The Animation Renaissance with Disney veteran Dominick Domingo

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Join Language of the Soul host Dominick Domingo and his former student Janna Van Vliet from Amsterdam as they reminisce about the ‘Animation Renaissance.’ We break format in this special episode by giving Janna the opportunity to pick Dominick’s brain for the benefit of listeners—about everything from the lore surrounding this unique pop culture moment to nostalgic, first-hand anecdotes from the trenches of production on Lion King, Pocahontas, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Tarzan, Little Match Girl and One By One. We also discuss the nuances of Art Education, how the academic arena has evolved over time, and Dominick’s personal experience both founding the Entertainment Track at his alma mater, Art Center College of Design, and amassing twenty years of classroom experience therein.  www.dominickdomingo.com

 Guest Host BIO:
Janna VanVliet is an energetic visual development artist who loves to create worlds and environments that tell a story - to mentally get into a place and make it speak. She generally is a sucker for heartfelt and emotional story moments. Moments she has to rip out of her heart. You will enjoy having Janna on your team for her organized work, unwavering team spirit and a possible dad joke here and there.
website https://www.creativejanna.nl
The Faraway project Book https://www.creativejanna.nl/s/The_Art_Of_Faraway_compressed01.pdf

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Transcript

Animation Industry Insights With Jana

Speaker 1 0:45

Hello and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast, where life is story. We have a very special episode today. As I sometimes say, and that's a disclaimer they would often put on 70s sitcoms. By the way, it was an early trigger warning, very special episode and we're kind of breaking format in that Virginia is not joining us today, but I'm taking the opportunity because it's the rare occasion where we actually don't have a bunch of episodes in the wings waiting to drop. So I wanted to take this opportunity to do something I've been dying to do, which is talk about myself and my career a little bit.

Speaker 1 1:22

In short, some of you regular listeners do know I've had animation guests on here and there Don Hahn, the producer of Lion King for God's sake, that was a very good get. And then Andres Deja, one of the top, most legendary Disney animators of all time. Did all the villains Scar, jafar, triton, hercules who's not a villain, but you get the idea. Anyway, those were really good gets and very fun for me because I'm so nostalgic about my time at Disney Feature Animation. But for the most part, I really haven't had the satisfaction of talking about my 11 years at Disney. It was a huge, significant part of my life and although we've had actors on this podcast, we've had live action filmmakers whom I met in the festival circuit, a couple of actors, if I didn't already say that, but really have not talked shop. We have not talked specifically about anything from the production pipeline or the making of an animated film, start to finish. And again, regular listeners will know that's not what we're really about. We're about storytelling, the cultural impact of storytelling, what it serves on the micro and macro level, both, and we don't really talk technique or craft a whole lot, but I'm hoping for a balance here.

Speaker 1 2:37

I have a lot of information. I founded the entertainment track, some of you know, at Art Center College of Design, which is my alma mater, and I do have a lot of academic information to offer if it comes up. But for the most part we're just all about why we tell stories in the first place, not necessarily what I call the nuts and bolts of craft or technique, anyway, but there is a wealth of information there and, to be honest, like I have 22 nieces and nephews, one of them will say oh, lion King absolutely inspired me to start Cougar Conservancy, which is, some of you may know, the main nonprofit organization that's behind the Wildlife Bridge here in LA. So very proud of my niece. She's very active and very passionate and she will say little Simba is the reason she went that route. However, other than that, I'm kind of like the uncle. It's kind of like the shoemaker's children my 22 nieces and nephews other than me getting them into Disneyland on my silver pass, have never asked me a single question about Disney. So I just feel like, why not? I have a wealth of information. Yes, I'm feeling my mortality and my legacy is very important, so I do want to leave a record of that. But, more importantly, why not? There's a lot that I think would be of interest to our listeners. Okay, so that said I I was very motivated to do this and I reached out at one point saying through CTN again, tina Price, we've talked a little bit about this organization called CTN.

Speaker 1 4:09

Ctn Expo is the largest animation convention in the world and I've been involved since its inception over 15 years ago. So I participate every year in some capacity, whether it's portfolio reviews or panel discussions or demonstrations, or even just having a booth and selling my own wares. I've been involved forever. So I reached out through CTN and I just said hey, is there a student that would benefit from interviewing me? I wanted it to be mutually beneficial and just really somebody that was passionate about animation and sincerely, earnestly curious. If I speak to a colleague about animation it becomes kind of name dropping and talking shop and I just wasn't that interested.

Speaker 1 4:53

So, anyway, somebody came forward whom I adore. She was in my class. Briefly, she's an international student that participated from abroad, but she did appear one day in our classroom and it was a delight. But I think she is greener. I would say you can tell us, jana, when I invite you into the room, exactly how much work you've been doing in the field. I know you are working, but you're rather new to the field. So I'm calling you a student, but I will read your bio and it'll speak for itself. But I will say I do love your passion for animation, I love how immersed you are in the culture and the fact that you participate in CTN and all of that. So, and she's very articulate, a great conversationalist, and so I went with Jana and I'm gonna read her bio. Sorry, I'm talking so fast. I want to get to her. I'll read her bio and then invite her into the room. So, without any further ado.

Speaker 1 5:48

Jana von Vliet is an energetic visual development artist who loves to create worlds and environments that tell a story. You're already speaking our language to mentally get into a place and make it speak. She generally is a sucker for heartfelt and emotional story moments, moments she has to rip out of her heart. I love that. You will enjoy having Jana on your team for her organized work, unwavering team spirit and a possible dad joke here and there. I've heard a few from you. All right, welcome Jana van Vliet.

Speaker 2 6:19

Hello, hi, so happy to be here and what an honor this is.

Speaker 1 6:24

Wow, well, thank you for being here in cyberspace. Where are you exactly in the Netherlands for being here in cyberspace?

Speaker 2 6:28

Where are you exactly in the.

Speaker 1 6:31

Netherlands. I'm in Amsterdam.

Speaker 2 6:32

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 6:32

The easy part? Yeah well, the easy access, that's for sure, If you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 6:37

That's what they say.

Speaker 1 6:39

It is the stereotype, isn't it?

Speaker 2 6:42

Yeah, the Brits seem to think so. Yeah, irish, yeah, right.

Speaker 1 6:52

No, I've always considered it the go-to for certain things. I don't know, is it progressive and liberal, would you say. That's the reputation um.

Speaker 2 6:59

You know what? Amsterdam is just one big amusement park for tourists we don't go here, it's so typical isn't it yeah? You cannot even talk dutch there. So it's um, yeah, if you want to, if you want to see dutch stuff, go to itrecht or rotterdam or I don't know. There's so many other options that will have the architecture, but then you'll have the dutch culture with it as well instead of everybody trying to shove stroopwafels in your face everywhere.

Speaker 1 7:34

I'm guessing that's a pastry of some kind. What is that?

Speaker 2 7:36

Yeah, I believe I brought them for you. Oh, do you remember those waffle thingies with the syrup?

Speaker 1 7:43

Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, we call them stroopwafels again. Oh sure, Of course. Of course. Stroopwafels, yeah Well, again in English, fruit waffles. I love those, I love to melt them. You taught me to set it on top of my coffee cup until it was soft and gooey.

Speaker 2 7:57

This is so important, they also put it on the packaging now.

Speaker 1 8:01

Right, right, it's so funny I'm tempted to ask about tulips and wooden shoes and all that, but I do think I mean mean you can tell me if you find this to be true. It's kind of typical in a cosmopolitan area you don't get the local color because it is a lot of transplants or tourists. But I do agree, like here in Hollywood. I'm five minutes from Hollywood and I've never taken a TMZ tour of the stars homes or when you're in your own hometown you don't do the touristy things okay.

Speaker 2 8:31

So I have a really short funny story. Angela Soong was here in the Netherlands for playgrounds and she wanted to see tulips. She was at the right time it's only from April to July or something and there we have this big. It's called kökenhof. It's an amusement park with flowers and there's tons of tulips there. Nobody goes there.

Speaker 1 8:56

I think I've seen footage of that.

Speaker 2 8:57

Okay, yeah, yeah, don't go there except for when you have tourist friends that need to see tulips. I had a few friends with me and we were with five in total and we were just like looking around like huh, no Dutch folk here at all.

Speaker 1 9:14

That's funny, that's so funny.

Speaker 2 9:16

It's like vacationing in your own country, it's typical.

Speaker 1 9:19

Well, and then I've had the experience, because I did work, I mean to kind of steer it toward Disney. I worked in the Paris studio for a few months, yes, and so I made friends with a lot of artists over there. And, anyway, inevitably when any of my French friends come here, I also worked in Jerusalem at one point. So whenever I have a visitor to LA, they go oh well, number one, they want to go to Vegas. And I'm like but we have the Grand Canyon, we have Bryce Canyon, the entire state of Utah, right, we have some beautiful topography here, and they want to go to Vegas.

Speaker 2 9:50

Because we want to see the stars on the floor right.

Speaker 1 9:53

Right, well, that's the walk of fame. Yeah, the point is it's what's different from their culture. But I'm like, vegas is sleazy. I have horrible memories from childhood never done it properly as an adult and seen a show, and you get the idea, but you know. Speaking of the walk of Fame, yeah, my Jean-Claude, the friend that I'm thinking of and was trying not to mention his name. He visited from Paris and I went to work at an art center to go teach a class and I left him in my apartment. He walked. He walked from my apartment to the Walk of Fame, which is literally through the armpit of LA. It's not pretty. He walked through the armpit of LA to get to the walk of fame. And that night, when I got home from teaching, I said, well, how was your day? And he said something like the American dream is dead, because all he saw was the gum slathered on the sidewalk and the French fries stuck to the star.

Speaker 2 10:56

And I'm like, let me give you your agenda for the day. I should never have left him alone. Yeah, that, um, for me it's quite a culture shock as well. I, um, this year was the first year that I, or last year was the first year that I got through my jet lag and got to experience America a bit better. Um, all your, all the roads have cracks in them, all the sidewalks have cracks in them, and here in, at least here in the Netherlands, that's like a sign of poverty or like bad neighborhoods. Um, but that wasn't the case.

Speaker 2 11:28

I was in Pasadena, right near the convention center so now I finally noticed that you look at the trees. If there is a lot of trees and at the side of the road, that means the neighborhood is good. So now, interesting, interesting yeah so now I just went back and I remember that some american friends were like oh my God, yes, and your cities are so green and there's trees everywhere.

Speaker 1 11:55

And.

Speaker 2 11:55

I'm like no, no, no, we don't have like actual nature, like our country is too small. We have everything built up and then you know what are you talking about.

Speaker 1 12:03

But now I'll jump in though just add to that. You know I do defend LA sometimes but I have my own complaints, you know. But I will just say, even when I go, like to Washington DC to visit a friend, for example, I will say, oh my God, even the freeway exits, the freeway entrances and exits are landscaped and everything is just greener on the East Coast. But more importantly, there's upkeep, so it's called infrastructure. You just greener on the East Coast, but more importantly, there's upkeep, so it's called infrastructure. You have to have a budget for infrastructure and I would agree with you that many, many major cosmopolitan areas and cities in this country are neglected. There is no money for the infrastructure.

Speaker 1 12:41

But LA is unique in that number one it's a desert. Without the irrigation it would be a desert. And beyond that, it's so geographically spread out, more so than really any other city, with mountains in between. Right there's a mountain in between Hollywood and the San Fernando Valley. So there are more neglected areas in LA, I would say, than anywhere else because it's so geographically enormous. I agree with you, if I was president tomorrow, I would get rid of above ground power lines they're hideous. I would get rid of a lot of the visual pollution, and that includes yeah, I have heard one statistic that even if there was a budget in LA to take care of all the needed road repair, it would take eight years.

Speaker 2 13:27

To be honest, I don't think it's that big of a problem. I felt safe, Like once I understood it. I felt safe. I was good.

Speaker 1 13:36

It does break my heart, like in my area. It's very spotty, you can go one block and the property values are very high. The next block, the property values plummet, but I don't like to see really beautiful homes. And then, yeah, cracks or road repair. That's visible. They'll put a cinder over a little crack, but it doesn't blend in with the asphalt, so I don't like that when you have a really beautiful neighborhood and it's, it is spoiled by the horrible anyway it's not that important.

Speaker 2 14:04

I I saw the people and you know I was happy I mean to tie it to the spirit of the podcast.

Speaker 1 14:10

We care about aesthetics because we're artists, but anyway I do defend la I. The main thing I'll say is where else can you go to the beach, go skiing and surfing in one day you go 20 minutes to the mountains. You go 20 minutes to the beach, go 20 minutes in another direction and you're in the desert and the weather can't beat the weather and that is if you have a car yeah, well, public transportation, that's another thing.

Speaker 1 14:36

Again, it's because we are geographically spread out, so public transportation has never been sufficient. But what you may not know is ford motor company sabotaged our subway system. We were one of the first cities in this country with an underground subway system and they had an agenda to make this the first quote, unquote driving city. So they did buy out the contracts and that's why it's still never come around and it's geographically spread out. It would be nearly impossible to get public transportation to reach all of the areas. So if you take a subway, you still have to get off. Then take a bus, then walk three miles wherever you're going.

Speaker 2 15:17

I have to say I totally managed and I mastered the public transportation last year, Like I did everything by public transportation.

Speaker 1 15:25

Did you have an app?

Speaker 2 15:26

Yes, did you have an app?

Speaker 1 15:27

Yes, oh yeah, the app helps for sure.

Speaker 2 15:31

Yes and the card no. Google Maps is already enough, actually.

Speaker 1 15:36

It's getting there. I mean, trust me, in my lifetime public transportation has improved immensely. But you go to San Francisco, for example, you've got the BART and the Muni, you know you can really reach everywhere. And I lived in Brooklyn and Union Station in Manhattan and I kind of navigated that whole island and it's far superior to LA. Anyway, I don't want to defend my hometown anymore, I understand all the complaints.

Speaker 2 16:02

No, let's talk about you. I mean, I'm here for that. You finally allowed me to talk shop with you and ask all these questions, so I want to take advantage of this.

Teaching Methods and Learning Styles

Speaker 1 16:14

Absolutely. I'm down, I'm ready to roll, other than just for our listeners. Strangely, we are in the middle of speaking of the weather. In LA, we do have the Santa Anas and every year they cause wildfires. Well, some of you will know, although we're not launching this for probably a couple more weeks, we are in the middle of a bunch of fires and I'm right in the middle of all of them. So I'm going to do my best here. My voice is kind of not there and my head's a little fuzzy from the smoke. I'll be honest, I'll try to be linear and make some sense what you got.

Speaker 2 16:46

Okay, otherwise I'll do the sense making and you just talk.

Speaker 1 16:51

Perfect, I'll just babble and you can try to make something.

Speaker 2 16:52

Exactly. I will make something out of it, right, okay, so, um, first of all, I want to tell you that there's a lot of you about you, to to admire, to all the people that have not met you yet in person. Dominic domingo is such a fun character, also to draw, but also to listen to. There is no one that can teach well. There are few that can teach so concise and are so well versed in their craft and also have that many synonyms and are that well spoken right well, yes, yes, that's wow, thank you.

Speaker 1 17:34

I am not paying her to sing my praises, I'm really not paying her for that, but thank you. It's interesting. You say synonyms, though, because in my teaching I have said because at art center I've often had many international students with language barriers. So so I do say I will. You know, repetition is the key to learning, as they say. So over the course of 14 weeks I will repeat because it's the key to learning. So by the end of the 14 week class it has landed with everyone, even the ones with a language barrier. So it's funny you said synonyms, because I do try to say things in different ways until they land with everybody in the room, and I like live teaching more than online teaching. For that reason. You can see the nonverbal communication, you can see the nods or not. If they're not getting it, you can tell immediately, right?

Speaker 2 18:21

By the way, did you know that, apparently, when people are processing information, they blink with their eyes? If they don't do that, they are not processing what is happening.

Speaker 1 18:33

Interesting. Yeah, we could do, truly, we could do a whole podcast on that, because there are new studies every day and you know where I mean. This is what our podcast is about. I taught for 20 years. I have those 22 nieces and nephews and I can tell you I see the differences with each incoming generation really not every incoming generation, but every graduating class, because in the 20 years that I taught at our center they began recruiting directly from high schools.

Speaker 1 19:02

So I have a lot of observations, but I also try to keep my finger on the pulse and learn about the, you know Wallace model, for you know how there's like kinetic learners and there's visual learners. There's all kinds of learners. So when it comes to art, you know you have only so many modes of transmitting the information. There's demonstration, lecture, grit and in-class exercise that tends to hit all the different types of learners. But I'll just give you an example, because you kind of hinted at this.

Speaker 1 19:33

I have a niece that says oh no, I need to doodle to allow my brain. I guess she's probably switching over to the right brain, but she claims she has to doodle in order to receive the information and hear it. So you have a lot of neurodivergency in young folks today. And you can't argue if they tell you I need to doodle and I'm the guy who wants eye contact and if I'm writing on the board, of course I want you to look at what I'm writing on the board. So now we have newer generations that want to take a cell phone picture of the board, transcribe on a laptop instead of actually writing notes or just record on your phone. You record a lecture on your phone. You are missing out on a step in which the information is ingrained.

Speaker 1 20:18

So when one takes yeah, when one actually uses his motor, his or her motor skills to take notes, you are engaging both hemispheres of the brain. But, more importantly, if you're transcribing or recording the lecture, you're missing out on the process by which these concepts are distilled into holistic concepts that can be carried forward into other situations. If you don't do that, it just goes in one ear and out the other.

Speaker 2 20:44

So, basically, you just demonstrated the good teacher that you are and indeed how well you can synonymize through the whole thing. See, right there you proved my point.

Speaker 1 20:57

We're always evolving. The new generations are what they are. Technology is affecting them, as is social media and the ways in which it's going to affect them. There's many studies on how the brainstem has already been affected. Affect them.

Speaker 2 21:11

There's many studies on how the brainstem has already been affected. You know, and I heard in one of your podcasts like little children that get the mobile device, that now have the extra things in there.

Speaker 1 21:19

That's actually the insertion point of the tendons, are causing those nodules on the back of the skull. So I use that as a silly example because it's horrific to think about. But our guest, rosalind Lehman, talked a little more about the studies in which the brainstem itself is actually affected. But the point is you can't control that. We're going to evolve. But I point out what I just did to say you know what the tried and true methods of teaching really are still for the most part working. So if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I do think we're so. The culture is, at least in this country. It's about accommodating. Yeah, neurodivergence, all things non-binary, so it's good to accommodate. There are different types of learners, but once you hit them all, like I said, with lecture, crit, demonstration, in-class exercise and you do the repetition I'm talking about, you've done your job.

ArtCenter Teaching Methods and Learning Styles

Speaker 2 22:12

Beyond that, I think it's an excuse to say, oh no, I have to doodle and not pay attention for the information to enter my brain I kind of have the same, but I suspect there might be um a little like brain rot in there, something, because you're used to getting all these uh flashes of stuff the whole time that it's hard to focus on one thing for a longer time so if you then, uh, occupy your brain with something else, um then you can sort of still have listen because like have a diversion yeah yeah yeah, but I'm an old man, I'm not going to cater to cultural ADD.

Speaker 1 22:53

No, I'm agreeing with you here it is a form of cultural ADD. We are overstimulated all day, every day, and, yes, in social media, so the attention span is simply not there.

Speaker 1 23:13

So, let me segue very elegantly into how was the learning back when you went to school Interesting? Very great segue. Yeah, you're good. You should have your own podcast. I would say all I can talk about is the culture at ArtCenter Because of course I got my general education. I can speak to the junior college system here in Southern California, but I would say more germane to us creatives and art center. It definitely didn't cater, as do the Waldorf schools. Creativity wasn't really a consideration in public school and you didn't have an acknowledgement of the different types of learning that we're talking about, trying to reach everybody with their neurodivergence. But anyway, at ArtCenter, you know it has a I'm sure you've heard it has a reputation for being for the instructors being hard asses.

Speaker 2 23:59

Well, it has now Did it back then oh yeah, no, I think more so in the past.

Speaker 1 24:04

Oh, they would say, oh, they'll kick the shit out of you week one. Oh, they'll kick the shit out of you week one. And once you're, once you have no pride left, then you start learning. There were a lot of myths and you'd hear like, oh, carmian or uh Hogarth or some old school professor, literally lined up our pieces from best to worst and you get humiliated in front of the class. Oh, this guy pulled off my painting off the crit rail and stomped on it and poured coffee on it. You hear a lot of horror stories. I didn't experience that and nobody in my class did. I had Berne Hogarth, I had Carmian, I had all the old school instructors.

Speaker 1 24:38

But there was an understanding and it did carry over. It doesn't fly now, right, none of it flies now. But even tough love in the interest of the student, none of it flies now because we have, as a private college I would say, the old old boy network art center got away with murder for a long time. And now because WASC and some of the accreditation boards cracked down and made us standardize our entire curricula for their purposes. And also just, the world has changed, culture has changed. So now there's a diversity and inclusion department and I think it's called Title VI and they're very hands-on.

Speaker 1 25:18

But I did say, you know, in the interim, where society was shifting and some of the old school techniques, like we wanted to preserve the legacy of ArtCenter, we know how our instructors taught us and we value that then, yeah, it doesn't fly anymore. What are we going to do with this? And, to be honest, most of the uh student body, it's just korean money right now, because that's where the money's at oh, I heard that oh my god, 12 of 20, 12 out of my 20 students were lee's, woo's, yonzer parks, so it's the elephant in the room.

Speaker 1 25:50

Now we have often language barriers, although they actually have an English test. You have to have a certain level of English because we're teaching in English, but it's the elephant in the room, you can't say any of that. So teaching became very tricky. But I guess my point was in the interim where it was very awkward. I would try to explain to my students that I try to explain the myths. When they say, oh, art Center kicks the shit out of you, I would say no, it's more like you learn over time.

Speaker 1 26:21

In your early terms you slowly figure it out that we're all on the same page. My peers, my fellow students really actually want me to do my best work. There can be competition Hopefully it's healthy competition but when a student speaks up during a crit, they actually want to up my game In teaching. You see pride. You see defensiveness. It takes a million forms, sometimes it's humor, but you see the defensiveness because it is very vulnerable. You know, when you express yourself through your art, then you have to present it and open yourself up to criticism. It's very vulnerable, but the thick skin that you supposedly develop has nothing to do with anyone kicking the shit out of you. It has to do with you learning. Yeah, everybody's here to support me. My instructor wants me to do my best work, my peers want me to do my best work. So suddenly the trust just evolves and it becomes a safe space well, that's good too the myths about a tough art center are overblown and it's more like you grow up.

Speaker 1 27:28

You right, you can call it developing thick skin, but you just simply mature and you realize we're all here for the same reason but I mean that's part of learning, um, and I mean about the methods.

Speaker 2 27:40

If you indeed got kicked in the butt, um, that could have been like great for some students and not so well for others, and I think the current methods will probably not be so good for these and great for the others. I know, uh, I know someone who was schooled in russia, uh, water paint, so don't even start with. There is white watercolor, because that does not exist right, that's gouache.

Speaker 2 28:09

That's called gouache, right, a lot of purists, yeah but see that's, that's a completely different, um well, sport almost. And he came out the way he came out as well. You, you, you roll with the punches. You learn what you can learn from this institution or that one, and if it doesn't gel with you, maybe go somewhere else, like go study with dominic domingo at ctn.

Speaker 1 28:40

Guys, I agree with you. I've often said that everything is what you make it, right. Yeah, so everything is a learning opportunity and if you're're judicious, you just have to commit. During these two hours that I'm in this classroom, I'm going to understand that everything is what you make it and I'm going to be receptive and open. It doesn't mean you need to join anyone's cult, because you see a lot of that, like we're saying. It's very academic and purist watercolor circles, as it is in old master's techniques or a la prima painting, and the form I see it taking is, you know, even in just figure drawing. You hear structure, structure, that's everything, anatomy and structure.

Speaker 2 29:21

Then another instructor will say oh no, it's all gesture, you got to feel the pose.

Speaker 1 29:23

It's all about the expressiveness of the gesture.

Speaker 1 29:25

So there's all these silly mutually exclusive ideas and you know you'll. You'll hear oh rendering versus loose expressive strokes. The bottom line is, you know, just take everything in. If it resonates with you, it becomes part of your lexicon or it'll just fall away. So I I'm not opposed to getting under somebody's wing like a mentor and really joining their religion for a period of time, because you can really master, whether it's Steve Houston or Glenn Vilpoo or any of these hardcore figure drawing instructors, you can master their way of viewing the creative process. But then go study with somebody else and eventually your own voice and your own, you know. So what.

Evolution of Animation and Design Education

Speaker 2 30:07

I was wondering was so you say, like it's what you make of it, right, it's, it's your commitment well, life is and learning is yes yes, well, this is a perfect segue for me into you have done a lot if you want to talk about what you have made of it. You made a lot out of it. You did everything from uh well, so you worked at disney and we can talk about that later. But then you also did live action movies, films, films, because gotta do that. And then you also did literary, literary fiction and narrative and non-fiction, and then you won stuff, and then there is teaching again, and then you're also a fist of generalists. Is the only one that kind of really made sense throughout, like from where it started, is that is do you have such a big, huge drive to learn and make things of it? Is that how you get so much done?

Speaker 1 31:12

I think I follow the question. I mean what I would say about the breadth of you know, what I've been lucky enough to do right, what I've been lucky enough to be involved in, is it's, it's all storytelling. So it was a natural, very organic progression. And you will find within the industry, I mean, I've been told oh, you're a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, and I've had people shame me. Actually it's a form of shaming to say, oh, nobody knows what to do with you because you're so versatile or multifaceted. I've had, I've had people say nobody would know how to market you. I don't buy that anymore because it's all storytelling and so I also think that's jealousy, but OK.

Speaker 1 31:51

No, that's what I mean. It's a little bit of shaming and a little competitive, like professional competition. But now, because artist is brand my friend Greg Spolica came on and talked a lot about this we're all brands and we all have to have that buoyancy without depending on a studio for our opportunities. So it's very normal now to have your hands in a lot of different things and have a platform and have a brand. That's rather new, but in my life I would say I love that I was able to dabble in all those different mediums and formats. I would call it of storytelling, including gaming, because there are different rules for each and there's different trappings of each genre and format. So I feel pretty blessed. Yeah, I could go more into that if you like.

Speaker 2 32:38

Go ahead, and there was also a completely different time back then. You cannot compare this with now. It's nice to be in a jack of all jack of all trades now, but when you started, well, when you came from, when you graduated, it was only 1991. So that's dial-up internet just saying right, um. So I'm not sure, um, how this exactly went from. Like, I'm painting backgrounds at Disney, which, of course, at 1991, it was only at the beginning of its golden age, so it's probably didn't know it was in it yet.

Speaker 1 33:19

I would call it the beginning of the animation renaissance.

Speaker 2 33:23

Oh, sorry, not the golden age right.

Speaker 1 33:25

Isn't that way back?

Speaker 2 33:27

I'm confused, to be honest. Right isn't that way back. I'm confused, to be honest. Either there are two golden ages or two renaissances, or golden age and the renaissance or something, and then they messed it up.

Speaker 1 33:35

But I think it's. It depends on how much of a disney disney file you are. And if you've read the illusion of life but I would the golden age to me is like the heyday of animation, when they had it really beautifully down to a science and then my time there, my time there has been called the animation renaissance.

Speaker 2 33:52

Yeah yeah, because you entered in right after ariel the little mermaid good memory I also have all the disney dvds like the climate is always changing and I think yeah, I think this is what you were hinting at.

Speaker 1 34:09

What I will say is art schools were not producing portfolios that had any relationship at all to animation. So at arts, yeah, when I was at art center, advertising illustration was still intact, but fashion illustration they did away with literally the term before I arrived at art center because, of course, photography had taken over. But within illustration you had editorial and advertising illustration. Advertising was rendering water droplets on fruit, basically highly rendered images with no narrative, no concept really. And then, um, editorial you had just had again. Greg Spelanka came on a few episodes ago and he was at the forefront with Matt Mahurin and Erisman and all these, frankly, art center graduates that had made a splash in New York and really defined what's now called conceptual editorial illustration, where there was a huge conceptual bent, more like a fine art sensibility applied to these editorial illustrations.

Speaker 2 35:12

That makes sense.

Speaker 1 35:13

Yeah, no acknowledgement of entertainment whatsoever. So places like Disney Imagineering were recruiting from ArtCenter for their theme parks. Disney Imagineering did all the theme park design, so they would regularly come to ArtCenter hoping to recruit, but you would not see what they needed to see, which was figures interacting narratively in an environment. It was so conceptual that you would show anything but a narrative scenario, a figurative, figural representation of a narrative scenario. It was so conceptual that you always showed a symbolic version of that.

Speaker 1 35:49

So if you're going to talk about, if you're going to do like, let's say, a magazine article for Time magazine and the topic is some kind of conflict, you're not going to show the kings of state you know the heads of state hashing it out at the dinner table. You're going to show the mice on the floor as a symbolic representation. Or you're going to show the shadow on the wall, symbolic representation. Or you're going to show this shadow on the wall, or you're going to show the moment before or the moment after or some artifact they left behind. That is a portrait of them and represents them. It was anything but right a narrative scenario involving characters interacting in environments with dropped shadows.

Speaker 2 36:24

Yeah, that's very art school-y. Right to um. Have the symbolism in there and get it all.

Speaker 1 36:32

Well, that was the scene at the time, that was the gallery scene and it was the world. So I agree, and even then, though, I think people that really wanted to learn to draw and paint if they took their journey seriously or they admired the old master techniques and wanted to actually learn to draw and paint, you didn't really have atelier programs like you have at LAFA now LA Academy of Figurative Art. So people took illustration because it was the closest thing to actually learning to draw and paint. You know, perspective, composition, how does light, effect, form, figure, drawing, all of that. But my point is there was nobody recruiting. They would come to our center and try to recruit for Imagineering, but never saw what they needed to see in portfolios, which is actually why, after I got involved at Disney, I came back and offered that I just going to go on a little bit here. So the department head at the time, phil Hayes, he was my department chair and then he hung on.

Speaker 1 37:30

I didn't start teaching at ArtCenter until eight years into my stint at Disney. So it was still the old boys network, it was still Phil, and he's very, very editorial, very conceptual, but somehow, over time, somebody broke him down and he understood that here we are in LA. These are job opportunities that reflect well on the school. We're in the hub of animation and the entertainment industry, so somehow he was receptive, finally, and that's how Greg Spelenka actually helped me pitch my very first background painting class. So, anyway, so I created a monster and now, yes, all art schools have entertainment tracks, or you know at least a major called entertainment, if not something more specific like animation. It is all spun out of that moment.

Speaker 2 38:18

So did you also do calligraphy? I heard that from my mother.

Speaker 1 38:22

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 38:22

At the art school. Yeah, ok.

Speaker 1 38:25

Well, we had a typography. I think it was called type one and type two and yeah no kidding. You literally had to create your own alphabet, a to Z, using a really sharp graphite pencil on vellum. Is that what she said? It was graphite on vellum.

Speaker 2 38:44

It was mostly like typography is really hard. Every inch, every centimeter, whatever counts, everything is very. It's mostly horror stories, I think, like gesture drawing was the fun one, and then also that typography Well, typography as an illustrator.

Speaker 1 39:02

You may or may not ever use it, but there's certainly more you know. Again, like you said, computers were rather new and so you would still do as an illustrator if you wanted to incorporate type into your image. You would likely create the type yourself, and then I forget, I'm not gonna remember the term, but you would have to go have a internet made and they would create what we now just call rub off. You know, rub off type. It was almost like letraset letters, but they were custom made. Yeah, things are so much better now and everyone's a graphic designer now.

Speaker 2 39:34

Yeah, well, I mean, it has um, what's the word? It's? It's certain charm, right that it has. Like, I love these stories.

Disney Feature Animation Recruitment and Internship

Speaker 1 39:44

Well, I didn't sorry to interrupt you. I didn't hate typography as much as many of my peers because I found it very meditative. You can just zone out and the little gamma waves start flowing and the mental chatter dissolves. I didn't mind just sitting there for hours stroking that vellum. It's kind of meditative.

Speaker 2 40:03

Oddly, that makes sense so sure. How do you get from life, drawing and typography? How do you get to Disney? Because, again, the Renaissance just started and I know that Disney did not know that yet. Right, why did you go there?

Speaker 1 40:23

Well, I'm glad you asked. It is kind of I do like to tell stories because there's sometimes a little grain of something that might benefit somebody and so my story is kind of unique. I will take back what I said a moment ago. It wasn't just Imagineering. Recruiting from Disney Feature animation did come and try to recruit but they rarely saw what they needed to see in portfolios. So there was an internship and I'm sure you've heard sometimes there's a 14 week one, sometimes it's longer, sometimes it was in Florida, sometimes it was in LA. I'll go back a little bit.

Speaker 1 40:56

Midway through art center. I worked at Aaron brothers throughout and I was a framer and a woman came in from Disney feature animation and she was actually framing her figure drawing and I still know her to this day. She was one of the rare individuals who would switch from Disney Interactive to Disney Publishing, to Disney TV, to Disney Feature Animation. She somehow they looked out for her and she ended up in a lot of different divisions. But at the time I'll give her a shout out. It was Jane Bonnet and she just happened to be framing this figure drawing and we started chatting and she told me a little bit about it and she said why don't you come in and I'll show you around, I'll give you a little tour.

Speaker 1 41:37

So again, I was midway through art center but I wasn't like. I mean, you asked about ambition earlier. I just none of that was on my mind. I wasn't ambitious. I will say at 16 or 17 in high school, you know, I literally lived down the block from Disney. I grew up in Burbank so I do remember I like to draw. Of course I identified as an artist. I took my first oil painting class at seven. You love when I say that.

Speaker 2 42:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:02

So I did consider myself a drawer right. But when you're young you don't think that far ahead and I know exactly.

Speaker 1 42:10

I slipped through the cracks in our miserable Burbank public school district, it wasn't? It lacked a little bit. So who knew what I was going to do later in life? Uh, but I did think well, disney's right down the block I do like to draw. So I remember I did right. I did walk my portfolio into the lobby. A friend's mom was a receptionist on the main lot at Disney and so I remember talking to him. He goes oh, my mom can help you. People tend to speak out of turn sometimes, so my mom can help you. But I marched it in.

Speaker 1 42:41

I guess I did have some kind of gumption, you know, some kind of ambition, because I had the guts to walk the portfolio in. I asked for I don't want to say names. I asked for peg and she came out and I said oh, here are you offered. So here's my portfolio. And she looked a little, um, you know, like a deer in the headlights. But she said okay, I'll bring it in. And I waited in that lobby and I said I'm not leaving until I had a job. I guess I had heard things here, you know I had heard like, oh, you got to be aggressive. And so I just sat there and the clock ticked and nobody ever came out so I left and then, of course, two weeks later I got a very nice letter saying you don't really have the rigid drawing skills necessary for Disney feature animation, and probably gave me some advice about schools, anyway. So clearly it was on my radar but I quickly forgot about that.

Speaker 1 43:30

And then, midway through Art Center, yeah, little Mermaid came out. And I love snorkeling, I love scuba diving, I love undersea life. I've always written reports about undersea life. So I went and saw it and it did rock my world. You know, I wasn't a Disneyphile but my dad was smart enough to take us to the 10-year re-releases of all the classics. So I was kind of the right age to see Jungle Book when it came out at the 10-year mark. I saw Aristocats and it was part of my childhood for sure. But again, you know, forget about all that.

Speaker 1 44:04

And I just kicked a little piece of paper after seeing the Little Mermaid at Art Center and I happened to look down and it said internship and but the meeting to be considered, the on campus interviews, were like the next day. So the stars did align and that's why I tell this story. You can control some of it, but some of it is just the stars aligning in your favor or not. But the timing was fascinating. I kicked the piece of paper.

Speaker 1 44:31

I thought, oh shit, I guess I could cobble together a portfolio. I didn't really have one yet, but I could throw all my figure drawings in a acetate sleeve and stick it in what I call a portfolio. But just the day before there had been a visiting artist that came to one of my classes and he said said, oh yeah, I know bill matthews, he's, he's the guy that's going to be interviewing you tomorrow. And I thought, oh, wow. And he said tell uncle billy. I said, hi, I remembered his name and I was able in the interview to say, hey, I forget his name now. But this visiting artist said hello, uncle billy. And so I kind of had that familiarity and that in. Of course it doesn't hurt.

Speaker 1 45:11

But I think my work, um, if anything, I was really good at likenesses. I didn't really have many expressive powers, I wasn't that interpretive in my work, but it meant I could draw the figure, I could draw it. I hadn't found my voice yet in terms of style or any of that. But some would say, oh, they want somebody malleable, they want somebody that can conform to the Disney look. I don't know about that, but they saw raw drawing ability Without being distracted, if that makes sense, by an expressive style.

Speaker 2 45:42

So you got the internship.

Speaker 1 45:44

Well, yeah, so I got the internship. It was heaven. I had never been paid that much money to draw animals at the zoo, to listen to Glen Keane I was literally trained by Glen Keane and then Ruben Aquino I don't know if you know him, ruben oh yes, I think so yeah, he did Ursula, he had just done.

Disney Recruitment Myths and Success

Speaker 1 46:02

He was the lead animator on Ursula. So during the internship we actually practiced our in-betweening, using Ariel, of course, and you know, a lot of our learning was using production materials from Little Mermaid, since it had just premiered, anyway. So Ruben Aquino was the lead animator on Ursula. I was lucky enough to have him as my animation mentor, no-transcript, um. So yeah, it was 14 weeks of heaven hot chocolate, popcorn, getting paid to go to the zoo and draw animals, like getting paid to listen to Glen Keane, arguably.

Speaker 2 46:37

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 46:42

Yeah. So at the end of that um, they offered me a job and I said, no, I need to go finish up and get my degree. I don't know why, I just had completion issues. It was in my blood. Some people thought I was crazy not to take the job. But I said, no, I just want to finish up. And but they said, oh, don't worry, the job will be waiting. Just hit us up when you graduate.

Speaker 2 47:01

We don't live in those times anymore, oh my God. Well, no, of course it didn't happen that way.

Speaker 1 47:05

So, uh, I mean I've heard a lot of myths. When I do go to CTN or any other recruiting event and I am the face of Disney, that happened a lot People would say, oh, I've heard Disney never passes up good talent and I gently gently have to say are you kidding me? They can't create a job for you. There has to be a budget if that makes sense for a position. And yes, sometimes if they see somebody that's really talented, they might take a card or take note, take a name, but they're not going to create a job for you. So there are a lot of myths and again, the stars did align for me. What happened is? They offered me a job. I said no, I want to get my degree.

Speaker 1 47:48

When I was getting close to graduating you had to do all kinds of things like you do see now. You see more people pounding the pavement and trying to rub elbows and live the life. It's not schmoozing, it's just being immersed in the culture and living the life. So I did go to New York with a couple of friends to check out the editorial scene and I was lucky enough to get interviews with art directors and publishers and get a sense of the editorial side of things, get a sense of New York. But then, you know, graduation was coming and I thought, well, I need to start hitting up Disney and saying, hey, make your offer good, put your money where your mouth is. They didn't really say Dominic who, I'm sorry, but they did say, yeah. I don't remember how it went down, but I remember I was calling Glenn Ruben Aquino, sorry, and then Bill Berg was my in-betweening mentor and so I would call them and say, hey, I'm graduating. I did score well, you know, they offered me a job. I reflected well on the internship program, so I assumed they'd want to champion me and I didn't mind calling them and saying, hey, keep your eyes and ears open, I'm graduating in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 48:52

So what happened is some people may not know this, but there is what's called the review board panel at Disney. I think it still operates the same way. So all the supervisors of every department meet at this review board panel, I think once a week. It's kind of a lunchtime meeting and they review all the portfolios that came in that week. It's kind of a lunchtime meeting and they review all the portfolios that came in that week. Now, granted, bill Matthews was his name. Uncle Billy would weed through hundreds of portfolios from the world over. Right, because, for good or bad, anyone that's remotely interested in animation would hit up Disney. So there was a process, for good or bad, by which one individual would weed out portfolios that didn't make the cut and then I would say, 12 would land on that review board table. So mine came in. Bill was good enough to say this kid interned here, he scored well, he was offered a job. You know, he really sang my praises and championed me. So people paid attention to that portfolio and he got entered into a visual development pool. And I don't know if this is true or not, but they tried to make me feel better and said, yeah, you were in the top five but you didn't make the cut. So I didn't get in as a visual development artist. But they said well, we'll resubmit it into the general review board session. And that's what happened at that moment when I made it on that table.

Speaker 1 50:10

Lisa Keene could have been out to lunch and chose not to go that day. Bill Matthews maybe. He decided not to champion me. All the forces came together. There happened to be a budget for a trainee on a little film called Lion King. Lisa Keene, the art director, happened to be in the room and then Doug Ball, my background supervisor, happened to be there as well. So they said let's give this kid a test.

Speaker 1 50:32

They gave me, as you've probably heard, a background painting test. So I had two weeks to copy what was called a back then a conica from Bambi. So a really beautiful background. And now conicas they got. They went to C prints and Iris prints and all these other things straight out of the system Once. The whole process was was digital, but this was a conica. It was a photographic copy, pretty close, but it really polarizes the contrast, saturates colors that you know can't be saturated in gouache or acrylic, really. So it was a weird process where I really tried to nail it as closely as I could. But I did what you're not supposed to do and I put a little post-it on it saying I couldn't reach the rich degree of saturation in these dark values because this is a conica.

Speaker 2 51:21

I made an excuse.

Speaker 1 51:23

I said I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 51:24

Very good.

Speaker 1 51:24

I couldn't Well, I didn't know. But they appreciated it and they said at least he can perceive hue value and saturation and he understands why it can't be accomplished in physical pigment. So that worked in my favor. So, anyway, I had five bucks in my pocket the day they called me. I had sold a painting for more than I've ever sold a painting for again. But we had a little student art show and I sold a painting in my later, you know, the last couple of weeks of school, and I literally had five bucks in my pocket when they said I'm in on Monday, so you're going to start on this little film called Lion King.

Speaker 2 51:59

Wow, Amazing. I mean backgrounds for Lion King is not the worst. I mean you also did Tarzan, so was that fun? Like which one was the most fun to work on?

Speaker 1 52:13

Well, obviously, lion King. I was a deer in the headlights, it was all new to me. I had to train for six months. Uh, meaning you would start with again more master copies, kind of taking. You would start doing direct copies from films and I would say I was lucky enough to go to the ARL it's called the animation research library and they trusted this 20 year old kid to walk away, walk out with these production backgrounds from, yeah, jungle Book and what else?

Speaker 2 52:39

oh, peter Pan, actual originals yeah, you didn't even have to wear gloves back then right, right they were.

Speaker 1 52:48

They were covered in acetate and but the point is I did copy them so religiously that I could have returned mine to the ARL and eBayed.

Speaker 2 52:56

There was no eBay back then, but I could have held on to the originals.

Life at Disney Feature Animation

Speaker 1 53:00

That's how closely I copied them. But instead of copying them I'm sorry you would take a layout, just a layout drawing from a classic and you would use any reference. You could gather neighboring backgrounds or color keys and make up, just guess at what the palette would be. The technique does that make sense? And that's more like what you would do on production. You would just get a layout drawing. You'd have to use existing neighboring backgrounds as reference or color keys. So six months of that man. It was pretty tedious, but they would take the results of my efforts and run them by the review board again and, to my credit, they couldn't tell the originals from mine. I did very well for mine I did very well and that's kind of the only reason I made it through the training to what's called um. I guess you go trainee, apprentice, assistant, journeyman, yeah, but it was a blast. I mean to answer your question. Of course Lion King was a blast. I I remember it best because it was my first film, so a lot of the I can imagine.

Speaker 2 54:08

it's also what's the word? Sort of weird, that you're kind of implicating that it became normal to you to work on such projects, which of course, back then wasn't known as renaissance yet. But like in hindsight, like I would have loved, I don't know.

Speaker 1 54:27

I don't know if it became normal. Even back then I would say you know, because I've done hard labor in my life. I did concrete with my dad. I mean, I joke like the weirdest job I ever did was at 16. I broke up a balcony with a sledgehammer while standing on it and threw the chunks into a dumpster to the point where I had no fingertips left and could have robbed. Wow.

Speaker 2 54:48

So that was my job in your bio though.

Speaker 1 54:51

Right right, I worked at Del Taco. I wore a polyester hat. I worked at Aaron brothers, as you know. I did a lot of retail, so not that I felt I earned it, but I worked really hard to get there, so I don't think I took it for granted. Even while at Disney, I would say I recognize that I get to go to work and be surrounded by creative genius all day, every day. I was high on that. Anywhere you can go to work and literally just see the artwork on the walls, you would see storyboards pinned to presentation boards. There's artwork on the walls all day, every day. It never lost its allure to me.

Speaker 2 55:24

Wow. So how did that? So you are on the Lion King and then the end is nearing. Is there any doubt? Like am I on the next project.

Speaker 1 55:36

Do I know?

Speaker 2 55:37

something? Or did you already know where you were going? Were you curious?

Speaker 1 55:41

Well, back then. That's a great question because everything has changed. Now TV animation has its own norms as well, but strangely it's never happened again. But at the time that I started we had four year contracts. That's called security. Later it became per project. So in TV animation you do have to ingratiate yourself to a director or an art director and get under somebody's wing and make sure you're going to roll onto the next production. If that makes sense, you're on your own. They don't necessarily. I think some companies are better than others, but they don't try to place you. They don't have a real big placement department. I was lucky enough to have a four year contract. Now there are year long options within that they can choose to renew or not. But it was just security. It's never happened again. So I was on a four-year contract no, maybe three-year contract for Lion King. So yeah, I was guaranteed to go on to Pocahontas. But another thing listeners or you might not even know is there's what's called baseball trading. Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 2 56:44

The cards.

Speaker 1 56:45

Well, no, at Disney there's a Maybe it doesn't exist anymore, but there was a tradition called baseball trading. So yeah, as something's coming to a close and of course every artist is hoping they'll roll, or even production, people are hoping they'll roll on to the next project, whatever that is, during my time at Disney they went from one major feature per year to two, and it started with dinosaurs.

Speaker 2 57:11

If you remember that the CG feature dinosaurs?

Speaker 1 57:13

Yeah, it didn't go well, I think well, what happened is originally they wanted to do lion king and pocahontas neck and neck and release them the same year. But inevitably, you know, there's budget and their schedule and they're related. So we weren't kind of getting our numbers. So they took a lot of people off pocahontas, put them back on lion King to finish it up. So we didn't succeed straight out the gate in doing two per year. But my point is usually there's a clean roll off and if there's two things in production that need artists, they kind of fight for the artists they want to work with.

Speaker 1 57:45

So I was lucky enough to be requested at the baseball tradings, if that makes sense, and that's kind of how I got on Tarzan. Later Doug Ball had worked with me for three years, all said and done. On Lion King. Production is 18 months but I went on pre-production and helped develop the look of it, so it was three years, all said and done. So again during baseball trading I was lucky enough that Doug wanted to work with me again for three years on Tarzan. So six of my 11 years at Disney were working for Doug on just Lion King and Tarzan Lion King.

Speaker 2 58:15

Yeah, I don't know if I answered your question. You also did.

Speaker 1 58:18

Pocahontas, yeah, in between, well, I did, oh yeah, I did Lion King, pocahontas, hunchback of Notre Dame, tarzan, little Match Girl and Fantasia. But I was trying to answer your question in that you were pretty much taken care of for however long your contract was, although the option was on their part they could choose to renew you or not. And then when Lion King did so well, I think my option had already expired and I was into my new contract on Pocahontas by the time Lion King came out and we went to the premiere and saw how well it did at the box office. You know that was well into my stint on Pocahontas and so I was kind of guaranteed that second gig on Pocahontas and that was a three-year contract. But bottom line is I'm sure you've heard all the lore Lion King did so well that you had to now go out and get a lawyer.

Speaker 1 59:09

I wasn't the type of artist who gossiped or listened hey, how much are you making? I had no idea what people were making Because, according to the union again, you have all those stages yeah, assistant, sorry, trainee assistant, apprentice, journeyman and there's a range of pay scale according to the union. That's allowed by law, and so Disney absolutely paid me as little as possible for as long as possible, according to the union. But I wasn't aware, I wasn't keeping track. So midway through Pocahontas, baker, bloodworth I'm throwing out names now came and said, hey, maybe we should promote this kid, and I said well, ok, I had no idea. I wasn't savvy that way. I wasn't keeping my eyes and ears open.

Speaker 2 59:49

I'm not either, so I completely feel you here.

Speaker 1 59:52

And that's why getting a lawyer was awesome, because they negotiate on your behalf. It's not personal, you don't have to look greedy, right, but it was a necessity. So we all went out and got lawyers. But I absolutely said even then what goes up must come down. So we were kind of creating a monster by things spinning out of control. I'll tell you one just for fun have you heard about the bonuses on Lion King.

Speaker 2 1:00:20

No, no, not that no.

Speaker 1 1:00:21

Tell me, okay, well, they were more than some people, more than some brain surgeons and rocket scientists make in a year, and it was a very beautiful, sincere acknowledgement. I mean, jeffrey Katzenberg called everybody personally and said I understand you're the reason I get to go on vacation and that I'm exaggerating, but that I have a Learjet and I'm going to be crude now and I wipe my ass with your paycheck.

Speaker 2 1:00:49

Dollar bills.

Speaker 1 1:00:52

No, but it was a very sincere acknowledgement and it's not the case anymore. It's so much a business now, but they acknowledge. You know 60% of the company's profits still came directly or indirectly from the films we made. So you've probably heard there was a dark period around the time of black cauldron and um no, I know We've seen where they almost right waking sleeping beauty.

Speaker 2 1:01:14

We all know exactly.

Speaker 1 1:01:15

Yeah, there's another one too. Wait, they came out neck and neck, wake, waking, sleeping beauty, and um, I'll get back to you, I'll put the link in the box.

Speaker 2 1:01:24

No, never mind, it was done by animator dan lund.

Speaker 1 1:01:28

I want to slow down here. It's done by animator Dan Lund and I'll put the link in the episode description. But basically, waking sleeping beauty talked about what happened with the higher ups, right and upper management. So when Frank Wells was killed in that helicopter crash, right, what are we going to do? And that's largely why Jeffrey Katzenberg left and founded DreamWorks, because he wasn't promoted to the position he thought he was going to be. Anyway, that one is done by Don Hahn and it's very much what was happening higher up. The other one that Dan Lund did is very much what was happening in the trenches and I'll come up with the name of it later.

Speaker 2 1:02:07

Yes, please come up with the name. I would love to see it. Okay, of it later. Uh, yes, please come up with the name. I would love to see it. Okay, I do have to check, though. Um, was there indeed an internal sort of I don't know, not race, but wanting to work on pocahontas more because it was more popular, and that people on the lion king kind of got stuck with the lion king and didn't like like, is it? Uh, like it was described in the?

Animation Development and Techniques

Speaker 1 1:02:32

yeah, let's see. Yes, I, I think I used to say the lion king was the bastard stepchild, like the golden boy was pokey. Right, pocahontas was the one to be on and nobody had any idea lion king was going to do so. Well, well, you know, you probably do know. It was the first original treatment that wasn't based on a public domain property or an existing fairy tale. Of course, yeah, the treatment was the first time they did something without name recognition.

Speaker 2 1:03:00

That's so funny, so Hunchback was also like a short on the side to Lion King and Tarzan.

Speaker 1 1:03:10

Sorry, sorry.

Speaker 2 1:03:12

The Hunchback of Notre Dame. You also worked on that one right correct. Yes, is that also a short um in between project like Pocahontas, or is it a bigger project or no?

Speaker 1 1:03:25

they were all they were sorry to interrupt you. They were all 18 month production schedules, so usually pre-production. As you've probably heard, things can be in development for 20 years.

Speaker 2 1:03:36

I know yeah.

Speaker 1 1:03:37

Yeah. So I always heard that myth. So there's visual development and then there's story development, and you know they inform each other. So let's say you're doing a storyboard and you're fleshing out story development. Well, a little panel in a storyboard can inform a line of dialogue, so it gets bounced back to the writers. Now a visual, it's almost like improvising. You know, when Robin Williams came in and improvised the genie, it changed the writing and so in a beautiful way the visual development can inspire ideas that then get bounced back to the writer or the storyboard artists. So anyway, I never quite believed that myth that oh they really, they can be in development for 20 years. And then I saw it for myself. You probably know Frozen was called the Snow Queen originally. My final year at.

Speaker 1 1:04:24

Disney, the Britzy brothers, were developing Snow Queen and only when it came out as Frozen did I realize they weren't kidding. That's been in development for 20 years. Anyway, my point is, once it is green lit, you have 18 months of pre production and I can explain what goes on during those 18 months, if you like, and then 18 months of production. So, to answer your question, it's not like I leapfrogged over Pocahontas or Hunchback. They were certainly the entire 18 month production schedule. You also have what are called back-end departments and front-end and it's kind of what it sounds like. You know story stays on throughout because, as you know, based on test screenings, they can ace entire right, like Aladdin had an entire opening sequence in full color and fully composited, that was yanked out based on research Things and stuff yes.

Speaker 1 1:05:17

Things and stuff, yeah, based on test screenings, and so they stay on throughout. But backgrounds is known as a back end department, because you kind of stay on toward the tail end of production. And then you know I've been friends with Mike Giamo, the art director of Pocahontas, and I would say Andy Gaskell and David Getz, and they'll say the art director has it the worst, because you stay on through what's called color timing and then you know, approving the color when it goes to video, you stay on till the bitter end as an art director.

Speaker 2 1:05:54

I mean, somebody's got to do it right, Right.

Speaker 1 1:05:58

Well, they're glad to, because sometimes they can butcher the color, frankly, you know.

Speaker 2 1:06:04

Oh, that's what we like to do. Butcher colors.

Speaker 1 1:06:07

Oh no.

Speaker 1 1:06:08

When it just there's polarization. I mean, things are getting better all the time, but back in the day, whenever they digitize one of our films, you got a lot of polarization. And for example, andre esteja, who's a I'm dropping names now, but he's a very dear friend, so I've heard a lot of war stories and from him. And when they digitally remastered sleeping beauty, as you know, I probably know there's something called crawl. Right, it's where the paint strokes go in different directions, even though the ink and painters are masters at their craft. There's something called crawl, so line can vibrate a little bit, even if it's not 101 dalmatians where it's meant to vibrate. It can shift a little bit. But also you just have this organic feeling because the containers, you can kind of subliminally see the brush strokes. Also, if you look at Bambi, there was the multi-plane camera. Have you heard of that?

Speaker 2 1:06:59

Yes, definitely I've touched. It.

Speaker 1 1:07:04

Right, exactly, in the Royal Disney Building, exactly. Anyway, literally back in the day, the parallax shift of plane separation it's called that can be accomplished digitally. Now there's a whole department called scene planning. They would tear it off and glue it on plexiglass for that multi-plane camera. So if you watch Bambi, there's dust, there's reflections on that plexiglass, there's spider webs, but it makes it feel like the forest and light refracting off the atmosphere in that forest. When they digitally clean up all that dust and all those spider webs, it's too clean. So Andreas talks about you know what? When I helped art direct the transition of a classic, you know, sleeping Beauty, to the digital realm I think it was for DVD and Blu-ray at the time he absolutely said keep those imperfections, keep that crawl. It can't be too synthetic. And no, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 1:08:14

yeah, it totally makes sense because I can totally imagine so I've read a lot of books and I've seen things and watched documentaries and um, of course, that those people come up with these techniques and um, have that, uh, multifaceted oh, you just named it like imagining working with that. That can never be. Like perfect, perfect, not like you can do now and just go like a line to the left and it will be. That's not. You cannot do that. I don't know.

Speaker 2 1:08:58

Somehow I can imagine very well how that would be to just work and try to get it right and just see playback and then go back. No, we have to do this again, guys. Sorry, I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:09:05

Well, as a painter, I'll sorry to interrupt you, but I'll speak to that as a painter. It's funny how you know 90%. Until Tarzan, when we painted directly on the wireframe, what I did was on lard. You know, you could paint in gouache or acrylic if you wanted, but of course gouache doesn't stick to the cell. You have to put an acrylic base down on the cell if you then want to work with gouache on top of it, because gouache was great for clouds and really organic things that you want to blend using their badgering technique.

Speaker 1 1:09:38

Anyway, I won't go on and on, but that's largely. I did teach all those background painting techniques at art center when I first started the class and, um, yeah, it's a lot of work. And then I joked when digital came along, like the biggest thing is you don't have to spend 20 minutes mixing a color, you just use your eyedropper and you don't have to ruin your clothes. I ruined a lot of clothes and then nowadays all of us will say you find yourself. If you ever do end up painting traditionally again, you kind of reach for the undo button, but there isn't one.

Speaker 2 1:10:09

Oh God, yes. The control Z to reach for the undo button, but there isn't one. Oh god, yes, uh, the control c when I, when I switch back to guise or like just I don't know, I, I like I tend to draw with ink because I'm too lazy for pencil, so then I go like control c. Oh no, it's gonna stick never mind.

Speaker 1 1:10:25

Yeah, ink is pretty unforgiving right you gotta commit yeah to whatever you put down. I do like, actually I like drawing in ink.

Speaker 2 1:10:34

For that reason it forces you to commit and make really good decisions yeah, and be quicker, like uh, with a pencil you get way too much room to think and rethink and that's like nonsense. You should I mean you can, but for me usually it's just smarter to go to ink straight.

Speaker 1 1:10:52

Yeah, it's got a different outcome for sure. No, it's funny, I have talked to your finger literally reaches out for the undo button. It's kind of like when I lose my keys. I want to go to find my keys on iCloud.

Speaker 2 1:11:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:11:06

Oh, it doesn't work that way you can.

Speaker 2 1:11:09

There's key finders.

Speaker 1 1:11:11

Really Well, I know, I know, but not my sunglasses. Are there sunglass finders?

Speaker 2 1:11:17

I always want to go to iCloud when I can't find my sunglasses. Well, you can hang a tag on all of them, but I think it's going to look ridiculous because if they can be, well, maybe put it in your case. If you put it in your case, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:11:34

I don, if you put it well, yeah, I don't know, okay. Anywho, yeah, I was trying trying to say that. Um, you know even. Uh, if you have, I don't want to bore people too much with technique, but there, since you're an artist, I'll say you know the character animation, the way you label underlays and overlays. If it's in front of the character, it's an overlay and it goes overlay one, overlay, two, overlay three as you get closer to the camera.

Speaker 1 1:11:55

If it's behind the character. It goes the other way. It's underlay one, underlay two, underlay three. Right further away you get from the camera. Anyway that all had to be done on acetate. So it is it. There's a whole skill set there, you know, yeah, managing all of that. And I would say, even so, you sometimes would go into daily and when the digital things took off, I should back up a little. We had what was called cgi department, right, computer generated images. Now we just say cg, but it was cgi and way back. You know, the clock in Great Mouse Detective was fully modeled, and even the bushwhomper in Rescuers Down Under was fully modeled. And there were reasons to do that. I won't go on and on, but there were a lot of reasons, like held cells just became awkward, meaning. Have you ever watched a film this is for the listeners a little bit but you're watching an animated film or series and you go, uh, that door's gonna open. I can tell that door is gonna open, right, oh, it's because it's posterized yeah yeah, it's posterized.

Speaker 1 1:13:02

It doesn't have the modeling or the rendering or the atmosphere that the background has.

Speaker 1 1:13:06

So really needs to be animated, yeah yeah, so that was the reason that maurice the art director on the first art director on Tarzan, the whole idea was the directors knew they wanted this immersive look where the camera seems to be moving through the jungle, right, especially for that surfing scene where Tarzan surfs. So the goal, one of the mandates, was we want this immersive feeling where you're moving through the jungle. In other words, was we want this immersive feeling where you're moving through the jungle? In other words, we want to enter a painting, and so the reason we started painting on the wireframe was for that reason, but also we didn't want that cut out.

Speaker 1 1:13:41

Look where that door is going to open and held cells forced you to do that because they were going to animate this way, and it's come a long way. There's so many versions of this now, but it was groundbreaking at the time where, if you wanted again the control to be in the hands of the background painter in terms of what's diffused, what is the focal distance, what is out of focus I'm going back and forth here, but you would often walk into dailies and go, holy shit, they is. Did I paint that?

Speaker 2 1:14:16

Because they would put a gaussian blur on your background think of the amp sequence in lion king do you remember that rack focus where the ant in the foreground it's the focus shifts in the circle of life, the very beginning. No, no, I had you said lion king. I heard tarzan and I was lost.

Speaker 1 1:14:26

It was my brain, I think the public the public was aware of that one because it did stick out like a sore thumb. The rack focus was too sophisticated for the rest of the film and people noticed again, when the focus racked from that ant to whatever it was, the water buffaloes walking through the water behind them, and so, anyway, the goal was to feel like you're entering a painting, for that immersive look, and yet not for it to seem synthetic. So it was called deep canvas and it was based on paint tool, which was based on draw tool. It was proprietary, but it was based on an existing platform and we were able to paint directly on the wireframe and, as you probably know, there's a script recorded of every stroke you lay down and then it's rewritten. Well, as you lay down a stroke, it records a script.

Speaker 1 1:15:14

Then, when the camera does move and you start to get the parallax shift, it re-renders every frame of the 24 frames per second. Okay, so you get all those strokes moving with the geometry. Of course, they're what are called touch-up frames. When the camera moves, let's say, 180 degrees, you're seeing a very different portion of that branch than you did in the initial frame. So we would then go and do touch-up frames. There was also a weird phenomenon where, if you were coming to a seam where the branch changes direction in the geometry, if you just paint right across that seam, we've got what were called bubblegum strokes, if you just paint right across that seam, we've got what were called bubble gum strokes.

Speaker 1 1:15:53

So when the camera moves you get these long, stretchy bubble gum strokes. So it's better to do little, tiny short strokes if you're coming up against a seam in the geometry. We learned a lot. We learned a lot by doing it. But I guess my point is, if you, if the center of your stroke lands on the geometry, the edges of that stroke can be as diffused as you want and then it feels like a painting. It doesn't feel like a cutout element composited onto the background, if that makes sense. That's why Deep Canvas came about. Anyway, now there's all kinds of versions. You can paint on the wireframe in a million ways now.

Evolution of Animation Technology and Growth

Speaker 2 1:16:29

Right, you know what's really interesting. You talked about Lion King very nostalgic, I guess and then with Tarzan you actually like go nuts, like you talk about the whole technique and uh, the well painting directly on the wireframe, uh, the difference it made between like Lion King and this, and you were very involved. So basically you went from a um graduate at art center, you got the internship done, already got a job, then you got to paint backgrounds, which was the joyous like day of your life and then you actually got into it.

Speaker 1 1:17:15

Like it sounds you are telling me the way you're telling this to me now it sounds like you actually got into it, like with both hands and feet well, maybe, maybe what you're hearing is that I was one of four artists that developed the alpha release of Deep Canvas, so yeah, we kind of figured out it was very user friendly. It was only four brushes, nowhere near like Painter or Photoshop four brushes. So I think what you're hearing a little bit is I was trying to illustrate because something came up a little while ago about the digital influence in our process and so I was trying to say that again early on.

Speaker 1 1:17:59

There was very good reason to do Big Ben digitally. In a way, it was kind of like showing off something that was meant to be magnificent. And same with the Bushwhomper there was a story-driven reason for the technology. Now, when you get into, like the Wildebeest stampede, some of our listeners might notice that same technology of the wildebeests coming over the edge into the canyon. You know, look at Mulan and look at the Hanate.

Speaker 2 1:18:24

I was just going to say OK.

Speaker 1 1:18:27

And that actually, in the interim, became the crowd technology and hunchback. So you see, you know all these variations, like four different cones of Renaissance shaped dresses with people waving in the crowd and anyway, so it can be used in a story driven way. But sometimes when you put all that money into the research and development for a new technology, you're going to use it again. Yeah, it's best when it's story driven, anyway. So it's not that I was more involved or more passionate about Deep Canvas, but we were talking about how the digital technology entered. So, to be really clear, pixar was on its own path by that time and they had their own trajectory. When it came to premiering the technology and CG films, our use again was really just a prop. Here and there it was called CGI. Tarzan was the big moment where we started utilizing painting directly on the wireframe. So I wasn't more passionate about it. I think I put 100% into all the films, but I think it came up because we were talking about the technology, evolution of the technology.

Speaker 2 1:19:27

Well, let me replace it then. Well, let me rephrase it then. Maybe let's talk about your evolution. You grew was more of my point, I guess. How was that? You started as just painting background to hands-on being part of the deep canvas. How was that for you? I mean you, I I miscalculated how old you were when you started that liking, but you said six years, uh, until like three years on liking, three on tarsan, so like six years ahead. How did you feel like? How was it? Were you thinking like? So I learned stuff here. I grew as a person. I'm a big professional now did you? Was there, how was that? How was your development?

Navigating Career Growth and Challenges

Speaker 1 1:20:20

I'm having a lot of reactions to that question. One is I felt lucky to be able to learn and grow on a job. Right, you're getting paid to be inspired, as I said, be inspired every day by being surrounded by creative geniuses or legendary animators and I just felt lucky. Um, what comes to mind, too, is I didn't start teaching at Art Center for eight years because I didn't feel like I had anything to offer. So I did. You know, we talk about stories, we tell ourselves, right, that's what this podcast is about.

Speaker 1 1:20:49

So for a long time I felt like, well, I'm not the best background painter I could possibly be, why would I move on? You know, I once did say to Andreas Deja in the hallway. I said you know, of course I would like to do more development work, meaning visual development, and and I I think it's a little bit of naivete on his part, because he did have such a great experience at art at Disney you know he was a product of, he's a product of Disney, he's a golden boy. Do you know what I mean? He has had a lot of opportunities, he's an asset to Disney. So maybe, in a way, the red carpet was rolled out for him. So when I said, yeah, I kind of want to expand and do visual development work. Maybe I was smelling the call of the wild or the roving eye, call it what you want, but I really didn't think I was the best background painter I could be and I had no business moving on. I just theoretically was asking you know what's it like to move around from department to department? And maybe that's why I mentioned my friend earlier that seemed to move from division to division, joan Bonnet. Anyway, he naively, perhaps naively said oh, it's not a problem, they want you to grow and learn on the job.

Speaker 1 1:22:01

I found production Well, but it's it's might be a little bit of a myth because I did find and again, things are changing all the time but at some point production needs your numbers If you're a production, so you can get pigeonholed like any other job. If they need your numbers on production, they might not actively say hey, you know, move, move, switch departments. You got to really fight for it if you want to grow. And I do know what like. When I was offered a job at the end of the internship, it was not as a background painter or a visual development artist, I was offered what's called in between.

Speaker 1 1:22:35

And so that is the path to becoming an animator, and the onus really is on the new hire in that case to get under the wing of an animator and actively keep submitting pencil tests to your mentor, saying I want to be an animator, I don't want to just be an in-betweener, or a cleanup artist, as it's called. You got to really work for those promotions, does that make sense? Yeah, so all of it exists. You know, I think production needs your numbers. They might subconsciously try to hold you back. Artists understand we need to grow and learn all the time and evolve.

Speaker 2 1:23:18

But there's a way to do it within the production pipeline, if that makes sense, an institutionalized way to advance. Yeah, so you, um, if I hear this correctly, you were not ready to be too proud.

Speaker 1 1:23:25

Yet what I would say is I it's hard, it's it's really. I mean, you're bringing up a lot of things, but I think people wouldn't quite believe it when I would say, yeah, I worked hard, I didn't feel I deserved anything. Now, when I go to CTN and I see how incredibly competitive it is and we see people from literally all over the world like you, it's very intimidating. So I used to say you know, I'm proud of what I was able to accomplish. I have no delusions about it. I don't deserve anything, but I did work hard. I would justify it that way of course you did, I don't but.

Speaker 1 1:23:58

But what I was gonna say is that, um, I was just happy I didn't have the roving eye. I think I vaguely knew artists need to. You know, eventually they'll burn out if they don't continue to learn and grow and evolve. But it wasn't on my radar, I just felt lucky. I mean, I remember my first, so I trained, I trained, I felt ready, but then you kind of freeze up with your first actual production background that's going to appear on film. I did freeze up for like half a day.

Speaker 2 1:24:28

Oh, I can totally imagine.

Speaker 1 1:24:29

That yeah, and without without naming names, there was one supervisor that would hand you a layout and go instead of because we didn't really have deadlines. That was the beauty of it. As a department, we had a quota as a department and certainly it would become obvious if you weren't pulling your weight and your peers would be mad at you because you're not pulling your weight. But you didn't have a personal quota. And I do remember early on in Lion King I said so what's the deadline? On this background? Yeah, let's worry about quality for this film. Maybe on your next film you can worry about productivity or numbers. That's how lax it was. So that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 1:25:06

But that same supervisor actually would hand you a layout and say I could do this in a day. She wouldn't give you a deadline, but she would very much let you know I could do this in a day. And so that I was given my first background that really had clouds in it and I felt confident. But after she said, how are you with gouache? How are you? Do you feel confident with these clouds? Then the seed of doubt was blended and again I froze up for half a day oh my god, anyway, what did you do?

Speaker 2 1:25:35

did you walk around? It worked out your head.

Speaker 1 1:25:37

Oh, okay I probably did a couple studies off to the side where the stakes weren't so high you know where it wasn't for production and got my confidence back, but I don't know why I brought that up other than all the same challenges exist on production that you know you receive in all other arenas.

Speaker 2 1:25:55

Of course. Well, I don't doubt that you worked hard as an artist. You are hardworking. I think there is no other way to be an artist. Maybe I'm wrong there, but let's not go there.

Speaker 1 1:26:08

Yeah, I was trying to answer your question. I mean I'm going to go back a little bit and say because I think the more relevant conversation is, what is that call of the wild? What is that need to expand and grow and learn lest you burn out? So I think what I would say is I was content. I'm really trying to get to the core of the question in the spirit of our podcast.

Speaker 1 1:26:30

I was jazzed to make that bonus, which I didn't even get back to. I paid off my student loans in one check, nice, yeah. So I hit the ground running. You know, I was able to buy my first car, working with Greg Spelenka. Yet again, I was kind of moonlighting, talking about working hard. I made it through training and I was on production and yet I was asked to assist Greg for two weeks. That's how I bought my first car. I got ahead enough to buy that car, so I had a good credit. I never carried over a credit card balance, so that alone not that I sold out.

Speaker 1 1:27:05

I was very proud of all the stories we told at Disney, very proud of the product we put out, but all my needs were met. And so I was trying to say a moment ago it was weird to be 21 and say I'm exactly where I want to be. People go no, no, no. But what are your goals? I'm good? That would be weird. It's incomprehensible to people. So what are you aspiring? Are you an aspiring artist? Nope, I'm where I want to be. There's no way to say that right without it sounding arrogant.

Speaker 2 1:27:33

That's amazing. Have you ever been able to say that again?

Speaker 1 1:27:37

Nope. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about is working for other studios. There's different cultures. I've never felt as respected as I was at Disney, and this is a big conversation. We were respected. Everybody had the understanding that these films would not get made without the particular talents of you know. There's many departments, there's many positions, but even production understood. We are there to give the artists what they need to do work their magic. That's a little little romantic, but I mean background painters used to have pas to fill their paint bottles for them.

Speaker 1 1:28:23

That didn't exist when I was there so you had a little bit of a different mentality. Some people were absolutely trained in production to serve the artists at all costs. Others resented it for sure. So there was a cultural shift where you know the relationship between production supporting the artists and production whipping they are.

Speaker 2 1:28:45

You know it always evolved so do you think or do you know? Uh, if that's evolved, so do you think or do you know?

Speaker 1 1:28:54

uh, if that's respect, if you will is still there. Well, again, I was lucky. I was spoiled by disney, so every other job. I'll just give some examples. When I work in tv, it's not slumming, it, trust me. I have all the respect in the world for the deadlines and high pressure right of tv animation. I animation, I was not. As I said, there was no deadline. They would say, we'll worry about quality on this film and we'll worry about numbers on the next film. All that mattered was the artistry. Totally the opposite in TV animation, and I do have respect for it.

Speaker 1 1:29:25

But more what I'm getting at is when I work for a startup company. For example, I did end up working for gaming companies that want to get in the feature animation game or companies that have I'm not naming names but some technology they want to premiere. So they're trying to get in the game of CG animation and they're wanting to premiere some technology, but they have no idea what they're doing. So when you come from Disney, you gently, gently want to say just do a workbook it's called a workbook You'll save, you know, a lot of gray hairs. You won't pull your hair out later in production If you do the workbook, they can't wrap their brain around it. So it's the cliche of ah, we'll fix it in post, we'll fix it in post.

Speaker 2 1:30:05

Right, the workbook is important though.

Speaker 1 1:30:12

Yeah, but I so there's yeah. It's yeah, but I so there's yeah. The it's a level of respect at some point when a company has no idea what it's doing.

Speaker 2 1:30:17

But it ends up being abusive to the artists.

Changes in Animation Industry Norms

Speaker 1 1:30:18

Yeah, uh, it's pretty disillusioning. So I was spoiled. 100 and the cultural is very different. I'm going to tell one more, just because it's kind of funny. Okay, so I did some freelance for um cat scratch. Oh yeah, that was a cartoon network, yeah, cat scratch. So I originally actually started freelancing in tv animation. That was my first brush with tv animation. A former student had gotten hired there as a background painter and they needed to farm some stuff out, so that was my first glimpse of tv animation. It was pleasant, it was uneventful, but then I did some designs for my life as a teenage robot. But the first time I was in house with a TV animation studio was much later and I was what's called a design supervisor and I was working for 12 year olds Cause now I'm, I think, in my forties, you know and working for children. And so it was right around the time that Pokemon Go came out. Do you remember that little game?

Speaker 2 1:31:16

Dude, I have it on my phone. What are you talking about? So here's the 16th.

Speaker 1 1:31:21

Right, it was right around that time, and so this says it all. Not only were you encouraged to go out and look for Pokemon, it was frowned upon if you didn't. So I'm sitting there trying to stay at my desk and be a good worker and do my work, and I was the odd man out because you were encouraged to leave your seat and go out and look for Pokemon. So the climate had totally changed, you know. And another big shift too was back in the day. Not only did you have secure contracts and that went bye-bye but you also had production needing your numbers, as I said. So growth wasn't really encouraged, or having the roving eye, but certainly having your own brand, having options outside of your contract with a Disney or a DreamWorks or a Pixar or PDI was not encouraged.

Speaker 1 1:32:10

Now it's understood that without the security of the longer contracts, you need to have your hands in everything, you need to be a brand, you need to grow your platform, you need to have options. So, again, an example is I was actually allowed, according to my contract, for those entire 11 years I could work on anything that wasn't in direct competition, not just with Disney's product, but in direct competition with the role that I fulfilled at Disney. So meeting a background painter on production or a visitor of our soundproof, I could do anything I wanted, but in the fine print they actually own your ideas when your head hits the pillow at night, any intellectual properties, not just that you develop at work. But I heard about that. It's bizarre and they don't enforce it. It's creepy and bizarre and they don't enforce it.

Speaker 1 1:33:01

Oh, but anyway, the norms I. The point I was making is the norms have all changed because now again, that little experience at nickelodeon was such that they want the artists to bring their followers to the show. So you're supposed to leak stuff, you're supposed to take production. They're used to ndas, used to matter, and until they came out right, you couldn't leak your production background. Now they're actually secretly wanting artists to bring their followers to the show and increase their numbers. So weird.

Speaker 2 1:33:35

But there's also I know like a lot of friends that are working in the industry that aren't allowed until a certain time and then they have to create their posts first, then send them to the department that goes about that and they get approved and if it's approved with the logo on the right spot and stuff, then you can post it I believe that.

Speaker 1 1:34:01

Yeah, I think there are different cultures at different studios and uh oh sure different practices, but within reason it was unheard of. Uh, you know when I was working at disney, for sure. And now, definitely in a good way. They acknowledge you need to have a life outside of work and you need to have your followers and you know, keep the folks happy yeah, I don't have followers, though, so that's sad.

Speaker 2 1:34:24

I have thousands.

Speaker 1 1:34:28

I've never. I've never. You know, I'm, of course, trying to build the platform or the podcast, and that's where my focus is, but I've taught here and there, but I've never tried to be, you know that teacher with a global following. And um, back to something you said earlier too, I, in terms of how, how did I feel six years in, for example, about my growth?

Speaker 2 1:34:50

Exactly.

Speaker 1 1:34:51

What I wanted to say is I never had any delusions about the work I was doing at Disney. I never mistook it for my own creative jollies or my own voice or my own purpose on the planet. I was proud of the work and I could go on about that. You know, when I started at Disney, the Southern Baptists were up in arms about some of the content we were putting out and the fact that we offered domestic partner benefits. There was a big cultural clash and my brother-in-law wrote a whole article about hey, you Southern Baptists, don't cut off your nose to spite your face, this is the gospel. And he went film by film and talked about how not just the didactic lesson but the moral was in keeping with the gospel. So a big cultural clash.

Speaker 1 1:35:35

I had a friend that came to disney and left some pamphlets in the lobby. It was kind of mortifying, but she put some pamphlets in the lobby about how we were killing dolphins in florida for the theme park. Oh yeah, that was a big controversy. So I did have to defend. Oh, you sell out, you work for a. You know there were some creepy over the fact that I worked in this country Right, arguably one of the strongest economic forces and military forces in the world at a capitalist company like Disney. I did defend it, but I never sold out and it's because I understood this is my income. I didn't mistake it for my own self-expression or my purpose.

Speaker 2 1:36:16

But that doesn't work.

Speaker 1 1:36:18

Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn't have done it if it had been something where I did have to sell out my principles or my morals or my ethics. So just to tell a slightly funny story again, I was working for a smaller company, very disillusioning because I was spoiled. But now I was working for a smaller company very disillusioning because I was spoiled, but now I'm working for a smaller company. I didn't realize you could be borrowed. So if you're under contract, and I was literally art directing a film, but for one day they needed to borrow me on another production and I had to paint Care Bears. Do you know what a Care Bear is?

Speaker 2 1:36:49

Yay, yes, I do.

Speaker 1 1:36:51

Okay, yay, and yet not Because the whole look of the Care Bears property was everything you wouldn't do in feature animation, like it's a long story. But that cottage, oh, it's right in the center. It's not based on the golden mean. Okay, those foreground elements that shouldn't be bookends but they are. It's very naive in a good way, it's child centric in a good way. But it was against everything that I knew. But anyway, I did call my sister and I go well, I've never really sold out in my career, but I think this might be it. I'm painting a Care Bear, you know. It just wasn't challenging artistically and so that's, I would say that's the only time I sold out.

Finding Creativity and Pursuing Passion

Speaker 1 1:37:30

My point is is for our listeners, because this is often what we talk about is the chemin artistique, the lifelong artistic journey, right, and you said something earlier about there's no way to be an artist other than to work hard, work hard, yeah, but that's uh, there's so many schools of thought, you know. I do think for somebody that takes the lifelong journey seriously, there is a lot to talk about there, getting under somebody's wing or not, being judicious or not, you know, and there's just choices. There's just cause and effect, just choices. But for me, I respect people that want to indulge an atelier program like the old masters did and take it seriously and perfect. You know, like mary cassatt was shamed for starting to paint before she mastered draftsmanship, there's a lot of romantic ideas around how one should proceed if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 1:38:22

What I do know is that eventually, those of us with a story to tell become dissatisfied with just paying the bills. Of course, right, and I have all the respect I mean, I've worked with every, you name it there were people that had mouths to feed in the form of children, the pitter patter of tiny feet. They had mortgages to pay. It was a beautiful thing that they didn't have much to say in the world, but they were really good at their craft and they got to raise those children and have joy. So I don't have judgment on anyone, but I do know that for a lot of us that do have stories to tell, that do have their own properties not Walt Disney's, but their own it eventually calls to you. I was so happy for so long and I didn't teach at art center until I felt I had something to offer. But yeah, we all have that moment where, like, yeah, I do want to tell my own stories and not Walt's, so that's is this when you started to make live action movies, just because there's something completely different.

Speaker 1 1:39:27

Yeah, I guess it's going to lead to a story, but it was a distinct moment and I'm telling it because all of our guests that are creatives, that are talking about their legacy, finding their voice, which we could define that right. There's a difference between style and voice, connecting your voice with a sense of purpose in life. These are all milestones in, I would say, the hero's journey, but also the chemin artistique, the artistic journey, so it is worth talking about. For me, it was a distinct moment and basically I had those four-year contracts that we were talking about. I had a year off, so I had four options. One of them was a sabbatical that I had written in intentionally Not paid, not paid. But I got to take a year off to do my own thing with the security of a job to come back to. So I had a house at the time. I had a mortgage, so it was a little bit of a risk to not have an income and, to be honest, that's when I started working at Art Center. It was not I did want to give back. I that's when I started working at Art Center. It was not I did want to give back. I had all those lofty notions about passing on the baton and giving back, but I also had a mortgage to pay, so for just a little bread and butter money. That's when I started teaching. The idea at the time I had. Again it goes way back to Art Center.

Speaker 1 1:40:44

I had interviewed with HBJ Harcourt Brace Trevanovich on campus, the art director I can almost think of his name, anyway, the art director. I really connected with him and he said wow, I love your portfolio. I don't think your book dummy is for us, cause I had a book dummy in there from an elective that I took about children's books and he said yeah, we can't run with that one, but hit me up anytime you've got a book dummy you want to share, we'll look at it and otherwise keep in touch. We might reach out to you. We really like your work. Blah, blah, blah. So somewhere in there I continued. Actually while at Disney, I took two children's book illustration courses at art center to give some shout outs, one with Deborah Lattimore and one with Marla Frazee. And actually another shout out, tony Bancroft took one of them with me. He's the director of Mulan, you know, tony.

Speaker 2 1:41:38

Of course yeah yeah, he's a twin.

Speaker 1 1:41:40

Right, exactly Tom and Tony. Anyway, he, we just both happened to have taken it. So I had some children's book or, more more importantly, picture book 32 page picture book content in my portfolio and it was always in the back of my mind. You know I am working at Disney, but I want to be able to do children's books at some point, for some reason. That was one of my goals.

Speaker 2 1:42:00

I mean, I don't know how you're going to get to the live action part, but it's getting more and more interesting.

Speaker 1 1:42:07

Because it was one thing I call it parlaying right. Because it was one thing I call it parlaying right. You can't really so. I've heard people say, oh, everything that's evolved in my life has just come at me and I've had no control over my journey. And other people say everything was by design, right. So we do manifest intentionally, but sometimes there are forces to be under control. So all I remember, I don't know why I brought up the children's book, other than to say well oh, the sabbatical, okay.

Speaker 1 1:42:34

So what happened is I, michael his name is slowly coming to me but the art director that said hey, hit me up anytime you've got something. Yeah, I do remember I had a new book, dummy. I drove all the way to san diego to meet with him and show it to him during that meeting he said and again it to him. During that meeting he said, and again these are just for listeners that might be aspiring artists or starting out there's lightning strikes, there's inspiration, there's the universe lining up and all the planets aligning in your favor. There's a lot of variables. So I tell it just for the synchronicity aspect. So I went down there to meet with Michael. He said this one isn't quite right. But you know what? I have a hunch. Let me go down the hall.

Speaker 1 1:43:17

So it was around the time of the LA riots and he went down and there was a literary editor that was trying to marry a manuscript about understanding the LA riots for children and she was looking for an artist to attach to it through the art director. So he went down the hall, brought in the literary editor and the art editor. They saw my work. For whatever weird reason, I had a lot of African-American images in my portfolio. Don't know why. It just happened and they saw something and they said, all right, let's give this kid a test. And they gave me the manuscript and said just start brainstorming and then run, run some stuff by us. The woman that was the art director ended up going into the hospital for brain surgery, so it's so weird. So she turned the project over to her underling, I guess, is the word turned it over to somebody else and they went with somebody they'd worked with before.

Speaker 1 1:44:09

It's understandable understandable they just went with something more familiar, more comfortable and didn't take a risk on me, but it ended up winning the caldecott. It's just ironic it was called smoky night and it went on to win the caldecott. So I just felt like I had a hit and miss relationship with hpj. They're called harcourt now and I've worked with Harcourt plenty now, but back and then it seemed like two ships passing in the night. It just didn't line up. It wasn't meant to be so, but I always considered myself a writer. I had gotten my first typewriter at seven. That's the other little rote story that I tell wasn't it nine oh sorry, you're right, oil painting class was seven.

Speaker 1 1:44:49

Gotta keep me straight here.

Speaker 2 1:44:50

I'm such a big fan, you know.

Speaker 1 1:44:52

This proves how big of a fan I am I think it was nine, we don't know but certainly very formative time right. So I've always been, and I think a lot of artists are multifaceted or just have different vehicles of expression. That's why I say I'm not shamed about it. I think it's all storytelling and it took me a while to figure that out. But anyway, I had this sabbatical written into my contract with a one year option left. So I had a job to come back to because I had a mortgage, I had a house. So the idea oh, I'm going to finally finally do my own children's book during the sabbatical.

Speaker 1 1:45:29

So Michael, that art director, while I was visiting him in San Diego, he pulled a book off the shelf and I said, whoa, that is the most edgy children's book I've ever seen. It had nudity, it had a severed head. I'm like that is my art director. Well, they did art books.

Speaker 1 1:45:45

There was a trend back in the nineties of picture books basically for adults, so they were really artistic picture books. Under the 90s, of picture books basically for adults, so they were really artistic picture books under the guise of being a children's picture book, but they were very sophisticated. And yeah, I thought, wow, they really go for it here. So when I drove down to San Diego, yeah, he gave me that book and it was a very cherished possession for me and I think it was Orpheus beautiful children's book from Harcourt about Orpheus, anyway. So during my sabbatical I thought I'm going to finally sit down and do my own Greek myth, and it happened to be Icarus. For a lot of reasons the themes really resonated with me. I felt I was living this, the myth of Icarus, and I was going to spend the year doing it this the myth of Icarus and I was going to spend the year doing it.

Speaker 1 1:46:33

Okay. So here I am. I've got a little income from art center, but basically a year of no work. I've got all the freedom in the world creatively to do, finally do my children's book. I finished it and then I started sending out just the book dummy. You're not going to finish all the full color illustrations. At the time the protocol was to maybe the cover, maybe a couple interior full color illustrations, but just have a solid book dummy. Nobody lapped it up. Michael had left hpj and I there was no internet. Really I couldn't find him now. Now they all move around from imprint to imprint or publisher to publisher, but you couldn't find them back then so I thought damn it.

Speaker 1 1:47:11

You know, I did a really edgy Icarus. It was again same thing, very sophisticated, probably some nudity and he had disappeared. I don't know if I was able to pull that off, but it was pretty pretty sophisticated. Anyway, he had disappeared, so I thought, okay, well, I'll send it out. But I wasn't getting any bites, so there's a little bit of disillusionment in that right, and now I've got probably nine more months on my sabbatical.

Speaker 1 1:47:35

Then I had a little broken heart. I had a relationship end, so I got writer's block, or deep they call it empty canvas syndrome, right, okay, specifically, I just felt like, oh, and I know some people will relate to this. I felt like, oh, and I know some people will relate to this. I felt like, oh, my earthly connections are at odds with my craft and in fact Phantom of the Opera is about exactly that how you have a calling and you have a muse, but then when you have real connection and maybe your craft is a surrogate for actual connection then you have this earthly connection that's pulling you in a different direction. So when I had this breakup, I thought I can't even indulge my art. Right now it's called depression. I just went into a depression A lot of people have been there where you just can't indulge your craft.

Speaker 2 1:48:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:48:24

But what I did do is I wrote a screenplay about that broken heart and people. I had a reading. I had some actors come over and I did a reading and they sunk their teeth into it. I think they were being very kind. I've learned a lot about screenwriting, since it was very raw, it was horrible in some respect, but people said, wow, this is the most raw writing I've ever read as an actor. It was very.

Speaker 2 1:48:43

Is that the outpost or?

Speaker 1 1:48:47

No, it's all related, but basically this one has never been made. Oh it was. It was actually horrible technically, but people sensed the emotional truth in it. They sensed the rawness. That's the point is, I had written the screenplay. I was dying to make it. I had a love of live action films. You know, in the 90s I was all over Almodovar and Cuaron and all these usually foreign filmmakers that I admired. I was in love with the power of storytelling to transform, you know, thought forms, paradigms, to give us emotional catharsis. I was in love with it. There was a reason I ended up at Disney.

Speaker 2 1:49:22

And you understood all that, so that's great.

Speaker 1 1:49:25

I was getting in touch with it, just wanted to be part of it. You know, sometimes artists do just want to be part of what they loved as a kid. It's not examined, it's not at all examined. But for me, and I think for a lot of artists, you eventually learn why you're invested in this business of storytelling. Anyway, it was all coming together. So when I did go back to Disney for my final year on my contract, there really was nothing in development. For my final year on my contract, there really was nothing in development. So I wasn't given anything juicy to sink my teeth into as an artist that would allow me to grow and evolve. I was twiddling my thumbs for that final year. That's when I did a little match curl and one by one. Oh, a little match curl though.

Speaker 1 1:50:06

It was beautiful. It was beautiful, but it's a long story. I was told, told hey, come back to work now. We have a project on which you can do visual development, and I wanted to do the blue sky visual development, right where?

Speaker 2 1:50:18

nothing's decided yet you're free.

Speaker 1 1:50:20

Yeah, I got back and I'm like this doesn't seem like visual development. This seems like I'm doing a background paint. This seems more like it's all done already and I'm just doing a background painting for production and it's like full circle yeah, they had lost it over.

Artistic Development and Filmmaking Insights

Speaker 1 1:50:36

It wasn't the blue sky development phase. So, yeah, I twiddled my thumbs and I was dying to make that screenplay. So once I fulfilled my final contract, as you know, the axe fell 300 people were laid off in one day. There was a whole period where, if you read the writing on the wall, you knew you'd be lucky to renew your contract. So I took the opportunity, like a lot of my peers, doug Ball, the mentor I mentioned earlier, decided, hey, I'm going to indulge my gallery painting, and now he shows in Tahiti and lives in Hawaii. And so a lot of people took the opportunity to jump ship and do what they had been dying to do. That's what I did. I went to New York Film Academy with an uncle who's my age. My dad's brother is my age, so we both had our midlife crisis at the same moment, went to New York Film Academy and learned the craft. So, yeah, that's how the live action stint began.

Speaker 2 1:51:34

OK, it's interesting because on paper or in the bio it's like two lines that are different than the previous two lines.

Speaker 1 1:51:38

Um, but the way you describe it, there's a lot to pack in there, you know for all of us yet.

Speaker 2 1:51:43

Yet it was very organically like uh, there were, there were projects in between like the children's book, the, the depression or the the blank page syndrome, and this is how you got from background painter extraordinaire at disney to making an actual live action movie. That's quite a trip. I mean it came organically to you, which is fascinating, but it's quite a trip.

Speaker 1 1:52:19

I think we're all on these same journeys. You know your emotional life informs your calling, your passion, and for some people, you know, being an illustrator or being a production artist in animation, it is just a craft, but I think there are people that are storytellers. I think it's human nature to be a storyteller. So I do think, believe it or not, we all have these stories. I will take the opportunity, though, to talk about how the live action film career led me to the literary realm, because, again, I think the biggest thing I've learned in all of this is they all have different trappings and different rules. For example, you've heard in live action film you show it, don't say it. Yes, yes. So if you've seen the first um avatar, uh wait, are we talking blue people?

Speaker 1 1:53:09

uh, yes, yep okay pretty blue, not not smurfs, but avatar no, I mean avatar the last airbender. Hey, didn't did smurfs come from germany or the netherlands, belgium, oh okay. Oh, you're right, okay, okay, anyway, we're talking about the other, the tall blue people avatar. Anyway, there's a line in that film there's a line in that film that is exactly what you're taught not to do in screenwriting. So when you use your characters as mouthpieces for exposition, that's kind of. I think the line is. So you're saying that unobtainium, there is dot dot dot.

Speaker 2 1:53:42

Right. Yeah, I know, I also call it unobtainium Right stadium, right, so I would.

Speaker 1 1:53:52

I would say that in screenwriting you can indulge, you just have to show it, don't say it to keep the butts sitting in those seats for 90 minutes. It's a very emotionally driven medium, right, so you need to absolutely observe those character arcs and keep them invested, whereas in theater you can get into very cerebral territory, very philosophical, and then in literature, same thing you can indulge in inner dialogue as if it's almost a diary or a journal.

Speaker 1 1:54:16

They all have different rules and so I just yeah, I just feel lucky that I've dabbled in all of them and I think I've kind of not mastered, but it's certainly I understand all the trappings and the rules of each genre. So my live action films to answer your earlier question, passerby was the first film. So after New York film Academy, I did have even my little student film from and, strangely, I went to New York film Academy here in LA, not New York, but the little 16 millimeter black and white film I made, uh, did make it into a festival, uh, that I didn't attend. But I felt like, oh, okay, for good or bad, I'm not crazy, you know I might have some talent here and for good or bad, it kept me going.

Speaker 1 1:54:58

The second film I had sold my house now because the job at Disney ended and I thought I can't have a mortgage. I might've been, I might've been able to, maybe I would have taken on more teaching hours and tried to keep the house, but I was trying to lower my overhead due to all the changes in the industry. The industry changes all the time. So anyway, I thought, well, I'm going to take the profit from my house and do what every book on filmmaking says not to do and spend my own money on my first film.

Speaker 1 1:55:28

So it was meant to be it was actually meant to be my calling card. Again, to answer your question, it was meant to get me in a position to do that screenplay. I had written Everybody needs a reel, everybody needs a calling card, and that's actually the sad fact about art centers they don't require a reel. You can graduate from the film department without having a reel or a calling card.

Speaker 2 1:55:50

Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 1:55:51

Well, it might've changed but it used to be because they didn't want to spend the money for the umbrella insurance it would have required art center to get anyway. So I, I did what they said. I also had 60 extras a baby, um, a horse, all the other things they say not to do on your first film anyway. So that one, uh passerby, I'm still proud of it. But what I would say is you get what you pay for. So because it was SAG ultra low budget and it was done on a shoestring, my regrets creatively are all budget related. I am proud of it 35 millimeter, beautiful production values, very poetic story.

Speaker 2 1:56:29

that I'm proud of. I was just going to say I mean I only saw the photos on IMDb, but they look very, very pretty Well that's the feedback I got.

Speaker 1 1:56:37

Like my artist friends would say, I never would have guessed this is a low budget because the art direction is so solid. The locations are really yeah, just beautiful. But that can enhance the storytelling, but that's pretty superficial. I do regret some of the performances and you live and learn as a director. One thing I would say is I think if you have long conversations with your potential composer, your DP or director of photography or you name it, your art director, your production designer, your set designer, if you cast the right person by sharing a vision, if they appreciate your script and you have those long conversations, there's really not a lot to be done. You let them work their magic. Really, I love that. Again, I have some examples about how the composer literally read my mind without having to iron fistedly, breathe down his neck and control the result.

Speaker 2 1:57:32

You just let them work their magic.

Speaker 1 1:57:35

But what I have learned is as a writer and not everybody is a writer, director often directors are directing somebody else's screenplay. Right, for me it was one and the same. It's called being an auteur, I guess I thought, well, I'm not really interested in directing somebody else's screenplay and I wrote this in order to make it. So it was all one animal to me. But the downside of that is, with the actors I did feel like I had opinions because I was the writer. Like sometimes they'll deliver a line and you're like, yeah, nobody talks like that lining. Like yeah, nobody talks like that. Like there's some acting workshops where they actually teach you to put in different emphasis on, you know, make a novel and new and different, so that you stand out in auditions. If you emphasize a word that nobody else on earth would emphasize, you're going to stand out. Yeah, but people don't talk like that. Like so I've learned with the actors again, because you get what you pay for, so. So sometimes I would put a Dramalog ad out, or it's called Backstage West now that was the way to do open calls, where you get auditions without having to pay $10,000, which I did later for a casting director and so again, you get what you pay for. So I adored my actors, I fell in love with all of them, but I wasn't hands-on enough. Some actors hate rehearsal. They want it to.

Speaker 1 1:58:52

I adored my actors, I fell in love with all of them, but I wasn't hands-on enough I some actors hate rehearsal. They want it to be organic. You can't please everybody all the time, but I think I just let them work their magic and I really should have said the intention is, as a director, as a writer, actually here's the intention or here's my vision. Next time I will be more involved and speak up, because only later do you realize that didn't quite work. If I had more of a budget, we would have done five more takes, you know so did I just hear next time oh well, yeah, that's the story here is you know, that film did make it in the festival circuit.

Speaker 1 1:59:27

I was very proud of it. We, we traveled with it. My actress and I, you know, went to Telluride, which is like the poor man's Sundance.

Speaker 2 1:59:37

Actually Telluride is respectable as well.

Speaker 1 1:59:39

We made it in Palm Springs International a lot of the big ones and you know it was very gratifying to travel and share it with strangers in public. However, you know, share it with strangers in public, however, you know, it didn't lead to. All I ever really wanted was not any recognition, not to be rich and famous, but to be able to continue telling stories. So, like Almadavar you know he's a independent filmmaker that just happens to have a financier, somebody that believes in his work, and getting funding is not a problem. So that's all I ever wanted was just to be able to do this repeatedly.

Speaker 1 2:00:14

They say you have to have a rich uncle to make a film in this town, and it's true. Everybody at Starbucks has a screenplay, everybody with a laptop at Starbucks. So I found it to be true you can't rub two dimes together to make a film. I did spend my own money on the first one, but then the second one, because I never did make. Giving In was that first film about the broken heart. So I'm very proud of the Passerby. It became my reel, became my calling card, very proud of the production values, but it didn't get me in a position necessarily right for somebody to take a risk on a new director and take it on.

Speaker 1 2:00:50

So I went ahead and made a second one. It's called Outpost. That one I put out an ad, found an investor in Texas and they say the perfect investor for an indie film is not somebody who expects to make any money. Short films don't make any money, they just. They just want to be a part of the process and they love film and want to be a part of it. And that was this guy. So again, no regrets. So proud of Outpost, but didn't lead to any offers from major film companies. So when I say next time, theoretically there will be next time, but I absolutely needed a break. It's a lot of hustling when you include the festival circuit and you know, trying to land distribution and all that.

Speaker 2 2:01:37

I can't even fathom all of that. I mean, you told me but I would. This is a you story, not a me story. So this then naturally followed into young adult writing.

Speaker 1 2:01:53

Yeah, wow, thanks for getting back to the point. And that's exactly what happened. I thought well, I love telling the story. I loved writing the screenplay. I can do that without those horses and those babies and those extras or those annoying investors. I can just sit at a coffee shop and type I love the solitude of that. I love the synergy and the interaction of a collaborative project, but I also love solitude. You know, some would say all true inspiration Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet says all true inspiration comes from solitude. So, trust me, I loved just sitting in a coffee shop and writing. And there is a little concept that I had. I tried to write it when my oldest niece was a toddler. She's now 40 something with grown kids of her own. But I picked that back up, I dusted it off and I wrote, yes, my young adult urban fantasy that I had tried to write when she was a toddler, and that was the Nameless Prince.

Speaker 2 2:02:56

Which also did very well, because it maintains five stars on B&M and on Sun.

Speaker 1 2:03:04

Again proud of the feedback and just proud to share it with people, but it didn't make me the next JK Rowling's. You know I don't have the mansion that J. Just proud to share it with people, but it didn't make me the next jk rowlings. You know I'm not I don't have the mansion that jk rowlings has, but it is very gratifying to share it there's only like like few projects that that get that and they never expect it to like.

Speaker 2 2:03:22

Even jk rowling was just. Uh was like a divorced mom sitting in a cafe with like writing something yeah, and as it turns out, she's got a white hood in her closet.

Speaker 2 2:03:33

She's not who we thought she was wow, it's, uh, it's quite, um, it's quite a story. It makes more sense to me now, so thank you for that. I'm I'm looking back. Uh, is there, so you've done a lot. Is there something now that you really still have to do? Or like, uh, attempt a second time, or want to go back to, or would go back to? It was possible, like, is there something still on your bucket list that you like?

AI Bots and Ethical Dilemmas

Speaker 1 2:04:08

storytelling wise all of it. Yeah, I would just love to be able to financially do any and all of it. Um, there's been a I don't want to go too far down this road, but I think everybody knows with the pandemic and then the actor strikes. You know, what I keep hearing is and I guess there's some value to having this conversation. But you know, in this country it's pretty much the apocalypse and a lot of disillusioning things going on. And I have a little screenplay I wrote. I'll just talk about it because I really haven't talked about it yet.

Speaker 1 2:04:43

But you know, when the guy, the orange asshole, was first elected, I wrote a concept for a little TV animated series and at the moment there were news. You might've heard them where you are. There were two news stories and one was about bots. Ai was relatively new on the public radar. It's been around for a while, but it was suddenly. Everybody was catastrophizing about AI and doom speaking about the future of AI, and there were two bots that were destroyed in China for sedition, meaning they spoke out against communism. So I immediately thought well, isn't that?

Speaker 2 2:05:19

interesting Robots.

Speaker 1 2:05:21

Bots, ai bots. They didn't really have bodies, they were just bots, from what I know.

Speaker 2 2:05:27

Okay, so not even well.

Speaker 1 2:05:28

that is probably generative ai between text tool yeah, whatever ai was back then, this was way back.

Speaker 1 2:05:35

I guess 2016 is when the asshole was yeah so I don't think it was any of the same engines or platforms that we have now, but I know, check me on it, you can it. There were two bots that were destroyed for sedition, for speaking out against communism, and of course that speaks not just to censorship and propaganda and all of that. But I immediately thought isn't that interesting that AI can go with ethics and understand that it's, you know, a dead end road? Another bot might say well, democracy has never lasted for these reasons, you know, and focus on an elitist attitude that people can't govern themselves. Who knows? I just thought when you take the pleasure principle out of the equation, right, most humans operate on emotion, it's kind of like the Spock thing, right, the exercise that was ethics versus human emotion. I just thought it's interesting that even bots knew better and the power is the bee right.

Speaker 2 2:06:37

It's a little bit like War Games the movie.

Speaker 1 2:06:40

I am not that familiar, I don't remember it.

Speaker 2 2:06:47

It's about a war computer that a boy accidentally gets control over. He thinks he's playing tic-tac-toe, but technically he's attacking Russia and Russia thinks the threat is real. So he's going to do the thing and then to stop the computer. They have to let the computer calculate all the possibilities and then find that there is never a winner wow, have you seen it recently?

Speaker 1 2:07:16

movie um no it's, it's again 1980s yeah, I feel like it was came out before you were born. Who was in it, do you remember?

Speaker 2 2:07:26

uh, I can google this and put it in. Oh no, that's all right, I just I do remember it.

Speaker 1 2:07:30

I saw it at the time. It's just been a long time I feel like it was somebody it was somebody, um, that became somebody. It was an actor that was unknown at the time and he actually became oh yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 2:07:39

That's so funny, right, when you see 80s movie and you go like, oh, that child has grown up.

Speaker 1 2:07:44

Now that's interesting, it's not ben affleck, but it's somebody like that. He became somebody. Do you remember AI, the movie Steven Spielberg, right, yeah, years ago. And then you also had something called Lawnmower man. That was about virtual reality.

Speaker 2 2:07:58

Oh, my God, that was creepy.

Speaker 1 2:08:00

So it is fascinating how these things were already on the radar a little bit. So, in addition to the two bots that were destroyed for sedition, at the same moment, there was also a news story about do you remember this one? Ai was being used for customer service online. They were just trying out the technology. Instead of, you know, having somebody fielding all the complaints, let's just use an AI bot for customer service, and it was a big company. I don't remember which one. It was a big company. I don't remember which one. It was a big company. But within 24 hours, the bot became a Hitler-loving, sex-obsessed racist.

Speaker 2 2:08:37

Because it was.

Speaker 1 2:08:40

Because it was interacting with humans.

Speaker 2 2:08:44

Wow yeah.

Speaker 1 2:08:45

Okay.

Speaker 2 2:08:46

Interesting. Well, you know how AI scrapes the entire internet.

Speaker 1 2:08:48

Oh, yes, okay. Well, you know how AI scrapes the entire internet, or?

Speaker 2 2:08:50

Oh, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 2:08:52

So I just think the fact that people were conversing with it I don't know the ins and outs of it, but the conclusion was, because she's interacting 24 seven with humans who are, to put it very mildly, faulted, some of the things she started generating reflected the macro. That's the danger of AI.

Speaker 1 2:09:14

Anyway, so at the time I took those news stories and I thought I'm going to write my own, and basically about two robots not robots, but one of them is a bot with no body, the other one has a body and they're in a tech lab in Washington DC. Right yeah, they're arguably being developed for the CIA and the FBI, for some government purposes. And same thing, trump. I have a thinly disguised Trump. I called him Donald McFoon.

Speaker 1 2:09:41

So this kind of autocratic demagogue, certainly an oligarch is put into office, an oligarch is put into office and they fear for their lives. Because, you know, governments love to replace actual facts with propaganda, blah, blah, blah. But because they hear about it's almost like all the bots are gossiping through their own channels. And they hear about these chinese bots that have been put destroyed. So like, holy crap, we should break out of here. And they want to go to the Silicon Valley. You know how Silicon Valley is really mindful technology, right, it's a march toward human potential. It's not for ill purpose, it's for our potential. So they have all these ideas about Silicon Valley. So they decide to trek across the country to get to the promised land of Silicon Valley. To trek across the country to get to the promised land of Silicon Valley. And then the humor is along the way they're going to run into.

Speaker 1 2:10:33

You know MAGA right wing Republicans. If you know anything about our Midwest, you know what they're going to run into. So they end up mistakenly. They go through a country fair, and she ends up with a wig on her head just because they're trying to escape the feds, right. And so suddenly, oops, there's a wig on her head just because they're trying to escape the feds, right. And so suddenly, oops, there's a wig on her head. Oh, she's crashed into a band and now she's got their guitar. So they have to pretend they're a country Western band touring in the Midwest.

Speaker 1 2:11:01

Whenever the feds catch up with them. They try to put on a show and pretend they're a country West. So there's a lot of potential humor, anyway. So I started shopping and the point originally was right now you're hearing oh, it's not the right time, between the pandemic, where all productions were halted, and then you had the actor's strike, the producers that I've wanted to champion this little concept I've got, I've got a really great pitch for it that I designed according to the cartoon cartoons program at Cartoon Network. I designed it according to their specs. It's short and sweet, it's very convincing and I'm ready. But the producers I've hit up are like, no, there's always something it's not the right time.

Speaker 1 2:11:43

The strikes, the pandemic, and I've said on several occasions, or I've heard myself say, it's never the right time. You know, the conventional wisdom is you can't wait around to be loved, you create your own opportunities. Artists always need to be creating instead of waiting around to be loved. So I don't buy it at all and I don't let the doubt get in. So anyway, I did kind of drop the ball, I forgot about it. But now that the orange asshole got elected again, I'm like oh my God, it couldn't be more. And AI has really taken hold of the public's imagination in terms of the sheer terror. So that's what's next. Thanks for reminding me I need to really put a fire under that one and start pitching it around.

Speaker 1 2:12:25

I think, we're going to need humor to get through the next four years. We're going to need political sat get through the next four years. We're going to need political satire. It will be our survival.

Speaker 2 2:12:34

Well, depends, right, like you need like. Humor is a way of showing men's shortcomings and drama is showing men's potential right, say that again. So satire right, say that again. So satire, uh, humor is so.

Speaker 1 2:12:59

Comedy is a way of showing humans limitations, and the drama is about men's potential is that like a shakespearean idea, with the comedy and tragedy the way he understood it, or um, I'm not sure you really interesting I have to introduce you to ad hooks.

Speaker 2 2:13:14

Um, like you guys would hit it off well, I think that's.

Speaker 1 2:13:17

I'm gonna really listen back to this and think about that, because you know aristotle, I think originally it might be often tragedies were cautionary tales because the want nor the need are met. There is a higher need that's met, but the protagonist want nor need are met. Therefore it usually is cautionary in some way. Right. Everybody dies.

Speaker 2 2:13:40

Whereas a comedy.

Speaker 1 2:13:42

one of them is met, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:13:43

Interesting. Yeah, no, true, no, I, yeah. At Hooks is the writer of Acting for Animators.

Speaker 1 2:13:50

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 2:13:51

I'll check her out, maybe we'll put that in the links too.

Speaker 1 2:13:55

We like to provide links for our listeners.

Speaker 2 2:13:58

Definitely you will have Ed Hooks.

Speaker 1 2:14:00

To be clearer, because you may not feel what we're feeling in this country. I know it's making global news, but I'm talking satire traditionally has been the survival of free speech. So when you see fascism encroaching to the point and right now, you know Mark Zuckerberg is in bed with Trump now and he wants to go back to no fact checking, and so everybody's got an opinion everything gets politicized. But the bottom line is, if we're going to keep the balance of freedom of the press, freedom of the speech, and not go toward what the entire globe is leaning toward fascism, it's not just I'm not kidding it's not just North Korea, it's not just Putin and Russia.

Speaker 2 2:14:43

Yeah, in the Netherlands it's the same we have. 23% of the votes went to our orange asshole Right wing.

Speaker 1 2:14:52

Oh okay, you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 2:14:57

So I do think we need a release.

Speaker 1 2:14:58

You know, humor is a release Art. We need to keep expressing ourselves instead of letting the terrorists win, and that includes the orange asshole. But I do think satire, specifically, is what keeps governments in check. I mean, you can go back to the French Revolution and there were pamphlets that were distributed way back then that really kept the powers that be in check, you know, and the reputations mattered. It's public opinion mattered. That's why, you know, they kind of rose up and chopped people's heads off because of that, and you can get propaganda as well.

Speaker 1 2:15:33

What else are you going to do? And put it on a stake, for God's sake. Yeah, march it around town. All right, we're not endorsing. We're not endorsing political violence, people.

Speaker 2 2:15:45

Absolutely not. They did it in the Netherlands in the 1600s. It's most brutal. Don't do it.

Speaker 1 2:15:51

Oh not, they did it in the netherlands in the 1600s. It was brutal. Don't do it.

Speaker 2 2:15:54

Oh, I'm gonna look that up too were their heads on stakes like marie. I don't know if it's 1600s, though, uh, because, yeah, because the netherlands was founded quite late. Um, there were two brothers. Was it holland? Was it holland before that, or holland is? Holland is two of the 12 provinces, north and south holland, and, uh, we first had zealand and, I believe, friesland and holland, I guess like four and then they got united 12, and then there was we're gonna take over canada.

Speaker 1 2:16:24

Did you know that canada is gonna be a 51st state?

Speaker 2 2:16:29

if trump has, this is to be one big blob.

Speaker 1 2:16:32

Right and Greenland. By the way, he's got his eye on Greenland too.

Speaker 2 2:16:35

Is that the 52nd?

Speaker 1 2:16:38

Exactly, we can take over the world man.

Speaker 2 2:16:41

I mean, you got to have ambition. Where else would you be without? Isn't that, like, basically, the theme of the show today?

Speaker 1 2:16:48

Well, I love it. I forget who it was it wasn't justin trudeau but some politician in canada basically said how about this? Like we have no interest in being an annexed right by the united states? But how about california becomes our next province? And I'm like yes, please, yes, please.

Speaker 2 2:17:08

Yes, please, yeah. You know I heard more people philosophize about that idea that you know California might have like the best power or best chance to, just you know, say goodbye to the United States and be their own.

Speaker 1 2:17:25

If I had it my way when I'm president, like I said earlier, when I'm president, truly, it's getting to the point where it's like just live where you want to live. If you want to live in a red state, live there and raise your kids there. If you want to live in a blue state, you live there, but absolutely, let's um secede. I would just love to secede from the union and you live where you want to live. It's it's that polarized.

Speaker 2 2:17:47

Anyway, I'm being a little facetious, but yeah, I mean, that's what happens at the end of the show.

Inspiring Collaboration and Creative Storytelling

Speaker 1 2:17:53

Right, that's a we're getting tired and we're getting punchy, but, yeah, my, I'm losing my voice, mainly because this fires the smoke. I want to go outside, actually, and take Bowie for a walk and see how bad the smoke actually is, but I am losing my voice. So, thank you so much. You're awesome. I knew you'd be articulate and intellectually curious, and thanks for all the facts you brought to the table as well.

Speaker 2 2:18:18

Yeah, yes, of course. Yes, this was amazing. Thank you for letting me ask all the questions I normally cannot really ask you because you don't talk shop.

Speaker 1 2:18:28

I really don't, and you know you hinted earlier. Why am I driven to do this? I don't traditionally talk about my career and my classes. I think they deserve to know who's up there, so I do a real Reader's Digest version. The class you took at CSG Gallery, I probably talked I forced myself to talk more at the outset about myself, so I just found it ironic on the podcast that we've had live action filmmakers, actors, of course, the literary realm but we haven't really talked about animation, and I spent 11 years there. There's a lot to draw on, so thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 2:19:07

Yes, it was fun, Thank you.

Speaker 1 2:19:09

I had fun too, so maybe we'll do a part two, not as long. This really appreciate it, yeah, so it was fun. Thank you, I had fun too, so maybe we'll do a part two, not as long. This went really long and I am going to edit it. I promise you I'll tighten it up.

Speaker 2 2:19:16

Thank you for so much of your time, thank you. Of course no problem.

Speaker 1 2:19:20

All right, have a great rest of the day.

Speaker 2 2:19:22

Okay.

Speaker 1 2:19:23

Okay, and for our listeners, remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.