Story in a Tech-Driven World with Mindfulness Coach Denise Pyles

What if the ancient art of storytelling held the key to our humanity in a world increasingly dominated by technology and AI? Join our conversation with Denise Pyles, a former nun-turned-mindfulness coach who breaks down the role of Mindfulness (formerly 'spirituality') in the corporate arena. Best practices suggest that mindfulness increases productivity, an end in itself. But beyond this materialistic outcome lies the realm of mindfulness as purposeful contribution to the collective in our shared march toward human potential!
GUEST BIO: 
Denise Pyles is a mindfulness coach and the author of "Burn Without Burning Out: 7 Micro-Mindfulness Habits for Clear Thinking, Decisive Action, and Recovery from Burnout." Her mission is to empower others to find nurturing stillness within a distracted world. With over 35,000 hours of mindfulness practice and a background as a former nun, Denise brings depth and insight into the world of mindfulness. Specializing in creating practical micro-mindfulness techniques, she serves as a guide for professionals in high-stress, high-performance fields like tech. Denise has crafted a unique approach that blends deep-rooted mindfulness practices with real-world applicability, offering valuable tools for managing stress, improving productivity, and cultivating resilience amidst the pressures of fast-paced careers and life transitions.

Learn more about Denise Pyles at the links below:
https://denisepyles.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisepyles/
https://denisepyles.substack.com/
https://medium.com/@denpyl

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:46

Denise Piles is a mindfulness coach and the author of Burn Without Burning Out Seven Micro-Mindfulness Habits for Clear Thinking, decisive Action and Recovery from Burnout. Her mission is to empower others to find nurturing stillness within a distracted world. With over 35,000 hours of mindfulness practice and a background as a former nun, denise brings depth and insight into the world of mindfulness. Specializing in creating practical micro-mindfulness techniques, she serves as a guide for professionals in high-stress, high-performance fields, like tech. Denise has crafted a unique approach that blends deep-rooted mindfulness practices with real-world applicability, offering valuable tools for managing stress with real-world applicability, offering valuable tools for managing stress, improving productivity and cultivating resilience amid the pressures of a fast-paced career and life transitions. Welcome, denise.

Speaker 2 1:39

Piles. Thank you, dominic and Virginia. Great to meet you all.

Speaker 1 1:44

Thanks for being here. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 3 1:47

We're looking forward to the conversation today.

Speaker 1 1:50

I guess the way I'd like to start is I did have the pleasure of, as I said in the pre-interview, watching a couple other podcasts, which was really enlightening, so I'm inspired to learn more. But one rote question we've been asking in our new season of all of our guests is to do with story. That's the spirit of our podcast. So I do remember one section where I guess it was under the context of journaling, toward the end of mindfulness. You were talking about journaling and you did hit on story, so I'm just going to take a chance with this one. We ask it of you know, usually our people in the literary world or filmmakers, people who identify as storytellers, but in your practice, I'm guessing, the theme of story is pretty integral. So what would you say is the role of storytelling in culture and, traditionally, what has it served? If you trace modern cinema back to oral tradition around the campfire, we've been doing it a while now. So do you have any opinions on what story serves in culture and then, has that evolved over time?

Speaker 2 2:56

That's a great question, dominic. For me, in my life, growing up, storytelling is what makes us human. It is part of our culture, I think, no matter where we live, because if we're true to who we are as humans, we all have stories to tell and we have lived in those stories in our experience and they make great connecting points for other people, to help inspire others to own their stories as well.

Speaker 1 3:24

Yeah that's called inspiration, isn't it Inspire?

Speaker 2 3:28

others, and also I've learned in my life to lead a reflective life, even before I became a nun. I grew up in a family of seven, and there's a lot of stories around there. We grew up in a house of 1,300 square feet and shared one bathroom. So there was a lot of storytelling and communication that we had to get right with each other to live and have fun together and growing up and not murder one another.

Speaker 1 3:56

Yeah, right. I'm from a family of six.

Speaker 2 3:59

That was quiet and we at least had two bathrooms and everybody lived Exactly, and my parents eventually expanded the house to have two bathrooms for a bathroom and a half so they could have their own. But the kitchen was the biggest room in our house, and so storytelling happened around the kitchen table, almost like that ancient campfire.

Speaker 1 4:19

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 4:22

It does center around food a lot of times. Food for us it was food and card playing and listening to my aunts and uncles, uh, my grandparents, stories of my grandparents and great grandparents and connecting to that ancestral story that has transformed us as human beings to who we are today, and I just really believe, too, that we're like our ancestors in that we have stories to tell. In our current culture, when people are freaked out sometimes over AI, I'm saying it's okay, because what makes us human is that we are storytellers and we are rooted in stories that change us, that shape our experience, and all I can do that is reflect that back so that it's like we're still human.

Speaker 1 5:09

Beautiful. Yeah, that's inspiring to hear, right, everybody's a little. We call it catastrophizing Everybody's, you know, doom speaking about the future of AI, and that's a beautiful way to put it. And, yeah, the way I I mean similar to what you just said, I feel like it's just taking old, tired tropes and cobbling them together and maybe forming the semblance of a story. But it does take the human element to tell an inspired story, right, with I don't know thematic content of some kind of cultural value. You can't just throw a bunch of tropes together and and call it a story. So, yeah, as of as, as of now, I feel like the human element is pretty crucial in story that transforms anyway.

Speaker 1 5:52

Anyway, that's really beautiful, virginia. Isn't it interesting the different ways people put it? We hear a lot of really universal thoughts on storytelling, but I just love the nuances of how each person puts it. So, yeah, I guess I want to go back. The logical thing is talk about the transition right from serving and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I believe you were involved in Catholic charities for the most part.

Speaker 2 6:16

Yes, well, I'm a former nun in the Roman Catholic tradition and I grew up the one of seven. I grew up in a Catholic family, so the Catholic thing was you know, it's sort of like in my DNA, like being from I'm originally from Louisville, kentucky, I'll always be from Kentucky, kind of thing, and the sense of growing up in a family of seven. My parents to my dad was a World War II veteran, so the sense of being frugal, being. He served in the Navy and there's a whole chapter I wrote on in my book about what I learned on lessons in gratitude from my dad based on his war experience.

Speaker 2 6:53

But we learned that in the family of that the sense is that it was if we yes, we were our relationship with our higher power, god. It was important. But what was how was? What was important was how we lived our lives and helping other people. So growing up I always had the sense of call or this sense of desire that I wanted to serve other people. I remember clearly as a little kid I may have been eight or nine years old and I said to my, I announced to my parents in the kitchen, around the kitchen table when I grow up I want to live in the mountains and work with the poor.

Speaker 1 7:29

Wow, who are you channeling?

Speaker 2 7:32

I have no idea, but you know, it's a sense of growing up and listening to saints who had done that, maybe, and so that, but that thought that was a really like that. I thought that's what you were meant to live. You were meant to live to serve other people and to help other people that we were all. We're all on this journey together and, uh, and how do we help one another along the way? I mean, that's kind of a value?

Speaker 1 7:54

Yeah, it was instilled in you through, you know, nurturing, like in the household, or do you feel like that's a key component of your soul? Did it come with you or was it something again that was nurtured in you? That's pretty amazing for a young kid to say yeah, I.

Speaker 2 8:10

I like to think that it was, that it's all of the above that I was, that there's an innate part of me that's in my ancestors all the way down the line right. Um, that has done that yeah, and back to storytelling.

Speaker 1 8:23

I was about to say that is how we pass on our heritage. But there's also an unexamined level right at which that stuff comes out, regardless. Even if you're you know it's unexamined. Your historical baggage, your ancestral trauma, all of that stuff does follow you in a pretty unexamined way.

Speaker 2 8:41

Yeah, yeah, and growing up, my family. Now, when I look back on my family, we were lower middle class. We weren't. We didn't have a lot of money. We were, you know, in some states we would be considered very poor, but my family was about love and service and that we took care of each other and really were mindful. The other thing, that's storytelling. Here's the other story.

Speaker 2 9:05

My older brother had polio when he was two years old and my mom said to me the only charity that helped her was the March of Dimes. Now, fast forward, it was like 15 years later I was born and then my younger sister was born, and so when I remember as a kid and maybe it was that same time, eight or nine years old, around the holidays, at this time my mom would walk the neighborhood door to door to collect dimes for the March of Dimes. And I remember clearly holding her hand walking around and I said why are you doing this? And she said because this organization helped me and I want to help others and support this. And so that was an imprint on my life the importance of giving back, of serving, of. You know that you're not always going to be in a position where you can control everything and you have to lean on the help of others sometimes, and even before that happens, make sure you're giving back.

Speaker 2 10:22

Right, wow, yeah, it's powerful, awesome. I love listening to her because she has this passion and fire in her and even at her age today she is still, you know, like this sense of fire, in a sense of empowering. And, in fact, the parable at the back of my book I talked it's an ancient parable story. I first heard that story from Joan Chidester about why not become fire and the way she told that story was like I wanted to jump up and jump in this fire.

Speaker 1 10:54

You know it was that empowering, so contagious and, especially at her age, being still giving a damn. You know it's so inspiring to the rest of us. But yeah, her story is similar. I think she said she just always was fixated on serving literally specifically as a nun and from seven or eight, I think she said, at a funeral, she was like who are those ladies? And I want to be like them.

Speaker 2 11:21

So I went to a Catholic grade school and a Catholic high school and then a public university and I was taught by nuns in both grade school and high school. And then when I went to the Catholic university which was public I mean not a university, excuse me, the university it was a public university but there was a Catholic center and there were nuns that were there too. But I thought they were really cool because I thought who are these women that? And I knew a lot about church history it's a very patriarchal system, but I thought these are awesome women who, kind of like Joan Chittister, keep pushing the ball like just salmon swimming upstream saying, hey, let's pay attention. Not everybody, you know, is on. You know, there's some people left behind or some people that are very poor, and we got to bring everybody along and that stayed with me.

Speaker 2 12:07

Um, I also remember another story in high school, senior year in high school, and there was a priest that taught us social justice and he said to us, as all of us, as young women at that time, he said go out and see the world. Don't just be in your bubble here in Louisville or in this Catholic bubble. Go out and see the world and let the world change you as you try to change the world. Beautiful yeah.

The Journey of Devotion and Faith

Speaker 1 12:35

Well, I think it's easy to. There's a lot of tropes and none of us know much about life in a convent and I think we assume it's a life of isolation. But it does lead me to the question sometimes there is just wisdom that you can access internally, obviously, and then there's life experience two very different things. Do you feel like there is wisdom? Again, it's kind of the idea of, like a Catholic priest doing marriage counseling when they're celibate. Well, there's some purity to right, seeing the forest for the trees, or seeing objectively without being in the trenches per se. So I actually think there's a lot of wisdom to be had when you're not in the trenches, navigating all the muck. Does that resonate with you? Is there a kind of two separate types of wisdom?

Speaker 2 13:22

Yes, yes, I think you're spot on. I think it's the wisdom of your lived experience and the wisdom of listening with your heart and soul to other people and hearing, listening time and time again and then reflecting back. I may not know, but this is what I hear. I'm you know, and then I'm learning and growing in the midst of that.

Speaker 1 13:44

Right, and so we should value. I think, culturally we might want to go back to valuing not just the wisdom of our elders, but people who have devoted their life right to nurturing their relationship with divinity. These are my words, do you know?

Speaker 1 13:58

what I mean Sure People that have chosen to devote their lives, sometimes to isolation, but to nurture that relationship with our source. And so you know, maybe that's the value of I don't know the isolation aspect of it. You know, didn't Mother Teresa said I lost my faith for decades, or something like that, Like I saw no evidence of God for decades when I was in the trenches, but I still did the work.

Speaker 2 14:26

Right, that's a great line, because sometimes people have stereotypes of nuns thinking they're always holy. They're always you know this. You know, like Whoopi Goldberg in Sister Act. It's a great movie. I love that. I'm not knocking that movie at all. I love that movie. Music's great. One of the things I learned that the nuns taught me right away, even as a kid, growing up in grade school and high school, is that your journey of, of, of your relationship with God, begins in your journey of self-awareness and that sense of. There will be doubts and you will question, and? And there they would be the first to say, oh, I always have doubts. And then I think, whoa, what you know? Like that could be mind blowing. But then you say, but I keep showing up.

Speaker 2 15:09

I keep listening and I. And then there's other times, like Mother Teresa, then it's like you, these aha moments, then you go oh, this is love, this is grace, this is I.

Speaker 2 15:19

Sometimes I only see maybe an imprint of the fingerprint of the spirit or of that or, but then there's moments or you feel this wow, there's something that happened that I know there's a power greater than myself, right, and this is holy. So growing up with nuns and then being a nun for eight years was the sense that it's a journey, and it's that sense of self-reflection, along with seeking Like what are you seeking and how are you growing in the midst of it.

Speaker 1 15:54

Beautiful. Yeah, I think those glimpses are what sustain us right. That is faith. When you just could we handle all divinity all the time? I think I don't know. In my writing I put it that way Like we see glimpses of divinity, or what I call how the universe really works right and that sustains us in our daily toil. But I don't know if we could handle all divinity all the time.

Speaker 2 16:17

I've never said that before, yeah that's a good point you have me thinking of. I studied theology as well after my undergraduate to do a master's of divinity, and I remember clearly learning about chronos, which is chronological time, ordinal time, ordinary people or counted time in our day, as opposed to kairos, which is God's time, and it's a moment I keep. I tell people remember. Do you have you ever had a moment where you got lost in that moment and you were so caught up in that moment that you were present, you were with somebody you loved so deeply that you lost track of time and I said that's a Kairos moment? And I said mindfulness is a way to say how can you help get lost and caught up in that moment by being fully present and lose track of time. Then it's like then it doesn't matter how long that moment of divinity is, because it is so there that you don't care about anything else, it's timeless and it's always available, isn't it?

Speaker 2 17:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:18

So, that's a beautiful. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 3 17:20

Oh, I was going to say when you're talking about being present, I mean I know you're talking about Kronos versus Kronos and I mean, for coming from a counseling background, I mean that's like a big thing they're always trying to teach in counseling is to be that presence. And I think when you're in, when you are fully, you know being mindful and fully present and listening to. I think that's when we're more out to listen to the other person and allow them to change us in a way that we didn't expect to be changed and therefore connect on that human level that allows us to be more accepting and not so biased or judgmental in a lot of our perspectives too.

Speaker 2 18:00

Yes, that's a great. I'm glad you mentioned that. Like another story, my senior year in high school we had to do a research paper and so I said to my parents I wanted to do a research paper on monasticism because in Louisville, kentucky, right outside of Bardstown, there's like five religious communities and one of them is the Trappist Monastery, where the monk Thomas Merton lived, and he was a writer and is one of the most prolific American theological scholars that has been honored, and that monastery in Joan Chittister, the Benedictine Monastery excuse me, no, not there the Sisters of Charity and some others, mercy Sisters, et cetera, all have monasteries. There's a Benedictine Monastery in Southern Indiana. So I took my parents with me. They wanted to go and we went and I asked to interview people, and so at the Trappist monastery they have a guest house where lay people can enter because they have strict cloister in the sense of they're behind a wall as monks, and so the monk was sitting there. We got there 1030, 11 o'clock in the morning and the monks pray nine times a day and they eat. So they're on a schedule. They're on an ordinal counted chronological schedule in their day. So the monk was very gracious.

Speaker 2 19:21

I said to him who I was and what I do. And then my parents were sitting like back behind us it was just one room and like in almost like the front door, by the lobby of that and us. It was just one room and like in almost like the front door by the lobby of that, and I'm sitting at a desk in front of him talking and he started sharing that he had visited. I told him that I was a senior in high school. I played basketball. What did I want to do?

Speaker 2 19:40

And while I was doing this term paper, and then he said well, I was in Louisville visiting one of them. Our monks were sick and in the hospital and so I went to visit him and we were watching the Notre Dame basketball game and at that weekend it was a great. I said did you see that game? It was a great game. And he's like yeah, so we had like this 20 minute conversation on basketball and the top 25 and March Madness. And I was blown away thinking, oh my gosh, this guy is so cool, he's so ordinary and yet he's willing to sit here and talk to me and this be this monk.

Speaker 2 20:10

And then my parents were like Denise, he's got to eat lunch, you're going to miss his lunch and the guy was like the monk was like it's okay, I got this, don't worry about that. And so we ended up talking through his lunch hour. I felt really bad. My mom and dad did too, and he's like it's no problem. And he was so. He was very gracious in hospitality and so ordinary in the moment that I felt this sense of connection with him. To this day I don't remember his name, but I did remember him talking, saying you know, I remember reading and learning about Thomas Merton and and making that connection, but we'd connected over basketball.

Speaker 1 20:46

And.

Speaker 2 20:47

I remember that, and so that taught me to think that what I learned in that moment as a senior in high school that has carried me to this day is that don't put God in a box, or your spirituality or your soul in a box.

Speaker 1 21:00

It's like you lay it all.

Speaker 2 21:02

Yeah, so the first step, I ask people you know, in the sense of how do I practice mindfulness? It's like pay attention to everything I ask people, you know in the sense of how do I practice mindfulness?

Mindfulness in Corporate Culture

Speaker 2 21:11

It's like pay attention to everything, be mindful, be present to everything. Now, as a nun and as the from the Catholic tradition, mindfulness is mostly more known as contemplation, and contemplation is like taking a look at everything coming at you and paying attention to all of it, and then what sticks to your heart and what is your heart responding to? What's your soul, in the gut of your being? How present are you and what does that connect to you?

Speaker 1 21:38

So yeah, I love it. Yeah, that seems like the ideal right If you can see the numinous and the profound in the everyday right. And I in my writing, I call it just bringing divinity into the moment. You don't you don't compartmentalize it, and actually I've been to synagogue quite a bit, but then Kabbalah, of course, which is mysticism, and I really love the Jewish tradition because it's not compartmentalized, it's very much part of everyday life and that's why it survived against such great odds, right.

Speaker 1 22:06

Because it's integrated into daily life. It's not something you do on Sunday right and dress up and show off your Sunday, go to meet and close and you know it's not a social event. It's very much integrated, so that's right.

Speaker 1 22:21

You started to hint at what I was going to prompt you to share with our listeners, which is the definition of mindfulness. Have we already defined it or do you think there's a little more? I guess, in terms of prefacing my question, I want to hear about your transition into the corporate world and tech specifically, but I have had my own brush with tech over the years being in the entertainment industry and I have a lot of tropes in my brain about, again, the tech culture and, specifically, central California.

Speaker 2 22:51

Yes, and.

Speaker 1 22:52

I have little, you know, probably stereotypes in my head, but I also have personal experience. So, without bringing any of those preconceived notions into the equation just yet, I do want to know what mindfulness is in a business context or a corporate context. It does seem jargony, right, and it's something very much on everybody's radar right now. But what is your definition of mindfulness? And then the second part of the question is why is that needed in the corporate world? Or why has it entered the conversation in a corporate context, if that makes sense?

Speaker 2 23:24

Sure. So I just want to let readers, listeners, know that in my book, my first line in my scent of the book is I'm a former nun working at Microsoft. So that's the tech at the time of this podcast episode and at the time of the writing of the book, and I can tell the story of how I made that pivot later. But one of the things about not only tech, but this is what I think about life is this is what I think about life is. It's like, imagine, and I went to a birthday party one time for my nieces at the time who were 13 years old, and we went to a place that had a ball pit and within a bouncy house, and life to me today is like we are all in this ball pit, bouncy house of life, where so much is coming at us at so at the speed, and tech is just like that. There's so much coming at you and you ask yourself how do I know, know when to focus on the right ball, how can I be still in the moment and let all those balls pass except the one that I need to pay attention to right now? And so, backing up mindfulness, I think, think too, like you called it a lot of tropes. I think that's the, the, the N word today for this part of our own personal development. Several years ago, the personal development word was spirituality, but I think sometimes people confuse spirituality with religion and and then then mindfulness has come in and I think that's mindfulness, is substituted for that word. That's what I thought, but again, you know, like Jon Kabat-Zinn is one of the, as a medical doctor, there's great medical evidence of the practice of mindfulness. Now I also ask people the image many people think and this is not a criticism, because I've is to if you, if you could sit, if some people think mindfulness is if you could sit for several hours and meditate. And I say, yes, I did that for when I was a nun. I don't do it today, but when the corp in the corporate life, uh, outside of being a nun, but it's like if you have time for that, that is an excellent way to practice mindfulness. So then I thought, well, how can I practice mindfulness? Again, I went back to science and I thought of physical fitness. Read where high impact interval training is. The benefits of that is just as much as a two hour workout. Also, looking at the data around mindfulness again getting lost in kairos.

Speaker 2 25:46

Timeless moments it's practicing many like a minute, sometimes 15 seconds or five minutes of focused, intentional activity, such as focused breathing, such as focused stillness, focused silence, saying being present in the room or making a coffee break and or a tea break and making a cup of tea and just holding that cup of tea and feeling the warmth and the aroma and being in just that moment for whatever time, those I call micro mindfulness moments, doing for many years and I did that even as a nun. It's that sense of feeling, you know, spiritually fit, or that sense of fitness, that sense of presence, because it's also with micro mindfulness. The other side of the hand is self-awareness and understanding what I desire in life and what is my core value in life and then making sure that I bring that to the moment, bring that to be open to what the moment will teach me and help me and shape me and how I can give back to that moment with what I desire as an example. So in the corporate world, I have worked as a program manager for the past almost 15 years at Microsoft and I learned very quickly that corporate executives are human, just like me. My dad said to me when he was in the Navy. He says I know the hierarchy the guy puts on his pants the same way I do. Denise, you treat that person with respect and listen. That was a big deal for my dad and he was saying it doesn't matter what their title is, they could be the CEO or the janitor. You treat someone else with the exact human respect and dignity because they're on this journey just like you. And that was ingrained to me since probably when I was in utero, and that was ingrained to me since probably when I was in utero. So in the corporate then I learned not to be overwhelmed or intimidated by because I work with corporate executives a lot. So that sense I worked with an incredible amount of people in my years in ministry, which was almost like I was 45 years as a church musician from since eighth grade and then eight years as a nun, but over 20 years as a liturgy, director of worship, as a theologian et cetera. So that sense of people are people and paying attention to that first and then getting the work done behind it.

Speaker 2 28:34

So I remember clearly there was a meeting that I was in with the leaders same team members. We had three back-to-back or four back-to-back meetings over and over to try to solve a technical issue in engineering requirements. And by the third meeting we were just chippy at each other and we were stressed and I knew we needed a break but we had to keep pushing to meet a deadline. So the first 15 seconds I said all right, let's everybody just stay on camera and just pause, put your, put your mic on silence, but just stay on video and just let everybody. Let's just together.

Speaker 2 29:09

I'm going to be the timekeeper but let's just take 15 seconds of silence to make sure we're all in the room to talk about this meeting. But just, let's just mentally get here just with this topic. Let's let it go, Let go of everything else that happened in the past two meetings. And I said go and I did the 15 seconds and after that one of the leaders said to me thank you. I didn't know I needed that and so I knew that those moments are sticky with people, that resonate with people. And I remember doing a project in another, with another team that I was on a couple of years ago, of how to improve a process. But then I said did you know that? I said this to my boss.

Speaker 2 29:48

They said did you know that for corporate executives you we've got like about 20 seconds to get their attention and she's like yeah, and so I remember writing a talk and giving a talk to people, to that team, about you've got, you know you've got 30 seconds to get your attention, because executive presence is that's the new currency, not money, but it is money for that. And how do you get people's attention or be attentive in the moment? So again, those are kind of examples of what I learned in corporate and really and I felt it the high stress, high stakes moments in a corporate, top corporate company, but as a program manager, people are people and I've talked with, I've been in the room with VPs and leaders and colleagues at my level.

Speaker 2 30:44

And my intention has been to offer that presence and be mindful of how we work together. And then the outcomes come. The outcomes happen.

Speaker 1 30:49

Well, that's, I guess I'm going to try to find the best way to formulate this question, but that kind of hints at yeah. One thing I wanted to ask, which is, again, a lot of tropes, right, but I think when I hear mindfulness being sort of integrated into the corporate arena again, or into best business practices, it does seem outcome focused. You know, it's for productivity really. Um, so I guess my again I'm trying to find the best way to formulate this what is the greatest need that you're filling with your work and what are you driven to impart into the corporate arena, if it's not just you know, is it? Is it mindfulness for the sake of mindfulness, to contribute to our march towards human potential is how we put it on this podcast or is it just to be mindful while making the almighty dollar? Like? What is your goal really in imparting this information? But also, what is the greatest need? Is it to be more productive in the tech field or is it an end in itself to introduce more again divinity, spirituality which is now mindfulness into daily life?

Balancing Humanity in the Corporate World

Speaker 2 32:01

That's a great question, dominic, thank you. So the first thing about let me talk about, like the sense of why I'm doing this in corporate and in regular life, the first chapter of my book, I leveraged a quote from Satya Nadala that was in one of our company. It was like a little notebook that he gave us a couple years ago on how to be a growth mindset, but he said we spend far too much time at work for it not to have deeper meaning. And that connected with me because I thought, yes, of course, mindfulness today, like you said, those tropes, we've got all the apps, we've got everything. And the one thing I noticed is that leadership, where I work, who I work with, they practice it along with me or along with others' employees. So leaders and employees are doing this together, like we're in this together, so then it doesn't feel like I'm just trying to. It doesn't feel as tropey to say you know, it's just to be productive.

Speaker 1 33:03

Do you experience resistance versus receptivity?

Speaker 2 33:06

Sometimes, sometimes, I mean, I also experienced resistance Like no, what's the meaning? I'm also working risk management as a program manager, so now, what's the meaning behind you know what's? Do we have to have this? Do we have to do risk management? And I'm like, yes, it's like the guardrails between how we do things. I mean sometimes but that's very minimal, that happens, and, yes, you run into that every now and then.

Speaker 1 33:25

Another meeting I have to go to.

Speaker 2 33:26

Exactly.

Speaker 1 33:27

Exactly.

Speaker 2 33:28

So then it's my intention is I want to make every meeting meaningful, use people's time wisely, and how I connect with others matters just as much as how productive I am. Yes, I produce results, and how I produce those results matter as much to me as anything. It goes back to the story with my dad in school, my mom, they, they teased each other. He was the um construction worker, he was a sheet metal mechanic. My mom, she called her the D, she called herself to the domestic engineer, she ran the house.

Speaker 2 33:59

So my mom was about you, showed the first side of her report card when you got, came home, and this is when you got it, paper, and she looked at the front Did you make A's or B's? Did you do your best? Showed it to my dad. He could care less about the grade you made. He turned it over to conduct, and God help you if you got in trouble for conduct. It's like because what he valued was how you treated other people. My mom valued that you did your best, and so that's my work ethic that I bring into work.

Speaker 2 34:30

And so then it's like what helps me be, um, how I treat other people, is how I be present to them, how I, how I be attentive, and not only that within my own self. How do I show up as my best self at work? Some days I don't show up at my best self. I mean, we don't. I don't. I'm a recovering perfectionist, we don't always get it right, but the sense of giving other people, giving myself and other people grace, to say I'm going to show up again tomorrow and let's do this again, or let's do this again in another meeting and let's pause. And, like I said, it was only 15 seconds and then we moved on to something else.

Productivity, Purpose, and Collective Well-Being

Speaker 1 35:04

Yeah, that shows the need right there. They didn't even realize they needed it. Virginia, I feel like you have something to say, but I just want to recap, make sure I understand what you just said, because I really liked your answer, you know, and I had no preconceived notions, but I did wonder, you know, because I've again encountered it in my own circles, where it can be jargony and it it might be for pretty superficial reasons, but what I heard in all that is, as long as we have the system that we have right, and uh, I don't know what you call it the economic structure that we have and the currency that you know, as long as the system is what it is and we're all part of this rat race, we might as well bring some humanity into it right and be our best selves, while you know, I don't know, it just seems like that I can respect, like, actually, because that contributes to the evolution is the way we put it on this podcast of our noosphere, right.

Speaker 1 36:02

So if our principles, morals, ethics, codes are going to continue to evolve. We've got to not sell out to the corporate machine, or the almighty dollar, or capitalism, call it what you want the rat race. We've got to maintain our humanity while living right in this system that we've created. Is that a good way of putting it?

Speaker 2 36:20

Yes, yes, it's a sense of yeah. It's a sense of like yeah, life as it is today is what it is today. But I may not be able to control that, but I can control how I respond and how I'm present in that rat race, in that chaos, in that ball pit.

Speaker 1 36:37

Right, I love it. Yeah, I guess the reason I'm not playing the devil's advocate. Really, I'm earnestly asking because I have encountered people using the jargon, but it doesn't really run that deep with them. It's for productivity and everyone's kind of masquerading and throwing the terminology around, but I really don't know how deeply it resonates toward the end of human potential. It's often productivity. Right and in an HR context too.

Speaker 3 37:04

Sorry, I was going to say, say what I was hearing denise when you were talking, ensuring it and um it, just kind of thinking in my terms when it comes like mental health, and you know the fact that our society definitely is a very capitalistic, individualistic, rat race society, compared to a lot of other cultures where we just, you know, from sun up to sun down, basically, you know, work ourselves to death us and the japanese yes yeah, but the japanese do put exercise and do take breaks to kind of minimize some of that they're getting, they're getting better, yeah

Speaker 3 37:39

so they've, they've got a, they're ahead of us on that part.

Speaker 3 37:43

Yeah, um, because, yeah, I mean they do it as a team and stuff, but they'll work through different martial art movements and stuff like that for breaks as a group. But at least some of the research I've seen, anyhow, but where I was going with that is, as humans, I mean, we naturally want to be part of a collective because that's how we survive, and on top of that, we also need to have purpose, and so I feel like at least what you're trying to do, denise, which is to take it from where people are using these terms and these hype words and the tropes to kind of like you know, capitalism, the almighty dollar, and you know, basically, productivity is the end result, and that's what we're looking for. It's all about. The bottom line is to say look, you know, we spend a majority of our time here in these jobs and we've got to find a way to find our purpose to where we can meet that higher need that we need, you know, on a spiritual, mental health, mindfulness level.

Speaker 1 38:49

But my mind, sorry, my mind, goes to like that's still productivity, Like this, uh, this Scrooge the Christmas Carol kind of taught us like you have to value and Trader Joe's is really at the forefront of. I guess it's called shareholder mentality, not stockholder mentality. So a healthy, happy employee is a productive one. So you know the cynical part of my brain is like it's still productivity?

Speaker 3 39:13

It is, but I think and that's where I was going, that's where I was going to go with the stomach is, I think. At least what I'm hearing is you're doing these things and, yes, the end result is still the same it's still high productivity out. But you're doing it for better reasons than just I don't give a crap about how you feel.

Speaker 2 39:34

Just get in your office, do your job, right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that's a. It's a good point and I think for both of the questions that you ask it's such a fine line because outwardly it may look like, dominic, what you said it's all about productivity, it's all about capitalism. Yes, that's the reality of working in corporate.

Speaker 2 39:50

That's the system and it's about how I show up with intention and how I treat other employees. And in fact, one of my colleagues said to me even before I wrote the book. They said Denise, I always love that when you're on a call, because I know you remind me just to slow down for a moment. And I thought yes, forget who we are.

Speaker 2 40:09

Right. And so then, that sense of of just being a mindful and the pandemic also helped us, I believe. During the pandemic, I remember clearly we at work we were just working crazy hours of you know, nonstop, like more than you know the workday. And at one meeting there was one there where one person, a colleague, came on and you know, like the first times, on Zoom calls or Teams meetings they were, you know, it was like this awkwardness of how do we, you know, figure this out? And we like to learn because it's now part of our work, everyday work life and at one point this person was you could, obviously she was in tears and she just said I'm just not at my best today. And so we just stopped as a team and said how can we just help you? Just be present to that? And we just paused and let her be and just say, hey, we just want to support you and and we'll get the work done. And so that was like I thought this was the best meaning of the entire week.

The Impact of Mindfulness in Tech

Speaker 2 41:04

Well, you know, but I thought, wow, that sense of being that attentive to our colleagues and present, that helped us, no matter how we show up giving that person grace to say it's okay, you know, um, I'm dealing. The topic was dealing with aging parents in the midst of COVID and it was like I'm dealing with that too. So then we just stopped and talked to how can we support one another in that, in that topic, as an example, you know, and and I thought, wow, we're working on, we're trying really hard to be productive, and we are being productive because we're being present and when I look back on that moment, the work got done. But what was most important to me in that moment and that experience was like I always lean back and I lean in to that experience of how to give my colleagues grace and ask for grace yeah, I was gonna say I loved what just brought up and how you, how your conversation is about aging parents, because that was kind of.

Speaker 3 41:57

The other thing that I was kind of curious about is if we're better in our cultural society, the way that that it is designed around capitalism because that's literally what it is and the productivity that we all put out as as we become more mindful in what we're doing, in our higher purpose and callings in life, I feel like by bringing that into work, allowing people to have that space to connect on those levels, I feel like we may start seeing a shift in a lot of I don't know corporations so much, but at least in the majority of the workforce maybe, to where the productivity that we are putting out is maybe more of a contribution toward a better society.

Speaker 1 42:39

It's got to affect that right. The micro affects the macro.

Speaker 2 42:42

So yeah it's like it, like, uh, building those tiny muscles in between, in your like, in your legs or arms, between the big muscles, and it has that effect of strengthening the whole yeah, if we're all little cells in this organism, right.

Speaker 1 42:57

If each cell has a more mindful approach to business, how could the product not evolve a little bit right? The product and what it's contributing to the collective.

Speaker 2 43:09

Yes. And then the other thing I think mindfulness is helping in the sense of being present. It's not only like an output is productivity, but the other output is. Its benefit is it's fighting. It's helping us manage burnout. People in corporate, I mean, I know this.

Speaker 2 43:24

I had experienced the signals and symptoms of burnout a couple of times in my career. It's like this, I know it. For me it shows up when I'm just mentally and physically exhausted and just there's no energy. And the sense of micro mindfulness one of the benefits is like I can practice that during the day. I've had a busy day, back-to-back meetings. One time I remember I counted one time I had 17 meetings in one day and I was intentional about taking the micro breaks in between and by the end of the day, yes, I was tired, but I was also energized.

Speaker 2 43:54

And when I pivoted at the end of the day to family, I was present and I thought, oh, I'm glad I did that. But then there've been other days when I'm so exhausted it's like, okay, you guys, I am going to bed. I just you know I'm not my best with pivoting to family or pivoting to work, either one. But yeah, that, that sense of it's the the other thing about and I'm bragging a little bit because I'm so proud I work with such great people and I I remember even this week like there was an org change or pivot of some leadership and it was the sense of seeing my leaders practice vulnerability and it felt very genuine Now that I find that sometimes challenging to do on a virtual call but to see that and to embrace that and to hold that while their leadership was changing and people showing their appreciation and vulnerability by crying and just holding all of that, how much they that sense of genuine love of working with colleagues and knowing that they're moving to some other role, but taking that moment to honor that.

Speaker 1 44:57

It's incredible. It's leaps and bounds, isn't it? It's a whole new model.

Speaker 2 45:01

Right, it's a whole new model, and here's what I keep hearing.

Speaker 1 45:04

I want to go back to burnout in just a minute, but I love it. You're giving us a lot of information, but there's so much to follow up on, so I want to just back up a little bit. I mean for my own growth here, because I'm having a little arc. I guess what I'm hearing over and over again is since the system is what it is and I guess it'll continue to evolve in the ways we said, right, the product might shift a little bit because each little cell in that organism is mindful, right, and then the business model changes again, I guess, toward a more shareholder mentality. So love has a. The word love has a place in these conversations. But I just keep hearing here's how we maintain our humanity, given the system is what it is right, evolving slower than we would like. Here's how we can maintain our humanity in these meetings. Does that make sense? That's what I'm hearing.

Speaker 1 45:56

I just feel like some people are going to and maybe you can confirm or deny this Like again, you probably have a little resistance. It sounds like not much, especially in the tech world, and I think Google is the big example right of this new business model where we all get to be vulnerable and human and value spirituality Although that's a bad word. We're using mindfulness right. I do think there's now examples and there are models for that. So things are evolving, but I don't know, given that some people are going to be more resistant and others are going to do it for maybe more commendable reasons, not just productivity, but valuing our collective march toward human potential. You're probably seeing all kinds of everybody has a different relationship with mindfulness. Is that fair?

Speaker 1 46:43

to say yes, but you're still driven to contribute it to the. Is that fair to say? Yes, you're still driven to contribute it to the corporate arena, and tech specifically.

Speaker 2 46:49

Yes, I'm driven to contribute it to the corporate arena, to my personal life, to my friends and family, to people I meet, hopefully, and sharing my book with other people in the different podcasts. I've spoken on One podcast on men's fitness, one on women, menopause, this one on the language of the soul. But I'm also a big proponent of find what works for you, that there is so much out there, there's so many opportunities to connect with your soul, to connect with your heart and mind and spirit and kind of the other thread running through my family and through my life as a nun is that I'm an adult child of an alcoholic and so I have been participant in adult ACOA meetings, the 12-step program, and I remember when I got my theology degree I took a course on the spirituality of Alcoholics Anonymous and the one thing that stays with me again a nun and a priest, and the one thing that stays with me again a nun and a priest taught the class. They were both recovering alcoholics and they talked about spirituality is all your energy moving in the same direction, like everything's integrated. The 12 steps came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. It's that sense of like in AA. It's like who is your power? Higher power it could be love. It could be your core value. It could be God, jesus.

Speaker 2 48:13

The point is, is that came to that journey of believing and for Alcoholics Anonymous, I remember reading this, I think, in the big book is that God is means good, orderly direction, it's all your energy flowing together in the same direction towards you believe.

Speaker 2 48:32

So like, for example, my growing up. My value, my core value was love. One of the first things in the, as a Christian, the first commandment I learned is in the from the first Testament in the Jewish tradition and the Second Testament of the Christian tradition. Of both Jesus was the first commandment is you shall love. You shall love the Lord, god, with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. And Jesus says and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And so that sense of that's my higher power, that's my power greater than myself. So that thread of love that I learned as family, that I learned in high school, that I learned in college, that I've learned in life, is what I bring to the table in my work and in my being and how I live today. But that sense of coming to believe, a power greater than yourself, beautiful.

Speaker 1 49:21

Well, that leads me to another question I had had it's kind of taking a different direction the order here but you've pretty much answered all my questions. As far as your motivation and what you hope to contribute, but also the need that exists in the corporate arena, it's all kind of making sense to me. Cart before the horse for me, you know, because I just see the big picture spiritually and, uh, you are going to see the gamut of people in different relationships with a higher power, however they conceive it. So, but I do like your everything you've said, Um, but I don't know, I guess, uh, because I've had a brushes with tech people and in entertainment there can be a left right brain standoff a little bit, and I know we're using those terms less frequently now.

Speaker 1 50:08

Right, Every task involves both hemispheres of the brain to different degrees. But is it fair to say tech people are largely left brain. Is that a generalization you would make?

Speaker 2 50:19

Gosh, it depends, you know. It depends on the job. I mean, I've worked in tech, from sales to cybersecurity to finance, to engineering, technical program managers to now HR and risk management and policy, so it depends. Beauty of working at a company like Microsoft is that they really do live and practice what they believe about. You know, um, it's the first job I've job I've had in my life where they I've received equal pay as a woman, Um, and they practice what they preach about. You know, um, it doesn't matter who you are, it's you know. We welcome everyone, and and you learn that people have different degrees, Like there's PhDs, people in the Navy, people who are former convicted felons in cyber crime.

Speaker 2 51:09

A lot of diversity and someone is a history teacher and someone is an admiral from a nuclear submarine. A couple years you have the whole gamut. So it depends on the kind of work. And so I'm in awe. I go back to a story.

Speaker 2 51:26

As a little kid I told my parents this, and even my dad when he was living, because he was still living when I got my job at Microsoft.

Speaker 2 51:33

When I was a little kid I loved to play with the little Hot Wheels cars and one of the gifts I got from my parents was this plastic fold-up mini city and when you unfolded it and it's like you could run the cars all around it and unfolded it and it's like you could run the cars all around it, and I said to my parents, I said it's like driving to Microsoft.

Speaker 2 51:46

At the time I was driving to my job for there I said it's like driving to the United Nations and I'm in that mini city driving around there, because it's just that sense of that mentality, that corporate mentality Now I also know that's not the experience of everyone's experience in corporate life but that sense of I keep thinking what can I control and how can I be present, and and I know too like the sense of left and right brain.

Navigating Tech and Artistic Collaboration

Speaker 2 52:11

But if it's not working, you know, or if it's in such a toxic environment, you know the sense of how to find the courage or to find a way to get pivot out of that and move to what you know, I'm a big proponent of find what works for you, because if it's working for you it generates this life and this energy that you can get through challenging times or you can get through um, the left and right of right brain thinking, left brain thinking and maybe people who don't buy into that, but it's like I can still be present and I and um be um, respectful, et cetera. So that's um, that's kind of the challenge, but you know, I feel very grateful. And also then there's other times when it's really hard and it's, you know, the work is overwhelming and exhausting.

Speaker 2 52:55

And then I have to pause and kind of evaluate that sense of what the other side of this, dominic, for me it's like it's the mindfulness, it's the, that sense of service and mission. The other thing behind it is my own self-reflection and self-awareness, kind of that centeredness within the soul of my being.

Speaker 1 53:13

Yeah, I guess I want to go down that rabbit hole a little more, and maybe it was. It's a false premise on my part, but you know, I guess to better explain the premise of my question, it seems to me again my exposure to people who identify as tech. You know, you'd have an artist working with a technical director on Deep Canvas, on Tarzan, for example. We had some new technology we were trying to integrate and you just always had an artist working with a techie right, and so there were definitely differences in worldview and approach and um across the board. But I guess I was thinking if you're not using the word spirituality or using mindfulness, I just was wondering if there are any generalizations one could make about. You know, do you have administrative people and production people and technicians, meaning IT people? You probably have all kinds of positions right at Microsoft.

Speaker 1 54:16

So is it Microsoft, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 54:19

Yes, it is. It's like, yes, you have left brain like artist and the tech person, uh, the engineer, uh, working together all the time too, and and uh, and as a program and as a program manager. It's like you're juggling both of those.

Speaker 1 54:35

And that's what I was wondering if you could confirm my hunch that there's a very different mentality, you know, from artists who identify as creatives, and that would be more right brain, techies, who tend to be more left brain. But one correlation that just occurred to me that now I'm inspired to pursue is, you know, if you are more quote unquote left brain, linear, logical, as opposed to being more intuitive, nonlinear, which would be right brain. Ironically, if you're linear and logical, you're going to look for structure right, and so that's rationalism actually. So do you know the word teleological, any belief system?

Speaker 2 55:11

is teleological.

Speaker 1 55:12

So, ironically, it seems like tech people could be more faith-based or more spirituality or religion-based or simply receptive to mindfulness, because they have that teleological slant or bent. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 55:28

Yes, it does. I'm a musician and mathematics is a very. Music is about math, counting numbers, and mathematics is a very spiritual discipline.

Speaker 1 55:39

Yeah, I tend to think of artists as being generally more spiritual, in an earthy humanity sort of way. But ironically, teleology would belong to the left brain. So anyway, just looking for generalizations here. Sorry for that.

Speaker 2 55:53

No, dominic. This is great Because the other thing here's the other thing I love Because the premise that Satya Nidala, when he began over 10 years ago, is like the sense of growth mindset leveraging Carolyn Dweck's book on mindset over 10 years ago is like the sense of growth mindset leveraging Carolyn Dweck's book on mindset. And even today we have what's. What is top of mind even today with AI and everything else is storytelling, regardless if you are an engineer or on the artist side of working in communications and marketing. I have a.

Speaker 2 56:22

I clearly remember when I was in cybersecurity. One time I was driving and leading some governance meetings and meetings with executives and I was also the liaison with engineering coming to bring an issue or something and we had a template of slides and they would come in first and I said you got to, let's meet before that you go into talk to an executive. And I remember when several engineers come in and they go right into all the details and I say stop, stop. You know it's like you got to start with a story. Tell something about the day, why is this data so important?

Speaker 2 56:53

So then it's like then it made me change my template to the first slide is just a summary slide, but I said you got to start with a story because I said all these guys and women leaders they are juggling all these color balls in their head they come into the room and at this time we were meeting in the office and I said you got to get their attention to say, hey, today we need to focus on the blue ball, and the blue ball is about X data and it's impacting these customers and let me dive into this number. And so then they got it. So it's like, okay, so let me take all of my life. I said you just take all your logic and bubble it up. What's the one or two things you want to get their attention with? And that worked, you know, like as an example of of of getting the left brain and the right brain to to kind of um story.

Speaker 1 57:41

I'm so glad you traced it back to story, because that is, yes, it's story it is. That's the umbrella under which, that's where the common ground is.

Speaker 3 57:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 57:48

So when you had the IT people working with the artist on a single scene, the goal is to tell a good story, right. But what you just described also hints at again, it can be a buzzword, and that is a big premise of my book too. We all know, right, you change minds by touching hearts. And there's a whole chemical basis for why storytelling. You learn more in the narrative realm than the didactic. You're more receptive to even opening your pocketbook, right, if you're engaged in a story and all the chemicals, the dopamine and the you know, all the euphoric chemicals are flowing. There's a trust, there's a little more trust in a little tribal bonding. That goes on. So.

Speaker 1 58:26

But when I heard the buzzword story for opening a pocketbook, I I don't respect it quite as much as I want to tell an inspired story that the universe solicited from me for the sole purpose of contributing it back to the collective for our march toward human potential. Like I am a snob, I'm an elist and I feel like there's a huge difference between the end game Do you know what I mean the inspiration that actually comes from the universe itself, and then using story as a tool for propaganda or opening a pocketbook, you know? So I guess I have my own hangups about it. But the reason I wanted to explore some of these nuances like left right brain mentality is I am I've got one foot in AI. You know you got to evolve or die and develop a relationship with it. And so I do have a very dear friend who's been on this podcast, virginia, who is at the forefront of finding an ethical use of AI, where artists are compensated and they receive their royalties.

Speaker 1 59:26

In other words, you're not scraping the entire internet for intellectual property. You're taking licensed material provided to you by an artist who is willing to let people scrape that database, and so it's got to be done. And I think it's kind of like digital download. It was the wild wild west at one point and then we slowly learned to regulate it. So this has to happen and I'm on board. I'm part of this. I'm on the ground floor of this new ethical way of allowing AI to compensate artists fairly. But it's tricky, you know, and I do see him, because he's a partner in this venture really having major soundoffs with tech people who may not have the same worldview or value system that he has. So I'm kind of seeing it up close and personal, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 1:00:12

Yes, yes, and that is a huge challenge, I think, in today with AI as well, and I know there are companies it's not just Microsoft, but there are other companies that are. What helps me is the sense of that. I see it in my lived experience at work. You know that Microsoft is intentional about ethical AI and about diversity and inclusion, about equal pay, equal treatment, and it is reflected in the work. That and I've experienced it and I know other companies do that too and so that sense of being doing this with intention and purpose and then the output of that, what I know is that when you can see one of some of their commercials and if I've cried at some commercials because I've, like, I've seen in, like Microsoft or Google or even Apple about they're committed to making a difference.

Speaker 2 1:01:04

Yes, it's about the money, the revenue, yes, but this, this moment, was about including, like the commercial. I remember Microsoft was when the Xbox device for those who have different abilities, that they could use a device and like it's like these kids gaming and one kid who was in a wheelchair was included and was able like when it became one of the top gamers, and it was just a story and in the story. It was what moved me and I thought wow, you know, so it's, it's, it is that journey.

Speaker 1 1:01:38

That's almost an example of what we were hinting at earlier, which is the product is affected by the culture right, the product shifts and it is more about diversity and inclusion. Now, I love that. Yeah, I'm not bagging on anybody.

Speaker 2 1:01:51

I know, but you've got to. This is great. It's like you're cause you're asking those questions and those are so spot on.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

Yeah, they're just the logical questions to me, because I'm an artist, you know, and I value the contribution as an end in itself, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 1:02:06

And I just kind of smell this whole productivity idea a mile away, and I will let myself off the hook a little bit and say you know, for years we've been hearing about political correctness, right, and you can't say that anymore. You just say woke, right. And so I think the equivalent in business is best practices. So a cynic is going to come along and say, well, yeah, human resources is making me go to another meeting because it's politically correct, right, or it's best practices to do A, b, c and D, and I traditionally would say a cynic would say, well, they're just jumping on the bandwagon because it's politically correct, and I would always say, okay, but it's better than not. It's still progress, isn't it?

Speaker 2 1:02:50

That's right.

Speaker 1 1:02:52

Even if mindfulness or diversity and inclusion any of these woke concepts are trendy, it's still better than not, it's still progress, and again you're going to have the whole gamut of people that feel it in their bones and other people that are just trying to survive and conform. I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Speaker 2 1:03:11

No, and I would even take a step back from even using the language of diversity and inclusion, or even woke, but just to say just a practice of human decency and kindness and respect.

Speaker 1 1:03:21

Right, virginia has heard on this podcast, cause I'm part of the LGBTQ community community and I had a fellow filmmaker on who's a queer filmmaker, and we both agreed like, um, you know, when you hear tolerance or you hear normalization, right, we're trying to normalize it. We both laughed and said, well, we're really just trying to get you to be human, frankly.

Exploring Purpose and Service in Life

Speaker 3 1:03:45

So well, I was gonna say another way to look at it too is it's the opportunity for growth rather than the permanent limitation. So, shifting from a fixed mindset, and looking at them as obstacles that are like these, barriers, to a perspective where we're trying to find that ability to change, adapt and improve as the human people that we are.

Speaker 1 1:04:07

The human people, the human people that we are, because there's some that aren't. We're all human, sorry that came out wrong.

Speaker 3 1:04:14

But yes, you know to our human potential is what I was looking for I love it, but you know that's. I mean honestly, I mean I think, and the more we do that, and then I'm going to go Pollyanna on you right now.

Speaker 3 1:04:29

Thanks for the warning and let my nerd come out a little bit. But you know, it's probably why I was such a huge fan of like the show Star Trek growing up as a kid, because that's literally what Star Trek was about. That was the whole point behind Gene Roddenberry was. You know, we can still do these things and find purpose and meaning in the things we love doing, but the output doesn't have to be capitalism anymore, it's just to improve. You know, mankind. And then eventually, obviously, you know everybody in the universe says they venture out into space. But you get the idea. I mean, that's why money isn't there on. You know, watch the star trek world because they've realized I just go do this job because I know it's benefiting human. You know humanity, it's not about I. I made, you know, a hundred thousand plus this year I do the job because I have a purpose.

Speaker 1 1:05:18

Yeah, yeah, well that came up earlier, virginia you mentioned we all at some point. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you mentioned the idea of purpose and, and I guess I'm just taking a real meta view of all of this, because one could say all spiritual practices or philosophic traditions are designed. I mean, I could ask you guys, what's your understanding? But my understanding is to limit suffering in life and, um, sometimes it's tranquility, inner peace, contentment, well-being. We're just kind of wanting to live a happy life, you know. But there is the idea of serving something greater than yourself, right, and that would be humanity, but anyway, that's I guess. When I was trying to wrap my brain around the value in the corporate arena of mindfulness, I thought, well, it can be productivity-based or it can be service, and I think it sounds like a balance to me. So far right, and I don't know, I think it's progress any way you slice it. I'm clearly working out my own views on all this as we speak.

Speaker 2 1:06:21

Yeah, so the nuns that I was a member of. I was a member of the Religious of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and they were RSCJ that's the French letters for that order and they were founded in the 1800s in France after the revolution, the French revolution, and the illiteracy among boys and girls was at like over 85, 95%. And the nun who founded that community, she said if I could change, if I could educate for the sake of being an educator, for the sake of one child, to make a difference in their life, then I would start this community and do it. And so that was sort of the the. The mindset of how I lived as a nun with the other nuns is that we were in service for the sake of one person to make a difference for one.

Speaker 2 1:07:14

And it sort of. Then it realized that we have this huge mission to love and to serve. But how does that get played out?

Speaker 1 1:07:22

It's can I? I think you have to take a grassroots view of it right, especially artists that are just trying to be loved and trying to get their work out there. You always settle on. If I change one person's life right on an island near whatever Greenland, then my job is done. You have to kind of look at it at that level, I think.

Speaker 2 1:07:41

Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:07:43

And the other?

Speaker 2 1:07:44

element as nuns that you know the we're nuns are not that there's not that many of them around, you know, but there I consider like we're like. When I was a nun, I thought of myself as like we're like a salmon swimming upstream and just to remind people of saying there's something more important about life than the capitalistic rat race. Then how do you want to live your life? And that came across during the pandemic, when I was sitting and reflecting, thinking that we were going to be out of work for about off, working from home for about two weeks and then be back to work and everything would be normal.

Exploring Purpose and Overcoming Fear

Speaker 2 1:08:15

And then it's like three or four years later, and during that time and this is the question that nudged me, that was also the premise of me writing my book was, I said, life keeps nudging me with this question as an ordinary person, how will you spend your everyday life doing extraordinary, meaningful work with the time you have left? And so, again, that sense of chronological time is limited, like we're going to. We only have 24 hours in a day. We will be working in a corporate environment for so many years. We have to pivot to something else at some point in our career, and then we have a finite moment at the end time of how we are here on earth. So, however long that runway is, we have no control of that. How do we make the most of the moments we have to live so that then it becomes these Kairos moments that build up?

Speaker 1 1:09:13

I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually have that quote written down, that I heard it in another podcast and it was one of my prompts and you just took the words out of my mouth. That's okay, but I want to follow up and say is that question so life keeps nudging me with this question how will you spend the rest of your life doing extraordinary, meaningful see? We could explore these words to meaningful work with the time you have left. My question is do you find that to be a universal question? I've had my brush with death, so everything was put on the front burner in terms of purpose. A lot of our guests have really had that come to Jesus moment. Sorry for that.

Speaker 1 1:09:50

Yeah it's kind of a similar question.

Speaker 2 1:09:53

I think Right.

Speaker 1 1:09:54

Well, my question to you is do you find it to be universal? Is it a matter of time? Does it take that existential crisis or that dark night of the soul to really light that fire? Do you find it happens sooner or later to everybody, or not?

Speaker 2 1:10:08

So I look at it as when I reflect back over my life, there were moments that I was asking that question, struggling or asking that question. At certain times of being in poor health, I haven't had a knock on wood like a sense of the near death experience, but I've had experiences where, oh my gosh, as a risk manager, this could have been really bad, this could have gone really bad. Now what? Or I've also known people who says, like Denise, I haven't had that, but I said but have you been reflecting on your life? It's like what do I want to do? Or do you feel this sometimes nudging within you to say, or this itching that maybe I'm meant to do something else? So I think we may be asked that question in different ways or different experiences. I also love the quote by Mark Twain. I shared it with one of my nephews who celebrated his birthday recently and Mark Twain said you have two birthdays the first is the day you were born and the second is you figure when you figure out why, right.

Speaker 1 1:11:08

And.

Speaker 2 1:11:08

I like that's like you figure out your purpose. And so then I thought yeah. I thought I knew what my purpose was at 20 and at 30, maybe it changed in it. Now it's different, but there's threads of still things that thread all that together and it's like purpose to me is not like one and done.

Speaker 2 1:11:24

I found my purpose and here's what I'm done and but it's like I'm I'm still learning and, in fact, like my mom will be 98 this year. She lives in assisted living and two years ago she fell and broke her back and was on like dying and at some point she within her said I, I'm not ready yet.

Speaker 2 1:11:43

And so she decided to go. She went to a rehab hospital, was really reluctant to go to a nursing home but went to assisted living and now she's like a cat with nine lives thriving. You know, it's like, it's beautiful to see her like, and then she's like. She is so astute of like she reads everything. She has read practically every book in the library at the assisted living and has this curious mindset at 98.

Speaker 1 1:12:08

Beautiful.

Speaker 3 1:12:09

And.

Speaker 2 1:12:09

I thought, so she's still figuring out her purpose.

Speaker 1 1:12:12

She's. That's an inspiration to me, I joke. You know, joan Shidister and Jane Fonda, people that are still relevant, still intellectually curious, get me up every morning. So did she redefine her own sense of purpose, or did it? Was it just this inclination?

Speaker 2 1:12:28

to be intellectually curious. Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:12:31

But did she consciously say I'm not done yet, here's my new purpose.

Speaker 2 1:12:34

Or is it just that fire of being intellectually curious and I think it was both the fire to keep living and then to say I I'm I'm willing to do this, go this route, because the current route I'm going is it will lead to death.

Speaker 1 1:12:48

Well, maybe I guess that's what I was hinting at earlier. It does seem like again, sometimes it seems selfish, but contentment, or inner peace, or well-being seems to be the goal of a lot of, again, spirituality, religion, philosophic traditions. But I would I don't know also say that contentment is does lie in a sense of purpose, right, and only by contributing, only by giving, do we feel fulfilled. So yeah.

Speaker 2 1:13:17

And the other thing, dominic, I think too, is, if you don't you mentioned this like if you don't compartmentalize your life, if you're open to everything, that when the challenge comes, when, like the day, you're not at your best and your life is more like a heartbeat rather than a flat line high, flat line high or flat line low on a path, then you embrace that to say what can? There's a spiritual element in, in the midst of it all, within me and in that experience, and how can I get through this? How can I learn from this? How can I be reshaped? Maybe I need to think differently, as, as an example of of experiencing something, a trial or tribulation, but it's like, embrace it, like. It's like embrace it all, uh, and and work through it all and let go and then and say this is working for me, let's do it, this is working for me, let's do that. And having like those, this uh community of you know, like um, I think, virginia, you said that we were, we live in community.

Speaker 2 1:14:20

So who's your community of colleagues, of friends, of family that help you live in the, in the spiritual, in your own growth and journey of your self-awareness, your love, your service, whatever that is, that inner peace that you're seeking. What is it you are seeking? What is the desire of your heart? And how is that? How are you engaging the world and how is the world engaging you in living that out?

Speaker 1 1:14:48

Yeah, and you mentioned the being in a ball pit inside of a bouncy house. I love that and that's why we we you know, I think a lot of us don't take the time to really even examine any of that, but I do think that's why it takes a health crisis sometimes, or an existential crisis, to light that fire because of all the distractions.

Speaker 3 1:15:10

Well. I was going to say that, and even sometimes with people. I think it's the fear, the fear of change. I know I've mentioned before in other episodes, and I've just heard you say that you know you come to those crossroads where things are changing and you don't like the change, and so you're, you know, kind of have an adverse reaction to it.

Speaker 1 1:15:30

Kind of like the political landscape at the moment right more malleable or not as adverse, you know to change.

Speaker 3 1:15:35

or or, like you know, I'm okay with not being okay, you know, and and are able to admit those things to ourselves. You know you do have people who can't do that and they, they want to do that, they just don't know how. And so I think it does take, like you said, dominic, sometimes a life or death, you know, you know type experience to go.

Speaker 1 1:16:17

How about to dissolve the ego? I mean, that's what a lot of we've been saying here is is just relinquish mind and ego, and that's how you right center and get aligned with your source.

Speaker 2 1:16:29

Yes, yes, that, like Dominic in Virginia, you said something too. I think fear has great power over us. I mean, it can have great power that you know to be paralyzed by fear. And, um, I learned this from um, uh, a therapist I had for a while, and he's a Buddhist, uh therapist and uh practiced uh Buddhism. And he said courage, you take fear along for the ride. And it's like you know it's just taking the next step.

Speaker 1 1:16:59

Yeah, it's not pretending it doesn't exist. It's understanding the value of fear, right.

Speaker 2 1:17:03

Exactly, appreciating it, acknowledge it and it just, and courage is bringing fear along.

Speaker 1 1:17:09

And.

Speaker 2 1:17:10

I thought, yes, and so I, when I face worry I mean I'm also Irish and English, so I worry a lot and my job is a risk manager and that sense of okay, am I fearful, and again acknowledging it, being present to it. And then it's almost like this mental self-talk because I also tell people I'm a recovering perfectionist.

Speaker 2 1:17:36

It's like I mentally say fear is here in the room. I'm going to turn the volume down a little bit and I know the next step I need to take and I'm scared to death but I'm going to take this next step.

Speaker 1 1:17:48

You know the self-talk I would argue that fear is well, hope and fear that's life, isn't it? Yes, and actually you could replace hope with love. Either you're seeing through the eyes of love or you're operating unexamined on your base fears. But I do think it's very damaging. I mean, look at the mess we're in. It's all fear-based. You can actually trace it back to fear every step of the way, Right, but you know, I'm I was never in touch with that word. I just thought, well, I don't operate on fear, I it's not even in my vocabulary, Like I never had a relationship with fear. But then I realized the reason it's not in your vocabulary is because it's completely unexamined, right. So no, nobody's exempt. We all, right and our. I think when we feel unsafe, we operate out of fear, and then, when our needs are met and we feel secure and safe, we're able to rise above that.

Speaker 3 1:18:42

I loved what you just said about having a relationship with fear, and that's really what it is. It's discovering that relationship, realizing fear is there and it's okay. You can hold its hand and together move forward, like you said, denise, and continuing that forward, you know momentum Well because it has value.

Speaker 1 1:19:00

right? If you look at the fight or flight instinct, I think we like to rise above our base instincts, but if we can, it goes along with embracing the shadow, as we often talk about on here. Right, virginia, the way you embrace the shadow is you don't demonize all of your instincts, because they have value, even propriety, jealousy, some of these ugly things that arise in us, instead of demonizing them and trying to rise above them, because then you never look them in the face, right? Never look jealousy in the eye. If you can understand the evolutionary theory level of it and the value of it, then you can be freed from it. I think sometimes we don't want to look at our shadow, the shadow side of humanity, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 1:19:39

Yeah, I'm listening to both of you talk. I was thinking of the um a couple of years ago um visiting Disneyland. I believe I bought the box set of, which is one of my favorite movies inside out.

Speaker 2 1:19:52

And it was the box set of all the children's books of of all the emotions and fear was one of my favorite movies Inside Out, and it was the box set of all the children's books of all the emotions and fear was one of them and they are the most read books in our house and the sense of what I liked about those books is that they talk about all of the emotions but then to see the value of fear, you know keeping us safe et cetera.

Speaker 2 1:20:09

And so, talking about the positive of fear or anger or um, joy or sadness, or disgust, um, and the other thing is that, uh, that other side of fear is, is that sometimes we're afraid. Uh, that, you know, is the vulnerability and and we live in a culture and that vulnerability is not, is frowned upon, and you got to be strong and be productive right, right, right.

Speaker 1 1:20:32

Well, it's the Western we're built on manifest destiny. Right, the Westward movement and we're, we're um overcomers, and then the dust bowl, like our whole cultural identity in this country anyway. Right Is about being overcomers and being the Marlboro man and, uh, John Wayne and a number of other characters.

Speaker 2 1:20:51

Right, Totally, and so that sense of the willingness to be vulnerable and what I also love about in the sense of where I work, is to and I see it modeled for me in leadership I'm very fortunate to be in a role and a position where I'm in great leadership, that I see vulnerability and servant leadership leading as opposed to fear, and this is the way we got to do it. This is the way we got to do it Like this. This is the way we got to do it. Fixed mentality, it's. It's the same. Yep, we're scared. Well, also the value.

Speaker 1 1:21:24

Sorry, couldn't the value of fear also be? It demonstrates your attachments. If you're fearful for a lot, you know that you might lose a loved one. That is the positive side, because it shows your interconnectivity. And to give a shout out uh, do you guys know? Uh, starsky and Hutch, he was also in.

Speaker 2 1:21:44

Michael.

Speaker 1 1:21:44

Glazer.

Intention Setting and Inspired Work

Speaker 1 1:21:45

Yeah, paul Michael Glazer wrote a really great book on fear and I actually illustrated it. I don't know why I couldn't come up with his name, but Paul Michael Glazer. You may know his wife was one of the first people that contracted or actually the baby contracted AIDS in the birth canal and he lost both of them. So he dealt with a lot of fear and anyway, he has a beautiful book called Crystallia about the value of fear and I do think it sort of hints at that, like fear is often because you have a strong affinity or attachment or love for somebody. Anyway, check it out. I did the end papers and then I colorized. Actually it's all coming full circle. The guy with the AI operation that I mentioned, he did the line drawings and then I painted them.

Speaker 2 1:22:28

This is the best of podcasts. Why I love listening to podcasts is because then I get a book list of books I want to read. So thank you.

Speaker 1 1:22:36

So I just keep penciling that in. If you don't mind, we'll put that in the episode description too. It is related to a lot of what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 1:22:42

Yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. Thank you.

Speaker 3 1:22:46

And I was going to say too, fear is also a way for us to basically, I guess, life, giving us the reset button, it helps us reset because it makes us refocus.

Speaker 2 1:22:56

Yeah, and if I could just add to bringing that to the around, mindfulness is that. One of the one of the rituals that I do every morning and just when I wake up is I I wake up and I sit up in bed and then I just take a few moments to breathe and then I practice just this moment of gratitude that I'm alive, I get to live this day and, mindful of how I'm feeling, If I'm worried or afraid, I set my intention that right at that moment and to say I will either face my fear today or whatever that emotion is, and practice whatever. So it's that sense of like. This past week I've had an incredibly busy week. It was slammed with meetings back to back and my intention and focus was I know I may feel overwhelmed by the volume of work I have to do my intention today is to focus on one task at a time, on one task at a time and and surprisingly, it was a busy week, very intense, and I felt energized at the end of each day.

Speaker 1 1:24:02

That's come up for me today too. You mentioned burnout a lot and again another word I was not in touch with. I didn't mean anything to me because I always identified as somebody who committed and did my best and um, but of course I was burning out and didn't know it. It just wasn't in my vocabulary and I won't go into that too much. But I think that, um, inspired work is very different than drudgery.

Speaker 1 1:24:25

Right so my daddy taught me well in that yeah, you just commit to what you've committed to and you give it a hundred percent, and that's actually how you change your position in life, your status, you know. Whatever, however, you define success. That's how you get there is by doing your best, whether, in my case, it was wearing a polyester hat and we're, you know, serving tacos adult taco you just do your best. But I just feel like we have the agency at every stage in life to make it inspired work and not drudgery, right, right. And even if it seems like drudgery, you still give it a hundred percent and that's how you get to the next level. That's how I avoided burnout until I didn't.

Speaker 2 1:25:05

Yeah, it was that sense of setting my intention each day and say I'm, whatever I do I'm going to do with purpose and on purpose and and because and because I find that energizing and it's that sense of, and it's amazing when I can see that happen in my own life or see other people that happen to like give you could tell, like public speaking or leading to me.

Setting Intentions and Habit Stacking

Speaker 2 1:25:26

They're giving everything they have and they come away from it and they are so energized. Or they're talking about their work and doing something to help technology and you see them light up in what they're saying and it could be something as boring as tiddlywinks or counting tax numbers or something Right, and no critique to those tax accountants. But you see people light up and be passionate about what they're doing and I thought, wow. And then a lot of them are friends of mine and I said, how do you deal with burnout? And they're kind of like it's like I just make sure I'm focused on what I love to do and if I have to do the dull and boring, I have to get there. I set it on my calendar, put chunks of time, but I do things in between to regenerate my spirit.

Speaker 1 1:26:10

I'm glad you mentioned intention, because that came up a lot in a few podcasts that I listened to. Abraham Hicks talks about segment intending. As I go into that meeting set my intentions, you know, again to just see the humanity and the person across the table from me, or to bring love into this equation. So I love if you could talk a little more about the role of intention setting, but also the journaling idea. A gratitude journal seems like a great thing to do. I'm not that good at doing it consistently, but maybe talk a little bit about the journaling and then the intending. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're setting your intentions. And then another thing you hinted at is this idea of habit stacking. I think I got it, but maybe you could talk about that term a little bit. What is habit stacking?

Speaker 2 1:27:00

Okay, great, those are a great question.

Speaker 2 1:27:01

So first of all, about intention. One of the quotes I have in my book is from Thomas Merton, and I found that from a friend of mine who was a priest that I worked with and he said that in his listening and reading of Thomas Merton, thomas Merton asked a question for himself, but it was also for all of us. What do I think of this? What do I want for my life and why am I not there? And for me, intention is kind of helping you fill in the gap in the gap. And what I learned about intention really clearly was my first um um. In the early years of my life as a nun, I entered the phase, what's called the novitiate, where it was like a time where all you, instead of focusing on a ministry, all you focused on was like how to be a nun. And one of my, the nun who was my novice director her name was um Rosemary, sister Rosemary, and I remember going to her and saying I'm really scared about doing this. You know, it's like I don't know what it's like being a nun and she sort of like laughed and hugged me. She says I'm scared too because I'm his first time. I'm a novice director, so let's do this together. But I said to her you know and I tell the story in my book I said I've not lived this way of life before, so I'm so much as new and I'm not sure how to begin or how do I do this. And you know, she just said, just take a moment to breathe. You don't have to have it figured out all right now. And then she said, before you begin your day praying or even serving other people, take some time reflecting on what you truly desire for the day, going back to what is your intention and, before anything else, set your intention and that will guide your actions throughout the day and everything else will kind of fall into place. And so, like what you said is like, set your intention. Now, one way you can do this is through journaling.

Speaker 2 1:28:48

Now, I've been journaling since high school. So I have volumes of binders of journals since high school and there's various ways to journal and many people say, gosh, I don't write a lot, I don't like to write. There's more than one way to journal and technology can help us do that. So on my phone I have a day one journal app. So my hobby is also photography, landscape photography so I make a commitment to take photos. I take photos every day and I have committed over now I'm going on two years now is to take one photo a day. That speaks my intention for the day and with the and I use what's called the day one journal app.

Speaker 2 1:29:28

Well, the great thing about the day one journal app is like, at the end of the year or the end of the month, you can print that in a book, and so I know I have a physical journal book that I can look back, and I printed it one year, um, last year, which was also one of the most stressful, difficult works I've had at work, and I looked back in that flip through that journal and I thought, wait a minute, it wasn't totally stressful. There was really moments of meaning and energy that carry, so it was like this reflection of going I. That was a very powerful year, depending on the lens. So there's more than one way to journal. And the other thing is people who haven't journaled.

Speaker 2 1:30:01

I said I use also a commonplace notebook. I carry a notebook with me Um and um, like a Mola skinny notebook or, um, I think it's lectern notebook, um, that I may not be pronouncing that right in German Um, and I just jot down like bullet points of journaling at the end of the day, then I journal it's like what were all those insights today? And then if you do that, even if you do bullet points or even one word a day and over, say, two weeks, you go back and look at that. You see a pattern in your life.

Speaker 1 1:30:35

And that helps you Well.

Speaker 2 1:30:35

Hopefully you see growth too, and you see growth or if not, you say, well, maybe I need to think differently If I'm griping about this one aspect about my life all the time.

Speaker 1 1:30:44

Well, you see themes. I know there's been themes that have recurred my entire life, and sometimes those are peptide addictions. You can actually get to the bottom of.

Speaker 2 1:30:53

Yeah, and then, speaking of what you mentioned is this is tied to habit stacking but also it's like, if I usually do this when I am very stressed about work or something like that, is that I set my intention in the moment. What do I if I have a difficult meeting, sometimes with people that may rub me the wrong way? Or it's like, oh, I got to share some bad news with some bad news with this team, cause we can't deliver what, what we need to. But how do we tell that story? I set my intention before that meeting and then afterwards I just spend a minute to reflect on that.

Speaker 1 1:31:23

Is it specific or is it more like I'm just going to be my best self in this room? Or again, for me it's always like love, uh, nothing is worth conflict. So I'm going to get through this because actually more important than making the deal is feeling good about myself and not having toxic feelings afterwards Right, but also bringing out the best in the other person. But is it a specific intention or is it just like I'm going to breathe and be my best self and bring everything to the table? You know?

Speaker 2 1:31:51

And I can say yes to both, because it depends on the situation, or it could be I am. Every meeting today. I'm going to bring love and service and listen, with love as my mindset. That's why I ask, because that always seems like the bottom line.

Speaker 1 1:32:05

It's always the bottom line, and that's similar to what we said a moment ago, which is I'm going to quiet the mental chatter right and get rid of ego as best I can in this moment, I feel like it always comes down to that.

Speaker 2 1:32:18

Yes, and I also want to say and as a nun in the spiritual life I learned to like the nuns would say to me like also, what is it you truly desire in your heart? And be specific, you know and and what does that look like for you? And and then to put that out there because it's like you know, they would always say you know, be careful what you pray for, because you just might get it and it's like that you know, and I thought, well, I didn't you know when I said you know.

Speaker 2 1:32:43

so it's kind of a both and Right.

Speaker 1 1:32:45

Well, and another thing I've heard, and I'm not going to remember who said it. It was probably on Oprah's podcast podcast, but rather than. Maybe it was Michael Beckwith. Rather than saying what do I want to be doing in five years, ask who do I want to be in five years? Right, and so there's some value to being specific at times, I think, and there's value to being general. If you're really far from your envisioned goal and you can't see the forest for the trees, it's probably better to be general and just say, actually, who do I want to be? I want to be tranquil, content, feel inner peace, feel safe, whatever it is. And then the details the perfect job. Do you know what I mean? We'll line up. If you're so far from that goal of again being tranquil and you decide, oh, I want this job with this pay rate in this location, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. So maybe isn't there value to being general sometimes.

Speaker 2 1:33:38

There is, I mean, like you said, just the, the, depending on the circumstance, how you're feeling, you know, and in that moment it's, it's been, it's the sense of you. What I hear you say, dominic, is like the sense to be open and present and then, when you're, you have that, you feel that flexibility, to like, that pliability to, to engage in the moment.

Speaker 1 1:34:02

Well, isn't that similar to saying let me do your will, yes, saying to God, let me do your will. That's where we are, but there's a lot of faith in that too, right, do you know, marianne Williamson?

Speaker 2 1:34:14

Yes, again, I don't know what your beliefs are.

Speaker 1 1:34:18

I love her, but she'll say, like you know, people tend to ask should I live a happy life or should I serve? Sorry, Virginia, you've heard me say this before, as if they're mutually exclusive right.

Speaker 1 1:34:32

Should I live a happy life, or should I serve? And so we said a moment ago actually, contentment is in service for most of us and a sense of purpose, right? But she also said, you know she had somebody ask her well, what if God wants me to be an accountant, If I surrender and say, let me do thy will, what if that is being an accountant? And her answer was like why would he do that? You suck at math. He gave you your gifts to begin with, Cause I guess this person wanted to be a singer, songwriter and she's like. God gave you those gifts to begin with and you suck at math. Why would he, you know? So people tend to build up these scenarios in their head and make them mutually exclusive, Right.

Speaker 2 1:35:13

Yeah, and then fear gets in the way and then you're stuck in the spinning of of what you truly desire and living. That, yeah, I. People ask me like, well, what books do I read about spirituality? And I said I have. I like my music list. It is so eclectic and it's all all across the board and it's the sense of just being open and not compartmentalizing our lives, that being open to what can I learn today that will help me love and serve other people tomorrow? You know that's a mindset.

Speaker 1 1:35:51

I'm getting a sense that lifestyle has carried over, or do you feel like the grace and the compassion is a product of having been, I keep wanting to say, in the convent?

Speaker 2 1:36:02

Yeah, that's fine, that's okay. No, it's like it's amazing that since a cloister the irony is from the outside people think, oh, you're like locked in, away from the world. The reality is and I didn't live in a cloistered life I lived in a convent where we lived at a house in a suburb in a city and I served at a church or at a school and walked among lay people. I didn't wear a habit or anything. I had a cross that symbolized who the community I belonged to, that I wore either as a lapel pin on my um uh jacket or uh uh on a jewelry necklace um, wear that. And so it was being immersed in the world. But if I would and sometimes I would go to like a Benedictine monastery on retreat just to like, uh, for retreat, just to kind of recenter, be silent, be still.

Speaker 1 1:36:51

There's one on my blog, actually, Uh be still listen.

Speaker 2 1:36:58

There's one on my blog actually. Uh, it's a retreat for monks, I think. Yeah, yeah, and the reality is you listen and talk to them. They are the most fully aware of what's going on in the world. If you want to go know what else is going on in the world, go talk to a monk in a monastery. They are very well educated and very well informed and you think how do you know that? Like they read everything, they, you, they have access to technology and be mindful, and then the sense, and then they're also present.

Speaker 1 1:37:20

Right.

Speaker 2 1:37:22

And that so it's like, can you practice so I might you know that sense of helping others find stillness? You can find stillness in your life. And going back to habit stacking, it's like I'm going to start every meeting with 15 seconds of silence. I had one of my nieces tell me that, um, she read my book and she's a nurse, uh, and she said we had a meeting and I started that this week and it was like the best thing that for all of us that we took 15 seconds of silence before we jumped into all the stuff that we needed to do.

Speaker 1 1:37:51

Well, I feel like that sacredness and um, what's the other word, I guess. Yeah, nothing seems to be sacred.

Speaker 2 1:37:59

I was in a wonder as well.

Speaker 1 1:38:02

I was thinking ritual.

Cultivating Intention and Connection in Relationships

Speaker 1 1:38:05

Well, yeah, and so my quickly. I was in a Del Taco waiting to get my haircut. I don't often eat a Del Taco, but I had no choice so I was, and this Latino family held hands and said grace over their tacos. It brought a tear to my eye. This gets so little. There's so little ritual, as you said, virginia, but also very, so few things are sacred these days those moments. Right, we can find those moments.

Speaker 1 1:38:28

And I love what you said about taking pictures, cause here I am an artist. I've always kept a journal because I'm a writer. So I feel very blessed that the creative process for me is church, you know, and I get those opportunities to again limit the mental chatter, go into gamma wave mode, and that is the equivalent of prayer, meditation, chanting, it's all the same thing. So I feel blessed that I have a craft that allows me to engage regularly. And some of the artists I know are pretty Zen because, like you said, their habits stacking it's, it's built into their lives. So I like what you said about taking a picture every day.

Speaker 1 1:39:03

I used to have a bitch in camera. It's my favorite thing on earth to do If I can't paint a plein air painting I love. I'm a photographer. I love it. Well, now I'm just like everybody else. I just have a cell phone in my hand. But on every potty walk with Bowie, I take pictures because it reminds me of the beauty. How about just that? Even if you don't print it, you don't share it on Facebook. That's right. With the photo, you're putting something on a pedestal and appreciating the beauty that's all around us. I'm being corny now, but isn't that the value of just taking those photos? Because you're seeing, you're actually. There's a great book called the Zen of Seeing, so being an artist is really not about having craft or technique.

Speaker 1 1:39:41

It's about learning to see.

Speaker 2 1:39:42

Yes, yeah, it's that sense of being intentional, like journaling. Like some people I say what's the difference between mindful journaling and just journaling? I said there may not be a difference for you, but for me mindful journaling is I'm journaling with intention, it's like I come in the sense, maybe, and it's like I'm today. I'm not like in this moment I'm not going to think about anything as an intention, but I'm just going to let it be and let listen, and then what am I hearing? Or let go with my thoughts, like the morning pages that Julia Cameron does in the artist way. I think it's a great journaling exercise, um, and but the other thing is is like just listening, uh, every, uh, one person. I have a colleague of mine. Every hour he takes a moment, a minute, to write down what's the word he's like, what is he grateful or present to, what's the word to describe his hour, and so at the end of the day he's got like 10 hours of 10 words of his work day, of how his day went.

Speaker 1 1:40:32

And.

Speaker 2 1:40:33

I thought that is a cool like, but that was done with intention. You know, like mindful intention and the sense, like you said, over you stack those over and time you're able to see them. The other thing I want to say to listeners, if you've never tried mindfulness before and you want to, is I know, at least in the Western culture, that we want to say let's be productive and do them all. Just pick one, find out. First of all, I actually said what do you like to do? Like do you take your dog for what routine like? Here's a different routine and ritual routine is. I take my dog for a walk every day. It's now a ritual free, dominate, because you take pictures intentionally of of that moment well, it is possible.

Speaker 1 1:41:09

While doing dishes, isn't it to notice? The dapples of light on the counter. Yeah, I read, I forget who it was saying just brushing my daughter's hair, Like you can be in the moment whenever you choose to be.

Speaker 2 1:41:21

Right Thich Nhat. Hanh is a great he's reading present moment, wonderful moment being peace.

Speaker 1 1:41:32

They're all about. He says if you're going to eat an orange, just eat an orange and do nothing else, or such a novel idea to it right.

Speaker 3 1:41:36

Well, and here's here's something to add to that, because I've been listening to you guys kind of talking about that. So one of the things that I've been trying to do because I'm so busy with my own studies and mental health and then, you know, doing the podcast here with nick and then my other full-time job that pays the bills- and all those people depending on you. Yeah, yeah so your life just gets kind of chaotic.

Speaker 3 1:41:58

And the one thing that I started realizing and my husband works in public safety, so we started realizing that even though we see each other every day, at the end of the day like it's not quality time anymore and so I started thinking about, like when we first met and I was like you know we used to I used to leave little notes for him not every day, but I'd leave little notes for him and then generally he would like have some type of whatever surprise for me, and I know, nick, you recently saw one of my social posts about him leaving some chocolate in my car and what sparked that was because I started trying to go back to that intention, to where I have carved out my goals, at least once a week to sit down and saw I have a plan or why notate little things he's done throughout the week, and then I write him a letter bringing all those things back up and I hide it somewhere in the

Speaker 3 1:42:50

house. But that's become kind of a ritual and it's with intention, because I'm trying to bring our that connectivity back to our relationship, not that we've our relationship was on the rocks or anything, but just to, as our kids are, we're moving into empty nester stage to you know, have that reconnection, that intimacy that we don't find in that crazy busy day life. So I love everything you guys are sharing because I think that's partly why find in that crazy busy day life. So I love everything you guys are sharing because I think that's partly why people feel that burnout is because we're not being intentional, we're not finding those moments in our lives.

Exploring Meaning, Ritual, and Self-Awareness

Speaker 1 1:43:21

Well, you have to create those moments to again express to your. I mean, I'm not the relationship expert here, but I I've learned from my sister like you recommit, you choose to be there. You know you can leave, just staying, I can leave at any time. That's very freeing because then you actively choose to be there and recommit.

Speaker 1 1:43:39

So my sister and her partner I think they've been together 38 years, 40 years and she'll say you know the only commitment we made sorry, virginia, I tend to repeat myself on this podcast, but you know people say, oh, we grew apart, and I guess that's a form of burnout. Right, we grew apart. And she'll say, well, but the only commitment we made is to continue to learn and grow and get to know the new person. So they kind of like your note, although yours sounds more fun they uh kind of write a love letter to each other every year and recommit. Here's what I like about you now, not the person I married, but here's what I love about you now. I love that idea Just recommitting, choosing, choosing your circumstances and conditions at all times. Or it's been said maybe it was Thich Nhat Hanh that said it that you may not have chosen all the conditions in your life, but it's pretty helpful to just act as if you did.

Speaker 2 1:44:29

That's right. Yeah, cheryl Strait has a similar quote. She says you may not be in control of the of the cards you're dealt with, but you have a responsibility to play the hell out of the hand of life, you know that kind of thing I let yeah, I do too.

Speaker 2 1:44:45

The other thing you talk about, that like since a relationship, and it's like I learned this from the nuns. It's like because I asked them about you know, I would ask some of the older nuns about how you live the vowed life and I said you know what's your plans? And she said they would say to me the vowed life is getting up every day and recommitting my life to live love and it's a daily commitment and I've decided to do this all my life. And I thought, wow, yeah, it's that sense of relationship building.

Speaker 1 1:45:11

Yeah, and also another. God, we're just quoting people right and left here, but another quote I actually wrote it into the Seeker, my most recent book, but it was a sentiment that I had heard. How do you trust your partner? And the answer is I don't need to trust my partner because I trust myself to survive come what may. You know, I trust myself. Good, did that make sense?

Speaker 2 1:45:35

Yes In that context.

Speaker 1 1:45:37

Yeah, so faith. I think getting up in the morning requires faith. Anyway, well, we've covered a lot here and we're coming up on an hour and a half and thank you so much for you gave us really specific practices that anyone can employ at any time, I think. Is there anything we didn't cover as far as, like, the tenets in your book or the suggestions you make in the book?

Speaker 2 1:45:57

No, the most of them. The rest, the other part of my book, you can talk. You can get the book there's Learn I Cut. Just talk about some practical things, about like, one of the actions is carrying a symbol of meaning, exercising gratitude. The other one is practicing the pause and setting your intention. And then how do you just make the most of your time, that sense of dealing with finitude in the day and then finding your true north, which is focusing on the essential. Those are part of the seven habits in the book and again they offer just practical actions. And then I have over 20 journal prompts as well. So each chapter ends with some journal props and just an invitation.

Speaker 2 1:46:37

If you've not tried journaling again, you could even do one word a day, yes, and again something, or express sketches. One of the nuns I lived with she English was not her first language and when we went on retreat we did a 30-day retreat in silence and she, instead of journaling, she did art through chalk and pencil, art of her day, of the intention of her day, and they were just the most incredible. I still have vivid images in my mind of those of her commitment to love, and she expressed it through art every day One photo, one drawing a day.

Speaker 1 1:47:19

That's awesome For me because I'm so trained, I've actually found that doing a really crude drawing using my left hand, which is not my dominant hand with crayon, the more crude the materials, the more direct and intuitive it can be. So I have a little crayon drawing right in front of me that I look at while we do this podcast. But yeah, using the left hand, it kind of takes you back to your core essence, or maybe even your childhood essence, you know, and then using a crayon, it's pretty powerful.

Speaker 2 1:47:46

It's one of my favorite activities.

Speaker 1 1:47:49

Yeah, well, it's been a while for me. I have to. I do have some crayons in the drawer, but I want to go back to one little thing because we're going to wrap up. But it seems like this idea of linear chronological time versus what's the other one Time doesn't really exist.

Speaker 2 1:48:06

Kairos, kronos and Kairos, the expansive Kronos and Kairos.

Speaker 1 1:48:10

So it's come up a lot in Virginia, Like you said, sometimes you're so my word is overwhelmed that there's hardly time to connect in a quality way with your partner, for example. Isn't it true that time expands when you choose to be in the moment Like there's? It replenishes. There's just, there's no scarcity there. I've noticed that and it's a sentiment I've heard. Time expands around you if you surrender to the moment, a sentiment I've heard, time expands around you.

Speaker 2 1:48:35

If you surrender to the moment and that's right, it's energizing your energy is reset and recharged. And, virginia, you mentioned something too. What's important is you were reflective of your life and your relationship. And then you pause to say to yourself, listening and listening to you saying I need to do something different. And I, and because it's become routine, and I want to ritualize it so that it becomes meaningful again, to deepen that meaning. And so that's another signal to listen to in your life of self-awareness. If something that you love to do becomes routine and you're not energized by it, pause and reflect on that and think about is there a pivot I need to do to make it meaningful and energizing again?

Speaker 1 1:49:16

Something simple. How do you make something routine again, satisfying again? You just change your view of it, your intention of it.

Speaker 2 1:49:25

Maybe Like Elizabeth Gilbert, she writes a love letter to herself every day.

Speaker 1 1:49:31

See, I love ritual I'm a Scorpio, oh yeah, same here.

Speaker 2 1:49:34

I'm a Scorpio as well. Well are you?

Speaker 1 1:49:36

adventurous. Yes, I'm the weird mix of like very easily satisfied. I don't have a lot of desires and needs. I'm very easily satisfied, but I'm pretty adventurous. I love to travel, if that makes sense. But, like speaking of routine. Like I'm the weirder who likes routine sex routine. Like I'm the weirdo who likes routine sex. It doesn't always have to be right. A romance novel routine is fine with me, is that that's okay?

Speaker 2 1:50:01

Predictability leads to accountability leads to there's I'm a risk manager and there's, you know, and it's like you want something predictable, you know, that holds people accountable and repeatable, that that you know. The outcome of that is progress sometimes, but the other time is that sense of self-satisfaction of you know there's some things in life that it's really good to lean into predictability and repeatability and accountability and again that can become routine. But then it's like how do I make that meaningful? And it may look boring on the outside from somebody else.

Speaker 1 1:50:34

Yeah, but I think people are always looking. The grass is always greener right, and maybe people need to. It's almost like the Wizard of Oz. To be really corny, everything you need is in your own backyard If you shift out the lens through which you're viewing it. It's kind of an inside job, isn't it? Contentment. Yeah, yes, I just think we live in a society where we're more apt to change the channel or move on instead of just adjusting the lens. You know.

Speaker 2 1:50:59

That's right, yeah, so most often, we're in charge of focusing the lens to be to find the clarity, you know, and and sometimes that's hard to do and you know, there's no, no hack on, like Netflix or Hulu or anything Sometimes we just want to kick back and just forget about life, and that's okay. But if we spend, you know, 40, 70, 150 hours a week doing that, you know, maybe we need to rethink how we reflect on life as opposed to escaping life.

Speaker 1 1:51:26

I love it. Yeah, anyway, I'm sounding a little negative.

Speaker 2 1:51:30

I hate to make generalization.

Speaker 1 1:51:31

Everybody's different too, but you know.

Speaker 1 1:51:33

I think there are some universal phenomena that we're talking about here and again. Burnout, just to go quickly back to that. Like I did not see it operating in my life. But I will say for me, I was on a job where I was unappreciated for too long and I just didn't look out for myself. I didn't have the tools. Like you, I grew up in an alcoholic household and plenty of dysfunction, and so I didn't really know how to get out because my peptide addictions are just staying in bad situations for way too long when they simply don't serve me. Anyway, I was just on a job for too long where I was actually not just unappreciated but it was messed up in a lot of ways. So I put up with literal, just ethical lapses and abuses, and that's when I got sick, virginia. So I'm sorry I'm not exempt from burnout because I allowed that to happen to. I physically got sick because of the uh I guess it's called uh stress like emotional stress, yeah, internalized stress.

Speaker 3 1:52:34

Well, as I was saying, I think what what you know Denise just talked about through this whole you know podcast episode about you know, the mindfulness is is, if we work in environments where everybody, at every level you know, from the janitor to the CEO, takes those moments, takes the time to pause, shows gratitude to someone, I think we would see less burnout amongst each other because we are being more of the collective you know and supporting each other versus you know what the productivity outcome is.

Speaker 2 1:53:11

Yes.

Speaker 1 1:53:12

Awesome. Well, god, I think there was so much in here. I think our listeners will really benefit from this. So I feel like I already gave you this prompt, but any last words of wisdom, anything else you'd, you can definitely come on for a part two if you ever feel like it.

Speaker 2 1:53:24

I would love to come. I so enjoy talking with both of you. I'm very energized by this conversation and I want to say to all the listeners, I want to say if I can do it, you can do it in the sense that it's just the intention to lead a reflective life.

Speaker 2 1:53:37

You know, it's like it's part of this journey of our lives and if you've not started, and if you're 80 years old, you can do it. If you've just 19 or 20, and you're wanting to do it, and everyone in between, it's the sense. That moment can be there now and it's not. We have all the tools within us to do that and and um. So I just encourage you to think about that, reflect about that and um to um, take that step to what I call mind, clear the chaos of your life and mind the moment, because the moment is timeless.

Speaker 1 1:54:10

Mind the moment I'm going to make that bumper sticker. I love it. I want to make a t-shirt.

Speaker 2 1:54:14

That's one of my principles in the book is one is clear the chaos. Mind the moment like internally, set your mindset and then clear the chaos. Set your intention and then work at doing. You know to be present, so thank you all for that opportunity for listening, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:54:28

Thank you. It's very inspiring stuff. Wow, thank you. I'm going to go out and be intentional.

Speaker 2 1:54:36

And have fun along the way.

Speaker 1 1:54:38

Absolutely. I love that Words of wisdom. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for being here, Virginia. Any final words?

Speaker 3 1:54:46

No, I think we've said it all.

Speaker 1 1:54:48

Pretty much, yeah, Okay, guys, thank you so much. And for our listeners, remember, life is story and we can get our hands in the clay Individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.