually, you know, the 300 and something page book I just wrote was about dissolve, dissolving imaginary divisiveness by understanding the role of semantics, perspective, being judicious. You know that's a whole book about how a lot of these divides are imaginary right. And if we just learn to be a little more judicious and know, that's a whole book about how a lot of these divides are imaginary, right, and if we just learn to be a little more judicious and and understand the role, like I said, of all of those forces, um, there's a hell of a lot more that we share than the opposite, and she's literally. The answer was well, that's pretty pollyanna. I was like, oh my god, but it's the only, it's the only solution right right, a hundred percent.

Speaker 3 57:17

I think it is the only solution. Right Right, 100%. I think it is the only solution. I don't see any. There's no legislation or no-.

Speaker 1 57:24

Right policy?

Speaker 3 57:25

Yeah, nothing that you can to enforce that type of change right. It is just a conscious intent followed by conscious action that is going to have the ripple effect, and I think we need to trust in our own ripple effect, in the profound impact that it can have on the world.

Speaker 1 57:42

I think there's a lot of futility. There's a lot of people throwing their hands in the air because it is a big, bad world. And even when it comes to voting like it's I think that's symbolic of like do I really make it? Did my one little vote really make a difference? If we all thought right, if we all gave up, uh, we'd go to hell in a hand basket much more quickly. So, but hope is right. We're all just trying to renew hope all day, every day, that a humanity is redeemable. And actually, like I said, I'm going to take this opportunity and I'm going to actually read the question so I don't botch it. But because I see you really as a sage and a thought leader, I'm not going to let you off the hook and say I'm just trying to show up and be my best self every day. I know the story of interconnectivity had not an agenda, but it had a message and I'm on board for that message. Could you encapsulate the concept of that book?

Speaker 3 58:38

Yeah, absolutely, and you're right. The idea of just showing up as my best self is the way to, not what's the right way.

Speaker 1 58:51

Not try and impose my own, what I hold uh standard to, on others but also I'm going to let you off the hook too and say by being your best self, you're honoring our interconnectivity. So it is one and the same, but I'm just asking you to share it, you know, in a slightly different words. I guess?

Speaker 3 59:09

yeah, for sure, and you know the concept of that book, really, I. I started by talking about what. What does it even actually mean to be interconnected? Like, what is that? What does that look like? Because we're all in our own separate bodies. We have our separate lives, our separate selves. I am Evan, you know. Here we are three individuals having a conversation, right? So there is a level of physical separateness that is present and uniqueness in each individual that we should honor and recognize and celebrate, right, there is no one conforming way that we need to be per se. But the concept of interconnectivity, it's on a deeper level, right?

Speaker 3 59:56

You could think about, like, if you were to go into a forest, for example, and you see all the trees and you have separate trees and they all have their own unique features and branches and leaves and this, this and that, right. But if you were to go down beneath the surface of the trees, they're all interconnected through the roots and the mycelium network that's underneath there, and so they're constantly communicating, they're feeding each other. If there's a tree that is sick and diseased, other trees will send that tree extra nutrients. It will help, they will help revive the fellow trees within their forest, right? Uh, they'll alert when there's predators, you know if there's. If there's a termites attacking in one tree, the tree sends a signal through the roots in the mycelium network to the other trees. That allows the other trees to put up a defense network that actually will poison the termites and prevent them from eating the tree. Right? So you could arguably make the point that, even though you have individual trees, a forest is actually one superorganism, right? Right?

Speaker 1 1:00:58

Right, and so I want to throw it off track. But you know about mushrooms too, right? The largest organism in the world is a single network of shrooms.

Speaker 3 1:01:06

Right, exactly, and I think it speaks to that exact same point where we are the same in that way. Now, it can be difficult to perceive that when we're strictly identifying as just the physical body, because we all are separate in that sense, but when you start unpacking, what is our spiritual nature? Well, we do come from the same source. We do all contribute to the collective unconscious and the collective conscious.

Speaker 1 1:01:42

Right, I'm going to help you make your case, though in a mechanistic way, and I you will get back to this and you will continue to explain what the concept of your book, the story of interconnectivity, is. But I'm going to help you make your case because this is largely what my book was about. It is mechanistic, it is newton, it's pretty inarguable, right, our interconnectivity. So entanglement is alive and well. Right, we all know the concept of entanglement. That is embraced by science and that's the ultimate in right, rational empiricism. But also there's non-local communication within an organism. Right, you have one cell communicating through the cell wall to its neighboring cell. But you also have this inexplicable non-local communication. It's energetic, right? So I would say, when you look at, I think it's called the 12th monkey, is it the 12th monkey? Do you know that concept?

Speaker 3 1:02:35

I don't think I do personally no.

Speaker 1 1:02:37

It's controversial, it's not airtight, but it's the idea that a behavior in a sort of isolated gene pool, once it's entered a population, it will magically appear on the other side of the planet when there's geographically no contact. And so there's a million demonstrations that aren't yet fully explained right of how non local communication, of energetic signaling not through the cell wall, right is shuttling around little protein, little molecules all day, every day, creating new proteins, and so I'm just kind of throwing that in there that we're interconnected in a million ways, and I loved hearing this. Do you ever happen to read, uh, bruce lipton? Either, um, the biology of Bruce Lipton, either the Biology of Belief. That's the one I read.

Speaker 3 1:03:21

That's on my list. I have not read that one, yet It'll rock your world.

Speaker 1 1:03:25

but it'll validate everything you're saying, Because one concept From that book that really just Was beautiful to me. It wasn't just persuasive or convincing, it was just really beautiful. Is that before we had tissues Right and systems and organisms? If you're convincing, it was just really beautiful? Is that before we had tissues right and systems and organisms, when they were just really sophisticated single cell organisms, they still formed villages, they formed populations, they survived through non local energetic signaling to do you know chemical threats, environmental threats. They created the responses and they're called growth or protection responses by signaling to other right, single celled organisms. Within that community we were depending on one another and forming communities. Before Right, we even became sophisticated organisms. We were single celled organisms, Right, Right, so we were built out of that.

Speaker 3 1:04:17

We were, we were built out of community and interdependency right, that's the foundation of who we are and that's, I think, what I, in the book, I'm really attempting to hone in on that foundation and from there, I think, once we, once we get a grasp on that interconnected foundation, we can begin to unpack a lot of the beliefs that we hold that might be rooted in this myth of separation. It's a story of separation that we're telling ourselves, right? What is the psychological aspects of our culture that are running through me that I'm feeding a story of separation? Where is it that I might be? You know, to use the word of the year, it's divisive, right. Where am I feeding into that within myself? Right, and it's really just about first acknowledging it, there isn't always a quick fix solution to our triggers or to our pain, or to our healing, or to our patterns and habits, but it comes back to what we were talking about earlier, with choices and the power of choices. And so you know, through that you can begin to choose to make a process of healing a priority, a process of transformation a priority, right, and it gives us a sense of purpose, it allows us to come back to the heart, right, and actually go into the world from the perspective of recognizing this is who I am. I am part of this much greater whole. We could argue, like the trees in the forest, humanity is a super organism in its true, true nature, and I want to help feed that. I want to be like that one cell that is doing all it can to not just survive but thrive right and create a world that is thriving.

Exploring Healing and Human Connection

Speaker 3 1:06:13

And so really, the book is about exploring those concepts within ourselves and how to come back to the heart and start the process of healing. As I mentioned before the podcast, there's a few things I'm adding to it and rewriting and including in, and, based on the last couple of years that I've experienced, I think I can speak much more to. Well, what does it actually mean to heal the heart in particular? What does it actually mean to love more fully, right? What does it actually mean to heal? Because, like you were saying, there isn't a state of being healed, it's just the process of continually healing and unpacking as we go along, as we do face more troubles or shadows within the world or within ourself when those blind spots come into our awareness. So it's really meant to be sort of a guidebook in that way to begin exploring. I love it.

Speaker 1 1:07:10

Yeah, you might have already answered this next question then, but I pretty much wrote down in what you just said. I heard that the healing that we're all invested in, right, I mean, I guess what I heard a little bit is, like you do, adapt or die. So, in my view, the evolution of our norm you know, I call it the noosphere all those invisibles, our policies, or you know, norms, mores, principles, ethics, all those things are, you know, we would have perished a long time ago if that wasn't evolving along with our biology. And so I guess I'm just going to read it and if there's more to say on this, you might have already answered it. But I wrote, you know, again, you hinted at that we all can contribute if we look and these are my words look beyond the end of our fucking nose right, and acknowledge our interconnectivity, that, yeah, maybe it's worth preserving, maybe this huge organism that is humanity is kind of worth saving. So the word I wrote my question, the way I wrote the question, was with the caveat that there is an entire universe beyond this tiny rock and its inhabitants, meaning humanity.

Speaker 1 1:08:15

I think we'd agree that, although all good things come to come to an end, right, and then you hear this popular sentiment uh, I think even julia roberts said it in that one documentary yeah, the earth will be fine without us, right? And then rosalind was like, but no, no, no, that like you, don't just give up on humanity. We have a great relationship with this rock that we live on. So it's kind of an easy, lazy way out to say, ah, the earth will be fine without us, as if we're not redeemable. Anyway, assuming what we've got going on here is a pretty good thing worth saving, right. What is the biggest and you might have answered it what is the biggest existential threat to man's survival or proliferation, if you want to put it that way, or to the evolution of the noosphere that I hinted at a moment ago? What is the biggest threat, first of all? Then, of course, there's a follow-up question Is it the separation?

Speaker 3 1:09:06

That's a beautiful question. Yeah, I would say the biggest threat to our survival is ourselves, and it's the story of separation that we have come to actually inhabit. Because, you're right, there are so many beautiful, beautiful, redeemable qualities about us. Because not only do we get to inhabit the earth right, we get to explore, we get to create, we get to recognize beauty, we get to sacred this, this, this tiny rock that's floating in the abyss of the universe right, we get to actually perceive and experience that. And just for that reason alone, it can't be just. I mean, for me, that can't be not meaningful, that can't not mean something right, we get to experience love, we get to have all of these beautiful, beautiful experiences. To have all of these beautiful, beautiful experiences, and really it's just our, because this world is in the culture.

Speaker 2 1:10:06

It's just a byproduct of our creation and our stories.

Speaker 1 1:10:08

It's nothing, yeah, yeah. Well, that's why I was. I think we're saying that if we do our inner work, then what we manifest collectively as humanity, how could it not transform right?

Speaker 3 1:10:19

Right, exactly Because really I truly believe that the macro level, the collective, is just a macrocosm for the individual, of course shift within individuals. Surely, over time, as more and more individuals make that shift, that will shift at the macro level in terms of how we organize ourselves and what it is we prioritize and the ways in which we choose to. You know, I I think organize is a good way to put it you know, what are the systems we?

Speaker 2 1:10:54

have in place. I love that you just brought up the whole macro level, because I was just thinking that, because I'm wondering and and this is, and I'd love to hear what your opinion is on this but sometimes I think kind of some of the decisiveness that we have where you know, where you see such that divide and culture, you know, on a societal level, is it because we're letting the macro level influence so much to the micro level, forgetting that it needs to be from micro level to macro versus macro to micro?

Speaker 1 1:11:27

right, we're watching too much news.

Speaker 3 1:11:29

Yeah, go ahead and I definitely think that's a part of it, because I think we get we forget to look to our communities and to the people around us to really give our worldview in a sense. It's so easy to feed into what we're seeing take place at a macro level and let that shape our perception and then let how we show up be what we just saw on TV.

Speaker 1 1:11:57

I think we're letting the status quo have its way with us. We're letting social conditioning run the show right, exactly.

Exploring Interconnectedness and Love

Speaker 3 1:12:04

Well, and that's actually this kind of feeds into. Something you brought up earlier and kind of hinted at as a question was why I used the word tyranny. Um, because I think the the it was a deliberate choice to use that word instead of the word fear, and I think because the greatest tyranny we really face it is in our own minds, it's in our own perception, it's in our own ways that we choose to live. If we're choosing to live in fear, if we're choosing to be divisive, and tyranny can exist on a collective level. If it doesn't exist within the hearts and minds of the individuals, it just can't. It can't operate because it feeds on fear, it feeds on the deconstruction of our values.

Speaker 1 1:12:49

I guess I'm going to look up. I don't even really know the depth. I know what a tyrannical dictator is. I know what a tyrant is. You're making me rethink the word. Right, I mean it's terrorism and other. We're allowing ourselves to be terrorized by the stories that we're internalizing on autopilot, is that?

Speaker 3 1:13:08

related? Yeah, no, I think so. I think so Because, if we're taking just the idea that the macro reflects the micro, whether it's on a global scale, I mean it would also include words, right, it would include these concepts that we have become so familiar with, and I think- yeah, words are just a way of taking concepts and interpreting them in the perceptual realm. Anyway, Right, right, exactly. So before.

Speaker 1 1:13:34

I move on to the next question. I want to back you up on a couple of things you said. All right, what I heard and what you said, if the biggest existential not to put words in your mouth but if you want to commit to this idea that, yes, our imaginary separation is the biggest existential threat to our survival, I would agree, because here we are, the only organism that destroys its own habitat systematically, all day, every day, like, I think, if we had a bigger appreciation of not just the circle of life but, yeah, not just the human race, but our interconnectivity with this entire ecosystem, right, then maybe we wouldn't be destroying the planet or destroying our habitat. So I'm just kind of backing you up on that. I think there's a million ways in which acknowledging our interconnectivity would solve a lot of our problems. I mean, from you know, manifest destiny and capitalist greed and exploitation and colonization and marginalization all of those things, right, are the product, I think, of separation run amok I would agree with you.

Speaker 3 1:14:39

Yeah, and it's it one. One thing to kind of back up what you're saying is it's a lot of times when we're talking about these things it almost feels like I try not to make it like a this dreamy concept that's large and unachievable and it's like how do you even bring that down to a practical level for people? You know, it's just, it is as simple as showing up.

Speaker 3 1:15:02

It is as simple as switching your heart, mind and body and trusting that that in itself is sending the ripple effect into the world and creating the difference Because, like you're saying, there is no policy that's going to like as soon as you attempt to uh, enforce love. That's why I called it to marshal love against tyranny, you can't, you can't actually inform you yeah, you can't militarize love, you can't force it on people. So it's about really a subtle shift of awareness and that is the most practical thing you can actually even do to even get the ball rolling on this, which will tell me, make it a priority.

Speaker 1 1:15:44

Yes, well, tell me if this relates. I you know, love keeps coming up right. And this Pollyanna idea that if we started with the man in the mirror now I'm quoting Michael Jackson, right, Before it was, but be the wish you change and be the change you wish to see in the world, that was Gandhi, right, that's the same idea Start with the man in the mirror. But I would say, if you kind of take the sentiment that it takes a village right, that we're all one big tapestry. I think if we all and there's a million ways of putting it, I said work a minute ago, I don't think it's drudgery, but if we all did look beyond the end of our nose, acknowledged our interconnectivity, acknowledged that by nurturing our inner right, our inner relationship with collective consciousness, that the ripple effect would do its job, because we are all a village right and it takes a village.

Speaker 1 1:16:33

I think if we took the time to I don't know have a practice, meditate, meditate every day, or have some kind of spiritual practice, we would automatically get in touch with our unique, authentic gifts, which are subjective, they're unique to the individual right. We would be called upon, we would hear the calling number one right, and then we would contribute it back. So I say amen to political activists, because I don't have that in me. I'm not here for that. I'm here to be an artist and change minds by touching hearts, if that makes sense. So we would discover our unique, authentic gifts. We would be called upon to contribute them back in our own unique way. Thank god for militant activists, right. Thank god for our military, and, uh, aristotle would have called it the spirited element, right. I mean? I mean, that's problematic too, but anyway, I just think there's a million ways in which we can help, not just in this idealistic march toward human potential, but get us out of the trouble we're in.

Speaker 3 1:17:32

Yeah for sure. Once you have that foundation, then that's where the real work begins on the ground, within your local community, with your neighbors in your.

Speaker 1 1:17:41

You know, whatever your job is, whatever your creative expression is, you know, once you have that foundation, the work that you put out there is going to be the expression of that foundation of that foundation, yeah, and I'm just offering and not everybody is gonna like be able to go there, but I'm offering the idea that, through non-local communication, energetic communication, the actual collective consciousness, the sum of all of our subjective experiences, whatever you want to call that, god or collective intelligence source there's a million words for it it is actually sending energy, genetic and what energetic signaling saying here's what's needed lest we perish. Here's what's needed. And it is nothing less than a calling or a ministry absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:18:30

I agree with you 100 on that yeah, and even if somebody's called upon to build, know, put one brick on top of the other and build a building, it it's. We're all here, right For a different to serve a different role in a humanities dialectic.

Speaker 3 1:18:46

I'm 100% and it's beautiful. It's beautiful to honor each unique role and honor each calling of expression.

Speaker 1 1:18:54

Yeah, that's why I love the word Amen, just amen to all of it. Amen, amen I don't think that means being complacent, you know what I mean or lackadaisical. I think it's really truly. Anyway, there there's obviously a lot of um people that are disconnected, and maybe that's where the um social, societal ills kick in, right, and I don't know. I think we're kind of saying the same thing in a million different ways here, right.

Speaker 3 1:19:20

Well, it's just love it's the foundational, it's if, to me it feels like if there's one foundational truth that we can keep coming back to, it's that you know, like at the end of the day, you know we can say it in a million different ways, yet it's all the same thing and it speaks to the. It speaks the same language. It's a language we can all understand when we can get past the mind and we can get past our conditioning and what we want to hold on to or our blockages, whatever it might be. Everybody has unique circumstances we can recognize.

Speaker 3 1:19:55

Okay, there is truth in I can, it's a truth that I can feel. It's not a truth I can always truly capture and express in the perfect way. I think a great artist it it, it demonstrates that, but it leaves us wanting more right and in a masterpiece it want, it makes us want to, to see even more, to explore it even more right, and so— A mystery, in other words. Because it is a mystery, there's no true word. That's why you have God source, you have all these different ways of expressing.

Speaker 1 1:20:31

There's no one word that can actually—that puts a pretty bow on it where it's like oh, that's it, that's it right there, that's why I love the word ineffable, right, um, I guess in ancient hebrew anyway, I don't know about modern, but he the, the word of god, is not to be spoken because it's completely ineffable. So, right, I love that idea. It's a little romantic, but anyway. So I feel like we have kind of diagnosed right the biggest existential threat to man, maybe as our disconnectedness or separation. So the next follow up question was this A popular sentiment posits that when faced with a challenge, the question we must ask ourselves is what am I being called upon to grow?

Speaker 1 1:21:17

In other words, what quality must I grow in myself to meet this challenge? I'm sure you've heard something similar, right? So what did I write? So, on a macro level, in the face of this existential threat that we just laid out, how must we adapt in order to persist, to thrive, to evolve toward human potential? Or, put another way, in the spirit of this podcast, what is the new story that we must collectively tell about the human condition?

Speaker 3 1:21:47

What is the new story to tell? That's beautiful. I think the new story will start to tell it once we truly learn how to first listen and pause and reflect. Right, I think that's the first thing to even begin to understand, because we only hold one tiny sliver, one tiny fraction of the story within our own awareness. Right, I have my life and I connect with others and learn from them and learn from other people's experiences, but there is so much that I don't know on a personal level, and that's all of us. So I think the first step is really learning how to listen, listen to what the other, what are the stories we are telling ourselves right now?

Speaker 3 1:22:34

What is the story that the collective is telling? Can I listen to that, process it, digest it, dissect it, look at it at all angles and begin to put it up against my own experiences and my own understanding and my own values that I hold? You know, if we have this foundation, if we start cultivating this foundation of love within ourself, well, does this story that we're telling ourself actually, does it actually meet that standard? And you know, for the collective level, a lot of the answer is going to be no. It's going to be a resounding no.

Speaker 3 1:23:07

You know there's a lot of divisiveness. There's a lot of, you know, division, perpetuated within various aspects of our systematic approach. And so once we're able to actually listen and diagnose, then it's about coming together with one another to craft it together, and that's through what we were just talking about honoring the unique expression. Right, the new stories are gonna be told and expressed, certainly through the visionaries and through the artists, and through the artists and through the poets to capture the work that's being done. But it is going to be about building uh systems that are representative of that quality of love and connectedness. You know we have the resources to uh create a world where children don't have to go hungry and you know everybody has can have. And I'm not trying to paint some sort of utopia necessarily, because the idea of a utopia, I think, as soon as you label something a utopia, it's down, it's bound to fall into disarray, and you know, right, right, right, right exactly.

Speaker 3 1:24:18

We're never going to have. We're never. I think we need to accept that we're never going to have a perfect world, because we are not perfect the human. There's always going to be darkness to the light. There's night and day, for a reason right. So I think we have to come to acceptance that, you know, we're always going to be learning, we're always going to be growing, there's always going to be more work to do and all that we can actually do is work to build the foundation that is built on love and built on compassion and built on listening to one another and in trusting in one another. I think trust is such a key factor because we don't trust each other in this world, we don't trust somebody who holds a different view. We don't trust somebody who doesn't think the same way we do. We view it as a we kind of kick into the survival mode fight or flight or freeze right.

Speaker 1 1:25:11

Right, right, but also you've talked the episode with your professor that really got my attention. You talked about these tribal instincts, right, I think we've evolved out of some of these, like demonizing the other right, or scarcity of resources, which right stokes fear, and I think we're seeing it all play out in the election cycle and the campaigning right, but it's almost not avoidable in my world. I just want to ask this question would you agree that? I think you see a lot of people yeah, they're indulging identity politics and forging a common enemy in order to bond against the common enemy. That's what a lot of the divisiveness is. Um, so I see people adopt, in the spirit of this podcast, adopting stories right and left that don't just inform their worldview but kind of dictate it, and bonding in those let's just be honest conspiracy theories. So there's a lot of people indulging deep, dark rabbit holes in the internet and adopting hook, hook, line and sinker conspiracy theories.

Speaker 1 1:26:19

The way I look at it is, I'm an r and you said something about artists and creatives being our prophets, and I want to go back to that. I love you for saying that, but, uh, I would say, as an artist, I've always seen through the matrix is the way I put it. I've never bought social conditioning to begin, and I'm a gay man too, so I have good reason to reject social norms for the most part and right. I've spent my whole life seeing through them as such and but I've done a lot of acid, I've done shrooms, I've smoked a lot of pot, I had my day right of like, not just adopting conspiracy theories, but being skeptical. I think it's good to be skeptical of our institutions, right.

Speaker 1 1:26:59

However, I learned, probably in my 20s, to take things at face value, right, unless there's a really good reason. So I see us as culturally being in sort of an adolescent phase where we're kind of high on seeing through the matrix for the first time, but we're not very practiced at it. I'm going to exclude myself from that. I've been doing it my entire life. So I'm very practiced at it and I now take things at face value. I don't have a paranoid bone in my body and I don don't adopt you name it chemtrails, pizzagate none of it all rolls off. So do you agree that we're kind of just high on not just being skeptical at the moment, but actually a little paranoid?

Speaker 3 1:27:42

oh, I think definitely, and I think the reason people can fall into deep, deep, dark rabbit holes is because they want a they, they want to point the finger at someone or something as the reason, as things, as the way things are, like scapegoats, right, kind of creating a scapegoat for the uh reality that we're living in. You know, and I'm all for people wanting the truth and to under uncover whatever, uh, whatever is going on behind the scenes, because there's so there's things we don't see and there's things we don't know, and that's just a part of the, the world that we're living in, but there we don't need to find the common enemy and and hang on, like it's the salem witch trials. You know, I was about to say like we come up with.

Embracing Change in Discomfort

Speaker 1 1:28:31

The higher the stakes get, the more elaborate the explanations, right so an unprecedented pandemic. You're going to go way out in the weeds and coming up with a really elaborate exploration explanation. Sorry, it's so funny you would mention the salem witch trials because I just posted this mainly for a friend of mine. I just wrote like I'm going to get in trouble here, but I just wrote we all agree that the Salem witch trials was a mass hallucination. If you're old enough to remember the McMartin preschool trials, we agree it was a mass hallucination. You could say Hitler, right, relied on a lot of the same tactics. Uh, a mass hallucination. Fear, fear is the reason people adopted those hook line and sinker hysteria. Right, exactly hysteria. So I'm sorry. This one will be on the books someday. I'll leave it at that. This moment will be in the history books as and it'll be diagnosable sorry yeah, so here's, here's a thought to that.

Speaker 2 1:29:36

Uh, dominic, so as you're talking, because it's it's one of my favorite things to say to people when they start to get you know fear, you know fear starts to set in. Hysteria starts to set in, you know, hallucination, whatever you know, whatever you want to use for delusion.

Speaker 2 1:29:53

Delusion is a good one yeah, getting delusional, whatever it's usually because change is coming and it's a change that you're reluctant to. But where I'm going, that is this, and I'm literally gonna put this on when, if I, if I should say it I'm trying to decide if I'm going to do private practice or not. But when the day comes, if I do private practice I'm going to put on my walls when people walk into the lobby is the only constant is change, because if you think about that, the world's always changing. Every morning we wake up, it's a new day, right? Isn't that the whole point? Dawn to you know, dusk, dusk to dawn, it's the change. Light to dark, seasons change. I mean, we get older and I think we kind of get, at least in my mind, I think, where you see people dig in, it's like they don't want to, they like the status quo.

Speaker 2 1:30:52

They like nobody likes being uncomfortable but, I think it's in that. You know, going back to what I said kind of earlier in the podcast, it's that discomfort, it's when we're in those shadow moments.

Speaker 1 1:31:03

When we grow.

Speaker 2 1:31:03

When we grow and we learn.

Speaker 1 1:31:06

Crucibles my sister would call them right yes, or living a big crucible. I love it. I support you in putting that on your wall.

Speaker 3 1:31:16

I think it's definitely needed, because change is the only constant, and when there's change, change invokes fear, because people are comfortable in the world that they've created for themselves, and people only change usually when they're forced to change. Right, that's usually when the change happens. It's when. I heard a good quote about that, and I'll probably butcher it because I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something along the lines of um, people change when the pain of the pain of staying the same hurts more than the chain, than the pain of the change itself.

Speaker 1 1:31:53

Yep, right, yeah was that michael beckwith, by chance? Does that ring a bell?

Speaker 3 1:31:57

I think it might have been yeah well he talks.

Speaker 1 1:31:59

I mean it's the same concept. But he says pain pushes till inspiration pulls. So the archetype of the dark night of the soul means that, yeah, you've got to hit bottom to hear that still small voice that's calling you in a new direction. You know, I'm just tying it back to story. Those are archetype, you know archetypal templates. You have that dark night of the soul. I've been there. I didn't like you, I thought I was doing okay in life. Really, I thought I was on it and I am more than I than I always thought. Well, at least I'm lucid about the spiritual journey, at least you know we're not all objective about ourselves, but at least I'm lucid and I thought I was doing okay. But, man, the universe can surprise you and I say that if you're not paying attention to something, the universe will speak louder and louder to get your attention every time always a little smacky and you know it tries to be gracious at first.

Speaker 3 1:32:54

It really does tries to be gracious and when we ignore those little gracious pulls it's like, all right, let me smack you in the face a little bit, let me slap you down there you go now. You'll change. You could have had it easier, but it is what it is yeah, anyway.

Speaker 1 1:33:10

But again, thank god for those moments, because we wouldn't well I do think, adapt or die. I'm a scorpio, for god's sake, I'm so nostalgic. I love and I think this is just another topic entirely but I think that, uh, a real popular sentiment is. You know, I'm a big fan of eck Tolle. Right, be in the moment, be in the moment, I'm all for that. But I'm sorry, my memories are what make me a writer. This came up earlier. I was going to mention the default mode network. Right, our whole personality is the product of the me, the I, our whole identity is based in our memories and our conception, our concept of who we are. So, anyway, I cherish my memories. They're what make me a writer. They actually make life rich, they keep me. My memories keep me warm on winter nights. But we live in a culture that shames like clinging to the past or perseverating on the past. Anyone that values the past is largely shamed. Would you kind of agree with that? Anyone who values the past is largely shamed.

Speaker 3 1:34:09

Yeah, you kind of agree with that. Anyone who values the past is largely shamed yeah it's.

Exploring Love, Integrity, and Balance

Speaker 1 1:34:13

We live in a culture that says move on. Uh, you gotta adapt or die. And there's not a lot of rev. I'm just speaking as a scorpio, I don't. I think there's. It's really fashionable to say let go of the past, move on or at the very least be in the moment. Right, and we scorpions scorpios that care about the past are seen as clinging to the past or perseverating on it or whatever. I think you can find a balance and I think we can cherish the past, because they say, you know, god forbid we forget the horrors of history, lest they repeat themselves. Sometimes it's necessary to kind of tell the stories of the past, but yeah, maybe our job is to reframe them as aspirational, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3 1:34:53

Absolutely, and that's a really good point because it kind of ties into some of the other ideas I've been playing with lately about what is the right balance between letting go versus holding on right. I mean, if you go, you study as a monk in Buddhism, for example. You're letting go of everything, hold on to nothing. Attachment is the root of desire, and desire creates suffering. But at the same time you could make the argument well, desire is what fuels our impulse for creativity and our impulse to have a life that is meaningful. So we can't just let go of everything and start in the. You know what would our foundation be Realistically?

Speaker 1 1:35:38

I agree, I agree, I want to follow up on that. And so passion right, that's another word for desire. Passion, that is our connection, that is our engagement in life, and so I think artists will never give that up. And you know, I think it's very clinical to if you want to be your best spiritual self, according to a lot of philosophic traditions and spiritual traditions, that kind of detachment actually can detach you from your humanity. So I think my sister is a great example of just finding that balance where you know this sensual realm is where we're meant to experience passion and connection and sensuality. And what's the other word? Oh, like romance and all those things that are attachments. So the four agreements is a good example. Did either of you read that by chance?

Speaker 3 1:36:26

Yeah, yeah, don Miguel Ruiz.

Speaker 1 1:36:27

Yeah, I think you posted that recently, virginia, I did recently post that. I did. I read out by chance.

Speaker 2 1:36:30

Yeah, yeah, don miguel ruiz, yeah, I think you posted that recently. Virginia, I did recently post that?

Speaker 1 1:36:32

yeah, I, I read it. It was a bestseller. I loved it, I can't argue with it. But unfortunately it was handed to me by an ex who I you know I saw certain things in the book that were him, and so the one the only contention I had with that book was one of and I do think if you do any one of the four agreements in the book, the rest fall into place actually. But when it came to that detachment, you know, don't take anything personally. Okay, we all learned this a long time ago.

Speaker 1 1:37:01

If somebody doesn't like your shirt, it's largely about them and not you. That's a good one. When it comes to a stranger that doesn't like your shirt, aren't our relationships an agreement that you know what I actually do, care what you think and I'm actually not going to compromise myself? Right for you, but you care about what your loved ones think and you consider them in your decision making. So I just kind of resisted that one, like no, we're not all islands. Our interconnectivity is our bond, our agreement, our covenant. Right, the code. It's the only code, and I like being impeccable with your word. I dated somebody that said words are cheap. It's actions that tell the true story. That's another popular sentiment, and I kind of agree. Words are cheap, but that's really convenient for somebody who's been deceived or betrayed, for those who's been deceived or betrayed, for those who've been lucky enough right where betrayal is not a theme in their life. You might say our codes, our agreements with one another are all we have. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Life is a Rorschach test.

Speaker 3 1:38:05

Absolutely Well, and I've to speak to that point directly about the words being cheap and it's somebody who's a anybody who writes or does poetry is going to find value in word. I mean, it's just a natural byproduct of that. So I have it. I have faced betrayal and through word, words not aligning with action, and it hurts that much more. As somebody who does value right because it, and I can see why somebody would lose faith in the word of course, of course you know but one of the rules is be impeccable.

Speaker 1 1:38:41

One of the four agreements is be impeccable with your word, and so, thankfully, my daddy raised me right on that one. Like integrity, the amount of your word was so valued on both sides of my family so I do think that kind of saves you from that one right. But it takes two to tango. You know you're lucky if you meet a partner who's impeccable with his or her word.

Speaker 3 1:39:04

Absolutely make that a conscious uh. As long as you're consciously being impeccable with your word, you'll. You tend to find very quickly whether other people are impeccable with their word or not, and so you don't have to go too deep with them if you, if you realize right off the bat, oh, this person's word isn't their, their actions don't align with their words. Maybe this isn't gonna be the the love of my life, or they're you know, whatever I think they call that a red flag maybe yeah, so yeah well, I, we're coming up on an hour and 45 minutes.

Speaker 1 1:39:39

I'm glad it went long because there's some good stuff in here. Uh, with a little bit of editing, I think we got into some good territory. Uh, but with the caveat of course, I would love to have you back on. I know you're you're busy, but please be a regular on this show.

Speaker 3 1:39:52

Oh, absolutely Anytime you want to have me on, I would love it. This has been a lot of fun. I feel like we're, in a way, it almost feels like we're just scraping the surface of the conversation.

Speaker 1 1:40:02

But there's some good stuff in here. I think there's grains of things people will benefit from. We're going to start doing panels too. By the way, if you'd like to be a talking head, I know that's that's a pretty juicy offer. Yeah, I'd love to. We might take themes and have some of our regulars on to do sort of panels and get more perspectives. So anyway, I'll hit you up about that. But is there anything you'd like to close with? I feel like, we believe it or not, everything was kind of under the umbrella of storytelling, I think yeah, it was um.

Speaker 3 1:40:33

You know, I can, I can I read you a quick poem to summarize absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:40:37

Yes, I'm sorry I forgot to go back oh no, don't even worry about it.

Speaker 3 1:40:41

Well, and this will kind of um, I guess is a good, I'll read the poem itself that's called to Martial Love, dot dot dot, and it's just kind of a way to summarize my own understanding of whether it's good versus evil living in love and how we actually kind of actualize a lot of these concepts that we were talking about. And you know it's funny is, when I was talking to you I didn't even mention this one as a possibility of reading it, but it popped into my mind, a few of reading it, but it, you know it popped into my mind a few minutes ago, like, oh, that would that one actually really would summarize well what we've been speaking to.

Speaker 1 1:41:16

I mean, it's it's only a few lines, so no, it's perfect, perfect, and it is the title of the book.

Speaker 3 1:41:20

So Right yeah.

Speaker 3 1:41:28

Well this we marshal love against tyranny by listening for calls of the heart when the path is hard to follow, resisting devilish temptations when tyranny drowns the mind in sorrow, offering a hand of unity across the perceived divide, finding strength to forgive, surrendering our past to the divine, looking in the eyes of broken men and still choosing to see their soul, speaking the language of truth and trusting others' right to know, showing up to give your all when times are at their hardest, courageously letting love in as a sole light in the darkness, daring to dream together, accepting if it's meant to be, coming back to presence, giving love the space to be free. And that's how you marshal love against.

Speaker 1 1:42:24

Oh, I love it. It's the handbook, absolutely. I'm going to meditate on it. I'm going to listen back when I edit this, obviously, but I think there's a lot there, right. There's a'm gonna meditate on. I'm gonna listen back when I edit this, obviously, but I think there's a lot there, right, there's a lot to meditate on yes, each poem can serve as a meditation.

Speaker 3 1:42:37

That's kind of how I write, absolutely beautiful I hadn't even thought of that.

Speaker 1 1:42:41

Yeah, um, I just it's. I'm a little bit slow on the uptake sometimes. I've got to live with right. I don't. When I see a, I don't immediately jump in. If somebody does that, the minute you walk out of the theater I usually go let me talk to you tomorrow, let me live with it for a while and let it sink in. But I think I got the gist of that poem. It's really beautiful. Oh well, thank you, and I'm going to start today.

Speaker 3 1:43:05

Well, yeah, it felt like a very fitting way to end what was a profound conversation for me to take part in. It's connecting a lot of dots for me. You guys are hosting some tremendous conversations on here.

Speaker 1 1:43:18

Thank you for being part of it. Virginia knows I like to take a really good ending and just kind of beat the dead horse, so let's leave this one alone. That was a perfect way to end it.

Speaker 3 1:43:29

Beautiful, well, I appreciate you guys and what you're doing dead horse so let's leave this one alone. That was a perfect way to end it beautiful. Well, I appreciate you guys and you know what you're doing and, like I said, I'll come back on anytime.

Speaker 1 1:43:36

I I love, this is what I live for conversations like this so awesome we loved having you so all right thanks, man, and to our listeners remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can write our own story. See you next time.