Art of the Tech Thriller with Author John Bukowski

Virginia takes the helm in this engaging episode of Language of the Soul as we sit down with the multifaceted writer John Bukowski. From veterinary practice to crafting thrilling narratives, John shares how his scientific background enriches his storytelling with technical plausibility and authenticity. Explore the therapeutic power of thrillers and the profound role of fiction in navigating existential threats, much like the timeless narratives of Star Trek and The Twilight Zone. Discover how literary influences such as Stephen King, Ernest Hemingway, and Elmore Leonard have shaped John's approach to character development and dialogue, offering listeners a fresh perspective on the art of storytelling.

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Transcript

Exploring Storytelling and Truth in Fiction

Speaker 1 0:45

Hi guys, thank you so much for joining us today on Language of the Soul. I wanted to give everybody a heads up just on the chance that any of our listeners have abandonment issues. I will not be joining Virginia today, unfortunately. A very dear friend of the family has passed and I will be at a memorial, but Virginia will be manning this ship and interviewing our guest who's been on before. It's John Bukowski. He was awesome and had a lot to offer last time and I'm banking on the fact that he will bring some pearls of wisdom to the table again. He has a lot to say, not just about the why part of the storytelling equation, but the craft, the technique. I think there are a lot of schools of thought out there about what constitutes good writing and good storytelling. So enjoy. He'll have a lot to offer, I'm sure, and I will be reading John's bio like normal, and then Virginia will be manning the interview. Again, thanks for tuning in and enjoy.

Speaker 1 1:42

Over a 40-year career, john Bukowski has gone from veterinary practitioner to epidemiologist, to medical writer, to fiction writer. With two doctorates and a master's, john identifies as the most over-educated fiction writer in the country. He currently authors short fiction and fast-paced thrillers such as Project Suicide and, most recently, checkout Time. A 2024 finalist for both the Silver Fashion and Imagine Awards, john grew up in a factory worker family of eight in Motown. At each step along his path, john has needed to embrace change and tackle the challenges of a new direction. Each step has made him a stronger writer. He loves chatting about his journey from science to fiction and the process he uses to turn what-if scenarios into novels and short stories. John has extensive experience in public speaking, including numerous appearances on theatrical stages, tv radio, podcasts, seminars, workshops, civic groups and book clubs. Welcome, john Bukowski. Thank you, happy to be here.

Speaker 2 2:46

You're welcome. The one thing that we've changed since you've been on is we have started. Well, nick has started asking pretty much like this just general question of all of our guests in this new season, so I'm going to ask that, okay, okay. So basically, the general question we just asked, which goes right to the heart of our podcast here at Language of the Soul, is, with the understanding that there are very real existential threats to our survival, what does story mean to you? And with that, how would you say that story helps us tell about the human condition?

Speaker 3 3:36

Oh boy. Well, to me, story, as you know, I had a background in science, things like that. I kind of focused on that fairly early, but I had a great deal of interest in English, reading and writing, history, things like that. So I have a multiple interests, multiple things that I excelled at and liked in school, and so for me, story is a great way to get back to that artistic feeling which, with science, you kind of lose, and uh, and so I, I think when, uh, especially when you talk about story or, if you want to say, fiction, um, sometimes it's not that far from the truth, uh, but you can, you can sometimes frame the truth a little easier when you're dealing with a made-up situation, an artificial situation that's what they always say like with the old Star Trek and the old Twilight Zone series, they were able to discuss important issues which at the time the censors probably wouldn't have let them discuss because they did them in a science fiction type of thing.

Speaker 3 4:58

So I think that's one of the things that story gives you. It allows people at least fiction does. It allows people to explore feelings, explore ideas, explore existential threats, as you say, but with a little distance to it. You're not talking about yourself. You're not talking about necessarily anything real. You're talking about something you've created in your mind, and the mind is where let's face it. We're going to solve these world's problems. It's going to be with our minds.

Speaker 2 5:33

No, and that's that's true and that's, you know, definitely been the whole thing about us, and doing this podcast has been very much that it's like. Even though we do talk about story as in technique or the process or even the create, you know the creative process and all of that At the same time. I mean to me and I mean you brought it up, I mean how you lived history and all of that. I mean I really feel that the stories that we create that are fictional to the stories from history, that are based in truth, help us understand who we are, you know, as a society and culture and, in general, as, of course, humans on this planet. With that said, because I know you have such a unique background and you know you do focus in more of that science fiction kind of journey of storytelling, what has your scientific experiences you know, how have they influenced that creative narrative and helping to tell the stories that you know we need to understand where we are now today.

Speaker 3 6:42

Well, some of my writing like Project Suicide, my first book, and I have a sequel to it called Bad Pennies that comes out in probably sometime first half of 2025. And those are more techno thrillers, or at least they have a technical aspect to them. And in those situations I'm using my scientific background to sell the idea. Like they say, when you write, say, science fiction, and these are not too far off from science fiction. You need some technical accuracy to build on because you have to gain the reader's trust. If it's all just made up crap, for want of a better word they're not going to buy it. But if there's a little bit of, at least it sounds technically plausible and if that comes across, then they buy into it. Like with a good con man. You know they don't start off by selling you the Brooklyn Bridge. They start off by all kinds of other things, gaining your trust. Then they try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

Speaker 3 7:48

So I think that's certainly one part of my writing, but also something that people always joke. You know I've never used algebra. Well, maybe you never have, but learning algebra, learning story problems, learning about the body and how it works, all of that trains you to concentrate, to formulate your thoughts and that's all important in writing. We also talked about history. I love history. I've been studying especially military history for 50 years, probably more, and a knowledge of history is important, not only, like we say, to solve world problems, but in anything you write there's going to be some historical aspect, whether it's straight historical fiction or historical romance, or if it's either modern day something, there's going to be some historical reference, and I think that's important that you know, that you know a little bit of that and can impart it that makes sense.

Speaker 2 8:53

And I mean, and you think about too, especially like how you're bringing in, um, you know some of that scientific, technical kind of background, I mean, and you brought up, you know, twilight zone and star trek. I, I know for both of us. You know a lot of the stuff that we saw on. Those type of shows were like oh sure, like we'll be long gone before we ever see anything like that happen. And now here's AI. I mean, the first thing that went through my mind was because I love the Terminator series.

Speaker 2 9:26

And I was like did anybody watch that? Did nobody learn from that movie? Like hello, I mean how? How many movies in the 80s? We're talking about machines killing us and here we are, we're creating intelligence in it, like did you forget? That lesson, that that we all kind of dreamt about as being, you know, like and you can see the robots that they have now.

Speaker 3 9:47

They walk and they fall down, they can get back up and they can do tasks and stuff. I mean humanoid looking after a fashion. So yeah, it's not all just swing arms on assembly lines. Some of the robots are actually androids now.

Influences on Writing Style and Themes

Speaker 2 10:04

Right, right, but I think you're right. No-transcript. You know, those stories really help us grapple with what we're trying to fix in the future, let alone what we're trying to figure out now. You know as well. With that said, what would you say have been the traditions that have shaped your understanding of narrative, and in what ways do you think that affects our perception, your perception of truth, in today's world?

Speaker 3 10:49

You're talking about? Uh, understanding narrative is that it.

Speaker 2 10:53

Yeah, understanding narrative, just understanding just kind of. You know the various things, you know that that we're seeing when it comes to to the fiction writing that we see now, because we're seeing a lot of things in the past that are actually becoming lived realities to where you know that bridge is getting small.

Speaker 3 11:13

Yeah, as far as writing technique, I was blessed and cursed with growing up in Catholic school, so you've got a lot of traditional English structure. You know how to parse a sentence, how things go together, how paragraphs go together, so those things really help too, because a lot of people want to know. I don't want to do with any of that, I just want to write. Well, it's like being a mechanic and not having any tools or not understanding how something works. You have to have the basics down first. Now, even if you didn't get that, stephen King always one of my, one of my influences Stephen King always talks about you. Pick up most of that for reading, and that's why I say to people they say well, you know, what do you? What do you have to do to be a writer? You have to read a lot and you have to write a lot reading.

Speaker 3 12:03

I've been reading since probably I was seven or eight years old and used to spend lots of summer afternoons in the air conditioning of a library in Detroit reading and taking books home and stuff like that. So I've been reading fiction and history my entire life. And so just by reading you pick up how a narrative works, how flow goes, how characters are developed, all that stuff, as well as the language background. You know how to structure it. And also, I think things like I'm a big fan of old movies and you know we talked about TV shows like Star Trek, they're all you know. They're all stories that are played out over a beginning, middle and end. Movies are obviously much longer. Miniseries are longer yet and it's kind of like the difference between a novel and a short story. You know, one is short with a little punch and the other one is longer with character development and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 13:08

But you pick up a lot just from watching movies and good television shows. I'm not talking about like a sitcom. You might pick up something. But yeah, reading, and you know, read the right authors, you know just. You know if you want to write thrillers, don't read romance. You know it's. If you want to write romance, don't read romance. You know it's. If you want to write romance, don't read mysteries. You know it's not to say that you can't read those as well, but you know, try to focus more on the genre you like to write it.

Speaker 2 13:42

Right, no, that makes sense. And I'm actually a huge Stephen King fan. It's kind of funny. So I fell in love with Stephen King when I was a teenager, loved the craft. I know people call him the horror writer, you know the grandfather of horror, but I never felt he was really like what I think of horror, like really what a horror writer is, because I always felt like he always was constantly talking about the battle of literally the human condition of good and evil with inside of us, you know, the primal man versus the higher man, and I honestly think it was probably reading those books helping me, you know, look at life in a different way.

Speaker 2 14:30

Like you know, you can be a good person and do horrible things. You can be a horrible person and do good things, just like a lot of his characters are like. So I do think you gain a lot of that when you read different. You know types of writers. But this is what I learned from him and I think honestly that was probably what propelled me to go into mental health was because I was so just like in awe of that constant storyline you know, being like that, that being like the basic part of all of his writing to where I was like I want to understand human behavior better. Like why, why is that so? Who influenced you to kind of do the same thing? But in your genre of writing, what did you find that you're like going? This is why I want to write here, because I keep seeing this constant kind of theme happening and I want to understand this better.

Speaker 3 15:29

Well, I write primarily to entertain. Um, there usually are themes, there's a character arc in it, but that's not while I'm writing. I'm writing so that people will enjoy it, hopefully, uh and I think a lot of writers write for that reason at least I hope so. But my influences, uh, there's three major ones. The first one is Ernest Hemingway, because he's the, you know, the first modern American writer who taught us that we don't need long-winded purple prose. We can make a really impact with just short sentences, as long as they're put together properly. Second is probably Stephen King.

Speaker 3 16:12

I think he's the king of character development and he'll even say the reason that most of people you know what he does with his stories is he gets you to love his characters and then he messes with them. The first book of his I read was the Shining, when I was actually in college, in veterinary school, and it got me looking over my shoulder when I'm outside at night. You know that kind of thing, and it's the characters that descent into madness that you talk about. The difference between good and evil certainly is evinced in that, with Jack Torrance, you know, going down the rabbit hole in the hotel.

Speaker 2 16:47

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 16:48

And the third is Elmore Leonard. I think he's the king of dialogue. I've read most of his books and I don't know if you know him, mm-mm, I don't he is. Do you like the show Justified?

Speaker 2 17:04

I have not seen that actually.

The Therapeutic Power of Thrillers

Speaker 3 17:06

Okay, that was a very popular show a few years ago, a cable show. He did that. He did a bunch of Westerns early on. He did movies, he did books, like the source material for Get Shorty and Jackie Brown, and so a lot of his more later writing. He's passed away a few years ago, but his later writing had to do with kind of crime novels and thrillers and those are.

Speaker 3 17:36

He's the king of dialogue. If you read his dialogue enough, you pick up how to write dialogue properly. I think that's that's important for dialogue. And I've had a background in theater as well, important for dialogue, and I've had a background in uh theater as well, uh, community theater, and you read a lot of scripts and scripts are nothing but dialogue and stage direction, right. So you pick up dialogue that way. And I like other writers too. I like some of robert parker's uh, uh thriller novels, some of uh stephen hunter, uh michael cron certainly he was an influence as the techno thriller genre which I like to write in sometimes, and so, yeah, those are.

Speaker 3 18:18

I kind of, I kind of gravitated to thriller because it's kind of just how my, my narrative mind works when I think of, when I think, for example, when I first came up with the idea for Project Suicide excuse me for checkout time which is my second book about a hotel bomber who was trying to extort money. I saw a trap door in a hotel room. I looked up the ceiling and I said, huh, you could put something in there. And I started thinking of things like what would you put in there? You could put jewels, and so you know, you've got a jewel heist and somebody finds the mob's jewels or money. You could put microfilm or the equivalent electronic item up there. You've got a spy thriller. So I immediately went to thriller and so that's just kind of how my mind works no, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 19:13

I mean, and, and you know, writing in the thriller genre, I mean it's definitely like crafting puzzles, um, and I'm just kind of curious when you think about it if you look at like a on a larger scale I'm going to kind of bring this more into a cultural perspective Do you think, on that larger cultural scale, that the purpose of you know, thrillers are kind of to help us reflect and to kind of go through our own anxieties and problem solve, our own, like to help us be better about those, those skills and building those and guiding us through them, kind of like an intrinsic part of our humanity.

Speaker 3 19:53

Yeah, I think they're just like horror, I think they're a form of therapy. With a thriller, you get the excitement, the excitement, the excitement, excitement and then the good resolution, you know. So, like with a horror, you get people like to be scared, they like to be, they like to experience fear, experience anxiety, the rush of a action type of thing in a safe environment. Right, that's kind of what, if you think about it, what psychologists do if you have a fear of flying, they, they gradually work through that, going higher and higher, uh, in to to face that fear in a safe environment right and so, yeah, so I think you're right.

Speaker 3 20:42

Yeah, I think, uh, it is a form of, uh, of therapy. Uh, reading is therapeutic. It's also. I remember reading this loving the lord of the rings trilogy and reading it multiple times when I was a teenager and it took you to another world. That was, that was different. It was almost a flashback in time, uh, to a gentler time, kind of like the waltons. I used to like that too. It was the same kind of thing it takes you to a gentler time and that good and evil you know, that was certainly Lord of the Rings and things like that that you talked about before. That's certainly an evidence there.

Speaker 2 21:24

Right yeah, right yeah, and I feel like it helps us make more sense of, at least, when I sit down to write or when I'm reading a book, I tend to find I pick up something or write something that pertains to what I'm going through in some way personally, on some level. So it seems like if I'm feeling more nostalgic or needing that connection with relationship, I'll probably pick something that's more romance or, you know, maybe like little women or something more like that, versus if I'm going through like grief or something like that, I might pick up something that's going to transport me, that's more of like a magical fairy tale kind of you know, where I can just solve everything by a wave of a wand, kind of kind of thing and it's.

Speaker 2 22:24

It's interesting how literature does that, how it helps us kind of mentally, like you said you know, like you know reading lord of the rings, how it transports you into another world, like books really do do that, and I I think that's just so interesting that authors are able to just grab us and pull us into wherever we need to be to work through things, you know, without realizing it, on a very subconscious level. So I'd love for you to tell me a little bit about the book that you have coming out in 2025. That is the second book to Project Suicide.

Speaker 3 23:02

It's a sequel to Project Suicide, which was a story of a I'll just recap was a story of how an Alzheimer's treatment gets perverted into an assassination drug. High profile politicians start killing themselves and only a drunken genius can save the country. Well, our drunken genius is back with his girlfriend or his aide, amy, and there's somebody from the past, from the original Project Suicide, that is making trouble, and Deacon Creel, my protagonist, is drawn again into finding a cure for Project Suicide and also trying to stay alive from this evil presence from the past. So that's the new book and it's right now. We're at a stage where we've got the front matter and stuff worked out and I'm currently responding to editorial comments and hopefully it'll be all set to go sometime in first half of 2025.

Speaker 2 24:08

Yeah, that's great. So I'm curious, can you tell us where the inspiration came from your drunken genius? Because I mean I literally think of like so many different characters along those lines. Like I think of House, you know, from the TV show House MD, and how he was hooked on painkillers. Yet he was just like this amazing diagnostic doctor. And then you have, you know, like your typical, like mad scientist, like in Frankenstein, and it just it's I.

Exploring Flawed Characters in Fiction

Speaker 2 24:40

And then you think of real life people. You know, um, like I was just reading about I, I I've seen the movie Beautiful Mind, but I was actually reading some other stuff about um Elliot Nash recently, and I mean he was, he was an amazing mathematician but he, of course, was diagnosed with schizophrenia. So it's, it's literally, you do see that that there's kind of like some kind of bad, you know, be it mentally diagnosed, or you know, like Hawking, I mean obviously he had his physical, you know things that he had to overcome but was a genius. So you really have real life people who have to overcome that. I mean I, like I know, with Albert Einstein they talk about, like you know, he, his, possibly he was dyslexic, so but you know, he, he was, possibly he was dyslexic, dyslexic so, but you know, and then you see that with actual fictional characters. So did that come from kind of those historical kind of figures that you came up with, like the drunken mad genius, or did it just?

Speaker 3 25:43

Well, actually I would say I came up with it for a couple of things. First, I wanted to get away from the standard thriller trope of the ex Navy SEAL, the ex FBI agent, the ex Jack Reacher type of person who now is a crusader, who is now is the equalizer, who now is Jack Reacher, whatever I and I. And so I used my own background and said, well, we'll make him a scientific genius. He has some military experience as working for the radiological, biological, chemical area with the CDC, which is a uniformed service, centers for Disease Control. But I wanted him to have a flaw.

Speaker 3 26:34

I think a lot of people I'm drawn to flawed characters and so in his case he's got a lot of guilt that he carries around and he's a scientific guy. So the emotional side he does not know how to handle it, so he handles it poorly. Through drink side he does not know how to handle it, so he handles it poorly through drink. And I think that's a lot of people who historically, edgar Allan Poe and others who self medicated for problems, emotional problems, and so, yeah, that was, that was my rationale for why he would be a drunken genius. I wanted it to be more science than ex-military and I wanted it to be flawed, so that's where that came from.

Speaker 2 27:25

Yeah, and I like that because I think you know, like the people I mentioned, I mean obviously we all have flaws. I mean none of us are are perfect and I think that helps make characters more believable.

Speaker 3 27:36

Um, and you also, something you mentioned before about uh, you were talking about feeling different ways and stuff stephen king, and I don't know if you're familiar with his book, the dark half I haven't read that one yet um, and he says in there or or at least he does in the movie, I can't remember I've read the book.

Speaker 3 27:56

I can't remember. He says in the book specifically this is what I'm going to say is he goes we're all human beings multiple. We have the face we show the world. Then we have the face that we hide inside. The face that we hide inside and a lot of times we all have like wanting to kill people at some time, or being very lustful, uh or, and we keep those hidden. We don't show them to people.

Speaker 3 28:23

The fiction writer can let them out and show people the matter of fact. The fiction writer has to do that. Just like the actor, you can't play a scene and be repressed. You have to let your emotions come through. You have to let your inner self come through some way, and so that's what I think one of the things writers does for you that's also therapeutic is you can bring out some of these things that you would never act upon in life. That's why it's fun to write villains. I mean, uh, they do all kinds of things which we would never do, um, and they justify them. You know that's uh, they're right to do it as it yeah, and it's true.

Speaker 2 29:07

I mean I love how, I love that, um, they show what steven king shared, because it's I mean, to be able to create a character, especially a villain type character, and I think most of us in the world consider ourselves good people and would pretty much give our shirt off our backs to somebody in need. Yet when you're sitting down as an author, you have to dig deep. You have to dig into those areas of yourself that you want I think everybody in life wants to pretend doesn't exist. You know, like you said, that you know it's the whole shadow self, as Carl, you know Jane talks about, about. You know you've got, we've got that darker side of us that you know does and we have to be aware of that and be okay with that. Just know you know there's rules and system that you can't just act upon.

Speaker 3 30:04

Stephen King. He talks about that. He goes you know, I've never committed murder. I've never, you know, but my characters have often committed murder. I've never, you know, but my characters have often. That doesn't mean that I'm I am that, but I certainly have it within me to imagine it.

Speaker 2 30:19

Yes, well, and I think that's the big thing I think, when it comes to us as humans in general, is we can imagine all kinds of possibilities. It's just acting upon those things, be it good, bad or indifferent. Um, and that's what's so amazing about story, is it, like you said, it allows us to explore those parts of our psyche. It allows us to yeah that's.

Speaker 3 30:46

That's one of the reasons. I think it's. It's kind of a shame that we're doing all of this censoring. Like if you watch I just saw a clip for Gone with the Wind or a little description with it, and they say it contains, you know, things that might be traumatic for blah blah, blah, blah, blah you know it's like well, it's history and you can't learn from it if you don't look at it. And you know I grew up with the Three Stooges but I never hit anybody in the head with a hammer. You know we should be teaching especially children to differentiate what's fictional, what's maybe even done for comedic intent, fictionally, with reality and not blur that line.

Speaker 2 31:37

You know, say this is the line. Yeah, it does feel sometimes within our society that we're starting to blur those lines a little bit and I wonder if that's to our own detriment. I mean, I think about and not that I want, nor does Nick ever want anybody to. With that said, at the same time, if we don't talk about things that are not good or understand like, hey, it's okay to laugh at ourselves and it's okay to imagine these crazy things, but it doesn't mean we should go actually do that, imagine these crazy things, but it doesn't mean we should go actually do that.

Portrayal of Gender Roles in Narratives

Speaker 3 32:33

Right, I'm a student of history, as I said, and that's one thing. If you study history, you see that people did all kinds of terrible things and they were accepted in the past. That was the society that they lived in was a harsher time, harsher methods. When you talk about things like, for example, slavery, that was the common thing prior to like 1800 throughout the world, you know through certainly Romans, Greeks, any society, you at the Aztecs, the Incas, whatever Slavery was an aspect of it. So yeah, it doesn't mean we have to do it now, but as a historian you look at they have to do that as well. You can't really judge the people based on modern mores or whatever. You have to judge them based on the time period that they live in.

Speaker 2 33:49

Right, yeah, and I love that you just said it, because stories do often act as the mirror to society's values and fears in the time in which they happened, and I think it's easy to have that whole hindsight's 2020, like to take what we now know and apply it to somebody 100 years in the past, like they didn't have that knowledge or they didn't have that awareness.

Speaker 3 34:18

Right or that experience yeah.

Speaker 2 34:19

Yeah, in your opinion, what do you feel are the popular narratives of today? What do they say about us as a culture? What would you say is probably what we're saying now in our storytelling?

Speaker 2 34:35

I'm not sure I understand what it was so like, because there's a lot of different, you know, movies have come out recently, um, you know, obviously the publishing industry and books has gotten really big um between. We've got people who can self-publish to the big publishers. So I'm just kind of curious because stories do act as that mirror to society's values and our own fears. I'm just curious in your opinion, what do you feel are some of the narratives today like what they're saying about us as a culture? Do you ever think about that?

Speaker 3 35:10

Yeah, that gets down to again this dark half, or the multiple parts of being a person.

Speaker 3 35:18

I think there's a hesitancy now to allow those parts to come out, especially if you're writing historical fiction or whatever fiction or whatever.

Speaker 3 35:36

But in all aspects, uh, I think we're seeing writers censoring themselves, uh, on what they think they can.

Speaker 3 35:39

No one wants to be canceled or no one wants to be criticized or say, if they have a character that maybe is, uh, you know, a person of color who is a villain, you know people would be hesitant to write that now, as if there aren't people in present and past who are villainous, who happen to be people of color, you know, just like there are white people who are villainous or whatever. So I think there's a danger there because, as Stephen King says, if you can't let that dark half out, then the writing itself is going to be repressed. Just like that, just like I said with acting. You know, if you have a character that is living in 1850 in the south and he acts like a modern day person, that's not going to ring true, uh. So so that's why I'm a big fan of studying history both, so you can, you can, you can look at it without being repulsed by it, and still understand that it's not what we would do today yeah.

Speaker 2 36:45

So it's funny that balance between accuracy and creative license and I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go right down a path that I'm sure next week I can't believe she just did this. But one of the things that I, with my own children and they're all girls and then even with my husband, the one thing that we see a lot happening is and I'm not saying they aren't there, because I would say I'm probably one of them but a lot of shows now it's always like she's a woman of power and I'm a very strong. You know, I identify as female, I am very strong, I'm very opinionated. My husband will tell you I wear the pants in the family straight up. So, yes, do I believe that there are strong females out there? Absolutely, like I loved you know, annie, go Get your Gun. Like I thought that there are strong females out there, absolutely Like I loved you know, annie, go get your gun. Like I thought that was an amazing play and that was a strong female character. However, seeing that in every single book and TV show, like being shoved in my face, I'm going okay.

Speaker 2 37:47

But there are women who aren't that and I think not every woman wants to aspire to be that, and so I think that's like kind of an injustice, because it makes it's. It's kind of and and to play devil's advocate on that is the flip side is, you know, it's the whole like, because you're a guy, you have to be macho and really it doesn't. I don't care if you're heterosexual, trans or or a gay man, you don't have to be macho, you can. You can have feelings and you can cry. And so I feel like we're starting to like now do that role reversal to the women, like no, you've, you've got to be. I mean, we already, as females, grown up like we have to be everything. But now it's like now we have to be strong and not show our emotions too, and it's like, hmm, really, I know what you mean.

Speaker 3 38:35

I like to write strong female characters. My first two books, project Suicide and Checkout Time, both have strong female characters where, but they're they're kind of different. The first one, amy Robbins. She's a strong character. She saves the day in many respects. The first one, amy Robbins, she's a strong character, she saves the day in many respects, but she is very much Phil. She is supporting her mission as a Marine corpsman is to support the man in charge and she sees herself in a subservient role to Deacon and to the mission that they're on. Subservient role to Deacon and to the mission that they're on. Whereas my second book, sally Pancakes, as they jokingly call her, sally Butterworth, she's an FBI agent and she's very strong and she is kind of take control and she doesn't do well with that being second banana to anybody and I enjoy both types of characters. So you're right, if you're restricted to just one, it gets a little boring.

Speaker 2 39:42

Yeah, Well, and you mentioned the term, you know, subservient and I'm going to not attack on you, so don't think that, John. And I'm going to not attack you, so don't think that, John. But I hate that term because I think that's kind of the mentality that's getting planted in women and I'm, you know, not to get all feminist here, but it's like there's that when we hear that term it's kind of like oh so you have to, you know, basically be on bended knee to the, the, the alpha melanin yeah, yeah, I certainly didn't mean that way no, no, no, no, no a better word would be supportive, I think yeah, and, and I think that's, I think that's like the.

Exploring the Impact of Storytelling

Speaker 2 40:22

The thing that I'm starting to see, though, like message wise, like that, that's how that's being portrayed, like that one character, you know, like that's what they're doing, like they're bowing down to, like the man to man, to the patriarchy, and I'm like you know, sometimes I think you need somebody who understands that they're, which is why I think you're going with that character. Where they are, they're not worrying about who the person is in charge, because the role is the ultimate. I always think of, like Spock, you know, the need of the one doesn't outweigh the need of the many, and I think sometimes we forget that in society, and I think stories help us remember that. Like, hey, it doesn't matter male, female, whatever gender identity you want to go with, the ultimate goal is the whole, not us individually. And when we start to focus on like those key things, like that's why I was bringing that up, like you know, like, oh, I'm being subservient, well, really are you, because now you're thinking individually, not collectively like what, and you can think of it just like as a workplace.

Speaker 3 41:24

If you're in a workplace team, not everybody's the leader. There's a hierarchy and you're you play you may play a supportive role to accomplish the projects or whatever you're working on. Certainly that's the case in the military, it's the case in society, everywhere, Almost every place. There is a hierarchy and most people are supporting that. You know they provide support services rather than being the one who gives the orders.

Speaker 2 41:54

Right, we're all cogs in the machine, right.

Speaker 3 41:58

Yeah, in some respects, if you want to think about that. Hopefully it's not like that. I've known people who worked on the assembly line in Detroit and that can be soul crushing yeah.

Speaker 2 42:10

Hopefully you're not a soul crushing cog. Hopefully you feel like your purpose is. If you go out, the whole machine stops working and that's a problem.

Speaker 3 42:18

So therefore, you feel like you have a purpose to contribute, right right and you, you can, you contribute to, uh, the greater good, as you say yeah, no, and I and I think you know ultimately that's what story does.

Speaker 2 42:32

It helps us remember those things that you know sometimes. Sometimes we're going to be we can be in a leadership role, sometimes we're going to be in a serving role, and sometimes we can be in both roles at the same time. Because I mean, just because you're leading doesn't mean you're not serving, because you're. Just because everybody beneath you who's helping to support you and the mission that you're on with them doesn't mean that they can't see that you are also in that position with whoever's above you. I think we forget. It's kind of like a ladder that we're all helping each other up that ladder.

Speaker 3 43:02

Right, and you can think of it too with writing, painting, any creative endeavor or hobby. It's a way to be the creative one, be the one who sets the tone, whether it's what you're painting or what you're writing, even though you may work at the post office where you're just serving people all day, or something like that.

Speaker 2 43:26

Yeah, I know and I do see how storytelling is a means to entertain, to educate, to help us instigate change, and obviously all of those. I honestly think how do you think your stories are impacting people? I mean, I know they're there to entertain, but do you think it's also?

Speaker 3 43:51

I give a little bit of education too. That's one of the things I love about Michael Crichton's writing, whether it's Jurassic Park or Andromeda Strain or whatever, and it shows up in his movies as well. You get a little behind the scenes look and you get a little education on the scientific method, how investigations are done, that kind of thing. So I try to do a little of that without making it you know a technical manual, without making it boring. So certainly that.

Speaker 3 44:23

And like guys in checkout time, I tried to give a little bit behind the scenes of things like the FBI. I actually toured an FBI office in Knoxville, a field office for checkout time, and you pick up little bits and pieces which you can then add to authenticity to the story. That gives it a little bit more flavor. It gets it as if you can think I'm actually looking back there, I'm actually following along like a movie in the mind. So in that respect I think education I hope to pass on a little bit of at least education experience on the reader and entertain them and hopefully give them some relief from like a stressful day or something. Sit down and read a good book that entertains and takes you to another era and lets you experience that the thrills and the dangers, in a safe environment.

Speaker 2 45:23

Yeah, no, and I and I definitely think that's a very universal, you know, goal that authors have, or any creative personality has, and to kind of help thread all that and help us just kind of escape to from our day to day. So how do individual stories, do you think, contribute to the larger human narrative, to help us feel connected?

Speaker 3 45:57

Well, I mean, I think we all have a connection through what we've read. You know, it forms your opinions, it educates those kind of things. So I think in that respect, anybody who's read Stephen King can get together and talk like they're all friends, for example. Or aaron moore, leonard fan, you can talk about the books and the movies and uh, it's a connection that way where we're all, uh, what we've read kind of makes us a family when you follow an author or things like that. So I I think that certainly is part of it, um, um and and if characters are written well and stuff, and uh, you empathize with them.

Speaker 2 46:59

I think that's also a connection, you know, where people feel other people's pain and suffering yeah, I definitely think it helps us grow an awareness and helps us kind of look at our own biases and things that we're afraid of. I definitely think it helps us kind of get more of that introspect. I know, when I've read books and I know we mentioned Lord of the Rings earlier like I think, you know, if I was ever tasked with something, you know, like Frodo, would I be able to have that strength and courage and I mean, you see, like he wavers, he questions that himself. So I think it does help us kind of do that. And then when we, like are in book clubs or we find a story that we really love and we want to share it with somebody that you know, we're friends with or family, we're like, hey, this is really great, I think we carry over. This is why we. This is how the story impacted me. Hopefully it impacts you in a similar way.

Speaker 2 48:02

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think so. Yeah, I think that's great. So what, looking ahead, you know, what legacy do you hope your stories are going to leave behind? What lasting impressions are you hoping readers are going to carry away from your series?

Speaker 3 48:19

Well, I hope that people, as I said number one, be entertained and say you know what? That gave me a little bit of enjoyment and relaxation at a time when I needed it. I you know that this guy writes pretty well. What else has he written? You know, what else can I read like that? That's, that's what I hope to get. You know, we all like to leave a legacy and I hope, the body of my writing, whatever I can write in the next 20 years or so, anyway, we'll do that. You know that people will say, hey, this was an enjoyable read and I thought the characters were real, it touched me. I want to read the next one or the next thing.

Speaker 2 49:13

No, it's.

Speaker 3 49:15

Speaking of which, I do have a second book coming out in 2025. Yes, it is unrelated to the others that I've written. It's called the Peeper oh, and it's the story of a serial killer who takes his victims from social media and a kind of milquetoast bureaucrat who gets caught up in the search for him and gets framed for him.

Speaker 2 49:45

That's interesting. Is it just because of all the stuff that's been going on with social media and how we literally like sit with our phones in front of our faces?

Speaker 3 49:54

Yeah, that's kind of one of the things that I, that you know it's and I can be guilty of it too and it's like you don't know who's on the other end. When you're like in a, in a direct message or a chat room or uh, or just following somebody along, you don't really know that much about them and, uh, there's potentially dangerous people out there yeah, there there is um.

Speaker 2 50:23

I don't talk about it. Uh well, friends and family know, but I don't talk about really every other podcast. But back before dating websites were a thing and so you would go into like um. You know the online gaming scenario, you know realm was starting to open up and stuff and so you had like the chat rooms or you could. If there was like a topic you liked, you could go and then research more, and they had like the chat rooms so you could talk to the other people.

Speaker 2 50:48

So my husband and I met um online okay in chat rooms and we actually conversed for a few months.

Speaker 3 50:56

He's not a serial killer, is he?

Speaker 2 50:58

no, no and I can honestly say, because he's had to do a psych eval, because he actually works in public safety, so I can honestly say I mean he may have tendencies, but yeah, he cleared. He was cleared by the government that he was safe to work. So but yeah, we, we talked back and forth via email and stuff. We didn't even know what each other looked like when he sent me his picture. I kid you not, john, it looked so he was. I won't say what. We lived in California at the time. I won't say who he was helping during that time campaign. That way nobody knows which party line that was affiliated with. But anyways, so he's standing next to that candidate in the photo, but because it was with the campaign poster and stuff behind when he sent it to me.

Speaker 2 51:47

I thought he literally cut it out of the freaking newspaper and just behind when he sent it to me, I thought he literally cut it out of the freaking newspaper and just sent me some random like I didn't believe it, because I was like how do I know this is really you like, for all I know you cut this out the newspaper there's always the stories of the, you know, the, uh, the, the, the, the pervert for want of a better term trying to seduce the young girl, or whatever, uh saying he's also a young girl, you know, and stuff like yeah you don't know you get a picture, you can put it up there.

Speaker 2 52:16

It's uh yeah, I didn't. I did not believe him, um at all, and I even had to like, when I finally, when he asked me for a phone number, I like gave him my mom's number and I'd go to her house and take the calls, because I was like there's no way in heck, I'm going to like I don't know who you are.

Speaker 3 52:31

Yet I heard somebody joke the other day. They said I was told as growing up to never get in a car with a stranger. Now I call Uber and get into a car with a total stranger, you know yeah.

Speaker 2 52:47

Society has changed so much. So I think that's interesting that you have a. You know that you're doing a story on that, because even though we've had technologies I mean because my kids have grown up with it so I mean technology has been around for 20 years, yeah, you know, in different facets of where it is now today, I mean those are still real realities to our society that you still don't, even though we're a little bit more trusting and and that gets us back to that dark half of the multiple personalities of things.

Speaker 3 53:18

You know, people, a lot of people, uh, get depressed because, oh, everybody else on facebook or on twitter or whatever is got such a much better life than me. You're just seeing one part of it. Yeah, you're seeing what they want to show you. You know, there's the old poem Simon and Garfunkel made into a song about Richard Corey, the man who had power, grace style, money, and one day he goes home and blows his brains out.

Speaker 2 53:47

Yeah, Well, which makes me actually think of Robin Williams, every thought, because he was a comedian. He did all these, you know, really deeply introspective movies to comedic movies and you know, I mean I remember cause I worked out in LA and the Hollywood area at the time hearing that he would hire the homeless to work on the productions that he did.

Speaker 1 54:13

And.

Speaker 2 54:13

I was like, oh my gosh, that's so amazing, he's such an amazing. And then, all of a sudden, you know he did. He took his own life. Nobody knew how depressed he really was.

Speaker 3 54:21

Yeah, it's you never.

Speaker 2 54:23

my mom used to always say she passed away a few years ago, but used to always say you never know what's really going on yeah, it's, it's so true and I and I really feel like that's what art does, it's it's that the creative collective that helps us reflect, um be drawn into story, you know, be that you're looking at a painting and you're getting drawn in, or just what you're, you know, perceiving from the image that you're looking at. I think those that it's that creative ability that allows us as a society to cope, deal, understand, be introspective in so many aspects of our lives. And if we lost the create, creative side of who we are, um, you know, I think it would be a detriment if we just went complete, and not that I'm saying ai is going to ever do that, but I always wonder, the more and more we get into technology, like, are we losing those creative parts of who we are?

Speaker 3 55:25

yeah, most. Uh, I write short stories too and you know you submit and they're always a thing that says uh, please check that you have not used ai in the writing of this, and I never do, never use ai. So I, I check. You know that that's the case and but I always wonder is it gotten good enough where something written by AI these people would want to publish? And I don't know.

Speaker 2 55:56

No, that's a good question.

Speaker 3 55:57

I don't know how good it's gotten, but you know, if it's, is it good enough to fool you as a publisher, as an editor, Make it. Would it be that interesting?

Speaker 2 56:11

Yeah, because I wonder, because it can't empathize, it can't have compassion, it doesn't feel. So, yeah, it makes you wonder how much of the human side is missing in its writing compared to authentic humans writing, and the fact that it's so scary that sometimes it can't be detected really makes me concerned about us as, as you know, humans in this world well, we were talking about social media and sometimes somebody will you know, uh, as an author and stuff, you, you attract people.

Advice for Writers and Readers

Speaker 3 56:47

Sometimes someone will DM me something and you know hi, how are you? And I always think, okay, what are you after? But sometimes they say you can tell that what they're replying with. You say, well, what do you do? What do you do for a living? And you can see it's almost like an AI generated thing. I am an engineer, I do. It's like a definition. You could say, okay, you're not really who you say you are, or whatever, and just end it right there.

Speaker 2 57:25

Yeah, it's crazy where it's gotten, but anyways, let's bring it back to to the, because we're getting to the top of the hour here at on the podcast. So what, what would you want to impart to those who are readers, those who are trying to develop their creative you know writing ability, artistic side? What? What would you like to impart to our listeners on that?

Speaker 3 57:50

Well, as far as writers, there's several things. First of all, read a lot and write a lot. I hear people say, well, I don't want, I don't read because I don't want to be influenced by other. It's like no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't learn how to do this without reading. Good writers Read as many as you can think of, read mostly in the genres you want to write, but read widely. So that's what I would say as far as writing goes, and don't have a thin skin. Rejection is not the exception, it's the norm. Rejection is not the exception, it's the norm.

Speaker 3 58:32

Uh, you know, stephen King used to say back before we had a computer, files and stuff. He'd say uh, what you do is you, you drive a nail into the like your attic, uh, rafter, and every rejection you get you slip it on that nail. And when it gets all full of rejection slips, then you drive another nail. And when it gets all full of rejection slips, then you drive another nail. It's, uh, it's, it just keeps coming. You know, um, hopefully. You know, I've been more fortunate. When I first started writing short stories about 10 years ago. Uh, you know, if I got one published in a year, I was like ecstatic, and I think I've had nine published this past year that's great so, uh, so, yeah, so be persistent, uh, and you've got to treat it like a hobby and a business.

Speaker 3 59:18

It's like a business because you do it every day, you develop a routine. Um. It's like a hobby because of all this rejection. You couldn't do it just for the money or just for the accolades. You have to do it because you enjoy doing it. You know that's. I think that. Or you're driven to do it, as some people say, I'm more of an addict. You know I have to write, um, so that's for for the writers, for the readers. Uh, read what you read what you enjoy. If you do enjoy something, let the author know.

Speaker 3 59:54

Leave an Amazon review, a Goodreads review, send an email through their website Say I really enjoyed whatever, because it is so difficult to write with all the rejection and stuff. It's nice to get positive feedback. I just got feedback the other day from somebody I met at a conference a couple years ago and they said I purchased your book and it finally came up on my to-do, to-read list and I really enjoyed it. I wanted to tell you Project Suicide. I thought you just hit the nail on the right amount of technical and stuff.

Speaker 2 1:00:28

You know it made my day. No, I think that's great, and I love the fact that you also talk about the thick skin. I think that applies to everybody, because, you know, rejection and failure isn't a bad thing. It's how we learn and how we grow. And so and I think writers, artists, those who are in the movie industry, singers, everybody you know who's on the I really think that that's probably the biggest thing, that that you teach the rest of us is you know, failure is just one step to the path of where you want to be, because it helps you learn and grow.

Speaker 3 1:01:08

And rejection is not always about not being good. Sometimes, certainly sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's, for example, writing short stories. If you don't hit the theme that they're looking for, it's going to be rejected just on that basis. Rejected just on that basis, you know it's. Or you know you're trying to get an agent or whatever, and they don't handle this genre, or you know they're looking for some other types of topics. It's not always about that. As a matter of fact, a lot of times it's not.

Speaker 2 1:01:45

I think there's a lot of good writers who get rejected for these ancillary reasons yeah, like I said, there's, there's, always there's, there's a reason and a purpose, and you just got to find what that was and keep moving forward. So, yeah, it's, it's definitely where, where we grow and and overcoming obstacles. I mean, that's what we, that's what we love stories to begin with, because that's what we see characters do and and so it's really what life is teaching us consistently. All the time. It's polishing our diamond.

Speaker 3 1:02:17

I teach a workshop on using research in fiction and I try to tell people that it's like you know, the tendency is, especially with Google and all that stuff, how easy it is to get research things. That used's like you know, the tendency is, especially with google and all that stuff, how easy it is to get research things that used to take you weeks and months of laborious research back in the 1980s, for example, you can now do in an hour. Uh, almost literally. The tendency is to put too much in, uh say, look how smart I am, I've learned all this. You went and learned it too, but that's not the point of your writing.

Speaker 3 1:02:51

The point of your writing is the characters, their trials and tribulations, their obstacles that they overcome, their motives, how they interact with each other, and you just use the research for the seasoning. That kind of gets their attention and says, okay, this guy knows what he's talking about, so that's. That's an important thing to not get caught up in. Whether you're doing historical research or whether you're doing technical research, like for Project Suicide or whatever. Don't make it a technical manual. It's, it's the characters and they're there. They're the plot and what they're doing and how they're interacting and how they're overcoming obstacles. That's what people are interested in.

Speaker 2 1:03:33

Right yeah, Because overall, I mean, isn't that what we're all interested in real life is? You know where we can progressively find that, whatever our finish line is. Well, if you think about it, writing.

Promoting Books and Writing Community

Speaker 3 1:03:47

I always say writing is like a soup or a stew. It's 90%. You're distilling down people's lives. 90, 95% of what people do is boring from day to day and that's the water in the soup. The characters, their trials and tribunals. That's the meat and potatoes and the research that's the spice to meat and potatoes and the research that's the spice.

Speaker 2 1:04:08

No, I love that. That's, that's awesome. Well, John, we're we're toward the end of the show. So I just want to say it's been a pleasure speaking with you today and thank you for sharing your insights, your experiences. I know Dom is gonna, you know, when he's working on this on the backend. He'll appreciate you taking the time to you know, share with our listeners, and with me today, your perspectives and knowledge, and hopefully they all take away something really interesting. We do look forward to your future works. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we go?

Speaker 3 1:04:41

Well, I first want to say thanks for having me and pass on my condolences to Dominic. My condolences to Dominic Also. If people want to get my books, they're on Amazon. Checkout Time and Project Suicide are on Amazon. They're in Barnes Noble, wherever Ingram distributes. The easiest way to get them is CheckoutTimeNovelcom all one word, or ProjectSuicideNovelcom takes you right to Amazon and if you enjoy them, as I hope, you will leave a review.

Speaker 2 1:05:11

Yeah, well, thank you, and we'll have all those in our show link down below so you guys will be able to find all that information as well and John's bio. So thank you so much for coming on, it's been a real pleasure.

Speaker 3 1:05:24

Well, thank you, virginia, my pleasure.

Speaker 2 1:05:26

You're welcome.

Speaker 1 1:05:27

And for our listeners remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.